Open 143: Jungle Republic (Game Over!) before 787

[zwetschenwasser]

I'm not pushing for a counter. It just seemed helpful.

Vote Count

Dust 3 - AshMC1984, AceMarksman, AA23
zwetschenwasser 3 - Khamisa, dejkha, Percy
AA23 1 - Gorckat
Ash 1 - Mixologist

[AA23]

I'm expressing that it's unhelpful to town and extremely hepful in villans securig a mislynch and a igificant nightkill

-- I don't mean this rhetoriclly, but how would it help us?

[zwetschenwasser]

can you please stop spelling villains wrong? It messes with my head...

[AA23]

Villains it is.

Can you explain how the counterclaim would have helped the town?

[zwetschenwasser]

It would have lynched confirmed scum.

[AA23]

my keyboard fucks up my g's, i's, and s's

[AA23]

In counterclaiming, we're giving the enemy 100% knowledge of who they should nightkill, in not doing so, we are still taking our chances with the lynch on the suspect who claims (and the reactions of villains in the heat of a trial).

I'd rather call a bluff than show the enemy our cards

[zwetschenwasser]

I realize that now.

[AA23]

It's okay - - In the event of a counterclaim, there is always the question of countering.

I think I'd like to hear from Ace and Ash.

They're the only ones on the wagon with me and they haven't presented a case, explained their vote, or contributed in a bit.

FoS: Ace & Ash

[AA23]

EBWOP* In the event of a CLAIM

[AshMC1984]

unvote

I'm here. I've been busy. Catching up now....

[zwetschenwasser]

Hello

[Dust]

Oh, thank God! I'm not dead! I was so afraid someone would quick hammer while I was at work and SAT prep...

Alright, since I'm not in mortal danger right now, I'm going to start a reread. I think now we have an incredible amount of information, even if the method of gaining it was a bit risky.

[AA23]

No fun for me wihout the risk

I think I trust the reasons at this point for the first few vote withdrawls -

I think Ace and Ash could use some attention - I'd still like them to answer for their actions.

There was no quickhammer, villains were on that wagon whether the one being voted for is one or not - -

[AshMC1984]

'Kay - all caught up. How dramatic! As I've said I've been busy. My random vote remained on Dust because I hadn't updated it. Now that I've all caught up I am still tempted to slap my vote right back where it was, for the reasons others have stated, especially AA23, most notably Dust's flip-floppery. I won't do that however because of the claim. However

IGMEOY.

I will

vote: zwet

If Dust is telling the truth, your vote placing him close to lynch without a decent explanation is scummy. Also the CC fishing thing.

[Mixologist]

Ash, do you believe Dust's claim or no?

Vote on Ash stays for now. Above post seems very off to me.

[Empking]

Hello

Why did you post that?

[gorckat]

I had quite the weekend. I'll be catching up later tonight.

[AceMarksman]

@AA, I've been LA, what do you want from me? I'm swamped, but I have some access today. Jesus.

Unvote

[AA23]

Ace, no need to get frustrated or worked up - - I'm in no rush - - Good luck on your exams -

For when you get back - just want you and Ash to explain your actions in voting, keeping votes, (pulling off), and your opinion on the circumstances.

I've exhausted my own and am chilling till you two and others get back

[AceMarksman]

Reasons why I voted: See my explanation and my Dust meta (a few pages ago)
Reasons why I stayed: My LA
Reasons for pulling off: He claimed an un-countered seer. That's good enough for me.

opinions: This is tricky. While Dust has done some scummy actions (and I don't like the circumstances of his claim ("Don't kill me, I'm the seer")), the lack of a counterclaim makes me think he is town (if you are seer and dust is not, please don't CC. We need our only PR to not be outed kthxbai).

[AA23]

I agree that "tricky" is a way to put it.

The case I made on Dust was enough to vote him, but not condemn him - - it was agreeably risky, but good enough to see the responses of people placing him at L-1 and then reacting to the claim.

A main reason he remains safe is the absence of a counter claim, and it's an absence we prefer which makes it all the more harder to trust his initial claim - -

A way to find out the truth would be gambling and lynching him, but that would be wildly redundant if the claim holds true, so I almost feel like that's out.

Unvote: Dust

---------------------
Which directs my attention in the direction to the wagon. Dust was at L-1 and remained alive.

L-1 status, in a game with 5 villains and 7 to lynch with no hammer/quicklynch makes me curious as to who was on that wagon.

We had 6 counting myself.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

1. If Dust is indeed seer, was it 3 mafia, to werewolves and a towny?

2. If Dust were mafia, could the wagon have been all towny and both wolves (hence no quickhammer as mafia would not kill their own?

3. Why would Dust specifically claim seer? In a scenario where there is one power role, would it not be more responsible to claim towny/not scum? That way, you're not really lying, nor are you setting yourself up for a nightkill anyhow and thus defeating the purpose - - I'm actually asking, I'm not familiar with the ethics behind claiming

[dejkha]

3. Why would Dust specifically claim seer? In a scenario where there is one power role, would it not be more responsible to claim towny/not scum? That way, you're not really lying, nor are you setting yourself up for a nightkill anyhow and thus defeating the purpose - - I'm actually asking, I'm not familiar with the ethics behind claiming

Whenever people say they're a townie, it's assumed vanilla and even if they claim that, the lynches will still go through. If he claimed not scum, the lynch would still probably go through, but would still hint at him being Seer. Either way, he'd more than likely be dead after Night 1 and his direct claim keeps us from mislynching him for sure (as far as we know).

[Khamisa]

I feel special. I'm not answering Percy's question, and I'd like to ask dust to post a completed game where you kill the RVS as town.

I absolutely hate this post. It appears you feel special because you are doing anti-town things.

Dust, I think you should claim. (REmember if he false claims Seer don't counter claim)

This wasn't a good idea, Empking. Now Dust, if scum, was quickly clued in to what he should do to save himself. It almost looks like you could be scum buddies.

I'm saying 4 because it's how the number would work in my head for those two scenarios - - two pairs

What? If there are 5, you should work it out in your head to be five. This just sounds like a bad coverup now.

Current Suspects:
zwet (for wanting counterclaim and post mentioned above)
Empking (due to putting the "don't counterclaim out there for Dust to easily see it)
Dust (due to Empking's post)
AA23 (for his slip/coverup)

[Dust]

*Guys, I'll be sporadic for the next couple of weeks, but I'll try to put in at least one post a night, so I won't call V/LA*

I agree with AA that wagon analysis is really key here, especially from my prospective, knowing that I'm not lying.

I'm inclined to say that AA is town, just based on gut feeling. His behavior doesn't smell of scum, at least to me. That said, I'm going to base the following assumptions on AA being town. If AA is not town, it's probably safe to say that the following assumptions are all wrong. *AA, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. You need only specify Mafia or Werewolf XP*

Now, I think personally that the wagon, while scum-driven, was not made up entirely of scum. That would be fool-hardy of the highest degree. I'd expect the wagon makeup, perhaps, to be more like 3 townies/2 Mafia/1 werewolf. It's not certain, but that feels like a safer guess than assuming the entire wagon was scum. In that regard, let me ping down my feelings on the matter, just vaguely:

Town:
AA
Empking
Percy

Scum:
Zwetschenwasser
Ash
Acemarksman

Those guesses arise, more or less, out of how much involvement each person had in the wagon. The loosest guess there is Ash, *who is really only there because he's the least town of the suspected town members* but I'd be more confident about guessing that Ace and Zwet were scum, especially Ace. His vote on me, was derived from meta which no one else could see, and from my view, is clearly wrong. Nothing else. He never even mentions the topics which other people voted me for, which I find a bit odd, especially on a Page 3 with relatively rich discussion, at least against me. Likewise, I find Zwet's vote odd for 'Killing the discussion phase'. The counterclaim issue has already been brought up, and I agree with people's comments on the scumminess of asking for a counterclaim.

If I were to guess, I'd say that Ace and Zwet might even be partners, which amuses me to no end *Ace has always been vocal on his dislike for Zwet IRL*. This is blind speculation, however.

Thoughts?