Mini 1040 - Everyone's A Critic! [Game Over]

[mykonian]

I think it's valid for him to be suspicious of mykonian feeling like he has to fall back on that.

Thank you. A scummy post at the start is just as important as one that is late. Do you want a theory discussion about that?

[RedCoyote]

Not particularly. I said it was valid; I didn't say I agreed with it (protip: check out who I'm voting). Do you think it's invalid?

[MagnaofIllusion]

LynchMePlease ISO

–

ISO 0 – Claims Miller and immediately votes Stef based on set-up speculation (which we now know is a Null since the Mod clarified the mechanics multiple times during Day 1) and his interaction with XScorp

What was the problem with Jack? He read pretty town to me.

Interesting early assessment to me based on the flip.

ISO 2 – Calls XScorp Town.

ISO 3 – Presses DP why dana is a better wagon the Stef.

ISO 4 – I feel this is a mis-rep of Dana’s answer to HC’s shoot or don’t shoot Stef question. It ignores the context of HC’s scenario and specifically states that Dana advocates shooting no-one else, which is false. Scum points assessed.

ISO 7-8 – Theoretical discussion with XScorp about whether scum would offer up partners on a To-be-vigged list.

ISO 9 – Votes Dana. Not that since the vote for Stef in ISO 0 has had ZERO direct interacions with Stef. The only thing that has changed is Jack’s fake-claim. Given he called Jack Town above perhaps this is believable.

I dunno, but hopping right back to RC without any scum hunting inbetween seems like a pretty poor choice.

I think this quote is telling. Read his ISO to this point. He really hasn’t scum-hunted at all. His initial vote is for Stef based on his initial read in. Does not pursue Stef with questions or observations. Mixes it up with dana pretty much solely on how he answered a theoretical question from HC. When Stef is ‘cleared’ immediately jumps to dana and delivers the above stinger.

ISO 11-15 – Posts solely focused at refuting dana’s case on Red. I agree that dana’s case is bad but wonder why the excessive tunnelling.

ISO 16 – Questions if Jack is going to add anything useful to the game. How did he arrive at Jack as Town in the first place if he isn’t adding anything useful?

ISO 17-18 – Despite not one mention of mykonian in the ISO to this point suddenly he is a prime target worth a vote based on mykonian not liking Jack’s play and OMGUS.

ISO 19 – “I’m not letting you manipulate me” – horrible response to mykonian’s post.

ISO 20 – Pulls mykonian’s ‘Jack is Town’ from early on as support for his almost non-existant case.

ISO 21 – Suddenly, after much badgering on my and XScorp’s part, David Parker is ISOed and worthy of a vote. Mykonian as an interaction suspect disappears for the rest of the day.

Vig Jack is my recommendation.

Suddenly we’ve come full circle and Jack needs Vigged. Despite the fact that Jack was Town in ISO 0, that he believed Jack's claim regarding Stef, and Jack’s case on mykonian was worth a brief vote. And only making a single post inquiring of Jack (ISO 16).

ISO 24 – Echoes my dislike of the immediate Stef votes.

ISO 25 – Response filled with contradictions. Says his ‘case’ on mykonian wasn’t bad, but then asks why bad cases must be from scum. Huh?

Overall the ISO read has reinforced my gut read that LMP is playing very scummy. His interactions tend to be limited to one person at a time. After voting he rarely revisits his suspects. His suspicions flow from Stef to dana to mykonian to David along what is mostly strongly supported public opinion. I don’t see any significant scum-hunting. His inconsistency on people (Jack for instance) also twinges my Scum-dar.

For the record – at this point in the game he’s had almost no interactions with Antihero, RedCoyote and Shotty. This I am storing for later analysis if LMP is indeed scum as I suspect.

VOTE: LynchMePlease

@Stef

– mykonian makes a valid point. You lurked out the pressure once Jack ‘claim’ exonerated you and and have done NOTHING today.

[LimMePls]

Bad vote MoI.

@MoI: What is your read of mykonian?

[LimMePls]

ISO 21 – Suddenly, after much badgering on my and XScorp’s part, David Parker is ISOed and worthy of a vote. Mykonian as an interaction suspect disappears for the rest of the day.

Vig Jack is my recommendation.

Suddenly we’ve come full circle and Jack needs Vigged. Despite the fact that Jack was Town in ISO 0, that he believed Jack's claim regarding Stef, and Jack’s case on mykonian was worth a brief vote. And only making a single post inquiring of Jack (ISO 16).

Way to take that out of context. This was after DP claimed goon, so based on their interactions, I thought Jack might be scum. Since DP was clearly lying, that changes things.

[LimMePls]

Overall the ISO read has reinforced my gut read that LMP is playing very scummy. His interactions tend to be limited to one person at a time. After voting he rarely revisits his suspects. His suspicions flow from Stef to dana to mykonian to David along what is mostly strongly supported public opinion. I don’t see any significant scum-hunting. His inconsistency on people (Jack for instance) also twinges my Scum-dar.

Earlier you claimed that you didn't like my play because it fit with my "scum-meta". What about this case you just made fits with my scum meta?

[mykonian]

assume a planet with only one corporation. If a person on that planet works, they work for that corporation and get their money from that corporation. Everything that is bought is made by that corporation.

How can this corporation make a lasting profit?

obviously. And even if it would be "valid", it certainly doesn't make my vote "awful". It would make it "outdated", or "lazy".

But what my biggest problem is with the people voting me:

first MoI pronounces that he dislikes stef-votes.
then dana posts theory stuff.
following this xscorpion pronounces a dislike of the Stef vote.
then LMP "hates" these votes.

Then, in his second post, dana votes me.
shotty follows (better backing behind it then his initial stef-vote)

Now, I can totally understand that people forgot the Stefcase, and because I didn't add a complete reasoning, people could dislike this vote.

But, at the start of the day, how often does it happen people directly vote because someone else voted with little reason? Barely.

We can see this reaction in MoI's and scorpions response. They dislike the vote, but choose to wait what happens, at least not to act on it immediately. MoI esspecially focuses too much on Jack dying in stead of the initial case. Scorpion is clearly put off by the quick start of my vote. I already have a townread on them, and their reasonings behind the dislike of the vote are calm and tell exactly what their problem is.

Then, we have the third: Lynchme:

I hate those votes. Absolutely terrible.

@MoI: I dunno what to tell you, I'm town aligned miller. ISO away.

First: away with the subtelity of the previous (towny) players! No reasoning, nothing. (and then followed with a sentence which only tells that he is "town alligned")

Here I posted what my reasons were, so no more misreads like MoI's, or xscorpion (since my vote is clearly not an impuls)

vote: mykonian

The Stef vote is awful and his last post looks like scum rolefishing.

No reasoning, while being after the explanation of my vote, and while he didn't vote me in his first post.

The only other thing that changed? The fact that other people stated that the vote on stef by me and docshotty were horrible

You see my problem now? Dana needed support from others for his vote, which was badly reasoned. When asked for his reasons, after asking

three!

times, he finally asks:

1) He was supposed to be confirmed townie but wasn't NK'd. This is nothing but WIFOM.
2) The extensive case already on him. If there is a case, it's not yours. The only case you ever made on him was on his FIRST FOUR POSTS.

The second reason is clearly an adjustment for the fact that I actually had a case. And as we know

neither the amount of posts it is based on, or the time the case was made

invalidates a case. The fact that Dana needed to adjust to something not voteworthy and that he waited so long to finally give reasons for his vote, means that these weren't reasons.

these were excuses. Dana's vote was scummy.

recommend vig target because I like my vote on LMP: Dana

[kunkstar7]

:: VoteCount 2x2 ::

Antihero (0) -
MagnaofIllusion (0) -

RedCoyote (0) -

danakillsu (0) -

LynchMePls (2) -

mykonian, MagnaofIllusion

XScorpion (0) -

Stef (2) -

Antihero, RedCoyote

drmyshottyizsik (1) -

Xscorpion

mykonian (2) -

danakillsu, drmyshottyizsik

Not Voting (2) -

LynchMePls, Stef

With 9 Alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Deadline is October 9, 2010 7:00pm EST.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Bad vote MoI.

@MoI: What is your read of mykonian?

Way to take that out of context. This was after DP claimed goon, so based on their interactions, I thought Jack might be scum. Since DP was clearly lying, that changes things.

Earlier you claimed that you didn't like my play because it fit with my "scum-meta". What about this case you just made fits with my scum meta?

These three quick responses don’t make me think my suspicions are misplaced in the least.

1. Claim my vote is bad with no support as to why. Then attempts to deflect attention to mykonian.
2. Could you explain how DP’s claim of Goon in any way erased your previous statements (which as I stated I didn’t see really any support for) that Jack was Town?
3. Translation – I can’t dispute the points about my lack of scum-hunting, poorly supported vote hoping and other scummy play so please prove MORE to me.

Your play as scummy is pretty much self-explanatory. IMO, the burden is on you to demonstrate why my case isn’t solid.

[mykonian]

Awesome case magna.

[LimMePls]

Bad vote MoI.

@MoI: What is your read of mykonian?

Way to take that out of context. This was after DP claimed goon, so based on their interactions, I thought Jack might be scum. Since DP was clearly lying, that changes things.

Earlier you claimed that you didn't like my play because it fit with my "scum-meta". What about this case you just made fits with my scum meta?

These three quick responses don’t make me think my suspicions are misplaced in the least.

1. Claim my vote is bad with no support as to why. Then attempts to deflect attention to mykonian.
2. Could you explain how DP’s claim of Goon in any way erased your previous statements (which as I stated I didn’t see really any support for) that Jack was Town?
3. Translation – I can’t dispute the points about my lack of scum-hunting, poorly supported vote hoping and other scummy play so please prove MORE to me.

Your play as scummy is pretty much self-explanatory. IMO, the burden is on you to demonstrate why my case isn’t solid.

But now you claim that my play is scummy by itself. Earlier you claimed it was based on meta. Yet you provide no meta to support your claim. If you ask me I don't think my play this game looks anything even CLOSE to what my scum games look like. Granted I'm biased, but I'd love for others to go read my scum games (they're in the wki) because I call BS that your suspicions of me come from meta.

DP and Jack's interactions looked scummish to me. DP called Jack obv-town multiple times in the game, then suddenly out of the blue he switched to calling Jack scummy. When DP claimed goon, I thought that it made Jack more likely to be scum. Thus I thought Jack's attempt to confirm Stef was a scum gambit. I thought Jack should be vigged. The reason I thought Jack should be vigged was because if he flipped scum then "YEAH!". If he flipped what he claimed, then we have a confirmed townie out of Stef. Thus win win.

DP flipping town of course makes all of that ridiculous, but I can't for the life of me understand why town would claim scum like that. It is playing against your win-condition, since it made the little twilight time we had left completely worthless. I'd never seen a townie do that. In fact, aren't you the one who told us it might be a town flip anyways...

I'll wait until the flip before I celebrate ...

I've seen fake-scum claims before from the certain type of player that David Parker represents so well.

Did you have more information than the rest of us? Why were you so sure he wouldn't actually flip scum? And I know you saw all of these interactions, so why are you trying to paint my "vig Jack" statement in a different light?

[LimMePls]

Ok, I was just ISOing MoI, because I can't figure out if he is opportunistic scum or town that genuinely thinks I'm scum, but I saw this quote in his second to last post:

And MoI, you have been suspecting LMP for meta reasons for some time now. I've heard today that LMP can be quite good as town. He clearly isn't here. I believe you are town, and have good itentions, and the addition of the above points against him, I think a LMP wagon might very well a succesful one. I would ask you not to hesitate, and join the LMP wagon.

First off, look at my town record. Its pretty bad. I've had a couple of good town games, but I've had some really bad ones too. I can scum hunt bad scum, but I'm pretty bad at finding scum that are even half-way decent players. I'm flawless as scum so far, I've never even been lynched. Where did you "hear today" that I was "quite good" as town. Both of my recent town games have ended in losses, and in both of them I was left to endgame because I wasn't even close to catching the real scum.

I think mykonian needs to be lynched. I'd like to point out Jack's observations from mykonian's scum chat in another game. mykonian is quite good at taking apart cases on him, and I've seen that tactic deployed successfully. I'll grant that if I was playing better I would have made a better case yesterday, and the "I won't let you manipulate me" is not the best town statement ever, but my gut tells me mykonian is scum, and I didn't want to get into a word game with him.

Lastly, why is he so eager to get MoI onboard with him? I've never seen a more blatantly scummy buddying up in my life.

Vote: mykonian

[danakillsu]

I do not like Lynchmepls's posts at all, and would be willing to lynch him if the mykonian wagon does not go anywhere. But as is my custom, I am not going to make a case on Lynch until the proper time.

[LimMePls]

You don't even have a case.

don't panic too much. Phate. It takes quite some time to get me lynched here. As long as I can keep CSL satisfied with bandwagons to hop on, fishy doesn't get replaced, I should be fine. There are a lot of people putting me in their lists, but the reason that there hasn't been a serious wagon against me the last day, is because there is simply no case.

This. This was the feeling I was getting from mykonian when he demanded a case from me. The fact is that I was getting scummy vibes, but it was mostly gut, and I didn't like how I felt his change from obv-town Jack to scum Jack happened so fast. Some have pointed out that his "obv-town Jack" post was the beginning of D1, but remember that I replaced into this game, so for me it all happened really quickly. I'll admit after that was pointed out that it was true that more time had passed between the two than I realized at first, but it still seemed convenient to me that his read of Jack was purely tactical. He was obv-town early, but the moment Jack expresses a negative opinion of him he is SCUM.

[RedCoyote]

Ugh, I don't like where this game is heading. Magna's case seems fair enough, but I still get townie vibes from LynchMePls. I know I didn't have a problem with him the entirety of D1, so I have to be missing something here. These two things cannot be compatible.

Also mykonian's got me thinking about moon corporations or something, so I'm totally confused. Magna's playstyle is very, I don't know, historic? How much success do you have with this, Magna? It's not something I'm accustomed to seeing. I'm always weary of people who do a post-by-post analysis and wind up finding a way to make every post scummy. If you're going to go back and reread someone you think is scummy, there's always that fear of confirmation bias seeping in.

[Stef]

Posting today.

[mykonian]

Ok, I was just ISOing MoI, because I can't figure out if he is opportunistic scum or town that genuinely thinks I'm scum, but I saw this quote in his second to last post:

Nobody can be opportunistic if their isn't yet a chance on you. MoI leads your wagon. This is terrible.

First off, look at my town record. Its pretty bad. I've had a couple of good town games, but I've had some really bad ones too. I can scum hunt bad scum, but I'm pretty bad at finding scum that are even half-way decent players. I'm flawless as scum so far, I've never even been lynched. Where did you "hear today" that I was "quite good" as town.

Scummies thread.

I think mykonian needs to be lynched. I'd like to point out Jack's observations from mykonian's scum chat in another game. mykonian is quite good at taking apart cases on him, and I've seen that tactic deployed successfully. I'll grant that if I was playing better I would have made a better case yesterday, and the "I won't let you manipulate me" is not the best town statement ever, but my gut tells me mykonian is scum, and I didn't want to get into a word game with him.

OMGUS. Mykonian has never been good at taking apart cases. Mykonian usually gets lynched for cases that aren't true.

Saying that somebody needs to be lynched because he would tear apart your terribly weak cases is horrible

.

Lastly, why is he so eager to get MoI onboard with him? I've never seen a more blatantly scummy buddying up in my life.

Because I want to see you lynched, scum.

Just understand this. LMP hasn't defended against

any

of the key points of his case.

His quoting out of context (using a RVS statement to prove I was inconsistent)

I dunno, but hopping right back to RC without any scum hunting inbetween seems like a pretty poor choice.

I think this quote is telling. Read his ISO to this point. He really hasn’t scum-hunted at all. His initial vote is for Stef based on his initial read in. Does not pursue Stef with questions or observations. Mixes it up with dana pretty much solely on how he answered a theoretical question from HC. When Stef is ‘cleared’ immediately jumps to dana and delivers the above stinger.

Interesting how mykonian suddenly thinks Jack's play isn't Jack-town, but earlier in the thread he seemed to like Jack's play fine. The only thing I see different is that Jack is now calling mykonian scum.

Now, his reason for this is simply untrue, if he has to quote a post in the RVS to prove that I thought Jack was town.

Then we have his post at the start of this day where he "bandwagons". After MoI and Xscorpion stating a dislike for the stef votes, LMP absolutely hates them.

But doesn't act on it at all. He's going with the flow.

[mykonian]

Scum
Lynchme (terrible end d1 case on me)

1) I do not concede it was terrible.
2) Town can't make bad cases? What about it in particular was scummy?

I also want you to remember this post. What would a townie do if his case was called terrible?

He would check the reasons and then either argue why his case was ok, or give in and agree. He would then start with some new scumhunting.

What would scum do?

Scum would try to survive. Avoid that the person actually proves that the case is terrible and makes him look bad.

Lynchme takes the second approach two times in this quote. First he "doesn't concede that it was terrible". But doesn't react on the point against it. It's meaningless. Second, even if it was a bad case (so he doesn't really believe his first statement), he isn't to blame! Because townies can make bad cases too, right!? Classic scum. LMP tries to avoid accountability for what he did.


And then, I miss the scumhunting. Actually, LMP waits with voting untill he gets under some pressure, and then votes the player who's attacking him that had already the most votes.

[Antihero]

I hate those votes. Absolutely terrible.

mykonian has a point. The beginning of D2 Stef votes are terrible, but my Stef vote+case at the very end of D1 wasn't? What changed?

[mykonian]

Antihero, we'll get stef later, I think. I won't support you until LMP is lynched. So unless you think you can get enough other players on the Stef wagon, I think you need to do further scumhunting to come with something new that might pull players to you.

Red: if you had to give a read of me now, would it be town, almost town, meh, almost scum, or scum?

[mykonian]

BUMP

[danakillsu]

I think it's pretty much guaranteed from their interactions that one, but not both, of mykonian and LMP is scum.

[RedCoyote]

Red: if you had to give a read of me now, would it be town, almost town, meh, almost scum, or scum?

I feel good about you, mykonian. Actually I should probably throw out a scumscale pretty soon.

I haven't forgotten about this game though. Either tomorrow or the day after I want to take some time to really dig into Magna/mykonian v.s. LynchMePls.

---

I think it's pretty much guaranteed from their interactions that one, but not both, of mykonian and LMP is scum.

I think those are some pretty absolute terms, dana. I really don't like the way this comment is phrased.

[mykonian]

I think it's pretty much guaranteed from their interactions that one, but not both, of mykonian and LMP is scum.

Lol, ok. It is quite clear that I'm not scum with LMP. However, I have made such cases about more players.

I'm not scum with stef.
I'm not scum with dana.

BUUUUT this time Dana chooses to make such a post. While I just made a case against him, he tries to make certain that only the myko and the LMP wagon are the ones that could go for a lynch. (this is the "that one is scum part". Such reads don't exist. There are no tells for it).

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Antihero, XScorp, Stef and Shotty – you all are lurking and not providing content. This needs to end stat!

But now you claim that my play is scummy by itself. Earlier you claimed it was based on meta. Yet you provide no meta to support your claim. If you ask me I don't think my play this game looks anything even CLOSE to what my scum games look like. Granted I'm biased, but I'd love for others to go read my scum games (they're in the wki) because I call BS that your suspicions of me come from meta.

Everyone take close notice to what LMP is doing here. He is once again desperately attempting to shift the focus from his scummy play by any means necessary.

Fact – I’ve stated that your play was reminding me of your scum games.
Fact – This pushes me to review your ISO.
Fact – I find that as a whole your ISO is riddled with scummy play and thus make a case and vote for you.

None of these series of facts obligates me to cross reference directly with scum games of yours.

Once again you aren’t arguing against the facts I laid out in the ISO. You are pulling the classic move of ‘Attack the Attacker’ as opposed to pointing out weakness in the case. All you are doing is asking for more when the proof of your scummy play has already been laid out for scrutiny.

DP and Jack's interactions looked scummish to me. DP called Jack obv-town multiple times in the game, then suddenly out of the blue he switched to calling Jack scummy. When DP claimed goon, I thought that it made Jack more likely to be scum. Thus I thought Jack's attempt to confirm Stef was a scum gambit. I thought Jack should be vigged. The reason I thought Jack should be vigged was because if he flipped scum then "YEAH!". If he flipped what he claimed, then we have a confirmed townie out of Stef. Thus win win.

Firstly you are only describing DP’s statements towards Jack. For their interactions to look scummy I’d expect to see indications of where Jack’s statements toward DP were scummy. Because otherwise you might have fallen for buddying on scum’s part towards a Town player.

Vigging a player who is Town to confirm another Town player isn’t a sound strategy given that the confirmed player likely could die in the Night thus robbing you of any potential advantage. So it’s certainly not Win-Win.

Did you have more information than the rest of us? Why were you so sure he wouldn't actually flip scum? And I know you saw all of these interactions, so why are you trying to paint my "vig Jack" statement in a different light?

Another classic scummy move. This entire statement is a soft attempt to infer that I’m scum without being bold enough to directly say it.

1. I’ve seen VI players do that exact same thing before. It usually happens in Newbie but it’s a classic trolling VI move. DP falls in that category for me.
2. Please explain how I was ‘so sure’ of his flip. Because the statement “I’ll wait until the flip before I celebrate” is a far cry from saying “He’s Town who stupidly fake-claimed”
3. Your Vig Jack comment is scummy, as I explained before. Your responses so far don’t change that thought in my mind.

Ok, I was just ISOing MoI, because I can't figure out if he is opportunistic scum or town that genuinely thinks I'm scum, but I saw this quote in his second to last post:

Here’s a hint – I’m Town that thinks you are scum. The fact that I can’t be opportunistic scum simply because I actually built a supporting case and was the second vote on you seems to elude you.

Magna's playstyle is very, I don't know, historic? How much success do you have with this, Magna? It's not something I'm accustomed to seeing. I'm always weary of people who do a post-by-post analysis and wind up finding a way to make every post scummy. If you're going to go back and reread someone you think is scummy, there's always that fear of confirmation bias seeping in.

I’m not sure exactly what you mean by historic. I’d like you to define success in this context. Is success Town W-L record? Is success finding scum and being NKed very early based on that reputation? I think my playstyle is successful but I need to know your benchmarks before I answer your question.

If you don’t like PBPA that’s your call. I personal dislike non-supported, gut based play. I'm not going to change my playstyle to suit others.

Overall this post looks more like it belongs in Mafia Discussion than here.

I think it's pretty much guaranteed from their interactions that one, but not both, of mykonian and LMP is scum.

This is a false dichotomy statement that I would expect to see from scum wanting to set-up a future mislynch. A scum who knows mykonian and LMP are Town would definitely want to foster the impression that once one of them flips Town the other should be immediately lynched.

IGMEOY Dana.

That said at this point I’m fairly sure that LMP is scum and about to lose his perfect record of not being lynched.

More votes on LMP please!!!!