Mafia 70: Traditional - Game over!

[Patrick]

Votecount

JDodge (1) -- Simenon
Setael (4) -- JDodge, Battle Mage, Mastermind of Sin, Bookitty
Bookitty (3) -- KaleiÐoscøpe, Skruffs, Niv
Battle Mage (1) -- Setael

Not voting: Aimee, Ether, Sir Tornado, Elmo, ZONEACE
14 alive, 8 to lynch.

[Simenon]

Not voting: Aimee, Ether, Sir Tornado, Elmo, ZONEACE

I'd like these people to commit to a vote.

[Ether]

Meh. Later.

I'm rereading the thread right now. Well, right now I'm skipping around playing WIFOM games, but I'll be rereading the thread once I have the fun parts down. (Speaking of which, MoS is town. True story.)

Skruffs, I came into day assuming you had probably been roleblocked but I was surprised enough to get hopeful when you didn't state this outright. I did not think that you had a guilty on Bookitty--hence, "I think BM and Bookitty are town."

[Patrick]

Korejora replaces Aimee. <3 her.

[Skruffs]

MOS : Yes, I'm aware of that. Which is why I am curious why BooKitty asked if I had an investigation on ZONEACE, since not only had it already been said I was RB'd but also his target had already been announced. It strikes me that she asked because either A) Zoneace is her buddy and she missed my predecesser saying he was blocked, or, B) She knew I was blocked but wanted it to be known I was voting Zoneace. both of them look bad on her, in my opinion.

[Setael]

Welcome Korejora! Do you have a nickname?

[Bookitty]

I'd forgotten about the roleblocking thing, in all honesty. Quite a bit had happened in this game since then, and with Lemming being replaced, I didn't think about it.

For what it's worth, I doubt I'm the only one who forgot.

I could present this WIFOMy argument about why scum wouldn't say anything because they would remember about the roleblock and they wouldn't want to call attention to themselves, but I don't think it would help much, and I am not a big fan of WIFOM.

[Setael]

I forgot that as well. Otherwise Skruff's Bookitty vote would've meant nothing to me since I'd have assumed he had been roleblocked.

I'm working on my Boo case. It has to be decent, or I'm going to end up getting lynched as town AGAIN in this game. Which is just too ridiculous to happen this close to Christmas.

[Simenon]

We call her kore.

[Skruffs]

Hi Korejara. Welcome to the game!

[Elmo]

Hi Kore <3

Undecided about Setael. I was considering hammering myself; Yamahako would almost certainly have just sat and talked himself into a deadline lynch. I'm not a big fan of Flare, however, so I might hop on after rereading Flare and/or someone making a better case (apologies if I've missed it). This Bookitty case is also a little odd, to me.

Considering we know Erg0's town, I dislike what came from BM's direction yesterday even more. You seemed to be attacking Erg0 and then trying to spin things he said in defence; I think I'm going to

vote

:

Battle Mage

and see what falls out, for now.

I'd be interested in the case on Bookitty, given that Skruffs is also making it - I don't particularly see it at the moment, but I'm willing to listen.

[Bookitty]

I would actually prefer, if at all possible, to hear Setael's case on me before we vote her (or anyone) out.

I think there's a possibility both Setael and BattleMage are scum, one defending me oddly (Battle Mage asking for explanations from people who were voting me was a little strange, and made me suspicious) and the other attacking me for undefined and very nebulous reasons. That's why I'd like Setael to make her case. Since I think she's likely scum, I want as much content from her as possible, regardless of who's lynched. Even if she manages to get me lynched, I think the net result would be a gain for town in information.

So I'm going to

unvote

for now and wait, albeit impatiently, for Setael to make her promised case.

[Bookitty]

EBWOP:

I thought I'd mentioned this (blaming it on early morning posting) but I also don't like Setael repeatedly mentioning that she'd thought one of Flare (Setael, now) and Battle Mage was scum, but not both. It's like she's clinging to that so that if one of them is lynched and is scum, then clearly the other one couldn't be.

The case against both of them is very similar, in my view. This insistence that only one of them is scum, when both of them are under some pressure, seems off to me.

[Battle Mage]

I think there's a possibility both Setael and BattleMage are scum, one defending me oddly (Battle Mage asking for explanations from people who were voting me was a little strange, and made me suspicious)

Really? I mean, i havent read the entire thread, i see 3 obvious scumbags jumping out at me, and 3 people, including a claimed cop, pop out and vote for someone else with no explanation. What part of asking explanation for that is a little strange?

BM

[Bookitty]

Ah. Read the entire thread, Battle Mage. Kaleidoscope is voting me because of my predecessor's play, and hasn't given an explanation lately. Skruffs explained himself now. And Setael is going to make a case on me at some point, she promised.

But knowing you haven't read the entire thread actually does mitigate my suspicion to some small degree. Seriously, read it, though.

[Battle Mage]

yes i will do. hopefully when college finishes for xmas (wednesday).

[Setael]

The long-awaited Boo case has finally arrived.

When I replaced in, I read from where DeadSetael died to catch up. I hadn't paid much attention to Bookitty in my previous incarnation and had no opinion of her alignment. During my catch up read, her posts sent up red flags and I was pretty sure she was scum. This feeling is partly based on how different her posts seem from the one game I've finished with her in which she was town and used solid logic, made logical conclusions and left no stone unturned. Such is not the case in this game. Let's start with her Post 1523, which is the heart of why I think Bookitty is scum. Here it is, in its entirety.

Some interactions between ToasterStrudel and others:

She votes MoS. This could be distancing, but Flare and Zorg jump on this wagon pretty quickly. When Erg0 expresses some discomfort with the wagon, TS states "It's never a bad long-term strategy, especially in a big game, to keep some heat on MoS. If he's scum, you hope that he might slip up. I don't know if that's what Flare and Zorg have in mind, but I sure wouldn't like MoS to get complacent."

This just doesn't seem like scum distancing to me.

unvote

Then, when Ether notes that "You voted MoS with the implications that Flare was town", TS disavows this, stating, "Independently of my observations on MoS, Flare's contributions seem to lean on the side of disruption, rather than contribution, so I would definitely add him to the scummy column."

This DOES look like scum distancing to me.

TS decides to go along with JDodge's suspicions of White (townie), saying "Upon further consideration, I am going to trust JDodge, and my own guts, on this one." I don't see scum saying this about other scum, it's too clear a linkage.

When White attacks Yamahoko for some valid reasons, TS defends Yama, saying "Loaded question noted. Here's another: 'Yama, when did you stop beating puppies?'"

Again, possibly too clear a linkage for scum to make to other scum.

Some weird interplay in which TS doesn't really defend Ether, nor attack her, but just uses her in some confusing example of buddying up to lurkers. (White really wasn't helping himself here, and I have no idea what TS means about Ether in these posts.)

WIFOM: TS accuses White of buddying up with MoS... trying to get back to her original lynch target of MoS, or trying to clear MoS when White comes up town? I'm leaning toward the first, based on tone.

Does some fishing and comes up with the idea that White is a mason, due to Simenon's opposition to his lynch. Loudly hints at her discovery.

Chummily points out to MoS that "I really, really don't see what's so special about Zorg. Whatever scent of scum he gives off, I must be immune to it. I read all the posts, and I just don't get it." Too clear a defense for scum to make of other scum, once again, as I see it.

Really liking my unvote on MoS at the moment. TS seems fixated on him, not something I see scum doing to other scum.

MoS, ZONEACE, Flameaxe, JDodge vote for TS and force a claim. A wagon forms on Zorg nearly instantly. TS votes White, despite the Zorg wagon.

I'm thinking at least one of Zorg (Battle Mage) and Flare is scum. I'm not really sure which

, but Toaster Strudel's early comment painting Flare as scum, while never pursuing him in any meaningful manner, seems like a better case for his lynch than Zorg's. TS linked herself rather openly to Zorg, not a move I think smart scum would make.

And rereading Flare's posts, which are alternating attacks and withdrawals of those attacks (at least in my view), I don't see anything to make me reconsider this idea.

vote Flare

Oh, and Minor FOS: Mastermind of Sin. Your kitty is SO not cuter.

My first issue with this post is that after so many long and thorough posts about why she thinks MoS is scum, she dismisses all of it with TS' interaction with MoS. Bookitty was not wishy washy on MoS - she had good reasons for her case, and good rebuttals to his defense. As strong as she was on MoS, I would expect her to at least consider that TS could've been distancing impressively rather than dropping the entire MoS case for this one reason, about which she could be wrong. I believe she had other reasons for unvoting MoS. The kind scum don't want to share. Strategy stuff, you know.

The second issue I have with this post is Bookitty's stance on Zorg/BM. I've bolded what was specifically fishy. The only thing Bookitty really says about Zorg is

the same thing

she's saying about MoS. The reason that was good enough to drop the entire MoS case, which is that TS' interaction with Zorg is "too clear a defense for scum to make of other scum" and her conclusion therefore should be that Zorg, like MoS, is unlikely to be scum. A logical conclusion, considering the same evidence she's giving about Zorg is the reason she unvoted and cleared MoS (and has dropped her suspicion of him ever since).

However, that's not the conclusion she makes about Zorg. Instead she concludes that "at least one of Zorg (Battle Mage) and Flare is scum" and says she's not sure which, as if there's equal reasons to suspect both. Really? I find that odd, considering she's given no reason to suspect Zorg, but has actually pointed out basically the same interaction between TS and Zorg that she pointed out between TS and MoS. It's especially odd for her to put Zorg on par with Flare, who in this post she has stated a lot of GOOD reasons to think he's scum, including his interactions with TS which, unlike Zorg's, were likely distancing (according to Boo's arguments in this post).

So my point is, the only reason she included Zorg/BM here at all is to distance from him. Bookitty had given no reason to suspect Zorg, and had actually given reasons to clear him along with MoS. It makes no sense for her to say she thinks one of Zorg or Flare are scum after this post. By her own logic, she should have cleared Zorg in this post just like she cleared MoS. She didn't, because she didn't want to defend a scum buddy so obviously. As Boo said herself when clearing Zoneace as Town, "There's no advantage to scum in buddying up to other scum."

Other interesting bits:

After Ether points out that Bookitty hasn’t commented on TS at all, Bookitty analyses TS. The entire analysis sounds like she already knows TS is scum. She then casts suspicion on players who aren't as confident about it as she is. She FOSes Vanilla Townie DeadSetael in her next post for considering the possibility that TS is an insane cop. This accusation looks like Boo

knows

TS is scum and can be confident attacking those who aren’t sure due to lack of insider info.

And while I'm not certain it means anything, I did find it oddly wishywashy. I want to remember it in light of what I think we will discover about Toaster Strudel.

Once again, looking back it looks like Boo knew TS was going to come up scum, and was using that insider info to cast suspicion on those who didn’t know and were therefore making incorrect assumptions and being wishy washy about the cop situation.

The next item is her wishy washy, noncommital and tentative Zoneace stance. It feels like she thinks she has to cover the Zoneace issue because it's so blatant, but doesn't believe he's scum for a second. Presents a case on him, but then never takes a stand and says things like:

I'm saving that one to use the next time I'm scum. Not saying ZONEACE is scum, mind you, I just think that's a pretty scummy statement.

That said, I don't know if he's scum or town, but I do feel a bit sorry for him, because he gets so very angry when he can't persuade others of his arguments. It's all so very scummy that I think nearly he can't be scum, because WIFOM, but scum would never be this obvious, so I'm going to tentatively say that I think ZONEACE is town.

This noncommital, tentative stance is much more likely to come from scum than town.

So, that's it. TS cleverly distanced from Zorg/BM and buddied up to Flare, also a wise move considering her words could later be painted to clear Zorg and cast suspicion on Flare/Me. Bookitty has followed up on the seeds TS planted, but she slipped up with the distancing from Zorg and clearing MoS so easily. I don't buy it, and I think Bookitty and BM are scum buddies.

[Simenon]

Why do you bother making a case on bookitty and then not even contribute towards her lynch?

[Setael]

Whoops. Forgot I wasn't voting her.

unvote, vote: Bookitty

[Bookitty]

I did think TS was scum. I think most of us did, at the point you're referencing, Setael.

I made my case against MoS. He answered it, and he didn't do so in a way I thought scum would (i.e., attacking someone else), and a meta check on his interactions with ZONEACE led me to believe that part of the defense. I still don't like the comment about two cops being made before the actual revelation that this was the case. That said, MoS responded as if he were town, and I dropped it because TS's interactions seemed to be trying to link to him (deliberately, as opposed to unavoidably) and because it got into WIFOM territory (why would scum say that and draw attention to himself?) and that's not helpful to town in my view.

I didn't see the point in reiterating the suspicions other people had of Battle Mage and parroting their cases, though I thought they had merit. At the time of the post you quoted, Zorg was generally regarded as suspicious, as was Flare. I didn't parrot the suspicions of Flare either, because they were well covered territory as well.

My post was an analysis of Toaster Strudel's behaviour and interactions, not a comprehensive case on anyone. So making the argument that the case against MoS (which, if I recall correctly, I was the only one making at the point that I made it) was the same as the case against Battle Mage based on ONE POST by me is false. Other people made their cases against Flare and Battle Mage. I looked at the interactions with Toaster Strudel because that case HADN'T been made yet, and I thought it would be helpful.

So that part isn't accurate. I find this a bit funny: "I believe she had other reasons for unvoting MoS. The kind scum don't want to share. Strategy stuff, you know." That's really vague, and doesn't actually require any evidence. I unvoted MoS because I felt he'd answered my questions well enough. I'm interested to hear what strategy Setael thinks was served by that, since she's invented this supposed strategy.

I was pretty sure that TS was scum, because I didn't (and my arguments previous will bear this out) believe in the "two-cop" scenario from the start. I included Zorg because TS interacted with Zorg notably. I included Ether, who I don't believe is scum, and others as well, because TS interacted with them. If I were trying to distance, why would I then state that I felt Zorg was LESS suspicious because of his interactions with TS? That hardly makes any sense.

I don't understand her point about ZONEACE. The meta supported the argument that ZONEACE wasn't scum. That doesn't prove anything, but it was evidence on his behalf, and while I hate meta arguments, I did check.

Setael also seems to be trying to, at the same time, clear and incriminate Battle Mage AKA Zorg. Stating that he and I are likely scumbuddies will give her a good opening to try to clear him when I turn up town, and since she's pushing for my lynch, I want to point out that I do suspect both of them.

Setael quotes a post, which I assume she read, and that post includes this comment on Flare: "Flare's posts, which are alternating attacks and withdrawals of those attacks". She, however, makes no effort to try to attack that case and defend or explain Flare's behaviour, preferring rather to continue some sort of retaliatory case against me. I don't think that case holds water, obviously, but that's for the town to decide.

As a last point, in the game Setael keeps referencing, I replaced in as vanilla town about halfway through, and despite her comments about that game, Setael actually won it for town with a well chosen vig. My input was more or less just guesswork and trying to decipher evidence, like it is here. I think Flare was scum, and while I think Setael is a really good player, I think she's scum. I was hoping her case would be coherent and that I could class her as misguided town, rather than flailing scum, but her case doesn't support that interpretation.

vote: Setael

[Simenon]

For me, this is a choice between the players your replaced and the players on your bandwagons.

My IH meta tells me Setael isn't scum. MoS and Jdodge are high up on my suspect list.

Vote Bookitty

[Mastermind of Sin]

Considering we know Erg0's town, I dislike what came from BM's direction yesterday even more. You seemed to be attacking Erg0 and then trying to spin things he said in defence; I think I'm going to

vote

:

Battle Mage

and see what falls out, for now.

While I agree that Battle Mage is pretty scummy (currently #2 on my list), this post of yours caught my attention. There are a lot of reasons to find BM scummy, but most of them are based on his predecessor's actions. I'm inclined to believe that BM's attacks on Erg0, ZONEACE, and myself are a

null tell

, because that's BM being himself. Most of his arguments are spun in a way that don't make a lot of logical sense, so it's not an indication of him being scum. So, while I alway appreciate more votes for BM in this game, your reasoning for finally voting him is bad, in my opinion.

==================================

Setael does make a convincing case against BooKitty, and considering that she was already near the top of my suspicion list, that's enough to make me

Unvote, Vote: BooKitty

. Setael looks a little better in light of this argument, if she's right.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

Whoa, people see the light?

Awesome.

[Sir Tornado]

ok this is rather lame... keyboard not working. using on screen keyboard for mafia too tedious.

[Mastermind of Sin]

Ouch, that sucks.