Mafia 70: Traditional - Game over!

[Bookitty]

Your arguments don't make sense, period. If you thought I was scum, what motivation would you think I'd have for not outing the mason group? Yet clearly you thought I would not, because your first statement was to scold me for doing so. Your statements go back and forth between assuming I was town, and thus would sacrifice myself rather than claiming, and saying that you thought I was scum, and by extension would do whatever I could to save myself. Which is it?

Problem: Simenon scolded me for claiming.
Argument: Simenon wouldn't have scolded me for claiming if he thought I was scum.
Response: But I ended up taking it back! This would have been a perfect argument before page 74, but this is no longer relevant.
Already responded? Check

No, actually, the reverse would be true. If you thought I was scum then, why would you make the statement THEN? And you've stated your suspicions have shifted, so why would you take it back now?

To believe your statements, I have to believe that when you thought I was scum, you addressed me as if I were town (and you've more or less confirmed the tone I mentioned)... and when you were less sure I was scum, then you took back that talking-to-town tone?

This makes no sense whatsoever. If someone else sees how it does, I'd love to hear it.

[Patrick]

Votecount

Setael (1) -- Battle Mage
Bookitty (5) -- KaleiÐoscøpe, Niv, Mastermind of Sin, Ether, JDodge
Battle Mage (1) -- Elmo
Mastermind of Sin (2) -- Skruffs, Simenon
Simenon (1) -- Bookitty

Not voting: Korejora, Sir Tornado, ZONEACE, Setael
14 alive, 8 to lynch.

[Setael]

On the untrustworthy mason, I think it is possible that the untrustworthy mason is a mafia traitor, who can't communicate with mafia at night, but still knows who the mafia are, and who wins with the mafia.

I hadn't thought of that, and I think it's very likely the case. Which leads me to think that we shouldn't lynch any of the masons at this point. Mafia will be motivated to NK them which will narrow it down for us, and if they don't we'll have masons kept alive at endgame which is nothing but helpful to town. If we end up needing to lynch among the 4, we've got a 1 in 4 shot (I would venture to say 1 in 2 since it's likely Bookitty or Simenon) so that's great odds.

On that note, I don't think it's wise to lynch any masons today. Instead, we'll either make the scum waste their NKs on them and possibly hit their traitor, or they'll leave them alive and we'll eventually snipe the traitor ourselves and win with confirmed masons that the scum won't have enough nights to get rid of.

If there is a vig, I highly suggest you not take it upon yourself to kill any of the masons, even if you think you know which one is the traitor. Let mafia waste their NKs narrowing it down for us. Up to you though, of course.

In light of recent events, I need a reread.

[Simenon]

If you thought I was scum, what motivation would you think I'd have for not outing the mason group? Yet clearly you thought I would not, because your first statement was to scold me for doing so.

No. Bad.

If I thought you were scum, I would have no need to make a statement in the first place, which is why I said "if you are town" in my arguments a post ago.

I think you are scum. If I knew you were scum, I would vote you. Because there is a chance you are town, I can address you as though you are town.

Your statements go back and forth between assuming I was town, and thus would sacrifice myself rather than claiming, and saying that you thought I was scum, and by extension would do whatever I could to save myself.

Not assuming that,

SUPPOSING IF

.

No, actually, the reverse would be true. If you thought I was scum then, why would you make the statement THEN? And you've stated your suspicions have shifted, so why would you take it back now?

You miss (purposefully, I suppose) the point. If I take the statement back because I agree that it didn't make sense a couple pages ago, you can't attack me for it a couple pages later.

[Setael]

Pending time for a reread, I'll vote someone I think is scum independent of all mason goings on.

unvote; vote: Korejora

[Sir Tornado]

I think Simenon is trying to bullshit his way out here. I am pretty certain he is the untrustworthy mason.

I want to know from Niv and Ether why they were voting Bookie, more specifically if it was due to inthread reasons or due to night talk reasons.

BooKie, why did you think Ether would pass your views to Sim and Niv?

Setael, why do you think mafia will try to kill the masons?

[Bookitty]

BooKie, why did you think Ether would pass your views to Sim and Niv?

I didn't think Ether would pass my views to Niv. I thought he was the untrustworthy mason at the time (serial killer, was my opinion). I talked to Ether on nighttalk, and would have spoken to Simenon. Apparently he didn't want that, and so I asked Ether to tell Simenon my views. She said she would, but apparently she didn't. I do not know why not.

[Setael]

Setael, why do you think mafia will try to kill the masons?

Because if they don't and we then manage to lynch the one untrustworthy one, we are left with 3 confirmed masons at end game. Mafia can't risk that. My guess is they will pick off the towniest seeming masons and just hope they don't hit their traitor (or whatever the "untrustworthy" one is). Either way, it makes no sense to be lynching masons right now. If we end up choosing wrong, we have done a huge favor for the mafia by getting rid of one of the confirmed town players. If we choose right, the mafia are then free to take out all the claimed masons without fear of killing one of their own. Any way we choose, we're making the mafia's job easier, so ynching a mason = lose/lose.

[Simenon]

Apparently he didn't want that,

What?

[Ether]

Regarding the vig/serial killer business: filter Flameaxe's posts and tell me he was a threat. Setael1 had picked up some flak for her guesses about TS's sanity, so I could see her as vigbait.

Tornado, my Bookivote was based on her posts in the thread and I'd previously been leaning toward there not being masonscum at all.

I didn't realize I/Bookitty/Colin wouldn't speak later, so I didn't consider passing on the transcript to be a high priority. I was not under the impression that Bookitty and Colin weren't on speaking terms just because Colin wouldn't stay in the chat. When I AIMed him privately to scold him for leaving, he said he'd joined by accident and he'd be gone for 40 minutes. I didn't call him back.

Response: I checked with Ether, I posted something to Ether, and I communicated with ether for a reason: I thought you were scum. We have at least four masons in this group. Why couldn't I have simply talked to Ether? Besides, this is confirmable. Ether, did I talk to you about my suspicions of booboo? Niv, Did i talk to you about my suspicions of booboo? See, look, if they answer their questions, your argument falls to pieces.

Only on Night 1. We didn't speak Night 2. Day 2, Bookitty was on your "Players I won't wagon" list, and in our only real exchange on Night 3, you didn't mention her. (You attacked Scøpe, but I do think Scøpe's behavior toward Bookitty is too over-the-top to be an associative tell either way, so, yeah.)

Colin needs to answer Setael2's 1895. What swayed you with Bookitty?

A traitor-mason would explain TS's behavior and Colin's...slip, or whatever it was. (That's the only case in which his outing me would actually serve to forward any sort of agenda that I can see--if he's town it was counterproductive, and if he's full mafia then I've been out the whole time.) There's less going for it with Colintown/Bookiscum.

Also, Dodgescum is less compelling with Colinscum.

Gah.

unvote; vote: Korejora

[Korejora]

I'm not really sure how to respond to people saying I am "likely the SK" or referring to me as "someone I think is scum". Is there, like, a

reason

I'm the SK? Even if it's just the fact that I'm not as good a logician as you, which

clearly

influenced the mod's decision on how to assign the randomly assigned role to my predecessor? If you guys are still pretending that I was ignoring someone, then I guess there's not a lot I can do to convince you that you're wrong.

Now that I'm not using a cell phone to post, LIKE I SAID I WAS BEFORE, I can review the thread and use the quote feature, LIKE I COULDN'T BEFORE, and help you guys with the issues raised.

Mastermind of Sin: "I can roll with this guy...He seems to trust his gut and I think I can too." Mastermind of Sin is voting for me. You said you didn't think you would. Do you trust his gut, or not?

. . .

Because as I read it, it seems like you're arguing that Ether might be scum because she went after town, a very obvious thing for scum to do, but that she's "cunning" enough to distance well. At the same time, you make this weird "defense" of me which involves me refuting townie lynches, which is something scum would be just as likely to do, and something I didn't do at all to my knowledge. Both arguments just look manufactured to me.

In the first place, White and Setael were nightkilled. They weren't lynched. So your argument against Ether goes to WIFOM about the nightkills. I was in part responsible for the mislynch of Yamahako, unfortunately. I can make a big justification about how I was trying to give Setael a chance to explain Flare's actions, but in the end I was just wrong and I take responsibility for that.

So your argument of Ether looks to me to be one you could easily disavow if she were to come up town, nearly setting up a straw man as an excuse for whatever you choose to do later. Meanwhile, your argument for me seems to be contingent on my "refuting townie lynches" which, while I'd love to take credit for that, I have not done and you haven't provided any evidence for. You ignored my question. Perhaps you missed it.

On MoS: No, I guess I don't agree with him that Bookitty is scum, but I said I thought he was trustable, not that I'd blindly follow him. Not only am I not

100%

convinced he's town, town can be wrong. Town's opinion demands more consideration because their opinion is

honest

, so you

can

trust it; that doesn't mean it's accurate. I have considered MoS' opinion of Bookitty, and I disagree.

On Ether: White and Setael being nightkilled just means she didn't

succeed

at getting them lynched. And everyone makes mistakes; I just think Ether picked her fights in a scummy way. It's not something I'd kill her for if she were at -1, but I still think it puts her higher up on the list than others. I'm sorry if you don't like how wishy-washy it is, but I had just joined the game - I

have

just joined the game, having been away for a lot of the time I was in it - and I don't have as much of a handle on the situation as you do.

On Bookitty herself: I'd initially thought that Bookitty had defended White, but now I see that that's not only incorrect, it's impossible. Oops. ¯\(°_o)/¯ I assume I mistook her for someone else. That changes little, as what convinced me wasn't

what

she was arguing, so much as the consistency of the content with my conclusions, implying similar bases,

as I have said several times

.

I do hop around as a part of my playstyle. As for hopping

bandwagons

--only White's. I was the only person attacking Setael1 at the time, and I

started

the fatal Yamahako- and Zeppowagons with no initial support from other people. I

make

my targets easy.

I'm too lazy to look thoroughly right now, but I think there's a double-standard in this attack. (JDodge and MoS spring to mind immediately, although MoS is town.)

I think Bookitty's questions to you (MoS's gut, Bookitty has not in fact refuted town lynches) which you ignored are solid points which you need to respond to.

You can't just magically discount White, and Setael was already under scrutiny because of her predecessor, hmrox. It's true that you were the first on the Yamahako wagon, but Yamahako was an easy target too, because people already disliked him for his "new playstyle", and were bound to hound him for it.

I'm not saying other people didn't hop bandwagons, but as I said, I couldn't figure out Jdodge, and MoS looked town enough that that didn't cause a complete reversal of my opinion.

And I repeat that I DID NOT IGNORE BOOKITTY. I have now had a chance to address her problems, so I hope you're okay with that now.


I maintain my pseudovote on Battle Mage, except now that I'm back on stable access so as to babysit it,

vote: Battle Mage

.

[Sir Tornado]

Setael, why do you think mafia will try to kill the masons?

Because if they don't and we then manage to lynch the one untrustworthy one, we are left with 3 confirmed masons at end game. Mafia can't risk that. My guess is they will pick off the towniest seeming masons and just hope they don't hit their traitor (or whatever the "untrustworthy" one is). Either way, it makes no sense to be lynching masons right now. If we end up choosing wrong, we have done a huge favor for the mafia by getting rid of one of the confirmed town players. If we choose right, the mafia are then free to take out all the claimed masons without fear of killing one of their own. Any way we choose, we're making the mafia's job easier, so ynching a mason = lose/lose.

This is not even funny. At one hand, you say we shouldn't go after masons and on the other you say that:

"Because if they don't and we then manage to lynch the one untrustworthy one, we are left with 3 confirmed masons at end game."

How on earth do you expect us to do that without going after the masons?

Also, the scum really have no incentive to kill masons if we agree with your plan. They are more likely to kill the cop tonight anyway.

[Sir Tornado]

Regarding the vig/serial killer business: filter Flameaxe's posts and tell me he was a threat. Setael1 had picked up some flak for her guesses about TS's sanity, so I could see her as vigbait.

I am not sure I get you here... Flameaxe was a threat to whom? I don't understand how you discount White as a vig target.

[Sir Tornado]

Also, Sim needs to explain why BooKie claim was bad. He never really explained it.

If your argument was that BooKie claim outed Ether (which it didn't) then it doesn't make sense for you to lay the ground for this to happen in case Boo claimed if you thought she was scum (I am refering here to your cryptic question to Ether regarding her BooKie vote a few pages back, which, according to your own admission linked Ether to masonary after BooKie claim). If you thought BooKie was town, then without the claim, she would have been dead, bad for the town.

Either way Sim, your actions hurt the town even if we buy your argument that BooKie outed Ether (which, I don't think she did).

Why did you do it then?

[Simenon]

I'm not going to answer outdated questions- you need to put in the effort to read the game.

Hint: beginning of page 76.

[Sir Tornado]

I have read page 76. What about it? Also, a question never becomes "outdated".

[Battle Mage]

Read upto Page 69. Nearly there folks!

[Simenon]

Also, Sim needs to explain why BooKie claim was bad. He never really explained it.

Thinking about it, no, I don't think you should have lied if you are town.Thinking about it, no, I don't think you should have lied if you are town.Thinking about it, no, I don't think you should have lied if you are town.Thinking about it, no, I don't think you should have lied if you are town.Thinking about it, no, I don't think you should have lied if you are town.Thinking about it, no, I don't think you should have lied if you are town.Thinking about it, no, I don't think you should have lied if you are town.Thinking about it, no, I don't think you should have lied if you are town.Thinking about it, no, I don't think you should have lied if you are town.Thinking about it, no, I don't think you should have lied if you are town.Thinking about it, no, I don't think you should have lied if you are town.Thinking about it, no, I don't think you should have lied if you are town.Thinking about it, no, I don't think you should have lied if you are town.Thinking about it, no, I don't think you should have lied if you are town.Thinking about it, no, I don't think you should have lied if you are town.Thinking about it, no, I don't think you should have lied if you are town.Thinking about it, no, I don't think you should have lied if you are town.Thinking about it, no, I don't think you should have lied if you are town.Thinking about it, no, I don't think you should have lied if you are town.Thinking about it, no, I don't think you should have lied if you are town.Thinking about it, no, I don't think you should have lied if you are town.Thinking about it, no, I don't think you should have lied if you are town.

Good enough?

[Bookitty]

No, Simenon, because your FIRST instinct was to scold for having claimed, while you were STILL voting me. You have yet to explain

• 1) why you felt the need to speak to Ether in thread, thus outing her well before any claim
  2) why you chose to out her (and it was, by all accounts except yours, YOU who outed her),
  3) why you thought I would not claim at L-1,
  4) why you posted a "lynch starter" post while your vote was still on me and before my claim, if you actually thought I was scum, and
  5) why you had the miraculous change of heart regarding my alignment that led you to unvote and vote for Mastermind of Sin AFTER I claimed.

You keep dodging these questions, claiming they are irrelevant because you changed your mind at a later point, but the questions go to your motivation at the TIME, and that remains unexplained and I think is extremely relevant.

[Simenon]

And my answer, which came almost immediately after my first post, is that I was wrong.


I CANT CHANGE MY MIND OVER POSTS IF THE POSTS AREN'T THERE.

I am not dodging any questions, I am trying to answer them to my best ability, and when you all were too dense to understand my answers, I even organized them nicely in categories and pasted them quote by quote, and even then you can't be bothered to read THE ANSWERS.

AGAIN, I AM NOT GOING TO REPEAT THE SAME ANSWER THREE

maybe even four

TIMES. ALL OF THOSE QUESTIONS I HAVE ANSWERED A PAGE
BEFORE. Oh, and with the exception of the one that does not make sense.

I already wasted my time trying to find passages for SirT that proved his question was useless- I am not going to spend an hour reanswering these.

[Sir Tornado]

vote simenon

[Simenon]

vote simenon

You know what annoys me? That I had to find an answer to your question that I already answered even when I told you where to find my answer, and then you refuse to acknowledge whether I found out that answer or not.

[Bookitty]

In order to understand your answers, we have to believe a number of things that are contradictory.

1) That you thought I was scum, and that you thought you'd spoken to Ether about this, but that you required further confirmation in-thread of discussions you'd claimed you already had with her on nighttalk. If you really thought you'd had that discussion, why the need to discuss it in thread?

2) Everyone who has weighed in has commented that you were the one that outed Ether. Was it unintentional? How did my behaviour "force" you to talk to her in thread in the first place?

3) You stated you thought I was scum. You were still voting me when you posted the "lynch starter" post. Why would you do that, if not to try to deflect from my lynching, and why were you still voting for me while setting up a "lynch starter" for other targets, BEFORE I'd claimed?

4) You stated that part of my argument was that Niv didn't think I was scum. I never said that. Niv was voting for me. He still hasn't unvoted. So far as I know, he was voting me based on Setael's case. So you're addressing an argument there that I never made, that isn't based in fact, and you are attacking this argument I DIDN'T make based on the fact you didn't talk to Niv? What does that have to do with anything?

5) You stated you didn't think the town would vote for a claimed mason. So was it your intention to get me quicklynched before I could claim, or did you honestly think I would never claim at all? If you thought I was scum, why would you think I would never claim at all?

You have NOT answered these questions directly. I'm sure if I sifted through I could find still more that you have avoided by instead answering questions that no one has asked you. I understand that you changed your mind suddenly and without any reason given, that you decided that once I claimed I'd ruined your plan to get me lynched, and went after another target because the town wouldn't vote for a claimed mason, but WHY did you think I'd never claim in the first place?

Your logic in this is... the kind that's not.

[Simenon]

but that you required further confirmation in-thread of discussions you'd claimed you already had with her on nighttalk.

Well, we didn't discuss if we were going to bandwagon you. There was a wagon starting, I had ideas on you, I jumped on, and I tried to remind ether about our discussions. I don't see what is so contrary about that.

2) Everyone who has weighed in has commented that you were the one that outed Ether. Was it unintentional? How did my behaviour "force" you to talk to her in thread in the first place?

"Everyone says you outed her. How did you feel about outing her?"
Everyone saying I outed her is not persuading me that I actually in fact outed her.

You stated you thought I was scum. You were still voting me when you posted the "lynch starter" post. Why would you do that, if not to try to deflect from my lynching, and why were you still voting for me while setting up a "lynch starter" for other targets, BEFORE I'd claimed?

This is a loaded question. I was not trying to set up a lynch starter.

Why in the world, if I was a mafia traitor as you claim, try to deflect from your lynch?

4) You stated that part of my argument was that Niv didn't think I was scum. I never said that. Niv was voting for me. He still hasn't unvoted. So far as I know, he was voting me based on Setael's case. So you're addressing an argument there that I never made, that isn't based in fact, and you are attacking this argument I DIDN'T make based on the fact you didn't talk to Niv? What does that have to do with anything?

I'm the one who's quoting your posts.

5) You stated you didn't think the town would vote for a claimed mason. So was it your intention to get me quicklynched before I could claim, or did you honestly think I would never claim at all? If you thought I was scum, why would you think I would never claim at all?

It was my intention to get you lynched yes, and as I have said before, if you were scum, I would expect you to claim, which is why I said "that was a terrible claim" had an assumed "if you were town" attached.


Hey bookitty. When you try to "sum up", instead quote the person your arguing with. Otherwise, it's pretty easy to ignore what the person actually said. If you were really seeking answers, I'm pretty sure you would try to do that.

[Bookitty]

Please quote the post where I said Niv didn't think I was scum?

You DIDN'T quote my posts, that's the problem. You set up "problem, argument, response" things that had nothing to DO with my posts.

If no one knew Ether was a mason until you said so, then YOU outed her. Your opinion on this, while noted, is incorrect.

And if you were not trying to set up a lynch starter, why did you call it that:

Lynch Wagon Starter-Post:

before my claim, when I was at L-1, if in fact, as you said:

It was my intention to get you lynched yes, and as I have said before, if you were scum, I would expect you to claim, which is why I said "that was a terrible claim" had an assumed "if you were town" attached.

How does posting a

Lynch Wagon Starter-Post:

when I'm at L-1 assist in getting me lynched?