Newbie 792--Mafia Island ~ Mafia win!

[Papa Zito]

vote: Thesp

For the lulz.

To answer your question, I didn't exist yet because I had not yet begun to think.

Your turn.

Where did you get the questions from, and how did you determine which question to ask which player?

[Papa Zito]

Oh Yay...we have Papa Zito! Did you replace in Papa?

Yupyup. There was someone here that I wanted to play with again.

[Papa Zito]

I made up my questions, and arbitrarily chose players. I may come up with a standardized list of questions for players and arbitrarily assign those questions to players, but I fear then answers may become standardized, which would be unhelpful for detecting idiosyncracies, etc., it's sort of a vicious cycle.

The answers would probably only become standardized if you used the question set on the same group of people. Most players are too lazy to check history to see if you'd used the questions before and how they were answered before.

Come to think of it, someone copying a previous answer would be kinda suspicious to me. Maybe it would be valuable to use a standard set after all?

[Papa Zito]

What part of Texas are you from? (I grew up in Houston, and spent three excellent years in Dallas.)

Houston as well. Dallas is evil.

unvote

since there's no sense keeping this vote here. I'm starting to think we'll need a random bandwagon to get anywhere.

[Papa Zito]

Vote: Papa Zito

I don't think we should have a random bandwagon going on this early in the game.
If you give me a good reason to unvote then I will, but I don't have any better reasons to vote for anyone.

Random bandwagons are good for adding pressure. Adding pressure is good to ferret out info.

You can leave your vote on me if you want. A good reason to unvote me though would be to help the bandwagon along.

vote: Tracker

Post plz.

[Papa Zito]

Interesting. Random voting... sooo strange.

I'm used to playing with clues to find out who mafia (scum) are. So much for my clue analysis.

Random voting at the start of the game (often called the "Random Voting Stage" or RVS for short) is the standard method to generate those clues (typically called "tells" around here) when there's nothing else to go on. The theory is to randomly vote people to generate reactions and then analyze those reactions to see if anything sticks out. The overall purpose is to get discussion going.

That said, you don't have to place a random vote if you don't want to.

[Papa Zito]

Ah, no, nothing like that in the Newbie game format.

[Papa Zito]

Papa, what's your avatar from?

That would be Morpheus from Neil Gaiman's Sandman series.

Enjoy Seattle. I understand it's fantastic this time of year.

[Papa Zito]

So,

unvote

since tracker is leaving.

y halo thar Boxman.

Boxman, who's your scumbuddy?

If I remember correctly, it's this "Thesp" fellow.

So you've basically claimed scum here. Any reason we shouldn't string you up now?

[Papa Zito]

As to the meat of this post, I took that as a joke. This would be a very short game if the Scum came out so easily.

Oh dear. Mitey, why are you answering for Boxman?

[Papa Zito]

I'm starting to think we'll need a random bandwagon to get anywhere.

Why does it have to be random? (From some responses, I've already garnered at least one person whom I think is more likely to be town than scum. I suspect with a couple more questions, I'll get some more negative readings.) On that note...

You're doing better than I am, then. I'm a tad frustrated that I haven't gotten any real reads yet. Hence, random.

Random bandwagons are good for adding pressure. Adding pressure is good to ferret out info.

How useful do you think a random bandwagon is?

It's a tool. Tools are useful.

We could all massclaim instead? lulz I'm open to whatever gets this game moving.

[Papa Zito]

We could all massclaim instead? lulz I'm open to whatever gets this game moving.

what would that achieve?

...getting the game moving?

I've never been involved in a massclaim before, though I've read a couple games where that's happened. I've never seen it in a Newbie game. I wonder what would happen.

Anyway, I'm trying to convey that I'm unhappy with our current pace, and open to whatever will get us to a faster clip.

[Papa Zito]

Papa...I was just giving my take on the comment from Boxman. I wasn't answering for him at all.

ORLY? Because it sure looks like you said out a nice little excuse that he could just pick up and say "yeah this".

I think that it would be interesting to find out how many games (if any) we have all played. Could everyone please answer that?

I've only finished one. I'm dead in three other games that are ongoing at the moment.

[Papa Zito]

Papa...I was just giving my take on the comment from Boxman. I wasn't answering for him at all.

ORLY? Because it sure looks like you said out a nice little excuse that he could just pick up and say "yeah this".

Not to get all meta here but, you of all people know that I'm not fond of in thread coaching...that is what you are implying, is it not? And if I was to coach in thread, it would be far more subtle...again, you know this!

No, not implying coaching. Coaching would be more along the lines of "Well, if Boxman were scum, he would probably say something like x here." What you did is provide a defense for him.

In your opinion, which is more valuable:
- A player defending against an attack directly against him/her; or
- A player defending another player.

[Papa Zito]

Zito, that was a joke post. Thesp asked me a question and I saw an excellent opportunity for a little joke. That's all.

Heck, I thought it was a pretty obvious joke, considering Thesp's question left no room for me

not

to be Mafia...

Sure, sure, joke post. Sigh.

OR it was scum thumbing his nose at the town, amirite? One of those things where you can point back to it in the post game and say "I even TOLD you guys I was scum lol".

[Papa Zito]

Anyway, I'm trying to convey that I'm unhappy with our current pace, and open to whatever will get us to a faster clip.

I would love the game to be faster as well. [1]I'd love to be on here while people constantly post to distract me from the spiders procreating on top of my desk. Ewww...

However, I wouldn't want to do something which would ruin the game. [2]What I'm trying to say is that patience is a virtue, and we shouldn't be quick to do something stupid or mislynch just to move the game along. Unless you want to?

1. Spiders are cool. You should put up a book or something to give them some privacy. They probably get more action than you because you have more refined tastes. Quality over quantity right? Right? No? Oh.
2. That was a hugely scummy statement. I'm asking for more content and you insinuate I'm wanting to mislynch someone.

[Papa Zito]

Triple post! Note: I do this a lot to keep conversations separate. Makes it easy for people to go back and reference things.

In your opinion, which is more valuable:
- A player defending against an attack directly against him/her; or
- A player defending another player.

I think that they both have value. A player defending themselves...that is a big part of the game and if someone didn't defend themselves, well then, they're not really playing are they?
A player defending someone else...well, this could be considered buddying (or cuddling as I like to call it) or it could be pointing out something that the accuser did not see.

Both get the players talking and that is always a good thing!

First, arguing with Mitey sucks.

Second, help me see the value of defending? I'm missing it.

Also, you've hit on one concern, erm, cuddling. (lol) But you missed another, that of an experienced partner defending a less experienced one.

[Papa Zito]

First, arguing with Mitey sucks.

Second, help me see the value of defending? I'm missing it.

Also, you've hit on one concern, erm, cuddling. (lol) But you missed another, that of an experienced partner defending a less experienced one.

Yeah...I don't like fighting with you either my friend...but it's part of the fun of the game!

Defending (though I'm not sure that that is what I did here) could help to point out something that the accuser did not see. The joke part of his post seemed pretty obvious... You've played with me before, do you really think that if I were Scum with Boxman, that I would tip my hand this early and give us both away?

Sure, I know you wouldn't tip your hand. Of course, you'd know that I'd know you wouldn't tip your hand. Then again, I'd know that you'd know that I'd know that....

What's that called again?

Actually, I'm starting to agree with you on the defending bit, though it's value is not in the original target but in the defender.

[Papa Zito]

What I'm trying to say is that patience is a virtue, and we shouldn't be quick to do something stupid or mislynch just to move the game along. Unless you want to?

That was a hugely scummy statement. I'm asking for more content and you insinuate I'm wanting to mislynch someone.

[1]You weren’t asking for more content, you were asking for a quicker pace to the proceedings. They are different. A quicker pace would help the scum, allowing rapid and ill informed lynches. That we do not like.

However I was wrong to insinuate that you wanted to mislynch. [2]I was just saying that you shouldn’t ask for a more rapid pace, you turned it into an attack. Bit defensive aren’t we. The Unless you want to bit was half jokey anyway, I was hardly expecting you to say “Yes please darks I want to lynch a townie!”

[3]And finally, it is NOT a scummy statement. It is a cynical, possibly paranoid statement, as I assumed the worst about you. It was also as you have proved a misinformed statement. However it wasn't scummy per se.

1. Just to be absolutley clear: A quicker pace = more posts per player per day. It has nothing to do with how fast a lynch occurs. It has everything to do with generating more content. I'm all for using our full 3 weeks, but I'd rather we had 20 pages when we get there than 5.

2. You turned my desire for more posts into an attack. Hypocritical much?

3. It was a scummy statement because this whole game is about intent. When someone posts something, you have to analyze it to see what the intent was. Your intent seems to be painting me in the worst possible light. Am I saying you're scum? Not really, I'm not sure. Townies drop scum tells all the time too. But it's there.

The FoS thing seems like fun.

FoS: AGar

[Papa Zito]

Woo big post.

We could all massclaim instead? lulz I'm open to whatever gets this game moving.

how would this help the game at all?

It would probably get the game moving. Though that doesn't seem necessary anymore.

I've never been involved in a massclaim before,

1

though I've read a couple games where that's happened.

2

I've never seen it in a Newbie game. I wonder what would happen.

1)and what where the results? let me guess, all power roles lynched in the first few nights?

2)what do you think would happen?

1. In a couple cases it resulted in PR counter-claims, which helped the town narrow the field considerably.

2. Oh, probably everyone claims vanilla or something. The interesting part is who is chosen and that person's reaction tho.

First, arguing with Mitey sucks.

why?

Mitey and I were the scumpair in Newbie 762 (my first game) so it feels almost unnatural. lawl.

I am enjoying Darkstrike_11's presence in the game. Wickedstjr and Boxman, please don't nightkill him, it would make me sad.

how do you figure wicked as scum?

Why only interest in Wickedestjr?

i think that the pace is going along nicely

Agreed, I'm much happier now.

what's WIFOM? is like a paradox?

The little thing I did with Mitey earlier is an example of WIFOM.

You've played with me before, do you really think that if I were Scum with Boxman, that I would tip my hand this early and give us both away?

Sure, I know you wouldn't tip your hand. Of course, you'd know that I'd know you wouldn't tip your hand. Then again, I'd know that you'd know that I'd know that....

(I'm accusing Mitey of using a WIFOM defense here, btw) The idea is I could carry that little "I know that you know that I know that you know that" argument to infinity, rendering it meaningless.

i think everyone should post what they want to get out of this game,

i think everyone should post what they hope to get out of this game. i'll go first

all i want to do here is gain experience, and learn how to better my game, and maybe figure out some "tells"

In my last newbie game I was town and I played really really terribly. (The other two I was NKed the first night and don't count, heh) I'm hoping to turn that around in this one.

[Papa Zito]

vote: Wickedestjr

[Papa Zito]

1. Just to be absolutley clear: A quicker pace = more posts per player per day. It has nothing to do with how fast a lynch occurs. It has everything to do with generating more content. I'm all for using our full 3 weeks, but I'd rather we had 20 pages when we get there than 5.

I appreciate the sentiment, but I will probably cry if it takes us 20 pages to lynch. At the pace we're going, hopefully we won't need the full three weeks. (I strongly believe there's a point of diminishing returns on content.)

20 was an arbitrary number, but I see your point. And I agree, I doubt we'll need the full 3 weeks. Besides, we wouldn't want you to be sad.

@Papa Zito, why did you think I was serious in my answer to Thesp's question?

I didn't.

@Papa Zito any reason for your vote on wicked?

Yes.

@Papa Zito - Even if you are voting me to pressure me, can you still please say why you are voting me.

Just a hunch, really.

[Papa Zito]

Papa Zito

[1]How did you get your hunch about wicked? Was it his general posts? his voting patterns? [2]I don't like "hunches" because they base too much on the tone of posts rather than the content and also get the user out of having to explain his vote.
[3]Final question for you, are there any players who you think are definately town?

1. His posts 4 and 5 (read in isolation) rubbed me the wrong way, though I can't quantify why (hence the hunch). His post 12 has helped confirm the hunch. I also don't like that he's not giving opinions on anything, just asking lots of questions.

2. I agree, I typically don't work on hunches either. This is uncomfortable territory, but I'm having a tough time getting a handle on the game.

3. So far I like what you and Thesp have done. The only definite town in the game is myself though.

[Papa Zito]

For this game, I'm experimenting with a new style; unless there is something coming up, or if the circumstances force me to do so, I will only attempt to answer every question that is directed at me.

Currently, this post has me a little irked:

Anyway, I'm trying to convey that I'm unhappy with our current pace, and open to whatever will get us to a faster clip.

It's just a hunch, but it could be scum wishing the town be over-enthusiastic and mis-lynch someone.

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt (for some reason) and assume you didn't read 76.

[Papa Zito]

Oh lol. Please read the game, people. Here, I'll do the heavy lifting for you.

Anyway, I'm trying to convey that I'm unhappy with our current pace, and open to whatever will get us to a faster clip.

I would love the game to be faster as well. I'd love to be on here while people constantly post to distract me from the spiders procreating on top of my desk. Ewww...

2. That was a hugely scummy statement. I'm asking for more content and you insinuate I'm wanting to mislynch someone.

You weren’t asking for more content, you were asking for a quicker pace to the proceedings. They are different. A quicker pace would help the scum, allowing rapid and ill informed lynches. That we do not like.

1. Just to be absolutley clear: A quicker pace = more posts per player per day. It has nothing to do with how fast a lynch occurs. It has everything to do with generating more content. I'm all for using our full 3 weeks, but I'd rather we had 20 pages when we get there than 5.

I appreciate the sentiment, but I will probably cry if it takes us 20 pages to lynch. At the pace we're going, hopefully we won't need the full three weeks. (I strongly believe there's a point of diminishing returns on content.)

20 was an arbitrary number, but I see your point. And I agree, I doubt we'll need the full 3 weeks. Besides, we wouldn't want you to be sad.

/annoyance

[Papa Zito]

Well, Papa Zito the main reason why I am not giving many oppinions is because I don't really see tanything to give my opinion about. But I did give you my oppinion on why I thought you seemed scummy and earlier I am pretty sure I gave my opinion on Darkstrike_11 as well. Did you not like these opinions?

No.

I think it's time to do a PBPA.


Post 1: /confirm
Post 2: Random vote. I remember this post pinged at the time though... you're parroting Thesp's question style.
Post 3: Votes me for the random bandwagon suggestion. I'm cool with this vote.
Post 4: Unvotes, re-prods Tracker.
Post 5: Series of questions.
Post 6: Wasn't aware Mafia could talk outside the thread????
Post 7: Votes Darkstrike_11. This is a bad vote, and no, no opinion is shared here.
Post 8: "I'm making observations"
Post 9: "@Darkside_11 - Glad we have an understanding, however, I am not unvoting until either you give me a good reason to, or somebody else turns out to be more likely to be scum."
Post 10: Defense
Post 11: Defense
Post 12: I can't do anything about the PZ vote
Post 13: Votes me again, even though this had already been discussed
Post 14: Quoted above.

You haven't given opinions on

anyone

. You're playing very carefully, aka very scummily, and I'm very happy with my vote.

[Papa Zito]

I think you could be mafia trying to figure out who the power roles are.

Umm... This is an opinion isn't it?

Also, where has your random bandwagon suggestion been discussed? I do not remember this?

Was that it? "I think you could be" is the weakest opinion ever. Oh, and you didn't point out the Darkstrike_11 opinion.

Oh, now I see where you responded to my previous vote against you. That still doesn't explain why you suddenly say;

"I doubt we'll need the full 3 weeks."

This doesn't seem like it goes with your post where you were eager to get the game moving.

1. Just to be absolutley clear: A quicker pace = more posts per player per day. It has nothing to do with how fast a lynch occurs. It has everything to do with generating more content.

I'm all for using our full 3 weeks,

but I'd rather we had 20 pages when we get there than 5.

20 was an arbitrary number, but I see your point.

And I agree, I doubt we'll need the full 3 weeks.

Besides, we wouldn't want you to be sad.

There is no contradiction here. You're just flailing.

[Papa Zito]

I don't find the back and forth between Papa Zito and wickedestjr to be very interesting.

It isn't.

I'd much rather lynch AGar.

This, however, is.

Wickedstjr and Boxman, please don't nightkill him, it would make me sad.

What changed since Friday?

[Papa Zito]

Wickedstjr and Boxman, please don't nightkill him, it would make me sad.

What changed since Friday?

My seriousness.

So Wickedestjr and Boxman are town, and AGar is scum?

[Papa Zito]

The lack of activity here is making me a sad panda.

[Papa Zito]

So Wickedestjr and Boxman are town, and AGar is scum?

I wouldn't stipulate to the former, but I do indeed subscribe to the latter.

This reminds me of those old Sierra games. Or even better, the old command-line ones, like Adventure and Zork. Remember those?

Code: Select all

You are in a small room.  A TABLE sits squarely in the middle.  Upon the table are TWO KEYS.  There is an exit to the north and south.
>north
The door is closed.
>open door
The door is locked.
>get key
Which one?
>get a key
Do you mean the BLUE key or the RED key?
>get blue key
You are not close enough.
>walk to key
You can't walk to that.
>walk to table
You are standing next to the table.
>get blue key
Taken.
>open door
The door is locked.
>unlock door
With what?
>unlock door with key
Do you mean the BLUE key or the RED key?
>unlock door with blue key
You aren't close enough.
>walk to door
Do you mean the NORTH door or the SOUTH door?
>walk to north door
You are standing next to the northern door.
>unlock north door
With what?
>unlock north door with blue key
The door is now unlocked.
>north
The door is closed.
>alsdk;rja;sdklf
I'm sorry, I don't recognize 'alsdk;rja;sdklf'

I agree AGar is likely scum, but it'd be great if you could spell out your thought process without me having to drag it out piece by piece. Thx.

[Papa Zito]

I think Thesp is forgetting that this is a newbie game.

[Papa Zito]

Papa Zito's Player-by-Player #1

AGar - Notta. Zero. Nothing.
Boxman - Jokingly claimed scum. (lulz) Has been casually following the crowd.
Darkstrike_11 - Has prodded several people. Townish vibe.
Indigo Heron - Self-announced lurker.
MiteyMouse - Didn't like the Boxman defense, or the WIFOM defense.
Thesp - Townish read. Problem is I'm completely outclassed here.
tracker - On vacation, apparently.
Wickedestjr - Attacks on me were terrible.

This sucks. I have too many scummy reads.

unvote

vote: AGar

Wake up, plz.

[Papa Zito]

FoS: AGar and Boxman

They are both going with the flow, and aren't contributing. I don't like this.

Dude, it's Day 1. It's too early to bus.

[Papa Zito]

Thesp - Townish read. Problem is I'm completely outclassed here.

exactly. I don't know what to do with Thesp. Sure I get a townie vibe from him, but he's so experienced that I doubt I would ever get a scummy vibe from him :/

I'm flattered!

If you're scum, we're screwed. Just sayin.

[Papa Zito]

Papa

Zita

(1): Wickedstjr

lol

[Papa Zito]

we need more people to post more, this game is really slow, i was expecting to have to read quite a bit more than i did.

QFT

He seems to like quick games

and is a better player than most newbies.

(emphasis mine) Very sly, Mitey. Haven't we beaten this dead horse enough?

Darkstrike_11 vote is a good one. Wickedestjr is trying to look townie by asking questions again.

[Papa Zito]

QTF? what does that mean?

QFT = Quoted For Truth. In other words, I'm agreeing with you.

[Papa Zito]

Hmm.

Indigo, what's your view on AGar?

[Papa Zito]

And the fifth votecount:

tracker(1): Indigo Heron

Wickedestjr(1): Mitey Mouse

Agar(1): Papa Zito

Popo Zito(1): Wickedstjr

Indigo Heron (1): Darkstrike

^^ This vote distribution is horrible. And the mod's messing with me on purpose now. XD

The following people need to place a vote:

• Boxman
  
• AGar
  
• tracker
  
• Thesp

You should not be shy of voting since there's absolutely nobody in danger of getting lynched.

MOD: When is deadline?

[Papa Zito]

Just noticed this, as I was reviewing Dark's post:

29. does a player by player, says he has nothing on Agar so votes him

The original:

AGar - Notta. Zero. Nothing.

I see how this was misinterpreted. "Notta. Zero. Nothing." is AGar's grand sum total contribution to the game. My interpretation of this is that he's lurking scum.

P.S. Well done on that post. That obviously took a lot of work.

[Papa Zito]

Now we're getting somewhere.

[Papa Zito]

Papa zito, why did you vote for me, just out of curiosity?

5 posts up.

Scum don't bother to read the thread since they already know who is town.

That said, I am further convinced Papa zito is scum. You didn't wait for an argument, you just said "I'm going to vote for him", in my eyes because it takes the heat off of you. I think I'm finally ready to cast my vote.

Vote: Papa Zito

This is just OMGUS.

1. There's no heat on me. I didn't have any votes.
2. Thesp explained his vote earlier. Again, lack of reading the thread is fail.
3. Why wouldn't you vote for Thesp if you didn't like his vote?

But hey, at least you posted something.

[Papa Zito]

*raises eyebrow*

And how is that scum-ish? You're basing this on the hypothetical that I was inactive until yesterday.

How is your behavior town?

[Papa Zito]

unvote
vote: Indigo Heron

That's L-1. Do something useful.

[Papa Zito]

^^Goldmine post.

1. Scum already know which two setups are valid, by either being two goons or a goon and a roleblocker. So fail on that point.
2. Breadcrumbs can just as easily be left by scum for a future claim.
3. Soft claiming sucks.
4. You're admitting to playing anti-town on purpose.
5. Setting up future lynches is bad bad bad.

[Papa Zito]

Papa Zito, do you intend to counter-claim me?

Hmm. This question is puzzling.

[Papa Zito]

unvote

I can't justify lynching a claimed cop on Day 1. I'm looking forward to your results tomorrow tho. Also hopefully now that you're "outted" you'll start contributing.

I'll echo Dark's question to everyone else. This is our first major development and everyone needs to weigh in.

Oh yeah.

vote: AGar

[Papa Zito]

Papa Zito, do you intend to counter-claim me?

Hmm. This question is puzzling.

You imply that I am lying. Normally, a contested hard claim is followed by a counter-claim in the event that the hard claim is in doubt (in my experience, any claim that isn't immediately contested, especially in Newbie games, results in you being lynched, apparently, the pro-town roles can't lay low a little longer and be incognito until it is necessary).

I'm puzzled by your question, and that it was directed at me. To me your question implies that you think I'm the real cop and you want me to counter to verify this. I can't think of another reason why you'd ask it, and I can't think of a town reason for it either. I wanted to think on it more before I brought it up in the thread tho.

You know...the moderator has never specified what the format was (whether it was C9, or some other kind). All he just said was the roles (Roleblocker, Goon, Cop, Doctor and Townie). How would you know the scum set-up? Same goes for you, Darkstrike.

All newbie games are F11 setups.

Game 792:

Setup

: F11

Moderator:

Khelvaster (backup Mod: Yaw)

Current Update:

Day 1
Darkstrike_11
Papa Zito (replaced Macronaso)
Boxman
AGar
tracker
Wickedestjr
Mitey Mouse
Indigo Heron
Thesp

F11s have four possible variations:

It consists of four variations, chosen at random (the name comes from the binary expression of these four options, similar to C9):
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 1 Sane Cop, 1 Doctor, 5 Townies.
1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Roleblocker, 7 Townies.
2 Mafia Goons, 1 Sane Cop, 6 Townies.
2 Mafia Goons, 1 Doctor, 6 Townies.

Since the Mafia know if they are two goons or a goon and a roleblocker, they start the game knowing that two of the four aren't possible.

You are right that the setup isn't explicitly stated so I'm willing to believe you on this point.

[Papa Zito]

ok, i'm back, give me a moment to read over the thread before i post to much. is there anything anyone wants me to comment on in particular or any questions that need answering? not sure where i left off reading and i wouldn't want to miss anything important .

Nope, nothing.

Oh wait no Indigo Heron claimed cop.

And AGar is likely scum.

Have at it.

[Papa Zito]

stoofer's first law?

I had to wiki this when he mentioned it.

In a C9 game, if a pro-town player is lynched on day 1, both scum were probably on the lynch.

Of course, we're not in a C9 game.

papa - though i agree with you to an extent about agar's scummyness isn't asking people to back you up on it also suspicious?

I don't recall asking anyone to back me up on it. Even still, I'd say no. If I think someone is a shady character, and I truly think that person should be lynched, wouldn't I

have

to try to convince people to join me? You know, the whole voting thing.

also mod in you last vote count i do believe that you spelled papa zito's name wrong,

It's a running gag thing now. I think. lawl

[Papa Zito]

@Papa Zito - How suspicious of boxman are you?

He's contributed just about the same amount as AGar, so he's high on my list.

BTW if I'm one of your top suspects, why not post a case on me and see what the rest of the town thinks?

[Papa Zito]

BTW if I'm one of your top suspects, why not post a case on me and see what the rest of the town thinks?

papa, could you present your case on agar please?

My case on AGar is that he hasn't done a damn thing to help the town, and my belief is that anti-town elements should always be eliminated. His big post earlier is a great example of what scum like to do. He put out a bunch of information, and he analyzed the situation at hand, but did he ever come to a conclusion on Indigo's alignment? No. Has he ever come to a conclusion on anyone's alignment? No, except his OMGUS on me (which he never denied). Has he ever done any scumhunting in an effort to help the town win? No.

Your analysis of the Indigo-is-scum scenario is correct. Claiming cop is the correct play for scum in Indigo's position.

Keep in mind that the stuff in the wiki is just a guide, and shouldn't always be followed. Though I'm a proponent of LAL.

[Papa Zito]

That votecount is wrong, this is what I make the real votecount to be:

Agar(3): Thesp, Papa Zit

i

, Boxman
Wickedestjr(1): Mitey Mouse
Boxman (1): Darkstrike_11

Fixed.

Hey Dark, are you dead-set on Box over AGar?

Incidentally, I'm liking Indigo a lot more now that he's posting.

Papa Ziti's Big Three

1. AGar/Wickedestjr
2. Boxman/Wickedestjr
3. AGar/Boxman

[Papa Zito]

I'm not hugely set. I think he's the scummiest, but am willing to be changed!

I agree with your big three, although I tend to favour AGar/Boxman as the scum pair.

I just read Box in iso and I think I'm seeing what you're seeing now. I'll post it later, but first -

@Thesp: Your thoughts on Box plz?
@Wickedestjr: Your thoughts on AGar plox?
@Mitey: Your thoughts on both, uh, please?

[Papa Zito]

Boxman's PBPA!

Brought to you by Papa Ziti's House of Pasta

[mrow]Iso Post # [col]Post Summary [col]Comments http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 87#1696467 [col]

confirm post

[col]

Ok.

1 [col]

Banter

[col]

Yah

2 [col]

Banter

[col]

Rite.

3 [col]

#1 was just a joke!

[col]

Response to my probe about saying Thesp was his partner.

4 [col]

Woe is me

[col]

Some argue that "Why me?" is a scumtell.

5 [col]

Question series; wickedestjr vote; FoS AGar

[col]

Here's where the meat starts. The question series thing is stolen from Thesp. The Wicked vote came three posts after my Wicked vote. The AGar FoS came 9 posts after my AGar FoS. He didn't post between those.

6 [col]

"He's at L-1? Crap!

Unvote

"

[col]

This pinged when I first read it. You should know if the guy you're voting is at L-2 or not. I think this was a gambit to look more townie.

7 [col]

#4 was just pressure

[col]

Then why remove it?

8 [col]

#4 was to get a reaction

[col]

Ditto.

9 [col]

"Easy for you to say NOW."

[col]

Sarcasm at Wicked actually answering the question. Null.

10 [col]

Wickedestjr was random; nobody is scummy yet

[col]

This pinged too. My problem is that too many of you people look like scum to me, yet he has zero suspects? Really? Staying neutral on people is a good way to operate as scum.

11 [col]

I get you Thesp

[col]

Smells like

teen spirit

buddying.

12 [col]

Quiet until "something exciting happens"; FoS Indigo Heron for lurking

[col]

Is still quiet, even after the whole Indigo fiasco. FoS was 6 posts after Dark's vote, for the exact same reason.

13 [col]

votes Indigo Heron

[col]

This is 6 posts after Dark's massive PBPA which announced Indigo as scum.

14 [col]

unvotes Indigo (uncountered cop claim); votes AGar (lurker)

[col]

Unvotes and votes 10 posts after mine for the exact same reasons

15 [col]

"Something like

what

hanging over my head?"

[col]

Response to Indigo probe.

16 [col]

AGar is most suspicious because he's a lurker

[col]

Hypocritical much?

17 [col]

No one else is suspicious other than the cop; PZ, dark and Thesp have been "useful"; Wick, tracker and Mitey haven't been suspicious

[col]

Here he names the three people he's been following. P.S. if Box is lynched and flips scum then look very very carefully at the three he names as "not suspicious".

[Papa Zito]

Good PBPA, ziti. Enogh to win your vote? Or is agar still more scummy for you?

Yeah, I voted in the image.

I'm seeing Box > AGar at the moment. They both have done nil to help the town but Box's follow-the-leader and his oops vote make him more scummy in my eyes.

1. Boxman
2. AGar
3. Wickedestjr
4. MiteyMouse

Like I said, too many suspects. But I'd really like to see Box lynched today.

[Papa Zito]

You can't see the image? Stupid Google.

I did some stuff, hopefully that fixes it.

I'd like Agar and Wicked's views on Boxman as soon as possible please!

Ditto. I'd like Mitey's opinion on them too.

[Papa Zito]

@Darkstrike: You don't visit a pasta house simply because it sounds good....

We make a fantastic vegetarian lasagna.

@Papa...[1]I'm really reluctant to think in pairs before one person flips Scum. I have started a new strategy in the las little while and that is to look at more who I think is most likely Town as opposed to who is most likely Scum. Unless, something very Anti-Town jumps out at me. I'm not sure how successful it will be in a small game like this but, [2]right now, out of 9 of us, there are 4 that I think arre more likely Town than Scum.

1. You're correct. I shouldn't be doing that either. My bad.
2. So you have 5 suspects. You've named three. Who are the others?

[Papa Zito]

Groovie. You know, having you in two games is going to get confusing. heh

Waiting on Box to respond to my giant yellow table of doom...

[Papa Zito]

hmmm... i just thought of something, this game is starting to split itself into some groups, suspected scum and accusers

under the suspected theirs

Wicked, Mitey, Agar, and Box

under the accusers are

Papa, Dark, Indigo, and Thesp

what to do with this i'm not sure yet

I saw that too, and I'm not sure what it means either.

[Papa Zito]

BTW: loved the image Papa :p

Oh sweet it's working now.

[Papa Zito]

^^^ Box is at L-1.

Box, claim please.

[Papa Zito]

Unvote: Boxman

Sorry, I was unaware of the vote count. Please don't claim boxman.

@Papa Zito - Wth? Why would you want a second player to say their role? Personally I would rather finish this day without letting mafia know all the power roles.

What a fascinating post.

[Papa Zito]

Wickedestjr's panicked unvote looks like scum trying not to get his partner killed.

That said, I still believe Box is the best lynch today.

[Papa Zito]

Guys, we're supposed to be voting Boxman here.

Don't tell me I made that big ass yellow table for nothing.

[Papa Zito]

^^^ WIFOM defense. Also, voting your partner is called bussing and it's standard mafia operating procedure. Also also lol@voting Box once people unvoted him.

Looking forward to hearing Dark's take.

@Thesp: I don't think you're going to get any traction on Mitey today. There's not enough time.

I think a Box lynch will give us more info than a Wicked lynch but I'll swing over if necessary.

[Papa Zito]

Wickedestjr is at L-1 if my calculations are correct.

Wickedestjr: Mitey Mouse, Indigo Heron, Darkstrike_11, tracker

@papa, why will a box lynch tell us more than a wicked lynch?

Box has tied himself to Wicked, but not the other way around. I think a Box lynch would tell us a lot about Wicked, but a Wicked lynch won't tell us as much about Box.

Actually, wait, no, I take that back. Wicked's unvote earlier ties him back. Forget that. I'm cool with either one.

@Wicked: I'm fully willing to drop the hammer on you. Claim please.

[Papa Zito]

For what it's worth, I'm finding this game tremendously compelling, even if I am having a hard time figuring out who MiteyMouse's scumbuddy is. I'll see if I can look a little closer tonight.

We're going to have to talk about Mitey tomorrow. You know, if I'm alive and all. She's a distant 4th for me and that's the second time you've definitely labelled her scum.

P.S. Still waiting for Box to respond to this mess.

[Papa Zito]

*Processing*

[Papa Zito]

Okay, so basically what it comes down to is that a Wicked lynch is less risky because he's either vanilla or scum. So there's that.

I still think we should go with Box.

[Papa Zito]

Okay, so basically what it comes down to is that a Wicked lynch is less risky because he's either vanilla or scum. So there's that.

I still think we should go with Box.

What is more compelling for Box as opposed to Wicked Papa?

My big yellow table.

[Papa Zito]

I still think on some level that wicked could be easily swayed town.

????

[Papa Zito]

Just a reminder: Deadline is in 3 days. We should come to a consensus before then.

[Papa Zito]

I've been reading the topic again, and I still think that a wicked lynch is better than a boxman lynch. However, boxman being lynched isn't that far off, so I'll make my decision and post in a few hours.

Share your reasoning on Wicked > Box?

[Papa Zito]

Actually I did too. I guess he doesn't count image votes.

[Papa Zito]

Tracker? Huh.

First things first. Do we have a cop counterclaim?

[Papa Zito]

Oh, another thing. Indigo, who did you investigate and what was the result?

[Papa Zito]

I did get a result. Why shouldn't I claim it yet?

Wait.

You survived the night

and

you weren't roleblocked?

[Papa Zito]

It may change things. I need to chew this over.

[Papa Zito]

I don't want to proceed much further until everyone else has claimed to be not the cop.

This is really important, because if another player claims cop, and the town doesn't lie, we win now.

I am not the cop.

^^Correct.

I am not the cop.

[Papa Zito]

Wait.

You survived the night

and

you weren't roleblocked?

I understand the scepticism Papa but, this looks a bit like you are trying to cast some doubt on IH. Him being alive already puts suspicion on him but, it is WiFoM because the Scum could have kept him alive and not roleblocked him (if he is Town) to cast suspicion on him.

I am not the Cop.

Yes, this is what I'm chewing over. I'm debating how likely a scenario that is.

Scenario A:

Indigo is a Goon. He didn't get counterclaimed, so he figures there's no Cop. He doesn't know if a Doc is lurking, so he makes his best guess and kills tracker. This is plausible.

Scenario B:

Indigo is a Roleblocker. He didn't get counterclaimed, so he figures there are no power roles and kills tracker randomly. This is highly unlikely since there are better candidates (no offense tracker).

Scenario C:

Indigo is the cop. The remaining scum is a Goon. The Goon can't roleblock Indigo but decides not to kill him in order to frame him. He kills tracker randomly. I find this unlikely, again because there are better candidates.

Scenario D:

Indigo is the cop. The remaining scum is a Roleblocker. The Roleblocker chooses not to block Indigo

and

decides not to kill him in order to frame him. The Roleblocker knows there's a Doc also lurking about and so takes a guess and kills tracker. This is plausible. I don't say it's probable because the Roleblocker could have blocked him and said he was lying about his lack of result. Leaving Indigo unblocked was a huge risk.

Honestly I'm 50/50 on A and D. We need AGar and Wicked to get here and finish up the counterclaim business so we can move on.

[Papa Zito]

If you got a guilty, post now. Otherwise save it for later.

[Papa Zito]

@Papa Zico: You forgot scenario E: The remaining mafia member does not believe that I am a cop, just a desperate town player, and hence assassinates someone else, keeping in the game a player whose role is doubtful to the town and a pretty good choice for a lynch on D2.

Hmm. That's a good one also. And yeah, I'm saying cash it in later. Let's not tip our hand just yet.

@Papa Zito - As for the scenarios you posted, doesn't it have to be B, C, or D, because box was a mafia goon?

Ah good. Now we just need AGar.

A is possible if the setup is 2 goons, 1 doc, and 6 vanilla. I did goof a bit, it should read "He knows a doc is lurking, so he makes his best guess and kills tracker." Sorry for the confusion.

[Papa Zito]

^^ Yes. I'll get to that, but I'm waiting on AGar to say whether he's the cop or not.

[Papa Zito]

I have a feeling Dark's come to the same conclusions I have.

While we wait, tell me about your avatar. Who's this plunger guy?

[Papa Zito]

Sandman was a comic book series from the 90's. It was published under DC's Vertigo label, which they used to put out more adult-oriented stuff. Neil Gaiman is one of my favorite authors and he was the writer for the series. I discovered trade paperback versions of the comic after looking for more stuff that he had done.

The series is about the seven Endless, who are kind of like gods. They all start with D: Dream, Death, Destiny, Destruction, Desire, Despair, and Delirium/Delight. My avatar is Dream (aka the Sandman) who is the focus of the series.

[Papa Zito]

So I'll start off by saying that our scum lies somewhere in Mitey, Wicked or AGar.

I've been following, but too tired to post anything really.

Interesting stuff wicked. First you L-1 a guy who the majority wants lynched, and then you unvote him because you don't want to "accidentally" kill him? Doesn't make sense. The people voting wanted him dead. We're past petty random voting, and now Boxman is doing nothing to help his case here.

Papa Zito, I don't necessarily agree with your whole "Claim please" but, hey, it's getting some interesting tells from other people, so keep it up I guess.

I seem to find Boxman a much more effective lynch than Wickedest right now.

I find this very townie, plus he was pretty early on the Box wagon. I don't think AGar is our man.

Okay, so basically what it comes down to is that a Wicked lynch is less risky because he's either vanilla or scum. So there's that.

I still think we should go with Box.

What is more compelling for Box as opposed to Wicked Papa?

Mitey is waffling about the Box situation. She shouldn't be asking this question soon after I posted a big case on Box. There was also her defense of him earlier in the game when I went after him for his RVS "joke". Mitey could easily be our scum.

Unvote: Boxman

Sorry, I was unaware of the vote count. Please don't claim boxman.

@Papa Zito - Wth? Why would you want a second player to say their role? Personally I would rather finish this day without letting mafia know all the power roles.

Then there's Wicked, of course. I wrote yesterday about this particular post: "Wickedestjr's panicked unvote looks like scum trying not to get his partner killed. " Box's flip kinda validates this. Plus since he claimed vanilla yesterday a mislynch doesn't hurt us much here.

vote: Wickedestjr

[Papa Zito]

@Papa Zito - The only way I can defend myself in this situation without using a WIFOM excuse would be to say that I'm the kind of player that likes to spend as much time in the day as possible, and therefore I didn't want a box lynch.

We were 2-3 days away from deadline. This reads like something you pulled from a "Top 10 Ways to Appear Townie" list.

The reason I am suspicious of MM is because;

1: She hasn't contributed hardly any.

2: She doesn't seem to be too interested in scumhunting.

3: The only comments relating to boxman have been defending him in some way.

Please contrast these points to your play in this game.

[Papa Zito]

1: My scumhunting may not have helped much, but I have been trying my best to find out who the last scumhunting member is. Mitey doesn't seem like she has ever.

Who have you hunted, and what were your conclusions?

2: If I wasn't interested in scumhunting then I wouldn't posting as much. Mitey made three posts during day 2 I think, so far. I have made at least 10 I'm pretty sure.

Does post count typically indicate alignment?

3: Well, the only times that Mitey has actually spoken about box, [1]she was first defending his joke that he made at the beginning of the game that he was scum, which turned out to be the truth. [2]Then mitey asked why we would want box lynched more than me. This seemed like she was defending him again to me. [3]She was also never on the box wagon.

1. Yes, it did turn out to be the truth. Let's look at this in more detail. Box identified himself as scum in that joke, which has proven true by his flip. He then identified Thesp as his partner. Since you're using his joke post as evidence, why are you not suspecting Thesp?

2. Why didn't you bring this point up before I mentioned it?

3. Which is more scummy to you: To never join a wagon on someone who later turns out to be scum, or to join it and then jump off when the voter realizes he put the person at L-1?


@Thesp, no worries, we have until July 14. We shouldn't be in a rush.

[Papa Zito]

In fact currently IH has the deciding vote! Its up to youuuu!

Nope...it looks like you all just lynched me.

You and Wicked are both at L-1.

Care to claim?

[Papa Zito]

I take it this means you didn't investigate either of them.

unvote

I don't want this day to end prematurely. We're in no rush here.

[Papa Zito]

If you want me to vote purely on that basis...I already know who to vote for.

*Processing...*

[Papa Zito]

I'm really liking today's version of AGar better than yesterday's.

correct me if i'm wrong guys, but surely thats the best way forward?

It's not a bad way, but maybe not the best way either. Consider this:

1. You're not sure which of the pair is scum. Why not let the day go longer until you can say for sure which of them is more likely?
2. If we lynch early today and the lynchee flips town, we wouldn' have much additional info for tomorrow.
3. There are three players in this game (you, me, Thesp) who haven't been hunted in any meaningful way. That's making me at least a bit uncomfortable. I have this nagging suspicion in the back of my head that things are going a little too well. If that makes sense.

That Indigo post in particular rang some alarm bells. I'm still chewing it over.

[Papa Zito]

@Papa_Zito: You've had something against wicked since early day 1, and while you make some interesting and convincing cases (and he doesn't help his image either), what's to say you aren't scum manipulating our fears?

The answer to this lies in the Boxman situation from yesterday. We know Box is scum, so let's take the scenario where he and I are partners, and I'll show you how it doesn't make much sense.

Our first interaction happens early Day 1. To this point Box has just posted some banter-type stuff when I suddenly blindside him for his opening joke. From a scum perspective, it doesn't make much sense for me to shine a big beacon of light on him when he's under zero suspicion at the time. I attract some heat for proposing random bandwagons/massclaims/etc. His next post responds to mine, and instead of leaving it there I continue the attack. Even more weird, he brings it up again later, as if to make sure he's in the clear with his own partner. (?)

Heat slowly rises on Box through the day, like a frog in a pot of water. I post my Box case. The timing of this though is really weird - while Box did have some heat on him, you and Wicked had a lot more, and at this point a lynch of either one of you is far more likely. Even more strange, I pursue the lynch through the rest of the day instead of moving elsewhere.

tl;dr If I'm scum, I bussed the crap out of my partner, when it wasn't necessary. Much more likely explanation is that I'm town.

This was a good exercise, btw, because I got to reread Mitey in context. I didn't like what I saw.

[Papa Zito]

Hold the phone. Somehow I missed this in Dark's big post. Check this crap out.

PAGE ONE

Mitey Mouse -> Wickedestjr

Wickedestjr (1) [

Mitey Mouse

]

PAGE TWO

Wickedestjr (2) [

Mitey Mouse

, DS]

PAGE THREE

(wahey)
Wickedestjr (1) [

Mitey Mouse

]

PAGE FOUR

Wickedestjr (2) [

Mitey Mouse

, Papa Zito]

PAGE FIVE

Wickedestjr (2) [

Mitey Mouse

, Papa Zito]

PAGE SIX

Wickedestjr (1) [

Mitey Mouse

]

PAGE SEVEN

Wickedestjr (1) [

Mitey Mouse

]

PAGE EIGHT

Wickedestjr (1) [

Mitey Mouse

]

PAGE NINE

Wickedestjr (1) [

Mitey Mouse

]

PAGE TEN

Wickedestjr (2) [

Mitey Mouse

, Indigoheron]

PAGE ELEVEN

Wickedestjr (4) [

Mitey Mouse

, Indigoheron, DS, Tracker]

PAGE TWELVE

Wickedestjr (2) [

Mitey Mouse

, Tracker]

PAGE THIRTEEN

Boxman is lynched, Tracker is Nked

Boy am I slow.

Mitey, why didn't your vote move yesterday?

[Papa Zito]

I'm itching to drop the hammer. heheh

Waiting on others to chime in tho.

[Papa Zito]

Cuz I'd like to win.

I'd feel bad for making you lose tho.

[Papa Zito]

Feel free Mitey. I asked for wider scrutiny earlier.

[Papa Zito]

The best I can call myself is an SE but I'll give this a shot.

The worst thing for scum is a confirmed townie, because confirmed townies narrow the possibilities for the town. Jumping right out and saying who is innocent is the equivalent to painting a big fat target on their back since there's no way for scum to spin anything against that player. Especially in endgame scenarios.

You may be wondering "Yeah but IH isn't a confirmed cop, how can we trust him?" Consider two possibilities:

1. IH is scum. Since he's the only one left anyone he pegs as innocent actually will be. This is one of the rare cases where you can take scum at their word.
2. IH is the cop. His investigation is true, so of course we can trust this.

Either way, the player he names is clear. His job right now is to make sure his innocent doesn't get lynched. It'll be up to him to decide if he should reveal his innocent in twilight. If I were him I would since then the scum has to decide between a cop and a cleared townie. (This assumes we mislynch obv)

That's my take anyway.

[Papa Zito]

Ok...it looks like I'm going to be the target for today. I'm going to take a closer look at Papa and Thesp. Papa because something seems off with him but, I can't quite get my finger on it and Thesp because of him voting for me on 2 Days in a row without reasoning. I'll be back shortly...
I just wanted that out there incase a hammer gets dropped on me.

I already gave a defense to AGar earlier Mitey, if you'd care to poke holes in that.

I agree on the Thesp scrutiny.

[Papa Zito]

Now...naturally, the people who wanted her lynched are the main candidates for scum - Thesp, Darkstrike and AGar. Since we've pretty much ruled out AGar, only Thesp and DarkStrike remain. Right now, Thesp strikes me as the likelier between the two for incessant lurking and his continuous accusation of MiteyMouse as scum.

Hurrah, another twist!

You can add me to that list, I was all ready for the hammer. I'm having a hard time believing she's town after that voting record, but hey.

So our next best bet is Wicked, amirite? Quick synopsis of the Wicked case:

1. No opinions in early game until I called him on it.
2. The panicked unvote of Box late yesterday
3. Randomly throwing accusations around this morning
4. Attacked Mitey when it was convenient

The only thing off here is that Wicked decided to abandon the Mitey wagon when it was at its highest.

This post is still haunting me:

Boxman, who's your scumbuddy?

If I remember correctly, it's this "Thesp" fellow.

What if what if what if...

[Papa Zito]

Welcome back Thesp. Question:

I concur with Darkstrike_11's subsequent analysis of AGar, which makes me feel good about my change of heart.

I understand the desire to vote wickedestjr, but I'm still leery of it, and think Darkstrike_11 is a better lynch.

Help me understand the apparent dichotomy of these two parts of your post.

[Papa Zito]

1. No opinions in early game until I called him on it.

1. When did you comment on this during day 1? Which posts did not contain opinions prior to your comment about it?

Please see here.

2. The panicked unvote of Box late yesterday

2. I have explained this, and not a single person has even acknowledged it. Care to explain what was wrong with it?

"Two claims are too much to digest" and WIFOM are not a defense.

3. Randomly throwing accusations around this morning

3. How so?

Please see the jumbled mess here.

4. Attacked Mitey when it was convenient

4. Please elaborate more on this, because it doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Ok. You start Day 2 flailing with the above post. Then Dark posts his big analysis naming AGar town and voting Mitey. Your very next post suddenly zones in on Mitey and ignores everyone else. (It also parrots Dark's take on AGar and IH btw). There's some defending as people zone in on you, then you vote Mitey because she "didn't change your mind."

Recall this, from yesterday:

hmmm... i just thought of something, this game is starting to split itself into some groups, suspected scum and accusers

under the suspected theirs

Wicked, Mitey, Agar, and Box

under the accusers are

Papa, Dark, Indigo, and Thesp

what to do with this i'm not sure yet

With Box flipping scum, the group came into today with you, AGar and Mitey as most suspicious. When Dark declares AGar likely town, you hit the only other possibility, Mitey.

[Papa Zito]

I'd also like to remind everyone of this post:

Because no one else is really suspicious to me.

You were the only other suspicious person in my eyes, and you turned out to be the cop.

Papa Zito, darkstrike_11, and Thesp have all been useful in some way today.

Wickedest_jr,

tracker

, and

Mitey Mouse

haven't done anything to raise my suspicions.

One of these things is not like the other.

vote: Wickedestjr

[Papa Zito]

That's L-1 wicked.

Give me a reason why I shouldn't drop the hammer.

I thought you were investigating Thesp.

[Papa Zito]

Zito wouldn't want the day to end this fast.

I'll go take a look at Thesp then.

[Papa Zito]

Good call Mitey, I was about to do the same.

[Papa Zito]

Arrite. First, from before the Box wagon had any real steam:

@Thesp: Your thoughts on Box plz?

Middling. I don't mind pressure on him at all.

Scum often put their partners in the nuetral category.

Next:

Which brings me to the fab 3, Thesp, Mitey and Wicked.

Recently, I have come around to the idea that Thesp could be the scum. I intend on investigating him thoroughly. I have already put forward my cases on wicked and mitey.

Thesp and Wicked are the ones I'm looking at now. Thesp is hard to read...I might make up a big yella table

Then suddenly, after Mitey is confirmed:

I understand the desire to vote wickedestjr, but I'm still leery of it, and think Darkstrike_11 is a better lynch.

Seems really gee-whiz coincidental. Especially after:

On top of that, I can think of some reason why I think there's a decent chance every other player in the game is potentially town.

... as this would include Dark.

Then the case:

Looking back, the one I think that most needs to be questioned is how instrumental Darkstrike_11 is on Boxman's lynch. I see his early jump on Boxman, then moves off and over to wickedestjr when Darkstrike hits 4 (strangely after having touted AGar as the other likeliest scum a couple of times). He moves to Boxman late yesterday after Boxman's already got enough steam from everyone else. Darkstrike_11 also seems a little bit too interested in making sure everyone knows he's voted for Boxman. He's really been touting it today, but I'm not convinced his push was as instrumental as he's made it out to be.

I could answer this, but I'd like to hear Dark do so.

Thesp, another question: you've said twice now that you can make compelling cases for the towniness of other players. Wicked is in real danger of being lynched, and you have compelling reasons to see him as town. Given Wicked's inability to defend himself, help us avoid a mislynch: what compelling reason(s) do you have for Wicked's towniness?

[Papa Zito]

You gave an entirely plausible counterargument in that post - he could have pulled it from the initial post.

Is that the only reason you have to believe Wicked is town?

[Papa Zito]

I'll be happy to go back and look a bit later.

Until then I'd say your town read on Wicked is unfounded.

[Papa Zito]

Papa is a mystery to me and that scares me as, I've seen him as Scum. If he's our Scum we are going to have to work hard to get him.

Trueposting. XD

Thesp - Townish read. Problem is I'm completely outclassed here.

Now most of this is pro Town but the part about Thesp is odd to me. If you are Town and so is he then how are you outclassed Papa? If you are on the same team and you think that he's Town then you are not in competition.

First, meta: I was on Team Town with Troll in 791 and said the same thing.

I've read, I dunno, 20-30 games and participated in 10 more. In doing so I've come across a few people multiple times and have developed an opinion of their play. Thesp and Zorblag are two examples. Thesp has vastly superior experience, game knowledge and instincts compared to my own and I acknowledge that fact in my post. His alignment has nothing to do with this.

Also, I don't know if he's on my team or not. I hope to spend more time today exploring this.

FoS: AGar and Boxman

They are both going with the flow, and aren't contributing. I don't like this.

Dude, it's Day 1. It's too early to bus.

This is a pre emptive defence to me. This is funny to me because post 55 in isolation is Papa's big post on Boxman. Did you bus Box Papa?

Er, no, I didn't bus Box. I addressed this earlier with AGar, though I can expand on it if you want. I don't understand what you mean by "preemptive defense".

^^Goldmine post.

1. Scum already know which two setups are valid, by either being two goons or a goon and a roleblocker. So fail on that point.
2. Breadcrumbs can just as easily be left by scum for a future claim.
3. Soft claiming sucks.
4. You're admitting to playing anti-town on purpose.
5. Setting up future lynches is bad bad bad.

Why are you trying to play "devil's advocate" here Papa? Do you not believe him or are you trying to plant doubt? You have several posts that point to you thinking that IH is not the real Cop...why is this?

I wrote that prior to IH's full claim. Looking at it in context, do you dispute any of my points?

Regarding his claim, he isn't confirmed. I'm somewhat alarmed that he both survived and wasn't roleblocked last night. I make mention of this fact from time to time because I want to make sure the town doesn't treat him a a confirmed townie, since that's potentially dangerous.

[Papa Zito]

"Two claims are too much to digest" and WIFOM are not a defense.

Can you please cut through my defense, because this wouldn't really convince me if I were another player, and it doesn't convince me as myself either.

I just did. As did several other players when you said it.

1. "Two claims are too much to digest" - I'm not even sure what this means. Why do you think I asked for a claim in that situation?
2. Saying 'gee whiz guys I wouldn't do that as scum honest' isn't a defense. At all. You're asking everyone else to just trust you.

How is that randomly throwing accusations around? I am merely asking questions about things that I did not understand.

So later in this post you list Box, Mitey, AGar, Tracker and IH (over half the town!) as your main suspicions. Yet this opening post is throwing things at me and Dark, contradicting your list. Even worse, it's content from extremely early Day 1, when we have much better data to use now.

then you vote Mitey because she "didn't change your mind."

What's wrong with this? And as for the zoning in on Mitey, I felt that

since others wanted Mitey lynched, that I should analyze her.

She didn't change my mind about my suspicion, so I voted her.

This is a scumslip.

How 'bout the list of people that box claimed have been useful in some way?

What about it? What's your opinion on it?

[Papa Zito]

^^^ That second quote is Wicked's, not mine.

[Papa Zito]

^^^ That second quote is Wicked's, not mine.

It's much funnier when it looks like you are arguing with yourself.

I do that out of the thread.

In other news, this thread needs more AGar and IH.

[Papa Zito]

Thesp is barely readable for me, although he seems to be doing more good then harm

Let me ask you a couple things on this subject.

1. What good do you think Thesp has done for the town?
2. I contend that Thesp's town read on Wicked is unjustified. Unspoken was my belief that his vote on Dark was therefore unjustified. Agree or disagree?

[Papa Zito]

1. Well, I wasn't sure everybody would want a second person to claim, and when you told box to claim that kind of struck me as you were making the rules, and I didn't want us to do something that we would regret

You didn't answer my question. Why do you think I demanded a claim in that situation?

When I listed those five, I meant that those were the five that I thought the scum were amongst.

What was the point of the questions then?

What is so scummy about analyzing the person that people want to lynch? Isn't that what everybody should do?

You should be analyzing everyone, not just the current bandwagon favorite.

Well, his partner very well could be a person in the list of people he thought had been useful. I find it strange that you are just ignoring those people. If his partner was you, Thesp, or Darkstrike, what list do you think he'd put them in?

In my experience, scum typically list their partners in neutral-sounding categories.

[Papa Zito]

Thesp is barely readable for me, although he seems to be doing more good then harm

Let me ask you a couple things on this subject.

1. What good do you think Thesp has done for the town?
2. I contend that Thesp's town read on Wicked is unjustified. Unspoken was my belief that his vote on Dark was therefore unjustified. Agree or disagree?

1. Stimulate activity, get people thinking on more than one or two paths.
2. Agree. I never said I agreed with his choice of analysis, but it's better than nothing. Same for Mitey, I don't agree with her analysis (which is coming now that she's town), but it's better than wicked's circular defending of himself.

Hmm.

One more observation: At the end of the day yesterday, Thesp left his vote on a player that had no chance of being lynched (Mitey). Today, he seems to be doing the same (Dark). Opinion on this?

Papa is a really good Scum. He seems to play the same if he is Town or Scum. I have played with him as both (in finished games)...it's terribly frustrating!

Then I'm doing my job.

[Papa Zito]

Deadline's starting to worry me a bit.

[Papa Zito]

You didn't answer my question. Why do you think I demanded a claim in that situation?

Because, if he claimed a PR, then we would most likely had unvoted.

Ah good. Do you see why this is beneficial?

To gather more information, as I should be doing, yes?

It all depends on what the purpose was. Townies pursue information to solidify reads. Scum pursue information to appear townie and to generate dirt to push townie bandwagons. When you tell me you were gathering information on two players that you don't have on your scumlist, it makes me wonder which of the two you're doing.

In my experience, scum typically list their partners in neutral-sounding categories.

So if his partner was you or Thesp then he'd put you in the group of people that he didn't suspect, but not in the group of useful people? You two have been very useful, so that would be pretty wierd.

Most likely yes, he'd have put us in the neutral category if one of us were his partners. There are no hard and fast rules in Mafia though.

@Mod: Votecount por favor

[Papa Zito]

If he is scum then he knows that everybody else is innocent. Earlier he defended me. His reason however, was very weak. I am also getting the impression that he knows I am going to get lynched today. If I did, that would probably make him look good, because I would appear innocent, like he had predicted. I think he knows this. So that is why I am voting him. It may be a weak reason in some people's opinions, but he is a very experienced player, and we are probably not going to find much suspicious about him.

If he's scum then he also knew Mitey was innocent. Why do you think he pursued her two days in a row?

[Papa Zito]

2 days ya'll.

Is there anything else we need to discuss?

Mod: Votecount please

[Papa Zito]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and

Vote: Papa Zito

My case on him is earlier in the thread.

If you weren't confirmed I'd find this hugely scummy. Especially after answering your case earlier.

At this point I'm seeing Wicked or Thesp, and the Wicked case has more merit.

I'd suggest everyone do one of these for future reference in case Wicked flips town:

Day 2 Final Scumlist

1. Wickedestjr
2. Thesp
3. IH
4. AGar
5. Dark
6. Mitey

[Papa Zito]

How is it Scummy Papa? I made a case and then voted. That is the point of the game is it not...or part of it anyways.

I refuted your case and you didn't even comment.

I think giving the scuma better idea of who to kill is a VERY, VERY BAD IDEA.

Fail. We have a claimed cop and a cleared MiteyMouse, in addition to a couple other players who have been playing extremely pro-town games. The remaining scum actually has too many targets. It's far better for the town to get these lists in the open so we have more information for tomorrow, if there is one.

[Papa Zito]

1. Thesp/Darkstrike.

What's your beef with Dark?

[Papa Zito]

We need a hammer.

[Papa Zito]

Not Voting: Indigo Heron

I need your vote on record, plz.

[Papa Zito]

woooooooooooooooooooooooow

[Papa Zito]

Ya'll, this was the best game I've ever been a part of, even if I lost. Thank you all for making it so.

And congrats AGar on a fine fine win. I'd love to hear your take on the game.

[Papa Zito]

I think one of the major reasons why this game was so fun is that we had great participation throughout. Nobody flaked, I don't think we had many prods, it was great. They should sticky this game or something as an example of what a Newbie game should be.

AGar, there was some luck involved but your plan was brilliant. I'll admit here that you had me completely fooled. On Day 3 after IH revealed that he had investigated me I thought he was obvscum and needed to be lynched. (IH - dude, why did you investigate me? I thought I was the most obvtown player in the game next to a cleared Mitey) Then when he flipped cop I figured this was all an elaborate Thesp ploy.

So now I'm kinda glad you killed me early.

[Papa Zito]

We had an audience? Lawl.

Dude, Darkstrike, you played a great game. Don't let the last day color it for you. And let me counter what Mitey said a bit... Trusting someone in Mafia

can

be a good thing. You and I worked really well together as town and brought Box down on Day 1. Lynching scum on Day 1 is pretty rare, especially in this format. If you develop a knack for identifying pro-town players and working with them in this way, you'll be a powerful force for the town.

Also, forgot to mention... Many thanks to Khelvaster for modding. I especially enjoyed the flavor.

[Papa Zito]

I wouldn't mind giving it a shot. There are rather rigorous rules about games on here though, so it may have to be done offsite.

[Papa Zito]

Where did Thesp go?

I think we should use the same roles and just try to catch AGar. lawl

/in since I can't PM from my phone.

[Papa Zito]

vote: AGar