Cowboy Bebop Remix [Endgame]

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Oh, I saw the invite. The fact that Grey and LLD took it without even trying to elaborate that much (particularly LLD) made me frown.

You're mistaking "lack of elaboration" with "I'm really tired, and I'll comment on all Sera's recent posts at a time when I can write clearly".

[Fate]

"When my mind is set, well, I'm wearin blinders! Nothing else matters."

Vote Count

Cogito Ergo Sum (0):
Vi (0):
Rhinox (0):
UncertainKitten (0):
Jahudo (1): Nachomamma
Lady Lambdadelta (1): Antitown
GreyICE (5): ToastyToast, Rhinox, Vi, CogitoES, Seraphim (L-2)
ToastyToast (1): Untrod Tripod
Antitown (0):
Kdub (0):
Untrod Tripod (1): Jahudo
Seraphim (4): Kdub, GreyICE, Ladyλδ, UncertainKitten
Nachomamma (0):

Not voting:
Trying to go against the flow of all things: Ladyλδ


With 13 alive it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline: Thursday March 24th

[Lady Lambdadelta]

SHIT.

SORRY FATE. ;_;

[Kdub]

Hmm...I didn't really expect Nacho's explanation of his LL vote to be what it was. The "I was fishing for reactions" routine seems legitimate here based on his explanation in 310. I had Nacho leaning slightly scum, but I feel better about him now.

Hey Kdub, is there anyone you actually want to see lynched right now?

Are you suggesting that my vote lacks conviction or that it is somehow not genuine? Otherwise I don't see the point of this question.

Seraphim's flip-flop on LL strikes me as him trying to bail out of a stalled wagon and onto the next viable one other than himself. Hmm...why does that sound familiar?

I'll probably have more tomorrow, need to sleep now though.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Why isn't GreyICE dead yet?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

Why isn't GreyICE dead yet?

First off, because he's town.

Secondly, because there's quite a few scum on his wagon.

Thirdly, because besides Vi, I have yet to see someone post a half legitimate case.

So, convince me differently of 1, by doing 3, won't you kindly CES?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

It's "would you kindly", trigger words are exact like that.

[Seraphim]

That's not completely true, Toasty is totally bussing his buddy, Grey.

LLD: who is scum with me?

[Lady Lambdadelta]

That's not completely true, Toasty is totally bussing his buddy, Grey.

LLD: who is scum with me?

Not saying anything to that effect at the moment, Sera. I'm keeping those cards held close. I have a good idea of who is scum with you though, based on your flip.

[Jahudo]

And I agree that Sera's speculation looks uncharacteristic, but I don't see how its suspicious.

Maybe Sera knows some inside information.

I think his talking looks innocent right now, not malicious or opportunistic in any way.

Why would you ever bring up something like the bolded up?

Because its possible I have inside information too, but I think its much more likely that I have flavor that is not meant to be read into. Maybe he's in a similar situation, I can only guess and feel that he is not scummy for bringing that stuff up.

[Kdub]

Mod: Is the vote count correct? Rhinox is listed twice.

Toasty:
Can you explain clearly why you suspect ICE? As far as I can tell, your case on him is mainly that he was wagon-hopping with little reasoning. However, at the point where you actually voted him, his only votes were an RVS vote on Rhinox, a vote on you, and a vote on Seraphim, whom you were suspicious of as well. Is that the extent of your suspicion?

I'm not feeling ICE as scum right now, partly because I think Seraphim is more likely to be scum, and partly because I'm not comfortable with the reasoning (or lack thereof) by the people on his wagon outside of Vi and maybe Rhinox.

[Rhinox]

Bandwagoning Lady - What's wrong with Rhinox?

pssst she thinks I'm seraphs scum partner and doesn't want me to know she knows...

Why, because she voted for you for a bit?

Haha.

That's me laughing.

Haha.

The laughter sounds nervous to me.

This shit just writes itself

I did find half of Rhinox's post to be invalid. The one on Gray, I mean.

Which half?

[GreyICE]

You'd think I'd be a bit more subtle about the whole "why not this guy tell" thing if I was scum, especially after doing it the first time.

Grey:
You attacked Toast, then switched to me as soon as you could.
You've been attacking me, but have almost entirely switched your focus to Vi, while keeping your vote on the viable wagon, me.
Now I'm attacking you again and we're(Vi and I) scumbuddies.

You've literally ceased to interest. Run up the pirate flag and claim scum in the thread, it's the only fucking way you could be

more

obvious.

My vote is sitting on scum. You. I'm working on your buddies because eventually people will wake up and this one will go to lynch.

[ToastyToast]

That's not completely true, Toasty is totally bussing his buddy, Grey.
LLD: who is scum with me?

I also totally was the first person to vote Grey. Its not really bussing if I started the case on him.

@Kdub: I'll put a summary case together in a sec.

[UncertainKitten]

@Rhinox: Please read the entire game before asking questions that have already been answered. Thank you ^-^.

[Rhinox]

@Rhinox: Please read the entire game before asking questions that have already been answered. Thank you ^-^.

says the person who admitted to not reading my entire post....

[Rhinox]

@Vi: GI explained. Rhinox was making a big thing of something OBVIOUSLY sarcastic. And spent half his post doing so.

which part is the obviously sarcastic part you are talking about?

[ToastyToast]

The thing that bugs me the most about GreyICE is how he passes everything off as "logical" when his posts have little of it. His defense for half his posts is "reason, which you don't have." This constant mention that he's allegedly good at making arguments isn't found in his posts, and he doesn't support his reads with facts. This posting habit makes me think GreyICE is trying to lead town with baseless information. This is a huge contrast to, say, UK, who is leading by asking questions rather than spouting new reads every so often.

Add that to his votes, but more importantly his sudden shifts in attention towards other players. He has only stayed on Seraphim because he realizes there's a chance for a lynch. When he saw that people weren't voting me, he moves to Seraphim. Ignore GreyICE's scum list, and these are the people he's called scum: Seraphim, Me, Jahudo, CES, Antitown, and Rhinox (says he's waffling on this one)

Jahudo's is important because he starts of by calling it a good lynch, then calls him town when Seraphim suspects him. He also places him in his town list. Where did this sudden switch come from? No telling from his posts.

CES and Antitown are easy targets because they've been lurking, but, really, doesn't Katsuki (of Antitown) always lurk? Not to mention the computer problems they mentioned. I've never played with CES, but the other players seem to be used to it. No one else has attacked him.

His focus has been on Seraphim for a majority of the game. This leads me to believe that if GreyICE is scum, Seraphim is town. Or vice-versa, but I'm in favor of a GreyICE lynch before a Seraphim one.

[UncertainKitten]

Yes, but I also didn't comment on it and ask questions that had already been answered.

Anyway, the whole big thing you made about GI's "gut read" that was CLEARLY not meant as a literal gut read.

You spent about half your post expounding that one.

[ToastyToast]

@UK: I'm not attacking the line in which he mocks my gut-read, if thats what your referring to. I'm attacking the many instances in which his votes come out of nowhere under the guise of being "logical."

And I used you as an example to show a difference. I don't consider you to be leading, but you are my strong town-read. You got that way because of all the questions.

[Rhinox]

Rhinox – Takes stances on the big discussions which is good, but he doesn’t say why he finds Grey worse than Sera. Most of his explanation part is about Lady, even though his attention is more on Grey right now. So I’m wondering why he finds Lady delusional and Grey scummy? Lean town.

Well, first ICE voted me for a stupid reason, and then next I hear anything from him I'm on his town list.

ICE's definition of waffling seems off - adding qualifiers is not waffling. IMO, he's turning a semantics argument into a REALLY BIG DEAL. And then when he actually gets into a conversation with seraph about it, he throws out the overdefensive wikitell because it was just an offhand comment.

One of these statements does not belong:

1: "Toasty: I have a gut read of my own. You're scum. It's a good gut read. Flavor mechanics, IoA, setup speculation, and more waffles than Jahudo."
2: "I operate on gut reads and change my mind a lot? News to me."
3: "Logic has no place in a game of Mafia my ASS. Logic is what I like to operate on."

ICE: didn't like LLD asking seraph to claim. Seems like a lack of conviction to me. Isn't that the same thing he was accusing seraph of in WAFFLEGATE2011?

"Nacho's vote was bad. So he's probably town. Wrong. But town."
vs.
"Logic is what I like to operate on."

.......

Then the godawful scum/town list. After looking at greyICE iso, I think ICE/toasty scum is looking pretty good right now:

"Toasty: I have a gut read of my own. You're scum. It's a good gut read. Flavor mechanics, IoA, setup speculation, and more waffles than Jahudo."
vs.
"Toasty - I really need to relook at some of these posts, I may be reading the situation wrong."

What changed?

And there is his posting style: answering questions with questions, asking himself rhetorical questions and then answering them, a sort of facade of having a cool arrogant swagger, and it all comes across as covering up scum insecurity, IMO. It comes across as, "I'm going to try to predict what someone is going to ask me next, ask myself, and then answer it before it gets asked." Like he's consciously thinking about things he might be accused of and nipping it in the bud before someone else brings it up. Example:

Rhinox: "You think the rest of the scum are in the lurker list?"
ICE: "Do I think all three scum are in that list of 6 people? Is this such a bad bet?

Am I married to the list and will never ever ever change my reads no matter what happens? No. But if my reads change from here on out there will be reasons for it."

This is more waffling than seraph ever did. I think the "Is that such a bad bet" is meant to imply that he does in fact think all the scum are in his list of 6 scum/null players. But then he throws the disclaimer on that he's not married to his list, which is the trying to predict the next accusation part I was talking about.


So yeah, this covers the why greyICE is scum part of the question jahudo. I'll cover the why LLD is moreso delusional than town in another post later on. I've been told I need to be more productive at work... >.>

UK, the bolded is where I talk about the gut read vs. ICE saying he doesn't operate on gut. I see now that it may have been a sarcastic comment that I didn't catch the first time. I'll gladly strike that from my post, but... It doesn't look like half my post was dedicated to expounding on that. Maybe 10-15% of it based on the amount of text bolded vs. not bolded, and no expounding, only presenting once. Is they're a reason you're strawmanning/misrepping me like this? What do you think of the rest of the points? Sorry its a long post, but if you're going to lambast me for not reading, I'd appreciate it if you'd take 30 seconds to read my post and give a complete opinion on all the points.

[ToastyToast]

O.o thought she was talking to me

[UncertainKitten]

@Toasty: I'm aware you aren't attacking his mockery of your gut read. That was at Rhinox.

@Rhinox:

Then the godawful scum/town list. After looking at greyICE iso, I think ICE/toasty scum is looking pretty good right now:

"Toasty: I have a gut read of my own. You're scum. It's a good gut read. Flavor mechanics, IoA, setup speculation, and more waffles than Jahudo."
vs.
"Toasty - I really need to relook at some of these posts, I may be reading the situation wrong."

What changed?

So we're ignoring this now?

Right now I have no strong opinion on Gray because I'm going to look for myself when I get a chance. Secondly, to strawman you I'd have to actively be trying to attack your points, as opposed to mentioning I didn't like half your post. I see no post of mine accusing you of being scum. Further, I see no misrepresentation on my part. You, quite frankly, just aren't a clear poster. You've elucidated a little now.

That said, why are you getting so defensive?

As for the rest of your points, I think you have fair reasoning in the second half of your post about answering questions before they're asked. Not certain if it's scummy, per se, but I can see where you'd think so.

The waffling thing prefacing the bolded isn't really amazingly useful for alignment detection.

The point about Logic vs. Nacho town also appears to be a non sequiter, and I think I was rolling it in with the sarcastic thing. My bad.

Anything else, Rhinox?

@Toasty: Context. It's your friend.

[GreyICE]

The thing that bugs me the most about GreyICE is how he passes everything off as "logical" when his posts have little of it. His defense for half his posts is "reason, which you don't have." This constant mention that he's allegedly good at making arguments isn't found in his posts, and he doesn't support his reads with facts. This posting habit makes me think GreyICE is trying to lead town with baseless information. This is a huge contrast to, say, UK, who is leading by asking questions rather than spouting new reads every so often.

Add that to his votes, but more importantly his sudden shifts in attention towards other players. He has only stayed on Seraphim because he realizes there's a chance for a lynch. When he saw that people weren't voting me, he moves to Seraphim. Ignore GreyICE's scum list, and these are the people he's called scum: Seraphim, Me, Jahudo, CES, Antitown, and Rhinox (says he's waffling on this one)

Jahudo's is important because he starts of by calling it a good lynch, then calls him town when Seraphim suspects him. He also places him in his town list. Where did this sudden switch come from? No telling from his posts.

CES and Antitown are easy targets because they've been lurking, but, really, doesn't Katsuki (of Antitown) always lurk? Not to mention the computer problems they mentioned. I've never played with CES, but the other players seem to be used to it. No one else has attacked him.

His focus has been on Seraphim for a majority of the game. This leads me to believe that if GreyICE is scum, Seraphim is town. Or vice-versa, but I'm in favor of a GreyICE lynch before a Seraphim one.

Um, wow. Talk about lying like a rug.

Seraphim - pretty fucking obvscum
You - Going back and forth
Jahudo - town
CES - either fucking terrible scum or fucking terrible town
Antitown - null, although lurking like fuck
Rhinox - town

Is it possible for you to be a tad more dishonest here?

[GreyICE]

Wait... you're in favor of lynching me... then if I flip town... lynching seraphim?

Unvote

Vote: ToastyToast

I fucking know I'm flipping town. And this is the first reason anyone has given me that Seraphim might. Holy fuck. FAILURE. It is a fucking option.