Mafia 70: Traditional - Game over!

[Patrick]

Votecount

JDodge (2) -- Mastermind of Sin, Simenon
Sir Tornado (3) -- JDodge, Setael, Elmo
Simenon (1) -- Niv

Not voting: Bookitty, Ether, Korejora, Sir Tornado, ZONEACE
11 alive, 6 to lynch.

[Simenon]

So, your three big ideas are:

Simenon hasn't done anything of note, so he's probably scum.
He's a mafia mason, because it would be cool if we got four confirmed townies.
I do not know what scum does.

Those are brilliant reasons to lynch someone.

[Bookitty]

Hmmm.

Niv, what did you think was especially convincing about Setael's case on me?

[Ether]

Eh?

I would love to know what ether means.

Oh. This.

Bookitty's reference to Colin's joining the TSwagon early is a fair point. Bah.

and Zoneace, I've maintained from D1 isn't scum based on meta amongst other things.

What meta?

ZONEACE, who's scum?

[JDodge]

Eh?

I would love to know what ether means.

Oh. This.

Bookitty's reference to Colin's joining the TSwagon early is a fair point. Bah.

and Zoneace, I've maintained from D1 isn't scum based on meta amongst other things.

What meta?

ZONEACE, who's scum?

What exactly are you insinuating with this?

[Ether]

There was actually one post in which Colin addressed JDodge with what felt like a breadcrumb, but I still think the rest of his behavior cancels that out.

I'm not insinuating anything.

I gave you the link because you asked.

[Simenon]

Ether.

That was a joke.

[Bookitty]

And on thinking about it some more:

@Niv: What exactly is your case against Simenon?

[Ether]

Ether.

That was a joke.

I figured.

[Sir Tornado]

I find it odd that suddenly Sir T thinks I'm scum, and his only reason is "elimination process". I think if he was a townie, he would've come up with SOME kind of a case. I know that whenever I'm a townie, since I don't know anything I can always come up with a few cases that turn out to be totally wrong, but nonetheless it's better than having NOTHING but process of elimination on someone, which is likely to only be done by scum who's afraid to make BS cases that are full of holes. Easier to just throw out process of elimination scum lists so you don't have to defend cases that you know are completely fabricated. Townies don't fear this since, though they may be wrong, they aren't lying.

This is fairly interesting post and mostly a correct one. Except that I don't do the "give a case" thing. You are free to check out all the games I have been town as well as scum (there's a fairly large sample for you to check out and confirm this). I just don't do it. It's not my style of play.

[Setael]

We were in mini 486 together viewtopic.php?t=5886 and though you may not have given big cases on people, you gave a good reason for every FOS, and you didn't do anything by process of elimination. Maybe link a game where you did that as town? Or link a game where you did it as scum, that would work too

[Sir Tornado]

Setael, I was scum in Mini 486 (ABR's game?)

Also, it was Day 1. You can't eliminate people from being scum on day 1.

I haven't done this before on forum because I haven't lived this far into the game as town. I have a penchant of getting NKed N2 or N3.

Also, I haven't voted or fosed anyone yet. My list of suspicion was reply to Ether asking me who I thought scum was. I don't need any "case" to suspect someone. I need that to convince you to vote for the person, but I am not doing that atm.

[Sir Tornado]

Also, we are not going to lynch Simenon, or any other confimed mason for that matter.

[Setael]

Ok, I see what you're saying. However, I think my point still stands with a bit of alteration. Rather than saying you (if town) should've been able to come up with a case, I'll amend it to you should've been able to come up with some kind of reason other than just elimination.

[Sir Tornado]

Elimination is a strong reason. To quote Sherlock Holmes: "When you have eliminated the impossible, the alternative, however improbable must be the truth".

Applying the above statement in this scenario will be a bit extreme, I agree. But my inferences aren't so extreme as in the example either.

[Korejora]

Elimination is an OK way of choosing, IMHO, but I am not really sure how you came up with the numbers for how many people you had to bring it down to.

[Sir Tornado]

Kore, what numbers do you mean? I am operating on the assumption that there are 5 scum, no member of masonary is full scum and that we have a vig rather than a SK. If that is the case then we have the game wraped anyway. All we have to do is make sure mafia doesn't get to kill all the masons and everyone else is lynched or bumped off. That is entirely possible to achieve.

[Bookitty]

I think Mastermind of Sin might be bussing ZONEACE.

Throughout the game, whenever anyone voted or even questioned ZONEACE, he had an immediate and angry response. Mastermind of Sin defended him early, and more than just on Day One, because when I replaced into the game he also defended him very strongly to me, and I did not replace until Day Two.

I notice a significant difference between ZONEACE's responses to anyone else accusing or voting him, and his response to Mastermind of Sin. Since they both argued that they didn't really know each other out of game, I don't think it's because they are personal friends, as I thought originally regarding MoS's persistent and repeated defences of ZONEACE's play. So I don't see a good reason for the muted nature of ZONEACE's response to MoS, given his previous responses to similar acts by others.

I'm putting my vote on ZONEACE, but I'm willing to vote either MoS or ZONEACE, because I think they're scumbuddies.

vote ZONEACE

Additionally, I agree that we shouldn't lynch a mason today, but I strongly feel all of us should be questioned and looked at carefully, and not given a free pass. I think this will be very helpful later in the game.

[Setael]

Bookitty, MoS was one of the main ones pushing a Zeppo and then BM lynch. I take it you think the tunneling he did on Zeppo was bussing? I find that hard to believe. Zoneace is a possibility, but I think MoS is town.

Looking over Simenon's posts, he's been pretty mum about Sir Tornado and I could definitely see Sir T being scum if Sim's the traitor. Until we know Sim's alignment, I can't draw any conclusions from this, but it's a definite possibility.

Simenon, care to give an opinion of Sir Tornado?

[Simenon]

Looking over Simenon's posts, he's been pretty mum about Sir Tornado and I could definitely see Sir T being scum if Sim's the traitor. Until we know Sim's alignment, I can't draw any conclusions from this, but it's a definite possibility.

Simenon, care to give an opinion of Sir Tornado?

This isn't true at all.

I think Sir T is town. You and Jdodge are on his wagon.

And in the future, don't ask me for opinions if in the previous comment you assume I'm scum.

[Bookitty]

Some quotes from your case on me:

My first issue with this post is that after so many long and thorough posts about why she thinks MoS is scum, she dismisses all of it with TS' interaction with MoS. Bookitty was not wishy washy on MoS - she had good reasons for her case, and good rebuttals to his defense. As strong as she was on MoS, I would expect her to at least consider that TS could've been distancing impressively rather than dropping the entire MoS case for this one reason, about which she could be wrong. I believe she had other reasons for unvoting MoS. The kind scum don't want to share. Strategy stuff, you know.

The second issue I have with this post is Bookitty's stance on Zorg/BM. I've bolded what was specifically fishy. The only thing Bookitty really says about Zorg is the same thing she's saying about MoS. The reason that was good enough to drop the entire MoS case, which is that TS' interaction with Zorg is "too clear a defense for scum to make of other scum" and her conclusion therefore should be that Zorg, like MoS, is unlikely to be scum. A logical conclusion, considering the same evidence she's giving about Zorg is the reason she unvoted and cleared MoS (and has dropped her suspicion of him ever since).

What's interesting about this is you're trying to change my case into me saying that you shouldn't have unvoted MoS. That's not accurate. I don't care that you unvoted MoS - a townie would do that. I don't care (much) that your reasons for unvoting MoS didn't seem good enough - a townie would do that too if they're being sloppy or strapped for time. What I think is scummy is that you cleared MoS, but then didn't clear Zorg when you had the same evidence against him. I don't think you were defending/buddying up to MoS, I think you were avoiding defending and/or distancing from Zorg/BM. So all this emphasis on MoS just looks like distraction.

Something more recent:

MoS’ reason for unvoting Zorg was TS’ post against White. I'm sure a lot could be read into this, but as far as the Zorg wagon goes, it's possible that TS' post against White was an attempt at distracting from the Zorg wagon. If so, it worked on MoS. He didn't change his vote because of anything town-like Zorg did, but rather because of TS' case on White and since we know both of their alignment(TS scum; White town), it seems likely that the whole thing was geared at pulling the spotlight away from Zorg.

Why do you think MoS is town?

[Sir Tornado]

What meta?

Check out the links someone gave to ZONEACE's games.

[Setael]

I think Sir T is town. You and Jdodge are on his wagon.

What changed since Nov. 16, when he was on your list of players you were willing to wagon? Are you still willing to wagon him, or has something changed your mind?

And in the future, don't ask me for opinions if in the previous comment you assume I'm scum.

Consider it a rhetorical question - mostly meant to point out that in spite of all the attention on Sir T of late, you've avoided ever giving an opinion.

[Setael]

Why do you think MoS is town?

Zeppo came up scum. That kind of thing can change an opinion or two.

[Bookitty]

I think you meant Zorg came up scum.

This quote:

MoS’ reason for unvoting Zorg was TS’ post against White. I'm sure a lot could be read into this, but as far as the Zorg wagon goes, it's possible that TS' post against White was an attempt at distracting from the Zorg wagon. If so, it worked on MoS. He didn't change his vote because of anything town-like Zorg did, but rather because of TS' case on White and since we know both of their alignment(TS scum; White town), it seems likely that the whole thing was geared at pulling the spotlight away from Zorg.

was made in the same post as your vote for BM, which indicates you thought BM was scum at that time. And as I read that, it sounds like you're arguing that MoS moved off Zorg's bandwagon in support of TS. If it's coincidental, why mention it specifically?

So assuming that you believed BM to be scum when you voted him, why the change of heart on MoS when BM did come up scum?