Newbie 792--Mafia Island ~ Mafia win!

[Papa Zito]

Arrite. First, from before the Box wagon had any real steam:

@Thesp: Your thoughts on Box plz?

Middling. I don't mind pressure on him at all.

Scum often put their partners in the nuetral category.

Next:

Which brings me to the fab 3, Thesp, Mitey and Wicked.

Recently, I have come around to the idea that Thesp could be the scum. I intend on investigating him thoroughly. I have already put forward my cases on wicked and mitey.

Thesp and Wicked are the ones I'm looking at now. Thesp is hard to read...I might make up a big yella table

Then suddenly, after Mitey is confirmed:

I understand the desire to vote wickedestjr, but I'm still leery of it, and think Darkstrike_11 is a better lynch.

Seems really gee-whiz coincidental. Especially after:

On top of that, I can think of some reason why I think there's a decent chance every other player in the game is potentially town.

... as this would include Dark.

Then the case:

Looking back, the one I think that most needs to be questioned is how instrumental Darkstrike_11 is on Boxman's lynch. I see his early jump on Boxman, then moves off and over to wickedestjr when Darkstrike hits 4 (strangely after having touted AGar as the other likeliest scum a couple of times). He moves to Boxman late yesterday after Boxman's already got enough steam from everyone else. Darkstrike_11 also seems a little bit too interested in making sure everyone knows he's voted for Boxman. He's really been touting it today, but I'm not convinced his push was as instrumental as he's made it out to be.

I could answer this, but I'd like to hear Dark do so.

Thesp, another question: you've said twice now that you can make compelling cases for the towniness of other players. Wicked is in real danger of being lynched, and you have compelling reasons to see him as town. Given Wicked's inability to defend himself, help us avoid a mislynch: what compelling reason(s) do you have for Wicked's towniness?

[MiteyMouse]

There is no need for me to withhold anything at this time as, I'm probably going to be dead by Dawn. I am the only confirmed Town and if there is a Doctor their protection should be on IH tonight. So, there is a big target on my back right now. Before you ask, with one Scum dead, IH could very well be Scum but, that would mean that I am Town. He could be the real Cop and have investigated me and I'm still Town. So, either way, I'm confirmed. Now, even with the target on my right now, I'm still going to be quite valuable for the rest of the Day...none of you have to guess whether or not you can trust me or if I have a Scummy motive...I don't!

I promised that I would go back and look back at a few players. I decided to do Thesp first. This is for a few reasons, if he is Scum then well, I'm a bit scared about how we're going to get out of this and because of his votes for me...hehehe.

So, he has been pretty quiet, even when he is posting often. He has voted with very little reasoning several times. Now with him being our IC here, I can understand why. He wants us to play and think for ourselves possibly and not have us rely too much on him. Now, that being said, we cannot get inside his head and know what he is thinking if he doesn't give us reasoning behind his actions.

Now...things get pretty interesting after the investigation result came out. Thesp goes from going after me with little reasoning to almost lamenting that I'm not Scum...it comes across as pretty emotional.

Now, Thesp, I would love to hear these compelling cases please!

On to my next one...be back soon!

[Thesp]

Thesp, another question: you've said twice now that you can make compelling cases for the towniness of other players. Wicked is in real danger of being lynched, and you have compelling reasons to see him as town. Given Wicked's inability to defend himself, help us avoid a mislynch: what compelling reason(s) do you have for Wicked's towniness?

I mentioned this just before:

Unvote: Boxman

Sorry, I was unaware of the vote count. Please don't claim boxman.

@Papa Zito - Wth? Why would you want a second player to say their role? Personally I would rather finish this day without letting mafia know all the power roles.

Then there's Wicked, of course. I wrote yesterday about this particular post: "Wickedestjr's panicked unvote looks like scum trying not to get his partner killed. " Box's flip kinda validates this. Plus since he claimed vanilla yesterday a mislynch doesn't hurt us much here.

vote: Wickedestjr

I find this (as you and others have put forth) compelling. My vote would move there if not for the particular way he claimed yesterday:

Okay, I am a businessman A.K.A. a townie. I am afraid of the mafia and I win when the they are dead.

It looks like he's paraphrasing a role PM (in a way that might get him modkilled in a closed setup, I might add, but not unlike many new players would do). I would think that scum would be more likely to simply claim "townie". It looks to me as though he actually went to his PM and paraphrased what was there. Now it's not outside of the realm of possibility that he simply pulled the info from the opening post, but the manner in which he claimed it implies otherwise to me.

How he claimed is incredibly consistent with someone going back and reading his role PM. I'm having a hard time thinking scum did that with the info on the opening post.

[Papa Zito]

You gave an entirely plausible counterargument in that post - he could have pulled it from the initial post.

Is that the only reason you have to believe Wicked is town?

[Thesp]

You gave an entirely plausible counterargument in that post - he could have pulled it from the initial post.

Is that the only reason you have to believe Wicked is town?

He could have, but I don't think it's nearly as likely a possibility.

I don't recall any other reason for thinking he's town, I just know that's enough to give me great pause. I'll be happy to go back and look a bit later.

[Papa Zito]

I'll be happy to go back and look a bit later.

Until then I'd say your town read on Wicked is unfounded.

[Thesp]

I'll be happy to go back and look a bit later.

Until then I'd say your town read on Wicked is unfounded.

Fair enough, I respectfully disagree.

[MiteyMouse]

Now...

Papa Zito

Papa is a mystery to me and that scares me as, I've seen him as Scum. If he's our Scum we are going to have to work hard to get him.

I had a very Town read on him very early on in the game. He was questioning and keeping the conversation moving. A lot of fluff but, a lot of content as well so the fluff is forgiven!

Now post 32 and 33 (in isolation) really strike me...let me quote them.

Papa Zito's Player-by-Player #1

AGar - Notta. Zero. Nothing.
Boxman - Jokingly claimed scum. (lulz) Has been casually following the crowd.
Darkstrike_11 - Has prodded several people. Townish vibe.
Indigo Heron - Self-announced lurker.
MiteyMouse - Didn't like the Boxman defense, or the WIFOM defense.
Thesp - Townish read. Problem is I'm completely outclassed here.
tracker - On vacation, apparently.
Wickedestjr - Attacks on me were terrible.

This sucks. I have too many scummy reads.

Wake up, plz.

Now most of this is pro Town but the part about Thesp is odd to me. If you are Town and so is he then how are you outclassed Papa? If you are on the same team and you think that he's Town then you are not in competition.

FoS: AGar and Boxman

They are both going with the flow, and aren't contributing. I don't like this.

Dude, it's Day 1. It's too early to bus.

This is a pre emptive defence to me. This is funny to me because post 55 in isolation is Papa's big post on Boxman. Did you bus Box Papa?

^^Goldmine post.

1. Scum already know which two setups are valid, by either being two goons or a goon and a roleblocker. So fail on that point.
2. Breadcrumbs can just as easily be left by scum for a future claim.
3. Soft claiming sucks.
4. You're admitting to playing anti-town on purpose.
5. Setting up future lynches is bad bad bad.

Why are you trying to play "devil's advocate" here Papa? Do you not believe him or are you trying to plant doubt? You have several posts that point to you thinking that IH is not the real Cop...why is this?

[MiteyMouse]

Now, I say we drag this Day out as long as we can. What do we think?

[Papa Zito]

Papa is a mystery to me and that scares me as, I've seen him as Scum. If he's our Scum we are going to have to work hard to get him.

Trueposting. XD

Thesp - Townish read. Problem is I'm completely outclassed here.

Now most of this is pro Town but the part about Thesp is odd to me. If you are Town and so is he then how are you outclassed Papa? If you are on the same team and you think that he's Town then you are not in competition.

First, meta: I was on Team Town with Troll in 791 and said the same thing.

I've read, I dunno, 20-30 games and participated in 10 more. In doing so I've come across a few people multiple times and have developed an opinion of their play. Thesp and Zorblag are two examples. Thesp has vastly superior experience, game knowledge and instincts compared to my own and I acknowledge that fact in my post. His alignment has nothing to do with this.

Also, I don't know if he's on my team or not. I hope to spend more time today exploring this.

FoS: AGar and Boxman

They are both going with the flow, and aren't contributing. I don't like this.

Dude, it's Day 1. It's too early to bus.

This is a pre emptive defence to me. This is funny to me because post 55 in isolation is Papa's big post on Boxman. Did you bus Box Papa?

Er, no, I didn't bus Box. I addressed this earlier with AGar, though I can expand on it if you want. I don't understand what you mean by "preemptive defense".

^^Goldmine post.

1. Scum already know which two setups are valid, by either being two goons or a goon and a roleblocker. So fail on that point.
2. Breadcrumbs can just as easily be left by scum for a future claim.
3. Soft claiming sucks.
4. You're admitting to playing anti-town on purpose.
5. Setting up future lynches is bad bad bad.

Why are you trying to play "devil's advocate" here Papa? Do you not believe him or are you trying to plant doubt? You have several posts that point to you thinking that IH is not the real Cop...why is this?

I wrote that prior to IH's full claim. Looking at it in context, do you dispute any of my points?

Regarding his claim, he isn't confirmed. I'm somewhat alarmed that he both survived and wasn't roleblocked last night. I make mention of this fact from time to time because I want to make sure the town doesn't treat him a a confirmed townie, since that's potentially dangerous.

[Wickedestjr]

I am also a bit suspicious of Darkstrike. It looks like he is trying not to make any body angry with these comments;

So I will say I think I would prefer scum roles, but

I’m not sure yet

. I wanted to be scum this game

This just doesn't sit well with me. It looks like a very safe answer. I think the "I'm not sure yet" part was just added in case somebody didn't like his answer.

or in case I haven't played a game as scum yet.

It doesn't really make a difference in my opinion. How many games of mafia have you played prior to this one?

I already defended that.

It is still very similar to the other points in that post, so I felt like including it. Can you please tell me what post your defense is in. I don't remember it.

The last part of the sentence was meant in a heavily sarcastic way.

That was not at all obvious to me.

Do you really think I'm saying "unless you want to...oh you do yay lets quicklynch"

Well, the sarcasm was not obvious to me.

Also make a point when you quote. Its not good to just make a post and not put an opinion on it.

I was not sure what to say about it. It was so easily explanable, it was hard to explain. I felt that questions marks would best represent my opinion about it.

stop playing to the crowd.

How am I playing to the crowd?

And why is saying that tracker's death helped the town scummy?

It is not. I never said that it was. I felt that you added "it pains me to say this" because you wanted to seem like you felt that tracker's contribution was helpful and you were truly appreciative of it. (Not that tracker's contribution was bad.) Scum wouldn't be.

Tracker was a neutral/scum read in my mind, his death eradicated a neutral player, keeping more probtown players in the game. And I'm not the one going back to that post, you are, it would be a really stupid defence to use "hey wicked look how it pains me to see tracker killed"

It is not something anybody would want to use in their own defense, it is the kind of thing to persuade others of their innocence. It just doesn't sit well with me.

what WOULD be scummy was if someone 'congratulated' the scum ie "wow we are in a pickle now that tracker is dead". But thats not what I am doing.

I'm not saying you're wrong. But for future reference, why would that be scummy? I also want to know why you think it isn't scummy.

Therefore in conclusion your points aren't that valid.

They may not be, but it is something that I wanted to point out.

Voting patterns for instance, rather than my idiom and turn of phrase.

You've already covered voting patterns.
Okay, I will start thinking of something.

Your arguments are about the way I post, not on the content as much.

Sometimes considering the way people post can be a good idea.

Haing said that, I'm welcoming the investigation. Nobody should sit easy in this game.

Except Mitey of course.

Something I'm thinking of, is that tracker's death is in my mind a ploy for us to suspect IndigoHeron. The scum must have looked at who would be most incriminating to IH to die. I consider this to be a fairly complex ploy. I would suspect Thesp over wicked in doing this. I'd quite like to hear other people's opinions on that because I'm not sure.

Well, when I'm mafia I always kill the biggest threat. Mostly because I am not a good player and I don't have to worry about these kind of things while threats like Thesp and IH do have to worry about it. I'm not saying it confirms any inexperienced player's innocence though, because it could be a big case of WIFOM.

[Wickedestjr]

1. No opinions in early game until I called him on it.

1. When did you comment on this during day 1? Which posts did not contain opinions prior to your comment about it?

Please see here.

I did not realize you called me out on it so early in the game. And I admit I didn't have many opinions about other players prior to that post, but that is only because it is hard for me to get good opinions on players in the first 4 and a half pages in a game. It is not until around the end of day one, or day two, that I actually get good opinions of other players.

2. The panicked unvote of Box late yesterday

2. I have explained this, and not a single person has even acknowledged it. Care to explain what was wrong with it?

"Two claims are too much to digest" and WIFOM are not a defense.

Can you please cut through my defense, because this wouldn't really convince me if I were another player, and it doesn't convince me as myself either.

3. Randomly throwing accusations around this morning

3. How so?

Please see the jumbled mess here.

How is that randomly throwing accusations around? I am merely asking questions about things that I did not understand.

then you vote Mitey because she "didn't change your mind."

What's wrong with this? And as for the zoning in on Mitey, I felt that since others wanted Mitey lynched, that I should analyze her. She didn't change my mind about my suspicion, so I voted her.

With Box flipping scum, the group came into today with you, AGar and Mitey as most suspicious. When Dark declares AGar likely town, you hit the only other possibility, Mitey.

Me and tracker had very similar lists of suspicions. My main suspicions yesterday were box, mitey, agar, tracker, and ih. IH claimed cop, so I was willing to believe him for the time being. Tracker was nk'd so I knew he was evidence, darkstrike convinced me that agar was innocent, and box was lynched, so that left mitey.

[Wickedestjr]

I'd also like to remind everyone of this post:

Because no one else is really suspicious to me.

You were the only other suspicious person in my eyes, and you turned out to be the cop.

Papa Zito, darkstrike_11, and Thesp have all been useful in some way today.

Wickedest_jr,

tracker

, and

Mitey Mouse

haven't done anything to raise my suspicions.

One of these things is not like the other.

vote: Wickedestjr

How 'bout the list of people that box claimed have been useful in some way?

[Wickedestjr]

Papa is a mystery to me and that scares me as, I've seen him as Scum. If he's our Scum we are going to have to work hard to get him.

How is his play compared to his play in that game?

[Papa Zito]

"Two claims are too much to digest" and WIFOM are not a defense.

Can you please cut through my defense, because this wouldn't really convince me if I were another player, and it doesn't convince me as myself either.

I just did. As did several other players when you said it.

1. "Two claims are too much to digest" - I'm not even sure what this means. Why do you think I asked for a claim in that situation?
2. Saying 'gee whiz guys I wouldn't do that as scum honest' isn't a defense. At all. You're asking everyone else to just trust you.

How is that randomly throwing accusations around? I am merely asking questions about things that I did not understand.

So later in this post you list Box, Mitey, AGar, Tracker and IH (over half the town!) as your main suspicions. Yet this opening post is throwing things at me and Dark, contradicting your list. Even worse, it's content from extremely early Day 1, when we have much better data to use now.

then you vote Mitey because she "didn't change your mind."

What's wrong with this? And as for the zoning in on Mitey, I felt that

since others wanted Mitey lynched, that I should analyze her.

She didn't change my mind about my suspicion, so I voted her.

This is a scumslip.

How 'bout the list of people that box claimed have been useful in some way?

What about it? What's your opinion on it?

[Papa Zito]

^^^ That second quote is Wicked's, not mine.

[Thesp]

^^^ That second quote is Wicked's, not mine.

It's much funnier when it looks like you are arguing with yourself.

[Papa Zito]

^^^ That second quote is Wicked's, not mine.

It's much funnier when it looks like you are arguing with yourself.

I do that out of the thread.

In other news, this thread needs more AGar and IH.

[AGar]

Heyyo.

There's not really much for me to input. Seeing that Mitey is innocent, I'm inclined to believe wicked is scum. Thesp is barely readable for me, although he seems to be doing more good then harm, and I've said before that I feel Papa/Dark were just mislead on that, not scum. But that's my personal opinion right now. IH as of right now I have no reasons to doubt his claim. I think Dark was right on target when he said that the tracker lynch was an attempted frame.

Right now I'm sticking to my guns on the wicked vote.

[Papa Zito]

Thesp is barely readable for me, although he seems to be doing more good then harm

Let me ask you a couple things on this subject.

1. What good do you think Thesp has done for the town?
2. I contend that Thesp's town read on Wicked is unjustified. Unspoken was my belief that his vote on Dark was therefore unjustified. Agree or disagree?

[Wickedestjr]

"Two claims are too much to digest" and WIFOM are not a defense.

Can you please cut through my defense, because this wouldn't really convince me if I were another player, and it doesn't convince me as myself either.

I just did. As did several other players when you said it.

1. "Two claims are too much to digest" - I'm not even sure what this means. Why do you think I asked for a claim in that situation?
2. Saying 'gee whiz guys I wouldn't do that as scum honest' isn't a defense. At all. You're asking everyone else to just trust you.

1. Well, I wasn't sure everybody would want a second person to claim, and when you told box to claim that kind of struck me as you were making the rules, and I didn't want us to do something that we would regret

2. Well it may not be a good defense, but I feel that the first point is good enough.

How is that randomly throwing accusations around? I am merely asking questions about things that I did not understand.

So later in this post you list Box, Mitey, AGar, Tracker and IH (over half the town!) as your main suspicions. Yet this opening post is throwing things at me and Dark, contradicting your list. Even worse, it's content from extremely early Day 1, when we have much better data to use now.

When I listed those five, I meant that those were the five that I thought the scum were amongst.

then you vote Mitey because she "didn't change your mind."

What's wrong with this? And as for the zoning in on Mitey, I felt that

since others wanted Mitey lynched, that I should analyze her.

She didn't change my mind about my suspicion, so I voted her.

This is a scumslip.

What is so scummy about analyzing the person that people want to lynch? Isn't that what everybody should do?

How 'bout the list of people that box claimed have been useful in some way?

What about it? What's your opinion on it?[/quote]

Well, his partner very well could be a person in the list of people he thought had been useful. I find it strange that you are just ignoring those people. If his partner was you, Thesp, or Darkstrike, what list do you think he'd put them in?

[Thesp]

What's our current vote count? The deadline's coming a little faster than I'd like.

[Papa Zito]

1. Well, I wasn't sure everybody would want a second person to claim, and when you told box to claim that kind of struck me as you were making the rules, and I didn't want us to do something that we would regret

You didn't answer my question. Why do you think I demanded a claim in that situation?

When I listed those five, I meant that those were the five that I thought the scum were amongst.

What was the point of the questions then?

What is so scummy about analyzing the person that people want to lynch? Isn't that what everybody should do?

You should be analyzing everyone, not just the current bandwagon favorite.

Well, his partner very well could be a person in the list of people he thought had been useful. I find it strange that you are just ignoring those people. If his partner was you, Thesp, or Darkstrike, what list do you think he'd put them in?

In my experience, scum typically list their partners in neutral-sounding categories.

[Indigo Heron]

@Everyone: Sorry, due to the proximity of a coming test, I have to declare myself incapacitated to view this topic for another 18-24 hours or so.

[AGar]

Thesp is barely readable for me, although he seems to be doing more good then harm

Let me ask you a couple things on this subject.

1. What good do you think Thesp has done for the town?
2. I contend that Thesp's town read on Wicked is unjustified. Unspoken was my belief that his vote on Dark was therefore unjustified. Agree or disagree?

1. Stimulate activity, get people thinking on more than one or two paths.
2. Agree. I never said I agreed with his choice of analysis, but it's better than nothing. Same for Mitey, I don't agree with her analysis (which is coming now that she's town), but it's better than wicked's circular defending of himself.