Mini 1040 - Everyone's A Critic! [Game Over]

[mykonian]

Hi


Ok, just a few things we know now already.

1. Kunkstar has asked someone to review this game (most likely), just check the New Setup Review thread. I thought it to be his second post. We may therefor assume we are in a balanced setup.
2. if scum would get the Vig ability, they would pass it around the team, thereby creating a second mafia kill. The mechanic would be useless, and almost never 2 mafia kills are balanced in a mini, so the current Vig is a townie.

tomorrow, the first thing this "vig" must do, is claim that he was the vig the first day. He is from then on a confirmed townie

.
3.

[*]

A clarification of Action Resolution:

The passing of the Vigilante ability onto another player occurs last in the series. Therefore, a kill targeted at the owner of the ability on night start will successfully eliminate the ability.

there is a second kill, most likely the mafia's. A 12 player game is hardly balanced if there are 3 kills or more, so we might assume we have only 1 scumteam to take care of, most likely a 3 membered one.

4. In a 9-3 setup with 2 kills, after today's lynch, tomorrow could be our last lynch. After a mislynch and a misvig d1 and n1, 6-3 remains. If the same happens again, we lose. With 4 tries before this happens, though, I don't think we should be that worried.

[mykonian]

jack is town. David is town because he notices it.

Great. Only 7 more to go, and we know who the mafia are.

[mykonian]

is this the "vote xscorpion till the game blows" game?

sorry, I'm not playing. I'll give you a hint. What you want, is to make xscorpion the

second

bandwagon target. By then, he has usually done something that could be explaned as scummy. Bandwagoning him then will make the case grow, discusion starts, everybody happy.

But starting with xscorpion is opportunistic. Scum knows he has trouble at the start of the game, so they will vote him right away. This is easy, and scum hopes this sets them up for an easy day.

VOTE: haschel

[mykonian]

good, people have noticed you aren't the most experienced player.

Now, if you want a full theory discussion why selfvoting is not the best choice, please go to md. Further, you might also want to think if this really was random (or if you had a thought with it, which you kept hidden). If you like philosofy, you might want to do that. It should keep you busy for at least an hour.

Please play the game.

[mykonian]

Mykonian, I think you're taking them too seriously. The rest of town is in RVS, even if you aren't.

Theory discussion.

Why are we in RVS. To start the game.
what is the game? hunting scum and scum hiding.
what do we do in RVS? starting to hunt scum, or starting to hide.


Are you scum?

[mykonian]

stef, please read it again.

You are missing that I'd like today's vig, after he has passed his ability on, to claim.

[mykonian]

to clarify what you are missing, seen your post:

2. if scum would get the Vig ability, they would pass it around the team, thereby creating a second mafia kill. The mechanic would be useless, and almost never 2 mafia kills are balanced in a mini, so the

current

Vig is a townie.

tomorrow, the first thing this "vig" must do, is claim that he was the vig the first day. He is from then on a confirmed townie

.

[mykonian]

He's using nothing but mod wifom (scum couldn't possibly get two night kills because that would be unblanced) to state that any person who has been the vig is a townie.
1. Most Mini games are unbalanced and biased towards scum, even after they are reviewed.
2. You don't know the rest of the PRs in the game.
3. You have no way of knowing if the Vig role hasn't been assigned completely random for today.

By what the mod is telling us the vig can be scum as well as town because he repeatedly used the word "player". By what mykonian is telling us,

tomorrow, the first thing this "vig" must do, is claim that he was the vig the first day. He is from then on a confirmed townie.

Therefore my problem with what he's saying. He is outguessing the mod and using that guess to call the D1 vig a confirmed townie.

Preview edit:
I've read what you are saying. You are still wrong for the reasons above.

So you assume that the mod would let his mechanic being ruined by accidentaly giving it to scum (who would then pass it on between them)

In stead of letting town have it at first and see if they could pass it on between them or if scum would look town enough?

omgus vote Stef

You are assuming a totally unbalanced setup and a possibly pointless mechanic from Kunkstar and his reviewer (who both aren't stupid), just to justify your vote on me. You are the scum here.

[mykonian]

Two kills a night for scum seems like a pretty far stretch though.

and it would make the mechanic pointless (nobody would have to guess who to pass the vig to, as scum know each other)

Stef is assuming a situation which isn't there, just to

justify

his vote on me.

[mykonian]

I don't see wrong as scummy here

Normally it isn't. However, when pointed out where you are wrong, trying to be consistent, while no more arguing from a point where you believe someone is scum is scummy.

Just ask yourself this: why did Stef post these two posts. He didn't have a scumread from other posts yet. His point is not "myk is trying to make a scumbuddy a confirmed townie", no it is "myk is trying to confirm someone he shouldn't". He is arguing I'm wrong, not that I'm scum.

With this, it suddenly becomes suspicious that he "tunnels" right away, as he has no scumread backing it up. While when it is pointed out he is wrong, he doesn't change anything.

Because I left this post standing for a while, I'll react to the later posts in the next one.

[mykonian]

Serious question for mykonian. Why is a wagon on XScorpion scummy, whereas a wagon on any of the other players is not?

Reputation

right isn't not scummy either, myk did you really find stef suspicious?

after calling out I was wrong? no
after continuing and using the words "modwifom" which is supposedly bad, and using that to continue that he was "right" which is just an easy way for scum to keep arguing without saying anything? yes.

oh, and backing off doesn't change anything to what happened.

omgus vote Stef

You are assuming a totally unbalanced setup and a possibly pointless mechanic from Kunkstar and his reviewer (who both aren't stupid), just to justify your vote on me. You are the scum here.

Can you explain this paragraph?

my excuses.

Stef assumes that the mod and his reviewer would make a ridiculous inbalanced setup. 2 kills for the mafia would be ridiculously imbalanced. Further, the mechanic would be pointless if mafia had it from the start: there would be no gambling with passing the vig.

This all means that Stef assumes the mod to be a complete moron. He did this, so his vote on me made sense, as I would have been wrong (if those assumptions held)

[mykonian]

He is arguing I'm wrong, not that I'm scum.

This is what human reason evolved to do:

Short abstract (95 words).
Reasoning is generally seen as a mean to improve knowledge and make better decisions. Much
evidence, however, shows that reasoning often leads to epistemic distortions and poor decisions.
This suggests rethinking the function of reasoning. Our hypothesis is that the function of reasoning is
argumentative. It is to devise and evaluate arguments intended to persuade. Reasoning so conceived
is adaptive given human exceptional dependence on communication and vulnerability to
misinformation. A wide range of evidence in the psychology or reasoning and decision making can be
reinterpreted and better explained in the light of this hypothesis.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=w ... NQ&cad=rja

Jack, nice abstract. Do you agree that on ms, you are trying to convince others that someone is scum? (that is, if you are town).

Most reasonings start in a "Stef is scum, because ..."

stef started with a "myk is wrong because". He is arguing, but not hunting for scum (at least, that was not the first thing on his mind)

[mykonian]

weird. I thought the "you know why" showed you knew him well enough.

I usually wait a little time to vote, as to make my vote not completely random (which is something I hate). My first post always provides content though. If nothing else would come up, I would vote for the person at the start of the Scorpion bandwagon, as that would give less trouble later. (scum wouldn't be accused of bandwagonning, wouldn't need reasons to start a wagon, and wouldn't get in the spot where they were accused of forcing through a mislynch) Sitting at the start of the scorpion wagon without actually having to fuel the wagon is by far the best spot for scum to be in this game (where no other players with a reputation of being an easy lynch are playing)


Don't want to insult you scorpion. It probably has already become a selffulfilling profecy that you are an easy lynch

[mykonian]

If nothing else would come up, I would vote for the person at the start of the Scorpion bandwagon, as that would give less trouble later.

Why would you be concerned about your vote giving trouble later?

It would mean less trouble for scum, sitting at the start of the bandwagon. I explained this further in that post. Sorry for the weird sentences. It is getting a little late, and when I am trying to type something quickly, things are going wrong, and it becomes hard to understand.

[mykonian]

Don't want to insult you scorpion. It probably has already become a selffulfilling profecy that you are an easy lynch

I haven't played with anyone on my wagon except danakillsu and stef (who i haven't finished a game with). How many of them do you think are voting me based on my reputation?

and here I was thinking you played a lot of games with a lot of players...

just remember this for the next game everyone: mykonian likes to bandwagon xscorpion if mykonian thinks there isn't enough discussion, or if he wants to gain quick townie points (depending on role)

[mykonian]

Scorp get's just a fos for now but we got bigger fish to fry right now.

this is stef's first mention of scorp. This is page 2. Scorp hasn't done anything scummy, however is the first BW. this FoS... is terrible!

anyway, the same FoS is converted into a vote when Stef his argument against me fails (he backs off after scorpion and Jack state he is wrong). it is still terrible!


Run, scum, run!

[mykonian]

Hey danakillsu, what do you think of Mykonian's play?

what do you think of my play?

[mykonian]

Well, y'all must have different meta with XScorp than I do. In both games I've played with him he's been tough as nails,

although it took him a while to warm up in the first.

I get the opposite impression from him at the moment. That is, he's a more difficult lynch than, say, Antihero or dana, which seem like they may roll over more easily.

anyway, thank you for updating me on dana and antihero.

and you voted dana... for being an easy lynch?

[mykonian]

pressure votes are overrated, esspecially when they are called pressure votes.

anyway, come back to the stef wagon. It is by far the best.

[mykonian]

Nah, I like my vote now. It's on someone who is definitely being anti-town.

no, it is on someone who selfvotes, has been a reasonable player further and has already made attempts to get the town discussing.

Meaning your vote might very well be on a towny that is actually helping the town. I wouldn't call Jack antitown.


@ dana. It isn't the scummiest vote so far. That has been stef's vote on Xscorpion, which seems to be supported by evidence, but actually isn't!

[mykonian]

Yes stef, you are the scummiest person around now. You are the only one that has made 2 definate scumtells. You don't even bother telling people why you did vote scorpion. (actually, you have no reasons.)

I feel like keeping my cards close to my chest for a while, experimental thing.

Ok, Jack. Just a word of advise and caution: first, that doesn't keep you from generating information. Posting might help you there. It works as a decent smokescreen for holding back information (at least during day 1). And I wouldn't keep it up much longer, as people are going to hate you when you did figure out who was scum but got killed N1 without telling the rest who actually were scum.

[mykonian]

Sorry bout that, I still have to wash the bad taste of Open 231 out of my mouth. I sometimes forget that people might actually answer me when I ask them why they're voting...

So... you apologize for not asking what my reasons were for voting for you. Nice. Liking my vote. Also, OMGUS rocks!

What?

This is stef generating a case while he is already voting xscorp. Again, scumhunting the wrong way around (town first makes a case, then votes. Scum pressures the townie, then makes the case based on reactions)

theory

OMGUS is the acronym used for a vote which has no reason other then that the person you vote voted you.
In this case, Stef voted scorp without any reason, while pretending to have them.

Scorp votes Stef

for having no reasons for his vote

.
Scorps vote on stef is therefor legitimate, while Stef's accusation that scorps vote is OMGUS is wrong.

[mykonian]

doesn't make Stef look better, does it?

Anyway, the "generating a case" part is about that.

[mykonian]

Scorp get's just a fos for now but we got bigger fish to fry right now.

this is stef's first mention of scorp. This is page 2. Scorp hasn't done anything scummy, however is the first BW. this FoS... is terrible!

anyway, the same FoS is converted into a vote when Stef his argument against me fails (he backs off after scorpion and Jack state he is wrong). it is still terrible!


Run, scum, run!

Great, Stef! This is 2 pages ago, where I mention for the first time that you had no reasons for your FoS, and that your vote lacks reasons too. You have in these two pages never responded to this post by giving the reasons you had. You are now implicating you had them.

I want your reasons for that FoS, and that vote, please. Show me how I missed them

[mykonian]

Posting all Stef's posts till his scorpion vote.

Hello! Nice to be playing with some people I've played with before.

Vote David Parker

for being the first to post.

2. if scum would get the Vig ability, they would pass it around the team, thereby creating a second mafia kill. The mechanic would be useless, and almost never 2 mafia kills are balanced in a mini, so the current Vig is a townie.

tomorrow, the first thing this "vig" must do, is claim that he was the vig the first day. He is from then on a confirmed townie

.
3.

[*]

A clarification of Action Resolution:

The passing of the Vigilante ability onto another player occurs last in the series. Therefore, a kill targeted at the owner of the ability on night start will successfully eliminate the ability.

2. Hmmm...

Following the use of the Vigilante ability (or lack thereof), the current holder must select

a player

to pass the ability on to.

The ability will then move on to the selected player for their use.

The Vigilante Ability stacks with any ability you may have in your original Role PM.

What you are saying could look like you are trying to set-up false townie confirmations. Just saying.

Unvote Parker, Vote mykonian

Scorp get's just a fos for now but we got bigger fish to fry right now.

No reasons for the FoS. This was post 35.

He's using nothing but mod wifom (scum couldn't possibly get two night kills because that would be unblanced) to state that any person who has been the vig is a townie.
1. Most Mini games are unbalanced and biased towards scum, even after they are reviewed.
2. You don't know the rest of the PRs in the game.
3. You have no way of knowing if the Vig role hasn't been assigned completely random for today.

By what the mod is telling us the vig can be scum as well as town because he repeatedly used the word "player". By what mykonian is telling us,

tomorrow, the first thing this "vig" must do, is claim that he was the vig the first day. He is from then on a confirmed townie.

Therefore my problem with what he's saying. He is outguessing the mod and using that guess to call the D1 vig a confirmed townie.

Preview edit:
I've read what you are saying. You are still wrong for the reasons above.

Hmm... I was wrong. Scum having the vig ability would mean they could just pass it on among themselves and thus completely breaking the game. Mykonian is therefore probably right and not scummy for that post.

Unvote, Vote Scorp

And his vote. Still no reasons why Scorp is scum. This was post 46

[mykonian]

I posted my reason for voting Scorp after I voted for him. At this moment you're just spamming.

Then why the hell did you FoS him?

it implies suspicion: what were you suspicious of? Just for once

answer my question!

[mykonian]

@The Scorp Fos/Vote: I've seen him react to pressure and I thought it would be a good place to put some to get reactions. Once I voted he voted right back instead of asking for reasons. That => he voted for me voting for him. If he would have had a problem with my reasons he would have asked, something I pointed out previously. It's just fishy.

I can't really blame him. First, your FoS was made while you had "reasons" to vote me. It is a

Finger of Suspicion

, you now acknowledge that you actually weren't suspicious of him then. Then you vote Xscorpion while your vote on me failed, and again you weren't yet suspicious of him (it was a pressure vote), but Xscorpion was

by chance

the largest bandwagon. You didn't actually notice.

I have in my whole carreer never heard of a "pressure FoS". People don't get pressure by it anyway, and it is mostly a way of giving the rest of the game a hint that you found something suspicious. The second part that really makes me doubt you, is that on the moment your case on me fails, you hop on Xscorpion.


And then the thing I absolutely hate. In this case it isn't even scorpions mistake. You vote him without being suspicious of him, then he has to react. From then on, you, Stef, say he should have

asked

in stead of voted you. You are creating a situation where scorpion can't do anything right. No wonder you suddenly "find" reasons to continue your vote on him later. (when you switched it from a pressure vote to a serious one).

See, I don't have a problem with pressure votes, but I do have with "pressure FoS's" and I do have a problem with pressure votes becoming serious votes for horrible reasons (he voted me after I made an unreasoned vote on him!)

when Stef his argument against me fails (he backs off after scorpion and Jack state he is wrong).

GAH! This is just you twisting events into looking suspicious. What happened is: You said something, I disagreed and brought arguments, you brought some more arguments, I saw your point and realized that I was wrong and backed off.

You are saying that I had an argument against you, some people told me I am wrong so I just dropped it to avoid pressure which is not what happened. [/quote]

Surprising that first Jack and scorpion have to agree with me before you finally backed off. And even more surprising "backing off" means autovoting the largest bandwagon, which really troubles me...

[mykonian]

Just so that everybody knows what the current points against Stef are (don't read it if you have read the thread well):

...
What you are saying could look like you are trying to set-up false townie confirmations. Just saying.

Unvote Parker, Vote mykonian

Scorp get's just a fos for now but we got bigger fish to fry right now.

A FoS that actually doesn't show suspicion, while the vote on another player does.

He's using nothing but mod wifom (scum couldn't possibly get two night kills because that would be unblanced) to state that any person who has been the vig is a townie.
1.

Most Mini games are unbalanced and biased towards scum, even after they are reviewed.

2. You don't know the rest of the PRs in the game.
3. You have no way of knowing if the Vig role hasn't been assigned completely random for today.

By what the mod is telling us the vig can be scum as well as town because he repeatedly used the word "player". By what mykonian is telling us,

tomorrow, the first thing this "vig" must do, is claim that he was the vig the first day. He is from then on a confirmed townie.

Therefore my problem with what he's saying. He is outguessing the mod and using that guess to call the D1 vig a confirmed townie.

Preview edit:
I've read what you are saying. You are still wrong for the reasons above.

In the bolded, first reason, stef says that he votes me because two people would have missed that this game becomes pointless if the vig is given to scum day 1 (and hugely unbalanced for a mini). That is seriously stretching to maintain a vote on someone.

Hmm... I was wrong. Scum having the vig ability would mean they could just pass it on among themselves and thus completely breaking the game. Mykonian is therefore probably right and not scummy for that post.

Unvote, Vote Scorp

Backing off, joining a bandwagon with a converted pressure FoS.

...

Before I unvote though, Scorp, something jack noticed does strike me as a lil bit odd. I know that I initially voted you to add some pressure, however, you seem to be fine parking your vote on me without me giving any reasons and adding pressure is obviously not it. Why not ask if I don't give any reasons? Would it be because it gives you an excuse to park your vote?

Sorry bout that, I still have to wash the bad taste of Open 231 out of my mouth. I sometimes forget that people might actually answer me when I ask them why they're voting...

So... you apologize for not asking what my reasons were for voting for you. Nice. Liking my vote. Also, OMGUS rocks!

And here stef converts his pressure vote to a serious one. Scorpion's vote wasn't OMGUS, and the above was at most a doubtful scumtell. Stef was building his case on scorp while his vote was already there, and this made that the reasoning for his scorpion vote were incredibily weak all the time.

@stef. In stead of flat out calling me a liar, please defend against these points, give quotes where I must be wrong etc.

[mykonian]

Your problem regarding my FOS is a personal view. It cannot be argued anymore than my personal view can. In my view I didn't do anything wrong.

You are creating a situation where scorpion can't do anything right.

Nope. He could have asked. I even called him on it. Anyway, don't care enough about this argument to keep pushing it.

Asking is weak. I loved this approach. If he had asked, you could have voted him for the same.

And that FoS is certainly not only my personal view, seen as HackerHuck disagreed with you on the same too. Calling it "pressure-something" is brilliant to avoid having to give reasons for them. You haven't done anything good with it (as nobody is impressed with a FoS). As HackerHuck pointed out, your "pressure vote" on Scorpion was quite useless too (because of the unvote before). Your first vote on me was a mistake, and your last is simple omgus ("you lie about me! I have given a reason for my vote, later!"), which seen as your reason for a scorpion vote is horrible hardly holds.

So Stef, what good have you actually done in this game?

[mykonian]

Why exactly could I vote for someone who asks why I'm voting for said someone? O_o

weaksauce. Being careful, etc. Am I the only one that thinks that it is a scumtell if you are trying to stay friends with everyone?

So... your saying that my reason of pressuring Scorp was brilliant to not explain my vote? Why would I just want to cast a vote and give no explanation for it? My vote on you was not a mistake. I voted you because I thought you were scummy for trying to false-confirm a partner D2. It can still be interpreted as such as there is no way, beyond any doubt, to know this game's setup. I unvoted then just because your reasoning was plausible. My second vote on you was also valid and not an OMGUS. Lying & misreping are clear scumtells. OMGUS means to vote for someone

primarily

because that person is voting for you. This is not the case. When we're both very aware of what OMGUS means and still call my vote two different things it is a matter of personal view or intent of manipulation.

What good have I actually done this game? More than half the players in the game.

Calling someone a liar is so easy. Saying someone is misrepping you is a bit harder. Get some quotes and try to convince the rest If you can't, your vote is an OMGUS-vote, k?

[mykonian]

Your lie was that I never explained my vote for scorp. You pushed that lie a lot.

Sorry, I assume people give reasons before they vote. Further, pressure proved to be the reason, but later the vote became serious and I had more trouble understanding that.

Just ask yourself this: why did Stef post these two posts. He didn't have a scumread from other posts yet. His point is not "myk is trying to make a scumbuddy a confirmed townie", no it is "myk is trying to confirm someone he shouldn't". He is arguing I'm wrong, not that I'm scum.

This is a misrep - I clearly suggested you were scummy for trying to mislead the town into confirming scum. Jack called on your misrep as well.

Jack and I talked about this, yes.

I'll get the quote of what troubled me, it'll clarify this:

What you are saying could look like you are trying to set-up false townie confirmations. Just saying.

Unvote Parker, Vote mykonian

The "could look like", and "false townie confirmations" triggered me. In stead of saying "myk is trying to get his scumbuddy falsely confirmed" which would be arguing with as a starting point that I am scum, you started with that "I was wrong". The difference is that town has scumhunting on his mind, and will usually start with "myk is scum because", in stead of "myk is wrong because".

This all means that Stef assumes the mod to be a complete moron. He did this, so his vote on me made sense, as I would have been wrong (if those assumptions held)

This is a misrep - I never assumed the mod to be anything but fair. I make the correct assumption that we do not know the setup of the game and that it is not impossible for Mafia to start with the vig-kill. You assume that if this was the case than the mod would be a complete moron, not me.

[/quote]Seen the answer of the mod, you proved to be right. The mod does disappoint me a bit, though. (sorry kunk, it isn't that terrible)

when Stef his argument against me fails (he backs off after scorpion and Jack state he is wrong).

This is a misrep - you suggest that I backed off because people pressured me to. I did no such thing. I backed off because I saw that I might be wrong.

I can't really misrep you here. I see Scorp posting, I see Jack posting, I see you backing off. Can't really do anything with your "but I had other motivations".

Basically, Stef, these all are misunderstandings, from my and your side. Wouldn't want to vote on that

[mykonian]

@Mod: was the Vig role assigned D1 randomly only to the town player pool or the entire player pool?

The Vigilante Ability was assigned randomly from the entire pool.

Soooo, what did we learn. If scum has the vig right now, Stef could have been arguing from the point where he knows he is right.
If scum doesn't have the vig right now, Myko could have been arguing from the point where he thought he knew he was right.

Who else had big opinions in the "vig=town" debate?

[mykonian]

Also, it's extremely easy to call a misrep a misunderstanding. The difference only stands in your intention on which we can just speculate.

Which is why I answered with my point of view Does that hold? then we had a misunderstanding. If they don't, I'm a manipulating scumbag, who uses manipulation to get townies lynched

[mykonian]

That was an actual misunderstanding I apparently shared with mykonian. We were both under the impression you voted for me after I voted for you. I didn't say you should explain what I'm thinking. I'm saying you should have asked for my reasons. Asking a question is the opposite of explaining something. How exactly did you mix the two? Again with the "no reason"? Really?

Why aren't you voting for mykonian for "lying" about the same thing?

Because myko didn't think that situation scummy, if it had occurred.

another point to add to the stef-case: a clear cut deflection.

Because mykonian didn't decide to base a vote on me by calling my vote OMGUS.

Your vote was not OMGUS when it was cast. It became OMGUS when you left it on me for OMGUS reasons.

it was never OMGUS.

Lynch all liars is a great policy. I use it all the time.

You didn't answer my question. Policy lynching =/= lynching scummy players.[/quote]I policy lynch scummy players.

[mykonian]

Then freaking unvote and vote one of them! I'm tired of asking.

Then don't ask--it's an MD debate as to whether it's a good strategy or not. Did you read the article I posted?

I feel like I have a good grip on this game, but things are still developing. I'm very content to watch them develop.

Jack, I'm not. Playing the mafiaSSK way (strategic lurking as town) is mostly a selfprotecting way of play, rather then townie. If you want a theory debate, you can get it.

assuming each player adds something to the discussion (new ideas, new cases, etc), it is in the towns benefit that everybody joins in the creation of information. How this information is generated or what is done with it initially doesn't really matter (as in, you can totally lie about your intentions there, if you can get away with it), but as long as it is analysed before the end of the day, you are doing fine. On this moment, Jack, you are not creating. In a way you are holding back town, and that is certainly a disadvantage. I don't believe so much in pressure votes, so that selfvote doesn't matter as much to me, and if you are here before the end of the day with reads, I'm happy too. But in the meantime, I'd like you to discuss, to ask questions, to propose strategies, etc. Even if you don't care about them or if you think they are actually false.

[mykonian]

FoS Imaginality, Dana

who wants to add another?

[mykonian]

There is obvious other, but saying the name wouldn't fit with my intensely aggravating play style.

are we seriously going to play the "how can I get Jack to say more and more" game?

you are probably allowed to tell me where in GD I have to search for the earlier mentioned post. A quick search wasn't succesful.

[mykonian]

Then freaking unvote and vote one of them! I'm tired of asking.

Then don't ask--it's an MD debate as to whether it's a good strategy or not. Did you read the article I posted?

I feel like I have a good grip on this game, but things are still developing. I'm very content to watch them develop.

wait, are you mentioning the article from which you posted the abstract here?

[mykonian]

meaning. I definately meant meaning.

[mykonian]

Redcoyote, if you don't up your play significantly, I would vig you as soon as I got the vig.

Seriously: "does it cut it for anyone else"? Why are you looking for confirmation. Further, you observe Dana's play isn't terrific, but you never reason through why it is scummy. You and I know dana is still quite a new player, so what do your observations say? Then, we have your reaction to David, where you are asking towntells. If you have a serious problem with Jack, this would be a good approach, but seen as you haven't made any points against him, what makes you doubt David?

In short, I have serious problems with your vote. It is on dana, it has been on dana forever, and you simply discard anything dana says. You even have the guts to say this:

He revotes me for some reason, calls Stef's case "not too important to current events", calls Jack town. I don't know why he's so afraid to tell us what he really thinks about this game ...

[mykonian]

Then convince me, is that so much to ask? You aren't even trying here.

You and I know dana is still quite a new player, so what do your observations say?

Don't give me this "poor dana" routine. He's a big boy. He can take a little heat. This isn't some technical, political stance I'm holding over his head. This is a fairly basic request I'm making, and instead of heeding it or even questioning it, he votes me.

Compare him to zwet, or empking. Both players aren't really great players. But both are known to be readable, you can tell when they are scum, or when they are town. I won't lynch a bad player, I want to lynch scum. Why is dana scum? I know already one answer to this question: do you too?

[mykonian]

Fine. Now I think about it, you might actually be right, Red. Dana has some problems.

After reading some other games lately (because as you can notice, on this moment I have too much time on my hands), I noticed a player in another game of dana used the "his reads are too confident" argument at the beginning of day 1. Now you may say that this isn't significant, but it is. Dana can't yet know the succes of this argument (as both players aren't yet revealed, the accuser and the accused), so why would he use it here? It might very well be because he doesn't care if its accurate, as long as it is accepted.

Knowing this, iso post 2 of dana looks a lot like an overdefensive post that is mostly aimed at looking like you are scumhunting. Notice also the "do not call this OMGUS" part.

Every post dana has made till now either answers questions, defends him, or is expected. Dana, would you have an explanation for this?

[mykonian]

And I would back up my first few statements by telling you when and where I got lynched as town, but none of them are recently finished. There are some ongoing and some really old ones.

It's ongoing. Which is why I don't understand why you would copy from there if you don't know the accuracy nor the intention of that argument. I thought it was a large normal.

[mykonian]

And you forgot Jack.

Now, lets assume this hypothetical situation. Our hero, called "the ripper", is known to be a reasonable aggressive mafia player. To his delight, he finally was picked as mafia, but realizes soon afterward his now evolved towngame forces his scumgame to adapt too. He has the luck, that half the board he is playing on has probably heard of him experimenting with his playstyle (as his last experiment wasn't too succesful. Experiments are accepted when announced, when the play needed for them might be scummy. Rapid lynching for example.

For an aggressive player, playing scum isn't easy, you expose yourself way too easily, and it is hard to be honest as it. Although as long as you are in the offensive, you are save, but overaggressiveness might also put people on you early.

K, our hero isn't stupid, so he thinks "I've got to lurk,", as he heard that is a viable scum strategy: "but how I'm going to get away with it"?

"Experiments!" (?)

[mykonian]

Interesting, mykonian. I assume from the "ripper" thing, you're talking about Jack. But that's just speculation. I don't really know that you could prove he's scum from those things.

Oh, I very well can. I am absolutely waiting for Jack to give me a reason to lynch him. Like for example if his master plan isn't revealed soon enough or if it wasn't worth waiting for. (because in both cases, he's just lurking, which is not his town meta). The above is a viable explanation how scumjack would come to this plan. Now all I need is for Jack to underperform

[mykonian]

Damn you, Jack. Damn you.

[mykonian]

fun david. I sure hope it isn't disappointing (wouldn't be too good for your ingame health) but with almost 2 pages of post from me, you shouldn't have any trouble.

But do me a favor, and when you present a tell, reason why it makes me scum (as in, "scum would do this, because ..."). It makes both our lives easier, and means that we can done with this earlier (or you are right and we lynch me, or your wrong and it shows much earlier)

[mykonian]

David, I agree fully. Just that you should have enough material to come up with something. The smaller it is, the clearer your point will be.

Pre-view edit: you disappoint me.

[mykonian]

unvote vote dana

for the case I mentioned earlier.

[mykonian]

@Dana: because I want to?

@Jack. If I;m town and David is, I'd rather have David make a very good case about me, which I can then defend in one post and then let people decide if they lynch me or not. If I;m town, my defense should be easy enough, and then we can continue again with the real scum as a target.

[mykonian]

and (5 or 6)+3+(3 or 2) = 9

you didn't count yourself, so there are 11 people you could get a read on. I'm missing 2 players.

[mykonian]

@Jack. If I;m town and David is, I'd rather have David make a very good case about me, which I can then defend in one post and then let people decide if they lynch me or not. If I;m town, my defense should be easy enough, and then we can continue again with the real scum as a target.

What game do you play where arguing (as town) with someone who thinks you are scum easily convinces them? Often they just tunnel. Scum don't mind because all they want to do is trash the argument so that no one else follows it. He had already dropped it so I'm making a broader point. On the whole it's much more likely to be scum friendly.

Now he dropped it (:P) it is mostly me friendly. The easier the opponent makes it to defend against his case, the easier my defence becomes, and the sooner I'm done with it.

Jack, since discussion is grinding to a halt, I wouldn't mind if you restarted it. Waiting won't achieve a lot, I think.

[mykonian]

one reason I can think of why you wouldn't claim miller in a game where you know there is a vig would be because you generally won't make it to day 3. Vigs have a tendency to shoot millers.

anyway, nice protown move. Gives away that scum also have to worry about a cop (or are already worrying about a cop), and that the cop won;t have to investigate you now. Even if you fakeclaimed, he would get a "guilty".

[mykonian]

sorry haschel, can't find that word. What are you trying to say?

[mykonian]

F
i
n
a
l
l
y...

RC, I have been waiting very very long for that post. Now get off dana, who soaks up way too much of your energy, get some real scumhunting going and let go of your slightly careful play.

@scorpion: only once. I did it. It was way worse then this claim, which makes me believe it. If I were the vig, I wouldn't shoot lynchme tonight.

and

unvote

VOTE: stef. Pressure-vote backed up by evidence with the intention of a lynch.

[mykonian]

should have told you I was v/la, but I thought I could stay away for one other day without you noticing... Tomorrow I have time again to play. This whole weekend (friday till monday) was just way too much fun to spend time on the internet.

[mykonian]

Why do you "highly doubt" that? They have the same motivation as they do bussing partners by voting.

It just doesn't seem to make sense to me when they might as well just offer a townie up instead.

They'd do it just for the WIFOM of it. If there is a town motivation to do something, there is a scum motivation to do the same thing (ie. looking town).

In short: you are looking at the players motivations for a certain action. Is he trying to look town, or is he trying to lynch scum. Good players love WIFOM, it is everything in this game.

does anyone want more theory or are we going to lynch stef?

[mykonian]

Damn you, Jack. Damn you.

Seriously. Am I finally convinced for once in my life my first suspect is scum, finally stick to him for a whole day... is this what you do.

maybe I will reread tomorrow. I'll certainly read it.

Btw, I believe the claim that Stef is town. This claim makes no sense in a scum-scum team (mason would be stronger, easier etc. => preferable for scum). The only scenario this makes sense with Jack as scum is Stef being town. Jack would pretty much clear himself with this claim. Sort of a day 1 1-shot cop claim with an inno. (if you are town, I should totally try this role as a fakeclaim sometime)

[mykonian]

The argument that pressure is better added by prods than votes is a weak one imho. Prods can make people post. Votes make people post content.

If they aren't posting, then you aren't gonna get content anyway.
Mykonian, if you believe the claim, why are you still voting Stef?

because I don't yet have any idea who I should vote for. Both my case (+vote) on dana and Jack were mostly of an investigative nature. Only my gutread on Haschel remains, and I don't want to vote on that. Before I'll reread (tonight), I have a few questions for Jack.

seen that you have revealed your role, I am confused by your play. While it would be logical to make this information a starting point for a reasoning that reveals your read on the game, you only vote on a gut-read.

This certainly isn't part of your "experiment", as that was remaining observant and on a certain moment revealing the information you got. What you show now, is that you don't have information (you vote on a gutread with no real base). So, I'd like some real information from you. Did your experiment fail and are you resuming normal play now, or did you actually get something from your experiment. Please post that if you have it.

[mykonian]

NO.

RC, if you are ever going to replace someone in your game for "lurking", while that player did post before he was prodded etc. I'm never going to enter your games. This would be mod involvement. A force replacement should never be used for something like this.

And now as a player, you are odd. We have a vig here. We don't even have to lynch him. If he is lurking, that is classic Jack-scum (just read his previous scumgames). Which is exactly why I'm pressing him for some serious content, that he has been promising.



Now, for my reread. I far from finished it yesterday. Here is what I got till then.

A few observations, assuming Stef is town.

Jack didn't have role information that told him scum had to be with 2

The Stefwagon is going very slow, esspecially with someone very much pushing it (me). Scum obviously didn't massively support it.

Of the people joining the Stefwagon, Haschel seems uncertain.

Hey danakillsu, what do you think of Mykonian's play?

I disagree with your handling of the XScorpion wagon (and this isn't OMGUS; I would have asked these questions regardless of who the first XScorpion voter was), but your clarifications make sense and I don't think you're scummy. I'm particularly intrigued by post 11 and think it's an interesting point. For now, you check out.

Post 80 is also really good.

Unvote, Vote: Stef

I have a meeting with my wedding caterer, so no more from me until later this evening.

Stefs vote on Scorpion was made before these 2 posts. Haschel seems like a player who prefers to see which way the argument will go, before he votes (except he was forced to take a stance earlier then he wanted).

Overall I have a null read on mykonian. I think his confidence in his reads at this point is somewhat scummy, but is balanced out by his good use of logic and his willingness to post a lot of confidence. I think RedCoyote's vote of me is scummy as well. Just because I didn't have time to post when everyone else did doesn't make me scum. And yes, I am almost always an easy lynch.

unvote vote: RedCoyote

Don't you dare call that blatant OMGUS. It's the scummiest vote so far

And this is acknowledging the case but definately staying off the Stef wagon. This with the preemptive defense against an OMGUS argument against him makes this quite a scummy vote.

In a way, this can be said for Scorpions vote on Jack. It is useless. However, assuming that Stef is town, the move off the Stef wagon would be weird. Which means, however useless you were, scorp, you are town.

[mykonian]

imaginality asked for a replacement.

Are you talking about Jack? Well, yeah, it would be nice to have someone who actually spoke to us. I don't want the Mod to force replace Jack; I want Jack to excuse himself. Hence, he needs to play or get out.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Mod. In case you have trouble finding replacements, maybe this advice will help. Find in finished games, MD, GD etc. if there are players that would enjoy playing with us, or would enjoy the kind of game we have. If you find such a player, pm him, show him the game and explain why he might like to play in it. With decent research, it shouldn't take more then 3 pm's to find someone

And this is acknowledging the case but definately staying off the Stef wagon. This with the preemptive defense against an OMGUS argument against him makes this quite a scummy vote.

What does your quoted post have to do with the Stef wagon? And why does simply saying that my vote wasn't just OMGUS make it a scummy vote?

I really have to spell it out to you right?

"Overall I have a null read on mykonian. I think his confidence in his reads at this point is somewhat scummy, but is balanced out by his good use of logic and his willingness to post a lot of confidence." This shows you read what I posted (on Stef), but choose to do nothing about it.

Then, being so cautious and aware of how you are seen that you preemptively defend against an OMGUS accusation is scummy. Town would
a. make a case good enough so he doesn't have to worry about how the vote is seen
b. won't worry regardless about how his vote is seen as long as he believes it is on scum.

~Thanks for the advice, hopefully I can get a replacement in here soon.

[mykonian]

xscorp: I know Stef is no longer in danger. With that knowledge, I'd rather take the time in stead of hastily voting someone without doing the necesary research. And you saw how much I advanced with my reread... I could just as easily unvote, but it really doesn't matter.

[mykonian]

EBWOP:

Sometimes it's best to just set aside your suspect for a few days and let the game develop, it seems that way to me anyway.

This quote is hilarious after the White Flag Mafia fiasco.

I was in no such game.

Alright, here's the deal. Jack and I were recently in a game called White Flag Mafia with Red Coyote and Drmyshottyiszik. In this game we started a bandwagon on drmyshottyiszik, that ultimately resulted in his lynch. Redcoyote was an unrecruited best friend with drmyshottyiszik and post game we talked about how if redcoyote had claimed earlier then we might have avoided two mislynches.

Now we have a game - the game ONE RIGHT AFTER White Flag - where we have THE EXACT SAME CLAIM in similar circumstances (i.e. the first major bandwagon just happens to be confirmed town by somebody else and Redcoyote doesn't think it's worth commenting on. I find this bizarre. I'm not saying that Jack is not a unrecruited neighbor but I do think it is mindboggling that redcoyote doesn't find this odd at all. Stef and dana have been incredibily scummy this game, so when somebody says something that cleared one of my two major suspects I'm going to like to see if the story makes sense. Jacks story is not impossible. But is it improbable? I think so.

I understand mykonians point about "moh" there is "beyr ew" that result in a scum Stef even if Jack is lying, but I think there is a possibility that Jack assumes that Redcoyote and I will be cautioned when confronted with the unrecruited neighbor claim, so I'm not quite sure what to think. My gut says that Jack is lying, but I'm not sure. His playstyle this game is rapidly becoming unJacklike, and I want to press Redcoyote to see what he thinks.

In the meantime I am not unvoting Ste; "zslghoui" mykonian raises a valid point I think. I think white flag mafia makes things not neatly cut and dined (?)

Anyway, seen this, a Jack fakeclaim as such a role is more likely (he might have gotten the idea then, or sought for a fakeclaim and remembered the role from the previous game). This with Jacks lurking as explaned in my previous post and knowing that that is Jacks preferred scumplay:

vote Jack

Further, I won't deny that this is OMGUS. I indeed find his vote on me a bad one, and I do think Jack's play sucks. For the people who do want to vote me, the scumtell I have committed till now is this (in stead of Jack's gut). I have had only 1 serious target. As scum, this would mean I would only need to make one fake case etc. However, Jack posts that it is gut, then comes with meta with no explanation or accusation.

[mykonian]

If Jack is scum, Dana is too. Jack is

definately

not following his town meta (be this by choice or not). DP seems normal enough, but I suspect he is only used in the above post to defend Jack. This meta defense is based on nothing, and dana-town has barely a reason to defend.

Talking about meta: this is not Dana town. I've been thinking about it long, and it should be said. One thing that is very much part of Dana's townplay, as I see it, is reactionary play. It's bad, but it is dana. Dana is surprisingly concious of how he is seen here in this game, and is ... calmer. I think that is the right word. More concrete, I haven't seen Dana react on a starting wagon (Jacks, starting from Haschel's post) with such dismissal. That he doesn't have good reasons for it seals the deal for me.

[mykonian]

almost. Jack called me scum because of "gut" reasons, and didn't offer any reads on other players. This together with the quotes below makes me think Jack sucks, which perfectly allows me to OMGUS him. (you can't OMGUS properly if the other person doesn't suck)

I feel like keeping my cards close to my chest for a while, experimental thing.

@dana: has red done anything else scummy?

...

In other news, I have town reads on 5 (maybe 6) players and scum reads on 3. Feeling very good about 2 of the scum. Still 2 or 3 people I'm unsure about though.

When I feel I have a good enough lock on the third scum I will post my reads, and choose a town seeming player (if there is one interested) to debate them with. If anyone disagrees with this strategy they can explain why the conclusions about attitude polarization that the researchers came up with are incorrect :smug:

I apologize, I was very into this game for a while but various things have drawn my interest elsewhere. It appears I will be lobbing my opinion in from the sidelines rather than making substantial cases like I intended.

Claim: Unrequited best friend

Like a one-way mason. I know that Stef is innocent but he knows nothing about me. A wagon on him was ideal from my perspective as it allows a much better read of the game.

vote:mykonian

Useless and unpersuasive gut scum read, etc.

Antihero is another of my picks for scum.

I had concerns about jelly but the miller claim seems to have softened those.

I know that xscorpion was my third scum pick, but unfortunately I don't remember why I had a scum read on him and a town read on dana a few days ago, I will stick with that though.

What cards did he keep to his chest? With all his observation, he basically bought himself an excuse to play his scumgame, which consists of lurking. (there are some links to Jacks games somewhere in this thread). And with Haschel's post about Jack's previous game, his claim suddenly becomes more suspect (as it is a conveniant claim, if you think it through). Jack breadcrumbed his role quite a bit during early game, but he doesn't claim it (it is for us to find). Breadcrumbs don't really matter if scum was planning to use such a claim on day 1.

and to remind you:

I have very good reason to believe there are only two scum...gives us a bit more leeway.

He has claimed. Nothing about his role implies 2 scum. Why did Jack say this?




So yeah, the post where he votes me (and claims, and provides little information for being that far in the game) was indeed a turning point. I have long pressed Jack to provide us with info, and only the assumption that it would come made that I didn't suspect him.

[mykonian]

Mod

, may I asked who, if anyone, helped you (review/co-create) the setup?

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 5#p2358945

If Jack is scum, Dana is too. Jack is

definately

not following his town meta (be this by choice or not). DP seems normal enough, but I suspect he is only used in the above post to defend Jack. This meta defense is based on nothing, and dana-town has barely a reason to defend.

Talking about meta: this is not Dana town. I've been thinking about it long, and it should be said. One thing that is very much part of Dana's townplay, as I see it, is reactionary play. It's bad, but it is dana. Dana is surprisingly concious of how he is seen here in this game, and is ... calmer. I think that is the right word. More concrete, I haven't seen Dana react on a starting wagon (Jacks, starting from Haschel's post) with such dismissal. That he doesn't have good reasons for it seals the deal for me.

I don't get this post at all. It doesn't make you scum, but I just don't get it. If you've been thinking about it long, why didn't you say something before now? RC is very much accusing me of being reactionary in this game. What do you say to that? What about being calmer makes me scum? For that matter, how does being conscious of how I might be seen make me scum?
I just really don't think anything here is good enough to base much of anything on.

ok, early game you lurked, as far as I could see. I couldn't get a real read on you, so I thought: "lets make a badly reasoned vote on Dana". There was barely a reaction. However, as this was only one read, together with your lurking, it didn't really become something solid. Until you defended Jack without reason when there is a serious chance (with Haschels post) that Jack is going to be our lynch.

For the rest, if you want theory discussion, I can give it, but I'm not going to do it now, as it makes this post even more unreadable.

I think we're on to something here.

Unvote
Vote: mykonian

Your case (seen your last post) is that I placed an OMGUS vote. I have explaned why Jack sucks (and why his claim does too).

So, I'd like one of two things from you:

A. Show me where my points against Jack are wrong and why Jack doesn't suck.
B. Make a case on me that isn't based on that OMGUS vote by me.

[mykonian]

So, I'd like one of two things from you:

A. Show me where my points against Jack are wrong and why Jack doesn't suck.
B. Make a case on me that isn't based on that OMGUS vote by me.

No. I'm not letting you manipulate me. You want to twist what you've done to make it look better, but in the end you have shown that your "reads" on people are purely tactical. You thought Jack was awesome earlier when he was agreeing with you, but the moment he started thinking you might be scum you decide that he is no longer obv-town and start calling him scum. You need lynching I think.

No. You don't understand this game. If you think I'm scum, get arguments and manipulate the rest. You aren't doing so. Even more, you aren't reading other players posts. Both I and Haschel have made good posts about Jack and... Jack hasn't defended.

Jack has never agreed with my Stef case. Since I have been on Stef all game long, Jack has never agreed with me. Nice try, silly boy. Get your facts straight before you try to be aggressive.

[mykonian]

Oh ya, so you didn't say:

jack is town.

? I think you can take your condescension and pedantic "preaching" and shove it. I've got a fine grasp on the game, and I've read everyone's posts

That quote is the

12th post in the game!

I'd think that my reads then aren't that accurate, and further, that in the next

16 pages

I might have a reason to change them. Esspecially if I posted that reasons. You don't even have a case. And if you quote from the 12th post in the game, you seriously have no fine grasp of the game.

[mykonian]

So, can someone clear up the whole game issue that jack is saying he wasn't in and Haschel is saying he was in where Jack had the same role?

Figurative speach. Jack doesn't really want to be reminded about that game, as his strategy (as town) lost the game for his whole team. Now, same to you as to Lynchme, get some scumhunting going. You have been asking a simple question, which some reading (search "white flag mafia" for example) would have answered. Stop your lurking.

[mykonian]

You don't even have a case.

don't panic too much. Phate. It takes quite some time to get me lynched here. As long as I can keep CSL satisfied with bandwagons to hop on, fishy doesn't get replaced, I should be fine. There are a lot of people putting me in their lists, but the reason that there hasn't been a serious wagon against me the last day, is because there is simply no case.

Not applicable here. Fishy pronounced I was town there, and CSL proved to be an extra vote now and then. Noone follows me here, or has pronounced I'm certain town.

[mykonian]

Not applicable here. Fishy pronounced I was town there, and CSL proved to be an extra vote now and then. Noone follows me here, or has pronounced I'm certain town.

What is not applicable? I was referencing the smirking-scum "there is no case" tone, which is the same. It's one part of your play, and fits with the theme. I recognize your style very well. It's a big red flag, one of the most underrated (or unknown) scumtells.

Nah, I use that when I believe a person actually doesn't have a case. This is part of both my scumplay and my townplay. As scum I'm usually perfectly aware that a case could be made, and it is usually used when the player in question has made an incorrect case or votes without good reasons. As town it usually shows annoyance about a vote without reason.

In this case, Lynchme says I OMGUS vote. I think the only towngame I have read of you was teleportation mafia. And there you really created, made the game about you, now and then. Here you choose to stay on the sidelines. Meaning it isn't a "tactical vote" (which would be horrible as scum in this case, btw). Lynchme's quote from

the 12th post in the game

where I said you were town, to prove some inconsistency is laughable.

He doesn't have a case. So either he makes one, or he admits he sucks. He won't do the last, so I want my case.

[mykonian]

Jack this game:
Posts: 42/391 = 10.74%

Jack as lurking scum (vanillaside):
Posts:17/749 = 2.27%

This game is slow. Further, post counts don't matter that much: what did you type?

I'm the first person you make a case on, with arguments. It is page 16. That counts.

[mykonian]

IMO david is just annoying. The difference with Jack is that I don't have a reference.

The only point that I really have against david is what MoI explained again. He could just have searched, but in stead does nothing and asks a question for 2 or 3 days. That was lurking (and not even intelligent lurking).

[mykonian]

...

I don't like you claiming yourself that this is your town meta. But I still find myko scummier.

Uhm, why? I can't find it in thread.

[mykonian]

Those lists are mostly all separate things, each in their own context. Although your private scumtells are off, you are perceptive about one thing. I kind of dreaded having to make a new post in this game. I'm not particularly liking where this game is going (at no fault to the Mod or the game itself), and it has withdrawn me somewhat. dana's posts depress me in a way, because he's made himself completely unreadable to, not just me, but the whole game. XScorp, Antihero, David, and you (prior to this recent surge) are kind of just trying to get by with as little involvement in the game as possible. The doc/imaginality has literally given us nothing to work with. That's half the game right there. That's not even including Stef, HC, and MoI who all just kind of come in spurts.

QFT.

On the other hand, tomorrow we have enough to discuss, and we probably lost someone of the lurkers (subtely directing the vig ). Just hang in, stay with the game, and tomorrow could be very interesting.

[mykonian]

please request replacement.

[mykonian]

@antihero

no, because you assume Jack is fakeclaiming to vote Stef. If Jack is fakeclaiming, he is scum. But he still might say the truth about Stef.

Further, your post is too obviously a "damn I got prodded but I'm not really playing the game anymore"-post. Another player would do better at your spot, and the mod has quite an easier job to find a replacement if he can advertise it like: "It is still day 1!". Don't drag this out.

[mykonian]

Antihero. You have no idea what is going on in this game.

Jack claimed an inno on Stef. Just look it up. Now, start doing some real work.

[mykonian]

David. I'll hammer in a few hours. Claim please.

[mykonian]

I can't find your claim in the above post. Make yourself usefull for a time.

[mykonian]

oh, damn. I'll have to go in an hour. And I don't feel like waiting for the night. You have an hour to think up your fakeclaim

[mykonian]

I don't care about justification. I don't see any other lynch happening with the deadline coming and I don't feel like dragging the game out.

15 minutes.

[mykonian]

thank you David. You can't imagine how happy you make me.

Vote DavidParker

[mykonian]

That combo of "oh hey look I just decided to do an ISO, l-1" and myk being in a terrible hurry to hammer is just so bad. There was lots of stuff happening in this game.

The actual answer depends on only 1 person and doesn't have to assume daytalking.

[mykonian]

agreed. Stef was "supposed" to be a confirmed towny. But he wasn't shot.

Plus the extensive case already on him:

vote Stef

and if I get the vig, I'll pump your dead body full with lead, Jack.

[mykonian]

GUYS.

I have been the motor behind the stef wagon all day long. I have made cases on him, called him out, etc. When Jack claimed, I was surprised how I could have been so wrong.

Now when Stef isn't "confirmed" anymore, I think his lynch would benefit us.

[mykonian]

He's using nothing but mod wifom (scum couldn't possibly get two night kills because that would be unblanced) to state that any person who has been the vig is a townie.
1. Most Mini games are unbalanced and biased towards scum, even after they are reviewed.
2. You don't know the rest of the PRs in the game.
3. You have no way of knowing if the Vig role hasn't been assigned completely random for today.

By what the mod is telling us the vig can be scum as well as town because he repeatedly used the word "player". By what mykonian is telling us,

tomorrow, the first thing this "vig" must do, is claim that he was the vig the first day. He is from then on a confirmed townie.

Therefore my problem with what he's saying. He is outguessing the mod and using that guess to call the D1 vig a confirmed townie.

Preview edit:
I've read what you are saying. You are still wrong for the reasons above.

So you assume that the mod would let his mechanic being ruined by accidentaly giving it to scum (who would then pass it on between them)

In stead of letting town have it at first and see if they could pass it on between them or if scum would look town enough?

omgus vote Stef

You are assuming a totally unbalanced setup and a possibly pointless mechanic from Kunkstar and his reviewer (who both aren't stupid), just to justify your vote on me. You are the scum here.

Posting all Stef's posts till his scorpion vote.

Hello! Nice to be playing with some people I've played with before.

Vote David Parker

for being the first to post.

2. if scum would get the Vig ability, they would pass it around the team, thereby creating a second mafia kill. The mechanic would be useless, and almost never 2 mafia kills are balanced in a mini, so the current Vig is a townie.

tomorrow, the first thing this "vig" must do, is claim that he was the vig the first day. He is from then on a confirmed townie

.
3.

[*]

A clarification of Action Resolution:

The passing of the Vigilante ability onto another player occurs last in the series. Therefore, a kill targeted at the owner of the ability on night start will successfully eliminate the ability.

2. Hmmm...

Following the use of the Vigilante ability (or lack thereof), the current holder must select

a player

to pass the ability on to.

The ability will then move on to the selected player for their use.

The Vigilante Ability stacks with any ability you may have in your original Role PM.

What you are saying could look like you are trying to set-up false townie confirmations. Just saying.

Unvote Parker, Vote mykonian

Scorp get's just a fos for now but we got bigger fish to fry right now.

No reasons for the FoS. This was post 35.

He's using nothing but mod wifom (scum couldn't possibly get two night kills because that would be unblanced) to state that any person who has been the vig is a townie.
1. Most Mini games are unbalanced and biased towards scum, even after they are reviewed.
2. You don't know the rest of the PRs in the game.
3. You have no way of knowing if the Vig role hasn't been assigned completely random for today.

By what the mod is telling us the vig can be scum as well as town because he repeatedly used the word "player". By what mykonian is telling us,

tomorrow, the first thing this "vig" must do, is claim that he was the vig the first day. He is from then on a confirmed townie.

Therefore my problem with what he's saying. He is outguessing the mod and using that guess to call the D1 vig a confirmed townie.

Preview edit:
I've read what you are saying. You are still wrong for the reasons above.

Hmm... I was wrong. Scum having the vig ability would mean they could just pass it on among themselves and thus completely breaking the game. Mykonian is therefore probably right and not scummy for that post.

Unvote, Vote Scorp

And his vote. Still no reasons why Scorp is scum. This was post 46

On the other hand, I would totally not mind a LynchMePls lynch, after this part of his case made against me yesterday. He used a part of a post that was right in the middle of the RVS to argue that I was opportunistic in the end of day 1.

Oh ya, so you didn't say:

jack is town.

? I think you can take your condescension and pedantic "preaching" and shove it. I've got a fine grasp on the game, and I've read everyone's posts

That quote is the

12th post in the game!

I'd think that my reads then aren't that accurate, and further, that in the next

16 pages

I might have a reason to change them. Esspecially if I posted that reasons. You don't even have a case. And if you quote from the 12th post in the game, you seriously have no fine grasp of the game.

As a conclusion: although we lost three towny's, I can't say I'm too unhappy. I had the feeling that Haschel was scum, although I couldn't find out why, and the other two were a distraction too. From my point of view, we lost three potential targets for a mislynch.

[mykonian]

don't answer this if you think it is a bad idea, but:

RC, did you pass on the vig ability to Haschel?


Before you answer, think: scum might very well try to hunt the vig tonight.
wifom about if the role still exists might benefit the town (though I'm of the opinion that it is better to know it).

[mykonian]

What part of my reasoning for my Stef vote is awful?

[mykonian]

great. Provide that backing (or did you mean dana's vote?)

[mykonian]

0 times.
n/a
c) "if I modded a game, he wouldn't be allowed to /in" with the note: "I would like mods to know it is allowed to keep certain players out of your game. It is esspecially helpful if such an action would improve the overall fun for the rest of the players, something a mod should always be concerned about"

maybe I should put that note in my sig. If I could make it shorter.

[mykonian]

ok, anyway.

3 scum, 9 players. Worst case scenario: we mislynch, vig shoots a townie. game over. On this moment, we have RC as likely town. His claim makes sense, and unless there is a counterclaim, I'm going to assume RC to be confirmed town. As of this moment:

Town:

RC
Xscorp
MoI

Scum

Stef (early half d1 case, then lurked out)
Lynchme (terrible end d1 case on me)

Neutral - scum

dr
dana

Please get (force)replaced:

antihero

[mykonian]

3 scum, 9 players.

Wait when did we find this out?
Jack is town, and he may be right when he said there are only 2 scum.

he said it at the start of day 1. He was a VT. The only thing he knew about the game was that there was a vig that didn't have to be town all the time. He "deduced" from this that the balance of the game would depend on numbers: 2-10 is a known mountainous setup, which shouldn't be affected too much by the random vig.

However, with a miller claim, we either know that there is a cop (if LMP is town) and the mod needed to weaken the cop someway, or scum fears a cop for some reason (if LMP is scum). A godfather would be such an indication for scum. With this knowledge, we know that town supposedly has some power that needed weakening... meaning we are probably not facing two scum.

but if we are, we are just lucky, and our job is easier.

Oh, and mykonian, you can stop with the whole replacement thing.

I hope you don't say this too easily. I can confidently say that I was more annoyed with how you treated this game then how annoyed you are at my insistence that you should be replaced.

[mykonian]

@RC.

A clarification of Action Resolution: The passing of the Vigilante ability onto another player occurs last in the series. Therefore, a kill targeted at the owner of the ability on night start will successfully eliminate the ability.

this answers one question.

I asked this to check if there is still a pro-town role that might kill useless townies.

@Dana. RC's play has been protown, his kill was protown (Jack would otherwise have been a perfect mislynch target). Enough for me to assume based on his claim that he is town. I don't care what you do with the information you get, but I try to deduce something from it.

What part of my reasoning for my Stef vote is awful?

You claimed my vote was awful. I'd like to know why. Stef was the leading bandwagon yesterday

for a reason

, until Jack fakeclaimed. After that, Stef lurked out. In this game, time doesn't heal.

[mykonian]

Scum
Lynchme (terrible end d1 case on me)

1) I do not concede it was terrible.
2) Town can't make bad cases? What about it in particular was scummy?

You used a statement made in the RVS to prove that I was inconsistent at the end of day 1 !

That's not just a bad case. That is quoting out of context (you

knew

you took that statement from the first page), and by that forging a reason for your vote. There is nothing to

concede

.

Interesting how mykonian suddenly thinks Jack's play isn't Jack-town, but earlier in the thread he seemed to like Jack's play fine. The only thing I see different is that Jack is now calling mykonian scum.

So, I'd like one of two things from you:

A. Show me where my points against Jack are wrong and why Jack doesn't suck.
B. Make a case on me that isn't based on that OMGUS vote by me.

No. I'm not letting you manipulate me. You want to twist what you've done to make it look better, but in the end you have shown that your "reads" on people are purely tactical. You thought Jack was awesome earlier when he was agreeing with you, but the moment he started thinking you might be scum you decide that he is no longer obv-town and start calling him scum. You need lynching I think.

Oh ya, so you didn't say:

jack is town.

? I think you can take your condescension and pedantic "preaching" and shove it. I've got a fine grasp on the game, and I've read everyone's posts

The first post was a terrible vote, so I asked for his reasons. By saying that "he didn't want to be manipulated" he avoided to give his reasons. The last quote shows a quote from me, where I say that Jack is town. This was made halfway page 1, so at the start of the random voting stage. During the rest of the day, I have more then once posted that Jack would get my vote if he kept lurking and kept doing nothing, but LMP carefully avoids that evidence and only chooses to quote a "read" from me from the RVS.

Why? Because LMP doesn't care about the truth. He cares about his vote getting some backing, be that a good one or not.

unvote vote LMP

. Stef can come and defend himself later. Lets get some action here.

[mykonian]

Scum
Lynchme (terrible end d1 case on me)

1) I do not concede it was terrible.
2) Town can't make bad cases? What about it in particular was scummy?

You used a statement made in the RVS to prove that I was inconsistent at the end of day 1 !

That's not just a bad case. That is quoting out of context (you

knew

you took that statement from the first page), and by that forging a reason for your vote. There is nothing to

concede

.

Interesting how mykonian suddenly thinks Jack's play isn't Jack-town, but earlier in the thread he seemed to like Jack's play fine. The only thing I see different is that Jack is now calling mykonian scum.

So, I'd like one of two things from you:

A. Show me where my points against Jack are wrong and why Jack doesn't suck.
B. Make a case on me that isn't based on that OMGUS vote by me.

No. I'm not letting you manipulate me. You want to twist what you've done to make it look better, but in the end you have shown that your "reads" on people are purely tactical. You thought Jack was awesome earlier when he was agreeing with you, but the moment he started thinking you might be scum you decide that he is no longer obv-town and start calling him scum. You need lynching I think.

Oh ya, so you didn't say:

jack is town.

? I think you can take your condescension and pedantic "preaching" and shove it. I've got a fine grasp on the game, and I've read everyone's posts

The first post was a terrible vote, so I asked for his reasons. By saying that "he didn't want to be manipulated" he avoided to give his reasons. The last quote shows a quote from me, where I say that Jack is town. This was made halfway page 1, so at the start of the random voting stage. During the rest of the day, I have more then once posted that Jack would get my vote if he kept lurking and kept doing nothing, but LMP carefully avoids that evidence and only chooses to quote a "read" from me from the RVS.

Why? Because LMP doesn't care about the truth. He cares about his vote getting some backing, be that a good one or not.

unvote vote LMP

. Stef can come and defend himself later. Lets get some action here.

(and that is what I get for not previewing my posts :/)

[mykonian]

I'm impressed. (bump for MoI)

[mykonian]

The difference between Antihero and shotty/davidparker was that Antihero thought he could get away with not reading the thread yet posting in it (somehow he completely missed Jack's claim and then went on to make a case on Stef). I find that insulting. The two you name actually stay with the game, and interact with it. They are, no matter how badly, playing the game. If someone isn't, like antihero, I'd rather see them replaced

And MoI, you have been suspecting LMP for meta reasons for some time now. I've heard today that LMP can be quite good as town. He clearly isn't here. I believe you are town, and have good itentions, and the addition of the above points against him, I think a LMP wagon might very well a succesful one. I would ask you not to hesitate, and join the LMP wagon.

[mykonian]

Alright. Any counterclaim to RC's shooting of Jack?

vote: mykonian

The Stef vote is awful and his last post looks like scum rolefishing.

Why was my Stef vote awful.

dana, for once, don't avoid this question and answer.

[mykonian]

That's called a read. townread=/=confirmed town. You cannot use that to prove he is town. It's just you saying his play and shot were pro-town.

Do you have any reason to suspect RC?

no? Then the previous posts by you were just that I used the wrong word. And they were a waste of time, because unless you think I and RC are scum together, you weren't scumhunting.

[mykonian]

2) The extensive case already on him. If there is a case, it's not yours. The only case you ever made on him was on his FIRST FOUR POSTS.

I have no idea why you think that an old case is bad (given that there has been no new information about Stef)

It was well outside of the RVS. The points made against him were good. He lurked out after Jack "confirmed" him. Aaaaand antihero is still adding points to the case about Stef's inability to scumhunt.

So, I assume you have a good reason to think Stef is town. Because my case, though old, is still a good one. Nothing changed that.

[mykonian]

I think it's valid for him to be suspicious of mykonian feeling like he has to fall back on that.

Thank you. A scummy post at the start is just as important as one that is late. Do you want a theory discussion about that?

[mykonian]

assume a planet with only one corporation. If a person on that planet works, they work for that corporation and get their money from that corporation. Everything that is bought is made by that corporation.

How can this corporation make a lasting profit?

obviously. And even if it would be "valid", it certainly doesn't make my vote "awful". It would make it "outdated", or "lazy".

But what my biggest problem is with the people voting me:

first MoI pronounces that he dislikes stef-votes.
then dana posts theory stuff.
following this xscorpion pronounces a dislike of the Stef vote.
then LMP "hates" these votes.

Then, in his second post, dana votes me.
shotty follows (better backing behind it then his initial stef-vote)

Now, I can totally understand that people forgot the Stefcase, and because I didn't add a complete reasoning, people could dislike this vote.

But, at the start of the day, how often does it happen people directly vote because someone else voted with little reason? Barely.

We can see this reaction in MoI's and scorpions response. They dislike the vote, but choose to wait what happens, at least not to act on it immediately. MoI esspecially focuses too much on Jack dying in stead of the initial case. Scorpion is clearly put off by the quick start of my vote. I already have a townread on them, and their reasonings behind the dislike of the vote are calm and tell exactly what their problem is.

Then, we have the third: Lynchme:

I hate those votes. Absolutely terrible.

@MoI: I dunno what to tell you, I'm town aligned miller. ISO away.

First: away with the subtelity of the previous (towny) players! No reasoning, nothing. (and then followed with a sentence which only tells that he is "town alligned")

Here I posted what my reasons were, so no more misreads like MoI's, or xscorpion (since my vote is clearly not an impuls)

vote: mykonian

The Stef vote is awful and his last post looks like scum rolefishing.

No reasoning, while being after the explanation of my vote, and while he didn't vote me in his first post.

The only other thing that changed? The fact that other people stated that the vote on stef by me and docshotty were horrible

You see my problem now? Dana needed support from others for his vote, which was badly reasoned. When asked for his reasons, after asking

three!

times, he finally asks:

1) He was supposed to be confirmed townie but wasn't NK'd. This is nothing but WIFOM.
2) The extensive case already on him. If there is a case, it's not yours. The only case you ever made on him was on his FIRST FOUR POSTS.

The second reason is clearly an adjustment for the fact that I actually had a case. And as we know

neither the amount of posts it is based on, or the time the case was made

invalidates a case. The fact that Dana needed to adjust to something not voteworthy and that he waited so long to finally give reasons for his vote, means that these weren't reasons.

these were excuses. Dana's vote was scummy.

recommend vig target because I like my vote on LMP: Dana

[mykonian]

Awesome case magna.

[mykonian]

Ok, I was just ISOing MoI, because I can't figure out if he is opportunistic scum or town that genuinely thinks I'm scum, but I saw this quote in his second to last post:

Nobody can be opportunistic if their isn't yet a chance on you. MoI leads your wagon. This is terrible.

First off, look at my town record. Its pretty bad. I've had a couple of good town games, but I've had some really bad ones too. I can scum hunt bad scum, but I'm pretty bad at finding scum that are even half-way decent players. I'm flawless as scum so far, I've never even been lynched. Where did you "hear today" that I was "quite good" as town.

Scummies thread.

I think mykonian needs to be lynched. I'd like to point out Jack's observations from mykonian's scum chat in another game. mykonian is quite good at taking apart cases on him, and I've seen that tactic deployed successfully. I'll grant that if I was playing better I would have made a better case yesterday, and the "I won't let you manipulate me" is not the best town statement ever, but my gut tells me mykonian is scum, and I didn't want to get into a word game with him.

OMGUS. Mykonian has never been good at taking apart cases. Mykonian usually gets lynched for cases that aren't true.

Saying that somebody needs to be lynched because he would tear apart your terribly weak cases is horrible

.

Lastly, why is he so eager to get MoI onboard with him? I've never seen a more blatantly scummy buddying up in my life.

Because I want to see you lynched, scum.

Just understand this. LMP hasn't defended against

any

of the key points of his case.

His quoting out of context (using a RVS statement to prove I was inconsistent)

I dunno, but hopping right back to RC without any scum hunting inbetween seems like a pretty poor choice.

I think this quote is telling. Read his ISO to this point. He really hasn’t scum-hunted at all. His initial vote is for Stef based on his initial read in. Does not pursue Stef with questions or observations. Mixes it up with dana pretty much solely on how he answered a theoretical question from HC. When Stef is ‘cleared’ immediately jumps to dana and delivers the above stinger.

Interesting how mykonian suddenly thinks Jack's play isn't Jack-town, but earlier in the thread he seemed to like Jack's play fine. The only thing I see different is that Jack is now calling mykonian scum.

Now, his reason for this is simply untrue, if he has to quote a post in the RVS to prove that I thought Jack was town.

Then we have his post at the start of this day where he "bandwagons". After MoI and Xscorpion stating a dislike for the stef votes, LMP absolutely hates them.

But doesn't act on it at all. He's going with the flow.

[mykonian]

Scum
Lynchme (terrible end d1 case on me)

1) I do not concede it was terrible.
2) Town can't make bad cases? What about it in particular was scummy?

I also want you to remember this post. What would a townie do if his case was called terrible?

He would check the reasons and then either argue why his case was ok, or give in and agree. He would then start with some new scumhunting.

What would scum do?

Scum would try to survive. Avoid that the person actually proves that the case is terrible and makes him look bad.

Lynchme takes the second approach two times in this quote. First he "doesn't concede that it was terrible". But doesn't react on the point against it. It's meaningless. Second, even if it was a bad case (so he doesn't really believe his first statement), he isn't to blame! Because townies can make bad cases too, right!? Classic scum. LMP tries to avoid accountability for what he did.


And then, I miss the scumhunting. Actually, LMP waits with voting untill he gets under some pressure, and then votes the player who's attacking him that had already the most votes.

[mykonian]

Antihero, we'll get stef later, I think. I won't support you until LMP is lynched. So unless you think you can get enough other players on the Stef wagon, I think you need to do further scumhunting to come with something new that might pull players to you.

Red: if you had to give a read of me now, would it be town, almost town, meh, almost scum, or scum?

[mykonian]

BUMP

[mykonian]

I think it's pretty much guaranteed from their interactions that one, but not both, of mykonian and LMP is scum.

Lol, ok. It is quite clear that I'm not scum with LMP. However, I have made such cases about more players.

I'm not scum with stef.
I'm not scum with dana.

BUUUUT this time Dana chooses to make such a post. While I just made a case against him, he tries to make certain that only the myko and the LMP wagon are the ones that could go for a lynch. (this is the "that one is scum part". Such reads don't exist. There are no tells for it).

[mykonian]

Magna has a great case on LMP.

You have a case on me that boils down to: he voted stef on a case that was based on 4 posts and was old.

I think you have the wrong guy

[mykonian]

tell me. Why did you quote from the first page of the game to prove your point?

Even as scum this is stupid.

[mykonian]

it was the 12th post. You can't expect a lot of accuracy, and in half a day, my opinions can change (which was quite evident they did as I made at least 2 posts where I threatened to vote Jack if he didn't come with something good)

I found the case to be unnatural. By which I mean: not made because you thought those parts scummy (the alarmbells rang after Jack voted me and I voted Jack. You tried to justify it by this)

[mykonian]

OMGUS is the wrong word.

too towny fallacy comes close.

[mykonian]

unvote

reread time. We are at mylo after all.

[mykonian]

I've seen antihero use some fallacies, but I wasn't aware I had used some too (obviously). Would you mind pointing out where I'm going wrong?

[mykonian]

I forgot to say that I was on V/LA.

I'm back now

[mykonian]

reread time. We are at mylo after all.

This makes little sense to me. If the case on LMP was ‘great’ as you stated then regardless of whether we are MYLO a lynch on scum is a good move. That you back off with such weak reasoning is bad.

Lets reason that through. Why would someone who is convinced that LMP is scum unvote at such a time? Because something made him doubt his read. So, I want a reread.

And Town has NO IDEA if we are in MYLO. We don’t know if we are in a 3 or 2 scum scenario. The more I process the set-up the more inclinded I am to think this is a modified Mountainous scenario, which would make 2-10 the logical set-up. We are only in MYLO under the following scenario –

1. We don’t lynch scum.
2. The Vig kill tonight hits Town
3. We have a 3 scum team.

I don’t see any reason to not approach the day as if it is MYLO but stating outright we are in that scenario is overstating the matter.

better be save then sorry: I'm going to assume we are in mylo.

[mykonian]

:: VoteCount 2x4 ::

Antihero (2) -

Stef, RedCoyote

MagnaofIllusion (0) -

RedCoyote (0) -

danakillsu (1) -

LynchMePls

LynchMePls (1) -

MagnaofIllusion

XScorpion (0) -

Stef (1) -

Antihero

drmyshottyizsik (1) -

Xscorpion

mykonian (2) -

danakillsu, drmyshottyizsik

Not Voting (1) -

mykonian

With 9 Alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Yeehaa, myk's reread conclusion. Thinking about RC being scum should be done tomorrow: Magna, you are wasting your time there.

I got confused by a distancing vote by Lynchme. On the moment LMP gets under serious pressure, he votes dana (well). The fact that he suddenly comes with a case on dana when he gets under pressure should have rang the alarm with me, but it didn't.

vote LMP

. You are right magna: LMP should be lynched now. Dana is next.

[mykonian]

no, but that was the only part that didn't make sense in your whole play. You have been quite consistent a bad townie, except then.

and Lynchme, that was exactly the scenario I found about RC-scum. I would rather not have had it public, as it sets us up for night-wifom. Scum might accidentaly hit the vig, RC-scum might shoot someone else to set us on a wrong track etc. But in any case:

we shouldn't lynch RC today

.

[mykonian]

@mykonian: RC, town or scum?

If I had to pick now: town.

[mykonian]

Active lurking?

I replaced in today.

Vote: DMSIS

shotty is a fool, CSL. With a little luck he is shot tonight. First we have to lynch scum, in the person of LMP.

Or do you think he is town?

[mykonian]

a mountainous setup contains no (working) powerroles.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 8#p2528428

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p2528490

I haven't seen a case better then these two. Make a better case or change your vote.

(in my dana case, disregard the first 3 lines. Apperanly, they were still in my notepad then, and I didn't preview it.)

[mykonian]

unvote

now that this is out, RC, can you confirm this?

now that this is further all in the open, and we can settle on a dana lynch, who are we going to vig? At least LMP and RC should talk about this.

[mykonian]

unvote

now that this is out, RC, can you confirm this?

now that this is further all in the open, and we can settle on a dana lynch, who are we going to vig? At least LMP and RC should talk about this.

This post makes my skin crawl. Particularly the "now that this is out". Further makes me wonder if the scum team is RC/mykonian.

Lol, no this isn't a scumslip. English is my third language, and in this case I misused a way of saying.

If you want to confirm this for yourself, think this: do I sound like a smart guy? If so, would I in any case accidentaly give away that I knew you were the vig?

[mykonian]

unvote vote Dana

I think Stef/CSL or Shotty should be vigged.

[mykonian]

I doubt that I would be interested in any of the claims except those of Shotty and Dana and Stef. The others are, as far as I can see, in no immediate danger of a lynch or vig kill. I think it would be foolish to let them claim.

[mykonian]

I won't support a massclaim. I have no interest in showing the roles of Magna, Nopoint, RC, etc. I think we won't gather a lot from a massclaim, and claiming the roles of people who aren't going to be lynched anyway is not smart.

@nopoint. I love WIFOM. I think that an experienced player should never deny the information that is available to him. In this case, you know I'm not English, and you know I'm an experienced player. Which means that getting me caught on something very very obvious might very well be accounted to wrong use of the English language, in stead of me being scum. You'll have more succes with standard scumtells on me that language based ones. (and what you mean with WIFOM here, is that I might be scum. Very true, however this point doesn't make it a lot more likely, which is what I was pointing out.)

And I have been directing the vig more this day. My case on dana had the conclusion that he should be vigged after a LMP lynch (as those were my two top choices for scum), now LMP is the vig, and we shouldn't lynch him, the list changes to lynch dana, and vig CSL/Stef or shotty, who are the next on my scumlist. If LMP thinks I make sense, then he'll shoot someone of them, and since I think they are scum, town might benefit.

[mykonian]

I don't know what's worse... if LynchMePls is actually town and the scum kills off our power, or if he's scum and he uses it to kill one of the "acceptable" losses who just happens to be a Townie.

We have to be very specific about this Vig shot, gentlemen.

"Acceptable losses" says it.

I trust you to be town. Please direct LMP and we don't have the problem. Tell him who to vig. If he doesn't, he's scum. Bold your choice, so he can't say he didn't read it.

If scum kills LMP, too bad, we'll have to lynch the next few scum. There really isn't anything we can do about it.

[mykonian]

Carapuce, please vote dana, and if you don't, please tell me why you think your vote should be anywhere else.

[mykonian]

Welcome Carapuce!

RC’s confirmation of the hand-off to LMP puts a new spin on his defense of LMP today. Consider all the pressure of I was applying to him based on his defense nullified by this reveal.

Things we know from the exchange –

LMP and Red can’t be scum together and completely faking the Town hand-off unless Jack or HC was the N1 gunman and Mod did not inform us of this with their deaths. If find this to be an unreasonable option.

LMP and Red can’t be scum together as Red could not have handed the Vig to a partner. Both can be Town but only one can be scum.

I think it makes sense to Mass-Claim if either of Red or LMP are scum and makes some sense if neither are scum.

If LMP is scum and we are not in a Mountainous set-up Town loses tonight if we do not lynch scum today. A mass claim would narrow down some choices that we otherwise might decide to lynch.

If Red is scum then regarding Mass-Claims it seems to me to be advantageous to minimize the chances that LMP hit Town PR tonight with his vig. Again this depends on us not being in a Mountainous setting.

The logic for both holds if both scenarios holds if both are Town. We prevent reduce the chances of a mis-lynch and reduce the chances that LMP his a Town PR at night with his Vig choice.

Based on what I have read I’ll tentatively support a Mass-claim. If we do I suggest typical popcorn procedures with either Shotty, Dana, or Carapuce starting.

I just realized something. I have to confirm with the mod first that it is ok for me to share this information, but if I'm correct, I think we can settle the RC town/scum question.

Results?

Wait a sec. Gotta PM the mod.

Reasons and results?

UNVOTE: LMP until the decision to Mass-claim or not is made.

So far I see 4 supports (NoPoint, Red, Shotty and myself) and one objection (mykonian). With 9 players alive I suggest 5 going either way should decide the course of action.

MOD – As usual I will be V/LA from 4pm EDT until Monday for regular family weekend duties.

This is basically my reasons for calling for the mass claim. And don't leave me off the support list, I definitely support it.

The results was the issue of receiving the gun a day after D2 had started. I wasn't sure if I could reveal timing of communications, and I can as long as I'm vague (and don't use timestamps).

mykonian is looking desperate. What is up with the demanding carapuce to vote dana? I think we should freeze voting until we've decided what we're doing re:massclaim.

Unvote

I would prefer waiting with answering your question untill Carapuce answers me. I have an explanation which I would have given then anyway.

If we are going to claim, I'm going to be against popcorn-style. I think the order should be determined by someone town: MoI, RC and LMP.

Seen what is going on, I think only the likely targets should claim. Sadly, I;m on that list now too, because I sound "desperate". I'm in no danger, and what you hear is annoyance. We have several people having good reads, and we are talking about

massclaim

. Just let the players claim who are in danger if you fear PR's are going to be hit. Seriously, people, get your priorities straight.

[mykonian]

@ Carapuce I asked you a simple question. To join the danawagon or give your reasons why you think you shouldn't vote dana. I'd like an answer.

[mykonian]

I'm very confused at this point, so I am going to lay out all the information I have and let you decide what to do with it. I am a TRACKER. Last night I tracked RC. He did indeed target Jack. The only problem was...HE DID NOT TARGET LMP!
I PMd the mod, who told me that the giving of the vig ability if it was successful (don't know exactly what that means) would show up in my tracking results. So here's what I am thinking. I am thinking HC was the real person to have the vig ability last night, and that's why we haven't gotten a CC, or maybe the real vig doesn't feel they can prove that they really had it. However it happened, though, I'm convinced RC did not have the vig ability, but is actually scum. Thoughts?

unvote vote:RedCoyote

Since the vig is given away after the night, you cannot track it. RC told this already.

Dana, if this is a fake, you are getting better at it.

HC was the obvious scumkill. Jack a more protown one. This would further make certain that LMP and RC are a foolish scumteam, and I know for sure RC isn't such a player. In short, your theory is wrong.


Now we get to the point why this is a fakeclaim. Dana sets his fakeclaims up when he needs them, at least, he did so very recently. In this case, the tracker claim is set up with all the knowledge available (everybody could read who RC targeted, and that he gave the vig after the night ended -> after dana got his "result").

When there is a mention of massclaim, scumdana gets into survival mode and sets up his claim

(which follows the meta of danascum), by asking the mod a question. He makes sure

everybody notices this by posting that in thread

. The coup de grace is when he claims, fakes his "guilty" on RC, setting him up for his first reasoned vote in the game.

basically, this all screams

fakeclaim

. Believe me, I know how a fakeclaim is formed (check my scummy), and this is one.

[mykonian]

LMP, I know I'm biased, but don't shoot me. You want to shoot someone you don't have enough information on, a lurker or active lurker. You are certain to have high accuracy there, as you can by a PoE find out that at least 2 of the scum's are in {shotty, dana, carapuce, antihero}. Seen that I am clearly not active lurking, you have more then enough posts where you can get a read on me. A lynch should be used for such a case, as then multiple town players could decide for themselves if I'm scum or not. Till now, several are confident I am, seen that the bandwagon on me at the start of this day didn't take off.

RC is right, and I would follow his (town) advice.

oh, and if you touch MoI or (scorpions replacement), Im going to lynch you. Those shots would be scummy.

[mykonian]

VOTE: Carapuce

Lets get this scumbag lynched.

[mykonian]

you aren't, though I would very much like to see a carapuce lynch.

Antihero overdid his bussing. If you check his posts, he is

very

perceptive of everything stef did. It's tunneling ++, and with the knowledge of Antihero being scum, you can piece together why he could find all those points on stef. He knew he was right.

[mykonian]

wait a minute. Why is LMP not dead? He shot scum, but why isn't he dead?

Do we have a shotty carapuce mafia left?

[mykonian]

Antihero overdid his bussing. If you check his posts, he is

very

perceptive of everything stef did. It's tunneling ++, and with the knowledge of Antihero being scum, you can piece together why he could find all those points on stef. He knew he was right.

So reworded:

"Mafia made a good BS case. Because mafia made a good BS case, it must be on mafia.

You are twisting my words here. You are obv scum.

[mykonian]

Well anti died, and was scum... great.
I also see that I'm in quite a bad perdiciment here...
That was a bad hammer yesterday yes, and it may get me lynched today, but I think over all it got things moving today.
As for my top scum pick for today I think it would have to be NoPoint and then Cara

Nopoint is town. I am going to stand by my earlier points that I'd rather not see you lynched.

I would advise you to vote cara. See the above cases. He is obv scum.

[mykonian]

good points Nopoint. I actually missed LMP being confirmed town. Of course he wouldn't have shot his buddy.

And shotty, wrong way around. I have found out that Carapuce is obvscum. You should vote Carapuce. Read it, it is obvious. Antihero actually knows that Stef is scum, if you see the case that he makes on him. The points are correct, but only make sense from the point where you already know that Carapuce is scum. VC analysis incriminates carapuce even more.

Seriously, we can discuss all we want, but Carapuce is today's lynch. Oh, yeah, we aren't going to do that massclaim thingy. Nor are we going to tell who the vig is now. With this scumbag we can't go wrong and it is better to have our powerroles concealed for tonight too.

And that defense of Carapuce is scummy too. It practically boils down to: "It might have another explanation". Well, that would be such a huge coincidence, that I don't be believe it.

Confirm vote carapuce

[mykonian]

LMP

– I also suggest you tell us who you passed the Vig to. At this juncture if we lynch scum PoE should take us to a victory regardless if the Vig is lost tonight.

Good news/bad news. I passed the vig to RC. Which means I still have it and have to pass it to someone new. Badnews, I have no idea who to trust.

I don't want it. Give it to Nopoint. He's as certain town as you can get it. And trust me. I'm glad you shot Antihero, as that made certain Carapuce is scum too.

[mykonian]

MoI.

Do you trust me?

[mykonian]

Then please, no massclaim. Lets do this with simple and decent scumhunting.

I have no real intention to rush the day, though I wouldn't mind it being short if we lynched scum. Cara is obvscum, so I don't mind if we lynch him now or in a week.

[mykonian]

Can someone give me the reader's digest version of the case on Carapuce? I spent pretty much all of D2 defending myself, so I'm woefully behind on actually hunting scum.

Antihero focussed on Stef way too much to justify Stefs scumminess. The points he found were quite often nitpicking, but would make perfectly sense if you assume that Antihero knew that Stef was scum.

Antihero clearly overdid his distancing. He noticed every single mistake Stef made. And Carapuces recent defense is horrible.


Have you given the vig away, LMP?

[mykonian]

Yes, I had to or it would have been randomed. Is there a reason I should say who I sent it to?

NO.

That person will if he want to, but there really is no reason to help the scum that much.

[mykonian]

LMP, I'll ask you the same thing I asked MoI.

Do you trust me?

[mykonian]

this case is terrible. While the points are already all missing the point, the most fun thing is:

cara obviously just picked some player in the dropdown list of the players who have posted in this game.

Scorpion has already been replaced. Nobody who was town would simply pick a player and make a case on them, as cara did.

Does anyone wonder why Cara hasn't been lynched yet? Because scum doesn't want to bus his buddy

Prove me you are town. Hammer. We know Cara is scum.

[mykonian]

Do you trust me enough to hammer?

Well, if you haven't accidentaly given the vig to him, of course.

[mykonian]

I promis you that by tomorrow, you'll have more then enough information from this day. It all went quick so scum couldn't really settle.

[mykonian]

shotty, you are making no sense. Cara is scum. Now you are falling for his manipulation. He called you town to buddy up.

Now, you are town, that we know. But now we need to lynch scum. Cara just proved he was scum with his insane attack on nopoint. He just calls names in the hope of starting a counterwagon.

[mykonian]

Shotty, hammer that scumbag.

[mykonian]

If Cara does not flip scum I will be highly disappointed. This qualifies as rushing the f'in Day.

I'm especially not happy to see LOL coming from LMP after he votes Cara right now.

If he flips scum, both Nopoint and Mykonian are nearly confirmed townies.

With LMP this means that we have 2 nearly confirmed townies in lylo. Vig, shoot MoI, and we should win this game.

[mykonian]

VOTE: shotty

If you win this, Nopoint, you fully deserve it. But we lynched the godfather, didn't we, Kunkstar?

[mykonian]

is it that obvious?

[mykonian]

that English isn't my native language...

And please tell me we lynched the godfather.

[mykonian]

I fear Kunkstar is asleep.

[mykonian]

This was the one scenario I didn't want. I have had a very strong townread on you, but D3 I saw some towntells with shotty. If only one of you had been in endgame, I would have most likely gone for the other person alive.

But with both.

and an innocent result on shotty (I investigated him because I thought he was likely to get to endgame as scum would keep him alive) I was starting to doubt my reads.

Oh, yes, the reason I didn't want massclaim was because as cop (thats me), I was very content with the vig acting as a lightning rod for the kills. And it is common knowledge that the cop is the stronger role.

However, from day one I have expected that there was a GF in this setup. It would make sense as scum didn't really have other PR's available to them (the RB was a broken role).

[mykonian]

at first I did. But I really haven't liked LMP's play pretty much the whole game.

Plus that miller is and stays a very good mafia fakeclaim. I could imagine that there was a mafia with 2 goons and a godfather, and that one of the goons would get the idea of fakeclaiming miller (hoping that the cop would support them).

[mykonian]

Ahh I knew you were the cop when you hesitate so much after we lynch Shotty. Yup, there's a godfather alright and it's me ^^

[mykonian]

do you want me to give a reaction?

[mykonian]

Damn.

I guess you had it too easy. You bussed your buddy perfectly though.

[mykonian]

Read the death topic, and it seems I have something to explain.

I have, here and there, not been completely honest with you. The DP lynch was from my point of view a decent one. After Stef had been "confirmed" (you are going to die, Jack. As soon as I can), my position wasn't great and the last thing I wanted was the bandwagon on me to take off. I did not really have an interest letting the DP wagon fail as I didn't see any other wagon that I liked. Of course, I didn't want to give that away because "I'm going to lynch someone else but me" is generally not accepted I stuck with my read and when I had the change, I hammered before any discussion could arise. Bye DP, on who I had a neutral read.
Sorry haschel for the investigation, but I had a gut-scum read on you and I wanted to get a confirmed read on you.

D2. Sure I didn't mind a stef-lynch, but when I did try that, Dana (please get some experience) for one dismissed it as being too old. While the wagon had momentum on D1, this had completely disappeared and with Stef lurking like hell, there was nothing but "lurking" to convince the town. And virtually nobody on MS is convinced by that, so Stef's lurking was paying off.

D3. With the guilty, things were going well. I had one solid read from the rest of the game... which proved to be wrong but nevertheless. The plan was very easy. Get a lot of pressure on the Cara wagon, without claiming. Nopoint didn't hesitate, shotty gave off definate towntells, but LMP waited till somebody actually tried to convince him and MoI did nothing but say that we shouldn't quicklynch and we needed massclaim.

well, I explained something d4, but with shotty and nopoint as townreads, I didn't think it could go wrong. Only one scenario I wouldn't know what to do, which was the MoI-LMP scenario.


Shotty's day 4 posts didn't really matter. Nopoint had basically won the game by keeping me alive and convincing with his bus D3 that my earlier read on him was right.

[mykonian]

about the game in general (aka

@mod

)

If you are going to make a game, post all the rules, and know all the mechanics. Everything you change while the game is already going is going to make me sad.

About the setup.

Town had 2 vig kills and 4 lynches. If the last lynch had been right, that would have made a 3/6 = 1/2 lynch/kill accuracy, with a town win. That is pretty great for town. Together with 2 information roles, this game seems town sided. For example, if Jack wouldn't have made his fakeclaim, and stef had been lynched day 1, with dana reading his result the right way that would have given town 1 (practically) confirmed player, 2 scum, and 6 unknown players. If the vig, or the cop, or the lynch pick off one more scum, the tracker can confirm every night. For every nightkill scum makes, town makes the lynchpool of scum smaller with 3.

I think this game was a little townsided and it is only given to good scumplay and terrible townplay (and I'm not talking about shotty), that scum won this.

[mykonian]

Good job nopoint for picking up my spot, well played

Jack and Shotty both definitely shot the town in the foot. After I saw Jack fakeclaim with a best friend on my scumbuddy, there was much lols. Hard to lose after that.

I figured haschel and red would know it was fake. Haschel did anyway.

But you and antihero's bussing threw me off on that.

Can't say my claim caused the town loss. Probably had the best read on the game at the point I claimed.

you didn't do a thing with it, and the only read you did something with was wrong. And since one thing hardly ever causes a town loss, you didn't

cause

it. But it was a terrible fakeclaim that would have done little in the towns favor if it hadn't been on scum, and was quite devastating when you did claim an innocent on town.

I'm quite mad that you took away my chance of leading my first day 1 lynch on scum. Had I finally caught scum in the first 3 pages of the game, is there some insane towny who has to fakeclaim an innocent on him. (*&%Q*@$

[mykonian]

I had picked out xscorp and antihero due partly to their scummy cases on stef, shifting the wagon off him was the correct move given what I'd seen.

And you voted me because my case was scummy too, I assume. Even looking at it afterwards, I have really mentioned fairly accurate scumtells I found on Stef. And if we look at the following votecounts, we see a bandwagon on Dana, Me, David. But not scorp or antihero which you now name happily.

Basically, from the point where you thought you should shake up the game with a fakeclaim town lost all its direction. And now afterwards you try to justify it by saying you suspected scorp and antihero.

Next time, don't think too much. Just lynch scum.

[mykonian]

Blehhh

Why do you keep making posts when you obviously don't have anything to say?

[mykonian]

Thanks for the game Kunk - it was an interesting mechanic that I'm sure can be adapted to other roles / games.

I'm not enamored of my effort this game. I didn't really get any effective hunting going until Antihero died and the VC analysis pointed to both the remaining scum in the Cara - NoPoint - Shotty group.

But by then Mykoninan was so dead set in quick-ending the day it became moot.

I'm sorry, but I had very little confidence in your analysis. As was remarked earlier, my hammer of DP D1 made absolutely no sense, and I expected that you would at least mention my name in your analysis. Nothing.

And I hoped to get information from a situation where scum didn't have time to settle. Next time I'll do that part again, seen afterwards it worked better then I had expected, I should have been more confident in my reads from that day. About the last day... well I'm afraid Xscorp/Nopoint had been on my townlist all the time. And you can't go that wrong with a read you have from page 2, right? :/

davidp was clearly town and his claim was was clearly town...scum can think of a fake claim easy!

That rush to end the day confused me greatly.

What were the alternatives? You shot down the only scumwagon we had that day.

[mykonian]

If you are going to make a game, post all the rules, and know all the mechanics. Everything you change while the game is already going is going to make me sad.

The last sentence was why I was really hesitant about the whole vig deal at the end. I was wondering, now that you've played in the "pass the x" style mechanic, if you would like to review the Large Theme version of the game. I believe it was you who offered when I posted in the Review Thread.

Yes, I did. I'm a little short on time right now, but if you aren't in a hurry, I should be able to help you.