Mafia 70: Traditional - Game over!

[Sir Tornado]

Vote: Flameaxe

[Sir Tornado]

And, the reasoning being...?

[Sir Tornado]

Unvote: Flameaxe

[Sir Tornado]

Niv:
Can you directly quote your PM to Simenon and his PM back to you? I think that is allowed as long as you don't put in anything from role PM in it.
Also, just to make sure, was it explicitly stated in your role pm that one among the five is scum?

[Sir Tornado]

Simenon, not talking to each other part is not wise. You can determine from private conversations whether someone is scum or not. You should talk to each other a lot and ask each other their take on the D1 events during N1.

[Sir Tornado]

Wait...

Did the PMs say explicitly that one of the mason was mafia? Or did it say he was merely untrustworthy?

The thing is, having masons, where one of the mason is mafia sort of beats logic. I mean, what is the point in having masons where the mafia know all the masons? It is much more likely that the untrustworthy mason is a SK, or a survivor, or some neutral role.

[Sir Tornado]

SirT needs to post more than votes.

Number of vote/unvote posts: 2
Number of other posts: 3

So, I AM posting more than just votes.

[Sir Tornado]

Highly untrue. You've never been an unconfimed mason have you?

I have been one, in fact. In Open 35 Big Love Mafia, I was one of the lovers, and my partner could have been a mafia OR town, and I was allowed to talk to my partner during night phase.

[Sir Tornado]

I dislike how MoS automatically believes Niv, even when Simenon said that another Mason buddy can confirm what he got.

Do we want another mason outing himself? No! I don't think we can be sure whether the traitor mason is a mafia, or some other anti-town role. Outing more masons is not a good idea, imho.

[Sir Tornado]

umm back there in post 98, where i said this. Clearly I'm scum though, OBVI. Oy, some people are so blind. How am I not supposed to suspect someone who votes me AFTER I say I'm leaning toward believing. It's more than OMGUS, it's logic. If you're voting for one of the few people saying they believe you then clearly there's something wrong there. Someone's trying deflect suspicion on to someone else.

This post is making zero sense to me.

Here is how things unfolded in a chronological order:

1) You say that you are inclined to believe Simenon over Niv, but yet FOS both of them
2) Simenon FOSes you and asks you a valid question, as to why you suspected both of them (when, there was clearly only one scum within the 5 player mason group)
3) You vote for Simenon.

Explain how it is NOT OMGUS rather than logic (by OMGUS, I do not mean a OMGUS vote, but a OMGUS accusation)

[Sir Tornado]

Wait... Simenon voted you instead of FOSing you as I stated in my last post.

So, now explain how it is not a OMGUS vote.

[Sir Tornado]

Zonace's play sucks right now. I mean, seriously, someone is asking for replacement on Page 5 of a 22 player game just because the town isn't following his logic, and refuses to answer any questions? How the heck did you play those 31 games you list on your sig?

[Sir Tornado]

I think Niv, Simeon and Lemming are all Scum, and it will be obvious after you lynch me.

*sigh*

Why is everyone appealing to emotion in this game?

Explain how "it would be obvious that Niv, Simeon and Lemming are scum after we lynch you".

i think that Niv called out simenon to pull pressure off his scum buddy

Don't think that's the case, because:

1) This is not a mini. 4-5 votes is not actually a serious bandwagon when you require 12 to lynch, and I highly doubt whether we have put anyone under any sort of "pressure" yet.


2) I think it is highly unlikely that the untrustworthy mason is actually a part of a scum group. That would be insane as the entire mason group would be known to the scum.

Remember, that untrustworthy does not automatically equal scum. Sure, scum are untrustworthy, but they are not the only ones who are untrustworthy.

I'd like to hear more from MoS and KScope (and the rest of the lurkers whose names I am not going to look up right now)

[Sir Tornado]

*sigh*

Why is everyone appealing to emotion in this game?

Explain how "it would be obvious that Niv, Simeon and Lemming are scum after we lynch you".

That was a quote. If you actually read his post you would know he doesn't know how to quote yet.

Btw Celtic quote tags are such

Quote="X" in brackets, where X is the player. Close them with /quote in brackets as well.

so if you were quoting me saying hi it would be

quote="Flare"hi/quote

with the quote="" and /quote encased in []

Ah, um... sorry, my bad

In that case, direct that question to Zoneace: How are Niv, Simenon and Lemming "obviously" scum if we lynch you and you turn up town?

[Sir Tornado]

Secondly, why are you so confident that Patrick mod wouldn't send him a mason pm as well, as that seems kind of unfair to scum masons, if there is even a scum mason.

If there is an untrustworthy mason, he would, I think, be told that other masons are told about the untrustworthiness in their PMs, but he would, IMO not actually get the town-mason PM. I think that is the most probable scenario. Which means, of course, that the masons can decide, after a few days, of discussion as to who the scummiest is among them, and ask that person to quote the mason PM to them during their night time talk. (I think that should be allowed as per the rules)

[Sir Tornado]

6.Prematurely claiming with around 5 votes on him when it's 12 to lynch, which signifies overdefensiveness on his part.

I actually strongly agree with this point. I would also like Zonace to tell me exactly how "the town was lynching him for absolutely no logic" when he did not even have half the number of votes required for a lynch on him.

[Sir Tornado]

Flare:

I think Patrick so good a mod that there is NO scum mason.

[Sir Tornado]

I just think that Patrick is a good enough mod that if there is even a scum mason, he would give out the mason pm.

On reconsideration, I disagree. The untrustworthy mason would just be told that the others have been told about his untrustworthiness. Usually, people don't get other people's role PMs in closed setups.

[Sir Tornado]

Scum masons is a mason who is actually a mason who is a goon or such as well.

Don't you see the problem with a scum mason? He knows who the other masons are AND he can talk with the other scum. What exactly is the point in having masons in that case if the scum know who they are? Would Patrick mod do something like this?

I am leaning towards a SK mason.

[Sir Tornado]

SirT, it's pure speculation, but it's like an SK getting a safeclaim. It would be to broken by claiming if they did not.

scum

get other role pms if they can be caught and the game broken by something like a massclaim or something. In this case, masons claiming and such.

No they don't. They usually get just a safeclaim in case they need to claim. Not the entire PM.

[Sir Tornado]

BUT THE WARNING NOT TO TALK WAS NOT IN THE MASON PM!!.

So it was in the scum PM. I see.

Vote Simenon

.

...

And why exactly would a scum mason be warned not to speak with other masons?

[Sir Tornado]

This whole mess can be easily cleared. Please quote your PMs to each other (that is, not the role PMs, but the PMs you sent each other) in the thread.

From my experience, quoting only the moderator is disallowed. I don't think it is against the rules to quote each other (although both of you should clear up with Patrick first), because in Open 21: Friends and Enemies, which was also modded by Patrick, he allowed the mason (Albert B. Rampage) to quote his mason buddy's (Ripley's) PM to him in thread. Here is the instance where it was allowed and the confirmation that it was indeed quoted from a night time mason talk PM.

[Sir Tornado]

You sir, are a cheater. Quoting any PMs are usually not only disallowed, they are modkillable offenses.

Actually, you are wrong. Read the rules again

11.) Do not quote or fakequote your

role PM

. This is a modkillable offence.

Now, I'd like you to tell me where you get the part: "Quoting ANY PMs is not allowed". I have just given you, in my post an instance where I had seen a mason quote a PM from his buddy in a Patrick mod game.

[Sir Tornado]

Oh, and while you are at it, explain the FOS on me too. Tell me, how my post makes me scum.

[Sir Tornado]

Which is usually a modkillable offense SirT. It's usually understood that quoting a PM=a modkill

You still haven't told me exactly where you got this information from.

[Sir Tornado]

SirT, it's

understood

. Quoting a role pm is supposed to be "proof" you are that role, the same rule obviously applies to mason PMs.

I would doubt that there is some game to reference this, because it's understood and players do not want to be modkilled.

Now if you could explain to me why you'd think a role pm, a mod PM, and a mason PM, when quoted, would produce different punishments from a mod?

Read my post where I ask Niv to quote his PM to Simenon. I give an example where Patrick allowed a mason PM to be directly quoted in another game.

You cannot quote a PM from mod because it directly confirms you, and because the mod is actually not a part of the game, and can't dispute you. Quoting a mason PM, on the other hand is completely legit unless stated otherwise (which seems to be the case here), because it actually does not confirm you by any means as scum can send night PMs to each other too.

PS: In the post where I asked Simenon and Niv to quote their PMs, I told them to clear it up with mod first. So, how was I trying to get them modkilled? Explain the FOS with a valid reason please.

[Sir Tornado]

PM from the mod to all te masons:

no quoting aof a pm, no matter where they are from. this was sent after my claim occured.

Fair enough.

[Sir Tornado]

So Lemming...you point out his roleclaim with 3 votes on him. What about the other claim in this game (Niv) with nothing but a random vote on him? Did you really find that it was necessary at all?

Do you think Niv claimed because he had a few votes on him?

Well, now that Zoneace has clarified he is not asking for replacements, I want Zoneace to tell me how the town was "lynching him illogically" when he had his first outburst. I think I have asked this earlier and was ignored by him, so I would be happy if he clarified it this time.

[Sir Tornado]

Don't you see the problem with a scum mason? He knows who the other masons are AND he can talk with the other scum. What exactly is the point in having masons in that case if the scum know who they are? Would Patrick mod do something like this?

I am leaning towards a SK mason.

I don't see any real value in this speculation.

Actually, it does matter. If the mason is a mafia member, the mafia know the entire masonry. If the mason is a SK, then no one outside the masonry knows who the mason are.

[Sir Tornado]

Zoneace, are you ever going to answer my question?

[Sir Tornado]

probably not

Vote: Zoneace

If you aren't going to play at all, then I am perfectly comfortable lynching you.

[Sir Tornado]

Well... Zoneace could be a jester, but I would not expect a jester in a Patrick mod game. Vote stays.

[Sir Tornado]

Zoneace is not scum. You think he's scum because you have never played with him before. Or, you know he's not scum and are pushing a lynch on him because you think he's an easy target and don't realize that those of us who've been around this whole time know the Zonace isn't acting scummy.

I voted him after he refused to answer a question I asked him three times. Explain how I am "pushing an easy lynch".

[Sir Tornado]

I am not going to read any games. I don't have time to read games. Please state your point.

[Sir Tornado]

So, why did you claim that the town was about to lynch you over faulty logic when we were no where near lynching you?

[Sir Tornado]

Do you think the votes were without reason? I think every single vote except Yamahako's stemed from this post of yours:

I must say I'm not pleased with Niv's descision to out the mason group. Unconfirmed mason does not equal mafia mason, it can, but its not a definite and if everyone in the mason group ends up being town then outing anymore of them jsut gives the mafia more easy targets.

I don't know why but at this point I'm leaning toward beleiving Simeon over Niv, but FOS BOTH OF THEM

Ckillor's thoughts make sense (regarding Niv and Lemming possibly being mafia) despite it being unliekly and not the best plan for the mafia if it's true. so FOS Lemming as well.

I'm gonna unvote flameaxe as my vote there was really just trying to get the day 1 bandwagon train rolling but sense we actually have some real info now and real suspicions we don't need a random bandwagon.

thats all for now [/b]

In this post, you:

1) FOS both Simenon and Niv even though chances of both being scum are very slim
2) FOS Lemming even though you say the case against him is unlikely.

Does that not seem like you are deliberately being non committal?

Im ndone playing, i won't be answering anymore questions. Its clear no matter what I say you all are gonna lynch me with your ZERO LOGIC so why try? This 5 person mason claim could EASILY be the mafia's way to safe claim, or it could really be there, I don't know and I don't care. So getting the others to confirm you won't do anything to sway me. Not to mention it would be a TERRIBLE idea if in infact you aren't mafia. The town having more people reveal themselves on day one is stupid, but since I've recieved votes for god only knows what reason, I don't expect to town to do the smart thing.

This is the post I have the biggest problem with.

1) You declare you aren't going to play any more and refuse to answer any more questions
2) You illogically attack the 5 man mason pair of being scum.
3) You claim to have received votes for no reason, even though two of the three votes had reasons attached to it, and you chose not to address them (Yamahako's was opportunistic, I think, and he is the next person I am going to move on to if you provide satisfactory answers)

Then, after that point on, you make ZERO contribution to the game, and then pop up a few days later after the heat is off you and say you are not asking for replacement (even though you had said earlier that you are "done playing this game")

I've been playing this game long enough to know when a wave has begun. It was clear where the day was headed. I was going to fall victim to a baseless lynch pushed by atleast one (and likely more) member of the mafia. the original votes i got, if you'll go back and look, were without merit, by people trying to throw suspicion off of themselves.

You had THREE votes on you. How is that heading anywhere near a baseless lynch? This post is pure crap and utterly untrue.

[Sir Tornado]

Meh, bad editing in the first quotation part... The post should have read:

Do you think the votes were without reason? I think every single vote except Yamahako's stemed from this post of yours:

I must say I'm not pleased with Niv's descision to out the mason group. Unconfirmed mason does not equal mafia mason, it can, but its not a definite and if everyone in the mason group ends up being town then outing anymore of them jsut gives the mafia more easy targets.

I don't know why but at this point I'm leaning toward beleiving Simeon over Niv, but FOS BOTH OF THEM

Ckillor's thoughts make sense (regarding Niv and Lemming possibly being mafia) despite it being unliekly and not the best plan for the mafia if it's true. so FOS Lemming as well.

I'm gonna unvote flameaxe as my vote there was really just trying to get the day 1 bandwagon train rolling but sense we actually have some real info now and real suspicions we don't need a random bandwagon.

thats all for now

In this post, you:

1) FOS both Simenon and Niv even though chances of both being scum are very slim
2) FOS Lemming even though you say the case against him is unlikely.

Does that not seem like you are deliberately being non committal?

Im ndone playing, i won't be answering anymore questions. Its clear no matter what I say you all are gonna lynch me with your ZERO LOGIC so why try? This 5 person mason claim could EASILY be the mafia's way to safe claim, or it could really be there, I don't know and I don't care. So getting the others to confirm you won't do anything to sway me. Not to mention it would be a TERRIBLE idea if in infact you aren't mafia. The town having more people reveal themselves on day one is stupid, but since I've recieved votes for god only knows what reason, I don't expect to town to do the smart thing.

This is the post I have the biggest problem with.

1) You declare you aren't going to play any more and refuse to answer any more questions
2) You illogically attack the 5 man mason pair of being scum.
3) You claim to have received votes for no reason, even though two of the three votes had reasons attached to it, and you chose not to address them (Yamahako's was opportunistic, I think, and he is the next person I am going to move on to if you provide satisfactory answers)

Then, after that point on, you make ZERO contribution to the game, and then pop up a few days later after the heat is off you and say you are not asking for replacement (even though you had said earlier that you are "done playing this game")

I've been playing this game long enough to know when a wave has begun. It was clear where the day was headed. I was going to fall victim to a baseless lynch pushed by atleast one (and likely more) member of the mafia. the original votes i got, if you'll go back and look, were without merit, by people trying to throw suspicion off of themselves.

You had THREE votes on you. How is that heading anywhere near a baseless lynch? This post is pure crap and utterly untrue.

[Sir Tornado]

THE JUST FRIGGIN LYNCH ME AND SEE THAT YOU ARE WRONG AND BE DOWN A TOWNIE WHEN YOU COULD LYNCH SOMEONE WHO IS MUCH MORE LIKELY TO BE SCUM.

god damn i'm sick of your useless logicless accusations.


how is me STATING MY TRUE SUSPICIONS ABOUT NIV, SIMEON AND LEMMING DELIBERATLEY NONCOMMITAL??????


christ you people deserve to lose if you do this.

You stating your true suspicions about Niv, Simenon and Lemming is not bad. What is bad is that you take BOTH sides of the argument. Look again at your FOS in case of Lemming. You agree that the case against him is unlikely but STILL FOS him. Why?

[Sir Tornado]

god damn i'm sick of your useless logicless accusations.

Are you implying accusations you have made have any logic? If they do, you are yet to state it. Please do so.

[Sir Tornado]

god damn i'm sick of your useless logicless accusations.

Are you implying accusations you have made have any logic? If they do, you are yet to state it. Please do so.

[Sir Tornado]

I FOS'd him because while the case against him was unlikely it WAS STILL POSSIBLE. I FOS people who appear to me as possible scum, and he was possibly scum, unlikely, BUT STILL POSSSIBLE.

This is stupid. It is possible for EVERYONE to be scum in some or other unlikely way.

[Sir Tornado]

I read it. Explain how is it "logical" for the scum to out two of their members as masons and expect to get away with it in a game this size.

Did you actually make a case against Lemming? Where?

[Sir Tornado]

This is the game I'm referring to. Just filter it down to ZONEACE's posts, it won't take you long to flick through.

I flicked through it and can confirm that Zoneace acted like this in capacity of a role equivalent to town in that game. Need to see whether he plays like this as mafia too.

[Sir Tornado]

yeah im done trying to make you see the truth cause YOU CLEARLY DON'T WANT TO.

so you have fun tornado and when you lose, don't look at me, you have no one to blame but yourself.

You are not even trying to "make me see truth". As you are indeed playing this game for a long time, you should know that appealing to emotion and typing in all caps does not help convince others that you are pro town. It certainly does not convince me.

[Sir Tornado]

Basically EXACTLY like that game...

Er... no. Although he was a mafia goon in that game, the mafia was actually "The Town"

[Sir Tornado]

Yamahako, Celtic18 and Beastly need to post more. K-Scope needs to post more meaningful content.

[Sir Tornado]

viewtopic.php?t=261&highlight=
theres one

[url]http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... highlight=[/ur]
another


Ive not been mafia many times so finding examples is hard

Unvote

[Sir Tornado]

and your voting for me indicates that you clearly have no clue what you're doing.

How do you know he does not have any clue as to what he is doing?

[Sir Tornado]

because he's voting for me. OBVI

And you aren't voting him?

[Sir Tornado]

No... but I fail to see why him voting you is bad and you voting him is not bad.

[Sir Tornado]

before his one post yesterday suggesting i might be a jester he hadn't posted in almost a week and he's only posted 5 times in the game. He's been super lurky and suddenly shows up to jump on a lame wagon. sounds like someone worth voting to me.

Hmm... actually, I agree with you here... I had thought at first that your vote was OMGUS...

[Sir Tornado]

Everyone showing any indication that you're scummy is voteworthy in your eyes.

Er... no. Zoneace never actually voted me when I was voting him.

[Sir Tornado]

Any reasons?

Why do you need reasons?

Do you not need reasons?

[Sir Tornado]

Any reasons?

Why do you need reasons?

Do you not need reasons?

Here's a song lyric that describes my feelings on the matter rather well.

Words like violence / Break the silence
Come crashing in / Into my little world
Painful to me / Pierce right through me
Can't you understand / Oh my little girl

All I ever wanted / All I ever needed
Is here in my arms
Words are very unnecessary / They can only do harm

Vows are spoken / To be broken
Feelings are intense / Words are trivial
Pleasures remain / So does the pain
Words are meaningless / And forgettable

I predict that JDodge would go back to his lurking following this.

[Sir Tornado]

I am pming the mod with a request that Lemming be forceably replaced out of this game. I suggest that you all follow suit. There is no point in playing with someone who insists on playing like a retard and flaming people repeatedly out of immaturity. At least ZONEACE is actually playing the game, even if it's in his style to use AdHom. Lemming is just being immature and annoying as hell. I don't want him in this game anymore.

I don't see where lemming is flaming. His recent posts which I see as remotely flames are his posts 519, 521, 523, but I've seen much worse flaming allowed here. I'd ask you to quote, but, it would just lead us off to an unwanted discussion. My point is, that I don't see any reason for Lemming to be replaced forcibly at all.

[Sir Tornado]

Ok, let's break it down into smaller questions:

1. Do you agree that ZONEACE's scumtells are extremely obvious?
2. Do you agree that ZONEACE is an experienced player?
3. Do you agree that ZONEACE is not stupid?

I believe that all of these questions can be answered "yes" with some certainty. Unless you can come up with another factor that I'm missing, the logical conclusion is that ZONEACE is aware of what he's doing. WIFOM applies to questions of motivation, whereas these are questions that can be answered definitively based on available facts.

I agree with this post. I think point 1 and 2 are indeed correct, while I am not sure on whether ZONEACE is stupid or not, although is is probably not. What I am sure of is that ZONEACE does not play Very well as townie (probably Intentionally) which is why I think whatever he is doing in this Game is a null tell right now.

Having said that, always playing like an very idiotic person and inviting suspicion on you the way ZONEACE is doing does have it's advantages -- a real scum tell, if dropped tends to be disregarded. He's on my list of players who should not be allowed to live until end game.

[Sir Tornado]

Zoneace, what do you think of: Sir T, MoS, Yamahako and a special question for you: how do you think you've played this game? As good as you normally do?

Answer this please ZONEACE.

White: What do you think about all the people voting for you right now?

[Sir Tornado]

A case that isn't utilized or presented as not going to get my lynched. I take it your goal is to get my lynched. Not presenting a case against me is not a successful way to get someone lynched.

Presenting cases are part of scum hunting yet, but you should know better than to assume that's all there is to it. The thing is, I don't see you presenting a case for anyone.

So, getting you lynched == scum hunting?

Interesting...

[Sir Tornado]

Voting for yourself, whether a joke vote or not is bad play.

Vote: Sir Tornado

Explain how it is bad play.

[Sir Tornado]

Sir Tornado wants to apply pressure to the lurkers, now from my understanding this would be an easy case for scum to go after people, picking on the lurkers, something to look for. Especially those after me haha.

Point out one of my post where I want to "apply pressure to the lurkers".

[Sir Tornado]

[quote="KaleiÐoscøpe"]Niv, learn what lurking means.

Unvote Vote: Celtic

[/quote]

Do you mean to tell us that you did not even realise celtic has been replaced?

[Sir Tornado]

What is the purpose of a vote? I believe the main purposes are to get a lynch and to pressure for information. By voting for yourself are might be accomplishing the former (which is bad town play) but you won't be accomplishing the latter. Which makes little sense in the form of scum hunting or really contributing at all. I would consider that tbad town play.

Would you agree if I said that I am trying to get myself lynched by voting myself? Do you think I am doing that? Or, do you think I am trying to apply pressure on myself?

[Sir Tornado]

I don't know if you're trying to get yourself lynched. But if you are trying to get yourself lynched and you're town, that's bad play. If you're trying to get yourself lynched and you're mafia, that's bad play. If you're trying to get yourself lynched in any circumstance other than jester or some weird win condition, it's bad play.

What if I am not voting myself to get myself lynched? Is that still bad play?

[Sir Tornado]

Ok, we're going in circles. I've addressed this whole thing before, if you're still curious, then take the time to read my posts. I've been perfectly clear.

As a side note, what possible bearing does this have on the game and catching scum?

Actually, no, we are not going in circles. You made a statement that amounted to: "Self voting is always bad play". I self voted and asked you to tell me exactly how my self vote was bad play. You still haven't answered it.

[Sir Tornado]

Tornado - It just struck me that during the beginning of the game you were looking more than anyone else to prod/promote lurkers, in reflection it wasn't nothing major. I'm not saying it's neccessarily scummy but it's something to keep an eye on because looking at several other games it's a tactic scum like to apply.

I'd like to hear more from MoS and KScope (and the rest of the lurkers whose names I am not going to look up right now)

Yamahako, Celtic18 and Beastly need to post more. K-Scope needs to post more meaningful content.

You still haven't told me the post where I tried to "pressurize" lurkers.

[Sir Tornado]

Well yes, it can be used as a defence of someone, but it can also be the truth. I think Jester is a more common role than Lyncher, JailKeeper, or Survivor. It's probably equally as common as an SK.

Wrong. SK is way more common than Jester. So is Survivor I think. Jester is as common as Lyncher and possibly more than Jailkeeper.

[Sir Tornado]

SirT, by voting for yourself, what were you trying to achieve?

I was trying to show White that voting yourself is not always bad play, but seeing how dense he is, I have given up.

[Sir Tornado]

Why the hell are we still talking bout this? IDK that this is a give up ooist, Why do you insist on still talijkg bout this.

Why did you keep talkin bout this so long?

You mean to say I should just ignore Aimee's question?

[Sir Tornado]

Can you explain how trying to prove this is actually helping the town? It seems like far more of a distraction that has no real merit.

That line of questioning was supposed to develop into something more later on.

[Sir Tornado]

I am not saying it is necessarily "good" town play. I am saying it is not always "bad" play. My self vote, for example was meant to question you regarding your assertion regarding self voting, which cannot be termed as "bad".

Can explain what it develops into later on that is beneficial to the town?

That would have been based on the reactions given by you. You failed to answer the question altogether.

[Sir Tornado]

Bah. I've clearly missed something. Why are Tornado and White spamming about self-votes? (Why is Tornado

still

self-voting, anyway?)

I have half a post on a different computer. It continues my spats with Setael and White and explains to Aimee that I got off of Flare because he's lurking and no one else is on him, so the alternative would be to shout the same things again and again. I'll get back to you once I'm home.

Er... yes.

Unvote

[Sir Tornado]

I have answered your questions several times and consistently quoted myself with my answers presented to you. Please read my posts.

If it's not good play, but it's not bad play, how is it neutral play? Why would you want to play neutrally? What benefit comes to the town by not scum hunting? What benefits does the town receive by playing neutrally?

I read you posts perfectly well and concluded that you do not seem to have the capacity to comprehend and answer that question, instead relying on the generic answer, (whilst I asked a question regarding a specific case) which is why I gave that line of questioning a rest.

[Sir Tornado]

unvote

Vote White

[Sir Tornado]

unvote

Vote White

Bandwagon much? Let's hear a case.

I like to bandwagon scum.

[Sir Tornado]

For Example, what has TS done? Tunnelvisioned and bandwagoned me. Scumhunting? No. Helpful to the town? Nope, there are plenty of people doing that already. Presenting cases? No. Giving a list of suspicion....nope. I'm trying atleast.

I suppose you are trying to imply you are huntiing scum? Chasing after lurkers is not scum hunting. Stop being so obsessed with lurkers.

[Sir Tornado]

I am a bit surprised TS did not accuse MoS for distancing from White while voting him... any particular reason for that Toaster?

[Sir Tornado]

Actually, The Fonz has a decent point. You say you want White to claim and then have "information to discuss".

There are two cases here to be considered:

1) You believe White to be a scum, and think he would false claim. In that case, we would get a lot of "information" which would actually be all false and harmful to the town. (probably leading to outing of another role).

2) You think White is a power role and thus the information he will have when he claims is real. In this scenario, I would ask you why you are pushing rather hard for his lynch at the moment?

[Sir Tornado]

vote: Toaster Strudel

Mainly for 857. It really makes her look as though she is blatantly setting White up as a mislynch.

To tell you the truth I'm really torn now. White has set off a five-alarm fire in my head that he's scum.

Simenon's stated reluctance to vote White startled me.

But wait! Now I get it. Simenon is, after all, a mason.

unvote

This post doesn't actually make sense to me.

[Sir Tornado]

TS: Did you know that the masons are not 100% confirmed townies, according to what Niv and Simenon said?

Based on that, why did you unvote White just because you thought he could be a mason?

[Sir Tornado]

I don't think we should lynch a claimed cop. If TS isn't actually a cop, we have trapped her... there isn't much far you can get after claiming cop if you aren't a cop.

[Sir Tornado]

QFT. i just don't risks. expect to die tomorow, regardless of result.

You mean you aren't going to believe TS if she gets someone guilty?

[Sir Tornado]

Mod, what is the lynching requirement at deadline?

[Sir Tornado]

Can someone please state exactly what the Zeppo or Zorg b/w is all about? Or a link to the original argument or something?

[Sir Tornado]

Zorg had some heat, dissapeared, re-appeared posted the above and has since dissapeared again. For what it's worth he still looks the scummiest to me.

While I agree this behaviour is scummy, it should be noted that...

Sir Tornado wants to apply pressure to the lurkers, now from my understanding this would be an easy case for scum to go after people, picking on the lurkers, something to look for. Especially those after me haha.

Tornado it is again in 312 pushing for the lurkers, again I see this as somewhat a mafia ploy, yes it could be seen pro-town but it could also be looking to shift the scum attack in a different direction.

[Sir Tornado]

Zorg had some heat, dissapeared, re-appeared posted the above and has since dissapeared again. For what it's worth he still looks the scummiest to me.

While I agree this behaviour is scummy, it should be noted that...

Sir Tornado wants to apply pressure to the lurkers, now from my understanding this would be an easy case for scum to go after people, picking on the lurkers, something to look for. Especially those after me haha.

Tornado it is again in 312 pushing for the lurkers, again I see this as somewhat a mafia ploy, yes it could be seen pro-town but it could also be looking to shift the scum attack in a different direction.

Irrelevant. You're comparing apples to oranges.

It would be actually great if you stopped talking in metaphors.

[Sir Tornado]

Zorg had some heat, dissapeared, re-appeared posted the above and has since dissapeared again. For what it's worth he still looks the scummiest to me.

While I agree this behaviour is scummy, it should be noted that...

Sir Tornado wants to apply pressure to the lurkers, now from my understanding this would be an easy case for scum to go after people, picking on the lurkers, something to look for. Especially those after me haha.

Tornado it is again in 312 pushing for the lurkers, again I see this as somewhat a mafia ploy, yes it could be seen pro-town but it could also be looking to shift the scum attack in a different direction.

Irrelevant. You're comparing apples to oranges.

It would be actually great if you stopped talking in metaphors.

But this is a crisis. A large crisis. In fact, if you've got a moment, it's a twelve-story crisis with a magnificent entrance hall, carpeting throughout, 24-hour porterage and an enormous sign on the roof saying 'This Is a Large Crisis.'

Bonus points to whomever gets the reference first.

Shut up JDodge. Go back to your lurking.

[Sir Tornado]

Zorg had some heat, dissapeared, re-appeared posted the above and has since dissapeared again. For what it's worth he still looks the scummiest to me.

While I agree this behaviour is scummy, it should be noted that...

Sir Tornado wants to apply pressure to the lurkers, now from my understanding this would be an easy case for scum to go after people, picking on the lurkers, something to look for. Especially those after me haha.

Tornado it is again in 312 pushing for the lurkers, again I see this as somewhat a mafia ploy, yes it could be seen pro-town but it could also be looking to shift the scum attack in a different direction.

Irrelevant. You're comparing apples to oranges.

It would be actually great if you stopped talking in metaphors.

But this is a crisis. A large crisis. In fact, if you've got a moment, it's a twelve-story crisis with a magnificent entrance hall, carpeting throughout, 24-hour porterage and an enormous sign on the roof saying 'This Is a Large Crisis.'

Bonus points to whomever gets the reference first.

Shut up JDodge. Go back to your lurking.

Look at me I'm a helpful contributor

You were better off lurking. Seriously.

[Sir Tornado]

Thinking TS is scum and wanting to lynch her on Day 1 regardless of her claim are two VERY different things. I also feel that TS is most likely scum, but I'm not stupid enough to take a chance on the fact that TS might be an actual cop who was playing lousy. There are ways to tell the difference without lynching right away, and we should use them.

:goodposting:

[Sir Tornado]

Cops... Claim your results please.

[Sir Tornado]

Lemming... why

are

you not claiming your results?

ZONEACE, do you doubt Lemming's cop claim? I personally think his claim was quite believable.

[Sir Tornado]

Also for the record, that was the main reason I FoS'd MoS yesterday. The fact that he came out with the possibility of multiple cops so early is odd to me. Multiple cops in a game is pretty broken unless they have different sanities, making it a sort of mini dethy, or the scum has some crazy roles to balance.

Or maybe there's something in the game that heavily balances multiple cops.

Or occam's razor and Toaster is lying

I investigated Toaster. I got innocent.

Isn't that a pickle.

Vote Lemming

[Sir Tornado]

Meh,

unvote

This gets even more ridiculous now...

I have a guilty, so I think I should go last. It's going to rush the day, and reduce the amount of information we gather from it.

With two cops (and maybe more), I think it's imperative that we be cautious and sort out special mechanics/sanities before acting out. Since the result was "guilty" - the scum might jump on it. This, regardless or Lemming's credibility, or mine, I think that it would be best if I were to go second.

Why have you hinted that the lemming is scum, and implied he be lynched quickly when you know that there is a possibility of having different cop sanities?

Both Lemming and TS can't be scum, but I just can't decide which of them looks more scummy at the moment.

[Sir Tornado]

By the way, we are lynching one of Zoneace and SirT tomorrow. Preferably ZONEACE

What do you mean by "inventing" a contradiction? There was a clear contradiction.

[Sir Tornado]

On TS issue, I don't think TS has much chance of coming up town at all. If she comes up cop, mafia would have messed up big time because that would mean The Fonz would be scum... (and, catching a Fonz-scum would be a tremendous coup of the town if that happens)

Vote Toaster Strudel

[Sir Tornado]

I agree with Ether... (TS was already lynched when she posted that)

[Sir Tornado]

Setael... You are dead.

BM. Did you miss ZONEACE directing the Doc last night? Didn't hear anything on that from you... What MoS said was much less directive than ZONEACE. K-scope tried to direct the vig at the end of day 1 too. No comment on that from you either. And, remind me why directing power roles is bad too.

Ether, what exactly do you find scummy in my post?

[Sir Tornado]

Setael... You are dead.

BM. Did you miss ZONEACE directing the Doc

last night

? Didn't hear anything on that from you... What MoS said was much less directive than ZONEACE. K-scope tried to direct the vig at the end of day 1 too. No comment on that from you either. And, remind me why directing power roles is bad too.

Ether, what exactly do you find scummy in my post?

Docs perform their protections at night, you know...

[Sir Tornado]

EBWOP, I suppose I should have said "for" last night there...

[Sir Tornado]

JDodge, did you actually have a case against White on day 1 or were you just bluffing?

vote MoS

[Sir Tornado]

I had a case. Not relevant enough for me to post

And yet, all you did on D1 was to push a lynch based on an irrelevant case?

I find MoS much scummier than ZONEACE (in fact, I don't think ZONEACE is scummy after having my discussion with him on D1). I think some of the early TS posts regarding MoS border on scum distancing from each other too.

What I feel is, that MoS has been trying to scum link with me today, like his post 1383, where he goes:

That's pretty scummy, but what happened to being suspicious of Zorg/BM? I'm pretty sure there is a much better case for them to be scum atm.

The "pretty scummy" part was some post which I posted yesterday pointed out by Ether (who still hasn't explained how it was scummy). I don't like the way MoS simply says it is scummy (when I don't think it is) and then tries to deflect attention from it. It seems like a subtle ploy to take me down with him if he is scum.

ZONEACE, your idea regarding directing the doctor was a bad idea. The doctor had to basically guess who the scum were targeting last night, and it just turned out that you guessed right and the doctor guessed wrong. You did nothing great in guessing correct -- the probability was 50-50, and neither does that mean that you will necessarily guess correct the next time. Quit discussing that topic.

[Sir Tornado]

MoS didn't have a wagon on him at that point. I suppose that doesn't completely negate it, but...eh. Personally, I'm almost always like that.

Read what I wrote more carefully.

[Sir Tornado]

I don't think this is a parallel. If JDodge did what I attacked him for every game, I'd have no choice but to tune my scumdar accordingly, and I'd be agitated but look into your statement. (Colin has actually said that this is against JDodge's metagame.) Keep in mind that MoS has asserted that he does defend ZONEACE in every game.

I think JDodge does play like he is playing right now most of the time. He tends to lurk a lot and accuse someone of being scum without much explanation even when he is town (this tends to scare people playing with him the first time, but that is losing it's sting each time he does this). He did that recently in a Quicklynch Nightless game where he got lynched for doing this and came up town.

I haven't been with JDodge in a game where he was scum, but from scumchat experiences with JDodge, he tends to be a bit more forceful as scum (although that meta will most probably not be valid here)

Tornado--I'll admit that you did unvote in 1209, with only a votecount and Erg0's confusion in between, but...eh. The post also acknowledges that you've been wondering about sanity yourself. I find it bizarre that a towngoer's initial reaction would be to trust the fishy, fishy cop who claimed her guilty before the counterclaiming claimed his innocent, without any other comments.

I think you missed the point in those series of posts there...

I originally voted Lemming because he was contradicting himself. Later, on closer reading I found out TS was contradicting herself too, and I thought (think) it would be very unlikely both of them would be scum and unvoted Lemming.

And, had TS claimed Lemming guilty when I posted it?

[Sir Tornado]

I don't like the way MoS simply says it is scummy (when I don't think it is) and then tries to deflect attention from it. It seems like a subtle ploy to take me down with him if he is scum.

MoS didn't have a wagon on him at that point. I suppose that doesn't completely negate it, but...eh. Personally, I'm almost always like that.

Read what I wrote more carefully.

No. Spell it out.

MoS was trying to deflect attention from my wagon, not his own wagon.

[Sir Tornado]

...huh? My mental reaction to those posts was confusion--note that Lemming had claimed his result after TS, disregard WIFOM paranoia in favor of common sense, think (though I got here late enough for Fonz's claim). I am not understanding your train of thought.

What part of mt train of thought do you not understand?

My vote on Lemming was based entirely on the two Lemming quotes I had put in that post. Read those two excerpts in isolation and then compare them with each other and you'll get the reason for my vote on him.

[Sir Tornado]

I believe Flare is IH's alt?

MoS's defence seems fine.

unvote

[Sir Tornado]

This is so weird...

wait, yamahako's in this game?????

unvote vote yamahako why are there SOOOO many lurkers all over the place?

Yes. He posted on the last page. Did you not notice?

[Sir Tornado]

ok this is rather lame... keyboard not working. using on screen keyboard for mafia too tedious.

[Sir Tornado]

@Sir T- I had that same problem a few weeks ago (as Zindy will tell you). I rang my mate and he told me how to fix it. I can't actually remember the intricacies of it, but did you by any chance, hold your finger on the 'Shift' key for longer than 8 seconds?

Er, no. As it turned out, the batteries needed to be replaced (home keyboard is wireless)

I don't think BooKitty is scum at the moment, mainly because her wagon seems to have grown too quickly for a scum wagon. I also agree with her post accusing Setael of being scum (and, no BM, it was not OMGUS, as she was quoting an earlier post) based on Toaster Strudel's behaviour.

I am think MoS might be a scum too, which is mainly based again on Toaster Strudel attacking him over a reason that wasn't really solid and not really persuing that attack.

MoS, you've been saying that you defend ZONEACE's play regardless of allignment... is there any game where you have defended his play when you were town? BM has already pointed out a game where you were scum and defended ZONEACE's play.

[Sir Tornado]

Ok... just got up to date with all the claims.

I don't think Ether's post could be viewed, by any angle as a mason claim. I think it is in sync with the language she usually uses, and saw it as a acknowledgment that she did indeed take in the claim and was still not unvoting, so, yeah, I think Simenon outed Ether for no reason at all.

Also, I am curious to know why Simenon thinks BooKie shouldn't have claimed. Why on earth would you not want to claim when you are on -1 and likely to be lynched?

On the untrustworthy mason, I think it is possible that the untrustworthy mason is a mafia traitor, who can't communicate with mafia at night, but still knows who the mafia are, and who wins with the mafia. That would be much more balanced compared to the mason being a full member of the mason group (which makes no sense as the entire group could be outed during the night talks and could be killed off one by one)

About the vig/Sk issue, the lack of second night kill on N3 is certainly curious. I think it points to presence of a vig. Had there been a SK, then either the SK and mafia both targeted the doctor Ergo (which is kind of stretch), or one of them targeted the person doctor protected (which, I am sure would have been to cop).

The problem is, that neither scum nor the SK would have any incentive to get the cop on N3. The scum were clearly role blocking the cop, hence could use their NK to some other use, and the SK would not have gained anything from killing the cop (cops generally track only the scum), especially when you consider that there was a good chance that the cop would be protected in the first case.

This leaves mostly the possibility that there are 2 scum group, one with the RBer, and other with GF, or something to that effect. But, in such cases, generally when the scum dies, his scum group is mentioned. There was no such mention of any particular scum group when Toaster Strudel died, which makes me think it is more likely that there is only one scum group.

[Sir Tornado]

I think Simenon is trying to bullshit his way out here. I am pretty certain he is the untrustworthy mason.

I want to know from Niv and Ether why they were voting Bookie, more specifically if it was due to inthread reasons or due to night talk reasons.

BooKie, why did you think Ether would pass your views to Sim and Niv?

Setael, why do you think mafia will try to kill the masons?

[Sir Tornado]

Setael, why do you think mafia will try to kill the masons?

Because if they don't and we then manage to lynch the one untrustworthy one, we are left with 3 confirmed masons at end game. Mafia can't risk that. My guess is they will pick off the towniest seeming masons and just hope they don't hit their traitor (or whatever the "untrustworthy" one is). Either way, it makes no sense to be lynching masons right now. If we end up choosing wrong, we have done a huge favor for the mafia by getting rid of one of the confirmed town players. If we choose right, the mafia are then free to take out all the claimed masons without fear of killing one of their own. Any way we choose, we're making the mafia's job easier, so ynching a mason = lose/lose.

This is not even funny. At one hand, you say we shouldn't go after masons and on the other you say that:

"Because if they don't and we then manage to lynch the one untrustworthy one, we are left with 3 confirmed masons at end game."

How on earth do you expect us to do that without going after the masons?

Also, the scum really have no incentive to kill masons if we agree with your plan. They are more likely to kill the cop tonight anyway.

[Sir Tornado]

Regarding the vig/serial killer business: filter Flameaxe's posts and tell me he was a threat. Setael1 had picked up some flak for her guesses about TS's sanity, so I could see her as vigbait.

I am not sure I get you here... Flameaxe was a threat to whom? I don't understand how you discount White as a vig target.

[Sir Tornado]

Also, Sim needs to explain why BooKie claim was bad. He never really explained it.

If your argument was that BooKie claim outed Ether (which it didn't) then it doesn't make sense for you to lay the ground for this to happen in case Boo claimed if you thought she was scum (I am refering here to your cryptic question to Ether regarding her BooKie vote a few pages back, which, according to your own admission linked Ether to masonary after BooKie claim). If you thought BooKie was town, then without the claim, she would have been dead, bad for the town.

Either way Sim, your actions hurt the town even if we buy your argument that BooKie outed Ether (which, I don't think she did).

Why did you do it then?

[Sir Tornado]

I have read page 76. What about it? Also, a question never becomes "outdated".

[Sir Tornado]

vote simenon

[Sir Tornado]

Simenon, why did you think town BooKitty would not claim on -1 when you said: "That is a terrible claim".

I know you have claimed to have changed your mind since then but I want to know what you were thinking when you said that. You haven't really answered this till now.

[Sir Tornado]

Because I felt that she was outing the masons. How many times have I had to explain this?

Ok, Now, Simenon, did you think that this was a game where the allignment of the killed players remained a mystery after they died? If BooKie is a pro-town mason, and she died, lynched by you that is without informing the rest of the town that she were a mason, did you think that we would not know that she was a mason after she died? Explain how lynching BooKie without giving her time to claim would not out the masons after she died if her claiming outed the masons.

And, please don't tell me that you did not think about this. If you did not, then explain why not.

And, why did you make Post 1809 where you said:

Ether, are you thinking what I'm thinking about Bookitty-scum?

yes or no question.

This was supposed to be the post due to which Ether got outed by BooKie claim later on, according to you.

Now, explain how Ether wouldn't have been outed had BooKie been lynched and came up Pro-Town mason. Why did you post that post breadcrumbing Ether as mason anyway?

[Sir Tornado]

I already stated I didn't think that outed ether.

Ok, so, tell me, exactly how did BooKie claim out Ether? I was under the impression that you said that that comment of yours linked Ether to masonary after Boo claim, but it seems that I have misunderstood you. Would you correct me then?

[Sir Tornado]

Because I felt it provided a reason for why ether and I were wagonning bookitty, a reason that wasn't necessarily there before and something both of us could easily have denied.

That doesn't actually explain how Bookie claim outed Ether, which i asked in the post you quoted...

Simenon, please try to be a bit less vague.

[Sir Tornado]

If I were looking to out Ether, why would I be so brief?

I do not think you, being a scum mason, knew that you were outing ether by claiming.

That doesn't actually explain how Bookie claim outed Ether, which i asked in the post you quoted...

Simenon, please try to be a bit less vague.

[Sir Tornado]

You do realize that you are hitting me with these questions ad nauseam?

As I said countless times, outing ether reveals one of the confirmed innocents.

And as I said, I believe your claim outed ether indirectly. Not only have I answered that specific question, but I have certainly referenced that in almost every post so far.

Simenon, this is getting crazy. If you are sick of constantly getting the same question the freaking ANSWER THEM. You have NEVER answered this question, and me and BooKitty have asked this at least 5 times between us, and someone else, i am sure has asked it to you too.

Please explain how Boo claim outed Ether. Please don't say "It outed Ether indirectly". Explain

how

[Sir Tornado]

because it gave the town a reason for me to be asking ether about her opinion that neither of us could deny effectively i mean have you even bothered to read any of my posts

This totally contradicts what you said here:

And, why did you make Post 1809 where you said:

Ether, are you thinking what I'm thinking about Bookitty-scum?

yes or no question.

This was supposed to be the post due to which Ether got outed by BooKie claim later on, according to you.

Now, explain how Ether wouldn't have been outed had BooKie been lynched and came up Pro-Town mason. Why did you post that post breadcrumbing Ether as mason anyway?

It wouldn't, sirt, because I felt nobody would spot that ether communication. Bookitty, who is even a mason, certainly didn't. Who's to say who would?

I already stated I didn't think that outed ether.

That WAS the post due to which Ether was indirectly outed. Why the heck did you lie in 1936 then? Ether was not outed due to BooKie claim, but due to your 1809. This is what your 1951 effectively means.

[Sir Tornado]

So, why DID you make the communication in the first place? If BooKitty get's lynched, her role as mason will be revealed regardless her allignment. Don't you think, in that case, you were the one who outed Ether?

[Sir Tornado]

I think Simenon's behaviour makes sense once he admits that his attempt at communicating with Ether in thread was a mistake. But, I neither understand nor like how he tried to cover up his mistake by blaming BooKitty for outing Ether rather than admitting his mistake then and there. It doesn't send good vibes to me.

[Sir Tornado]

I think it had something to do with red herrings and such.

Part of it was two people (at least), Setael and MOS's, claiming of "The Scum Mason", which to me is not a legitimate aspect of this game yet. First, we don't know that there is a scum mason or not - so taking that as an assumption and working off of it leads to false conclusions.

Well, I think I said right from day 1 that a scum mason is not a possibility. It makes the whole mason concept sort of void if the entire scum group knows who all the masons are. Now, if the scum mason couldn't communicate with the rest of the scum group, then that is a possibility which sits well with the setup.

Secondly, we don't know that there would be only one scum mason, if there are any. There could be two, or more, or two from two different scum groups, etc. One might also be a cult recruiter (There is no evidence of a cult recruitor, I am simply pointing out an option).

I can't see more than one untrustworthy mason. We had 5 masons to begin with. 2 untrustworthy masons could make it 40% bad masons. Not a good setup. (add to that the fact that Flameaxe has been revealed as pro-town, so 2 untrustworthy masons mean 50% of current mason group being masons. Doesn't seem possible in the current conditions.

I can't see Patrick mod putting a cult recruiter in this game, I really can't. I think cults will cause imbalance in a game like this.

A lyncher, however, does seem a possibility. I really want to check the voting record of all the masons, whether they have gone after any particular target throughout the game, or something like that.

Anyways, with that in mind, even if there is a mafia scum mason, that knows all of the other masons, that huts the town... how? The masons are not cleared, so in effect they are jsut a group of players who can night talk. their night talking does not affect their alignments.

They are not, suddenly, a group of people to be picked off: Why would mafia pick off uncleared masons? It gives the town a great red herring to go after. Meanwhile, mafia have a group of people who they know are most likely NOT power roles, and can focus on others instead.

In my mind, the masons are a subset of the whole town with a known number of anti-town elements. This makes them more confirmable than the rest of the town. This helps.

Another thing is: I don't know who the doc protected last night, but it's not unreasonable to think that he protected the only claimed power role still alive in the game, correct?

The mafia would have no reason to target a powerrole they've rendered useless already, and the vig would have no reason to target me, which means that there are two night actinos, only one of which is accoutnable for. This is why I was suspicous that the other nightkill was from an SK: The sk might have tried a kill on me thinking the mafia would also try a kill on me which would override any doctors.

Anyways, it's why I Was suspicious of the person who was pretty sure there was a vig.

I think you would be right to say that the doc protected you last night. I can't see anything else making more sense from Doc's POV.

But, have you thought about why the SK would possibly want to kill the cop? The standard traditional cops don't get a guilty on serial killers. They get guilty only on mafia. So, it makes no sense for a serial killer to try to kill you. Especially when the pro-town casualty list is so much more than scum casualty list. (btw, I think I was the person who said I was pretty sure it was a vig)

[Sir Tornado]

Anyways, with that in mind, even if there is a mafia scum mason, that knows all of the other masons, that huts the town... how? The masons are not cleared, so in effect they are jsut a group of players who can night talk. their night talking does not affect their alignments.

They are not, suddenly, a group of people to be picked off: Why would mafia pick off uncleared masons? It gives the town a great red herring to go after. Meanwhile, mafia have a group of people who they know are most likely NOT power roles, and can focus on others instead.

Hmm... I seem to have misunderstood this point.

I agree with you there. I don't think the scum would go on hitting the masons until we have got the untrustworthy mason.

But this again has problems. The scum certainly would know more about the untrustworthy mason than we do. At least they would know if the untrustworthy mason is a scum aligned or a neutral aligned role. I think scum's actions will depend on that knowledge.

If it is scum aligned (and they don't know who it is) then they will probably leave the masons alone. If they have no information about the mason, which, I think would mean a neutrally aligned mason -- which is most certainly likely to be either a lyncher, or, more less probably a serial killer (because I can't see any other anti-town neutrally aligned roles) -- then I would expect the scum to go after the masons first. (because, obviously he is a bigger threat to them, especially if it is a lyncher)

[Sir Tornado]

Elmo: I think BooKitty is likely town. I find her reactions towards Simenon very similar to my own and quite sincere at that. I don't really understand why all the other masons seem to think Boo as scum.

Also, let me ask you: Have you ever seen a cop get guilty on a SK in a normal game?

[Sir Tornado]

Ok, it seems I was mistaken in assuming that SKs can't be investigated by the cop. I had thought for some reason that a FBI Agent was the only one who got guilty on SKs (as it turned out after I read the wiki, I was completely wrong)

[Sir Tornado]

What is spin doctoring?

Taking the facts and making them mean what you want them to be.

ZONEACE: What do you think on the BooKitty issue? Who do you think is the untrustworthy mason?

Who do you think is scum at the moment?

[Sir Tornado]

Bookitty, how is miller untrustworthy? It is a perfectly trustworthy townie role.

[Sir Tornado]

Bookitty, how is miller untrustworthy? It is a perfectly trustworthy townie role.

Miller comes up guilty on investigation, but isn't guilty. That's one possible reading of "untrustworthy". Since I was ruling out the possibility of an outright scum mason, it left only a few possibilities in my view. I didn't think of a traitor, which is ironic considering, but I did think of an SK or a miller mason, both of which are common and seemed highly possible, as interpretations of "untrustworthy."

Lyncher? Survivor?

[Sir Tornado]

I cam across this while re-reading yesterday, the post 822 by White

Aimee: Has contributed a lot when she has posted but hasn't posted that much. Prob town.

Sim: Tunnelvisioned and seems to want to appease mass majority. Likely anti town.

TS: Lurker, unhelpful, attempts to confuse things that aren't confusing. Likely anti town.

I had been thinking of

Fonz: Semi Lurker. Pops in here and then. I'd say he's right in the middle. When he does post there are usually a good point or two in there but not as good as Aimee. Likely town.

Jdodge: Lurker, unhelpful, pushing my wagon without a case (unless you show me one, you don't have one). Likely anti town.

Ether: Semi lurker. I've generally appreciated many of her posts until just recently when she seemed to overconfuse my posts and thoughts on her. I'm guessing she took it as a personal attack, which it wasn't. Seems to be buddying up to lurkers which I can't see as a protown strategy. Likely anti town.

Sir T: Hasn't really contributed much. Seems more interested in proving a point or showing that he's right than actually trying to find scum. However, i'm in another game with him and he's doing the same thing so i'm taking this as a playstyle difference. Due to the number of scum i'd have to put him in the town pile

MoS: I've found myself agreeing with many posts by him, he genuinely seems to be seeking scum. Likely town.

Yama: Continues to be a wildcard. When he posts, his posts are generally helpful but he doesn't post all that much. Seems there needs to be pressure on him to get him to contribute. The feeling I get when reading his contributing posts is sincerety so i'll pop him in the town pile.

Lemming: Sadly i'm completely unable to get a read on this guy which means I really should do an isolation read through but i'm lazy and don't want to, so I won't yet.

Zoneface: Everyone knows how I feel about him.

Zorg: Another one that i'm having trouble getting a read on. I mean him and lemming but just seem to have a lot of fluff and little real substance. That's just the overall feeling I get when reading his posts so i'll just have to say IGMEOY.

Setael: I like that Seta is contributing so much but I find myself not really agreeing with all she says. However it does look genuine so i'll say likely town.

Flare: Lurker, unhelpful, runs long posts but doesn't really seem to say much. Likely scum.

Kscope: Lurker, unhelpful, not searching for scum, tunnelvisioned. Likely scum.

Beastly: It seems I have trouble getting reads from all the "townsperson"s in the game because beastly also falls under the catagories of Lemming and Zorg. However what I can do is rank them, scummiest: Zorg, Lemming, Beastly least scummy. Beastly seems more sincere.

Niv: I don't get this guy, I disagree with what he did but can understand that he thought it would help catch scum. I think he jumped the gun and ended up outing 2 masons. Then after that whole thing calmed down he practically disappeared, where? No clue. I would like to see a lot more from this guy but I guess i'd have to put him in likely town.

Erg0: Not too much to see here, of his posts i've appreciated most of them. He seems to actively be looking to progress the game and move past the stupid things some of us are doing. Seems like a protown thing to do so i'll call him likely town.

Zeppo: Zorg, Lemming, Zeppo, Beastly.

Booboo: I can't put my finger on whether he's another zoneface or scum. Due to my quantity of scum so far i'll call him likely town as well, but only barely.

Flame: Oh, he's playing this game? Post more. Likely town I guess.

So far, his reads have been spot on. I won't be surprised if there are 1/2 scumbags in the JDodge/KScope/Setael2 group.

[Sir Tornado]

Yes OMGUSsy vibes. You tried to make a case on me,

then i bit back

, and you felt you had little choice but to keep fighting back. Thats what i mean by OMGUSsy vibes.

When you attack someone simply because they are putting pressure on you

. Its a defence mechanism.

If you were town, you would ignore your dislike of me as an individual

, and read your case on me again, and my responses. Then list what you have, and ill address it.

Vote Battle Mage

I think this puts him on -2.

[Sir Tornado]

Behold!

Zeppo (6) -- Ether, Setael,

Mastermind of Sin, JDodge, Niv, Flameaxe

Bold implying those players are scum.

I don't get this... Simenon knew Flameaxe and Niv were both masons.

[Sir Tornado]

Right after BooKie claimed.

[Sir Tornado]

Also, BM needs to claim.

[Sir Tornado]

unvote

I think I believe BM's vanilla claim. I don't think he is scum at the moment. This is not how I would expect scum to behave.

[Sir Tornado]

Setael, I am obviously not going to tell you how I expect scum to behave. That would make scum not behave like that in the future.

I will only say that if BM comes out scum I would be very surprised with the way he handled the whole thing after being put on -1. Meh, I think he's going to be lynched anyway, so we'll see if I was correct.

[Sir Tornado]

Wait, I don't understand BM's logic regarding his not being sure about me anymore. Becaused I bailed out? What does that mean?

On one hand, you accuse people driving your BW of being scum, and on the other, you say you are not sure about me because I unvoted? Wtf is this logic?

[Sir Tornado]

So, identifying a possible town tell is scummy? Isn't that what you are implying?

[Sir Tornado]

Also, BM, in your 2081, you unvoted kj. In 2088, you voted me. The only post I made between the two posts was one asking explanation from you (2084).

So, what did you find scummy in 2084?

If you didn't find anything scummy in that particular post, why did you not vote me in 2081 itself, rather than vote me after I asked clarification for your logic?

[Sir Tornado]

I am not going to hammer BM, for the simple reason that BM is not scum.

[Sir Tornado]

MoS, what did you think of Sir T's posts before BM was lynched, as well as BM's last minute vote for Sir T?

Well... his last minute vote was sort of irrelevant. It was quite obvious he was going to be lynched at that point. So, it's a null tell. Too many WIFOMy things around it if you do not know my alignment.

Also, in analyzing BM's reaction and his claim, I missed the possibility that he was the mafia roleblocker, and considered only a normal scum goon. I think I would have done more or less the same thing had I been in BM's place as the scum roleblocker.

See, what I was expecting from BM was a DGB type power role claim (Vig seemed likely). The real power role has to counter claim in order to lynch the scum. Now, because the scum had the RB and because the doctor was dead (hence they wouldn't have needed the RB on cop) they could have easily RBed the power role and hence minimized it's effectiveness.

However, as he was a mafia roleblocker, I suppose his claim and reaction fits, as a claim and a counter claim would have only given the town one more confirmed townie today, which was clearly bad from mafia POV, and they wouldn't have got a chance to RB the role with BM dead.

[Sir Tornado]

Also, MoS, after spending 4 days convincing everyone ZONEACE's play is not scummy, how do you come to conclusion that he is scum on day 5?

[Sir Tornado]

There are numerous things in that post worded in such a way that it fits with my memories of Sir T-scum

Like?

As far as I recollect, I haven't ever been scum in any game with you playing before this (the only one near enough is Masons and Monks which you modded).

[Sir Tornado]

i essentially assume that if i've only played with someone fairly often when they are one alignment every time, that anything outside of what they would normally act like is what they would do as scum or otherwise

Ok...

but still, what "memories" of Sir T-scum?

[Sir Tornado]

Why would the real power role necessarily counter claim? Especially a vigilante, who can take care of the problem on their own that night if they don't get a lynch.

Still. With a RB around, a goon would have claimed power role, IMO. Especially when it was so obvious he was going to be lynched.

[Sir Tornado]

Hey Sir T who is scum?

MoS is scum. Setael 2 is probably scum too JDodge is scum.

Korejora doesn't seem to be scum at all. Zoneace is probably not scum. Elmo is in not sure category (depending on number of scum). The rest are masons who are most probably not in the actual scum group.

[Sir Tornado]

I think you are scum due to elimination processes. I find it highly unlikely that Kore is scum due to her part in setting the BM lynch in motion and Zoneace, I've maintained from D1 isn't scum based on meta amongst other things. Between Elmo and you, I find you scummier. Perhaps this a playstyle thing, because I was convinced Setael 1 was scummy before she died too, however I have you above Elmo and below MoS and JDodge.

[Sir Tornado]

I find it odd that suddenly Sir T thinks I'm scum, and his only reason is "elimination process". I think if he was a townie, he would've come up with SOME kind of a case. I know that whenever I'm a townie, since I don't know anything I can always come up with a few cases that turn out to be totally wrong, but nonetheless it's better than having NOTHING but process of elimination on someone, which is likely to only be done by scum who's afraid to make BS cases that are full of holes. Easier to just throw out process of elimination scum lists so you don't have to defend cases that you know are completely fabricated. Townies don't fear this since, though they may be wrong, they aren't lying.

This is fairly interesting post and mostly a correct one. Except that I don't do the "give a case" thing. You are free to check out all the games I have been town as well as scum (there's a fairly large sample for you to check out and confirm this). I just don't do it. It's not my style of play.

[Sir Tornado]

Setael, I was scum in Mini 486 (ABR's game?)

Also, it was Day 1. You can't eliminate people from being scum on day 1.

I haven't done this before on forum because I haven't lived this far into the game as town. I have a penchant of getting NKed N2 or N3.

Also, I haven't voted or fosed anyone yet. My list of suspicion was reply to Ether asking me who I thought scum was. I don't need any "case" to suspect someone. I need that to convince you to vote for the person, but I am not doing that atm.

[Sir Tornado]

Also, we are not going to lynch Simenon, or any other confimed mason for that matter.

[Sir Tornado]

Elimination is a strong reason. To quote Sherlock Holmes: "When you have eliminated the impossible, the alternative, however improbable must be the truth".

Applying the above statement in this scenario will be a bit extreme, I agree. But my inferences aren't so extreme as in the example either.

[Sir Tornado]

Kore, what numbers do you mean? I am operating on the assumption that there are 5 scum, no member of masonary is full scum and that we have a vig rather than a SK. If that is the case then we have the game wraped anyway. All we have to do is make sure mafia doesn't get to kill all the masons and everyone else is lynched or bumped off. That is entirely possible to achieve.

[Sir Tornado]

What meta?

Check out the links someone gave to ZONEACE's games.

[Sir Tornado]

Setael, a mafia traitor does not gain anything from bussing here. We aren't going to lynch Sim even if he claims traitor. That's just wasting a lynch because traitors usually don't need to be lynched. We have 6 other people who contain all the scum. They are the ones who we should go after.

So, (this is to Niv mainly) if you think Sim is a traitor, stop trying to lynch him.

[Sir Tornado]

Kore, of course there is a magical formula. It's called balancing the setup.

How many scum do you think we might have based on what we know? 3 more seems to be good balance wise given that this is a 22 player game. Do you think we could have more or less scum?

Traitor is as per my understanding, usually a townie who wins with the scum. Some variants allow mafia to recruit traitors and thus making them full mafia members, but I can't see how this can be accomodated if one of masons is a traitor.

[Sir Tornado]

vote MoS

I am fine with a MoS lynch.

[Sir Tornado]

Bookitty, what do you think of Sir T's play toward you during the whole mason debate if you look at it from the angle of him being scum who thought YOU were likely his traitor?

If I were scum and thought BooKie was acting scummy enough to lynch and get away with, wouldn't I have tried to lynch her before she had claimed (she was on -1 at a point), which was before BooKie traitor scenario came to forefront?

[Sir Tornado]

Though that's pure WIFOM

Bullshit. This is an excellent example of the misuse of the term WIFOM.

if you're scum, regardless of the fact that she hadn't claimed yet - you'd know there are unclaimed masons out there, any of whom could be the traitor. So no, you might not want to accidentally hammer your traitor (since before all the masons claimed, it could've been anyone not in the regular mafia group). Until the masons all claimed, mafia actually wouldn't want to lynch anyone before they had a chance to claim since they might just be counting on the mason traitor to out all the masons for them. I didn't think of this until just now, but the mafia has had several nights to talk it over, so I'm sure they've covered this topic thoroughly.

You will notice, that it was me who brought up the idea of the untrustworthy mason being a mafia traitor. If I were really a mafia, and if I knew about existence of mafia traitor, I would not bring it to the notice of town, since that role is not that common. And, no, this is not a WIFOM, since I am not arguing that I am town because I introduced traitor to the discussion. I am just saying that if you think I am scum, you should discard the possibility of the presence of a mafia traitor, because I really had no reason to bring that role into discussion had I been scum and knew about the role's presence.

Even that argument isn't WIFOM.

[Sir Tornado]

I've been looking through the large games in this forum with about the same number of players. It kind of wavered between 5-6 and occasionally down to 4, barring two-mafia setups, and often had a serial killer. So... I don't see how we have 5 mafia in this setup. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just a little uncomfortable with how sure you are of it.

You are forgetting the possible mafia traitor. Also, we know that mafia had at least 2 power roles (Godfather as well as the Roleblocker)

See, what I am banking on is that no members of masonary are full members of mafia. Then we are left with 7. If we have a total of 6 mafia, that means 4 out of 7 remaining non masons are scum, which I don't feel is realistic looking at the current situation. However, my original point is valid even if we have 6 scum rather than 5.

Who says the mafia knew about the traitor from the beginning? I think it is more likely they know as much about the "untrustworthy" mason as the rest of us do. Doesn't really make sense for their role PM to say "Oh and there are a bunch of masons in this game but one of them is a traitor." Possible, but makes more sense that they'd be left in the dark the same as we were. So your argument goes away since it's based on the assumption that if you were mafia you'd have known about the existence of a traitor. Why were you assuming the mafia would know that?

You did the assuming. Not me

you'd know there are unclaimed masons out there, any of whom could be the traitor. So no, you might not want to accidentally hammer your traitor (since before all the masons claimed, it could've been anyone not in the regular mafia group)

[Sir Tornado]

What I'm saying is that this argument relies entirely upon the mafia being informed there's a traitor:

Ugh, no. Your argument in your post 2207 (in attempt to portray my argument as WIFOM) relies on mafia being informed about the traitor. You basically argued in that post that I am mafia and BooKie is the mafia traitor, and I did not push BooKie's lynch because I knew she was the mafia traitor. I merely carried that argument forward in 2208.

[Sir Tornado]

Yes. Except that the assumption about the presence of mafia traitor was made, as far as I recollect, was made after the BooKitty wagon died down. Not before it. So, when I did not vote for BooKitty,

there was no assumption about presence of mafia traitor

. You were hence saying that if I am scum, I knew about the presence of mafia traitor, since there wasn't any assumption to go by at that time.

[Sir Tornado]

I hadn't noticed the Oct 7 post. Also, even if you had speculated it, it still wasn't being assumed the way it is now, so that point is immaterial.

[Sir Tornado]

Both. Sir T has gone into hiding so there's not much more info from him but I have no reason to think he's town. JDodge's attack of me could've been intended to pull Sir T out of the spotlight. I can definitely see them being scum together.

How do you mean by hiding? I have responded to everything you posted till the last page.

[Sir Tornado]

That's right.

MoS needs just 4 more votes now.

[Sir Tornado]

Zoneace, BooKie makes a valid point re your defence of MoS. I think she has pushed Sim and Setael much harder and longer in the past. Why did you not object to those like you are objecting to MoS wagon now? Can you not give a clear cut answer rather than avoiding answering for once?

[Sir Tornado]

How do you mean by recent actions MoS? Pretty much the only thing I am doing is saying you are scum and I have been doing it the whole day. There isn't anything recent about it.

[Sir Tornado]

Ok I am going to claim now. I am the vig.

This may look odd timed, but I think it is necessary I make myself a mafia NK target to make sure none of the masons, whose survival I deem extremely necessary for the town to win, are taken out on N5. And, I am willing to take a straw poll among everyone for the night kill. Also, I think that mafia would have figured this out already by now.

Who should I NK tonight? Right now, I am looking at one of MoS/JDodge/Setael/Elmo.

I would also like to hear your thoughts on White, and why you think mafia would want to kill White on N1. (because I killed Flameaxe)

[Sir Tornado]

Obviously, I killed Setael1, Missed the deadline, and killed K-Scope. In fact, if you read D4, you'll notice that I warned I would kill K-Scope.

Seatael2: You say I am SK because the timing of my claim doesn't make sense for pro-town vig? But does it make sense for SK?

[Sir Tornado]

Flameaxe vig was lurker vig.

[Sir Tornado]

Also, MoS, I disagree with you regards to masons.

The central point in town's policy should be that we should try to get rid of everyone who is not a mason. That way, we can win the game.

Assuming mafia traitor scenario, town doesn't have to lynch the untrustworthy mason.

Setael, claiming power role for no reason is suicidal for a SK, especially with doctor dead. The optimal play for the sk is to remain out of limelight. If I were SK, I would have lost whatever chance I had of winning the game once I claim vig.

I am curious to know how my last ditch defence of BM fits into your "Tornado is SK theory".

Also, a SK is anti-scum too. So, if the scum feels I am a SK, then I am as much dead as I would be if scum beleive the vig claim. It makes no sense for me to claim vig right now if I am a sk (and, no this is not WIFOM)

[Sir Tornado]

By recent actions I mean this whole day. My read on you was made at the beginning of the day. You have been acting fairly unreasonable today. You have yet to even present a case against me, but you've been trying to get me lynched regardless. It feels like you're trying to ride whatever momentum BooKitty creates without having to do any work yourself. That way, when I die and come up town, the responsibility falls on her, not you.

This isn't true. I was voting you before BooKitty was. Besides, I can't see how I could shift the blame to a mason, who I think we agreed not to lynch at all.

Flameaxe came up mason. Why would a vig be more likely to kill him than an SK would? I've never been an SK so I don't know how they decide their targets, but aren't they just as likely to want to get rid of scummy players as players who seem protown? Am I missing something?

Hindsight is a great tool. But, do you think I had any indication that Flameaxe was mason, or even pro town when I vigged him?

As a serial killer, you want the game to slow down as much as possible. You need the lurkers around if you are a SK in order to get easy lynches at the end of the game.

As a SK, you need to balance the rest of the factions properly. At any given time, neither town, nor scum should have the upper hand. Getting rid of a scummy player on N1 isn't what a SK would want to do... especially with multiple cop claims, one of which looked false (and hence an indication of a scum being caught soon) so, of the Flameaxe and K-Scope kills, I think a SK would make the K-Scope kill (because, at that point, the SK would want to get rid of one scum to try to balance the two factions), but the Flameaxe kill was pointless for SK.

I also point you towards my posts earlier on Day 1 heavily pushing for a SK mason, and then, dropping the theory altogether after D1. Why? Because, after N1, I knew that there wasn't any other killing role apart from me.

Also, do you have any specific reason for suspecting that I am a SK apart from the fact that you thought that I was scum when I claimed? You can argue howsoever you may like about my claim being uncalled for and ill-timed, but the truth is, had I claimed vig after being asked to claim (and being heavily bandwagoned), you still wouldn't have believed the claim.

And, for all it's worth:

I breadcrumbed vig in this day 1 post

Ok, let's break it down into smaller questions:

1. Do you agree that ZONEACE's scumtells are extremely obvious?
2. Do you agree that ZONEACE is an experienced player?
3. Do you agree that ZONEACE is not stupid?

I believe that all of these questions can be answered "yes" with some certainty. Unless you can come up with another factor that I'm missing, the logical conclusion is that ZONEACE is aware of what he's doing. WIFOM applies to questions of motivation, whereas these are questions that can be answered definitively based on available facts.

I agree with this post. I think point 1 and 2 are indeed correct, while I am not sure on whether ZONEACE is stupid or not, although is is probably not. What I am sure of is that ZONEACE does not play

V

ery well as townie (probably

I

ntentionally) which is why I think whatever he is doing in this

G

ame is a null tell right now.

I softclaimed my knowledge about mafia's N1 kill in this day 4 post

[Sir Tornado]

That was weird!

[Sir Tornado]

I don't think there is a full scum in masonary.

Does anyone remember D1 post where Toaster Strudel reached the (false) conclusion about White being a mason? That is the only reason why I see White being NKed. He definitely did not fit the ideal N1 kill profile. I had originally thought he was killed because he suspected the real mafia, but that theory has been hit for a six now that K-Scope turned up town, and the only people now living he suspected are Setael2, ZONEACE and JDodge.

Have you wondered why the mafia hasn't hit any masons yet? The reason is, that they were too busy killing power roles. The only night they had a reasonable chance of killing a mason was on N1, when they hit White. At that point in time, both Niv AND Simenon were outed. Why would mafia not kill one of them?

I think that mafia believed that either Niv or Simenon was the untrustworthy mason, and they were reluctant to kill either of them on N1. What this also does, is that it points out that mafia did not know the members of masonary, which means, that the untrustworthy mason is not a full member of the mafia; but, mafia's reluctance to kill either Simenon or Niv on N1 also points to the fact that they did not want the untrustworthy mason to die, which further indicates that the untrustworthy mason is a mafia traitor.

Having viewed White killing from this POV, I think JDodge could be town, especially given the extreme wagoning JDodge led for no reason at all against White. It sort of put him in an awkward position on D2.

I just think we should lynch Elmo instead of JDodge today. I think Elmo/Setael2/MoS are the final scum.

[Sir Tornado]

What happens if JDodge comes town? Should I then proceed with vigging MoS/Setael2?

I don't think any of you will lynch Setael2 if I get NKed N5, and she is high in my suspect list, whilst I can totally see Elmo and ZONEACE being lynched by you all.

As far as MoS is concerned, I think the scum anticipated Lemming investigating Toaster Strudel. Look at Toaster's behaviour on D2 when she claimed her "investigation" -- it's as if she felt that investigating Lemming was the only way for her if she were a real cop. I assume she felt Lemming felt similarly (and she was right in this regard). I think that is a null tell.

[Sir Tornado]

I think the scum killed White because of his interactions with TS.

You really think so? TS was more or less on borrowed time at the end of N1. It makes this scenario unlikely.

My reasoning is this: If JDodge is town, then there are at least two scum left out of MoS/ZONEACE/Korejora/Setael2/Elmo. MoS is contributing and if he's scum I think he could be caught. ZONEACE might be scum with JDodge, but I think if ZONEACE were scum and JDodge were town, he'd be on JDodge's wagon at this point. (WIFOM, but that's my opinion.) Korejora, Setael2, and Elmo could all be scum together, in pretty much any combination, and of the three I guess I'm most suspicious of Setael2 and knowing her alignment would be most helpful in figuring out the remaining scum.

You are greatly underestimating MoS here. If he is scum, the last chance town is going to get of catching him is through tonight's vig. After that, town has absolutely no chance of nailing MoS-scum -- not with ZONEACE and Elmo around. If he is scum, and I do not vig him, he wins the game for scum. It is as simple as that. The problem is, that it is more or less true with Setael2 as well, albeit to a lesser extent. Setael2 does get bonus points for being the one to introduce the mafia traitor theory (mafia are more unlikely to introduce such a theory if it were true than town), so, if JDodge comes up town, MoS vig looks as appealing as Setael2 vig.

Ether's argument for clearing MoS is a bit meh. If he comes out scum, Ether is your traitor mason. If he comes up town, Ether is very much likely to be innocent.

For the life in me, I cannot understand need for ZONEACE vig. He doesn't need to be vigged. You don't vig easy lynches. Besides that, he is town. You vig people who are scummy AND notoriously hard to be lynched.

[Sir Tornado]

Ether, Setael is supposed to be scum because, uh, there have to be 3 scum.

ZONEACE is town because he would like to keep up his meta. If he comes up scum here, I am going to try to get him lynched in every game I play with him with this kind of behaviour by referencing this game as meta. And, he will lose his opportunity for an indignant outburst defence. It doesn't do his long term prospects much good if he's behaved like this as scum.

[Sir Tornado]

I'd still like to hear from Sir T why I'm "high on his suspect list". He seems unwilling to anwer that. Bookitty, please don't answer for him.

I have already answered this. Check out our argument on 24th/25th/26th January.

He admitted he has no reason for thinking I'm scum. He was questioned about it and said the only reason he has for wanting to vig me is that there must be 3 scum.

That's a lie. I think I have already explained how I feel about the application of method of elimination to finding out scum (complete with a Sherlock Holmes quote)

The only reason Sir T has to want to vig me is that I suspect him.

More lies.

While you are accusing me of suspecting you of being scum without a valid reason, why exactly am I supposed to be a SK? Because I defended BM? Remember, that was the centerpiece to your accusation for me being scum. You are basing me being SK based on your assumption to me being scum prior to my claim. You can't just carry it forward like that. You doing so is a basis of suspicion.

Ether, leave BooKitty alone; BooKitty, do similar favour to Ether. Simenon is most probably our neutrally aligned/scum mason. I was waiting to see exactly which mason would raise the possibility of a neutrally aligned mason first today, and it turned out to be Simenon.

It feels like people are making a conscious effort to avoid addressing the SirT issue directly, because I seem to be one of a very small group of people that actually noticed his complete lack of analysis today.

MoS: You are saying I lack analysis today. Would you show me exactly where I have "analyzed" anything in this entire game? I don't usually do that sort of thing.

I have been playing exactly like I am now -- albeit less aggressively -- for the past 3-4 days. But, MoS marked me as town based on that. The only different thing I have done today is attack MoS; and he's marked me down as possible scum

because

I attacked him today. This reeks of OMGUS. MoS should know better.

He seems to be depending on you to make his cases for him.

For the last time,

I was voting for you before BooKitty made a case against you!

My vote on you was the first thing I did today; and I haven't moved it since. That BooKitty happened to come across and make a vote on you didn't really influence anything.

JDodge, Elmo, ZONEACE, Korejora, who do you think I should vig?

[Sir Tornado]

Just making a list here:

Vigging recomendations:

Simenon: JDodge
Setael: JDodge/ZONEACE
MoS: JDodge/ZONEACE
Ether: Elmo/JDodge
BooKitty: Setael/MoS
Korejora: ?
JDodge: ?
Elmo: ?
Niv: ?
ZONEACE: ?

Is this list correct? Or have I missed anyone's views?

[Sir Tornado]

The town should be deciding who Sir T vigs. Not Sir T.

I think that's you right now, if you avoid being lynched.

[Sir Tornado]

ZONEACE, would you enlighten us behind the logic of vigging a claimed mason?

Simenon: JDodge
Setael: JDodge/ZONEACE
MoS: JDodge/ZONEACE
Ether: Elmo/JDodge/ZONEACE
BooKitty: Setael/MoS
ZONEACE: Korejora/Setael/Bookitty
Korejora: ?
JDodge: ?
Elmo: ?
Niv: ?

[Sir Tornado]

But if we're going to keep the masons alive just because they're masons (despite the fact that one of them is scum and its the one i mentioned) then fine remove the mason from my list.

How do you know that one of them is

scum

?

Is that list saying I want a JDodge or Zoneace vig? I certainly never said that.

I would pick Elmo.

Corrected.

Vigging recomendations.

Simenon: JDodge
Setael: Elmo
MoS: JDodge/ZONEACE
Ether: Elmo/JDodge/ZONEACE
BooKitty: Setael/MoS/(anyone else?)
ZONEACE: Korejora/Setael/

Bookitty

Korejora: ?
JDodge: ?
Elmo: ?
Niv: ?

I would also like you to list vigs you are dead opposed to (apart from yourself of course)

So far, I have:

Ether: MoS/Setael
Setael: MoS
MoS: Setael (?)
Korejora: MoS/Setael (?)
Bookitty: ?
Simenon: ?
JDodge: ?
Niv: ?
Elmo: ?
ZONEACE: ?

[Sir Tornado]

Bah, it looks as if I and Bookitty are in minority here. I'll keep my word about what I said when I claimed though.

[Sir Tornado]

I am not going to vig masons. That would be just stupid.

[Sir Tornado]

im all for not lynching Jdodge, simply out of self preservation because i seem to be number 2 on the vig list behind him.


and seeing as how i'm not scum staying alive is my goal.

OH, THE HORROR!

Do think this is survivor or something ZONEACE?

[Sir Tornado]

Er... Disregard the horror comment.

[Sir Tornado]

Ok, so,

unvote, vote JDodge

MoS, you are wrong about me not voting without reason. I did it to White on D1, and then to you on D2. Also, please note that I am not the only one suspecting people without reason. Setael, you and JDodge are all suspecting me as sk without a valid reason to do so.

[Sir Tornado]

ZONEACE, but is staying alive more important than getting a lynch? No lynch, which may avoid you being vigged, at this stage gives us no information. Do you think that would be good for the town?

[Sir Tornado]

At this point, I suspect a survivor ZONEACE.

FYI: This is not what "obvious town", which you have been maintaining you are, do ZONEACE.

[Sir Tornado]

How do you expect to win without lynching anyone? Also, I suspect you would be lynched tomorrow. Perhaps vigging would avoid the, well, drama.

[Sir Tornado]

ZONEACE, by your logic, we shouldn't be lynching anyone. After all, everyone has a chance of comming town.

I am really tired of your tantrums, so just remember, that:

1) We are not privy to your role.
2) If you are town, behave like town would.

The only indication we have to your allignment is your actions, so, stop behaving as if your lynch/vig, if you are town is town's fault. It would be your own for not playing well enough.

[Sir Tornado]

My last post was made before I read ZONEACE'S last post, so read it before you read ZONEACE's last post.

[Sir Tornado]

You know what, if he's scum then Vig me. i can live with that, if i have to die in a scum for town trade to make you all see what's going on then fine. BUT IF JDODGE TURNS UP TOWN I NEED TO BE ALIVE TOMORROW.

If Jdodge is town and you vig me, then we wake up tomorrow with 8 people and likely 3 scum meaning lylo.


Honestly if Jdodge comes up town i don't think you should kill anyone.

It isn't much of LYLO with 4 masons in those 8. Assuming 3 scum (required for lylo), and aggreement to not lynch masons, you have 3 scum in 4 people. Surely, it isn't that hard.

[Sir Tornado]

its certainly the fault of everyone who votes for me/vig's me. CONSIDERING THERE ARE SUBSTANTIALLY BETTER TARGETS.

but really, if jdodge is town and there are 2 deaths tomorrow night, you're clearly not a vig and instead a sk.

ZONEACE, you think Korejora (your choice for vig) is better target than you in eyes of the town? Why?

I am not going to forego a vig, not if we are treating the vig as an extra lynch. Besides, it is likely I would be NKed, so you won't have to worry about my allignment tomorrow.

[Sir Tornado]

Wait, accounting for traitor and 3 more scum, this is LyLo right now.

[Sir Tornado]

ZONEACE, I am taking voting on who to hit. It is likely that if I do not do so, the same person is likely to get lynched D6. I mean, let's face it, if JDodge comes town, you are going to be lynched tomorrow if I don't vig you. Doesn't make much of a difference.

[Sir Tornado]

If it's 1 mason + 2 non mason, Setael is probably town.

Since there is opposition to MoS vig, that leaves Elmo/ZONEACE vig.

If JDodge comes scum, Elmo scum is very likely. I will see Elmo's post on whether he has had any interaction with JDodge.

[Sir Tornado]

also, im currently composing a small explanation for why kore needs to die

This looks rather large...

[Sir Tornado]

What do you mean by ZONEACE couldn't be vigged?