Mafia 70: Traditional - Game over!

[Bookitty]

Gonna

unvote; vote: JDodge

, partially in light of Colin's "stances" metagame comment, partially out of the desire to get a wagon I have some sort of preference for going.

I'm still rereading and preparing an argument regarding MoS. I do have a response to this, though.

If I popped up, every time someone accused JDodge of behaving scummily, and said, "This is just his playstyle! OMG OMG!" and then asked them to justify their vote on scummy JDodge (and I believe that it IS his playstyle, by the way) without ever giving any real defense of him...

I think you'd find that fairly odd, and scummy. I'm not doing that, because I don't know JDodge's alignment. And MoS doing it, to the extent of attacking pretty much everyone who ever votes for ZONEACE and demanding explanations for that, while refusing to respond to questions in kind?

That's scummy to me. I'm not rousing a bandwagon, or demanding others vote for MoS. I'll make my argument, and others can judge its merits or lack thereof, but I do NOT think it's normal to persistently attack and demand elaborate explanations from anyone who votes or shows suspicion against a particular player. Even if it's ZONEACE.

(And yes, I did find Lemming's role relevant, insofar as I believe it indicates alignment, and MoS's attack on someone I feel has been proven to be town on behalf of someone I feel has not is relevant to me.)

[ZONEACE]

I'd like to point out that had i been listened to, our tracker would still be alive.

[JDodge]

The MoSwagon is terrible; Bookitty is scum

Vote: Bookitty

That is all

[Battle Mage]

Setael... You are dead.

BM. Did you miss ZONEACE directing the Doc last night? Didn't hear anything on that from you... What MoS said was much less directive than ZONEACE. K-scope tried to direct the vig at the end of day 1 too. No comment on that from you either. And, remind me why directing power roles is bad too.

Ether, what exactly do you find scummy in my post?

I havent read that stuff yet. lol
I only commented on MoS's post because i saw a glaring scumtell. Directing power roles is scummy in this context, because it was pretty obvious who the Watcher would target. There was no reason for that comment, other than to fish for a power role.

Hence, scummy.

BM

I don't see how it was obvious for that to be the plan. I really don't. Sure, it seems like common sense now that I've said it, but I really doubt everyone would have thought of that plan.

You underestimate us.

[Patrick]

Votecount

Bookitty (2) -- KaleiÐoscøpe, JDodge
Battle Mage (2) -- Mastermind of Sin, Erg0
JDodge (2) -- Simenon, Ether
Mastermind of Sin (3) -- Niv, Lemming1607, Bookitty

Not voting: Aimee, Sir Tornado, Yamahako, ZONEACE, Battle Mage, Flare, Beastly
16 alive, 9 to lynch.

[Bookitty]

Okay. Regarding ZONEACE, apart from one random vote at first, Mastermind of Sin defends him (albeit without giving much reason) from nearly the start. Erg0 makes a reasoned argument regarding metagaming ZONEACE, and MoS jumps on this and exaggerates it into a reason for voting Sir Tornado, apparently simply because Sir Tornado voted for ZONEACE, asserting

ZONEACE is not scum. You think he's scum because you have never played with him before. Or, you know he's not scum and are pushing a lynch on him because you think he's an easy target and don't realize that those of us who've been around this whole time know the Zonace isn't acting scummy." When accused of copying Erg0's argument, he responds: "How did I just copy what Erg0 said? I said I agreed with him and then attacked Sir Tornado. Just because half a sentence said the same thing Erg0 said does not mean I copied him.

Vanishes for a while. Then this:

Where did I say I mentioned a reason not to lynch ZONEACE? You can't say it's not true, because what I said was that I stated ZONEACE shouldn't be lynched, and you are agreeing with me while saying that I lied at the same time. That's inconsistent.

In addition, it was early in D1. I didn't think that ZONEACE's wagon would get to the point where I felt I needed to supply a reason. I was giving people a chance to look into him on their own, which they didn't. You haven't either, apparently, or you'd know that ZONEACE just came back recently, having been gone for something like 2 1/2 years.

Yes, I latched onto Erg0's logic and agreed with it. I FUCKING SAID THIS ALREADY. Why do you feel the need to repeat something that I have

already admitted

to doing? It doesn't change the fact that I made a specific attack on someone that jumped on the wagon, something that Erg0 did not do. I agreed with his reasoning, but I also expanded from there and found someone scummy for their actions regarding ZONEACE. Erg0 had nothing to do with that.

The request for Lemming to be removed from the game by the mod, basically for annoying ZONEACE.

Then Erg0 and MoS congratulate each other for a little while by quoting each other and appending QFT. MoS argues with JDodge for a bit about White, and then votes White, saying "The inconsistencies TS pointed out seem really blaring. Since I do tend to hate on the Oppressor, I could see him trying to buddy up to me if he was scum. A valid point was made, and I'll follow up on it."

This looks like classic distancing to me, accusing but backing off in the same paragraph:

I think TS is scum who felt an easy wagon on White and pushed it just a little too hard. However, I still think Zorg is more likely scum than TS. They could easily be scumbuddies, though. I don't remember either of them ever commenting on the other. Scum often forget to comment on each other because they don't want to be associated together.

ToasterStrudel catches some heat, and Mastermind of Sin votes her, then unvotes when she makes her false cop claim. And here's where some of us think MoS made his fatal mistake:

Most of this post strikes me wrong, and I'm thinking that you're claiming cop just to survive a couple extra days. So IGMEOY: TS

However, even a counterclaim won't prove TS scum, since we could have multiple cops. I'm willing to give TS a chance for now, but we need to watch her like a hawk. She'll slip eventually if she's scum.

Also notice that she *still* hasn't answered many of the accusations against her.

It's all very good distancing, except that at this point it doesn't really look like we have multiple cops, and so his statement in advance of Lemming's counterclaim seems to be a defense of TS in case there was such a counterclaim. Erg0 comes to MoS's defense on this (oooh, seeing a pattern here): "Regardless of your own experience, on this site it's relatively common to have multiple cops (not sane cops, but cops all the same) in a game of this size. I don't come into a game thinking "oh, there will be multiple cops in this game", but seeing multiple cop claims on day 1 forces me to consider the possibility." But at the point that MoS made his statement about multiple cops, ONLY ToasterStrudel had claimed cop. So MoS did NOT see multiple cop claims before his statement.

Some heated debate, and Erg0 again supports MoS's argument: "Unsurprisingly, I agree with MoS about the content of his earlier post. Please, let's skip the "I'm the cop, do as I say" discussion. We're just wasting more time here."

I don't fault MoS at all for his arguing against lynching a claimed cop (ToasterStrudel) on Day One. This seems like sound reasoning and I actually find it pretty protown on his part. ZONEACE puts a vote on ToasterStrudel during this time period, for reasons I actually understood for once, and MoS says nothing at all about it, however. Which seems sort of off, considering how protective MoS has been of ZONEACE to this point... or maybe it doesn't. Waits for the cops to claim, and indicates suspicion of ToasterStrudel (again, not scummy in my eyes, because that's what most of the town was thinking at that point, so far as I can tell).

Then he claims he hasn't read most of the recent arguments, and makes this extremely weird comment:

And now I got to page 54...did the cops claim and I missed that?

after ToasterStrudel had already been lynched-- a convenient excuse for not having voted for her? Could be.

Still hyperprotective of ZONEACE even at this point. And Erg0 comes to MoS's defense yet again.

I find the linkages between these three players suspicious. It's possible there's an innocent explanation, but they've linked themselves together pretty dramatically at this point, and I'm not seeing a pro-town reason why that should be.

As always, correct any errors or omissions.

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

The MoSwagon is terrible

; Bookitty is scum

Vote: Bookitty

That is all

:: goodposting ::

[Sir Tornado]

JDodge, did you actually have a case against White on day 1 or were you just bluffing?

vote MoS

[JDodge]

JDodge, did you actually have a case against White on day 1 or were you just bluffing?

vote MoS

I had a case. Not relevant enough for me to post

[Erg0]

I don't buy that case on MoS. The most scummy ting there is him raising the multiple cops thing prior to Lemming's claim, and even that is highly dubious as a scumtell since he was, y'know, telling the truth.

Bookitty: To be clear, what is your position on ZONEACE and me? You comment on linkages a lot, but the

meaning

of these linkages is highly reliant on your opinion of all of the players involved.

[Erg0]

I'd like to point out that had i been listened to, our tracker would still be alive.

Quit fishing.

Also, since it's bound to come up at some point: I don't consider MoS's power role direction to be as bad as ZONEACE's.

[Bookitty]

@Erg0: Well, I do believe in my case on MoS. If you have a more compelling one to make, I'll gladly read it, though.

With the caveat that this is my opinion only, and that it's based on my reading of the interactions I already quoted:

I think ZONEACE is probably town. I think he usually behaves extremely scummily as town, and thus is a perennial candidate for lynching. I think that MoS knew this, and began defending him on the thought that ZONEACE would likely be lynched early, and MoS would get townie points for having defended him. I think this gambit has gotten out of hand since ZONEACE was not lynched early, and now MoS is forced to continue it well past its point of real usefulness, just to look consistent.

I note that MoS latched on to your defense of ZONEACE, not vice versa. He was desperately repeating his claim that ZONEACE was town, but he didn't have a good argument, so he stole yours. That makes him seem scummy, not you.

Additionally, there's no advantage to scum in buddying up to other scum, so I'm thinking you are town, at the moment.

[ZONEACE]

I'd like to point out that had i been listened to, our tracker would still be alive.

Quit fishing.

Also, since it's bound to come up at some point: I don't consider MoS's power role direction to be as bad as ZONEACE's.

how the hell was that fishing?

I'm certainly not trying to get anyone to claim. I was pointing out a simple fact. People are trying to claim my "directing powerroles" was scummy and I was just showing that had we listened to my direction we wouldn't be without our tracker.

[Niv]

I forget Jdoge was in the game.....

[Battle Mage]

Okay. Regarding ZONEACE, apart from one random vote at first, Mastermind of Sin defends him (albeit without giving much reason) from nearly the start. Erg0 makes a reasoned argument regarding metagaming ZONEACE, and MoS jumps on this and exaggerates it into a reason for voting Sir Tornado, apparently simply because Sir Tornado voted for ZONEACE, asserting

ZONEACE is not scum. You think he's scum because you have never played with him before. Or, you know he's not scum and are pushing a lynch on him because you think he's an easy target and don't realize that those of us who've been around this whole time know the Zonace isn't acting scummy." When accused of copying Erg0's argument, he responds: "How did I just copy what Erg0 said? I said I agreed with him and then attacked Sir Tornado. Just because half a sentence said the same thing Erg0 said does not mean I copied him.

Vanishes for a while. Then this:

Where did I say I mentioned a reason not to lynch ZONEACE? You can't say it's not true, because what I said was that I stated ZONEACE shouldn't be lynched, and you are agreeing with me while saying that I lied at the same time. That's inconsistent.

In addition, it was early in D1. I didn't think that ZONEACE's wagon would get to the point where I felt I needed to supply a reason. I was giving people a chance to look into him on their own, which they didn't. You haven't either, apparently, or you'd know that ZONEACE just came back recently, having been gone for something like 2 1/2 years.

Yes, I latched onto Erg0's logic and agreed with it. I FUCKING SAID THIS ALREADY. Why do you feel the need to repeat something that I have

already admitted

to doing? It doesn't change the fact that I made a specific attack on someone that jumped on the wagon, something that Erg0 did not do. I agreed with his reasoning, but I also expanded from there and found someone scummy for their actions regarding ZONEACE. Erg0 had nothing to do with that.

The request for Lemming to be removed from the game by the mod, basically for annoying ZONEACE.

Then Erg0 and MoS congratulate each other for a little while by quoting each other and appending QFT. MoS argues with JDodge for a bit about White, and then votes White, saying "The inconsistencies TS pointed out seem really blaring. Since I do tend to hate on the Oppressor, I could see him trying to buddy up to me if he was scum. A valid point was made, and I'll follow up on it."

This looks like classic distancing to me, accusing but backing off in the same paragraph:

I think TS is scum who felt an easy wagon on White and pushed it just a little too hard. However, I still think Zorg is more likely scum than TS. They could easily be scumbuddies, though. I don't remember either of them ever commenting on the other. Scum often forget to comment on each other because they don't want to be associated together.

ToasterStrudel catches some heat, and Mastermind of Sin votes her, then unvotes when she makes her false cop claim. And here's where some of us think MoS made his fatal mistake:

Most of this post strikes me wrong, and I'm thinking that you're claiming cop just to survive a couple extra days. So IGMEOY: TS

However, even a counterclaim won't prove TS scum, since we could have multiple cops. I'm willing to give TS a chance for now, but we need to watch her like a hawk. She'll slip eventually if she's scum.

Also notice that she *still* hasn't answered many of the accusations against her.

It's all very good distancing, except that at this point it doesn't really look like we have multiple cops, and so his statement in advance of Lemming's counterclaim seems to be a defense of TS in case there was such a counterclaim. Erg0 comes to MoS's defense on this (oooh, seeing a pattern here): "Regardless of your own experience, on this site it's relatively common to have multiple cops (not sane cops, but cops all the same) in a game of this size. I don't come into a game thinking "oh, there will be multiple cops in this game", but seeing multiple cop claims on day 1 forces me to consider the possibility." But at the point that MoS made his statement about multiple cops, ONLY ToasterStrudel had claimed cop. So MoS did NOT see multiple cop claims before his statement.

Some heated debate, and Erg0 again supports MoS's argument: "Unsurprisingly, I agree with MoS about the content of his earlier post. Please, let's skip the "I'm the cop, do as I say" discussion. We're just wasting more time here."

I don't fault MoS at all for his arguing against lynching a claimed cop (ToasterStrudel) on Day One. This seems like sound reasoning and I actually find it pretty protown on his part. ZONEACE puts a vote on ToasterStrudel during this time period, for reasons I actually understood for once, and MoS says nothing at all about it, however. Which seems sort of off, considering how protective MoS has been of ZONEACE to this point... or maybe it doesn't. Waits for the cops to claim, and indicates suspicion of ToasterStrudel (again, not scummy in my eyes, because that's what most of the town was thinking at that point, so far as I can tell).

Then he claims he hasn't read most of the recent arguments, and makes this extremely weird comment:

And now I got to page 54...did the cops claim and I missed that?

after ToasterStrudel had already been lynched-- a convenient excuse for not having voted for her? Could be.

Still hyperprotective of ZONEACE even at this point. And Erg0 comes to MoS's defense yet again.

I find the linkages between these three players suspicious. It's possible there's an innocent explanation, but they've linked themselves together pretty dramatically at this point, and I'm not seeing a pro-town reason why that should be.

As always, correct any errors or omissions.

I STILL haven't developed the stomach to reread yet, but i think it is worth noting for those of who aren't able to Meta Zoneace, the last time i saw MoS and him play together, they interacted in nearly the same way, both defending each other hard. MoS was scum, and Zoneace was protown. (Btw, this was MoC). I find it hard to believe that as soon after this game as it is, Zoneace has forgotten this. In any case, my point is that them vouching for each other is not an indicator of them sharing alignment, but it could suggest scumminess on the part of MoS, not to mention that their vouching for each other is at best, fairly unreliable, as despite their shared games, they don't seem to have a great grasp of each other's play.

BM

[ZONEACE]

am i defending MoS hardcore?


come one BM don't let your personal issues turn into ignorance.

[Battle Mage]

am i defending MoS hardcore?


come one BM don't let your personal issues turn into ignorance.

I wouldnt know. But that seems to be what it is being claimed atm.
What do you mean by Personal Issues?

[Erg0]

I'd like to point out that had i been listened to, our tracker would still be alive.

Quit fishing.

Also, since it's bound to come up at some point: I don't consider MoS's power role direction to be as bad as ZONEACE's.

how the hell was that fishing?

I'm certainly not trying to get anyone to claim. I was pointing out a simple fact. People are trying to claim my "directing powerroles" was scummy and I was just showing that had we listened to my direction we wouldn't be without our tracker.

So you weren't trying to antagonise the doctor into reacting? Because that's what it looks like.

[ZONEACE]

no I was trying to antagonize everyone who told me I was scummy and that it was a bad Idea.

[Sir Tornado]

I had a case. Not relevant enough for me to post

And yet, all you did on D1 was to push a lynch based on an irrelevant case?

I find MoS much scummier than ZONEACE (in fact, I don't think ZONEACE is scummy after having my discussion with him on D1). I think some of the early TS posts regarding MoS border on scum distancing from each other too.

What I feel is, that MoS has been trying to scum link with me today, like his post 1383, where he goes:

That's pretty scummy, but what happened to being suspicious of Zorg/BM? I'm pretty sure there is a much better case for them to be scum atm.

The "pretty scummy" part was some post which I posted yesterday pointed out by Ether (who still hasn't explained how it was scummy). I don't like the way MoS simply says it is scummy (when I don't think it is) and then tries to deflect attention from it. It seems like a subtle ploy to take me down with him if he is scum.

ZONEACE, your idea regarding directing the doctor was a bad idea. The doctor had to basically guess who the scum were targeting last night, and it just turned out that you guessed right and the doctor guessed wrong. You did nothing great in guessing correct -- the probability was 50-50, and neither does that mean that you will necessarily guess correct the next time. Quit discussing that topic.

[JDodge]

I mean it's not relevant now, Sir T, seeing as White is sort of dead.

[Niv]

I'd like to point out that had i been listened to, our tracker would still be alive.

Quit fishing.

Also, since it's bound to come up at some point: I don't consider MoS's power role direction to be as bad as ZONEACE's.

The issue w/ mos' power role directing is that he was proposing a plan that wouldn't work in the slightest

[Erg0]

It wasn't completely useless, but you're correct in saying that it was flawed. Having said that, I didn't see the problem immediately and thought it was a decent idea on the face of it. Based on that, I have to accept that it's possible that MoS just didn't see the problem.

[Niv]

It wasn't completely useless, but you're correct in saying that it was flawed. Having said that, I didn't see the problem immediately and thought it was a decent idea on the face of it. Based on that, I have to accept that it's possible that MoS just didn't see the problem.

From what I have heard, Is mos not better than making a misjudgement in this manner?

[KaleiÐoscøpe]

I'm starting to dislike SirT's play. Still want Bookitty lynched.