Open 143: Jungle Republic (Game Over!) before 787

[AA23]

I acknowledged these three. Let that be noted - he seems to have some chronological mix up with his quotes to manufacture back and forths.

You didn't acknowledge them until I posted that, is what I meant.

learn how to type what you mean then...

I DID acknowledge the three points. And all of them were terrible

If you bothered to read - I stated the difference between prodding to get things moving, and prodding when you're all out of ideas on how to get out of a situation.

If you bothered to read -

I stated

why you're scummy for saying that.

You stated I'm scummy for difference of opinions? Magic lol

Niether you or Mix have cleared yourself of the suspicions. In fact, you're going so far as to mass post OPINIONATED nonesense against me. It's terribly weak.

Why do you insist on speaking for everyone? We haven't cleared ourselves of

your

suspicions, not

the

suspicions. Are you speaking on behalf of your scumbuddies?

If that's your logic at work there, I feel sorry for you.

I said "the" - it's competely appropriate.

Have you or have you not made it clear that you will lynch Zwet and Emp no matter what, and did you not say that there "happened to be a vote on them as well"

X FUCKING D. I didn't say that.

Also, I doubt you've played with me enough to know that

I don't care if Zwet and/or Emp are lynched for poor reasons. They could be lynched for nothing for all I care, I'll lynch them both on policy.

I just

happened

to have a reason this time.

Post 351...

I want you to soak in that for a minute....mmmm.... lol

At least I can provide actual quotes to back myself up against your defenses....

This is an offense - try not to forget that you're the one being pointed at - I don't have blood on my hands, and you have a utility lynch on your hands as well as turning a blind eye to the Mix case - - what ARE your opinions on that? eh? lol

No, I'm telling you what you clearly haven't read. You said I "know what a mislynch does to a town and

ALWAYS weigh the options and possibilities out first". You said "always", and since I proved you wrong, it shows that you were lying about basing it off my "entire meta".

So let me get this straight - - you're telling me you do NOT weigh options out before voting on a life to be taken? You lynch without thinking? because youre telling me I'm wrong for saying you DO - you do realize that, yes? lol


---------

Why aren't you more concerned with the liar?

The liar hasn't been posting and I'm pretty sure both of you are scum, so I don't care who I investigate, as long as it's one of you.

So in addition to him being a liar, he's a lurker - - and yet you voted Zwet simply for "believing" him? lol rich

Plus, it'll give you the time to look for those quotes

found'em... in fact - I'll post it again for fun.

And in case you're wondering - - yes, it IS fun laughing at your expense with my friends lol
Post 351

Also, I doubt you've played with me enough to know that

I don't care if Zwet and/or Emp are lynched for poor reasons. They could be lynched for

nothing

for all I care, I'll lynch them both on policy.

I just

happened

to have a reason this time.

Vote Count

Mixologist 2 - AA23, AshMC1984
AA23 2 - Empking, dejkha

[Mixologist]

@all-Sorry for the lack of contribution since D2 started. Real life issues have kept me very busy and I haven't had time to really properly re-read until now.

So this post will probably shock everyone. Yes, yes, I'm actually proving AA right as far as his debate with dejkha goes.

@dejkha:

FoS:Ace
For using hyperbole to strengthen a vote against Dust and opportunistically distancing yourself to take it off.

Don't know the exact post, but if you read him in isolation it's there. It was quite easy to find.

@AA- Yes, I jumped ship. I have no defense if you want to lay your whole case on my switching votes. If there is something else you find scummy about me to this point, please bring it up. My posts, votes, and thoughts in the future will be more laid out and not so random.

Anyways, I still think Ace should be eliminated today as he is clearly actively lurking and not even attempting to respond to any of the said accusations.

vote Ace

[AA23]

I'm not voting you because you could very well be emotional and foolish with pride - - the only concrete evidence I know is on Mix.

So finally - - WHAT are your thoughts on ALL of the points raised on Mix from me?

And do read in full.

[AA23]

@all-Sorry for the lack of contribution since D2 started. Real life issues have kept me very busy and I haven't had time to really properly re-read until now.

So this post will probably shock everyone. Yes, yes, I'm actually proving AA right as far as his debate with dejkha goes.

@dejkha:

FoS:Ace
For using hyperbole to strengthen a vote against Dust and opportunistically distancing yourself to take it off.

Don't know the exact post, but if you read him in isolation it's there. It was quite easy to find.

@AA- Yes, I jumped ship. I have no defense if you want to lay your whole case on my switching votes. If there is something else you find scummy about me to this point, please bring it up. My posts, votes, and thoughts in the future will be more laid out and not so random.

Anyways, I still think Ace should be eliminated today as he is clearly actively lurking and not even attempting to respond to any of the said accusations.

vote Ace

Mix, you have to understand my position.

Were you hungry to have the day end? Because the ONLY thing that changed on the Zwet wagon was the move to L-1 **** otherwise you would have been there sooner, no?

So explain that for me so I can better understand, because what you, me, and Dej DO have in common is a scum read on Ace

[Percy]

Even I said in my many posts that such a thing would strike one as helpful! What's that point of not countering a claim - you lynch scum as a result, it's a more than understandable position

He was NOT fishing, he was NOT pushing, he JUSTIFIED why he mentioned it - and you guys are the ones who drilled it and wouldn't shut up about it.

The case against zwet was for three things (at least, that's why I vote him): firstly there was asking for the CC, and then there was what I thought could be his setting up of a scumgambit by getting

us

to lynch Dust, and finally his acceptance of the Ace meta on Dust. dejkha said that he's almost always happy with a zwet lynch, and having played 3 other games with zwet, I'll have to agree.

So when I read AA talking about how terrible certain people were for lynching zwet, I wasn't too convinced. hewitt stated his reasons for jumping on, and for AA to characterise it as poorly justified is inaccurate. I think he meant to say "hewitt didn't participate before", which is more accurate and still valid.

AA's meta on dejkha is unconvincing. I get the feeling that AA might be mafia, attempting to appear the outraged townie.

Take this post, for example:

You can't keep someone like that alive and risk more townies dying in a mislynch/nightkill to come - - if someone claims seer and is alive the next day, they're either scum, or scum tool, and you can't trust their judgement till you know their allignment - - So there goes that point, genius lol - - common sense? You wanted him to burn for common sense?

If someone claims Seer, they have to come up with results. If Dust were scum, his claims could be checked, and the

real Seer

could investigate him and/or other people and counterclaim later once they have solid info.

AA is trying to appear the logical townie, pointing out everyone's flaws. However, time and time again I find his reads and analyses to be biased.

You're like oragami....you fold under pressure.

A vicious pun! This makes me take you less seriously. The more confident and self-assured you proport yourself, the less I believe you.

lol Yes! Call for a prod!! You need help Dej!!!!!! lol you're on the run, pal.

...I mean, are you serious? Calling for prods is not a scumtell. In fact, asking for more active participation is a nulltell - it's easy to do, so both scum and town can do it.

I also don't understand why AA never defended Zwet like this before the lynch was made.

Indeed. In fact, I thought all of your post 396 made sense.

The rest of this board isn't stupid, Dej - - If they don't know why I think you and Mix are scum, I'll clarify it for THEM - -

You don't get to make requests, scum, you get to sit there and continue to feel helpless lol

That can be interpreted in two ways. Either scum needing time to form a case or scum finding a way out of explaining a nonexistent case.

I couldn't agree more.

The fact that AA jumps back to post 351 after this articulate response from dej, bolding all over for emphasis, seems to suggest to me two things - firstly, that his case isn't developing how he'd like it, so he's going to start again from the beginning; secondly, that he thinks dej is scum for not having "good enough reason" for being on the wagon.

I will put my hand up and say that I remain happy with my vote on zwet. You heard me right. I thought zwet was more than likely scum, and voted him. Hindsight is great, but it really isn't a good idea to play the outraged townie crying over the dead body of zwet card.

I find it very, very difficult to get a read on zwet. Almost everything he does null, with a few bonus "mild scumread" things thrown in. He felt especially scummy in this game, so I voted him. In isolation, I probably would have preferred an Ace lynch yesterday to someone else who did the same things as zwet, but zwet is

famous

for making stupid scummy errors on Day 1 (see, for example, Yosarian2's Lynch All Lurkers mafia) when he plays as scum.

It's easy for AA to make an attack on the zwet wagon now, but his tone is too strong, his analyses too biased, and his attacks on dejkha too weak.

Mix's vote on zwet reads as possible opportunism, but I'll wait on Mix's reply to AA's latest question to make up my mind. At the moment, I'm thinking that had settled on two targets, and ending the day when one was at L-1 was acceptable.


So what am I left with? I think dej is town, AA mafia, Mix uncertain, and the other players in the game are still fairly below-the-radar (including myself, I'm sure).


Except for one.


Ace is still my #1 scum. He hasn't replied to the questions put to him, and is hoping we'll forget all about it. I haven't. Lynch all liars, diescumdie.

Vote: Ace

.

I think AA's attempts to distract from the Ace lynch is possible defensive behaviour. If Ace flips mafia, I'll be going after AA hammer and tongs.

[AA23]

Distracting?

Percy - while I hope you did some reading in your lurking time, did you notice that the very first post of D2 - very first - I point my finger at Mix, Dej, and Ace, and vote Mix?

I've kept my vote, maintained suspicions on Dej, and haven't left Ace out of the equation, especially most recently.

**And your thoughts on the Mix situation - - you think risking the lives of townies are okay when you want the day to end and someone's sitting at L-1 with a weaker case than the one you're on? (Ace)

I mean honestly - you all say I'm defending Zwet like mad - - You're all guilty on the flipside saying NOTHING BUT SCUM about Ace!!!! Your tune hasn't changed lol why didn't YOU GUYS do anything about those feelings earlier lol

You all had this certainty that Ace was scum, but exchanged it for a quicklynch to end the day? Percy they lurker, Mix the opportunistic, Hewitt the follower who didn't bring anything new to the wagon, and Dej the prejudice? - - YEAH - I've got an issue with the wagon lol

AWESOME lol

[Percy]

you think risking the lives of townies are okay when you want the day to end and someone's sitting at L-1 with a weaker case than the one you're on? (Ace)

Stop the histrionics, not even joking.

Every time you vote to lynch someone, you are risking that they are, in fact, town. If there is some other convoluted meaning here, please explain.

You think the zwet case was weak (today), but others (myself included) thought it was pretty good for a Day 1 case. I addressed this objection in my post.

I mean honestly - you all say I'm defending Zwet like mad - - You're all guilty on the flipside saying NOTHING BUT SCUM about Ace!!!! Your tune hasn't changed lol why didn't YOU GUYS do anything about those feelings earlier lol

The "you're doing it too!" defence, I see.

1. This implies that you are OK with being characterised as defending zwet posthumously, given that you didn't address the argument. Is this true?
2. Our tune hasn't changed because there has been no reason to change it. I had two suspects at the end of Day 1 - zwet and Ace. Now that zwet is dead, I want Ace dead. He has said nothing to change my mind.

You all had this certainty that Ace was scum, but exchanged it for a quicklynch to end the day?

1. What makes you think that the zwet lynch was "quick"? I believe the case began right after Dust's claim.
2. How could the game have benefited from a longer Day 1?
3. If you're heavily suspicious of two people and want them both dead, and one is closer to lynch, it stands to reason that you'd vote for one, and vote for the other the next day. Do you disagree?

[AA23]

On your third and final point - when you want them both dead, and you understand the risk of towny loss with any lynch (as you say) - would you not weigh both cases out appropriately?

Your histrionics comment is completely opinionated, you seem to have a problem with the "you're doing it too!" defense yet didn't mention it when Dej did it, and you haven't addressed Mix's switch over.

My vote stays, Percy - I don't need your opinion on how the wagons went - you did some of the most intense lurking I've ever seen - you were a ghost almost all D1.

and above the 405 quote , yout number 1 point is WIFOM and putting words in my mouth as well as jumping to conclusions - - if you guys like lynching and bitching about other people doing things, don't be hypocrites and do it yourself.

You're all so adorable - -

This game always has promise of being fun and intelligent, but I learn more and more it's a bunch of people looking for ways to lynch - - not scum.

That idea is proven with everyone not having a DAMN problem with Mix hammering someone because it would have ended the day - - nobody has an issue with utility lynching?

[Percy]

On your third and final point - when you want them both dead, and you understand the risk of towny loss with any lynch (as you say) - would you not weigh both cases out appropriately?

Yes?

I mean, I don't even know what you're asking here. I think you're saying that there was no reason at all to lynch zwet; if only we had more time, we would have seen that!

Well, OK, let's even concede that the zwet lynch was a bad idea, and that if we had kept Day 1 alive a little longer, we would have seen that. This begs the question - where were you

yesterday

informing us of this?

You said you didn't want a claim at all (again, after the fact):

We all have different positions on claiming, it's not like I didn't tell you all how I felt about the situation - none of us liked it - Emp, what exactly are you leading to?

I'm getting tired of hearing how obvious and inevitable the claim was - - it makes it all the more scummier that Emp told Dust to do it and then said nobody should counter.

If anything, I would have suggested telling Dust NOT to claim.

...this suggests to me that you were trying to take the heat off zwet whilst playing the 'outraged townie' card. It's a card that (as I've pointed out) I think you have overplayed.

Now this is your post when Ace is on two votes, and Zwet is on

five

:

Dust it occured to me that leaving you alive would be a tacic, however, you would have results from an investigation, no?

If you were alive tomorrow, and told us wo your investigation turned up scum/town - - I believe that after lynching you, it would not only prove the true identity of who you had a night read on, but we can link their allies and other villains based on the info

(to specify - - Day 2, Dust says "X" is town/scum - - Dust is lynched and flips either way thus informing us of the likely role of "X" - - we kill off "X" and see who interacted with him and how.

It's too risky for the villans to keep you alive, and I'm afraid to big a leap for us not to lynch you if you're alive tomorrow.

Circumstances are always unique though, so we will see how things unfold.

You don't just say that you prefer the Ace lynch - you

ignore

the zwet wagon all together. You actually don't comment on it

at all

. The only thing that even comes close is when you reply to Mix, who is asking for your suspects:

I'm having hard enough time determining the allingment of one and don't want to risk a mislynch so exuse me if I'm not interested in saying "These guys!!" **points**

...that is, you're giving yourself excuses not to contribute. After

excusing yourself

from the discussion, you now turn around and castigate us for it.

Sorry, AA, but it's fucking

bullshit

.

you did some of the most intense lurking I've ever seen - you were a ghost almost all D1.

Most intense lurking you've

ever, EVER

seen, or just

ever

seen?
(I'm about middling for this game, in case you haven't noticed)

This game always has promise of being fun and intelligent, but I learn more and more it's a bunch of people looking for ways to lynch - - not scum.

What exactly do you mean by this?
(If you're not having fun and you're just going to berate us all for being stupid for the rest of today, do us all a favour and replace out, because mafia is actually a fun and awesome game. It gets frustrating when people don't agree with you, but that doesn't mean

we're

stupid - it probably just means you are lacking a good argument and/or clarity. Either that or you're scum who has slipped up and is pretending to softragequit.)

[dejkha]

and above the 405 quote , yout number 1 point is WIFOM and putting words in my mouth as well as jumping to conclusions - - if you guys like lynching and bitching about other people doing things, don't be hypocrites and do it yourself.

At least I show proof of these things on your end. All you ever do is claim someone says or does something, and when asked to back it up, you never do, because you can't.

Either way, hypocrisy doesn't take away from what we say, if it's true.

[Khamisa]

He and mix have not cleared themselves, and I reckon the call for more activity was a scummy hope that maybe the people that were on the wagon with them, innocent or not, will come to their aid and call me off - -

Have you cleared yourself? I don't think anybody's cleared themselves. There is infringement against everybody.

And here are my opinions on your case on Mix (in post 392):

You make it sound like Mixologist knew zwetschenwasser was a town

ie

before he lynched him. I can understand if you think he is scum, but multiple times you make it sound like he knows zwet is a townie while still looking for scum.

Also, you have a tendency to reach into the minds of people who don't believe your case and attack them personally, when they have little to do with the Mixologist case. It's OK to persuade people to believe you, but you are using emotional appeal to force them to believe your case. It's not acceptable play IMO.

And I don't get how you want me to look past your emotions to see the case - your posts are so laced with them its extremely hard to do so. AA23, you are playing this

game

like your life depends on it, and its causing your case to be less evidencial and more emotional.

[AA23]

Khamisa - Just because there's beef with me doesn't mean there is any scum evidence on me - - everything people are saying is completely opinionated, you can't prove that I'm putting on a face of any sort - - so there's no clearing, there's innocent until proven guilty (hence my vote isn't on Dej, it's on Mix)

Percy - You're telling me what I should have done about Zwet Day1 - - I was doing the same thing Mix was doing - I was looking/working on a case I felt to be stronger in hopes that people woudl realize it as such, and move to the stronger wagon -- his L status wasn't one for much investment considering we didn't have a lot of posts from people on it - they were lurking for the most part, so I assumed that if I had a decent case for them to read when they got back to the boards, it would inspire new thoughts - - there's nothing wrong with that

Your entire thought on the matter is assuming that everyone on the wagon was constantly active and supporting -- that's not the case

Dej - I like how little you still have to say - - and don't give me beef on quotes - - I'm still laughing about shutting you up with 351 lol

Dej - do you still have no opinions on the Mix hopping over case?

Does nobody find it scummy that he went for the lynch and not scum? I mean, nobody is disputing that he went for it because = it was a lynch - - it's not like Ace was any less scum, at least three of you want Ace dead, and WANTED him dead FOR D2 ON D1 (the very line of thinking you all killed Zwet over).

He chased a lynch and it resulted in a dead towny.

[dejkha]

everything people are saying is completely opinionated, you can't prove that I'm putting on a face of any sort - - so there's no clearing, there's innocent until proven guilty (hence my vote isn't on Dej, it's on Mix)

Actually, I've proved you've been lying and trying to make people think others have said/done thing's that they haven't.

Dej - I like how little you still have to say - - and don't give me beef on quotes - - I'm still laughing about shutting you up with 351 lol

I'm not giving you beef on quotes, just saying how it's clear that I can provide them to point out your lies and you have failed to use them to back up your defense. I'm just pointing out the facts is all.

I posted 351, so you can't shut me up when I made the post. And it's been shown so far that the only one that thinks you've shut me up is yourself. I don't see anyone, as of yet, saying they agree with you toward me.

Dej - do you still have no opinions on the Mix hopping over case?

The same opinion I had last time you asked: I don't find it very scummy.

[AA23]

Actually, I've proved you've been lying and trying to make people think others have said/done thing's that they haven't.

No, you pointed out what you FEEL are lies - they are your opinions

I'm not giving you beef on quotes, just saying how it's clear that I can provide them to point out your lies and you have failed to use them to back up your defense. I'm just pointing out the facts is all.

Opinions aren't facts

I posted 351, so you can't shut me up when I made the post.

lol I can shut you up when you tell me to provide you with proof that you said it - - it's actually MORE SAD that you typed it and FORGOT lol so thank you, I agree

Dej - do you still have no opinions on the Mix hopping over case?

The same opinion I had last time you asked: I don't find it very scummy.

Then we have no more business together - I'll keep to my wagon and you keep to yours.

[dejkha]

No, you pointed out what you FEEL are lies - they are your opinions

Nope. They're proven facts.

Opinions aren't facts

Exactly. That's why I said facts. Check www.dictionary.com for clarification.

lol I can shut you up when you tell me to provide you with proof that you said it - - it's actually MORE SAD that you typed it and FORGOT lol so thank you, I agree

I tell him I made a certain post and he gives me this. What is it? I don't even know...

Then we have no more business together - I'll keep to my wagon and you keep to yours.

So that's it huh? This is why I hate to let myself get vulnerable in relationships! I get too close and this is what happens... >_>

[AA23]

Damnit Dej, it wasn't you, we grew apart and are different people now than when we started out....lol

[Mixologist]

So here was my thought process on switching my vote.

zwet's playstyle is null. Let me say that up front. However, if you read him over, can't mention specifics as some of the games are currently ongoing, there is a very distinct difference between scumzwet and townzwet. I truly believed that zwet was scum. Now, I never mentioned that before my switch. That, if I am lynched today, will be my downfall. In my honest opinion, the zwet wagon had more backing to it than the Ace wagon. Meaning, that there was more reasoning to it. All I have on Ace, because he refuses to take part, is the fact that he lied. It's as simple as that. I believed that a zwet lynch would: 1) flip scum 2) be more informative. I was right on one of those two. If we continued with an Ace lynch, and he flipped town, we would have absolutely zero content to proceed off of it.

@AA - What is your opinion on Empking now? You're entire wagon you were building on him yesterday was due to the fact that he communicated to his "scumbuddy" Dust. Dust flipped Seer.

[AA23]

Dust flipped Seer and it clears him of those suspicions - it would be unfair for me to insist it, and ignorant for me to try and reform the theory to fit someway else - the post is a null tell.

All of what you're saying on Zwet was established early enough for you to have been on the wagon earlier - yet you were still confident in Ace, just as you are confident now - - I feel as though you are flip flopping as to just HOW scummy he is to whichever way is most convenient to you (it's just how it's coming across) - - If what you say is indeed accurate - you switched over because of the numbers, yes? (if that's inaccurate, please correct me)

[Mixologist]

All of what you're saying on Zwet was established early enough for you to have been on the wagon earlier...

I don't like being on a wagon early, unless I am the one starting it. Saying that, I will hammer. I have no problem with it. It's the way I play. Unless I start the wagon, I like to keep a second possibility open. This allows me to gather more information on multiple possibilities. I haven't played enough on MS, so I can't prove this to you.

...yet you were still confident in Ace, just as you are confident now...

Yes, I was still confident in Ace, however as I said, I believe that lynching zwet would flip scum and prove more informative.

...I feel as though you are flip flopping as to just HOW scummy he is to whichever way is most convenient to you (it's just how it's coming across)...

As I just stated, it's not a matter of convenience.

...If what you say is indeed accurate - you switched over because of the numbers, yes? (if that's inaccurate, please correct me)

No, I didn't switch over because of the numbers. I switched because I believed zwet would flip scum and his lynch would provide the town with more information than an Ace lynch on D1.

[AA23]

The last statement is what doesn't make sense.

You don't like being on a wagon early unless you're starting it, but you say you can't prove it because you haven't palyed enough (which begs the question how would you know what you like that much) - - You say that you didn't switch to that wagon because of numbers.

If it's not the numbers, all the reasons you're stating suggest that you would still have gone over earlier - - even for the L-2/L-1 - - but you were still working on the Ace case - why? Why work on another case if you feel the Zwet lynch would be best for D1? Isn't that a bit backward? Why would you not mention much of Zwet throughout your scumhunt - it didn't seem like he was a big deal on your radar, Ace was something you seemed really bent on.

There was no new evidence or case development on either wagon - - Zwet made it to L-1 and you switched to him - - you hadn't participated in his wagon or switched any earlier - - If you're telling me that you didn't switch because he was at L-1, why don't you have any reasons that make sense to do it so LATE?

It's just that, Zwet seemed to mean NOTHING to you compared to Ace until he was at L-1 - it seems fishy

[AA23]

All the reasons you gave could have put you on the Zwet wagon without being early or starting it (as you say) - - it doesn't make sense to push for ANOTHER wagon - at the very LEAST you could have discussed more of the Zwet case - it just seems like it came out of nowhere

[Mixologist]

Last post before I'm out for the weekend. Wedding and all I have to attend.

You don't like being on a wagon early unless you're starting it, but you say you can't prove it because you haven't palyed enough (which begs the question how would you know what you like that much)...

I said that I haven't played enough on MS. I have played elsewhere. I said that I probably should have mentioned zwet more yesterday, and that if I am lynched today, that will be my downfall.

I didn't switch because of the numbers. Towards the end, there were a lot of people focusing on zwet and not even taking a stance on Ace. At this point I decided to switch my vote and hammer zwet because I thought it would flip scum and prove more informative.

I really have to run now. I will be back late Sunday evening/early Monday morning.

[AA23]

If you asked somebody about a position on Ace, it DID come to you - - right now it just sounds like you noticed people were taking to him more and thought he must be scum (it's just how it comes across) - -

I feel like your interest in Zwet started at L-1 and finished with his lynched, that's the only problem I have.

And "your downfall" - is that poor wording? Because if you were town, it would be "our" not your - -

I hope you enjoy the wedding! (The sentence where you say you have to go to it is much funnier if I pretend you're the one getting married lol)

[Khamisa]

He chased a lynch and it resulted in a dead towny.

You've said some form of this many times when accusing Mixologist. Not every lynch is going to be correct, and now that Mix has somewhat explained his reasoning, we know he didn't do it totally opportunistically.

And I'm not saying your scum, you are more like uber-agrressive town in my eyes.

[AA23]

His reasoning suggests opportunistic BECAUSE it came so sudden and out of nowhere - -

The ONLY thing that instigated any change of heart or interest was the L-1. He had nothing leading to interest in Zwet before the vote, he was primarily interested in Ace.