Mini 1040 - Everyone's A Critic! [Game Over]

[Haschel Cedricson]

@The Scorp Fos/Vote: I've seen him react to pressure and I thought it would be a good place to put some to get reactions. Once I voted he voted right back instead of asking for reasons. That => he voted for me voting for him. If he would have had a problem with my reasons he would have asked, something I pointed out previously. It's just fishy.

What reactions were you hoping to get, considering XScorpion had had three votes on him on the previous page? Where is this pressure coming from?

@Mykonian: You constantly refusing to acknowledge that I gave a reason for my attack on scorp really rubbed me the wrong way. Antihero was able to find my posts related to the subject easily. You, instead, quoted ALL my posts which did NOT explain my reasons and said that I did not post any reasons. Why would town do that exactly?

You didn't give your reasons or any indication that you had reasons until several posts after your vote, and after you started to take flak for voting on a prior bandwagon without giving reasoning.

The fos was just part of me putting pressure on him.

An FoS is a shitty way to apply pressure. If you want pressure, you vote.

@Antihero: It is scummy because of the OMGUS. Him invoking another game for not asking me why I voted for him is just fluff. Not defending yourself whatsoever is anti-town. I would never let an unexplained vote on me without even trying to find out what's behind it. My vote was not crap vote, fine, not a great one but still not crap and how could have scorp know if it's crap or not without asking? Also, my vote on mykonian was not OMGUS. Voting for the person voting for you =/= OMGUS.

The last sentence of your paragraph is comical in light of the first sentence of your paragraph. What was he supposed to defend himself against? You didn't give him anything to defend. Maybe you had a reason to vote him, but you sure didn't act like it, and XScorpion reacted accordingly. That's not OMGUS and you know it.

[RedCoyote]

Why exactly would you try and figure out who is

EASIER

to lynch? And then you vote for ... dana?

That's very much out of context. mykonian claimed that XScorp was an easy lynch. I disputed that and contrasted it with Antihero or dana, both of whom I thought would be more fitting of mykonian's description.

This had nothing to do with my vote whatsoever. Are you proposing I should ignore dana because I think he's an easier person to lynch than the rest of the player list? If not, I don't see where you're coming from.

RC: So yes, you voted for dana because it was convenient. Basically you were full of it and acted like you knew something you don't just for the sake of posting.

No, I had a specific purpose for my vote. It's written as clear as it can possibly be. He had not made a decent post up to that point. There's no way to really dispute that.

Additionally, I don't know how you can make the claim that I was posting for the sake of posting. I addressed multiple issues in that post. Five different players, my vote change, and some commentary on the game itself all occurred during that post. That's, like, the opposite of posting for it's own sake.

[Stef]

What reactions were you hoping to get, considering XScorpion had had three votes on him on the previous page? Where is this pressure coming from?

So more pressure would not get any different reactions? Don't see where you're getting at.

You didn't give your reasons or any indication that you had reasons until several posts after your vote, and after you started to take flak for voting on a prior bandwagon without giving reasoning.

Doesn't matter. The reason was THERE and he posted afterwards and completely ignored it.

An FoS is a shitty way to apply pressure. If you want pressure, you vote.

And if you want to vote someone for being scummy and pressure another you vote for the scummy one and fos the one you want to pressure. How is it shitty?

The last sentence of your paragraph is comical in light of the first sentence of your paragraph. What was he supposed to defend himself against? You didn't give him anything to defend. Maybe you had a reason to vote him, but you sure didn't act like it, and XScorpion reacted accordingly. That's not OMGUS and you know it.

... If I were in his shoes I would have asked. He didn't. He just voted back. This is just a case of you say, I say, it's not going anywhere.

[Haschel Cedricson]

What reactions were you hoping to get, considering XScorpion had had three votes on him on the previous page? Where is this pressure coming from?

So more pressure would not get any different reactions? Don't see where you're getting at.

Jack had unvoted, putting XScorpion at two votes. Your "pressure" vote put XScorpion back up to three, so you didn't really add more pressure at all, did you? What reactions were you hoping to get? What made THIS "XScorpion has three votes" more pressure-filled than the last "XScorpion has three votes"?

[Stef]

That's very much out of context. mykonian claimed that XScorp was an easy lynch. I disputed that and contrasted it with Antihero or dana, both of whom I thought would be more fitting of mykonian's description.

you were speaking out your behind when you said the above then considering you said afterwards that

No, actually I don't have meta on either dana or Antihero, so I'm only making gross generalizations about them.

So which is it? You disputed and contrasted mykonian by thinking that antihero and dana would be more fitting? Or you were just making a gross generalization regarding these two with no meta behind it?

Additionally, I don't know how you can make the claim that I was posting for the sake of posting.

Then what is the above? Making a gross generalization about two players based on nothing to make a point against another player to defend said player while this being half your post. You're right, it may not be just posting for the sake of posting. Too early for partner speculation though.

[quote="RC"This had nothing to do with my vote whatsoever. Are you proposing I should ignore dana because I think he's an easier person to lynch than the rest of the player list? If not, I don't see where you're coming from. [/quote]
Hmm.. dana posted some now. Do you still think dana is scum? Why?

[Stef]

What reactions were you hoping to get, considering XScorpion had had three votes on him on the previous page? Where is this pressure coming from?

So more pressure would not get any different reactions? Don't see where you're getting at.

Jack had unvoted, putting XScorpion at two votes. Your "pressure" vote put XScorpion back up to three, so you didn't really add more pressure at all, did you? What reactions were you hoping to get? What made THIS "XScorpion has three votes" more pressure-filled than the last "XScorpion has three votes"?

Ehm. Didn't realize he was at 3 votes, down at two and then I put him back at 3. No, I guess I didn't add

more pressure

.

[Haschel Cedricson]

That's very much out of context. mykonian claimed that XScorp was an easy lynch. I disputed that and contrasted it with Antihero or dana, both of whom I thought would be more fitting of mykonian's description.

you were speaking out your behind when you said the above then considering you said afterwards that

No, actually I don't have meta on either dana or Antihero, so I'm only making gross generalizations about them.

So which is it? You disputed and contrasted mykonian by thinking that antihero and dana would be more fitting? Or you were just making a gross generalization regarding these two with no meta behind it?

This is actually a good point and RC needs to respond to it.

[mykonian]

@The Scorp Fos/Vote: I've seen him react to pressure and I thought it would be a good place to put some to get reactions. Once I voted he voted right back instead of asking for reasons. That => he voted for me voting for him. If he would have had a problem with my reasons he would have asked, something I pointed out previously. It's just fishy.

I can't really blame him. First, your FoS was made while you had "reasons" to vote me. It is a

Finger of Suspicion

, you now acknowledge that you actually weren't suspicious of him then. Then you vote Xscorpion while your vote on me failed, and again you weren't yet suspicious of him (it was a pressure vote), but Xscorpion was

by chance

the largest bandwagon. You didn't actually notice.

I have in my whole carreer never heard of a "pressure FoS". People don't get pressure by it anyway, and it is mostly a way of giving the rest of the game a hint that you found something suspicious. The second part that really makes me doubt you, is that on the moment your case on me fails, you hop on Xscorpion.


And then the thing I absolutely hate. In this case it isn't even scorpions mistake. You vote him without being suspicious of him, then he has to react. From then on, you, Stef, say he should have

asked

in stead of voted you. You are creating a situation where scorpion can't do anything right. No wonder you suddenly "find" reasons to continue your vote on him later. (when you switched it from a pressure vote to a serious one).

See, I don't have a problem with pressure votes, but I do have with "pressure FoS's" and I do have a problem with pressure votes becoming serious votes for horrible reasons (he voted me after I made an unreasoned vote on him!)

when Stef his argument against me fails (he backs off after scorpion and Jack state he is wrong).

GAH! This is just you twisting events into looking suspicious. What happened is: You said something, I disagreed and brought arguments, you brought some more arguments, I saw your point and realized that I was wrong and backed off.

You are saying that I had an argument against you, some people told me I am wrong so I just dropped it to avoid pressure which is not what happened. [/quote]

Surprising that first Jack and scorpion have to agree with me before you finally backed off. And even more surprising "backing off" means autovoting the largest bandwagon, which really troubles me...

[mykonian]

Just so that everybody knows what the current points against Stef are (don't read it if you have read the thread well):

...
What you are saying could look like you are trying to set-up false townie confirmations. Just saying.

Unvote Parker, Vote mykonian

Scorp get's just a fos for now but we got bigger fish to fry right now.

A FoS that actually doesn't show suspicion, while the vote on another player does.

He's using nothing but mod wifom (scum couldn't possibly get two night kills because that would be unblanced) to state that any person who has been the vig is a townie.
1.

Most Mini games are unbalanced and biased towards scum, even after they are reviewed.

2. You don't know the rest of the PRs in the game.
3. You have no way of knowing if the Vig role hasn't been assigned completely random for today.

By what the mod is telling us the vig can be scum as well as town because he repeatedly used the word "player". By what mykonian is telling us,

tomorrow, the first thing this "vig" must do, is claim that he was the vig the first day. He is from then on a confirmed townie.

Therefore my problem with what he's saying. He is outguessing the mod and using that guess to call the D1 vig a confirmed townie.

Preview edit:
I've read what you are saying. You are still wrong for the reasons above.

In the bolded, first reason, stef says that he votes me because two people would have missed that this game becomes pointless if the vig is given to scum day 1 (and hugely unbalanced for a mini). That is seriously stretching to maintain a vote on someone.

Hmm... I was wrong. Scum having the vig ability would mean they could just pass it on among themselves and thus completely breaking the game. Mykonian is therefore probably right and not scummy for that post.

Unvote, Vote Scorp

Backing off, joining a bandwagon with a converted pressure FoS.

...

Before I unvote though, Scorp, something jack noticed does strike me as a lil bit odd. I know that I initially voted you to add some pressure, however, you seem to be fine parking your vote on me without me giving any reasons and adding pressure is obviously not it. Why not ask if I don't give any reasons? Would it be because it gives you an excuse to park your vote?

Sorry bout that, I still have to wash the bad taste of Open 231 out of my mouth. I sometimes forget that people might actually answer me when I ask them why they're voting...

So... you apologize for not asking what my reasons were for voting for you. Nice. Liking my vote. Also, OMGUS rocks!

And here stef converts his pressure vote to a serious one. Scorpion's vote wasn't OMGUS, and the above was at most a doubtful scumtell. Stef was building his case on scorp while his vote was already there, and this made that the reasoning for his scorpion vote were incredibily weak all the time.

@stef. In stead of flat out calling me a liar, please defend against these points, give quotes where I must be wrong etc.

[Stef]

Your problem regarding my FOS is a personal view. It cannot be argued anymore than my personal view can. In my view I didn't do anything wrong.

You are creating a situation where scorpion can't do anything right.

Nope. He could have asked. I even called him on it. Anyway, don't care enough about this argument to keep pushing it.

That is seriously stretching to maintain a vote on someone.

I agreed that it is unlikely. It still DOES NOT clear anybody. The game does not become pointless with scum being given this ability D1. It becomes a little dodgier to balance. ANY mod outguessing = A STRETCH. You cannot counter me accepting all possibilities with MOD OUTGUESSING.

At the end you're just being silly. You tell me to defend against these points with quotes? You're just saying that my claimed intentions are false (which you and I can neither prove and disprove thus creating a moot point), that you think what I did is horrible, something you absolutely hate, wrong, something you have a problem with but it's all from a POV that has nothing to do with scumhunting. We might as well be having this conversation in GD, it would probably do more good than it is doing now.

[DavidParker]

sorry guys i've gotten really sick and have the worst migraines so any form of looking at a screen does not go well with my head. Hopefully will be better in next few days.

[mykonian]

Your problem regarding my FOS is a personal view. It cannot be argued anymore than my personal view can. In my view I didn't do anything wrong.

You are creating a situation where scorpion can't do anything right.

Nope. He could have asked. I even called him on it. Anyway, don't care enough about this argument to keep pushing it.

Asking is weak. I loved this approach. If he had asked, you could have voted him for the same.

And that FoS is certainly not only my personal view, seen as HackerHuck disagreed with you on the same too. Calling it "pressure-something" is brilliant to avoid having to give reasons for them. You haven't done anything good with it (as nobody is impressed with a FoS). As HackerHuck pointed out, your "pressure vote" on Scorpion was quite useless too (because of the unvote before). Your first vote on me was a mistake, and your last is simple omgus ("you lie about me! I have given a reason for my vote, later!"), which seen as your reason for a scorpion vote is horrible hardly holds.

So Stef, what good have you actually done in this game?

[kunkstar7]

:: VoteCount 1x5 ::

Antihero (1) -

DavidParker

MagnaofIllusion (0) -
RedCoyote (1) -

Stef

danakillsu (1) -

RedCoyote

Jack (2) -

Jack, Xscorpion

Haschel Cedricson (1) -

imaginality

jelly jiggler (0) -

XScorpion (1) -

danakillsu

Stef (3) -

mykonian, Haschel Cedricson, Antihero

imaginality (0) -
mykonian (0) -

DavidParker (1) -

MagnaOfIllusion

Not Voting (1) -

jelly jiggler

With 12 Alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

September 19, 2010 5:00PM EST.

[Stef]

Why exactly could I vote for someone who asks why I'm voting for said someone? O_o

So... your saying that my reason of pressuring Scorp was brilliant to not explain my vote? Why would I just want to cast a vote and give no explanation for it? My vote on you was not a mistake. I voted you because I thought you were scummy for trying to false-confirm a partner D2. It can still be interpreted as such as there is no way, beyond any doubt, to know this game's setup. I unvoted then just because your reasoning was plausible. My second vote on you was also valid and not an OMGUS. Lying & misreping are clear scumtells. OMGUS means to vote for someone

primarily

because that person is voting for you. This is not the case. When we're both very aware of what OMGUS means and still call my vote two different things it is a matter of personal view or intent of manipulation.

What good have I actually done this game? More than half the players in the game.

[Stef]

Jelly jiggler, you've swam through 7 pages of heavy content without commenting anything about it. All you've posted is a self-vote in the rvs, a fallacy claiming that I was rolefishing and ideas about D4. Time to give some feedback about the game, don't you think?

Who do you suspect right now? Why?

[mykonian]

Why exactly could I vote for someone who asks why I'm voting for said someone? O_o

weaksauce. Being careful, etc. Am I the only one that thinks that it is a scumtell if you are trying to stay friends with everyone?

So... your saying that my reason of pressuring Scorp was brilliant to not explain my vote? Why would I just want to cast a vote and give no explanation for it? My vote on you was not a mistake. I voted you because I thought you were scummy for trying to false-confirm a partner D2. It can still be interpreted as such as there is no way, beyond any doubt, to know this game's setup. I unvoted then just because your reasoning was plausible. My second vote on you was also valid and not an OMGUS. Lying & misreping are clear scumtells. OMGUS means to vote for someone

primarily

because that person is voting for you. This is not the case. When we're both very aware of what OMGUS means and still call my vote two different things it is a matter of personal view or intent of manipulation.

What good have I actually done this game? More than half the players in the game.

Calling someone a liar is so easy. Saying someone is misrepping you is a bit harder. Get some quotes and try to convince the rest If you can't, your vote is an OMGUS-vote, k?

[Stef]

Your lie was that I never explained my vote for scorp. You pushed that lie a lot.

Just ask yourself this: why did Stef post these two posts. He didn't have a scumread from other posts yet. His point is not "myk is trying to make a scumbuddy a confirmed townie", no it is "myk is trying to confirm someone he shouldn't". He is arguing I'm wrong, not that I'm scum.

This is a misrep - I clearly suggested you were scummy for trying to mislead the town into confirming scum. Jack called on your misrep as well.

This all means that Stef assumes the mod to be a complete moron. He did this, so his vote on me made sense, as I would have been wrong (if those assumptions held)

This is a misrep - I never assumed the mod to be anything but fair. I make the correct assumption that we do not know the setup of the game and that it is not impossible for Mafia to start with the vig-kill. You assume that if this was the case than the mod would be a complete moron, not me.

when Stef his argument against me fails (he backs off after scorpion and Jack state he is wrong).

This is a misrep - you suggest that I backed off because people pressured me to. I did no such thing. I backed off because I saw that I might be wrong.

Basically you twist what I'm saying to fit your case, ignoring my intent.

This is why it was NOT damn OMGUS.

Not sure if this will bring us anything but..

@Mod: was the Vig role assigned D1 randomly only to the town player pool or the entire player pool?

[kunkstar7]

@Mod: was the Vig role assigned D1 randomly only to the town player pool or the entire player pool?

The Vigilante Ability was assigned randomly from the entire pool.

[mykonian]

Your lie was that I never explained my vote for scorp. You pushed that lie a lot.

Sorry, I assume people give reasons before they vote. Further, pressure proved to be the reason, but later the vote became serious and I had more trouble understanding that.

Just ask yourself this: why did Stef post these two posts. He didn't have a scumread from other posts yet. His point is not "myk is trying to make a scumbuddy a confirmed townie", no it is "myk is trying to confirm someone he shouldn't". He is arguing I'm wrong, not that I'm scum.

This is a misrep - I clearly suggested you were scummy for trying to mislead the town into confirming scum. Jack called on your misrep as well.

Jack and I talked about this, yes.

I'll get the quote of what troubled me, it'll clarify this:

What you are saying could look like you are trying to set-up false townie confirmations. Just saying.

Unvote Parker, Vote mykonian

The "could look like", and "false townie confirmations" triggered me. In stead of saying "myk is trying to get his scumbuddy falsely confirmed" which would be arguing with as a starting point that I am scum, you started with that "I was wrong". The difference is that town has scumhunting on his mind, and will usually start with "myk is scum because", in stead of "myk is wrong because".

This all means that Stef assumes the mod to be a complete moron. He did this, so his vote on me made sense, as I would have been wrong (if those assumptions held)

This is a misrep - I never assumed the mod to be anything but fair. I make the correct assumption that we do not know the setup of the game and that it is not impossible for Mafia to start with the vig-kill. You assume that if this was the case than the mod would be a complete moron, not me.

[/quote]Seen the answer of the mod, you proved to be right. The mod does disappoint me a bit, though. (sorry kunk, it isn't that terrible)

when Stef his argument against me fails (he backs off after scorpion and Jack state he is wrong).

This is a misrep - you suggest that I backed off because people pressured me to. I did no such thing. I backed off because I saw that I might be wrong.

I can't really misrep you here. I see Scorp posting, I see Jack posting, I see you backing off. Can't really do anything with your "but I had other motivations".

Basically, Stef, these all are misunderstandings, from my and your side. Wouldn't want to vote on that

[mykonian]

@Mod: was the Vig role assigned D1 randomly only to the town player pool or the entire player pool?

The Vigilante Ability was assigned randomly from the entire pool.

Soooo, what did we learn. If scum has the vig right now, Stef could have been arguing from the point where he knows he is right.
If scum doesn't have the vig right now, Myko could have been arguing from the point where he thought he knew he was right.

Who else had big opinions in the "vig=town" debate?

[Stef]

If scum has the vig now miko could have been actually planning to confirm a buddy all along.

This is the sort of thing the mod would have specified if not assigned randomly to the entire pool of players. Also, see? asking things is better than assuming things. Always.

[Stef]

Also, it's extremely easy to call a misrep a misunderstanding. The difference only stands in your intention on which we can just speculate.

[mykonian]

Also, it's extremely easy to call a misrep a misunderstanding. The difference only stands in your intention on which we can just speculate.

Which is why I answered with my point of view Does that hold? then we had a misunderstanding. If they don't, I'm a manipulating scumbag, who uses manipulation to get townies lynched

[XScorpion]

Meaning your vote might very well be on a towny that is actually helping the town. I wouldn't call Jack antitown.

If he's so intent on helping town then he can unvote and vote for someone he thinks is scum. Voting for yourself is anti-town, period. It doesn't help town in any way whatsoever, and assuming he is town, means he's voting for the only person he knows FOR SURE is town. How is that possibly useful?

I'm very happy with this game so far, I have three good town reads and three slight scum reads,

Then freaking unvote and vote one of them! I'm tired of asking.

"Stef voted scorp without any reason" - false, I stated my reason
"Scorp votes Stef for having no reasons for his vote" - Scorp did not know if stef had any reason. He didn't even bother to ask. He voted for me for voting for him. It is blatant OMGUS.

What the hell is this?

I voted you first.

Go die.
And it's not my bloody responsibility to explain what you're thinking. If you were pro-town, you'd be trying to convince other people to vote with you (using a legitimate case), not blindly hopping onto my early wagon for no reason.

I've seen him react to pressure and I thought it would be a good place to put some to get reactions.

Once I voted he voted right back instead of asking for reasons.

That => he voted for me voting for him. If he would have had a problem with my reasons he would have asked, something I pointed out previously. It's just fishy.

DIE LIAR DIE

unvote
Vote: Stef

"Oh really? If RVS votes aren't meant for discussion through pressuring, what are they meant for?" I said that your vote was obviously not to add pressure. What did you understand? Also, do you think I am scum? If yes, why?

LYNCH ALL LIARS

[Stef]

That was an actual misunderstanding I apparently shared with mykonian. We were both under the impression you voted for me after I voted for you. I didn't say you should explain what I'm thinking. I'm saying you should have asked for my reasons. Asking a question is the opposite of explaining something. How exactly did you mix the two? Again with the "no reason"? Really?

Why aren't you voting for mykonian for "lying" about the same thing?

Also, decide, it's either a policy lynch vote or you voting for me being scummy. Good job at failing.