Mini 500 - Cult Mafia - Game Over!

[pwayne66]

Vote:curiouskarmadog

...for obvious reasons...

[pwayne66]

Vote: Dr. Blackstrike

Last edited by Dr. Blackstrike on Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:45 am; edited 1 times in total

hmmm....

[pwayne66]

...oh wait...EBWOP:

UNVOTE: curiouskarmadog

and

Vote Dr. Blackstrike

other than that, everything else is the same...

[pwayne66]

UNVOTE

Last edited by Dr. Blackstrike on Mon Sep 04, 2007 8:55 am; edited 1 times in total

[pwayne66]

I agree. Let the sig stay. It was clever, even if it was at my expense.

[pwayne66]

This is an odd strategy recommendation. I don't see the town benefitting in any way by a town lynch. If a person claims town, then they are a mark for the cult, but they could be lynched the next day (since we could safely assume the cult went after them that night). I suppose that nobody should claim vanilla townie (although it could be a good way to force the cult to waste a recruiting opprptunity if you were a special role)

We know that there are special roles, hense the fact that only townies can be recruited. The one thing I agree with the Dr. BS on is the beneift of lynching the recruiter D1.

[pwayne66]

...wait, it seems that any role claim is hazardous to the town... vanilla or otherwise...

[pwayne66]

This seems to put the town on uneven footing... If a townie is a cop, they can't say so as they will get NKed, and if they are town that can't sy so as they will get recruited. It seems to me that any attempt to pry this information from another should be seen as scummy (or culty) from now on.

[pwayne66]

I don't agree with using pressure to disuade conversation. This type of game is new to most of us. We ought to encourage all the discussion and sharing of ideas we can prior to the game really starting. If Dr. BS has a point I want to hear it, not discourage him by using bully tactics.

[pwayne66]

Mod Edit

Official Vote Count #2

Dr. Blackstrike[3](Trojan Horse, curiouskarmadog, Flameaxe)
Flameaxe[3](Rump-Wat, Oman, Dr. Blackstrike)
Trojan Horse[2](vollkan, tyhess)


Not Voting[4](Mastermind of Sin, ac1983fan, theopor_COD, pwayne66)

Stream of conscieness is 5...4...3...2...1

The way I see it, if there 5 vanillas, and the cult is blind, the cult has a 50/50 shot at a successful recruit N1. (you may have to do some fancy figuring to get around the odds of a townie getting lynched and NK and recruited then nightkilled, but roughly I think 50/50 is close.)

At night the mafia has three avenues. NK a vanilla, NK a power role or NK a cultist. Regardless, the mafia wins if a NK is successful. The town can win at night if the mafia NK a cultist and the cult fails to recruit (this is the ideal scenerio)

The cult can't do anything to stop the Mafia except to play ball during the day and try to lynch scum. In this respect, the goals of the Cult and the Town are the same. At night, the NEED vanillas. They need at least enough to have the advantage when the town eliminates the all the scum.

And now the town. Where do we stand? Lynching scum, and lynching cult is the main objective. The cult is only going to get harder to take out, so I see that as priority #1.

While there may be instances where lynching vanilla is of benefit, I think those instances are rare. But yes, we are better of we dead vanillas then recruited vanillas.


/SOC off

[pwayne66]

In a way, I see where the Doc is coming from. If we manage a situation where there are no vanilla townies, and all pro-town power roles, we manage to defeat the cult. The only problem is this: I can see no way to reach this situation on purpose. It almost requires the cooperation of the mafia (I doubt we can get that) and then only works if the cult doesn't recruit during the 3 days that it would take to eliminate all the nillas. (that is three days assuming that the town lynches vanilla every day and the mafia NK vanilla every night)

[pwayne66]

I am failing to follow the logic behind the Dr. Blackstrike bandwagon. Some think he is too culty and some think he is too scummy. Some did so in order to stimulate discussion despite the fact that the doc seems to be talking alright without stimulation.

Curious considering there are a number of people that have failed to post anything at all or at least anything other thatn a random vote but aren't raising any kind of attention. So as it goes, we are rewarding non-contributers, punishing contributers and creating an atmosphere where people are afraid to post their thoughts. Any speculation who that benefits?

[pwayne66]

You don’t see how Dr. BS’s post could be taken as scummy?

I can see how somebody would think this is scummy, but they I think they would be wrong. He has stated that sacrificing vanilla townies in favor of losing power roles is preferable. He is right. He has stated that a dead townie is better than a culty townie. He is right. He has stated that townies ought to get themselves lynched intentionally in order to avoid losing power roles. Here, he is wrong. Not scummy, just wrong.

As far as what I have done to get the other talking. Nothing. I have been more focused on figuring out the logistics of this game. I am just arguing that we put aside the "gotcha" politics for a moment and determine a course of action. My only point about the other lurkers was this: if somebody wants to stimulate conversation, as flameaxe has claimed, why put pressure on one of the few guys talking. If I were playing gotcha politics right now, I would jump all over that.

[pwayne66]

There is one way around all the controversy: Nobody claim vanilla townie until the recruiter is dead. I think that is at the root of everything. If nobody claims, nobody gets lynched and nobody appears scummy for going after townies.

[pwayne66]

The world according to pwayne:

Mastermind of Sin- I'm not thrilled about his random vote in the middle of page 4 or his lack of an apology for his absence. It's not that I need an apology, or that accidents don't happen, It would just show some sort of interest in helping the town.

Oman- Can't get a good feel on him. Has posted calm and reasonable insight. Has his sights on Flameaxe and I don't know that I blame him.

ac1983fan- I can't anything here.

vollkan- seems legit. suspicions of flameaxe might be a little aggressive.

Dr. Blackstrike- early questions cast suspicions about his loyalty. I have no particular reason to believe him town but don't think that his question betray his allegiance.

curiouskarmadog- first to jump on Dr. BS and his questions were legit. May have stayed on the "Dr. BS bandwagon" too long though.

tyhess- continues to vote Dr. BS b/c he is "weird". This seems, well... weird.

Trojan Horse- seems intent on contributing to the discussion

Flameaxe- Seems a tad defensive. that's not scumtell but it should be noted. Like CKD, I can appreciate a little pressure on the doc intially, but he seems to try too hard too build a case that isn't there.

Rump-Wat- His "Flameaxe was suspicious and now isn't but initially it was a random vote" stance is bothersome. I would like to know specifically what was suspicious about flameaxe and what happened to stop the suspicion.

theopor_COD- was absent for quite a while and as far as I am concerned is still. Can't list any real pros or cons.

[pwayne66]

What u said had absolutly nothing to do with me unvoting. I went back and reread the 3-4 days worth of posts that I missed, so that's why I unvoted.

So what says you about what he did say. And unvoting because you read the thread doesn't tell me anything about why you are unvoting.

[pwayne66]

sorry X-posted.

[pwayne66]

Mainly because he jumped to the Doctor's defence - I can see scum doing this if Doctor's town - he was incredibly scummy first three or so pages and doesn't want us to assert pressure and bullying tactics to catch scum - I see that as very anti-town whatever the method of game. Seperately I've seen a lot of scum do them list things, ppl think they look great, so scum do the odd one liners to impress. Anyways all for now.

...well at least its something. Of course I explained that I thought we ought to back off with the pressure and "gotcha" BS so that we can determine what is and isn't scummy before we start throwing the phrase around willy nilly and inducing hysteria when nobody has a clue what the hell they are talking about. It's my belief that hysteria, coupled with a disorganized town benefits scum. Do you disagree?

As far as my defense of the doctor goes. I don't give a rodents rear end about the doctor himself. I think I made it clear that my defense was of an open conversation and strategy session prior to "game on". I guess that I did not make that clear, though I don't see how I could have expressed that any better.

[pwayne66]

I believe that a clarification is in order... I have nothing against pressure voting and bullying to find scum if it is done correctly. I have stated (and then again) that the only thing I opposed was the way it was used.

I don't agree with using pressure to disuade conversation. This type of game is new to most of us. We ought to encourage all the discussion and sharing of ideas we can prior to the game really starting. If Dr. BS has a point I want to hear it, not discourage him by using bully tactics.

What's more, alot of time that bullly tactics are employeed, they are used in lieu of solid logic. That puts the town in a situation where a perfectly innocent townie thinking he is going to break the game open, tries to pressure somebody over something stupid. Somebody calls him out for his bad logic and he defends his stance. In the end this perfectly innocent townie begins to look like scum.

Unfortunatley, he has invested his soul and his manhood into bullying player X and doesn't back down so that he can save face. What is good for the town and what is bad for the town flies out the window. He is going to win himself a pissing contest. Maybe he even votes for himself to prove a point... Who hasn't seen this scenerio time and time again. This doesn't help the town, this hurts the town.

[pwayne66]

I've got my eye on pwayne because I found him defending Blackstrike more than anyone, asking Curious/Flame in 45 to not bully him, not

use pressure votes to extract information

These characterizations of this comment (bolds by me)

I don't agree with

using pressure to disuade conversation

. This type of game is new to most of us. We ought to encourage all the discussion and sharing of ideas we can prior to the game really starting. If Dr. BS has a point I want to hear it, not discourage him by using bully tactics.

don't sit well with me. One of three things are happening here. 1) You are deliberatly mischaractrizing my position 2) You misread my position or 3) You correctly read my position but believe that I was implying something else.

[pwayne66]

Well, I can see how someone can make that jump in logic. This is most likely are misunderstanding.

...fair enough.

[pwayne66]

Agreed. It is probably better to weed this behaviour out after the fact.

[pwayne66]

I doubt that I am alone here, but I need more info. What about tyhess was scummy a few pages back? What makes the theo bandwagon a crapwagon?

[pwayne66]

I can see the vote hoping thing, but this changing your post thing and the defensive "responses" following seem to be irrelevant. I think the fact that he wanted to delete his double post indicates very little and the fact that it has been brought up (in any context) multiple times would annoy me as well.

[pwayne66]

...I can't seem to find another mention of it either... I thought that there was one.

[pwayne66]

There is no incentive to get yourself lynched D1 as a townie either. I mean, if we are to assume that as scum, he would be smart enough to avoid a scummy situation, what causes him to be less smart as a townie.

Either way, he made himself look scummy. Very likely it was accidental. Both scum and townies have accidents.

[pwayne66]

Talk about brains hurting, I'm not even sure I follow what is going on anymore

It seems that:

1) MoS posts defending FlameAxe and Theo
2) Oman calls him out for it
3) MoS and Vollkan beat the hell out of him over semantical issues.
4) Lost in the dust is any answers from MoS on how he reconciles Flameaxes' actions against the Doc. Lost is his answers about how posting content clears Theo.
5) MoS doesn't bother reading other's viewpoints as they might influence him
6) This is AOK with Volkan.

Am I missing something?

[pwayne66]

I suppose if one thing were to bother me hear it would be this: It seems that Oman is expected to write verbatim his case against you and how he believes that you are connected to your partners, yet he is admonished for not being satisfied with your case that Theo and Axe are protown b/c they seem geniune to you.

[pwayne66]

I have never considered voting for somebody calling them scum. I have never considered it wishing them dead either. Obviously there are instances where this is the case, but some people random vote, some do so to discourage lurking. Some do so to apply pressure. It seems that Oman wasn't satisfied with your answer and voted for you to get your attention and get you to take him seriously.

As far as you answering and him not liking the answers. Isn't that how this is supposed to work? You made a statement impling that you know something about the alignment of other players and a good townie is supposed to demand explainations.

As an IC, do you think the town ought to take to accepting "x feels protown" , "I think x is geniune" and "scum wouldn't do x" as reasonable statements that should be accepted without question?

[pwayne66]

Welcome White. I won't be posting again until Monday. Have a good weekend.

[pwayne66]

Ok, then go ahead and propose one! Sitting around asking for other people to do all the work equates with doing nothing other than whining, moping and complaining. If you don't like how somethings going, do something about it.

hm... I thought I did... but it seems that saying that saying "don't claim town" make you a recruiter... unless your Volkan... and then it makes you protown..?


Then again you seem to be one of those guys that think that saying someones elses ideas are crappy means that you are contributing, so keep up the good work...I guess...

[pwayne66]

White, you really didn't answer his question.....he asked where he said any of those things

While we are at it, I've looked all over trying to find where I advocated sitting around asking for other people to do all the work. I am sure that it is here, since you wouldn't make something like that up (after all that would be pretty scummy). Care to help me out?

[pwayne66]

True. Maybe he could refrain from accusing people of whining and having crap ideas until then.

[pwayne66]

It's how I play, suck it up and get used to it. Some people around here would call it agressive.

...some say aggressive, some say obnoxious. I can see that there are many things that I am going to have to suck up and get used to though. Among them are: gross mis characterizations, double standards, evasiveness and an over powering sense of self importance.

I will try my best. I also apologizing for not "getting" your shtick, I just had a hard time believing that anybody would

choose

to play that way. I assumed that it was a flaw in your personality. I was wrong. Sorry.

[pwayne66]

Pwayne - Strikes me as a pacifist. Seems to abhor confrontation and doesn't like to "dissuade conversation" by voting for someone (I have yet to see this work in reality, votes stimulate conversation) which sounds crock to me. Takes things personally and needs to realize it's just a game. I'm willing to attribute this all to newbiness though. No FoS but still somewhat suspicious.

Are we reading the same game here? At what point have I indicated that I abhor confrontation (for that matter, I never did hear where I advocated sitting back and asking others to work). I have confronted a hoard of posters for what I felt was a weak case against Dr. BS. I have confront both MoS and Volkan for what still strikes me as a tag teamed and illogical attack on Oman. I have attacked you repeatedly for mischaracterizing actions in this game.

As far as taking things personally. It always seems that the most aggresive posters that get defensive call names and claim that it is them just "playing the game" and that the other player "takes things too seriously" when somebody calls them out. It never seems to occur to them that the other player might just be playing along, and in reality they are the ones bringing the arguement OOC by talking about playing the game and other being to serious.

Onto newbiness... try answersing some questions, and comprehending what is happening in this game correctly and then I will take you serious as an IC.

[pwayne66]

It was said based off of your desire to not pressure vote to dissuade conversation (could you provide an example of when a vote dissuades conversation?) which I still interpret as a desire to not pressure vote.

Earlier in this game, when it was to the town's benefit to place ourselves in the shoes of the cult to determine what course of action to take, Flameaxe and Karmadog promptly voted for him. The only result I saw coming from this was Dr. BS changing his stance or maintaining his line of thought under the threat of lynch. Thus he backed away from an idea that he still seems to support but fears expressing the reasons why as he might be seen as culty.

Dissuading conversation is anti-town. Allowing Dr BS to state his full case, is pro town. Bullying him into shutting his mouth is anti-town.

It strikes me as odd that the town still buys the theory that the votes on Dr. BS stimulated conversation. Dr. BS has been non-existent since the incident. He was posting prior to it.

Pressure votes do work when people are not talking or not answering specific questions. Players that are willfully talking still react to votes, but in the opposite way.

I'll post my scumdar tomorrow after I reread the last few pages.

[pwayne66]

I agree that it's anti town. However I see things differently. Dr BS posted what he thought, it came across scummy and was interpreted by I think everyone as not protown. Are you saying we should've encouraged him to keep spouting off not protown statements and that would've made him less scummy looking?

Possibly. Or it could have made him more scummy looking. The point is, now, we don't know. He stopped talking. The post everybody jumped on was still going to be there and could be referenced later.

Do you feel like you got more insight in Dr. BS's position or motivations because he was pressured. I don't. I think he would have been perfectly happy to continue telling us what he thought had the bull in the china shop approach not been taken.

I have stated that I felt that the start of this game ought to be treated differently. I have stated that I thought everybody was so too anxious to start posting "x is scummy" b/c I didn't feel that the same rules of scumminess applied. I have stated that I thought the town needed to discuss what is and is not the goal of scum in this game and that I felt people saying "you messed up you must be scum" was only distracting to developing a town plan. I am apparently alone in my reasoning.

Anything that I have said during this phase (3 pages or so?) was done for the stated purpose. It wasn't done for hunting scum. I didn't feel like I had enough info to hunt scum during this phase. I doubted anybody else did too.

[pwayne66]

I lied. I put a quick one together today. I included my first list on page four and inserted any changes.

Mastermind of Sin- I'm not thrilled about his random vote in the middle of page 4 or his lack of an apology for his absence. It's not that I need an apology, or that accidents don't happen, It would just show some sort of interest in helping the town.

He has explained this and argued it with White. I never thought this action was scummy, only disrespectful. That said, I am much more concerned with his actions, evasiveness and defensiveness toward Oman.

Oman- Can't get a good feel on him. Has posted calm and reasonable insight. Has his sights on Flameaxe and I don't know that I blame him.

Also doesn't seem to take much seriously. This could pose trouble later on as it provides opprotunity to say "I was just playing then" if asked questions about actions.

ac1983fan- I can't anything here.

Nothing has changed here. This absolutley has to stop.

Vollkan- seems legit. suspicions of flameaxe might be a little aggressive.

Here, I agree with White. He is in a mediator role so far, and it bothers me. The tagteam action of MoS and himself against Oman, is troubling as well.

Dr. Blackstrike- early questions cast suspicions about his loyalty. I have no particular reason to believe him town but don't think that his question betray his allegiance.

needs to post more. Considering that he is on a lot of people's lists, he ought to be concerned with ridding himself of those suspicions. If he isn't, that seems suspicious.

curiouskarmadog- first to jump on Dr. BS and his questions were legit. May have stayed on the "Dr. BS bandwagon" too long though.

Nothing new IMO.

tyhess- continues to vote Dr. BS b/c he is "weird". This seems, well... weird.

Hasn't improved in my view.

Trojan Horse- seems intent on contributing to the discussion

No changes.

Flameaxe- Seems a tad defensive. that's not scumtell but it should be noted. Like CKD, I can appreciate a little pressure on the doc initially, but he seems to try too hard too build a case that isn't there.

Needs to be around more. I don't really hold the Dr. BS situation against him, but given the lack of anything else to judge, it's all I have.

Rump-Wat- His "Flameaxe was suspicious and now isn't but initially it was a random vote" stance is bothersome. I would like to know specifically what was suspicious about flameaxe and what happened to stop the suspicion.

Now White. If I had to guess, I would say protown. I can't imagine scum benefiting from bringing this much attention to themselves (WIFOM anybody?). Likes to stir the pot. I will be curious to see how this works out.

theopor_COD- was absent for quite a while and as far as I am concerned is still. Can't list any real pros or cons.

I am hard pressed to find anything either protown or controversial about this player.

Vote:MoS

PS. I realized that I forgot AC while I was typing this out. That speaks volumes to his/her contribution to this game.[/b]

[pwayne66]

On top of that, I'm still waiting for anyone to show that my response was overreacting at all. As far as I recall, my response at the time was fairly logically based and non-emotional, which is not something that is paired with overreactive and defensive. However, I will state that a response such as that is not the norm for me, but I don't really have a reason for why I acted differently. Normally, my response *would* be one of incredulity, but I guess I decided to see if Oman could back up his accusations or something.

I'm not going to argue that you are too defensive. i think that you were, but I also think this is a strawman. The meat of my argument is evasiveness and a refusal to help the town.

Post 210 Oman:

MoS wrote:
He's smart enough to not mess up this early as town,
WIFOM. What do you think of his strange work on Blackstrike?

MoS never answers this question.

so, post 219 Oman:

The follow up post ot that hardly has me thinking that either MoS has a developed plan on theo and Flame or that theo and flame really are genuine.

Unvote Vote MoS This is rediculous.

The content of this post doesn't seem to make alot of sense, but I agree with it in spirit.

Vollkan asks Oman to explain and he posts 222

After MoS' one post saying "Theo good, Flameaxe good" I asked him for more and he said...

and then

e completly brushes over the fact that flameaxe came under the microscope not for vote hopping, but for his poor case on Blackstrike.

His analysis of theo is in my mind incorrect, as even scum can have content, and that doesn't mean they're pro-town.

Basically his reluctance to jump on either of the major wagons for reasons I don't like make me think he's scummy.

At which point both his "developed plan" comment and his bandwagon comment become strawmen for a beautifully executed evasion of the original question.

In post 225, Oman answers MoS' question. In post 226 Vollkan helps MoS avoid answering the question by pressing Oman on his "developed stance" comment.

In Post 227 Vollkan:

MoS has ignored the actual reasons for the suspicions, but why does that make him scummy?

Also, MoS, what do you think of the actual cases against Theo and Flame?

A simultaneous defence of MoS' refusal to answer the question while restating the origninal question.

In post 228, MoS, still to answer the original question, persists on asking even more questions that are pure over reactions of Oman's comment and vote.

MoS replies in 229:

I didn't read any cases on them. I wasn't going to be influenced in my opinions when asked to say what I think of them, because it's all too easy to just paraphrase the case and make yourself look good without really trying to say what you think. I only read their posts in isolation before saying how I felt about them.

An odd responce. The fact that somebody would not read every post in the thread seems unhelpful. How is MoS supposed to understand why anybody is voting for anybody else if he doesn't read their reasons? This deliberate handicap seems to let MoS off the hook though as Vollkan is quick to respond in 232

Fair enough; this is a very reasonable thing to do.

Reasonable? How is not reading other peoples arguments reasonable?

In post 228, MoS, still to answer the original question, persists on asking even more questions that are pure over reactions of Oman's comment and vote.

In post 230, Oman corrects MoS' charcterization of his accusations:

MoS wrote:
So, your theory is that I'm scum and They're possibly scum

scumMY! I don't know you're scum. My theory is that you are connected to one if not both in some way. I don't think there is three scum in this game (rules post), but I believe there is a connection or if they're town., you're trying to form one (buddying up).

In post 233 Oman states:

My biggest problem was not that he didn't see them as scummy, but that he gave crap reasons for it, AND ignored half the case, Vollkan.

followed a very ironic:

Apparently I'm not the only one ignoring things...^^

from MoS, considering that Oman has played along and answered all the questions asked of him and you still won't answer his one question!


MoS continues to ask and have answered questions in 236 & 238.

In post 243, I post:

Talk about brains hurting, I'm not even sure I follow what is going on anymore

It seems that:

1) MoS posts defending FlameAxe and Theo
2) Oman calls him out for it
3) MoS and Vollkan beat the hell out of him over semantical issues.
4) Lost in the dust is any answers from MoS on how he reconciles Flameaxes' actions against the Doc. Lost is his answers about how posting content clears Theo.
5) MoS doesn't bother reading other's viewpoints as they might influence him
6) This is AOK with Volkan.

Am I missing something?

to which MoS replies:

I'm not arguing semantics. You missed that.

MoS seems unconcerned about #4 and not answering questions.

In post 248 MoS gives a heartfelt post about how Oman thinks he is scum (hasn't Oman corrected this once already) and wants him dead, therefore his reaction (and evasion?) was justified.

In post 251, I ask

As an IC, do you think the town ought to take to accepting "x feels protown" , "I think x is geniune" and "scum wouldn't do x" as reasonable statements that should be accepted without question?

Now, I don't want to give away the ending here but, I haven't got an answer for that either...

and now, MoS is being oppositional defiant by refusing to post his suspicions. Am I alone in not being surprised?

Confirm Vote:MoS

[pwayne66]

Well at least one person here has done their homework.

What are you suggesting?

[pwayne66]

For the most part, all I really see from him is him defending himself from attacks from others.

However, people are attacking him because he is being too defensive. I have never really understood that argument.

Do either of you have an opinion of his evasiveness? This is the main part of my vote against him, not his defensiveness.

[pwayne66]

wrote wrote?

[pwayne66]

think I stated I do not think defensiveness on a whole is scummy (some peopel think you are being defensive)...if someone is attacking you (scum or town) you defend yourself. I guess your problem is how he is doing it suggests he is scum to you...am I right? do I need to reread your post again?

I am not concerned with him defending himself. I agree, it isn't scummy, just detrimental to the town.

For the record, if MoS was truly interested in defending himself, he would just answer the questions. As it is, I get the impress defense is the last thing on his mind.

[pwayne66]

hmm... I am torn here. It seems that people are begining to read the "don't claim townie" theory into the "I don't have to answer questions" theory. Is there a legit reason to believe that Oman is fishing for vanillas? If so I would like to hear it.

[pwayne66]

On the other end of the spectrum, theo's original statement seems innocent enough. It seems to be more of an off the cuff statement than a case for tyhess' innocence. His reluctance to answer the question might be a reflection of that. (ie- he doesn't have a real reason).

I can see where Oman's vote might be seen as an over-reaction, but my fear is this: that the town is becoming one where helping each other find scum is no longer the goal, rather seeing who got the biggest balls is. If this is the case, the mafia/cult's path to success will be lot easier.

[pwayne66]

What do you mean?

Just that some players seem more intent on maintaining a personal image than assisting the town.

[pwayne66]

The top three idea makes sense to me. It gives the town some needed focus. Good luck getting participation though...

[pwayne66]

My most suspicious would be MoS, Vollkan and tyhess.

The three I think we would benefit the most from focusing on is MoS, theo and tyhess.

Volk rings wrong but I think I am alone in thinking so. I also don't think there is anything to build a case on.

AC needs to be replaced, grilling him won't work.

Theo b/c he is the one that I have the hardest time reading at this point.

MoS may or may not be scum. Needs pressure to begin taking this game as seriously as I believe him capable of.

tyhess- his play has improved. his earlier ambiguity still deserves some scrutiny.

in short: MoS, theo and tyhess.

[pwayne66]

As is mine...

[pwayne66]

damn it. that made no sense at all...

[pwayne66]

Isn't MoS's theory really just one massive OMGUS to everybody that has had the audacity to ask him some simple questions and expect to be acknowledged? Don't answer that MoS. (reverse pyscology? or reverse reverse pyscology? hmmm...)

Point is: MoS is anti-town. MoS is pro-MoS. He claims his tactics are meant to bring scum out into the light, but conveniently he is the only one that can correctly divine the results of his tests. Somehow, only MoS knows how many assumptions the town can safely make when untangling his elaborate WIFOM arguement. MoS is the only person that can say what questions he ought and ought not consider answering and then only he can determine what assumptions should be drawn from his decisions. Sounds like a scum utopia.

[pwayne66]

What I said is that scum are likely to jump on easy bandwagons when someone is acting obviously scummy, therefore one of the people that voted me is almost certainly scum. That's called logic and deduction, but then you obviously don't know about that.

Thats called logic and deduction? It seems to me that it requires us to do two things: 1) assume that one of the people on your wagon is scum. 2) assume that you are not scum. Where I come from, that's not logic. That's called a leap of faith.

Especially from me? What the fuck do you know about me? You know nothing me, otherwise you wouldn't think I was scum. Don't come up with bullshit reasons to keep from having to unvote me. "Especially from someone like MoS" my ass.

Aside from the fact that he watchs too much Jerry Springer, we know this about MoS: he likes metagaming unless it is used against him...

[pwayne66]

MoS does kind of have a point here; I myself am among those who were not convinced by the case against him. The early accusations of defensiveness seemed to have no basis of me and then things very quickly jumped to him saying it was intentional.

This still gets me. It seems that all of the MoS apologists have reduced his actions and the case against him as defensiveness while the case against him is about refusing to cooperate.
For me, this bandwagon is and always has been about pressure. If the town is going to win, it is going to be because EVERYBODY posted content and answered questions. Instead we are rewarding and praising some attention starved, John Wayne wannabe by saying "It's ok if you don't want to talk" and "oh jeez, I don't know why everybody is being so mean to you..."

Instead we have a town that pressures a person that IS talking into shutting the fuck up and doesn't want to pressure somebody that's not talking in order to get them to answer a mounting list of questions.

jtfc.

[pwayne66]

This game isn't about me. There are more than one scum in this game, and we can't win by looking at one person at a time. You wait until I'm dead to pressure someone else, and you've wasted a day. The cult will have recruited someone, the mafia will have killed someone, and you've lost a lot of opinions that you could have used to find scum. For the latter half of this game, the only momentous discussion has been me defending myself against attacks that don't even make sense half the time. This is not helping the game. If you want to talk about helping the game, do some of it yourself.

This is why I am seriously getting pissed. We have spent all day looking at you and all you have to do to change that is extend the same courtesy to us as we have to you: answer the questions posed to you. YOU have made yourself the number one suspect. YOU brag about this fact. YOU are the one that is forcing us to waste all of our day one resources trying to get questions answered from nearly four pages ago. YOU are not defending yourself. YOU are not answering questions. And YOU have done so intentionally.

If you don't understand the case against you then you are being deliberately obtuse. YOU made the case against you, remember? You have reminded us several times that you created this situation but now you want us to believe that you don't understand it? Which is it: You created this to capture scum, or scum created this to capture you. I won't hold my breath for the answer.

[pwayne66]

I am answering as many of the points brought up against me as I can. Feel free to reiterate anything that I need to respond to.

So you have changed this position as well?

Sure I'm evading questions. It's fun, and it draws scum out of the woodwork as the react to it.

I have brought up the questions. I'm going to bed. I'll find them in the morning.

[pwayne66]

UNVOTE:MoS

for now...

I don't know if it is really lynch -1 or not but... now... I am really going to bed.

[pwayne66]

I jumped off of MoS b/c I thought he might be at lynch -1 and I didn't want him to get lynched just when he seems willing to play ball. He still is the most suspicious player to me (even more so in light of his "I have answered all questions to the best of my abilities" statement he made)

@tyhess- are you ready to lynch MoS based on what you have seen so far?

If yes, are you ready to do so because you think he is scum, because he is distracting and annoying, or because he deserves it for his untown friendly behavior.

I ask b/c I don't necessarily think he is scum. He might be might not be. I know this: if it came down to a lylo situation, he would be the last person I would want to be in the game. I also know that failure to lynch at this point sets a dangerous precedent: that you are not accountable for what you say or for defending your positions.

[pwayne66]

MoS, read my whole posts next time. I metagamed you from Bad Idea II where you (as scum) killed someone to make it look like the scum was some newbie thereby discrediting yourself as scum. The reason this is applicable is because we were talking about your "tactic" to lure scum and how it was newbish and you said something along the lines of you couldn't do it because you're not a newb.

I might have to check this out. The whole reason I would have any doubt about him actually being scum is the fact that he is an IC. The fact that he likes to play the newb card could change that.

[pwayne66]

Just as a point of fact, though. I have always defended my positions. As far as I know, I have only deigned not to comment on the positions of others. Every position I have taken, I have defended to the fullest or given a good reason that I changed my mind.

This was a reference to my original suspicions of you, where you seem to argue that saying you think somebody is protown does not require further commentary. Oman pressed the issue and you never went beyond flimsy WIFOM analysis. I address this in 316.

[pwayne66]

In post 251 I ask this:

As an IC, do you think the town ought to take to accepting "x feels protown" , "I think x is geniune" and "scum wouldn't do x" as reasonable statements that should be accepted without question?

[pwayne66]

since you failed miserably at finding it.

are you always such a asshole? If you want to make a point then make it. there are no extra points for being obnoxious.

there is a very large part of me that feels that is the only reason you have such a bandwagon. this has been the least pleasant experience I have yet had on this site and I think primarily b/c of your condescending comments and general assholary.

I think I taken a pretty solid shot at getting to the bottom of your scumminess or non-scumminess. It seems that you stonewall at every attempt. And then you seem to gleefully flaunt this fact. You question the intelligence of anybody who disagrees with you. You counter accuse rather then answer questions. You nit pick apart a persons post rather than deal with the actual subject of that post. You reduce things down to pointless quibbling.

[pwayne66]

Fair enough. I do think I (for one) need a reset and fresh perspective. I think this game has gotten a little out of hand and we have three fevered egos (my obligatory bill hicks reference of the game) intent on keeping that way (me, white and MoS).

I'm gonna chill on this thread for the weekend (god grant me the strength) and try a new approach monday.

cheers

[pwayne66]

If it were relevant content I'd give you a big sticky FOS for not recognizing Bill Hicks. He does kinda resemble kevin smith though...

(damn you god! one weekend! that's all I wanted)

[pwayne66]

Over the weekend reset.

RE: the MoS bandwagon: Its motives were legitamate. That is not to say that opprotunistic scum didn't latch on, I don't know. Those that doubt the early legitamacy of that bandwagon seem suspicous to me. I don't even think MoS fails to see why the bandwagon began.


RE: my departure and absence from the MoS bandwagon: I exited the bandwagon b/c of my belief that MoS was at lynch -1, coupled with the fact that I don't a) necassarily believe MoS to be scum, and b) doubt that the town had gathered enough day one info to process the day two results.

I will not rejoin the MoS bandwagon (without smoe different evidence) as it has became a giant neon eyesore and a massively distracting pissing contest. This is not to say that I believe that MoS is not scum or that he has satified the intial reasons for the bandwagon. I will say, since the lynch -1 scenerio, he seems a little more cooperative, though he does seem to play the "poor me" card to much.

@current MoS bandwagon: What, if anything, can MoS say or explain that will change your position?

Otherwise, I will be doing a reread ignoring most anything that me, MoS or white has said the last 5 pages or so. More later.

[pwayne66]

MoS, I can't find the question. I remember being asked about what questions you hadn't answered, but I answered that. Could you ask again?

[pwayne66]

pwayne, I'm still willing to answer any questions that you have that haven't been answered. I said this before, but it probably got lost in the jumble of arguments that have been flying back and forth. Just letting you know.

MoS, I can't find the question. I remember being asked about what questions you hadn't answered, but I answered that. Could you ask again?

This is why I shouldn't post in th mornings... I did ask the questions again. I imagine they got lost as I had a meltdown immediatly after... I'll find them and repost.

[pwayne66]

The first question was the disputed Oman question about your "Flame axe and theo seem protown" statements. You say that you answered this question and I have no desire to rehash this really.

This was my original point of contention with you. It seemed to me that your counter attack on Oman was a deliberate attempt to avoid answering the question. I wasn't so concerned with the question itself, only the subsequent reactions.

I posted this(243) in an effort to highlight that your answer and actions seemed evasive:

It seems that:

1) MoS posts defending FlameAxe and Theo
2) Oman calls him out for it
3) MoS and Vollkan beat the hell out of him over semantical issues.
4) Lost in the dust is any answers from MoS on how he reconciles Flameaxes' actions against the Doc. Lost is his answers about how posting content clears Theo.
5) MoS doesn't bother reading other's viewpoints as they might influence him
6) This is AOK with Volkan.

Am I missing something?

(I know, a direct question or statement would have worked better)

In the end, your responce to the accusations that you didn't answer the question was that you did, but Oman didn't like the answer. I looked and I couldn't find an answer that satisfied me either. So..


In post 251, I posted this:

As an IC, do you think the town ought to take to accepting "x feels protown" , "I think x is geniune" and "scum wouldn't do x" as reasonable statements that should be accepted without question?

This was never answered either.

I think that everything following this exchange has been me believing that you are increasingly fiendish.

Also I, believed that your actions against Oman were unjust and evasive and your subsequent behavior indicated that you thought you were above what I took as common scrutiny.

I am coming to believe that this may just be the result of onflicting play styles and misunderstandings.

[pwayne66]

welcome Kakeng. thanks for replacing. Enjoy the read...

[pwayne66]

No. We need a lynch today.

[pwayne66]

It seemed that MoS wanted to say something about CKD @ one point. I don't have much of a read on him myself. I plan on a reread (leaving out anything that me, white or MoS has said for the last 10 pages) and then I will post an updated listing.

[pwayne66]

Tyhess, I think that Tarhalindur voted for you to prevent a no lynch. I'm not sure that this makes a lot of sense, but neither does a OMGUS vote from the current vote leader...

[pwayne66]

Oh...

MOD

: I vote Aye! on the deadline extension

[pwayne66]

nice back peddle TH...

[pwayne66]

you vote aye, to the extension, but you have not really added anything..

your thoughts?

True enough. Apologies all around, last week was busy, this next one will be better. I will do a read on the last 5 pages and get caught up and post content tomorrow.

[pwayne66]

My 4 most scummy- TH, tyhess, MoS, Flameaxe,

and in no particular order-

Mastermind of Sin- My thoughts are documented at length.

Oman- I haven't changed my position here either. At one point I said that I felt he a lackadaisical approach to the game, and White said he felt he took the game too serious. He posts alot of one liners and responds when asked to (which is more than I can say for most of the people here...) but hasn't seemed too keen on initiating conversation.

Kakeng (r. ac1983fan)- jury's out. Seems to be trying to reread (30+ pages...)

vollkan- initially scummy by association to MoS, IMO. If I were to be honest, I'm seeing nothing bad on him for now.

Tarhalindur (r. Dr. Blackstrike)- yup...

curiouskarmadog- rightfully calls me out for lurking after the Extension request. Does appear to me to be flying under the radar.

tyhess- Early bandwagoning. but his playstyle seems to be improving. Too little too late?

Trojan Horse- wishy washy. Vollkan said this "If I put a smiley face there it can't be held against me" I think this is spot on.

Flameaxe- I can understand not liking white, his aggressive gameplay or his demanding style. Its the overall lack of contribution that bothers me, not just your responses to white.

White (r. Rump-Wat)- overly-aggressive and at times distracting. Seems pro-town despite this because of his inquisitiveness and his insistence that we all answer all the question asked of us by everybody.

theopor_COD- I hate to say it, but after 30+ pages, I still don't have much of read on him. I'll go back and see what else I am able to come up with.

Vote:Trojan Horse

[pwayne66]

whoa... It's no wonder I am having trouble keeping my games from bleeding together. White, theo and Kakeng are all in another game with me. I thought that I was going retarded because I swore somebody would say something that they didn't and then I would find it later...

[pwayne66]

am i alone in not wanting to rehash this?

[pwayne66]

That's fine,

I feel you brother...

...I've been down that dark alley...

...I can appreciate its allure...

[pwayne66]

Now it is time for my new theory which is actually MoS' theory on steroids:

Since at least one scum was on MoS's bandwagon:

Pwayne
thyess
white
trojan horse
Oman

it must be safe to assume that at lest one scum was on Dr. BS's bandwagon:

flameaxe
thyess
CKD
Trojan Horse

anything pop out? thyess and TH. hmmm...

[pwayne66]

I don't know if I am interested in that or not. I made the post in half jest really.

[pwayne66]

I was really just interested if MoS was interested in all bandwagons or just his own. I did some research and the first one I came across was the doc's bandwagon. The results were interesting so I posted them. TH noted that his vote was random, I checked and he is right (he is also the first to step off said wagon).

[pwayne66]

Any reason why you have completely ignored the flameaxe wagon?

no?

[pwayne66]

sorry. more directly: I didn't ignore it, so I am not sure how to answer you question.

[pwayne66]

I feel like I am being misunderstood. I don't buy into the whole bandwagon scum thing. MoS and Flameaxe were, IMO, pressure wagons more than anything. If evidence comes out indicating that somebody was on one of those wagons for any other reason than pressure (ie a lynch) then I will think it is significant. Otherwise, I actually agree with what vollkan and tyhess are saying.

[pwayne66]

Do you think the other wagons are significant or just yours?

[pwayne66]

Nevermind, you have answered this before. To be honest though, in your vast experience and expertise does the whole rubbing people noses in shit tactic usually deliver the desired result?

If you want to sell your case then sell it. If nobody's buying it might just be that you are selling a shitty product. This seems to make more sense than assuming that everybody in the game being an idiot but you...

[pwayne66]

I hate to go all Dr. BS on everybody, but if Tar lives past today he is going to be a cult member... I'm just saying...

[pwayne66]

does this mean you want to lynch him (that was Dr. BS's logic)? Why bring this up then?

I don't know... yes? If it is between lynching a lurker for lurking or lynching somebody that we are likely going to have to lynch anyway.

My turn: Are you in favor of letting Tar become a cult member? Why the objection then?

[pwayne66]

The way I see it, it's kind of like one of those zombie movies, where the guy gets bit by a zombie and everybody knows that he is going to turn and try to kill them, but everybody is all teary eyed about killing him. He's a dad now or a husband, nevermind what he will be in 10 minutes when he goes bat shit crazy and retard strong.

Somebody is bound to say it, so I will address it here: What if the cult, for some strange reason, doesn't target him. Fine. Say we don't lynch him and the cult doesn't target him: day two, are you ready to believe this guy isn't cult or are you going to want to lynch him then. Maybe he sticks around until the endgame before we know one way or another. Are you going to listen to his recommendations and trust him until them? I'm not. What good is he then? Kill him. He did the ONE thing that we asked everybody not to do, so we could avoid this very situation. Best case scenerio- we nail scum that tried to lie himself into day 2. Worse case? We lynch a townie that we will probably have to kill anyway.

unvote. Vote:Tar

[pwayne66]

The way I see it. There are 3 votes for Kakeng (theo,white,MoS) and 3 votes for Tar (oman,me,tar).

@CKD- You seemed perturbed that I brought up the fact that Tar was cult bait. Why are you less annoyed by these comments from Vollkan (one of which that occurred before my irksome post and both of which occurred prior to your post):

Mini 500 - Cult Mafia. Why the hell did you claim vanilla?!? *headdesks*
...we now have a sitting duck for the cult.

and

Vanilla is not the safest claim in a game with cult, because it basically flags that by the next day you are very likely going to be of cult alignment.

[pwayne66]

@theo- care to try to convince us?

[pwayne66]

@theo- Do you think that Kakeng is more likely scum b/c AC never answered your question?

[pwayne66]

You still didn't answer mine! No fair asking for more answers.

I'll play along though.

So are you saying that you want to lynch everyone who might claim vanilla town?

yes. This is why we devoted the first several pages of this game to this scenario, so nobody will claim vanilla townie.

why should we believe one over the other?

One said it with a smiley...and it wasn't TH, so we have to assume that it was a joke (or a least the cult has to be wondering if they want to burn a recruit attempt).

The other said it and then reiterated it. I'm pretty sure Tar is a vanilla townie or scum.

maybe by putting this spotlight on Tar, the cult leader will choose someone else.

why would a cult lead choose someone else? You mean that a cult leader would risk not getting a convert b/c he is afraid that we will know he converted Tar if he does? It's not like it matters if we know if we aren't going to do anything about it.

This just seems like you (and Dr. BS at the time) what a reason to hang townies...and it still bothers me.

Then don't effing claim townie and you won't be a victim of my insatiable townie blood lust.

My turn again: It just seems to me like you would like all the vanilla townies to fill out a cute little register for easy access...and THAT bothers ME.

[pwayne66]

Right now (unless I am missing a post) you are the only one (well, I guess White too) stating that you want to lynch vanilla town Day 1.

So? This wagon not hip enough for you?

Why the hell are we not trying to lynch scum?

Please tell me how Tar is not going to be scum tomorrow. And then ask me about lynching scum.

We don’t have to worry about the cult leader if we can lynch him today, right?

Where was your plan for doing this? I would so love to read it...

So tomorrow if the cult leader is still around are we going to lynch another townie?

It depends. Is anybody going to claim vanilla townie tomorrow? If so, then yes. If we don't kill Tar tonight and kill him tomorrow instead, then no, we kill a cult member and you get to save your clean conscience.

Don’t mafia still get night kills?

Unless you know something I don't.

Shouldn’t we be worried about that?

yup

I guess I am talking more theory right now, but I am not for lynching town, I would rather lynch some type of scum today.

where is oman and his townie brownies b/c ckd is dying for some right now...

[pwayne66]

^^^
If I claimed I was the doctor, the mafia would NK me. They wouldn't play any tricks or what ever to confuse the town. There is nothing silly about assuming that a claimed Dr. will get NKed.

For the cult, a claimed townie is like a claimed Doc is for the mafia, so why would it be silly to assume they would recruit a claimed townie?

[pwayne66]

If you want to wait and kill Tar until tomorrow, that is fine. I do doubt that you will follow through with your promise though.

Why don't you recommend a better shot at lynching scum then I might believe that my theory is not the best option.

My plan, at the very least, removes a MASSIVE liability without killing a protown power role and I am at least 80% sure that we preemptively remove a scum from tomorrow's game. Top that, and I am on board with whatever you say.

[pwayne66]

If we think Tar has been recruited tomorrow

How are you going to know?


At any rate you have my case. We don't have one from you. So again, top my odds today and you have my vote today. Do you think we have a better chance hammering scum by voting me?

BTW

Why is Tar a better lynch today than tomorrow?

or

why dont we leave tomorrow talk for tomorrow

pick a point and stick with it.

But to answer your question, I don't think that Tar is a better lynch today than tomorrow. Tar is a better lynch today than any other lynches I see. Prove me wrong. You think I am a better lynch, or is this a pressure vote b/c I'm not posting enough?

[pwayne66]

That is a good point tyhess. I will address this more after I have though about it a bit.

I guess if anything CKD, I am frustrated that you don't see that if Tar is vanilla townie, he is in the cult tomorrow. It is frustrating because I tried so hard to have an honest discussion about this at the very beginning. I am also frustrated because you insist on accusing me of wanting to kill vanilla townies. Anybody that is paying attention knows that this is not the case. Anybody that digested the first 5 pages of this thread knows this. Anybody that digested the first 5 pages of this thread knows that a claiming vanilla townie (claiming at all) was a bad idea because they would get recruited by the cult.

You acting as though this is new, and that I have an unending quest to kill all vanilla townies is blatant mischaracterization. Tar is scum tomorrow. If you don't think he is, then explain to me how he is not. If you cannot, then explain to me why YOU are against lynching scum.

[pwayne66]

That's just idiotic. I think our cult leader just slipped up.

Because our cult leader would spend the first several pages urging everybody to not claim town and then try to kill a claimed townie so that I can gamble by trying to recruit somebody else? Why not let everybody kill kakeng and recruit Tar tonight when I have better odds.

[pwayne66]

If we lynch him today, someone else might be scum tomorrow...why are you pushing to lower the number of townies?

I have answered this and you, again are deliberately misrepresenting my case. So be it.

You mentioned that we are on a deadline, make your case. I've made mine and have stated why it yields the best result. I've done something. Your turn.

As far as MoS goes, I can dig CKD vote on me, he is frustrated and I have been mildly antagonistic. MoS's vote is starting to strike me as opportunistic.

[pwayne66]

^^ WIFOM

I don't know if this is directed at me or not, but I can see why someone would think so. It's not WIFOM. If something is scummy then it benefits scum. I fail to see how MoS's theory benefits scum. So it can't be scummy.

[pwayne66]

It benefits scum because WE KILL A PROTOWN PLAYER TODAY FOR NO ACTUAL GAIN AGAINST THE SCUM. You are asserting that we gain something over the scum by killing Tar, and that's just not true.

No, you are saying I am cult. Removing a vanilla townie does not help the cult. You do bring up an interesting point about Tar being a bad cult member since everybody will suspect him (I wonder if people really will though...nobody seems that concerned now, so why later) , but for that matter, the cult can still target somebody else without having to kill Tar (in fact keeping him alive would create more angst for the town). But now it seems that we will have a WIFOM situation tomorrow either way...

[pwayne66]

All you did today was give the cult a chance to completely WIFOM the town by bringing up this theory. That is not a protown action, you've only helped the scum. Lynching a protown player just to get rid of a WIFOM situation that's entirely your fault is not a good plan.

Perhaps... that wasn't my intention and I haven't thought about it that way. Do you think any of the other posters that brought this theory up should feel guilty, or just me? Regardless, we have a WIFOM situation with me dead or alive.

[pwayne66]

I'm in complete agreement with Pwayne. Anyone who thinks we should lynch a claimed Vanillia should DIAF, anyone who is with me in saying that this is not a good wagon and its stupid idea (unvote) gets muh townie brownies.

Pwanye gets them, Ckd does too but I'm more reluctant about him.

????

[pwayne66]

At least we agree on something...

[pwayne66]

What are you trying to say here? This sentence has nothing to do with what you quoted, and it looks more like you are trying to change the subject than anything else, because you aren't responding to anything in the above quote.

I can see how it would appear that way since you have removed 80% of the quote. The other 80% does address it. I know this doesn't help your case at all but lets keep the debate honest. Your case is that I am cult and that the cult benfits from killing tar. I said the cult doesn't benefit from killing tar. How does this not address what I quoted?

Now

Yes they CAN recruit someone other than Tar. However, this is the situation I am advocating:

What does THIS have to do with what I said? Nobody has ever denied that the cult can recruit someone other than Tar. I said that the cult has no need to kill Tar (a point that seems to be the foundation of your case) and, in fact benefits more from him being alive going into day two. In what way have you addressed this serious flaw in your case?

Leave Tar alive, lynch someone who is more likely to be scum right now (you or Kakeng), cult attempts to recruit somebody

Good. Do you have a case for me to hear? As near as I can tell I have several times for somebody to present me with a better case and all I get is drama.

- Lynch Tar as a protown player so that the cult can't recruit him, cult attempts to recruit somebody

You highlighted my worst case scenerio and ignored my already stated best case scenerio, that Tar is lying and is scum. Granted my worst case senerio yeilds better results then your insistance that we either lynch a lurker or your flawed case about me.

In both situations the cult attempts to recruit somebody. However, in your scenario we lynch someone who is more likely to be town than anything else. In my scenario, I give us a chance to kill scum today. Your scenario wastes a lynch and kills off a protown players, both of which are strictly helpful to the scum.

The only legitamate comment in your whole post. Though you did leave out that in your scenerio you have no case...what so ever... so we are just as likely to lynch town, then lose Tar to the cult, and then lose a NK to the mafia. We can argue about the odds and probabolity and the cost/gain ratios, because I can see where I may be mistaken here, but I still think my situation has better likelyhood for a positive turn out for the town.


Now,thats 4 questions addressed to MoS:

1) How does this not address what I quoted?
2) What does THIS have to do with what I said?
3) In what way have you addressed this serious flaw in your case?
4) Do you have a case for me to hear?

[pwayne66]

I have no read on Kakeng. It seems to me that his primary knock is that he is lurking and AC was lurking. I need more than that really to think that he is scum. I would say they rank evenly on my scumdar, although Tar has been more scummy in his posting than Kakeng has been in his lurking.

[pwayne66]

ah Blackstrike... I forgot that is who Tar was replacing... I thought that BS was genuine and misunderstood. His primary knock was saying something along the lines of "dead townies are just as good as dead scum". This never did strike me as a mastermind ploy to make all the townies kill themselves. I thought it was an unfortunate choice of words. Nothing more.

[pwayne66]

I see what is going on

I doubt that. Care to tell me what's going on instead of piggybacking on somebody else's logic?

[pwayne66]

Sure, You and CKD are pro-tar lynch, who you accept is a vanilla. So you're pro-town lynch.

That's what I thought...you don't have a clue. You saw a bandwagon and we all know how you feel about bandwagons...

[pwayne66]

We can argue about the odds and probabolity and the cost/gain ratios, because I can see where I may be mistaken here, but I still think my situation has better likelyhood for a positive turn out for the town.

Unless there is some fault in my numbers, there is absolutely no pro-town basis for your stance. The non-numerical arguments you have presented justifying your position also flatly fail.

I don't have a clue what these numbers mean, but if they say what you claim, then I am mistaken. How does this mean I am scum? Is white scum for saying:

Ok, Tar and Kakeng both have to die. If we've got a vig you better kill the other one of these. I'm ok with a Tar or Kakeng lynch today. Currently the bigger wagon is on Kakeng (I think?) so that's where my vote will be.

How about Dr. BS (now Tar)? Is he scum for advocating the same idea I am?

Of course, my analysis has excluded the possibility of Tar being cult/mafia. My basis for this is that we are trying to determine whether we should lynch Tar purely on the basis of him having claimed vanilla. Thus, these possibilities should not come into play in determining his lynch.

We certainly should! This lynch isn't about whether I am right or wrong, it is about a favorable outcome for the town. The numbers you have provided seem to be the odds that I am right that Tar in vanilla townie and that the cult will recruit him. What are the odds of a favorable outcome?


That's 3 question for Vollkan:

1) How does this mean I am scum?
2) Are White and Tar scum for the same reasons?
3) What are the odds of a favorable outcome?

[pwayne66]

We certainly should! This lynch isn't about whether I am right or wrong, it is about a favorable outcome for the town. The numbers you have provided seem to be the odds that I am right that Tar in vanilla townie and that the cult will recruit him. What are the odds of a favorable outcome?

Actually, I understand your numbers now. Give me a minute to compute.

[pwayne66]

Fair enough. This analysis seems accurate (though incomplete). I agree that killing Tar solely on his claimed van-townie to prevent recruitment is not as sound as I perceived it.

[pwayne66]

Well, that leaves us here: The day of our self imposed deadline and its between me or Kakeng.

unvote

I think we need some discussion. I also advocate pushing our deadline back to thursday or Friday (our real deadline).

What I see against Kakeng is that he is lurking. Is this a good enough reason to lynch? What do we learn from his death?

[pwayne66]

Mod Edit

Official Vote Count #40

pwayne66[4](Mastermind of Sin, Oman, curiouskarmadog, vollkan)
Kakeng[3](theopor_COD, White, Trojan Horse)
Tarhalindur[1](Tarhalindur)
Flameaxe[1](Kakeng)
Trojan Horse[1](tyhess)
White[1](Flameaxe)

Not Voting[1](pwayne66)

---

At deadline, if there is no majority of voting players, no one will be lynched. I've explained this many times, but want to be perfectly clear: 6-5 with 1 not voting is a lynch, but 6-5-1 is not a lynch.

Also, no votes after 11:59 PM Friday EST will count, whether I check the thread right then or not. Feel free to continue discussion in twilight, but a "lynch" after then will not count.

You have a little over 61 hours from the time of this post until deadline.

An interesting bit of metagaming- Yesterday Kakeng asked for a replacement in another game that I am playing with him. His cited reason? He is too much of a distraction for the town.

[pwayne66]

as the fact that he's fighting tooth and nail for us to lynch a claimed protown role.

I have asked nobody to change their votes. I feel instead that I spent most of the last 3 pages defending my vote against him and the logic behind it. In the end, I conceded that my reasoning was faulty.

I have urged somebody to post any kind of case against anybody. As it was, the only case was against Kakeng and it was weak. So I made my own theory and it was bad.

That's lynch -2. It doesn't look as though there is any changing anybodies mind as there have been no questions asked of me, maybe you guys should start thinking about maximizing the info you will gather from my lynch.

[pwayne66]

Mastermind of Sin- Pinged hard as early scum. Now I just think that he is abrasive. He has his infamous "I act scummy to lure scum" moment. I have come to believe that he made some serious errors early on and rather than fessing up, he created this bogus excuse.

Oman- Every bandwagon known to man. Has lots of FOS as a result. After today he's going to rightfully find himself in hot water.

Kakeng (r. ac1983fan)- What can I say. I think he is town via my gut.

vollkan- Still pinging scum to me, but I've got nothing, he does everything protown... a regular Mr. Robinson.

Tarhalindur (r. Dr. Blackstrike)- Yup. I defended BS earlier for saying what I am getting lynched for today. Its all ironic. Probably town.

curiouskarmadog- Seems genuine and consistant in his outrage. He did annoy me by challenging my Vanilla Tar logic. I still feel that he went out of his way to distort my position in the most unflattering light. I don't think it was malicious. We were both caught up in an emotive and contraversial debate.

tyhess- The jury is still out. He pings and then flies under the radar a bit.

Trojan Horse- I have a hard time reading him as well. Wishy-washy. Could be just impressionable town?

Flameaxe- This guy. Doesn't want to play by the same rules as the rest of us. Sticks in head in rarely and then only to make contentless posts. You think Kakeng is bad, this guy has done it the whole game.

White (r. Rump-Wat)- Pisses me off and rubs me the wrong way. That doesn't mean he is scum. It doesn't mean he is town either. Has a quirky fetish with knowing everybodies scumdars. This could be protown or proscum.

theopor_COD- speaking of quirky fetishes, this guy has been obsessed with getting AC/kakeng lynched since around page 5. He must be irked, b/c he almost got his wish until I came along.

[pwayne66]

Hmm.. Your saying that it inexcusable to not know who is scum in 41 pages? I think we need your scumdar as well then, I can't recall a consistant scum canidate from you either.

Unvote, Vote Pwayne
FoS: Oman

We wanna lynch lurkerscum Kakeng.

Unvote, Vote: Kakeng

Unvote, Vote Tarhalindur

Unvote, Vote Kakeng

I guess I wouldn't mind a TH lynch or a Kekeng lynch

I think we would learn a lot from a MoS lynch

I would personally prefer a Flameaxe lynch though.

MegaFoS: Trojan Horse

I guess I wouldn't mind a TH lynch or a Kekeng lynch

You have had all these suspicions (just in two weeks) yet you are ready to lynch me for the last 3 pages? If the town really wants to gain info, they need scumdars from everybody, not just me.

[pwayne66]

Who's scummy?

As far as my own list goes, I am disappointed that I have to spell it out for you.

Oman- Every bandwagon known to man. Has lots of FOS as a result. After today he's going to rightfully find himself in hot water.

tyhess- The jury is still out. He pings and then flies under the radar a bit.

Flameaxe- This guy. Doesn't want to play by the same rules as the rest of us. Sticks in head in rarely and then only to make contentless posts. You think Kakeng is bad, this guy has done it the whole game.

Trojan Horse- I have a hard time reading him as well. Wishy-washy. Could be just impressionable town?

I am at a lost why you don't think these are real comments. Is my lack of using the word "scummy" confusing? I will help:

Oman- I think that it is really really scummy that he jumps onto so many bandwagons b/c scummy people like to jump on lots and lots of bandwagons. Bandwagon hoping is a scummy thing to do.

tyhess- I think he is scummy. I have said so before. I think it is just as likely that he is making newbie mistakes.


Flameaxe- I think flameaxe is scummy. Not wanting to play by the same rules as everybody else is scummy. Making infrequent posts is scummy. Making contentless post is scummy. Some people think that Kakeng is scummy because they think that making contentless posts and lurking is scummy. I think Flameaxe is more scummy that kakeng is scummy because flameaxe has been scummy the whole game. That is scummy.

Trojan Horse- Being wishy-washy is scummy. Trojan Horse is wishy-washy, therefore, I will go out on a limb and say he is scummy.

...there you go.

[pwayne66]

Btw, quoting all my suspicions, what is the point of that?

I was trying to demonstrate that having definitive opinions about whether somebody is scum or not should not be a requisite at this point. I tried to do this by showing that your suspicions have been anything but definitive.

I have no desire to turn this into a snarkfest or get into distracting quibbling, so I apologize for my sarcasm. I'm finding this situation really frustrating and that is coming out in my posts. I'm off work and going home. Barring insomnia, I will not be posting until tomorrow morning.

[pwayne66]

I'm new to mafia and I honestly don't know what is going on now. This whole claiming thing seems bizarre and highly beneficial to scum. Scum are the only ones in a position to validate any of these claims. They learn a lot more than we do, b/c we learn jack shite. We don't know if kak or tar are scum liars or if they are telling the truth, but the scum know exactly. What am I missing?

[pwayne66]

Vote:FlameAxe

He's actively lurking and waiting for this deadline to expire.

[pwayne66]

On the newbish side; could just have been confusion over what we talked about with Dr. Blackstrike. (We mentioned the difficulties we could have after someone claims vanilla townie. That doesn't mean it's bad to ask for a claim BEFORE a lynch.) On the scummy side... well, not wanting to have a claim before a lynch is scummy.

Once we've reached a consensus on who is scummy, should we demand a claim from that person? If we do, and that person says "townie", we're in a bit of a pickle. It may well be best to lynch them; they may be lying, and even if they're not, it'll deny the cult a possible recruit... The point is, we need to be careful about making roleclaims. They give info to both the mafia and the cult, but the cult can benefit more from those claims, apparently.

.

On the lighter side of things, that's twice now that MoS has posted a defense of Flameaxe.

[pwayne66]

I count:

FlameAxe (3), (Kakeng,Pwayne,white)
Kakeng (6), (TH,MoS,Theo,tyhess,Volk,Tar)

That's one to go on a Kakeng lynch.

[pwayne66]

You didn't unvote. Not to be picky or anything, but you are robbing the town of data that it is going to need day two. I think that there might be people that still believe you. On that note, I would urge you not to do that again. It's my opinion that this day is still going.

[pwayne66]

The only information you will get is that there should be scum on my wagon, which we already know.

If this is true, by voting yourself, you potentially save scum from getting their hands dirty.

[pwayne66]

I count 13.5 hours until deadline (please correct me if I am wrong!). I get off of work in 6 hrs, so my vote in 6 hours is the same vote I will have at days end. I need more evidence to hit Kakeng (at least some updated discussion). His current actions ring genuine in my book. My vote is on Flameaxe.

[pwayne66]

tyhess why are you so eager to push "evidence" against me?

I don't see where tyhess is pushing anything. Obviously, his question wasn't thought out, but you have indicated by your own words, that people are worried about you, why expect tyhess not to be?

[pwayne66]

However, we must remember that it could be 6:2:1 if CKD successfully recruited yesterday.

Could he have recruited if he was killed? Which choice get processed first? At anyrate, if CKD did get a recruit, would it be dangerous? I would think that It wouldn't be able to recruit and therefore completely harmless (except in the end game possibly...)

[pwayne66]

Mastermind of Sin - Scum. He jumped back on my radar. Yesterday, immediately after a bandwagon against Flameaxe started, he changed his stance to go after a very popular choice, Kakeng ( a diversion?) . This occurred after he passionately defended the call to get a role claim (so much so he voted for tyhess for disagreeing with him). So what's the point of getting a role claim if your going to kill a power role anyway? He then goes on to defend Flameaxe's absence (he also defended Flameaxe in his first few posts. Oman called him out on it. This is when MoS famously decided to stop answering questions in order to flush out scum.) Today he lists flameaxe as scummy with no explanation (distancing?).

Oman - Admittedly, I mixed him up with tyhess on my last scumdar. I'm on the fence with Oman.

vollkan - Again, not much to say. I got heckled for saying in effect that he was so townie that he had to scum. Now it seems that he is so townie that he has to be cult makes more sense. I'd like to see him come under some pressure.

Tarhalindur (r. Dr. Blackstrike) - I'm convinced he is/was town. Maybe cult now, but the way I see it, he is not a priority.

tyhess - I'm off the fence. tyhess is town.

Trojan Horse - I didn't like his vote on tyhess considering that TH acted like tyhess's position was ridiculous despite having held the same position in the past. I would likely lean towards scum here.

Flameaxe - scum.

theopor_COD - I'm on the fence here.

[pwayne66]

I even TOLD you that I was just listing this off the top of my head without a reread or anything, and you still attack me for not providing reasoning?

It's not my intention to attack anybody. I am bringing to light my suspicions. I don't care if you gave explanations or not. I'm only attempting to point out that your position of Flameaxe has changed, and I can't find an explanation, indication or hint anywhere as to why... not the post you are mentioning or anywhere.

[pwayne66]

I went to bed the night before we went to night, planning on posting the next morning, but woke to a self hammer by Kakeng. Quite simple bodily processes.

Seems to me that the next morning would have been past the deadline anyway... When Kakeng voted himself we had (If I'm not mistaken) 9 hours until deadline.

[pwayne66]

^^^Nevermind, I see. You went to bed the night before. But still, you didn't plan to post until we were 9 hours or less to deadline?

[pwayne66]

Tar, you are so busted! Yesterday, acting scummy to draw out scum was a protown move. It was so protown that thinking that it was scummy was in itself, a scumtell. Only scum would think that doing the same thing day two would be protown... savvy? oh wait...

[pwayne66]

Vote: Flameaxe

...for reasons I have already stated.

[pwayne66]

Partly. Partly b/c of his active lurking.

[pwayne66]

Wow. Give me a bit to digest.

A few questions for Flameaxe while I do.

1) Do you think that the town has legitmate concerns about your contributions?

2) If so, why the lack of content?

3) If not, do you care to explain why?

[pwayne66]

Prod received. Why am I not surprised to find nothing has happened since I have been gone... I seem to remember saying something a long time ago about having to set examples for people who had more cock than brains and that insisted they do things their own way and refused to help the town. We didn't and now we have flameaxe, who basically says "I'm town and piss off you all bore me silly". This from the guy that brags about hating people. Lynch his ass so he can go about acting too kewl and cute elsewhere. The longer he stays here the longer I start to not care by osmosis.

[pwayne66]

I'm looking through what we have so far:

2 players (vollkan and theo) were in on both townie lynches. Oman was only on Flameaxes but his hammer vote seemed really contrived to me. Those would be my top three at this point. I am actively going back to review NK's to see if there is anything to be learned there.

[pwayne66]

...Seriously? My one vote from two days ago is still ringing your scumdar? It's not like I lynched a claimed power role or anything...

Whats more, what is your beef with lynching flameaxe? I seem to recall seeing you on that wagon as well, its a little late to be having second thoughts.

[pwayne66]

Sorry...the above is directed at vollkan.

[pwayne66]

You're getting awfully emotional there.

So?

1) Time lapse does not alter things and I am surprised you would use it as a defence. I attacked your vote at the time, and I stand by that. Granted, I will certainly be looking for things more recent, but you must see that your vote is a factor in my suspicion of you.

You seem to miss the point of my comment. I'm not defending my vote. I'm curious why my ONE single solitary vote on a claimed vanilla, two days ago, out weighs your concern for SEVERAL votes on a claimed POWER ROLE that occurred since then.

My problem is the lack of reasoning behind your vote. You referred to "reasons stated". The nearest clear attack on flame was 6 days earlier in a scumdar post, but in that post you did not clearly differentiate flame over Oman or Trojan. In that sense, my problem is that I never really saw you explaining why flame was the most scummy. You just seemed to decide he was scum.

Flameaxe- I can understand not liking white, his aggressive gameplay or his demanding style. Its the overall lack of contribution that bothers me, not just your responses to white.

Flameaxe- This guy. Doesn't want to play by the same rules as the rest of us. Sticks in head in rarely and then only to make contentless posts. You think Kakeng is bad, this guy has done it the whole game.

Flameaxe- I think flameaxe is scummy. Not wanting to play by the same rules as everybody else is scummy. Making infrequent posts is scummy. Making contentless post is scummy. Some people think that Kakeng is scummy because they think that making contentless posts and lurking is scummy. I think Flameaxe is more scummy that kakeng is scummy because flameaxe has been scummy the whole game. That is scummy.

Vote:FlameAxe

He's actively lurking and waiting for this deadline to expire.

[pwayne66]

Let's not forget the possibility of a cult recruitment.

Worst case scenerio=

Mislynch= 2:2:1
Successful NK = 1:2:1 (game over)

This is a potential lylo situation.

So, factoring this in when we consider a mass claim: No way.

EVERYBODY is going to claim town. All we do is reveal to the mafia who the vig is. Even with a successful scum lynch, 3:1:1 and the scum NK the vig making it 2:1:1. and then we have a 50% chance of losing day 4, and 0% chance of winning day 4.

[pwayne66]

Vollkan has two points about my scumminess. First: Some weird theory that my stance against Flameaxe wasn't developed enough (oman, is that you?) to justify my vote. This is in some bizzare way, a scum tell. I would defend myself here, but I see no need. If Vollkan would be so kind as to demonstrate his superior stance developing skills as they pertain to Flameaxe, I will. While he is at it, he could show me Theo's, tyhess', and Oman's.

The second point is that my reasoning for wanting to lynch a claimed townie was scummy. I have defended my actions and admitted I was wrong. I think it is Vollkan's turn:

If we get into the situation where someone is forced to claim vanilla, then we are basically forced to lynch a townie.

In short, if someone does claim vanilla they really force our hand. But that just demonstrates that the vanillas should do all they can to avoid having to claim.

At this stage of the game, I think the only real difference the cult makes to play strategy is that it provides a good reason for lynching claimed vanillas. A vanilla lynch is still very bad, because it helps the scum, but it is better than the cult gaining members.

Pwayne was clearly not calling for the lynch of vanillas, he was saying (as I have been also) that a dead vanilla is better than a claimed and therefore recruited vanilla.

However, if someone claims vanilla then it makes sense to lynch them, since they will in all likelihood be culted.

The point, which you evidently miss, is that a dead vanilla is better than a claimed vanilla who will get recruited.

...he was correct about lynching claimed vanillas...

I happen to agree with him on his Oman stance. His Oman-Pwayne stance is ridiculous.

[pwayne66]

As for the vanilla stuff, I do not defend those posts. However, they were all made before 992 where I proved numerically that lynching vanillas was a bad thing. At the point in the game where those posts were made, I had not completed this analysis.

After 992 and your analysis, I changed my position as well. If we both believed the same thing, and changed our minds at the same time using the same data, how can you be so critical of my position?

Fair enough. This analysis seems accurate (though incomplete). I agree that killing Tar solely on his claimed van-townie to prevent recruitment is not as sound as I perceived it.

Without your "lynching vanilla's is scummy" on ice, your case has been reduced to this business with Flameaxe. So lets move on.

I will do the other three player's if you want me to; it could prove worthwile.

Don't bother, I am on it. I'll be answering the rest of your post as well.

[pwayne66]

In the scumdar post you did not differentiate flame. Then you vote flame for lurking (rightly so) and then you move to calling flame "scum" in your next scumdar (that's all you have to say)

A few post prior to this I stated my MoS/FA scumpair theory:

Mastermind of Sin - Scum. He jumped back on my radar. Yesterday, immediately after a bandwagon against Flameaxe started, he changed his stance to go after a very popular choice, Kakeng ( a diversion?) . This occurred after he passionately defended the call to get a role claim (so much so he voted for tyhess for disagreeing with him). So what's the point of getting a role claim if your going to kill a power role anyway? He then goes on to defend Flameaxe's absence (he also defended Flameaxe in his first few posts. Oman called him out on it. This is when MoS famously decided to stop answering questions in order to flush out scum.) Today he lists flameaxe as scummy with no explanation (distancing?).

...this in conjunction with white jumping my ass for not specifying whether I thought people were scum or not in my scumdar, and then coupled with the fact that the reasons that I have thought FA was scummy have been beaten to death, caused me to think that my choice of wording would be obvious.

My quibble with this is that you never explained why flame had become scum. He was scummy with other people in the first scumdar, then you voted for lurking, then he was simply "scum".

Same as above ^^.

I'd like to know when it was, and why, that your opinion on flame cemented such that he became obvscum to you and, moreover, why you neglected to explain this.

Same as above ^^.

Now, I did a thorough breakdown of attitudes toward FA from post 600 on:

627-791
This period was marked by bickering primarily between white and FA. Oman Votes for FA for a wisecrack that FA had made toward the Mod. Volk pressures FA a bit and eventually votes for him.
Oman drops his vote in post 679 indicating that his vote was a pressure vote and that FA was playing ball now. Tyhess FOSes FA in post 713 for being unhelpful. TH weighs in post 722 saying that he was not suspicious of FA:

This whole thing started off with Flameaxe saying that his schedule had gotten in the way of a deep analysis; something I can certainly sympathize with, given what I have on my plate right now. It looks like White just saw an opportunity to apply a little pressure to Flameaxe and look for scumtells. And then Flameaxe responded in kind. Natural mafia play. Null tells from both.
I was absent for the vast majority of this. When I did emerge in 791, I posted that FA was being unhelpful.

1006-1107
This is the period following me being grilled about my vote on Tar. Giving a scumdar, I say that FA is scummy:

Flameaxe- This guy. Doesn't want to play by the same rules as the rest of us. Sticks in head in rarely and then only to make contentless posts. You think Kakeng is bad, this guy has done it the whole game.

White and I get into it and I post a more direct and mocking version in 1010:

Flameaxe- I think flameaxe is scummy. Not wanting to play by the same rules as everybody else is scummy. Making infrequent posts is scummy. Making contentless post is scummy. Some people think that Kakeng is scummy because they think that making contentless posts and lurking is scummy. I think Flameaxe is more scummy that kakeng is scummy because flameaxe has been scummy the whole game. That is scummy.

Volk weighs in on 1018 saying:

Flameaxe - I didn't like him early on. His only post in this whole Pwayne-Tar affair was an "I told you so". His previous posts were all useless one-liners. 70%

In his scumdar, he lists:

me 75%
FA 70%
TH 65%
Theo65%
Oman65%
Kak 60%

Despite this he opts to vote for Kak (his number 6) in post 1022

In post 1044, I vote FA to avoid no lynch saying:

He's actively lurking and waiting for this deadline to expire.

In
1046 Volk follows suit putting a third vote on FA (the 2nd coming from White)

In post 1049 theo weakly suggests:

Flameaxe needs to pipe up. Other than that well I'm stumped.

In post 1061 TH indicates that he is more suspicious of tyhess that flameaxe by saying, well:

I'd certainly prefer to lynch tyhess than Flameaxe.

1068, after MoS pushes a Kakeng lynch, Volk states he would rather lynch FA. Followed by 1072-1080, where Theo, tyhess and Tar all support a kakeng lynch rather that FA.
But in 1081, Theo finally realizes that FA has been lurking!

...the longer Flameaxe fails to add content the more he concerns me, his lurking now - its active lurking because he's posting elsewhere concerns me greatly.

1083 MoS defends FA's absence

1086 Tar says

Flameaxe concerns me, but with the impending deadline I think that he will have to wait until tomorrow. Let's stay with the option that lets us get a lynch today, okay?

In post 1100 I point out that MoS defended FA.
In 1133 I announce my suspicions of MoS/FA. I call FA scum.
In 1135 Volk lists FA as his top suspect.
TH finally comes up to speed in 1142 with this

Well, I finally have a reason to be suspicious of Flameaxe; one that didn't arise until the end of the day, too late for me to respond to it. We were all scrambling to find someone to lynch (way better to take a shot then to no lynch), but Flameaxe seemed content to just sit back and let us fight. Maybe he didn't care if we ended up with a no lynch?

In 1160 I vote for FA "for reasons already stated."

This from Tar in 1165:

Oman and/or Flameaxe could use some pressure right about now, based on that reaction alone.

A great non-mention of FA by Theo in 1167:

Anyways I'm surprised at the reaction to Tar's vote . . I didn't find it all that scummy, random votes aren't scummy. Oman from a re-read bugs me a lot, yet if we have a cult about can they still recruit if so they are still a big problem and if they can then the likes of Tar are likely cultists.

In 1171 Volk votes for FA for "posts devoid of content"

Nothing new from post 1183 either...

Of the three current bandwagons, my preference would be for a Flameaxe vote, due to his unhelpfulness at the end of day 1.

or 1194 from TH either:

I'm thinking about a Flameaxe lynch, just for his apparent lack of interest at the end of day 1

In 1195 Oman offers this developed stance:

[quote ="Oman"]Aye Trojan, I'd go for a Flameaxe lynch.[/quote]

This was the real shocker. I assumed that Volk just missed this when he was accusing me of not having a good reason to lynch FA... but I was wrong...

[quote ="Volk"]You haven't mentioned any suspicion of flameaxe up until now.[/quote]

...so if he noticed, why am I the one he is brow beating?

1206 Theo suggests that TH and FA are a scumpair.

1218 Theo Votes TH
1219 Oman Votes TH
1238 Theo Votes FA (later he says for an unanswered question in 1232)
1254 tyhess Votes for FA
1262 Oman's weird lynch of FA.

How is it ridiculous?

The claim is ridiculous b/c

A- You can't call me scum for suggesting that we lynch claimed vanillas without being a hypocrite.

and

B- My contribution, stance, developed reasons whatever you want to call it for thinking that FA was scum and then voting to lynch him are better more solid, more consistent, and less suspicious than Oman's, tyhess' and Tar's, and at least as good as yours and theo's, possibly better. Your case is contrived and weak (which in itself is inconsistent and worthy of suspicion). At the very very least, my stance on FA was by far the least weak.

C- You have made ZERO connections between me and Oman! You have said I am scummy (a fact that you fail to support yet continue to hammer away upon) and two that Oman is scummy (with which I agree)

[pwayne66]

He gave them to CKD and MoS as well. ^^

[pwayne66]

The PBPAs seem to be a good idea. I'd like to grab on and do TH's. He is my number 2 at this point. Expect one tomorrow.

[pwayne66]

It's no small wonder that this has been reduced to quibbling. You keep changing your case against me!

First it was:

1) Anybody that pushes an anti town idea is scum
2) pwayne66 pushed an antitown idea
therefore) pwayne66 is scum!

after I pointed out that you pushed an anti town idea as well, you changed you theory so that it excluded you:

1) Anybody that pushes an anti town idea past post 992 is scum!
2) pwayne66 pushed an antitown idea past post 992
therefore) pwayne66 is scum!

When I decide to play along with your ridiculous "line in the message board" application of scumminess, and point out that I didn't push it after 992, you claim that I did... all the way to post 993 (gasp!!!)


This despite the fact that there can be no doubt that post 992 is what changed my mind. But you were aware of this right? That is why you change your position again to better make it fit:

1) Anybody that pushes an anti town idea past 951 is scum!
2) pwayne66 pushed an anti town idea past 951
therefore) pwayne66 is scum!

Lets be accurate though. Any of the following two are a more accurate representation of your argument:

1) Anybody that pushes an anti-town idea past the point when vollkan stops supporting it, is scum.

blah blah blah. I'm done defending myself on this issue against you. You have a clear agenda and I am not playing along with it. If anybody else has questions about this, I am game.

Now, I have a TH PBPA to do...

[pwayne66]

I think that anybody who advocates a position that is demonstrably anti-town is scummy when that position has been refuted, if they fail to properly address that refutation.

Long story short, I am sorry if you feel that I didn't give post 951 the consideration that it deserved. I was fighting off what I thought was a surprising situation, multiple posts from MoS, CDK and others. Oman was totally missing the point and was siding with me. You saying that I didn't consider the counter-cases is insulting. All I did that entire time is consider and defend my position against counter cases. It was the very fact that I consider your post 992 that caused me to change my position. Your revamped:

"I think that anybody who advocates a position that is demonstrably anti-town is scummy when that position has been refuted, if they fail to properly address that refutation."

...fails your scum test. I stopped supporting the position once I thought it was refuted. Perhaps you think I should have done so in 951 rather in 992. There were 14 hours between the two posts. I was asleep for several of them. If that is your case, so be it. I have no further defenses and I don't think any further defenses are necessary.

[pwayne66]

Well hell. Two things:

1) I'm doing this on my work computer. My work network blocks mafiascum so I run through a proxy. Since it takes 3-5 minutes for a page to load, I couldn't imagine going through 53 pages searching for TH's posts. I sorted by his name instead. The downside is that I don't have real post numbers, only the number of the post that HE made.

2) I'm tired. I'm going on vacation starting tomorrow, so I won't finish until Monday.

Here is what I have:

0- Random votes Dr.Bs
1- Comments on Dr. BS' sig
2- cult theory discussioon. goes to check on MoS
3- MoS is posting elsewhere
4- Tells tyhess he can't edit posts
5- Unvotes BS. Doesn't think he is scummy. Should we claim?
6- Disaproves of the Flamewagon.
7- Suspect tyhess. is he newbietown or newbscum?
8- Votes tyhess to "see how he reacts..."
9- unvotes tyhess. Looks more newbie than scum. gonna look at flameaxe next.
10- question's theo about his accusation of pwayne.
11- tyhess has been on all the wagons, unsure about him. Dr.BS and Flameaxe are okay. ACFAN votes one and FOS another. Votes tyhess
12- Doesn't like theo or his vote against pwayne. Theo=slightly scummy.
13- Defends push tyhess= "I guess his bandwagon jumping just didn't sit well with me. My vote still stands, though". ACFAN is lurking and has a weak argument against Oman.
14- TH post his scumdar:

Mastermind of Sin: So far, seems to have been playing exactly as per form, except for the fact that he didn't jump in until some time had passed. Unusual for a veteran like him, but perhaps he just forgot about this game.

Oman: Okay, I finally took a closer look at the "duel" between MoS and Oman a few pages back. So, Oman was suspicious of flameaxe and theo, while MoS was not so suspicious of them, and that set Oman off. Or something like that. (I'm a bit more confused about it now than I was before I read it.) That "duel" didn't make either of them seem more or less scummy to me.

ac1983fan: Hard to pick up on scumtells when there are so few posts to analyze. Perhaps a "come on now, talk" vote is in order. I'll think about it.

vollkan: Seems to be the most reasonable player so far. I really hope he's not scum.

Dr. Blackstrike: Dare I say it, his game has been the most similar to mine so far, outside of that faulty strategy comment at the start. An occasional post to say that he hasn't picked up on much yet, but that he's still looking. Guess I'd be the uber-hypocrite if I attacked him for that.

curiouskarmadog: Middle of the road. Haven't picked up on anything unusual yet.

pwayne66: Was one of those that helped disarm the early bandwagon on Dr. Blackstrike, and rightfully so. Then again, if the Doctor does turn up scum, this will be a mark on pwayne. Just something to file in the memory banks for later.

If I was really cruel, I'd pull out an LAL vote for pwayne, since he said he wouldn't post all weekend, then proceeded to post. Smile

tyhess: Still the newb, and still my vote, though I give him a slightly lower scumdar rating now than I did before. I'm open to alternatives.

Flameaxe: Was subject to an early bandwagon. I didn't quite buy the reasons for it at the time, and I still don't. Oy vey... I'm starting to realize that I've put most people into the "possibly scummy, but no hard evidence, I dunno" category, including Flameaxe. I gotta kick this scumdar again.

White (r. Rump-Wat): Man. He's posting way differently as White than he did as Rump-Wat. Maybe he got recruited during the day? Wink

Seriously though, White has a much better scumdar than I do if MoS turns out to be scum. I really don't want to jump on that bandwagon, considering MoS seems to be playing as usual. But I can't fault White for applying a little pressure.

(By the way, White, I'm only a newb when in comes to forum games. I've been "making my lettuce" in chatroom games.)

theopor_COD: An early lurker, but a solid contributer since.

Adds this at the end:

So, who's at the top of my list? Tyhess, barely. I guess acfan would be up there as well, simply because he's said so little...

15- tyhess is more mafia than cult. Says he will research MoS. Struggling to find evidence.
16- unvotes until acfan responds or is replaced. MoS's game style is different. MoS moves up scumdar..."OK, MoS. You may attack me back, now. "
17- MoS is acting more conservative than normal
18- tick tick waiting for acfan to post and for theo to breakdown all the players. "Hope he doesn't think I'm too scummy."
19- "Oh man. There was supposed to be a smiley at the end of that post. That comment was in jest."
20- ^^was intended for MoS^^
21- OMGUS vote on MoS. "This is about my gut feelings about him being scum."
22- Don't claim MoS! Unvotes MoS to give Kakeng time to post. Points out that MoS wasn't @ L-1.
23- Responding to White's suspicions about his rapid vote/unvote of MoS.
-"My vote was based on some very weak evidence"
-"I unvoted to give things some more thought; my concerns, weak as they were, were not "dealt with". I'll put the vote back on MoS if I can't find any better alternatives. "
-"But I'm not going to vote at all until acfan is replaced. "
24- Where is theo. This game is really MoS, pwayne, and white bickering.
25- Scumdar:

Mastermind of Sin: As I said before, took a while before honing in on a suspect. A bit longer than I thought he would take.

Oman: Pushing me into making this post. Wink

ac1983fan: Nothing beyond his total absence. I'll have to wait until he is replaced.

vollkan: Seems to have more interest in the game than anyone else. Maybe he's so interested because he's scum? (Weak, I know.)

Dr. Blackstrike: There was his strategy suggestion at the start, of course. But now there's something bigger: somehow, he keeps finding time to make posts, but not to make posts with any content to them. Doing just barely enough to avoid modkills and suspicion, perhaps?

curiouskarmadog: Can't find anything yet.

pwayne66: Defused the early bandwagon on Dr. Blackstrike. Could be townie behavior; could be he just didn't think the Doc was scummy. Or it could be he was defending a scummate.

tyhess: The bandwagon hopping is the most suspicious thing.

Flameaxe: Not posting since Monday, despite early contributions.

White: Being willing to replace into a silly game like this. Wink Seriously though, nothing looks fishy at all.

theopor_COD: The unwarranted attack on pwayne early on, back when pwayne was defusing the early bandwagon on Dr. Blackstrike. Does that contradict what I said about pwayne? I guess it does.

And finally, can't let myself off the hook:

Trojan Horse: Being swayed easily by other people's arguments. Are they really changing my mind, or am I scum trying to avoid suspicion?

26- BUMP!!
27- Says "no!" to no lynch
28- Redread some, didn't find much... CDK is the only player not to be accussed of being scum
29- DL exetension request
30- Responds to theo's accusation of "fencesitting"
-"The reason why you haven't seen any hardcore feelings from me yet is because... well... I sadly don't have any yet."
-" At the moment I'm looking at either lynching MoS for being a bit too conservative at the start, or lynching tyhess for too much bandwagon hopping."
Goes on to challenge theo on his Kakeng lynch logic.
31- Responds to white's FOS for not having opinions:
-"I said I had no HARDCORE feelings. I didn't say I had no opinions. I've had plenty of them"
-"If I don't find something better to go on, I'll have to vote for MoS or tyhess based on weak evidence. "
32- "Okay. I'll raise acfan/Kakeng's scummy level a notch. But just a notch."
33- ^^^Clarifies this statement^^^ AC's timing was questionable.
34- "Alright then MoS, I'll commit. Not happy about it, but I'll commit. " Votes tyhess
35- "I'm in a d***ed if I do, d***ed if I don't situation right now." Unvotes tyhess. and then:
-"I will point out one thing though; tyhess has now jumped onto yet ANOTHER new bandwagon."
36- Clarrifies that he forgot to put on a smiley to theo. POV on FA vs White? "Null tells from both."
37- Says that he needs to stop joking. Restates his case on tyhess.
38- "ust a note to say that I checked the thread once again, and that I'm signing off for the night. I'm tired, and I'm in no state of mind to respond to more arguments right now. It'll have to wait."
40- SCUMLIST:

In approximate order of scumminess:

tyhess: I know, I know, he's an easy target. But easy targets can be scum too. I think all his opportunistic bandwagon hopping is too much, even for a newb. If there had been a night round at the start, I wouldn't be as concerned. I would think tyhess is newbtown, since I would assume any newbscum would be cautioned by more experienced scummates not to stand out in the crowd. But we started with day. Could be tyhess is newbscum, and hasn't been forewarned.

MoS: It's still about how long it took for him to focus on a suspect at the start. Not something I would attack most players for, but this is MoS after all. Incidentally, if he is scum, that would've been a brilliant move on his part: pushing me into voting, knowing that everyone else would jump on me for it. But it's his behavior early in the game that I'm mostly concerned about.

curiouskarmadog: If you want to attack me for "flying under the radar" (as someone said), why aren't you attacking this guy too? We're in the same boat.

White: This would be my final option. He's been taking control since he replaced in, putting pressure on several people in turn. Scummy? Not in and of itself. That's what players do: look for scumtells. But is this his usual style of play? As I did with MoS, I'm going to take a quick look at some other games he's in and see if he's doing the same thing. If he is, fine. If not, I'll give him the eye of suspicion.

I see nothing in anyone else worth lynching over. You'd have quite a time trying to convince me to lynch someone other than these four.

41- "Yeah, forgot about acfan/Kakeng there. It was an awfully small notch. Smile Put him on at the same level as White: I expect that I'll be satisfied with Kakeng's behavior, and that will be that."

42- Asks Theo who is scum?
43- I'm no newbie!!! and, the timing of acfan's departure is a minor tell.
44- Looks over white's links, and is satified that white isn't scum.
45- Good bit of metagaming here clearing up suspicions about acfan's departure.
46- *awaits*
47- No excuse, MoS! /w smiley
48- ^^not an attack, an attempt at humor^^
49- Notes that humor is a scumtell...
50- Where is Tar?
51- "Ah, I see. Ok."
52- prods Tar
53- Kakeng is missing and it ain't right!
54- MoS was more suspicous before he got attacked than during.
55- whoaletmereadwhatmossaid
56- Jokingly tells tyhess not to joke.
57- He's with white on self imposed DL
58- Shakes head (rightfully so) @ pwayne for being suspicious about his random BS vote.
59- Is tyhess scummy or newbie?

[pwayne66]

Are you effing kidding me? Awesome... at little late, but awesome for future reference. I might even use it to run what I have of TH just with real post numbers. Anyway, off for St. Louis. Have a good weekend.

[pwayne66]

TH continued:

851- Tempted to lurker lynch Tar.
865- Ask Kakeng to post his breakdown.
867- *BUMP* Come on Kakeng.
871- Defends oman for reading the thread in an hour. threatens to lynch some lurkers
873- MODPROD
884- Reprimands Tar for not "getting into game". Threatens to vote for Kakeng if no post tomorrow.
889- "Say what?" to Tar's claim
907- Thinks tar could be scum and pulled similar stunt in mafia 68. FOS Tar, FOS kakeng
913- we have to lynch Tar.
953- Tar's no confirmed townie. pwayne doesn't deserve FOS. Votes Kakeng
1006- White's cool and I'm wishy washy and impressionable but I won't vote for pwayne
1047- See nothing wrong with FA.
1060- Votes tyhess for newbish comments
1064- tyhess could be scum or be a newbie
1065- whoa simulpost. Votes Kakeng
1141- I guess I am newbish too...
1162- Not for a Tar lynch
1168- recruits can't recruit. tyhess is reasonable. won't join omanwagon
1181- FoS FA
1182- pulls hair out
1193- thinking about a FA lynch
1217- should do a breakdown of theo
1235- Long defense following Oman's vote on him
1236- Continued
1256- FA, you are at L-1
1259- I noticed the claim
1271- My scumdar is broken...eyes pwayne vollkan or Oman
1275- Not for mass claim
1287- WE NEED TO PROTECT TH VIG!


In all, TH doesn't appear as scummy as I once thought. Got tagged with a wishy-washy label but that is about it by my estimate.

My scummy:

1) Oman
T-2) theo
T-2) TH
T-4) Vollkan
T-4) Tar

Without further ado-

Vote: Oman

He needs to squirm abit. He is taking his position most suspicious too lightly.

[pwayne66]

EBWOP- Theo is higher here for his recent inactivity. Volk and Tar are at the bottom for the likelyhood that they are either cult or town. I am not concerned with them right now.

[pwayne66]

trifecta!!

Trojan Horse - Numerous small scum tells aggregated, but he cleared them up rather well yesterday. Still scummy, but significantly less so.

Do you have anything to add to this?

[pwayne66]

There's a pretty strong case against him, IMO, especially given how much he seemed to focus on the Cult early in D1.

Make your case. I'm all ears.

[pwayne66]

Why is Oman most suspicious? I don't recall you having recently made any case against him.

1) Process of elimination

2)

Oman was only on Flameaxes but his hammer vote seemed really contrived to me.

3)

He needs to squirm abit. He is taking his position most suspicious too lightly.

My turn! When oman votes for me are you going to ask him the same question or are you going to let him slide like you did with FA?

It seems that your pal has suggested that he is ready to vote for me and despite the OMGUSiness of it, coupled with his lack of a "case" against me , he practically gets a pat on the back from you.

No.

Interesting...

Most recent scumdar.
Oman. 65%
Tarhalindur. 40%*
pwayne66. 70%
Trojan Horse. 70% **
theopor_COD. 55%


scumdar in 1274 (your "case" against TH)

Oman - 70%
Tarhalindur - 30%.
Pwayne - 70%.
Trojan Horse - 65%.
Theo - 55%.


The funny thing is this: Since then you have accused Oman and I of being scum together, yet you think he is less scummy now than when you though only that "Oman was unhelpful early on with a few tells".

TH is more scummy yet you have not changed your position or case. BTW...

Numerous small scum tells aggregated, but he cleared them up rather well yesterday. Still scummy, but significantly less so.

This is a very very weak case for a guy tied as your #1 most scummy. Speaking of ties:

Most scummy:

1) Oman
T-3) Vollkan
T-3) theo
T-3) TH
T-4) Tar

Your kids glove routine with Oman is begining to wear thin.

[pwayne66]

So, rather than actually going looking for evidence or a case, you are content to vote purely because other people appear less scummy than Oman. That's frankly ridiculous. If Oman is your number #1, build a case, look for evidence, give him an interrogation. The reference to the hammer vote is a start, but the responsible thing to do is to look for more.

That is what I am doing. Not that I don't appreciate the help and all, but I have it under control. Thanks.

[pwayne66]

I suppose I can but then again I can't. I listed three reasons that Oman is the most scummy. One of the big ones was number three where I suggested that Oman needed some pressure. Can you understand why I might be frustrated that you just took the bullet for him?

[pwayne66]

Dude, I know you pride yourself as being the "interrogator" and all, but you have already said this:

All I am saying is that if you think Oman warrants pressure/suspicion you need to actually find evidence.

...already, and I have responded, so what is it you want again?

[pwayne66]

3) Need to squirm...Taking his position most suspicious too lightly - And if he was getting edgy you would accuse him of being over-reactive; if he was ignoring it entirely you would accuse him of being evasive. Given the lack of any actual case, I fail to see precisely how Oman should have reacted to the suspicion. How people react to pressure/suspicion is more dependent on playstyle than anything else.

This is funny, because I feel the same way about the position that you put me in. If I drop my vote and try to build a case, you will say that I am wishy-washy. If I maintain my vote and begin to ask questions, You will say that I am trying to appease you. If I do neither and maintain my vote without asking questions, you will say that I am maintaining a position without building a case.

Oman is not scum hunting and Oman is not trying to remove himself from suspicion. I fully intend to ask questions when I am ready to, but if it means I have to clear my strategy with you first, why don't you just do it and save us some time. I just didn't get the impression that you were interested in busting any balls but mine.

[pwayne66]

Okay let's start here:

If Oman does OMGUS vote you, I will come down on him as well. He is right to question you though and to think about it.

This was the post in question:

I'm almost ready to vote pwayne, firstly he's broken the ice on the voting, but mostly, TH is suddenly not that scummy.

I definatly will think about this.

Notice that Oman has asked me nothing. He gives no reason for saying that TH seems less scummy. His only reason for suspecting me is apparently because I vote first today (a scumtell that you seem to subscribe to as well). You respond by saying that my posts are weird and call me out for asking Tar to make a case.

Questions for Oman:

1) What gives with the "I'm okay with a FA lynch" , with no reasons given?
2) What gives with the awkward FA lynch?
3) What reasons do you have to think that I am scum?
4) Could we get an up to date scumdar?
5) Why does TH seem less scummy to you?

Questions for Vollkan:

1) Do you believe that Oman's post offered any content or questions?
2) If not, why defend the post?
3) Please explain the ice breaking scum tell.
4) What about my posts were weird?
5) Why did you push that my reasons for voting FA were weak when Oman's were so very clearly weaker?

[pwayne66]

I'm gonna steal a

*headshake*

from TH here. Oman votes for TH with weak reasons. Vollkan gives him a playful swat and a half hearted reprimand and then proceeds to coach Omen on what his reasoning should be. I think I have our scum pair. Going to do some research.

[pwayne66]

Are you waiting for Vollkan to come and defend you or do you want to explain why I am wrong?

[pwayne66]

On a more somber note. Theo hasn't posted anywhere for a week now. I know that he said he would have trouble posting, but

MOD: can we get a prod

for theo and tar.

[pwayne66]

...oops. I knew that.

[pwayne66]

There were some questions surrounding my "I'm all ears" comment. Looking at Tar's posts reminded me. I don't think the comment was odd. Tar wanted to know why theo was getting off easy and thought that he was the most scummy. I was encouraging (imploring might be a better word) Tar to post his thoughts. If he thought that theo was the most scummy, he ought to tell us why, not expect us to do the research for him and say why we aren't pursuing him. It might have been better to ask Tar directly why he though theo was more scummy.

[pwayne66]

@Oman- You say that TH dropped many early scumtells. I think an accounting is in order. What were those scum tells?

[pwayne66]

Yeah, I have a bad feeling about this.

[pwayne66]

So no thought here tar?

[pwayne66]

Thanks MoS!

[pwayne66]

You guys are making my head hurt. Let me read and get a grasp. Numbers and probability are not my strong point...

[pwayne66]

Well, we lost the Roleblocker and the Vig, so that means that there are either no other power roles, or that there is as many as two other power roles.

With 5 left, that means a even with a successful lynch puts us (WCS): 2-1-1 and then a NK of town makes the town lose. If the mafia NK the cultie, 2-1 and we go to day 5.
A mislynch basically seals the deal though: 1-1-2. If we assume there is a cultie, I say yes to claim.

With no cultie, and a succesful lynch, 3-1. A NK, makes 2-1 and a mexican standoff at the end. A mislynch makes 2-2 and a town loss.

Unless I miss something, a claim might be in order.

[pwayne66]

Does anyone have any answers? =P

...or is MoS making inflated posts that equate only to "I don't know what's going on..." so's to pad his text acreage?

Pastries?

Anyway, as far as TH's take on Vollky, is quick hammering no-lynch really that scummy? Only if no-lynch didn't play into the town's benefit, then yes. I was on the fence yesterday, but have changed my tune so far today. We lost a Vig, but the scum seem to have saved us from lynching ourselves to oblivion.

Anyway... @MoS- what is your take on the mass claim?

[pwayne66]

townie

[pwayne66]

that's a vanilla townie, to avoid confusion.

[pwayne66]

No need on the prod (its only been through the weekend...)

TH- Has made his MoS case and it is a valiant effort (if he is scum or if he is town). The fact remains though, that I think it is flawed. Primarily for reasons that MoS, and Vollkan have already mentioned, the most significant being that MoSScum would want a mislynch, followed by a Oman NK. The trouble comes from this: Has TH just made an error or is he trying to push a mislynch? If TH is scum and Tar is his partner I would expect TH to be bussing Tar now. I know that he is a mislynch away from winning, but defending Tar and pushing this early in the day seems too risky a tactic for TH to try to pull off. On the other hand, TH being this assertive is unnerving. He has my spidey sense tingling a bit at the very least.

Volk- Still miffed and overly defensive about yesterday's crap. With Oman as the vig, Volk has dropped significantly on my scumdar. The fact that he waits until Oman is dead to make an issue out of my suspicions seems odd. Oman turning up vig doesn't change the fact that he was acting scummy yesterday. It doesn't change the fact that Vollkan seemed content on letting him pass with only token questioning. I was wrong, but this being a "significant issue" with me seems desperate.

MoS- I wasn't pleased with how the whole claiming thing went down. Despite the two earlier posts suggesting ideas, MoS insists on his list. The one that has him claiming last. I didn't make an issue of it at the time and I only do it now to point this out. MoS-scum, being the last to claim, could have easily claimed a power role. One question though. Do this:

Funny that you all of a sudden believe the scum had a power role...With there being a cult AND 2 mafia, I wouldn't think the mafia would have much power with only a roleblocker and vig on our side. This suggestion of yours makes so much sense it's pretty clear you're coming with outside information here.

...mean that you suspect the mafia has an information role?

[pwayne66]

I realize that it is possible that you turned up last on a random list. I don't, however know if the "dice roll" function is forge-able through font tags and such. I experimented a bit prior to my claim, but found nothing (the quote boxes seem to be the problem), so I didn't mention it.

[pwayne66]

Tar, when tuesday comes about, I would like to know why you have managed to make 32 mostly content based posts in other games since your last post here a week ago.

[pwayne66]

Oh, and about the possibility that MoS forged the dice roll thing: heh. I do think he's scum, but I don't think he'd pull a stunt like that, even if it were possible.

I don't think that he did either. I was just saying that that was the first thing I thought of when I saw the list.

[pwayne66]

Tar's effort is impressive but does somehow warrant some suspicion given his previous inactivity. I am waiting for him to unveil the rest of his conclusions before I comment on them.

[pwayne66]

Tar is trying, he is posting and that pleases me. He did some research and tried to come to a conclusion. I think he failed to come to that conclusion.

Echoing negative sentiment? That's a weird thing to say. The only negative sentiment seems to be from you. TH agrees with the conclusion. MoS hasn't been overly outspoken about it. I stated what came to mind. The fact that he has managed to coast to the endgame, but then decides it is time to roll up his sleeves and help guide the town, makes me suspicious. Who's sentiment am I echoing?

As far as why I want to wait, Tar has trouble keeping up. Allowing for him to say everything that he would like to say before giving him a punch list of challenges and questions seems to be the best play. You are right, it might be awhile, but I think a lot can be learned by his posts. TH and Tar both seem intent on making a case. I say: Let them, you don't have anything to fear do you? The fact that they seem to be targeting you on weak logic isn't significant until Tar finishes his case.

BTW

MOD

can we prod Tar?

[pwayne66]

...its hard to read your sig when you won't post. A better option would be to tell us yourself.

[pwayne66]

Tar has jumped up on my scumdar, he is posting in other threads (not much, but he is reading and posting as late as yesterday.

I will examine the TH case this weekend.

[pwayne66]

Thanks Tyhess. Prod received etc, etc, etc.

I don't buy into TH's MoS theory. It's my feeling that had we lynched yesterday, we would have lynched oman. (I may be wrong but that seems to have been the direction we were going). MoSscum would have been content with this lynch and even more so by having a chance to NK yet another protown player. The only reason I can see MoSscum pushing no lynch is if there was a chance to lynch him or his partner.

On top of this, if MoS knew that Oman was Vig (as TH suggest) he would be doubly happy with this lynch. This doesn't mean that MoS is not scum, only that I am not compelled to believe so based solely on the arguments that you have made.

[pwayne66]

No lynch, to me, just seems like a risky thing to advocate and especially if you are scum. I haven't played much, (a few games now) but I have never encountered a situation where pushing "no lynch" didn't result in the pusher looking either scummy or foolish; so the risk/cost of the no lynch seem to outweigh the benefits for scum.

Its possible that MoS, knowing oman's role, feared him claiming and pushed "no lynch" instead, but it seems to be a stretch. Even discarding Volkan's argument that MoS would counterclaim, Oman dies with a NK. It is still more likely that a townie gets lynched than scum (considering the 6 players, with one claimed makes 3-2 split). I would expect scum to take those odds over pushing something as dangerous as "No Lynch". Maybe I am wrong about the dangers of pushing "no lynch". If so, some more experienced players may be able to enlighten me.

[pwayne66]

Am I the only one who has heard of this situation before?

I've not heard of it. Is it possible? Will the Mod process both choices or give priority to one over the other?

[pwayne66]

MoS, have you heard of this scenario before?

[pwayne66]

ah. I must have missed that.

[pwayne66]

I was just getting comfortable with a tar/TH pairing... TH/vollkan is certainly compelling. Oman being vig took the wind out of my sails re: my vollkan = scum suspicions, but that may have been premature. I think tyhess's case needs a little more substance before I buy it though... going to do some TH/Vollkan connection research.

[pwayne66]

I'm leaning toward's TH being the best bet. Either way I cut it, he is the common denominator. Tyhess is vastly improved over tar, but his accusations fail to make any real sense. I am still reading with an emphasis on TH and Vollkan, but I don't find a lot to indicate a connection thus far.

[pwayne66]

You just said it yourself - if Oman had not died last night, MoS would only be averagely scummy to you. That effectively negates the whole No Lynch argument of yours, since it demonstrates that the major factor in your suspicion (tipping MoS from "average" to your #1) is the fact that Oman was NKed.

I don't understand this. Maybe I am an idiot (possible) or its just to early here (very likely). How does Oman's death negate the no lynch?

[pwayne66]

Again with the effing math. Anyway, suspicion of TH's comment seems to hinge on the belief that the mafia has an information role. This was originally TH's thought and I am skeptical to accept it. TH had this to say prior to making the suggestion:

But how could they believe that Oman was the vig? He hadn't dropped any vig tells, as far as I could see.

Which can be viewed as scum effing with us, or the way I took it at the time; uncertainity. I didn't think that Oman dropped any tells either. If he didn't that leaves us with luck or a information role. I haven't played many games, but scum information roles seem rare. The odds that scum hit the vig based on luck seems unlikely too, because if they didn't think he was the vig, then what possible advantage was there to killing him.

Also, I wonder, if TH had gathered the information that Oman was the Vig through a mafia investigation, why would he suggest that was how the mafia did it?

The existance of such a role also might have given a heads up to the mafia about the existance of a vig prior to the game begining. It would be interesting to gauge those reaction the morning of day 2.

[pwayne66]

TH remains number 1. The above from Vollkan is a decent summary, but I especially take issue with TH early playstyle as it compares to his late game playstyle. Early, not alot of speculation or theorizing on his part. He refers to his "broken scumdar" to excuse it. Now, at the most crucial point, he seems very interested and very certain that MoS is scum. This is what gets me. I see no reason in holding off, deadline looms and I don't anticipate being online alot prior to then.

Vote: Trojan Horse

[pwayne66]

And a good game to you as well.

[pwayne66]

I don't know why anybody would post any scathing posts about your play. I think that you played well. Also, you stuck through to the end which is invaluable.

Why do you think that you played poorly?

[pwayne66]

Wow. MoS was cult? I had really dismissed that possibility.

As far as everything else, it was a pleasure being partners with Vollkan. I don't know how he nosed in on Oman. When he brought up killing Oman, I was against it. He finally convinced me otherwise and assured me that he was the vig.

I felt that the end drug out longer than needed. I have had a sinking suspicion that MoS was onto me since day 1, first as himself and then as theo. I imagined him waiting for me to jump the TH wagon just to unvote and pull the rug out from underneath me. Whether or not this is true, props to MoS. His unpredictable play kept me more cautious than I like to be.

I enjoyed the game (wished there was more "cult" in Cult mafia) and I think the setup worked/would have worked beautifully.

[pwayne66]

Heh. I mustn't have explained it to you.

You explained it the night of the kill and it made sense then, its just that my analytic skills are either really lacking or yours is very acute. I would have never caught that if you hadn't brought it to my attention.

[pwayne66]

dammit had pwayne nailed

I figured that you did. I thought that nearly everybody on my wagon was reluctant to lynch me... but you. I knew that Vollkan would back off if I could give him a good way out and by this time I had learned that both MoS and White like to feign belligerence and blood lust in order to gauge reactions, but not you. You wanted me dead. I thought that you might get your wish too... I had no idea that you were cult though. BTW... why theo?