Open 143: Jungle Republic (Game Over!) before 787

[dejkha]

confirm

[dejkha]

Do you think it's scummy to say that an RVS shouldn't be conducted? What would you prefer as an alternative? Do any of you have interesting meta on other players?

Not necessarily. It could be a good alternative, since it may stir up discussion. I have a meta on Emp and Zwet. They both suck and should be lynched right off the bat, IMO. That doesn't keep me from discussing others behavior. But I'll "random" vote anyway.

Vote: Emp

[dejkha]

vote: AA23

So is that a for or against RVS or are you just buddying right from the start?

Is that a random vote or because it sounds like he's buddying to you?

[dejkha]

@Dej- For those of us who have never played with them before, explain why they're worth votes, that is, Empking and Zwet.

Because they don't help town, they distract town away from our primary objective of finding scum by getting into arguments that won't back down from, and refuse to listen to reason. It's this playstyle that people know about and don't lynch them right away because you can never get an accurate read on them no matter what. Emp has always been that way, but Zwet wasn't always as bad. In fact, he's actively trying to set a meta for himself where everything is a null tell, so I encourage you all not to buy into it.

But my position is that if we were to leave them until endgame, it would be disastrous because you'd have to pick between a dumbass who might be scum, but can't tell(Zwet/Emp), or another player that may have evidence against them. The earlier they're both lynched the better. There's no advantage to having them in the game since they help scum regardless of their alignment.

I'm not blinded by them though, so if someone else catches my attention, I'll play my part like I should and pressure them and maybe vote for them as long as Emp and/or Zwet are soon to follow.

(besides, as I understand it, Zwet has been trying to spruce up his gameplay, and successfully at that)

I've heard that he's trying to also, but since he's continuing to be in nearly every one of my games, I can say that he's not successful nor does it even look like he's trying to change.

2. Why is Dej so against your playing style, as can be attested to by his sig.

Clearly you have not played with him, so it's only a matter of time before you see what I'm talking about.

[dejkha]

Why would an old man be a bad football player?

Are you trying to say my bones are weak and I have a bad hip?

[dejkha]

@Dej- Wow, that's a pretty compelling argument. Let's see how they perform in this particular game though, before casting any die, so to speak.

After what must be 50+ games of playing the same crappy way, I doubt they'd change in this one.

[dejkha]

I don't need to link to past games. He's the same in every game (I'm not kidding, choose any game he's been in and check it).

[dejkha]

Actually, I should probably cool it down with the Emp talk. Hewitt tends to have the urge to leave games when I get started with Emp and Zwet.

Vote Count

Dust 2 - AshMC1984, Empking
AA23 1 - Gorckat
Empking 1 - dejkha
zwetschenwasser 1 - Mixologist
Khamisa 1 - Percy

[dejkha]

On the other hand, other than Dej's almost unhealthy obsession with lynching you, I don't see much wrong with the just finished Pie game, considering he got nightkilled Night One. His main problem, and what I feel is the source of your accusation of bad play on his part, is the fact that he is absolutely dedicated to lynching you, and doesn't pay attention to much of what you say, which I feel is a mistake.

Would you try to make sense of a blabbering child or "special" kids that love their helmets? I don't have the patience for that kind of thing. I mostly just ignore what he says unless it's a question or comment that isn't completely stupid/useless.

[dejkha]

And that doesn't really matter because? Considering it made town suspicious of him and stopped him from scum hunting.

Dust, you should note that, as it turned out, it was actually scum that was "suspicious" of me.

[dejkha]

Vote: dust

I have seen dust in other games (not on this site) playing as scum, and in every one where he is scum, he starts

exactly

like this. Things to note: stifling of the RVS, which he supports when he's town, being quick to FoS but slow to vote etc.

There's no rule to linking to games outside of the site is there? Can you link to those games?

[dejkha]

Well, then obviously I can't take his word for it. No to mention how I doubt any player would give themselves away so easily.

[dejkha]

Vote: dust

You start off the game by killing discussion-gleaning phase. Bad cookie!

He didn't kill anything. That alone started discussion, as you can see.

[dejkha]

I'm not really seeing the Dust case here. If there's one thing I've learned from my time playing Mafia, it's that buddying isn't really a scumtell anymore. In fact, I've found that scum tend to not communicate so much with each other in the thread. They comment on each other here and there and maybe throw in a few questions to avoid suspicion, so buddying isn't really a tell, but distancing can be. But even that is only a tell if they're distancing themselves from someone that may be lynched.

[dejkha]

It's called a "tell". Everyone has them. Figuring out your own makes you better. In this case, you should be thanking Ace. I'm willing to give his info some merit,if he can share how many games he's observed these behaviors, and how many games don't match, as well as their order of occurrence.

It is a tell, but without evidence, I find it hard to believe he'd leave such an obvious trail. So unless there's proof of it, nobody else should consider it as evidence.

Is this why he hasn't posted?

I doubt it. He hasn't posted on the site since he confirmed in this game.

Never mind then. Now I really want dust lynched.

So you'll blindly believe that tell without proof or evidence of any kind other than Ace's word?

FoS: Anyone voting Dust just because they're believing Ace's claim without proof.

Unvote Vote: Zwet

[dejkha]

Where did he admit it? I guess I missed that.

[dejkha]

He said Ace doesn't understand his scum meta. All that implies is that Ace doesn't know what he's talking about one way or another. I'd appreciate clarification from Dust.

[dejkha]

The first line has nothing to do with his meta, just the site, which we cannot access.

[dejkha]

@Dust

It sounds like we're all after clarification from you.

My case is:

1.Hypocrisy
2. Flip Floppery (that's hard to be mad at - it sounds funny when spoken)
3.Trying to manufacture immunity
4. People pleasing (through distancing and the flip floppery...still a great phrase)
5. Misdirection (we're now not only caught up with meta, but meta in the direction of sites we cannot access)

Can you give examples of 1-4 using quotes? I don't think 5 is his fault. Some else brought up a meta we can't view, not him.

[dejkha]

AA, I see what you're saying with his case, but I still think a lot of it is minor. Something similar to this happened in another game I've played (PR quickly outed on Day 1). Scum force the the person to claim by putting them at L-1 this early. IMO everything he did wasn't enough to lynch, so I'll bet at least 3 of the 7 people on the wagon were scum from either group. More likely one of the two that put him at L-1 and L-2. It's almost never good to put someone at L-1 this early (if he is the real seer).

I don't think there's any harm, in saying this, but I'm thinking either Zwet or Dust could be a werewolf. Dust, if he's lying, for obvious reasons (trying to out the seer) or Zwet for pretty much also trying to out the seer when town would only be at a disadvantage if that was done.

I'll do a reread soon.

[dejkha]

And we're also guaranteed losing a Seer which is our only investigation role and can see if someone's a werewolf. Without him, we're blind.

[dejkha]

3. Why would Dust specifically claim seer? In a scenario where there is one power role, would it not be more responsible to claim towny/not scum? That way, you're not really lying, nor are you setting yourself up for a nightkill anyhow and thus defeating the purpose - - I'm actually asking, I'm not familiar with the ethics behind claiming

Whenever people say they're a townie, it's assumed vanilla and even if they claim that, the lynches will still go through. If he claimed not scum, the lynch would still probably go through, but would still hint at him being Seer. Either way, he'd more than likely be dead after Night 1 and his direct claim keeps us from mislynching him for sure (as far as we know).

[dejkha]

I just thought of something after reading Dust's last post. Ace and Zwet to me, do have a higher probability of being scum (and likely partners) than everyone else. Ace claims that in every game he's seen Dust as scum, he would always use the same method of stopping the random voting phase. I mean, that's some pretty concrete evidence. If his apparent knowledge of Dust's scum meta was that much of a giveaway, a Seer claim wouldn't be enough to remove his vote with almost no one left on the wagon. He also said that no CC made Dust's claim more believable, even though he acknowledged how a CC should happen.

And Zwet instantly went along with Ace and voted Dust due to Ace's claim of Dust's scum meta that could not be backed up at all or proved in any way. While they're both likely scum partners at the point, I find Zwet more suspicious since he could've done that with Ace being town.

Unvote Vote: Zwet

[dejkha]

So you purposefully tried to make people think he did this in multiple games as scum to help build a wagon on him? That's scummy also.

I have seen dust in

other games

(not on this site) playing as scum, and

in every one

where he is scum, he starts

exactly

like this. Things to note: stifling of the RVS, which he supports when he's town, being quick to FoS but slow to vote etc.

[dejkha]

Dust isn't mafia. Why would he purposefully out himself as the towns only power role knowing that he would be NK'ed that night.

If he's a werewolf, then it's perfectly easy to see why: try to out your biggest threat. So if he's a werewolf, he'll still be alive tomorrow.

1. My thought on the Dust being mafia, both wolves on the wagon, and no mafia quicklynching their own is still valid - - the reason he would (as mafia) out himself as seer isn't to set himself up for a nightkill - - it's actually a genius move to allow a mislynch AND double your chances of NKing the real seer - - think about it - - why go down as scum on a day 1 lynch when you can claim "seer" and have the real one CC (NK in the bag) and convince us to go and mislynch someone from the wagon (mafia then get two excellent deaths on their hands)

There's absolutely no reason the Mafia would want to kill the seer. All he does is see whether someone is a werewolf or not. The seer is no threat to mafia whatsoever. In fact, the seer helps them by seeking out their biggest threat: the werewolves. Fake claiming Seer as Mafia makes no sense.

[dejkha]

That's the point I'm trying to convey here. There is no logical explanation for why Dust, as Mafia, would out himself as the seer. It doesn't, however, rule out the possibility of him being Wolf.

My mistake, I misunderstood what you were saying.

[dejkha]

Ok, I see what you mean, AA. But still, Dust claiming as Mafia has it's pros and cons. Pros being he stays alive for the day and attracts a NK, leaving the real Seer to do his job, which benefits town and mafia. Cons being, he could've potentially outed the real Seer and there would've been one less mafia member (keep in my these are pros and cons from his PoV).

This is all if he's fakeclaiming though. He may be the real seer and this talk could be meaningless. Instead of talking about "if"s for now (which we've done enough of), we should talk about how people have reacted to the claim, which AA has been doing a pretty good job of. Here's my list of people on the wagon.

Scum Read:

Ace - For trying to mislead the town into thinking Dust has used an apparent scum meta in multiple games whenever he was scum. This was proven as a lie when Ace said that this only happened once when he was later called on it. Reference to posts 152 to 154

Zwet - Obviously for trying to get a counterclaim. I'm thinking a very likely werewolf.

Emp - Only loosely though, because of post 106 where he asks for a claim and tells people not to CC if he claims Seer. Like someone else said, he could've been communicating with a partner. That partner obviously being Dust. I'd also say possible werewolf.

AshMC1984 - He's made 4 short game relevant posts out of the 172 that have been made. What's there to say? Lurking scum? He unvoted after Dusts claim (his vote remained there from the RVS and he apparently never got around to changing it) and votes Zwet for voting without good reasons and trying to get a CC. He, however, doesn't mention Ace, who had the same reason for voting Dust as Zwet.

Town/ No Read:

AA23 - AA has been seemed pretty town to me in the sense that he hasn't done anything scummy that I remember, and has been generally telling us all with good reasons, who could be scum on the wagon as well as providing different possibilities.

Percy - Hasn't done much of anything scummy, but at the same time, nothing much pro-town either.

Possible Scum Pairs

Zwet/ Ace Werewolfs (Most likely) - Supported in posts 152 and 154.

Ace/ Ash Mafia (Possible)- Ash ignores Ace's reason for voting Dust, but doesn't ignore Zwet, who used the same reasoning.

Emp/ Dust Werewolves - Emp asked Dust to claim and mentions how a Seer shouldn't CC should that be the claim. If this were the pairing, it could be for two reasons. He hints at Dust to claim Seer and it would also keep his partner alive while making it look like he's keeping the towns best interest in mind.

Hopefully, when people have time, we'll have more opinions.

[dejkha]

they distract town away from our primary objective of finding scum by getting into arguments

that they won't back down from, and refuse to listen to reason.

AA, it's in the best interest of the town if you just let it go.

[dejkha]

The whole point about the Emp case is that he told no one to CC if you were to claim Seer. That's scummy. When you ask someone to claim, you wait and see and then say something like that. Since he said it beforehand, you look like possible scumbuddies.

[dejkha]

Dej - what are your own thoughts on the case and how do you then feel about the Zwet vote?

Like Dust said, it's not much of a case, so I won't support a lynch just for that. I think my lead on Zwet and Ace is better.

[dejkha]

Only if you can guarantee posting before the seer. I couldn't.

It is better to make my post than to riisk seer counterclaiming or scum getting off claiming.

It has it's pros and cons, but the cons outweigh the pros since we don't know anyones alignment.

@Dej - My Emp case reflects heavily on the very point you made when you connected Dust and Emp in your previous post

Yeah and all that consists of is Emp telling a Seer not to CC ahead of time and the benefits that could have if they're were a pair. I don't think just that is worthy of a lynch.

[dejkha]

Please tell me that's not all you have to say...

[dejkha]

1. That's not hypocrisy. If you're gonna make a smart ass remark, make sure you know what the word means.
2. Compare my quotes with other peoples from earlier to show how and where I parroted.
3. Anything else you'd like to say or do you like when cases against you are reinforced by active lurking?

[dejkha]

Also, everyone take a look at Zwets 20 posts in isolation. No scumhunting whatsoever. All he's done is blindly agree with Ace's reasons for his vote and asked for a CC. Both of which are scummy.

[dejkha]

Actually after re-reading both zwet and Ace in isolation I'm more interested in Ace though for these two posts:

Vote: dust

I have seen dust in other games (not on this site) playing as scum, and in every one where he is scum, he starts exactly like this.

Things to note: stifling of the RVS, which he supports when he's town, being quick to FoS but slow to vote etc.

dej: Mind you

I've only seen him in one game as scum

, but he started it the same way.

Contradiction anyone?

*facepalm*

Please tell me someone other than Percy noticed when I pointed this out earlier.

@Ash, Zwet put Dust at L-3, so it's that's not very dangerous, nor is it particularly close to a lynch since there's still wiggle room and it was early in the game, not to mention how it was Zwet who had the newly formed wagon when you voted him. Zwet voted because of Ace's meta on Dust, so that means they were both voting for the same reason: Ace's meta on Dust, and you only made a point of Zwet doing it. Is that not the case? That's what I see it as.

I can't really explain without pissing Dust off. I've seen him as an alt only once on MS, but he forbade me from telling who. I know this sounds shaky, but he can confirm it for you.

There's not really much to explain. You lied.

Vote Count

zwetschenwasser 3 - Khamisa, dejkha, AshMC1984
AceMarksman 2 - Percy, Mixologist
AA23 1 - Gorckat

[dejkha]

Sorry, but given how you chose to withhold the information the first time by not saying that one game was on MS, I'm not gonna let it fly.

[dejkha]

@Ace: The point is that you didn't say the one game was on MS, and now you're saying it was. That's a vital detail in your story and I don't believe it when it looks like you just found a loophole.

@Dust: I don't care if you out yourself since I already don't believe his claimed meta on you. One of your deaths may decide who should or shouldn't be trusted, so it looks like we may find out by tomorrow

@Ash: Sorry, I was mistaken on the basis of Zwets vote. I see what you mean now.

[dejkha]

With only 5 game relevant posts, I must say, Hewitt, you're unusually quiet.

[dejkha]

Normally he's pretty active. It should show in any previous game he's played (except Pie E7).

[dejkha]

His activity has been declining lately though, so it's pretty much a nulltell.

True, but know he's not even saying much in the few posts he does make. I find that a little suspicious.

PS. Mixologist, if there's one thing that majorly pisses me off (ask dejkha), it's someone who generalizes someone as stupid in RL merely because of their Mafia playstyle. I don't appreciate your comment on the last page at all.

Oh yeah, he hates that >.>

[dejkha]

After that last one, I couldn't resist. That stuff is gold. Oh, I'm gonna add something to the second one. heh heh

[dejkha]

Damn, my sig is at it's limit.

Vote Count

zwetschenwasser 3 - Khamisa, dejkha, AshMC1984
AceMarksman 3 - Percy, Mixologist, Dust
AA23 1 - Gorckat

[dejkha]

Can I get meta on Hewitt's posting habits?

^scum

Why do you say that?

[dejkha]

I'VE ALREADY TOLD YOU

No, you quoted the post and said scum, which implies you think so because of that post. So why?

[dejkha]

AA, I understand the reason you're voting, but the problem is that it's to little to vote for. Your Emp case is worse than the Dust case, which wasn't all that good either.

[dejkha]

I don't think it's a case, that's just what I decided to call it. Whether it's a case or lead, it's not really enough to be voting for given the larger leads out there.

There's no reason to pair them together. I know it's scummy, but I feel there have been scummier actions to think about.

Even saying "Hey, if/when he claims, dont CC" means the same as what he originally said, since Seer is the only thing someone would claim with a chance of a CC. No one would CC Townie or Mafia/Werewolf if someone were crazy enough to claim those.

[dejkha]

EBWOP "Emp is being Emp" meta immunity for being crazy instead of actually considering the idea I present

I never let him by just because he's stupid (or whatever you wanna call him). I'd think the same of it no matter who it was.

[dejkha]

The situation I'm in is that I didn't wat a claim to begin with - I am not a fan of such a thing happening on Day1 - This is actually the first game it's happened this early (that I've played)

Only in certain circumstances does a Day 1 claim matter and that mostly revolves around how the voting went. I personally feel this was one of the situations where a claim should've happened.

[dejkha]

my opinions on the seer as I read: As long as there are two werewolves, Dust's claim shouldn't be CC'd as our one seer is more valuable then their lynches. After one is lynched, the seer then should CC (if dust is lying), netting us the two dangerous scum.

Dust is likely dead tonight either way, so it doesn't matter if he's lying. Unless he's a werewolf that is. Otherwise it would stupid of the werewolves to let him live to attract suspicion.

[dejkha]

Was that a lynch?

[dejkha]

I'm seriously concerned about YOU, and Dej - - I've played with him before, and he does NOT miss POOR and TERRIBLE logic such as what lead to this lynch unless it were DELIBERATE.

I made my case against Zwet and it was one of the best leads we had, so now I'm gonna move to the next one best one for now.

Vote: Ace

I don't think you're one to talk about poor and terrible logic that leads to a lynch. You were part of the reason why our Seer had to claim within the first 5 pages of the game, which should never have to happen especially given the weak reasons for putting him at L-1.

Also, I doubt you've played with me enough to know that I don't care if Zwet and/or Emp are lynched for poor reasons. They could be lynched for nothing for all I care, I'll lynch them both on policy. I just happened to have a reason this time.

[dejkha]

No matter how you spin it, I wasn't responsible for any deaths last night

And I wasn't responsible for Dust claiming, I was responsible for having the ball rolling on this game - The idea was to see how other people reacted to a case, and it worked just fine.

Any scummy action can be turned to sound like that.

It's rather pushing it on your part to magically stir shit up with me over that THIS late - seems like you're reaching

I'm not stirring up anything. You mentioned my role in a pointless lynch (in your view) and I mentioned your role in a quick near lynch to force our Seer to claim. If I stirred anything up, so did you and in that case, you started it.

How is it you have nothing to say on Mix's behavior? The guy jumped ship like nobody's business at the sign of a faster lynch, it's mental! What are your thoughts? He hopped on the dirtiest wagon I've ever seen! All the lurkers, Emp, and HEWITT - who he hadn't fully trusted yet!

I just don't see anything scummy about his hammer. Hewitt is suspicious for being on the wagon while hardly posting anything with content and Emp is Emp, so I'll take him into consideration when I'm lost of leads.

And I have played with you enough to know that you don't ignore poor logic - unless deliberate - that was my statement - you're only furthering that in your post - - I can absolutely believe you when you say you would deliberately exercise poor logic for a utility lynch (or in this case, someone you don't like/need to kill as a villain)

Then do me a favor and point out the poor logic. And if it comes back to Zwet being a bad choice to lynch, then that'll come back to you having a part in our Seer claiming on page 5 and

that

I will ignore. But if it's something else, then by means, because I'm unaware.

My vote stays. Unless somebody magically confesses or is called out 100% during the events to come on this day - It's not changing. I'm sitting put.

That's a good way to make sure you don't switch your vote to your scumbuddy. Normally I'd say you're smarter than that to know not to make your vote concrete like that, but I've only played you when you were scum...

did you mean to vote AA in that post?

Nope.

[dejkha]

You've pointed out the poor logic for me -

Zwet clearly wasn't kicking and screaming for a CC - he mentioned it once and brought it up twice in response to someone asking him about it

It was a weak case, and there was a better lead on Ace -

Yeah, but Ace's case mostly relied on what Dust flip (if he died).

And poor logic? If Mix jumped ships because that wagon built so fast, and you stayed on a wagon with Hewitt and Emp who you don't trust - - how is that logical?

Hewitt hops on a wagon and you don't think anything of it? You don't turn an eye to him?

Ok, maybe it wasn't logical, but I've seen Zwet do it, so some people are just noobs at the game. I don't think anything of it. If you do, then good for you, keep at it and prove me wrong.

What would I say anything about hewitt that I haven't already said? The guy hardly posts...

And our meta together only shows that you're potentially just as poor a towny as you are scum - I'm going to beat you, and you're not going to burn this town on my watch.

Actually, that statement would imply that I was scum in the only game we've played, which I wasn't, so that doesn't make sense. Lol @ the last sentence.

And what's that crap you're saying about turning to Emp when you run out of leads?

You profess utility lynching tendencies that hurt town, and admit you're just going to swing to him when your pockets are empty?

I've done it before, I'll do it again.

[dejkha]

Dej - I like you because of what I've seen from your playstyle, so believe me when I say it's hard for me to believe you would only acknowledge such poor logic this late!! You know what a mislynch does to a town and you ALWAYS weigh the options and possibilities out first (not to MadeofPhail's extent, but still) - -

You see this, people? This is AA telling me what I always do (which is in fact wrong) when we've only played one game together. Hewitt, Zwet and Emp have played with me more than that and I'm sure most of them will say I do not always do that, especially when it comes to Emp and Zwet and I'm sure hewitt will agree.

Exactly my point! - - The Dej I've seen play would have turned an eye to him and found out what put him on the wagon - - you would have seen scum in hewitt for that - - not joined in on the fun and hop on the wagon!

This is also AA trying to make me look guilty by saying I joined in with hewitt on the wagon rather than saying something. Now there' two things wrong with that, one being that Hewitt hardly posts, so I'm not switching my vote to see hewitt as confirmed scum because he hopped the wagon. Two being that I was the second person on the wagon and never came off. Hewitt voted after me.

Please, stop trying to act like you now know me so well from an single game. My first game with Zwet, I thought he was a pretty decent player and now look at what I think of him.

FoS: AA

[dejkha]

Say what you want - - whether I live or die, I know who you and Mix are and am content -

Cool, so what are we? So I know which faction you're on by knowing its on the opposite scum group.

We'll see what the town makes of you two - - I notice you haven't even commented on what I've pointed out from the "Zwet case"

There's nothing to comment on. I think differently of it than you. Try to get that through your head.

It was non-existent, and in a game with 5 villains I can be damn sure almost all were on it.

Just like how the Dust wagon was likely full of scum to. Including yourself. Also, your constant WIFOM is making you look scummier.

[dejkha]

You think I'm scum for discussing my thoughts and you can pass them off as WIFOM?

Actually, I'm passing off your WIFOM as WIFOM.

You think I'm scum because I pointed out that scum could have been on the Dust wagon - and I also said I myself should be considered? I'm scum for telling people myself and others from that wagon should be investigated? - Hm.

Where did I say that?

And you still have no Zwet comment - - hell, even my dust case was tangable - There was nothing on Zwet and one would be ridiculous to dispute - - the guy offered an expected idea, mentioned it twice, and dropped it - - you guys crucified him!!

If it's a Zwet lynch, I'm never against it.

"Zwet stole the candy from the baby? Lynch him!" I'm cool with it. Emp or Zwet could be lynched Day 1 once the game starts and I'd be ok with it (it's happened to).

And I think you and Mix are villains and I'm town - - those opposites

No, you said you know who we are. Who are we? Mafia, werewolf what? Whatever it is, I'll know you're in the opposite scum faction.

You're getting kind of aggressive and it makes me wonder if you're nervous with all the negativity, narrow mindedness, and nasty "get this through your head" attitudes.....

I'm almost always aggressive in that sense. The one game I played with you was the one game I wasn't and, coincidentally, the one game where I was widely considered undoubtedly pro-town.

Should I let you get nervous in your scum boots, wait until you say something further unintelligent/useless, and put it in my signature? Should I start the lynch Dej movement? Is that what a logical player does lmao lol

You're my own Zwet/Emp character, you are.... lol

A simple joke statement possibly revealed as scummy, me thinks. You make a comment about my previous sig and sarcastically say it's what as logical player would do. Since that was sarcasm, it implies that you do not believe me to be particularly logical, and yet that's your case on me. Strange.

So you truly believed Zwet to be scum? based on asking everyone if we should CC, confirming to Emp that he proposed it, ASKED us what was wrong with it, and settled.

That wasn't the entire case. Reread and try to find it. At least show the effort.

And Mix having nothing to do majorly with the "Zwet case" until it picked up and looked like an easy end to the day? That's not scummy?

Yeah right lol

You know what, you're right, but I don't care, so the only way to make be care is to prove it and strengthen it! Go for it, guy! [/sarcasm] Seriously, either make me believe it or stop arguing about it. Make a full post showing the case against him, maybe.

Dej, I'm disappointed in you - - In these two games we've had, with two different roles - it's two different people - I think you're meaner as scum (which is an unfortunate give away)

I, for one, believe that only scum would claim to know the roles of others without a claim, but that's just me.

Anyone else want to speak up? Ace? Hewitt, perhaps? Maybe any of the lurkers here, which adds up to about 5, maybe 6...

[dejkha]

Are you forgetting that in the game you were town, you worked hard to put aside that prejudice in an effore to not let it hurt the whole town? - - are you aware I'm not basing my regard for you on just our game, but your entire meta that I took the care to read up on?.....I suppose that didn't occur to you.

It looks like someone else likes to lie about meta's.

I'm perfectly content - - call for help all you want lol "Guys! hewitt! Lets get some dialogue!" lol - - need saving from the very people you duped into killing a towny?

Lol wow, more misrepresenting. That about does it.

Unvote Vote: AA

And pray tell - - what was the case on Zwet if the "CC hunt" was bullshit? What was the case? Do take the care to simply state it, friend, and let me tell you - - it better be damn good and not based on interpretation.

- Asked for CC twice.
- Wanted to kill Dust if he remained alive, almost as if he was setting it up
- Oh and the real chunk of the case: believing Ace's meta on Dust without question or evidence of any kind.

Good scumhunting is based on quotes and evidence that are majority recognizable as scummy and not more so potentially town

- - the best scum evidence is such that can't be confused as a towny move.

Cool, so are you onna do what I asked of you or what?

Make a full post showing the case against [Mix], maybe.

[dejkha]

So you want to stick to him asking about the CC even when I connected the only posts he mentioned on it? He wasn't forcing it! It wasn't scummy! He suggested it, and settled on not going for it because it was a general consensus that it was a bad idea - - so there goes that point lol

I dun care. Also, I just noticed how you never spoke up against the reasons for voting him, until after he was lynched. As far as I could tell, you never even tried to explain why Zwets approach to a CC wasn't scummy until

after

he was lynched. I guess you were just waiting to set people up on it. If I'm wrong, quote yourself on where you did, but I couldn't find anything.

And wanting to kill Dust if he was alive today? THATS COMMON SENSE - - all circumstances are different, and unless there was outstanding evidence that who he would point to or someone else were scum, I myself would have voted him!

No, it was a possibility that they might've left him alive for that reason. It's just as hard to tell as it is to tell a PR CC in a lylo situation. It could've been a scum tactic.

You can't keep someone like that alive and risk more townies dying in a mislynch/nightkill to come - - if someone claims seer and is alive the next day, they're either scum, or scum tool, and you can't trust their judgement till you know their allignment - - So there goes that point, genius lol - - common sense? You wanted him to burn for common sense?

Keeping him alive or killing him, it doesn't matter, a townie/scum would've been NK'd because there's 2 werewolves, not one. Common sense isn't so common. Proof = you.

And lastly - believing the meta? you're holding him responsible for having an opinion? You feel that was a good reason to lynch him over the person that LIED about the meta lol

I stated my reason for lynching him over Ace. In fact, you asked me and I answered yesterday. If you actually read the thread, instead of trying to incriminate me (horribly, btw), then you would've noticed.

I wish you could vote me twice, Dej, because you don't scare me at all lol - - your arguments have crumbled down to you pointing and "baha!"-ing at my statements on your meta (you're just being incredulous) and your actual case points and defense is WEAK.

If mine are weak, I can't imagine how horrible yours is. Your case must be pushing the limits of "suck".

You and Mix are going down - -

Looks like more WIFOM to me.

[dejkha]

You don't get to make requests, scum, you get to sit there and continue to feel helpless lol

An excuse not to explain a supposed case. Nice job, guy.

Dej - everyone else on the wagon could potential feel something similar to remorse for losing a towny - you don't seem phased - you've made it clear that you didn't NEED a case to vote Zwet (or Emp) - - you'll vote them for the hell of it - - - that ALSO makes you a HYPOCRITE - - why defend a non-existent case on Zwet and insist there was good reason to kill him when you constantly admit you don't WANT a reason to kill him.

It's Zwet. Why would I feel remorse? Note that the last time someone mistook my hate of Emp and Zwet for scumminess, I was town. Which shows how your meta read on me was lies just like Ace on Dust. There was a case on Zwet. I even said that I'll vote either of them for nothing,

but there just happened to be a case this time.

You're not down with the reading are you? Where did I say I don't want a reason to kill him? I expect quotes.

I even took the time to go back and find something scummy about Mix's hammer, but the only thing I could find remotely scummy was that he didn't leave time for a claim in the event that Zwet was the actual Seer.

[dejkha]

Mod, can you prod everyone that hasn't posted since Day 2 started? They've all seem to have posted elsewhere.

[dejkha]

Wow, actually Day 2 feels a lot longer than it has been given the amount of posts there have been.

[dejkha]

I'm sorry, everyone, but AA is to feeble minded to put up with alone, so I'm not posting in this game until everyone else starts to participate.

I really want the whole town to kick up the activity at this time before I consider something like that, Dust - - Too much lurking.

It's hard to think so many people have so little to say at this point in time - Khamisa, Ace, Percy...

Zwet, Gorckat...

According to your logic, you were asking for help and/or back up in that post. What were you afraid of? Why did you need back up?

[dejkha]

Holy crap, I lost internet right at the end of posting all this. Thank god I copied all of it before previewing it lol.

I'll collect all of the things wrong with AA since Day 2 started:

For one thing, take a look at all of this WIFOM

WIFOM

WIFOM is never good

Say what you want - - whether I live or die, I know who you and Mix are and am content -

You and Mix are going down - -

I'm going to beat you, and you're not going to burn this town on my watch.

Putting Words Into My Mouth/ Misrepresenting Me

Many of these, I asked him to quote me and asked where I said that. He never responded to any with quotes.

You think I'm scum because I pointed out that scum could have been on the Dust wagon - and I also said I myself should be considered? I'm scum for telling people myself and others from that wagon should be investigated? - Hm.

I never said that.

Here he tries to make it look like I had one minor reason to lynch Zwet:

So you truly believed Zwet to be scum? based on asking everyone if we should CC, confirming to Emp that he proposed it, ASKED us what was wrong with it, and settled.

That wasn't all. I later gave the 3 reasons for my vote.

I'm perfectly content - - call for help all you want lol "Guys! hewitt! Lets get some dialogue!" lol - - need saving from the very people you duped into killing a towny?

lol Yes! Call for a prod!! You need help Dej!!!!!! lol you're on the run, pal.

Now, it's no surprise how the game is/was getting slow and only a few people were posting, but he now gets desperate enough to call requested prods a call for help. That's downright pathetic and clearly a scummy thing to say. Not to mention how he to has called for people to participate, which shows hypocrisy.

why defend a non-existent case on Zwet and insist there was good reason to kill him when

you constantly admit you don't WANT a reason to kill him.

He claims that I constantly admit that I didn't want a reason to kill Zwet when I never said that either.

So that we're clear - - out of the three weak responses you gave for lynching Zwet, the one you maintain is waterproof is the fact that he believed the meta Ace proposed?

To be fair, here he was asking if that's what I was saying. But I also never said or implied that, so I'm baffled as to how he came to that conclusion that I thought anything was proved.

Meta Issues On Me

Dej - I like you because of what I've seen from your playstyle, so believe me when I say it's hard for me to believe you would only acknowledge such poor logic this late!! You know what a mislynch does to a town and you ALWAYS weigh the options and possibilities out first (not to MadeofPhail's extent, but still) - -

My response:

You see this, people? This is AA telling me what I always do (which is in fact wrong) when we've only played one game together. Hewitt, Zwet and Emp have played with me more than that and I'm sure most of them will say I do not always do that, especially when it comes to Emp and Zwet and I'm sure hewitt will agree.

Exactly my point! - - The Dej I've seen play would have turned an eye to him and found out what put him on the wagon - - you would have seen scum in hewitt for that - - not joined in on the fun and hop on the wagon!

Claims I joined the wagon with hewitt instead of calling him out on his lurking. Now, I have called hewitt out on lurking and there was no reason to change my vote (which was there

before

hewitt). So, he was using incorrect information to incriminate me and expected me to make hewitt my priority instead of the person I was voting for, just for that.

- - are you aware I'm not basing my regard for you on just our game, but your entire meta that I took the care to read up on?.....I suppose that didn't occur to you.

That statement was to back up how I don't let poor logic fly so easily and how I always weigh options.

In these two games, as town this proves him wrong and shows how he to, like Ace, is lying about reading a meta to incriminate someone.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10847 - Switched back and forth between voting Emp and Zwet during Day 1 and Emp was lynch. Zwet was on Day 2.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11133 - Emp was lynched within 24 hours of the game starting. I was part of the wagon.

AA and his suspects and their roles:

Mix, Dej, and Ace are what I regard as villains, however Ace is seperate from the other two, opposite, they want him dead.

So according to that post he thinks Mix, Ace and I are scum. He also says that he thinks me and Mix are of the same scum faction and that Ace is in the opposite. Fair enough.

Mix is therefore 100% scum - - chased the lynch and not the scum, he wanted blood and he wanted to get night actions off the ground.

Here he claims the reasons for Mix's hop to the wagon was to get the night going for the night actions. This implies that he believes Mix is 100% Werewolve, since Mafia have no reason to want the night to come any sooner than town since they don't have the ability to NK. So as of now, his conclusions are Werewolves: Me and Mix and Mafia: Ace and two others.

And don't tell me what I know, presume, or think - - I'm saying I know what you and Mix are - And that is VILLAIN - - Once you/Mix flip, I'll have a better idea.

So now he knows without a doubt that we're scum. But not only that, but he also claims that he doesn't know our specific roles, which the last presented quote would beg differ to. So AA, what do you presume we do with you if you're wrong about one of us?

The next time you villains try to say a case is so wonderfully solid, and more so than someone lying like Ace

So now Ace is lying? But before you said "it's purely hyperbole that can be exploited as a scumtell..." So which is it? Before it was an exploited hyperbole, now it's lying and you suspect him for it? You claim to have re-read and regarded it as a lie, but I don't see where. Give me a quote and post number to where you said why you think it's now a lie.

So, because AA hardly made mention of Ace, someone he supposedly suspected, I'm gonna guess they're both in the same group. Most likely Mafia, since AA seems to be searching for werewolves. What better group for Mafia, eh? Two meta liars? Lol All we need now is a third meta liar.

I also don't understand why AA never defended Zwet like this before the lynch was made. Now that it's Day 2, he's repeated saying why the case was weak and is specifically breaking it down to show why it was weak, yet he never did that in Day 1. Not to the extent he is now. Seems like he wanted the lynch to go through and the incriminate people that were on the wagon (which he's doing with about 4 people), meanwhile, he never voted by the time a lynch was made on Day 1. I guess he wanted to make sure he couldn't be blamed for a faulty lynch.

And another little tidbit. I asked him to lay out the Mix case in a single post and he gives me this:

The rest of this board isn't stupid, Dej - - If they don't know why I think you and Mix are scum, I'll clarify it for THEM - -

You don't get to make requests, scum, you get to sit there and continue to feel helpless lol

That can be interpreted in two ways. Either scum needing time to form a case or scum finding a way out of explaining a nonexistent case.

In other news:

But it caused a mislynch. Should we trust your cases then?

I never told you or anyone else to vote him nor did I encourage anyone to do so. I'm not asking anyone to "trust" my cases. Do you know how many times people make cases only for it to be a mislynch? A majority of the time. I'm not seeing why you brought that up...

All of the things I'm stirring up stand strong, and all Dej has to say about it is weak - -

That's your problem. This is all opinionated until we get others in here to show who they agree with and why. For all you know, everyone will come in and say your case is shitty (even I don't think that will happen though).

[dejkha]

I acknowledged these three. Let that be noted - he seems to have some chronological mix up with his quotes to manufacture back and forths.

You didn't acknowledge them until I posted that, is what I meant.

I told you my opinion on how many scum were on said wagon - - you incredulously passed that off and told me "Just like you thought scum was on the Dust wagon including yourself"

Can't you give me the post number I said that in. I just wanna make sure, because I don't remember saying that.

I DID acknowledge the three points. And all of them were terrible

You only acknowledged them when they actually happened. You never mentioned them once when saying why it was a bad lynch, until I brought them up.

If you bothered to read - I stated the difference between prodding to get things moving, and prodding when you're all out of ideas on how to get out of a situation.

If you bothered to read -

I stated

why you're scummy for saying that.

Niether you or Mix have cleared yourself of the suspicions. In fact, you're going so far as to mass post OPINIONATED nonesense against me. It's terribly weak.

Why do you insist on speaking for everyone? We haven't cleared ourselves of

your

suspicions, not

the

suspicions. Are you speaking on behalf of your scumbuddies? Speaking of which, hey Ace, are you ever gonna post anything or are you always just gonna be "reading"?

Have you or have you not made it clear that you will lynch Zwet and Emp no matter what, and did you not say that there "happened to be a vote on them as well"

X FUCKING D. I didn't say that. Get me quotes for once, for the sake of your case, please get some quotes and post numbers and prove I said those thing. In fact, I never said I will lynch Zwet and Emp no matter what. I've only said in other games that it would be wise not to let them live until lylo.

And my point on Hewitt is that you STAYED ON THE WAGON when he did and didn't suspect him - - not that you joined** - - I'm saing I have a problem that you trusted a wagon with untrustworthy people (lurker)

That's weird because you said I "joined in on the fun". Joining =/= staying. Stay with me here. At least I can provide actual quotes to back myself up against your defenses. There's two scum groups, are you forgetting this? Just because hewitt could be scum, doesn't mean Zwet couldn't have been. If I avoided every wagon that included someone I didn't trust, I'd never be able to vote.

Are you telling me what I have and haven't read? Are you saying that you have NEVER in a game on this board, exercised logic and patience as a towny to be safe than sorry?

No, I'm telling you what you clearly haven't read. You said I "know what a mislynch does to a town and

ALWAYS weigh the options and possibilities out first". You said "always", and since I proved you wrong, it shows that you were lying about basing it off my "entire meta". See those? Those are real quotes of yours being proven wrong, thus catching you in a lie.

I am town, opposite to you and mix who are VILLAINS

Add that to me WIFOM section for AA.

and because I suspect that Ace may be dirty, it would suggest by you wanting him dead that maybe he's of different allingment - - it's logic - -

No, no, actually it's called bussing.

Night progression for any villain is a good thing - - I can only say who is scummy, I won't go so far as to give titles -

It's not good for day talkers without a NK. Mafia have nothing to gain from ending the day so quickly and without question.

my vote is on Mix right now because THAT evidence is concrete

Ok, so then hypothetically, what would you presume we do with you if you're wrong about Mix?

if anything they'll come in and tell me (rightfully) I'm being a jackass, but that doesn't mean I'm WRONG

Right and just because you think my case is weak doesn't mean they will either. I've given nothing but facts in my case against you (excluding things I've claimed to be unsure of).

Why aren't you more concerned with the liar?

The liar hasn't been posting and I'm pretty sure both of you are scum, so I don't care who I investigate, as long as it's one of you.

Nice case, Dej. - - understand why I don't trust someone that lynches over that?

That would imply that you trust someone in this game. Since it's mafia, the only person you should trust, if anyone, are your scumbuddies if you have them. Slip? Nah, I won't go that far just yes...

Also AA, let's halt this discussion for now (including your response) and wait for people to get back. We've been talking for 3 pages, I think, and we've made some rather large posts, so I don't want to keep adding to what they have to catch up on. Plus, it'll give you the time to look for those quotes

[dejkha]

and above the 405 quote , yout number 1 point is WIFOM and putting words in my mouth as well as jumping to conclusions - - if you guys like lynching and bitching about other people doing things, don't be hypocrites and do it yourself.

At least I show proof of these things on your end. All you ever do is claim someone says or does something, and when asked to back it up, you never do, because you can't.

Either way, hypocrisy doesn't take away from what we say, if it's true.

[dejkha]

everything people are saying is completely opinionated, you can't prove that I'm putting on a face of any sort - - so there's no clearing, there's innocent until proven guilty (hence my vote isn't on Dej, it's on Mix)

Actually, I've proved you've been lying and trying to make people think others have said/done thing's that they haven't.

Dej - I like how little you still have to say - - and don't give me beef on quotes - - I'm still laughing about shutting you up with 351 lol

I'm not giving you beef on quotes, just saying how it's clear that I can provide them to point out your lies and you have failed to use them to back up your defense. I'm just pointing out the facts is all.

I posted 351, so you can't shut me up when I made the post. And it's been shown so far that the only one that thinks you've shut me up is yourself. I don't see anyone, as of yet, saying they agree with you toward me.

Dej - do you still have no opinions on the Mix hopping over case?

The same opinion I had last time you asked: I don't find it very scummy.

[dejkha]

No, you pointed out what you FEEL are lies - they are your opinions

Nope. They're proven facts.

Opinions aren't facts

Exactly. That's why I said facts. Check www.dictionary.com for clarification.

lol I can shut you up when you tell me to provide you with proof that you said it - - it's actually MORE SAD that you typed it and FORGOT lol so thank you, I agree

I tell him I made a certain post and he gives me this. What is it? I don't even know...

Then we have no more business together - I'll keep to my wagon and you keep to yours.

So that's it huh? This is why I hate to let myself get vulnerable in relationships! I get too close and this is what happens... >_>

[dejkha]

Percy - if you read - Dej wanted to know where he had even suggested in the slightest that he didn't care about Zwet or Emp and

that he would lynch them no matter what

- - he told me to prove he said that - 351 does - - - clear? lol-----------------------------------------

For the record I never said that in this game (I might've said it in others). I said I would lynch them for nothing. It's not the same thing.

@dej/Emp- More pressure on Ace, when he flips scum we can worry about AA tomorrow.

Fine with me. As said earlier, I think they're both scum. And given Ace recent nothingness post...

Unvote Vote: Ace

[dejkha]

Dej - I'm not saying Ace is innocent, but his flipping villain WILL be a card for Mix to play - - what makes this a bad thing is Mix being a villain himself

Lol ok. I never brought that up. Bit now that you mention it, Zwet's town flip was a card you played. You weren't on his wagon when he was lynched but you went after half the people that were.

In the post above your last from me to him - - you see no scum characteristics from him?

Not really. All I see is bickering.

Once again - I have no case on you, but your refusal to be open minded to things makes me uneasy - if I'm missing something, help me out, but this case is far from opinionated.

Actually, all cases are opinionated.

Mix has lied, been hypocritical, opportunistic, and is failing to justify his actions

What say you?

What say I? I say you've lied, been hypocritical and failed to back up your claims. So yeah, he appeared to make a vote that was opportunistic, but he explained and I still don't think anything of it.

He's failing to defend himself - I request you please read the case

I have read the case, I just don't think it's a very big one. You and Ace take priority over him. You seem to think I failed to defend myself, yet no else seems to think so, so maybe he's not failing that much either.

[dejkha]

your argument suggests I should stop trying to lynch suspected scum (like Mix) because there are 4 other people worth lynching as WELL.

I don't think that's it. I just think he's saying that

he's

not gonna stop trying to lynch who

he

suspects to be scum. That's the approach I think most of us are taking.

[dejkha]

I think AA23 and dejhka both have substantial chances to be scum, which makes their back & forth interesting and awesome. I'd be happy seeing both strung up. I don't particularly care yet in which order.

Any reasons why? That's a pretty baseless statement that, if you don't elaborate on, would make me happy to see you "strung up".

I'm happy lynching any of them. I don't mind the pressure on AceMarksman.

You just "don't mind" it? So you want Me, AA and Mix lynched, but you're not sold on Ace? That's in need of serious explanation. How do all three of us take priority over someone that lied in an attempt to get an early lynch, lied even more to try and get out of the previous lie and then laid low ever since caught on both lies?

There are some others I won't lynch that I'm not going into at this moment.

Unless you do some serious explaining on the issues above, I'm gonna guess the people you're not going to lynch are your scumbuddies.

First real post in the game and you're already not making sense...

[dejkha]

In all fairness, he suggested time was a factor when typing it.

I know, but at the end he said he'll post more when the questions are answered or if someone has questions for him, which implied that he wasn't going to explain unless asked to, which is not a protown approach to take.

[dejkha]

Why isn't it pro-town?

Because, if you're scum, saying who you suspect and who you will not lynch without giving any reasons at all, gives you time to think of reasons over the course of time. And the longer you do that, the more likely it is that you are scum. There's no reason why you can't give it all in one post.

So I'd suggest that everyone be aware of what he's doing. Or rather, what he's not doing, because all he's doing is buying himself time to think of something acceptable.

[dejkha]

^In This Post: horrible play.

[dejkha]

Oh my god, I totally forgot about this game o.O. My bad, reading now. I seriously apologize to everyone.

For fucks sake, cut the shit. By your post before this, you're clearly ignoring this game, so saying you're "reading" won't save you from a lynch. Especially when you're ALWAYS reading and never posting!

What I think on any other player is irrelevent because I feel the MOST sure about priority one, Mix

Oh really?...

These are all red flags that he hasn't cleared up - -

he, and either ignorant/scumbuddy/people who truly can't or don't care

- whichever they are, don't WANT a defense from Mix, they would rather a better offense on Ace.

Then why should we concentrate on someone who we don't feel is a priority? Why should we do what you refuse to do?

I know you're attached to your Ace case, I'm not saying the guy is in the clear, I'm saying that we have a tighter case on Mix.

An opportunistic vote is so not a tighter case than someone lying on multiple occasions to get an easy lynch. It would be a nice way to keep from voting for your scumbuddy though.

Until I can lynch more than one person, I'm going to work with one person.

While I can't find anything wrong with that, it's a particularly smart way to play, unless you easily forget what goes on in the game.


@Hewitt- Percy explained the Ace case pretty well. Do you understand why Ace was lying now? And why do you continue to hardly post and post little when you do.

[dejkha]

Mod: Can you please prod Khamisa and Ash? And can we get a vote count?

[dejkha]

@Dej
Not ONCE have I put Ace in the clear or suggested he hasn't been in need of investigating - - I find it

incredibly scummy

of you to try and attach me to his potential guilt by saying I'm his scumbuddy and am trying to avoid his lynch - It's cheap and sleazy

Actually, you and Ace are the most likely pair we have. An opportunistic hammer is no where near as scummy as continually lying to get an easy lynch. A scummy hammer can be done by a townie, but lying for an easy lynch would just about always come from scum. The mere fact that you're trying to lynch Mix over Ace for that reason makes you most likely to be Ace's partner.

I found Ace's comment sarcastic and smug seeing as he's posted in other games during the time that he said he would read this one yet forgot about it completely - -

However, that does NOT (now read slowly, Dej) NOT outway somebody lynching opportunistically and desperately trying to prove it wasn't

- - going so far as to LIE about why it wasn't - - getting CAUGHT in the lie and backtracking before LURKING - - Where's Mix, now?

Quote me on where i said it did.

I feel he lynched opportunistically
Lied about his reasons
Got caught in the lie and backtracked
Is lurking (presently)

Enough has happened for him to respond to.

That sounds almost like the Ace case, only Ace's case consist nothing but him continually lying from the start. So that means Mix has some wiggle room to flip town... not really any Ace though.

[dejkha]

Lynching opportunistically

Why fight so hard to lie about why?

Lying for a quick lynch

Why not lynch him for it right away?

[dejkha]

What have I done that was scummy? I've been scumhunting and for good reason - I choose not to ignore opportunity lynches in a game with FIVE villains and two dead townies

There's two scum groups, so you can be scum and still be scumhunting. Check 396 for my reasons on why you're scum.

There is no quote where you say that Ace's case does NOT outway Mix's -

Then don't imply that I said it, silly.

How can you agree my case holds more weight than Ace's, while at the same time condemn me for working with Mix's?

I'm not condemning you for working with Mix's case, but I don;t see how Mix's case is bigger than Ace's, so if you or Ace flips scum, I'll be sure the other is as well.

Now I'm hearing that Ace didn't lie just about the Dust meta - - he has aparently lied MULTIPLE times, and from the beginning of the game -
Can you please elaborate on that?

Assuming you want quotes to support this, Percy explained it perfectly in 496 as to how he was continually lying and misleading town.

Anyhow - -
If you agree they are the same, except "Ace has been lying from the start" - technically, Ace has more wiggle room to be town.

He hasn't been present, and none of his lies have hurt the town

Ace doesn't have more wiggle room because he was always lying. His lies played a part in outing our Seer and getting him killed. That hurt us quite a bit. Not that it matters whether or not the lies "hurt the town", but all it needs to have the intention to hurt town, which they all did.

Ace - Lied, and lurked

Mix - Opportunistically lynched, lied about his reasons why, backtracked the lie, lurked

They didn't lie about the same thing or at the same time and those are the factors that make Ace more scummy.

He did lynch him right away - he hammered and then put the reasons up hours after.

I was talking about Ace.

Quick lynch =/= Quick hammer

And Ace has done everything Mix has done except to a more extreme extent. He lied to the town in hope of a quick lynch, repeatedly lied to try and get out of it and has lurked the entire time after that. Mix hammered,

then

lied and only seems to be lurking at this moment.

[dejkha]

396 is you bitching about being misrepresented - - That's a very easy thing to do when you post like a nutbar - - like below

No, 396 is me showing why you're scum.

You made that STUPID comment of "Quote me where I said that" in regards to Mix/Ace case being stronger - - Why waste my time with shit like that when you KNOW you made your decision on what case you thought was stronger? TO CONFUSE

Why waste your time? I'm not. I was just proving the point on how you put words into my mouth and say that I say things that I never did. Asking you to provide quotes of things you know I didn't say isn't wasting your time.

In the bold there - - try making a decision on something before you cry "misrep" or whine some more - - you either think my case is stronger, or you don't - - there's your decision and I DO hope you don't flip flop again.

Quote me on where I flip flopped by saying both the Mix case was better and the Ace case was better. If you can quote me saying/impying that I said those both at different times, then ok. But if you can't, again, stop putting words into my mouth (or stop being stupid, whatever works).

Actually, if you bothered reading - - he pointed out one lie, and a lot of lurking.

Fine, then if that's not enough, check the top of post 152 and 154. Then later he was caught lying again when he said Dust could confirm it, but Dust denied it.

Dej is saying I'm scum because I'm not on the Ace wagon - - aside form him being a pouting child about it, I have (ADMITTEDLY!!! BLOODY ADMITTEDLY!!!) a reason to be on the Mix case, yet he is branding me as SCUM for not being on it?

Would anyone else like a quote of me saying this? I would. Seriously AA, all you have to do is quote me once saying things you claim and I'll lay off, but you HAVEN'T because you CAN'T. You're pathetic scum. You really are. This is the reason I think you're scum, because you're constantly lying.

AA, have you ever heard the phrase "You're making mountains out of molehills"? Well, that's your case.

[dejkha]

Dej. I'm sorry for the name calling.

If anyone is going to challenge whether I have a forest, don't point at my trees.

It's unintelligent.

Now is not the time to be talking about your twig and berries >_>

[dejkha]

No quote then? Alright cool. Point proven, people.

[dejkha]

Great scumhunting, Dej lmfao.....

I'm repeatedly catching you acting scummy nonstop. That is great scumhunting.

[dejkha]

I feel like this is just turning into a dejkha vs. AA23 game.

Maybe if you and others started taking part, it wouldn't be that way.

[dejkha]

I know but honestly I don't care about your guys' argument. If I had to pick a side I couldn't because I just don't think either side is really compelling.

Maybe if you got involved earlier, this wouldn't have been an issue since it wouldn't have been just me and AA. And we're both taking sides on why a particular lynch is better for this day and why people are acting scummy. If you can pick as side, then it's likely you don't agree with either of us.

[dejkha]

And I'm not ignorant to other cases - if you please read even slower, I'm saying that I am PRIORITIZING Mix.

He said you are ignoring the rest of the game, which you are. In this post:

What I think on any other player is irrelevent because I feel the MOST sure about priority one, Mix - - he's MY priority - -

You say that Mix is your priority,

so

what you think about anyone else is irrelevant which shows that you don't care about and are ignoring other cases.

And also:

lol you guys are laughable - - "AA, don't go after Mix jsut because you think he's scum and he's poorly defending himself, go after some OTHER possible scum!"

You laughed at and mocked us in this post for telling you to scumhunt elsewhere in addition to Mix, showing how you're ignoring the other cases. I love quotes, don't you?

[dejkha]

And believe it or not - that question wasn't even answered (rather disappointing)

Yes it was. I answered it twice. Once when it happened and another time when you asked later in the game.

You know why I'm voting - - It's for valid reasons - - there's nothing scummy about that.

By that logic, there wasn't anything scummy about my vote on Zwet, which you claimed it to be.

[dejkha]

I had reasons that 7 other people agreed with. And yes, I found reasons that fit to lynch him... that's why I voted for him.

Seriously, what is with the dashes? You use, like, only one period every post.

[dejkha]

I'm sorry, 6 other people

[dejkha]

You say I misrep. you and you seem to have confused misrepresenting with misunderstanding

When you state that we're saying things and claiming things that we aren't, that's not misunderstanding. Lying is the proper term for what you're doing, but misrepresenting is going easy on you.

It seems that in the desperation to get more votes on the Ace case - I am being tarred and feathered and called scum when all I'm doing is scum hunting - - it's cheap and lousy.

Again, scum can still scumhunt and you're not scummy for not for being on the wagon, but for inflating your case against Mix when Ace has much greater offenses.

we all play this game, and we all know that you don't post in other active games and forget about one that is far from a lull and rvs

Actually, I have once. But the point is that he's repeatedly saying he's gonna read, he's gonna read and never does. All he's doing is trying to stall and hope we don't lynch him until he catches up (he's probably actively reading, just not posting).

Nobody finds Emp's active lurking and vote on me an issue?

I noticed, but I don't think much of it even though he's normally very active. The last thing I'm gonna try to do is understand why a retard does what he does and the less he's posting, the less likely I'll get pissed off at the game. Not to mention how there are already people here you can get a read on that come off as scummy, but regardless of that, he should be lynched by the end of the game.

[dejkha]

I'm not sure how you mean the case has been "inflated".

He means AA is making it seem like a bigger offense than it is. Almost like asking him "Would you rather kick a baby or punch a baby?" No matter what he answers, he'll look bad.

[dejkha]

There's nothing inflated about my points

Difference of opinions, AA - stop trying to be a "bully" about it

I think you're playing very nasty - are inappropriate, rude, and once again, you're trying to plan another lynch based on your admitted prejudice.

You're totally right. That's an insult to retarded people. Emp is in his own category.

[dejkha]

Personal attacks are very necessary. But you're right, the critisms should be based on actual play. Emps play is also retarded.

You see what happens when someone brings him up? It's best not to get me started.

[dejkha]

Ace hasn't posted at all with any content whatsoever ever since suspicion fell upon him. At least Mix has tried to defend himself and answered most, if not all, questions. Mix also hasn't even posted on the site in 6 days. The last post he made was even in this game. The chances are that he's not even lurking, but just unable to post. This is not true with Ace.

[dejkha]

I don't think anything Aces replacement can say will keep him from being lynched.

[dejkha]

In every game I've played, the vote remains until the replacement unvotes (if they feel it's necessary).

[dejkha]

Can you explain your statement on how both suspects needing replacements makes Ace scummier?

I'll do it for him. Mix disappeared from the site and is being replaced at the mods consent. Ace purposely lurked this whole time while being active elsewhere on the site and requested a replacement. Due to Aces obvious lurking, his request makes him look scummier because it looks like he's given up. Mix hasn't been on the site, so he may just be having life issues that prevent him from posting, which obviously isn't the case for Ace. I don't mean to be an ass, but really, how the fuck didn't/don't you see that?

[dejkha]

(Keep your agressive nature down, too - - I have a special needs member in my family and have been more than tempted to report you)

Then report me. I didn't insult your family.

I would like to express concerns that Mix/whoever replaces him runs the risk of gaining immunity through this which I do NOT like WHATSOEVER - -

I'll probably lynch Ace regardless of what his replacement says. He's not getting any immunity from me.

[dejkha]

Actually, I think that was the 6th vote out of the 7 we need.

[dejkha]

My bad. I was still on Day standards =P

[dejkha]

Day one standards*

[dejkha]

Well, as we can see, even the scummiest people can be town. I can't believe that he was, but what are ya gonna do.

While Mix made a scummy hammer, I'll let Sotty give his thoughts on the game and take it from there.

For now,

Vote: Hewitt

[dejkha]

This is why I left everything to that meta investigation - - what's happening to the Mix case could have happened to both.

Sotty has NO insight to the inner workings of Mix - it was Mix alone who could have cleared that wagon

The most that can happy is Sotty naturally tries to point scum at someone else - and then Bam! Immunity to the Mix case - -

Same would have gone for Ace - -
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Doesn't matter if he was replaced or not, I still wouldn't be voting for him.

Are you gonna give a reason?

Do I really need to? Is it not that obvious? What have you done this game? Answered a few question directed to you and say you agree or disagree with so and so. It's like you only show up when someone references you or you pop up to say you agree or disagree with something. Ash, who was mafia, did the same thing and since you're normally much more active and helpful, I see no reason why you can't be scum with him.

[dejkha]

I want to hear detailed thoughts from Sotty on who the scum are and why.

Pronto.

That must be the most hypocritical statement made this game. Why don't

you

do that? (Don't answer, just do it)

And Dej
- Not to bash your scum-radar seeing as you've been early on two towny wagons, but don't you think all of your points on Hewitt exist in Emp, if not worse?

Yeah, but I'm not dealing with Emp now. If we get to lylo (though preferably not), or if no one's left that's particularly scummy, then I'll get rid of him, but right now, there are more priority suspects. Besides, it's not like I can question him when it's like talking to a brick wall (I actually find that the brick wall gives better answers).

You're going to 100% ignore the Mix points even after Ace flipped town?

I haven't ignored anything. Whether Ace was town or scum, Mix would still not have my vote yet. I find you and Hewitt more suspicious.

your scum reads are all wrong, and you are uncharacteristically giving Emp a pass in exchange for Hewitt?

Hewitt isn't playing like he normally does and Emp is hardly playing at all. Half the reason I ever want him lynched is because his posts make me want to kick a baby.

Well that's not entirely true. You would know more than anybody that there are certain games were I just don't get that into and generally tend to be unhelpful. If helpfulness is the sole criteria that you're basing your vote on that actually I might be okay with you voting for me in this game. But activity can be explained in my sig, I'm equally unactive in all three of my current games.

Fair enough, I didn't see that.

Unvote Vote: AA

[dejkha]

So Dej thought Zwet was scum, he flipped town - he thought Ace was scum with me, and Ace flipped town - - he voted Hewitt for reasons he could have voted Emp (and figured he'd save Emp for later...that doesn't sound suspiciously like saving someone for a utility lynch) - - and now he's changed his vote to me.

I'm sorry, are you gonna vote for Emp? No? How about any other 2 people? I doubt it. I'm not gonna waste a vote on someone that know one else will help lynch.

On the basis of? - I mean, Dej, you've been top notch scumhunting to this point lol wrong, wrong again, wrong some more, and now you're voting me based on what evidence?

Lol easy for you to say. You weren't even on a wagon day one and you were wrong with Ace also. You're doing no better. In fact, just because you weren't on a wagon Day 1 makes it seem like you did so on purpose to pass on blame when we mislynched. But, hey, you seem like a fair player, so I'll do the same: you helped out our Seer; our only PR. That was the worst mistake you could make, so don't attack me for a mislynch that may not have happened if it weren't for you and a few others.

I gave my reasons for suspicion of you a while back and I'm not gonna tell you where again, because it would be the third time. But add the above paragraph to the list. Every time I imply that you're scummy, you ask for reasons when they've been laid out right in front of you. In fact, you've lied and shown hypocrisy, which is 2/3rds of your Mix case. And that's only 2 of the things you've done. There's more.

[dejkha]

However these two posts have a errily similar tone. “Oh well we lynched town but they were totally scummy so it's okay.” He seems fine with following when the time comes (voted Ace on Mix's suggestion) and the only real case he has made has been against AA23. Vote is back there now I can understand/see why.

What do you want me to do? Cry about it. I'm not one for complaining about mislynches. I made it clear before Mix suggested that I vote for Ace, that I thought Ace and AA were both scum. Didn't matter who went first. Like I said to AA in my last post, I'm not gonna waste a vote on a wagon that isn't going anywhere. Ace did have a real case on him, I just didn't make a giant post containing it like I did for AA.

The first paragraph in this post is pretty much how I reasoned Dust's run up to lynch -1. Do you still hold any stock in this dej?

Yes. All IMO of course.

I also wanted to ask you about your Zwet/emp hate. I have heard about this from others but admittedly never seen it first had for myself. I would have thought that someone who hates emp as much as you say you would be pushing him a bit more.

I've said multiple times (in other games in which hewitt has been in) I'll lynch Emp whenever, but if there's a better case on someone I can read, then they'll take priority over Emp. I don't want him living past lylo though.

Is it more a “if I don't have any other ideas I'll lynch them” kinda hate? I always thought it was a “this game will suck until they die a hot death” kinda hate. I just feel li ke you are almost ignoring emp (and he you) unless he comes out and says something.

It's the "use your fucking brain" kind of hate. Just because of how he plays/thinks he automatically helps scum no matter what faction he's on (when he's active, at least). It's impossible to get a read on him, so it would be unwise finish the game without lynching him (because only stupid scum would kill him). I now try to take the approach of ignoring Emp in most games though occasionally he makes a post so void of thought, that I just lose it. Since he's hardly posting at all, this isn't the same as other games.

I also can't help but feel that a lot of the AA v dej v Percy back and forth was just one big distraction.

We were the only 3 active people. Everyone else was mass lurking.

@dej and AA: What was the game the two of you played in with each other? Could I have a link?

I'll let AA post the link if he wants. He was an alt and i dont know if he wants to keep it on the down low.

Vote Count

Sotty7 2 - AA23, Percy
AA23 1 - dejkha
Percy 1 - Sotty7

[dejkha]

Does anyone see a problem with lynching Thesp tomorrow?

[dejkha]

When I played with him in a 20 page plus game, he was town and was VERY careful about his prejudice resulting in the mislynch of a towny - - - in this game, not only is he seemingly proud of the prejudice, he in fact "Doesn't want Emp alive past lylo" - - that sounds like scum planning a mislynch, making Emp his scumtool.

Again one game means nothing. I wasn't even "careful" about my prejudice, I was careful about lynching another stupid townie I've never played with before. Hewitt can back me up on my prejudice without a doubt and I also think he was in games where I said not killing Emp would be unwise. If hewitt claims I'm lying, he's getting my vote and I'll get the quotes myself.

Sotty, I don't know if you remember from your first read through, but I showed how AA claimed to do a meta on me (to support most of the statements in the quote above) and lied about it. He tried to say I was careful in other games than the one we played together, which is a lie (and I proved it).

He's characteristically scummy (in light of the town game I played with him), he's been nothing but wrong in this game with his speculations,

and he lashes at anyone for the slightest hint of suspecting him which strikes me as nervous scum

(I would know, I have a habit of lashing out at people for not understanding/agreeing with me because I'm a narcissistic power-freak).

Remember in our one game we played together when you were scum? You left me alive until lylo, when I was wrong every time and I was town. And that was when I was the most pro-town person in the game. So that's actually a good point you're bringing up. The situation in the game is similar to this, so that makes it's more likely that you're scum, especially since you're trying to use that against me.

And for the bolded: THATS YOU ALL OVER! I don't remember once lashing out at anyone suspecting me, but I could find a lot more of you lashing out. Again, more hypocrisy and probably lies.

my aggressive and emotional behavior will be the death of my town play and

good cases

I lol'd at the bolded.

[dejkha]

Dej - you're an ignorant person, I'd be wasting my time pointing at all of your negative attitudes toward people - - I've toned down my gameplay significantly, but you sir - you've been a negative, mean spirited jerk in almost all of your posts within the last 10 pages.

I don't have to defend my opinion of you - I'm not voting you or taking official action based off of it, so move on.

I'm

ignorant? We're all ignorant. Why single me out?

It's hard not to be a negative, mean spirited jerk (thanks for the compliments, btw =D) when you're continually misrepresenting me with every word I make. And don't bother to deny it, because others have noticed as well.

Meta is meta - there is no official number of games someone has to play before they call it valid "meta".

True, but when someone's played the same in 10 games and then changes their play one time in a game where they're town, you don't base it all off that one game, fool... I mean, sir. That is not meta.

And as for the bolded - ----

If you're going to tell someone they were wrong to say you were being careful - - don't say you were careful in the same sentence.

If you're going to dare respond to my post, make sure you know what I was responding to.

You said: he was town and was

VERY careful about his prejudice

resulting in the mislynch of a towny
I said: I wasn't careful about my prejudice. I was careful about lynching another townie I've never played with before.

Are your arms tired yet, because I'd imagine all this word twisting can be harsh on them.

When your prejudice is to lynch two players you find stupid - - being careful not to lynch a stupid townie is being careful with your prejudice.

Not when that person is obviously an inexperienced newbie.

Don't throw words like "lie" around unless that's what they are.

You can say that you DENY those things, but as I have just shown in the above quote, you're clearly misrepresenting that event

Fine, maybe they're not lies, but they're definitely the opposite of truths.

Now, I know as a master of the art of misrepresenting, you'd know your stuff, but I proved you wrong. (again lol)

And the most protown person in that game was MadeofPhail.

When people think he's scum at some point and then people think I'm scum for "to town to be town", I'd have to disagree.

And as for your lashing out? You're quite snotty and snappy. In a LOT of your posts - - you strike me as nervous.

Again, he proves to have lied about my meta. I'm almost always snotty and snappy.

I'm not ashamed to acknowledge my faults and better myself, Dej,

You didn't acknowledge your not good case. More lies.

@Sotty, I have to say, in that long Percy case, I liked where it was going but still seemed kind of iffy, but that very last part in response to his Day 3 entrance won me over. It's not enough to make me change my vote, but I want to see what Percy has to say.

[dejkha]

Holy semantics...

It's not semantics, it's misrepresenting. What I said would be the same as us to argue with the sentences: "If you suck, your name begins with 'A'" and "If your name begins with 'A', you suck". They not the same thing and they have limitations.

You've been nothing but wrong in this game, admit that in your previous townie game with me (almost proudly) that you were constantly wrong - and now, just as you were fooled by me in the last game and wrong about my allignment, you are once again wrong

Well done Dej.

If there's one thing Sotty got right about you, it's your constant repetition. You seem to be fascinating yourself with it, especially since that quote had nothing to do with what I said.

DEJ - IN THIS FINAL QUOTE YOU DEMONSTRATE HOW YOU DISAGREE WITH ME, AND CONFUSE DISAGREEING WITH LYING.

I was half joking, smart guy. The joking part was the "more lies" part. I meant the other part though. I don't blame you though, it's the internet. Maybe if I said "moar lies"...

[dejkha]

Here's a quick response since I dont have time to read Percys defense yet.

For what I believe to be uncharacteristic playstyle.

Uncharacteristic playstyle?

Have I almost always voted Empking in the RVS? Yes
Have I always switched that vote to another player if they seem suspicious? Yes
Have I ever started an Empking wagon mid game? No
Has Empking ever not participated in a game to the point that I don't get pissed at him so much? No
Do these all hold true for this game? Yes. So how is this uncharacteristic play?

There was also another game where, like this one, I hardly ever commented on Emp when I was town.

[dejkha]

I just read over Percy's defense and it seems to me like it checks out for the most part, but I think they were legitimate concerns and I don't think Sotty was being opportunistic and misreping you.

I would also like everyone to post their top three suspects, and why they are suspicious to them.

So we can tell scum who to leave alive? As much as it pains me to say, Empking taught me the lesson that telling everyone your top 3 scummy players isn't very smart. And asking for everyones top 3 suspects is really only something Werewolves would want in this particular game. So no, I won't be giving you my top 3 scum suspects.

I view you as town the most though and I can't get much of a read on anyone else other than AA, since we're the most active.

Comments like "saving him for later" and not voting someone because you'd have "no help lynching" since nobody would hop on the wagon etc - - it seems scummy. You're flat out chasing lynches (and easy ones at that) instead of chasing villains.

Or, since I've always taken the same approach, it's my playstyle, and if anything, it's a nulltell. And if I was chasing easy lynches, then that would imply that neither of yesterdays top 2 suspects were scummy, which isn't true.

And if Hewitt and Emp were on equal (or worse of with Emp) standing, and it was the beginning of the day, and you always vote Emp and have a bias to hiim, and want a lynch - - - why Hewitt? What made you think you would have more "help", it's not like he had a bunch of votes on him, you could have easily started the wagon on Emp.

No one ever starts off at equal standings with Emp at the beginning. He's automatically the scummiest because of how he plays. And because it's impossible to read it, anything scummy he does is a nulltell, while if anyone else does it, it's scummy (assuming it's not part of their playstyle). I could have easily started a wagon on Emp, but for me, their was two options: you or someone I can get a read on, and since I doubt you'll reach a lynch today, I voted hewitt since I knew that wasn't how he normally plays.

- I'm feeling on equal ground between Mix and Dej. In addition to his behavior,

how unhelpful he's been (being wrong all the time)

, uncharacteristic game play, and his complete hatred and distancing from the Mix case - - it makes me think they're in league together.

First off, the bolded: WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU? WHEN WERE YOU RIGHT THIS ENTIRE GAME? NEVER! YOU WEREN'T PART OF A SINGLE FUCKING LYNCH THAT WAS RIGHT AND YOU ALMOST LYNCHED OUR SEER! AND THE CHANCES ARE, IF SOTTY'S LYNCH GOES THROUGH, THAT WILL STILL PROVE TO BE TRUE! SO SHUT THE FUCK UP AND START CATCHING UP ON "USING YOUR BRAIN FOR DUMMIES", BECAUSE SOMETHING TELLS ME YOU'RE WAY BEHIND!

Now the rest, why would I follow a concept I don't believe in? I told you I don't think buddying is scumtell, so why would I not only do that, but make it so obvious? Why would anyone make it so obvious?

@dejkha: How concerned are you that Empking is scum?

Depends on what you mean by "concerned". I don't particularly care if he's scum, because I assume town will be smart enough to lynch him. If he's scum it doesn't matter when he's lynched as long as it happens, so I'm not very concerned. If he's not scum, then oh well, at least there's one less Empking.

I don't get why you would vote for someone else for the same reasons why you would vote for Empking, and not vote for him instead. That's what I don't get.

Because no one can get a read on him, so it's null. On the other hand, I

know

that wasn't how you normally play since i can get a read on you.

dej knows this game all too well. Here Andytony (scum) latches on and buddies up with dej (town) and ends up winning the game.

I appreciate the compliment, but in a game like this, it's impossible for scum to buddy up to a townie since they don't know for sure who the townies are.

Note how many times you ask and suggest the summiness of at least three people in your attempts to take attention off yourself.

In a game like this, that's no reason to ignore any scumminess in other plays he brings up.

You got snotty with Thesp the moment he voted you - - the moment it didn't look like he'd be as useful to you as Dej

Ok, now this implies that you think he's "favoring" me because I'm not voting him, not because we're scumbuddies.

Dej really does seem like your villain buddy now. The man has been negative, rude, prejudice, wrong in every one of his suspicions, admittedly wrong in other games, and suspiciously quiet toward Emp which if you check his wiki (well organized Smile ) you'll see that whether he votes Emp, investigates, fos's, or ANYTHING -

Dej never lets Emp sit too quiet or play the way he is now.

"Never" is such a delicate word, especially when you use it incorrectly. There has been a game where I payed almost no attention to him, fool. Since you were at my wiki, I'd assume you'd take the time to do an actual meta on me, rather than continuing to lie about it.

Makes sense you don't suspect Dej for ANY of the above reasons - why? Because he doesn't want to lynch you. And that's valuable to you - villain.

So what is it, AA? Do I really look like his scumbuddy? Because this post also implies that you think he's just using me rather than us buddying. You can't have it both ways.

If anyone has been 100% manipulative psychological attacking AA, it's you.

^QFT, right there! Definitely.

Also I laughed out loud about you complaining about my posts being huge. “Hi Mr Pot? Yeah it's Mrs Kettle calling... Ah huh... Oh good, and you? Great! Well just wanted to let you know... You're black!”

XFD

I don't think you'll invest much time scumhunting Dej because he's your best friend as in "He's not voting you, and is hating on your main scumhunter".

That settles it, you never thought we were scumbuddies, you just liked the way it sounded since it would be so easy to convict me with it.

[dejkha]

And I was part of One lynch, and it was for a good reason - eliminate confusion between two growing wagons.

You sir, are worse off then me as far as track records with being wrong is concerned - starting with Zwet, and ending with thinking I'm a villain.

Yeah, you were part of one lynch so you could throw around the blame for the other. And if i weren't for you, I may not have been wrong about Zwet, because if you hadn't gotten our Seer out in the open, that suspicion never would've happened. So, you can thank yourself for that. You track record for being wrong is no better than mine. Let's see, you were wrong about Dust, you were wrong about Ace and you'll more than likely be wrong about Mix (and if you are, I'll shove that fact down your throat).

Please link to that.

And then explain how out of your entire wiki, one instance overpowers a heavy meta of you doing precisely what I said you do.

And then let us know what your allignment was in that one game.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10778

The conditions were the same as this game and that's why it overrides my meta. He was less active than normal, I was more involved with the active players and he wasn't particularly annoying when he posted. In fact, I only responded to one of his posts and it was in a normal manner and that was the only time I mentioned him at all. It's all the same in this game. I was town.

That game and this game were the same in that respect and I've behaved the same toward him both times. It's only when he's keeping up with everyone else in activity that his posting gets unbearable. So you should consider this a nulltell at the very least.

You can be going easy on your scumbuddy

And he can be using that to his advantage.

Like a relationship.

Partners.

Look at that, you narrowed it down to one word. The one word that could've been used instead, but you didn't. Stop with the excuses.

This is both puzzling and hypocritical...

Can YOU have it both ways, Dej?

Can I be mindless, hot headed, and ranting, yet APPARENTLY be capable of manipulating and psychologically twisting this game? It seems highly unlikely since I've been the black sheep for the most part.

I never said I wasn't something when I actually was. You did, smartass.

(I get chauvenistic and prickish when I slip into a defensive mode)

You hide it well.

So your vote was pretty much 100% based on uncharacteristic gameplay from myself? Which was then resolved by you looking at my other active games and noticing that I was inactive in pretty much all of them?

Yes, I noticed you were less active than I've known you to be after you pointed it out.

I want people to start talking about other players in this game. Yes, it does have the unwanted side effect of identifying who would be an easier lynch to push, but can you think of another way to get people talking?

I understand, but I'm not going to add to it. And others seem to have already given their 3 suspects,so you've gotten something out of it.

What do you mean by the word "scummiest"/"scummy"? I think there's some language confusion between what you're saying and what I'm hearing from you on this.

I guess I could say, by default he should be the first to go, because his play is the scummiest. Like, if we had to lynch right off the bat, he should always be the first choice. I can't think of another way to say it =/

Ha! This is will be sigged at the conclusion of the game. It's just so false it's good.

Lol, I know. Isn't AA just full of side splitters? He's a funny fella sometimes.

And I like your observation of Ash's vote on Dust following AA's. It could be coincidence, but as AA is a suspect, it's not something to let slip by.

[dejkha]

The fact is, no one has been right so far in this game. The only dead scum we have came from a night kill from the other scum fraction.

No one is looking too hot at this point so playing the blame game as far as lynches go is just fail. The argument can be applied to pretty much everyone.

I bring it up once in response to him saying it over and over again and you tell me that? Where's AA's lecture?

[dejkha]

This is circular - if he should be the first to go because his play is the "scummiest", what do you mean by

"scummy"/"scummiest"

? I'm asking because this is important to understanding what you are saying - I'm not trying to be difficult.

That's the best way I can think to explain it. It doesn't seem that hard.

AA, the conditions are the same in that game as they are in this game and my reaction to him is the same. You're just trying to bypass it because it would ruin your theory and you can't handle that because I just shot down your only support.

And do trust I've read them.

When you continue to lie about meta, why would anyone trust you on the matter?

[dejkha]

No, Dej, that's my point.

You've given me once intance, Dej. One instance (and a weak one at that - extremely weak).

I'm telling you that meta is STRONGER and more substantial in saying your behavior to Emp in this game is contrary to your normal gameplay with him.

One game doesn't overpower the rest of your meta

, Dej, simple as that

No, that one game does override my meta, because everything's the same, just like everything was the same in all the other games. In games where Emp lies low, I don't acknowledge him so much, and that's a fact that cannot be disproven. So either, you deny this because it'll ruin your theory or because you're just stupid. If it's the latter, I'll cut you some slack, but it still won't excuse you.

I am not asking you to explain why you dislike Empking. I am asking you what you mean by the word "scummy". To say that "scummy" means "scummy" is unhelpful. Please try again - this is important to me.

I know what you want me to explain and I gave an example as to what I meant. I just can't see what's so hard to understand about it and I can't think of a way to make it any simpler.

[dejkha]

Ok, I'll take the dictionary approach.

Scummy - To play as Mafia might.

Isn't that generally what "scummy" means?

[dejkha]

Stop with you negativity and name calling already.

My opinion stands strong on the meta.

I'm not "name calling", if you seriously can't understand a concept as simple as that, then I can't imagine you having an IQ above what would make you legally retarded. So your "opinion", even though that's not what it is, stands strong and wrong.

Good - now the second part - can you clearly list, explain, and attach said player's to what they did that mafia would.

A bunch of things. I don't have the time nor patience to look through all of his games and find them.

[dejkha]

That said, dejkha, why do you post your scumreads in post 172 but refuse to do so now? What has changed?

The time. It was Day one when I first posted my suspicions. During Day 1, leads and suspicions are hardly concrete. It's now Day 3; the numbers have thinned and connections can be made. If those suspicions are wrong, they're a perfect guideline to tell scum who to kill or not kill and who to concentrate on during the Day. So my vote is the only suspicion you need to be aware of. That's not to say I don't have others, but town and scum alike will have to be paying attention to the thread to see them.

[dejkha]

Actually, I think town have the highest percentage don't they? It's 4-2-2 (town-scum-ww). So no, I'm not ready to lynch Empking yet. Town or WW may lynch/kill scum today or tonight anyway. There's a few ways tomorrow can end up, so I'll determine then. But I really want AA lynched...

[dejkha]

Please. Please stop being derrogatory toward the mentally handicap, and please stop being nasty.

Just because I use the word "retarded" doesn't mean I'm being derogatory. Don't be so politically correct.

When you have the time to scum hunt and be clear about what you mean when you call someone "scummy" - then post. I didn't know you lacked patience or care to actually play the game.

Well, now you do.

[dejkha]

Oh, now I understand. I'd rather not lynch him today, because I think town and WW's are both gunning for a mafia kill so the chances of scum being dead by tomorrow aren't low. But I will if others want to. Like I said before, I'm not wasting as vote, especially now when I find others particularly scummy.

[dejkha]

dej, your 'wait and see' approach is unsound, if you have the Town's best interest at heart.

Your assertion that the town are gunning for a mafia kill is also unsound.

My bad. I assumed lynching mafia was a good thing. I need to remember to avoid such foolish behavior as to pursue a mafia lynch. Thanks.

Finally, there is a 47% chance that both the scum will live until tomorrow. This is also "not low".

I said the chances of scum being dead by tomorrow aren't low. That would make my side of it the 53% which isn't low, like I said.

With tomorrow's lynch being so crucial, and your stated dread of having Empking around for the endgame, I invite you now to place your vote on Empking, or tell me why I should believe there's a better-than-average chance Empking is Town.

Then I invite you to join me on the Empking wagon, otherwise I'll have to decline your invitation. And I never (ever) said there was a better-than-average chance of Emp being scum or town, I said everything he does is null.

What doesn't make sense to me is Dej's relationship with Sotty.

What's so hard to understand? I don't like your weak case on him.

The wolves gaining up on me, trying to push for a mislynch at my demise so they can have one towny down (me) then be put into their free NK.

^In this post, more scummy wifom and the assumption that anyone knows who town is. Did you know when you assume, you make an ass out of yourself? (truth)

My vote stays on you unless I see you vote Dej, I think (and in the event of that happening, my vote would follow onto Dej). Otherwise, I'll have to assume you're his Wolfbuddy.

XFD At least AA can think for himself. Oh wait...

AA, what would your next course of action be, if Sotty flips mafia?

Percy, in the event that we must get a WW kill, we'll need any remaining mafia members to claim otherwise we both have a good chance at losing. I don't mean to say that as if you're mafia, just throwing it out there.

[dejkha]

Final - to clarify - it's not instruction, it's an out loud annoncement of how I'm

attempting to approach

the game (logically)

Fix'd

[dejkha]

The wolves gaining up on me, trying to push for a mislynch at my demise so they can have one towny down (me) then be put into their free NK.

^In this post, more scummy wifom and the assumption that anyone knows who town is. Did you know when you assume, you make an ass out of yourself? (truth)

Ladies and Gentleman. He first proved to have poor attitude and negativity in the game - - and now, hypocritically,

Dej has directly misrepresented me.

Next time use the whole post, Dej

Vote Count

Sotty7 3 - AA23, Percy, Thesp
AA23 2 - dejkha, Empking
Percy 1 - Sotty7
dejkha 1 - Hewitt

Sotty7 is -2

This is the votecount from top of page 27 - -

With that theory of mine, it

would look like

:

The wolves gaining up on me, trying to push for a mislynch at my demise so they can have one towny down (me) then be put into their free NK.

That "would look like" doesn't change anything. You still assume that someone knows who town is. So you made an ass out of yourself, while trying to prove that you didn't. Very nice.

[dejkha]

That "would look like" doesn't change anything. You still assume that someone knows who town is. So you made an ass out of yourself, while trying to prove that you didn't. Very nice.

I'm saying Thesp and Percy, IF they were scum, would know that anyone who was not THEM are either town or wolf.

So yeah. I'm assuming they would know.

lol you're funny.

Nah, you're funnier. Especially since you didn't even mention Thesp or Percy, just WW's and you don't think they are. There's no way around what you said. You assumed the WW know who town is, you made an ass out of yourself for a third time. Wanna go for another?

[dejkha]

Dej, you seem content to bicker with AA, who do you think is a wolf and why?

Hard to say. I can't find the difference between my suspicions that would make any of them more likely to WW or mafia. None of my suspicions are based on interactions with Ash, since there were hardly any.

[dejkha]

@Dej
Where am I saying wolf's know who town are? Why is this important?

This hardly seems important, Dej, it's another difference of opinions, if you don't care for my thoughts, you're free to do that, but it just seems like you have no scumhunting left in you - - just the will to bicker with me.

So: Peace, Dej.

You said WW are trying to get a mislynch on you. That would imply that WW's know you're town. Now, that's obviously impossible, but it does help the case against you. That assumption and the wifom go perfectly together.

Sotty, AA is now WW suspect of mine.

[dejkha]

for the record

Vote Count

Sotty7 3 - AA23, Percy, Thesp
AA23 2 - dejkha, Empking
Percy 1 - Sotty7
dejkha 1 - Hewitt

Sotty7 is -2

Dude. I suggested I had two wolves ganging up on me. - - the wolves know who they are, they are left with only town and scum opposed to them- - they know.

I suggested both mafiascum were teaming on the Mix wagon - - both scum know who they are - - anyone else is either town or wolf - - they know.

You're wrong, Dej, I'm not making an ass by saying that - - if anything, you're digging a hole - - a pointless hole.

Lynching scum is not a mislynch, so the point still stands.

[dejkha]

and it's a MISLYNCH because I'm town and I know I'm town.

Don't you get it, numb nuts? It doesn't matter what

you

know. It matters what

they

know. They don't know who's town and the fact that you're insisting they do, only helps the case against you.

Logic and calculation will prevail here

This implies you're being logical. More lies.

[dejkha]

I'm not insisting they know I'm town, I was SUGGESTING that lynching ME together and getting their free NK would be something they WANT because it would eliminate their enemies (town/scum)

Let's see: You said you think they're trying to mislynch you. You say you're town. That implies they know you're town. No joke, I could probably explain this to a brick wall and it would understand before you would.

[dejkha]

Can't we all just agree with the fact that AA has done more lying, misrepresenting and word twisting than anyone else here? I'd say all that constitutes a lynch.

Vote Count

AA23 2 - dejkha, Empking
Sotty7 2 - AA23, Thesp
Percy 1 - Sotty7
dejkha 1 - Hewitt
Empking 1 - Percy

[dejkha]

You have a theory, based on a hypothesis. It's a stupid theory, and unwarranted, stupid hypothesis. You spend more time in each post defending these ever-shifting theories in the face of obvious, rather than trying to look at the game outside of your tunnelled views. Every time you change your theory, you

demand

to be taken seriously, when you haven't shown a clear line of thought between your positions. It's like you sit at your keyboard and tap whatever floats through your brain, heedless of anything that's gone on in the game unless it confirms with whatever theory you most recently remember. You misrepresent, twist and lie your way into whatever sounds like the most convenient explanation. You are also incredibly defensive.

Yet you try to paint yourself as the best, most pro-town, logic-lovin' poster there is. And you really believe that it's true.

It makes me want to

cry

.

I'm shopping around more than Dej telling people "puh-puh-pweese can we just lynch AA?"

What he is doing is not shopping around.
You change your mind on who the scumteam is and who we should lynch all the time. At least dej is consistent. That's exactly what I'm pointing out - you are completely inconsistent, all the time, changing targets, all the time. How can you not see this. How. How. HOW.

You just want to turn whatever I said into an attack on dej. Do whatever you can to get dej lynched. If someone doesn't like someone, make it mean they should like dej even less. Turn an attack on you into an accusation of defending dej. Whatever it takes. Am I right?

I love you.

[dejkha]

I knew I forgot something.

You

invite

me

?!

I am voting Empking. You are not. Why aren't you?

We don't need a werewolf lynch today, though it is preferable to relying on one tomorrow. If you want Empking out of the endgame, you need to lynch him today.

FoS: dejkha

Well, I remember you voting Mix/Sotty but don't remember you unvoting

So what the hell

Unvote Vote: Empking

It would be a lot better if others join in though. Hewitt perhaps, since I recall him saying he wouldn't mind an Emp lynch.

[dejkha]

dejkha, why do you think we should lynch people? (I'm going somewhere with this - I think the meta-theory on this is important.)

For people in general, I think they should be lynched for scummy behavior and/or playing unlike themselves when compared to similar game situations/conditions. Not so much in Emps case though. He should just be lynched for being him.

I don't think everything he does is "null", even if he is more difficult to read. I have noticed that he responds to almost all questions levied against him (I don't recall him missing one of mine), yet you seem content to lob meta-hate at him rather than inquire towards him so as to determine his alignment. That's disturbing.

When a question to him ultimately leads to him calling me scummy for questioning him, I don't see the point.

However, what is making me feel more uncertain about him personally is the prevailing attitude of not talking about people he thinks are scum, or really asking questions of anyone except AA. I'd like for him to be more involved in the rest of the game, really, and ask questions. He may just be a player who keeps his cards close to his chest, and this is my first game with him and I don't trust a single word out of AA's mouth so I can't judge on meta, but I really do think full disclosure time is fast approaching.

Believe it or not, I rarely take the approach of asking questions. They more likely come in the form of comments that that person responds to. I'm fairly suspicious Thesp, but I can't really ask much questions to a guy that didn't feel the need to give his opinion until very recently, except for"why did he wait"? And that was already answered when I questioned it earlier. For everyone else, they're not saying as much as some of the more active posters, but they also don't seem very scummy.

Khamisa - post 148 - - he corrected my own mistake on the set up and expressed a good knowledge of the set up. I think in light of this, that he is planting that, and you, Thesp, are hopping on it because he could be your buddy.

I see where you're going with this, but that and how it appeared she was unaware of that both tug me in an opposite direction, leaving me right where I started. But, you refer to it as her correcting your own mistake when after that post you explain how it wasn't a mistake. Why is it a mistake now?

I appreciate you looking back for that, but I don't think you should incriminate Thesp because he got the notion of her being town, because I'm sure a lot of people didn't remember post 148.

If my read is correct on Dej, he seems to have been hunting townies and scum (the only targets that remain for a Wolf, since he knows who his partner is - MIX)

This implies Zwet and Ace were not scummy. Why would you vote for Ace if he wasn't scummy? Not two mention how that logic could be applied to anyone who was on both wagons, but you continue to single me out for some reason. That post also implies that I know who town and scum are, which is also impossible.

No suspicions on Mix, the person I regard as his potential wold partner.

No suspicions on hewitt either. Neither of them posted much up to that point so I forgot to include them.

His wolf buddy Dej seemingly made a point NOT to suspect him throughout the entire game,

No, I made the point that I DONT suspect him. I never said I'll never suspect him. More lies. It never ends, does it? Yet, you still expect people to take you seriously.

Right now I think he is fixating on AA. While I can understand and even emphasize with his frustrations I don't think he is paying enough attention to the rest of the game. I have to wonder if this constant back and forth bickering that the two of them have going isn't helping dej hide to a certain degree. Fair enough he does answer questions leveled at him and even defends himself when necessary, but when it comes to actually hunting scum... I'm not really feeling a lot of that from him which is troubling.

I've actually played that like that once while town. I've been in a constant back and forth with someone who deeply suspected me and when that happens, a lot of the times it's hard for me to get out of defending myself from that one person. I forget the name of the game, but it was a Mod Abandoned open game in New York if you want to check it out.

Since Percy backed out.

Unvote Vote: AA

Vote Count

Sotty7 2 - AA23, Thesp
dejkha 2 - Hewitt, Percy
Empking 1 - dejkha
AA23 1 - Empking
Percy 1 - Sotty7

[dejkha]

It's not a matter of where solid votes went - - it's the matter of where your investigative scope directed itself - -

you have a habit of trying to "sum up" what I say, and in the process, you misrepresent it (ironically) - please stop.

You said I'm hunting townies. That would mean I voted for two people that specifically weren't scummy. Why would you do the same thing with Ace?

You're misrepresenting me again.

You seem to feel that things need to be literal and direct to be "true".

It is

fair

for me to say that you have been a bold voice that has NOT been

for

the Mix vote.

It would be very ignorant of you to suggest I'm wrong saying that you are against the Mix vote.

You said I made a point NOT to suspect Mix the entire game. That means that I made the point that I would never suspect him, which I didn't. It's not misrepresenting when that's what you said.

That's your reason?

So Dej. When you're not bickering, and are admittedly not scumhunting via asking questions - - can you explain how I am worthy of a vote?

And do let the reasons be better than "just for being AA" - - what you think works for Emp doesn't jive well for everyone else, I'm sure.

It all comes down to your massive wifom, constant lying, misrepresenting and word twisting in order to put things in your favor and incriminate others. I can't see how anyone else can be considered scummier than someone who repeatedly does these things to no end. Even if you were a tunnel visioned townie, there's no reason to do these things. So quite frankly I'm a little confused as to my anyone isn't voting you.

I think you're reacting to the pressure, Dej.

Whoa, whoa, whoa... since when do you think?

[dejkha]

Dej, as a wolf, it wouldn't matter who you're after, everyone is the enemy - I'm pointing out that in accordance to my suspicions, as a wolf, your attempts to vote and kill opposition were paralelled to Mix, making you partners.

You both had the same reads on who were mafiascum - - they are on the same people I regarded as such - -

You say that because I was part of a two town lynches, that I am hunting town. Why do me and mix have to be werewolves hunting town? Why can we not be mafia hunting scum, but instead had mislynches and Ash was our partner? Or why can we not both be town and just had mislynches? Like Percy said, all you're doing is saying things so they work with your theory.

Now it's just annoying, Dej.

Fine:

Dej, have you ever had any positive thoughts toward presented suspicions, cases, or votes toward Mix?

Did you ever want anything to do with a wagon on him?

Was I wrong to infer that you boldly wanted nothing to do with the Mix Wagon? (and do trust everyone else is following this absurd issue you're making over nonesense)

1. Only that the hammer was a scummy thing to do, but I didn't feel like it was anything to make a big deal out of.
2. Not for the reasons you do. Possibly if something else came up.
3. You are correct, I wanted nothing to do with the Mix wagon, for reasons you presented.

Hypocritical.

lying, misrep, and word twisting are all one thing in any context you choose to present it.

Furthermore - they are all opinionated - - we've all seen what you regard as a LIE.

When you say people have said things they haven't, that's lying. And you've done that on many occasions.

If you think I'm mistaken on something or have poorly inferred something - call that out - but saying it's a lie and voting me for it (while hypocritically playing a word game to make one point seem like many) just to vote me?

When you're lying, misrepresenting and twisting words, why would I not vote you for it?

That's weak. And it's reaching. And THAT'S why I think you're reacting to pressure.

Again, since when do you think?

**Any poor inference or misrepresentation by means of "summarizing" interpretations that I'm illegedly guilty of are things you yourself have done. For every one count you find of me inferring something differently or misreping, I can find two for you**

Then how come most people have made mention of you doing these things, yet you seem to be the only one that has made mention of me doing them? Who cares, you'd probably misrep what I said in order to find two for every one you did.

Oh and just a side note - - your entire case is opinionated and only attempts to prove I've been a rushy and poorly phrased player - - I've done none of the forementioned things to achieve scum goals of any sort.

Lying, misreping and twisting words are a good way to make town lynch someone not on your faction, believe it or not.

Manipulate people? I've had everyone against me!
Lie? That's your opinion - - why would I risk lying about something stupid and small that achieves nothing, anyhow?

I don't recall saying you were manipulating anyone, so I never accused you of lying about that (not sure where you got that idea). I'm only accusing you of lying about things that you have in fact lied about.

So once again, Dej - I see you reacting to pressure. That's all.

Apparently stupidity and pressure come in the same package.

**And for the record - I know we're having another head a tete, but I'd like to thank you for being more civil - I can notice already and will happily reciprocate the maturity.

I'm happy to answer questions, I'm happy to hear you out - -

we just need to learn to settle on agreeing to disagree

Let's not get ahead of ourselves now. I'll be more civil, but not quite civil. Let's not put things in stone. And can you please take a second before you post to think of anything else you have to say? Almost every time you post it's followed by another for a double post.

[dejkha]

Because you show a relationship with one other person (making two in total which equals wolf) - - and you and that other person seemed to have been hunting toward three other people who I reckon are Scum - - it's a matter of numbers that determined the alignment.

You and Mix were interested in the same people and played alike.

We don't show a relationship. What we show is a lack of a relationship and that's why you think it's scummy. That's a horrible way to think of things. That's the equivalent to saying anytime anyone ever suspects the same people, but not each other they must be scum. Given how many times that happens in mafia, it's rarely true.

The theory developed in observing you and others - - I didn't form the theory out of a hat and play a game to make it fit.

That's not how you formed it, but that's how you're supporting it.

Hypocritical.

One of my PRIMARY reasons was that the hammer was scummy. You only now voice that you agree with that point?

Maybe I should've rephrased that: it was a scummy thing to do, but I didn't think it was anything to make a big deal out of.

Well in the above quote (about manipulation), you imply that the reason I illegedly lie is to twist thought processes in the town to my own devicces? THAT is manipulating.

That's really all you needed to say, I just didn't think of it like that.

Are you a liar?

You think I'm a liar for calling you scummy for something that you actually did? I'm not surprised.

**Keep this in mind.

Picture my hate for you.

I told you that thinking I weren't town would be stupid. That thinking I were a villain would make you WRONG again.

And I told you that you are, in fact, stupid. So that actually counters you thinking that.

Is it really that hard to believe me? To believe that I look forward to gloating in your face at the endgame about how terrible you are at this game? How you were early on two town wagons with passion, and furthermore were wrong about me just as you lost your town in our previous game for being wrong about me then?

Count the "wrongs" Dej.

I would, but I'm trying to get past how retarded you are. Guess it's a family thing. Trust me, that's much more distracting. Don't get me wrong though, it hasn't completely gotten you yet because you're still able to form coherent sentences, granted I've never actually seen a retards writing ability but I can't imagine it's very good.

I want you to picture it. The town (whether win or lose). I want you to picture me laughing at you in the endgame.

*Pictures it* Sorry, but when I think of you laughing, this is all that comes to mind:

Nobody on this forum is illogical enough to invest a single moment in your silly statements about me being a liar and manipulating this town.

XD, except you, dumbass.

I don't have any major leadership sway of any kind and I've risked my life in this town trying to save it from people like you with theories like mine.

When your theories are based purely off of something that could've happened whether I'm town or scum, it's not saving anyone. So either you're to proud to admit it (which would mean you lied) or you really are that stupid. And I've said, if you admit to the latter then I'll cut you some slack. If you're honest for once it would actually have a desirable effect.

Clean up your act - get off my case - and try actually playing the game (hint - questions and interrogating are a good place to start - - oh, and thinking for yourself based on observations) - -

The only way I'll get off your case is if you extract some of the extra air out of your head and inject it right into my veins.

Oh boy, that was fun. I wasn't too harsh was I? It's official though, you're worse that Empking. You're like Empking if he had a giant ego and a retarded family member.

I'll admit though, it was enjoyable reading that last bit of your post, I just couldn't get the smile off my face.

[dejkha]

At least I can read the thread without you here before my inevitable replacement. Totally worth it though.

[dejkha]

Why are you worried about someone calling you scummy?

The point is that you can't get any helpful answers from him. That regardless of what you ask him it will always end with him calling you scummy because you're not satisfied with his awful, awful answers. Anytime Percy was questioning him it shouldn't have been terribly hard to see that he wasn't getting anything other than typical Emp.

[dejkha]

This feels like a defeatist and short-sighted approach. After all, why not gauge what sorts of answers he gives when he's scum as compared to when he's town? I suspect there will be some nuanced differences.

They're all the same to me: stupid answers. Like he purposely always treats the game purely like a joke.

(For what it's worth, I think I've gotten useful answers from him, even if they are difficult answers.)

I'm sorry you think so...

[dejkha]

Lulz, this is awesome.

You heard the man, Thad. Off with my head.