Mini 1040 - Everyone's A Critic! [Game Over]

[danakillsu]

Okay, fine. Cliff's Notes of why RC is scum
Things don't really get started until iso 5
5: After voting me originally because I had not posted content, he keeps his vote on me after I have posted content. Why? Because I'm supposedly afraid of expressing my opinion on events. Well if you look at the post he linked to, expressing my opinion on current, important events is all I've done. One of the major points in his case at this moment is that I called Jack town based on meta/gut. Another is that I unvoted and voted him (which was because the mod did not include my vote in the votecount)
6: Confirms his vote on me, saying he's sure of himself, and discounts my posts as ignoring most of the game (without quoting any of my posts of course)
8: Says "if he had to guess" that he'd guess I was not town. Obviously not as sure of himself as he was.
9: Quotes four of my posts.
a) ignores most of my post and does little besides basic contradiction of the part he doesn't ignore
b) blatant misrep and exaggeration (as I already pointed out)
c) calls my simple, unadulterated statement of truth "pouting" for some reason
d) blatant misrep and exaggeration
12: Obvious and unnecessary condescension
There you go.

[LimMePls]

Okay, fine. Cliff's Notes of why RC is scum
Things don't really get started until iso 5
5: After voting me originally because I had not posted content, he keeps his vote on me after I have posted content. Why? Because I'm supposedly afraid of expressing my opinion on events. Well if you look at the post he linked to, expressing my opinion on current, important events is all I've done. One of the major points in his case at this moment is that I called Jack town based on meta/gut. Another is that I unvoted and voted him (which was because the mod did not include my vote in the votecount)
6: Confirms his vote on me, saying he's sure of himself, and discounts my posts as ignoring most of the game (without quoting any of my posts of course)
8: Says "if he had to guess" that he'd guess I was not town. Obviously not as sure of himself as he was.
9: Quotes four of my posts.
a) ignores most of my post and does little besides basic contradiction of the part he doesn't ignore
b) blatant misrep and exaggeration (as I already pointed out)
c) calls my simple, unadulterated statement of truth "pouting" for some reason
d) blatant misrep and exaggeration
12: Obvious and unnecessary condescension
There you go.

Except for the misrep, pretty much all of this could be town behavior. Where are the scum tells? Please quote the misreps too.

[kunkstar7]

:: VoteCount 1x11 ::

Antihero (0) -
MagnaofIllusion (0) -

RedCoyote (1) -

danakillsu

danakillsu (3) -

DavidParker, LynchMePls, Stef

Jack (0) -

Haschel Cedricson (1) -

imaginality

LynchMePls (0) -

XScorpion (0) -

Stef (3) -

Haschel Cedricson, Antihero, mykonian

imaginality (0) -

mykonian (1) -

Jack

DavidParker (3) -

MagnaOfIllusion, Xscorpion, RedCoyote

Not Voting (0) -

With 12 Alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

September 19, 2010 5:00PM EST.

[RedCoyote]

RedCoyote, can you elaborate on your thoughts about Jack's claim?

Well, sir, I don't like it. I don't like the way he's come out, and I don't like his inattention to the game. I agree with mykonian in the sense that I doubt this is some tactic of Jack trying to save his buddy, but something fishy is going on here. Theoretically, there shouldn't be anything keeping Jack from getting into this game. There have only been the need for a couple of replacements, and LynchMePls has done a great job.

---

Well if you look at the post he linked to, expressing my opinion on current, important events is all I've done.

That's a lie. You've effectively had nothing to say about this game that isn't "I agree with X" or "RC is scum". I asked you calmly, reasonably, and respectfully (but firmly) to elaborate on more than this, but you're clearly scared to do so (either because you're scared of being wrong or you're deliberately being obstinate). HC bent over backwards to get you to give us more than you have, and you just stonewalled him.

Although, admittedly, you are making progress here. Earlier you were writing off my vote as "gut", but now you've seemed to finally acknowledge my real reason for voting you.

9: Quotes four of my posts.
a) ignores most of my post and does little besides basic contradiction of the part he doesn't ignore
b) blatant misrep and exaggeration (as I already pointed out)
c) calls my simple, unadulterated statement of truth "pouting" for some reason
d) blatant misrep and exaggeration
12: Obvious and unnecessary condescension

You really need to step back and get a little perspective on this game. You're refusing to look at this game objectively. This sort of victim mentality will get you nowhere. I've tried to be as fair as I can, but I'm not going to handle you with kid's gloves. Not everyone who suspects you is scum, and not everyone who ignores you (Jack, XScorp, Antihero) is town. You won't feel as patronized when you learn to start keeping your feelings in check and start thinking about the game rationally.

I feel like, not just I, but we, as a town, have to work extra hard to analyze you due to your stubbornness. It's taking a lot out of me to have to sit back and think about whether or not you're really just this proud.

[mykonian]

The argument that pressure is better added by prods than votes is a weak one imho. Prods can make people post. Votes make people post content.

If they aren't posting, then you aren't gonna get content anyway.
Mykonian, if you believe the claim, why are you still voting Stef?

because I don't yet have any idea who I should vote for. Both my case (+vote) on dana and Jack were mostly of an investigative nature. Only my gutread on Haschel remains, and I don't want to vote on that. Before I'll reread (tonight), I have a few questions for Jack.

seen that you have revealed your role, I am confused by your play. While it would be logical to make this information a starting point for a reasoning that reveals your read on the game, you only vote on a gut-read.

This certainly isn't part of your "experiment", as that was remaining observant and on a certain moment revealing the information you got. What you show now, is that you don't have information (you vote on a gutread with no real base). So, I'd like some real information from you. Did your experiment fail and are you resuming normal play now, or did you actually get something from your experiment. Please post that if you have it.

[danakillsu]

Well if you look at the post he linked to, expressing my opinion on current, important events is all I've done.

That's a lie. You've effectively had nothing to say about this game that isn't "I agree with X" or "RC is scum". I asked you calmly, reasonably, and respectfully (but firmly) to elaborate on more than this, but you're clearly scared to do so (either because you're scared of being wrong or you're deliberately being obstinate). HC bent over backwards to get you to give us more than you have, and you just stonewalled him.

Although, admittedly, you are making progress here. Earlier you were writing off my vote as "gut", but now you've seemed to finally acknowledge my real reason for voting you.

9: Quotes four of my posts.
a) ignores most of my post and does little besides basic contradiction of the part he doesn't ignore
b) blatant misrep and exaggeration (as I already pointed out)
c) calls my simple, unadulterated statement of truth "pouting" for some reason
d) blatant misrep and exaggeration
12: Obvious and unnecessary condescension

You really need to step back and get a little perspective on this game. You're refusing to look at this game objectively. This sort of victim mentality will get you nowhere. I've tried to be as fair as I can, but I'm not going to handle you with kid's gloves. Not everyone who suspects you is scum, and not everyone who ignores you (Jack, XScorp, Antihero) is town. You won't feel as patronized when you learn to start keeping your feelings in check and start thinking about the game rationally.

I feel like, not just I, but we, as a town, have to work extra hard to analyze you due to your stubbornness. It's taking a lot out of me to have to sit back and think about whether or not you're really just this proud.

Lulz at first part saying I haven't done anything besides agreeing with others and saying RC is scum. It's just obviously not true, and it wouldn't take me long to prove it, so I'll get on it.
Lulz at second part exaggerating my position on other players again. I never said anyone besides you and Stef was scum and apparently Stef isn't. I never said anyone besides Jack was town. Where those people are in relation to me is not important to me.
And I don't understand the whole "victim mentality" "not going to handle you with kid gloves" crap. I've never expected you to do anything of the kind, I've only expected you to actually deal with what I'm saying about you, not just say "oh, I'm being so fair and nice toward you" or "keep your feelings in check" or "you can't say anything but that I'm scum". If you're really trying to think about this game rationally, analyse me, etc., then why can't you actually address all of my points instead of cherry-picking the parts you think are wrong/scummy? I have done my utmost to do this with you.

[danakillsu]

My iso Posts 5, 6, 8, 11, 14, 25, and 30 have little or nothing to do with RC and express my opinions on current events. Other posts have parts in them that do the same. That's plenty of material on people and events that don't directly involve RC. Of course a lot of my posts would mention him, though, because he's my number one scum candidate.

[LimMePls]

326 still waiting for those misrep quotes.

[danakillsu]

Dang you, LMP, this is by no means ending up as Cliff's Notes. This is more like an exegetical discussion. But if I must, I must.
His iso 9:

Note

: This post is way too big. I'm sorry. Everyone gave me a confidence boost earlier and that gets my juices flowing.

tl;dr = Thanks LynchMePls, believe your claim atm. XScorp bad then good. David bad. MoI good. dana still the worst. Countering antihero.

---

Unless there are actually 3 scum, in which case he is simply misleading town.

Oh, I had been meaning to bring up that I'm not of fan of your posting like this, you know, this Jack-style of one liners. It works for Jack (although this game is not the best example) because he votes a lot and makes his opinions clear and controversial. Here you're just kind of drifting. I mean, this entire post is just, like, captain obvious.

---

For going after an "easy" target (me), and 10 pages in having his vote on someone (me) who hasn't even noticed it's been on him til now because of my absence from the game.

I almost feel like I should've never opened my big mouth about "easy" targets, meta, and what have you. I never meant for it to be used by others as a defense mechanism or counterattack. In all honesty, it doesn't matter if you are an "easy" lynch or a "hard" lynch. The scum selection is random all the same. While there is merit to the idea that scum will try for a lynch they think they can get away with, that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone voting or playing the game is thinking in this mindset.

Anyways, it probably goes without saying that I don't really care for this vote.

---

So....gut.

Sigh. If that's all your going to take from me, then so be it. I'm trying to speak with you reasonably and calmly. I think you know that I'm not voting you out of gut. I think you feel good about my townie credentials. Regardless, you're clinging stubbornly to your position. Is it out of pride or scum desperation?

I'll tell you right now I'll take your lynch to the bank if you keep it up. It's day 1, and no one here, I don't think, is going to stick their neck out for you. This probably sounds more condescending than I mean it to be, but, hell, it's the truth. It's how I really feel. I'm not going to sugarcoat it for you or anyone else here. You're either being stubborn or being desperate, and I don't have the time or patience to hold your hand. If you are a townie then you'll have to work up the courage to see my point of view. I'm not going to roll over for, "gut! gut! gut!".

David disappoints me as well, but seems quite town.
@ David and Stef
What more does it take to convince you that RC is scum?

Let me translate this post for you guys:

David could be town or scum.
RC is scum, don't you guys agree?

Again, not engaging David. Not engaging anyone. Not explaining his mindset. Not caring. Not town.

This is misrep because I didn't say he could be town or scum, I said he seemed town, but disappointing, as in a VI, which DP is known to be. And I didn't ask for their agreement, I just asked what it would take to believe that RC is scum that they don't already have. I did engage David, I did engage Stef, I did explain my mindset, I cared, and I am town

---

When I feel I have a good enough lock on the third scum I will post my reads, and choose a town seeming player (if there is one interested) to debate them with.

Let me know when you're ready.

A similar point I want to bring up, since it's on my mind, is I hope HC gets to get his hands dirty some. He's been asking some questions, but I want him to draw some conclusions as well. mykonian, Stef, and, to an extent, MoI seem like the only other people to have really stepped up in the offense department.

---

I'd like to do two things:

Claim: Miller

Hey LynchMePls, glad that I get to play with you. I know you'll stick around. I feel okay about this Miller claim immediately, but I am going to go back through jelly's posts and see if I can find anything. I look forward to hearing more from you, but I think this is a good start.

---

How often have you guys seen mafia claim miller? Just curious.

Hoopla did it to me and got away with it. I felt sketchy about it for a while but I never acted on it. Eventually I accepted it and the game turned out being a perfect scum game.

Regardless, I like this post a lot better than the post I responded to earlier.

---

This is a really crappy vote, considering imaginality only posted once and hasn't posted elsewhere on this site while ignoring this game.

I disagree. He needs to be pressured. imaginality knows better; if he's busy then he should replace out.

Plus it's better than voting me.

---

That’s right. You take Antihero off your scum list but don’t even bother to move it to Xscorpian or RedCoyote who you say are scum.

This is a good point. David kind of dug himself into a hole over that list. He has to do one of two things, I think, either explain how that list has changed significantly (although he has explained me a little, he hasn't really addressed XScorp I don't think... maybe he can prove me wrong) or he has to concede that his list was not well thought out. Either way he's going to come out not looking too hot.

---

Whatever. It will be town's loss to lynch me, so you're hurting yourselves as much as me.

If that's going to be your attitude, then maybe mafia isn't the game for you. I don't want to be cruel, but I can't stand this. Get a thicker skin and play the game. We all get voted for reasons we don't agree with. Tough. You deal with it and press on. And you try to call me out for AtE? Maybe you should practice what you preach. This isn't personal, dana. I'm trying to find scum. Pouting about it isn't doing either of us good.

Shoot him. He's a possible scumbuddy to RC from his strange statement that his posting has improved and his wishy-washiness over him. He's not scummy for things he's done, just by connection to RC, but you could definitely do worse for an NK.

I hate how this post starts off great, but then dana neuters it before he can even get going. I'll even stomach the "Stef and RC seem like scumbuddies" if he actually had the courage to take a stand about something in this game. Instead of saying, "HC, you know what, you bring up a good point. Stef (or, hell, insert whatever name you want), I don't like this, this, and this. Explain what you mean here. Why do you think this about this?", he chickens out. "Well, I don't know, Stef isn't scummy for anything he's doing... he's a perfect player. No one is scummy... I have no other reads... Poor me..."

This is misrep because I didn't say Stef was a perfect player, didn't say no one else was scummy, didn't say I had no other reads, didn't say "poor me" in any way.

There you go.

[LimMePls]

^^This post is self-serving garbage. I pretty much disagree with every "misrep" you claim RC has made. Here is an example:

didn't say I had no other reads, didn't say "poor me" in any way.

Whatever. It will be town's loss to lynch me, so you're hurting yourselves as much as me.

That sounds like "poor me" to me. Do you consider it a "misrep" if he doesn't quote you word for word?

I agree with RC's observation on that last quote, about how it started great and then went straight downhill.

[Stef]

Why are you quoting out of context? It's obvious from the entire post you quoted that I voted for him because he was voting for RC (i.e. saw that he was scummy just like I did) then unvoted seemingly because no one immediately joined the wagon (although he would never admit it) and refused to answer my question to him about RC's posting.
I have played with DP before, so it's a mix of meta and gut.

So you voted for me because I got off the wagon when it got no support but you preferred to unvote him and voted for me because the RC wagon wasn't getting enough support?

I am not seeing the case dana is presenting against RC. Still my best bet for today.


DP is conveniently laying low.

DP

, what is your opinion on Dana's RC case?

Mod: prod Antihero please

[RedCoyote]

I don't know why dana had to quote that entire post if he was just responding to two points.

I agree with Stef, where is big David?

I think it's about time to get a lynch going. Jack needs to get out of this game or play it. Most of the players need to give us more (XScorp, Antihero, David, MoI, HC, imaginality's replacement...). There is plenty to talk about, and if you don't want to talk about what's currently going on, then get in here and make something new.

I'm also going to start helping the Mod advertise for a replacement because we've effectively heard zero from that player slot.

[mykonian]

NO.

RC, if you are ever going to replace someone in your game for "lurking", while that player did post before he was prodded etc. I'm never going to enter your games. This would be mod involvement. A force replacement should never be used for something like this.

And now as a player, you are odd. We have a vig here. We don't even have to lynch him. If he is lurking, that is classic Jack-scum (just read his previous scumgames). Which is exactly why I'm pressing him for some serious content, that he has been promising.



Now, for my reread. I far from finished it yesterday. Here is what I got till then.

A few observations, assuming Stef is town.

Jack didn't have role information that told him scum had to be with 2

The Stefwagon is going very slow, esspecially with someone very much pushing it (me). Scum obviously didn't massively support it.

Of the people joining the Stefwagon, Haschel seems uncertain.

Hey danakillsu, what do you think of Mykonian's play?

I disagree with your handling of the XScorpion wagon (and this isn't OMGUS; I would have asked these questions regardless of who the first XScorpion voter was), but your clarifications make sense and I don't think you're scummy. I'm particularly intrigued by post 11 and think it's an interesting point. For now, you check out.

Post 80 is also really good.

Unvote, Vote: Stef

I have a meeting with my wedding caterer, so no more from me until later this evening.

Stefs vote on Scorpion was made before these 2 posts. Haschel seems like a player who prefers to see which way the argument will go, before he votes (except he was forced to take a stance earlier then he wanted).

Overall I have a null read on mykonian. I think his confidence in his reads at this point is somewhat scummy, but is balanced out by his good use of logic and his willingness to post a lot of confidence. I think RedCoyote's vote of me is scummy as well. Just because I didn't have time to post when everyone else did doesn't make me scum. And yes, I am almost always an easy lynch.

unvote vote: RedCoyote

Don't you dare call that blatant OMGUS. It's the scummiest vote so far

And this is acknowledging the case but definately staying off the Stef wagon. This with the preemptive defense against an OMGUS argument against him makes this quite a scummy vote.

In a way, this can be said for Scorpions vote on Jack. It is useless. However, assuming that Stef is town, the move off the Stef wagon would be weird. Which means, however useless you were, scorp, you are town.

[RedCoyote]

imaginality asked for a replacement.

Are you talking about Jack? Well, yeah, it would be nice to have someone who actually spoke to us. I don't want the Mod to force replace Jack; I want Jack to excuse himself. Hence, he needs to play or get out.

[danakillsu]

^^This post is self-serving garbage. I pretty much disagree with every "misrep" you claim RC has made. Here is an example:

didn't say I had no other reads, didn't say "poor me" in any way.

Whatever. It will be town's loss to lynch me, so you're hurting yourselves as much as me.

That sounds like "poor me" to me. Do you consider it a "misrep" if he doesn't quote you word for word?

I agree with RC's observation on that last quote, about how it started great and then went straight downhill.

What? Why are you quoting a different post to talk about this poor me thing? The misrep that he performed was not on the above quoted post. I was saying that he was misrepping a specific post, not saying something totally untrue about me in general.

[danakillsu]

Why are you quoting out of context? It's obvious from the entire post you quoted that I voted for him because he was voting for RC (i.e. saw that he was scummy just like I did) then unvoted seemingly because no one immediately joined the wagon (although he would never admit it) and refused to answer my question to him about RC's posting.
I have played with DP before, so it's a mix of meta and gut.

So you voted for me because I got off the wagon when it got no support but you preferred to unvote him and voted for me because the RC wagon wasn't getting enough support?

I am not seeing the case dana is presenting against RC. Still my best bet for today.


DP is conveniently laying low.

DP

, what is your opinion on Dana's RC case?

Mod: prod Antihero please

Um...no. I'm voting for you because you got off the wagon because you thought RC's posts had become more townie. And when I asked you how they were more townie and what it would take for you to believe he was scum, you didn't answer. This has nothing to do with how much support you were getting. And this all conveniently ignores the fact that I was voting for RC at the same time, so it wasn't just you.

[danakillsu]

And this is acknowledging the case but definately staying off the Stef wagon. This with the preemptive defense against an OMGUS argument against him makes this quite a scummy vote.

What does your quoted post have to do with the Stef wagon? And why does simply saying that my vote wasn't just OMGUS make it a scummy vote?

[Antihero]

Sorry forgot about this game.

Will post this afternoon.

[mykonian]

imaginality asked for a replacement.

Are you talking about Jack? Well, yeah, it would be nice to have someone who actually spoke to us. I don't want the Mod to force replace Jack; I want Jack to excuse himself. Hence, he needs to play or get out.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

Mod. In case you have trouble finding replacements, maybe this advice will help. Find in finished games, MD, GD etc. if there are players that would enjoy playing with us, or would enjoy the kind of game we have. If you find such a player, pm him, show him the game and explain why he might like to play in it. With decent research, it shouldn't take more then 3 pm's to find someone

And this is acknowledging the case but definately staying off the Stef wagon. This with the preemptive defense against an OMGUS argument against him makes this quite a scummy vote.

What does your quoted post have to do with the Stef wagon? And why does simply saying that my vote wasn't just OMGUS make it a scummy vote?

I really have to spell it out to you right?

"Overall I have a null read on mykonian. I think his confidence in his reads at this point is somewhat scummy, but is balanced out by his good use of logic and his willingness to post a lot of confidence." This shows you read what I posted (on Stef), but choose to do nothing about it.

Then, being so cautious and aware of how you are seen that you preemptively defend against an OMGUS accusation is scummy. Town would
a. make a case good enough so he doesn't have to worry about how the vote is seen
b. won't worry regardless about how his vote is seen as long as he believes it is on scum.

~Thanks for the advice, hopefully I can get a replacement in here soon.

[danakillsu]

Then, being so cautious and aware of how you are seen that you preemptively defend against an OMGUS accusation is scummy. Town would
a. make a case good enough so he doesn't have to worry about how the vote is seen
b. won't worry regardless about how his vote is seen as long as he believes it is on scum.

I was aware that some people would be willing to construe my vote as something it was not: OMGUS. I was not remotely "worried" about how my vote would be seen, I was just pointing out that there was a way it should not be seen. And it does not reflect on the case I made at all. I've seen this stupid argument made many times, and it is really frustrating, since people either call it OMGUS, which it isn't, or say that my telling them not to call it OMGUS is scummy. But since I'm town, I'm not worried about how you view that, either, am I?

[LimMePls]

^^This post is self-serving garbage. I pretty much disagree with every "misrep" you claim RC has made. Here is an example:

didn't say I had no other reads, didn't say "poor me" in any way.

Whatever. It will be town's loss to lynch me, so you're hurting yourselves as much as me.

That sounds like "poor me" to me. Do you consider it a "misrep" if he doesn't quote you word for word?

I agree with RC's observation on that last quote, about how it started great and then went straight downhill.

What? Why are you quoting a different post to talk about this poor me thing? The misrep that he performed was not on the above quoted post. I was saying that he was misrepping a specific post, not saying something totally untrue about me in general.

I'm thoroughly confused at what you are saying. You quoted one giant wall of a post, and you inject thoughts into it. Were they somehow separate posts?

[danakillsu]

Look, he said I was all "poor me" in 259. Then, to counter that, you quote 257. I'm saying that's not applicable, because it's a different post. I said he misrepped 259, not 257.

[Jack]

Not feeling like mafia at the moment, bear with me, it comes and goes.

dana is a bad lynch.

Mykonian should be the lynch, antihero 2nd choice.

[RedCoyote]

I'd be willing to spare dana, but I just do not see mykonian as scum.

I really don't see Antihero either. I mean, unless your gut's pinging them or something, they both seem townie to me.

I'm not saying they're both definitely town in any way; I'm not naive enough to think that the scum can't trick me. Still, I would not be happy with either of these players as our D1 lynch.

I don't know what to tell you, Jack. I hope you get that feeling back soon.

[DavidParker]

Vote: mykonian