Mini Normal 1879 Bringer Mafia II [Game Over]

[Terata]

First and only read: frogg town. I think the way hes talking down to sheep constantly while pressuring is kinda hard to fake well as scum. Some1 can fill me in ok froggs scum play?

I havent played with sheep b4 obv, but he strikes me as a person that would defend himself awkardly as either alignment, so while i think towns could be pinged by his weird wordings, i dont rly think its scummy.

I would like to know why Wheme thinks the 3 agreeing with froggs push looked scummy to him. You think sheep has posted towny enough for it to be weird for townies to push on him too? I certainly dont and would love some expanding

[Terata]

I do think the WAY lil popped in was slightly awkward tho.
VOTE: Lil Uzi Vert here is a start. Gn

[Terata]

I do think the WAY lil popped in was slightly awkward tho.
VOTE: Lil Uzi Vert here is a start. Gn

What was awkward about the way I popped in?

The way you voted the only wagon that you could actually have an opinion about and labeled your vote as...nothing. Looks to me like you just slipped it in there as a "lalala, im just RVS-voting, don't mind me". I either expect a serious vote on for example Sheep with some comment attached, with your suspicion and what YOU didn't like about him, or an obvious RVS vote on some1 that isn't a mainwagon or very active. This is in between and it pings me.

[Terata]

Also, im not used to this maj-lynch d1, feels weird to be talking about someone looking scummy for voting close to it so soon into the day. Like, i can't see scum using that as a valid strat and trying to get away with it without being seen. It just seems dumb to me, so im not gonna go that route, i think THAT particular part of the lil's vote is NAI, i think it's the other shit i mentioned earlier that's actually scummy. But maybe im wrong on it being NAI, who knows. Maybe scum's just ballsy af

[Terata]

I think it MIGHT actually be scummy to mindlessly push someone for making a vote putting it dangeriously close. Since it's a simple thing to push for, it's so objectively wrong that scum feels super confident calling people out for it and pushing them, while towns are more likely to have the thought "it's bad, but would scum necessarily do it more than town?". So im keeping an eye on Wheme and Hawk for that, but mainly Hawk since he wasn't even the one who noticed it but just jumped on it when he saw it mentioned elsewhere.

[Terata]

btw scum, don't think you can just do ballsy votes now with me saying this, it's not as true after i've said it, lol

[Terata]

@Fro99, you don't need to defend my honor. But seriously thanks for defending my honor.

VOTE: sheep

Is the slip real? Who knows? Am I going to laugh if the sheep flips scum? You bet!

i actually liked this reaction much much more. Pretty towny imo

[Terata]

Towns:

Frogg

Lowell
gerry

Scum:

Sheep
Hawk

Lil Uzi Vert

i did reread Sheep, even if i still stand by he would over-defend himself awkwardly as either alignment, i think i still lean scum to the way he's not posted even 1 thing i could find towny

[Terata]

So have you caught up? any green leans?

[Terata]

lmao. too nice/soft to call someone scummy, but tells something to "go die"

jk

[Terata]

@Fro99, you don't need to defend my honor. But seriously thanks for defending my honor.

VOTE: sheep

Is the slip real? Who knows? Am I going to laugh if the sheep flips scum? You bet!

Okay so this vote bothers me. They first ask if the slip is real then shrugs and says; "who knows" and is voting anyway. That seems a VERY anti-green thought process.. like; 'people are calling this a slip I don't really know if it is or not but I'm going to vote anyway to end the day sooner rather than later' Given Garrys post about a one shot tipple vote thing, that really does add up to opportunism. either way its a shitty vote that deflects responsibility for their actions.

I would also like to state for the record that I believe garryoak doesn't have that power role.

wait, you seriously think people's intention was to maj sheep and end the day right there?

[Terata]

i think you're taking things far too literally. and im gonna have a problem with it since scum usually does that more often than town. But ive met people that simply works that way regardless of alignment and i don't really feel like looking through your past games. sigh

[Terata]

this was refering to both the "i don't think he got that powerrole", and you harping on earlier wordings. Not the joke lol (just thought i'd clarify)

[Terata]

Your first post stating that you won't/don't like giving reads lists d1, and that's the first thing you once you've caught up; a full readslist. Lol. I think that's majorly towny. I think Scum!Naomi would've been happy with the meta excuse that you like to avoid them early, but you doing anyway even if you don't have to meta-wise is towny

[Terata]

i actually liked Lowell's tone in the vote. I think saying "who knows" and still vote a slip for pressure is a completely valid process to go through as town, and the way he said it looked towny to me. While i hated lil's way of voting a real wagon without anything else to say. If you want to put pressure (like i think was lowell's idea) you want to say something attached to the vote to pressure/question the one you're voting. So i don't really accept that vote in the same manner. you don't need reasons attached to every vote in RVS, but that vote definetly needed one

[Terata]

Your first post stating that you won't/don't like giving reads lists d1, and that's the first thing you once you've caught up; a full readslist. Lol. I think that's majorly towny. I think Scum!Naomi would've been happy with the meta excuse that you like to avoid them early, but you doing anyway even if you don't have to meta-wise is towny

I thought I said I like to give read lists day 1 and switch to POE lists later on?

yea, it seems i misread. i take that back

[Terata]

I do think the WAY lil popped in was slightly awkward tho.
VOTE: Lil Uzi Vert here is a start. Gn

What was awkward about the way I popped in?

The way you voted the only wagon that you could actually have an opinion about and labeled your vote as...nothing. Looks to me like you just slipped it in there as a "lalala, im just RVS-voting, don't mind me". I either expect a serious vote on for example Sheep with some comment attached, with your suspicion and what YOU didn't like about him, or an obvious RVS vote on some1 that isn't a mainwagon or very active. This is in between and it pings me.

The problem is your assumptions. Instead of asking me why I'm scum reading Sheep, you assume that I was RVS voting. If you'd like to know why I voted for someone, just ask.

i never said i thought you were RVS voting because of who you voted. But it was closely phrased as one considering ur posts until then was basically "hi guys" or something, and there was nothing attached. That looks like an RVS, even though i know it couldn't have been, since you don't RVS vote a big wagon. That was my problem. You can tell me your reasoning if you had any, but that doesn't change that it looks bad to me

[Terata]

Btw Sheep, if I for example Whiteknighted you as scum, what would i gain in then instantly swapping you to a scum lean a bit later after i resisted the wagon? doesn't that kinda negate the pocketing the whiteknighting as scum could've possibly gained?

[Terata]

Frogg, why are you calling me obv town just in passing without any previous mention of me? At which point did you think i became town for you?

[Terata]

Okay so.. Let me ask you a simple question; Was your post in question a joke or other wise non-serious post that is NAI?

It was a serious question asked in a mocking way, if he hadn't answered it would have been very serious - I leave it to you to classify that in your own joke range.

Btw Sheep, if I for example Whiteknighted you as scum, what would i gain in then instantly swapping you to a scum lean a bit later after i resisted the wagon? doesn't that kinda negate the pocketing the whiteknighting as scum could've possibly gained?

You swapped me after the pressure on me was relieved,

which makes sense in a scum concept of hoping the lynch goes through and you look good for being 'right'

and shifting me to a lynch option for later also plays to that potential scum play.

No.

I don't play this "answer my questions game." If you think that makes me scum for it IDGAF. I don't sit here and do what people tell me to do. That's not how I play so get off your damn high horse with this "I'd like you to do this" bullcrap.

You've already shown me you'll give absurd logic with that avatar retort. I'm not going to go around in circles with you. It helps nobody.

Could you at least address the point where I called you a misrepper/liar for how you changed up what Lowell said and then attacked me over my reaction to something that wasn't said?

Because I'd love to talk about that.

Vote: Frogger

- I call you scum
- you say my upside as scum would be to have been 'right' with your flip

i didn't see the last "slip", but this i could maybe buy lol.

[Terata]

i mean, in case you meant i would get cred for being right in the very start when i called you scum wrongly right up to the lynch, that makes no sense either to me.

[Terata]

i think you should adapt Frogg's approach in this case, Sheep. Show us you can focus on something else than the one you're tunneling with shit thats boring to read. That will help both you and us more than reading whatever you're doing now, which is being salty at Frogg's annoying (to you) playstyle. Something scum and town could do, so we dont get any info.

[Terata]

I don't understand your reply there, here's the timeline - you arrive in the game and say this;

I havent played with sheep b4 obv, but he strikes me as a person that would defend himself awkardly as either alignment, so while i think towns could be pinged by his weird wordings, i dont rly think its scummy.

You then attack Uzi (one of my attackers) at this stage, you are effectively WKing me.

Later on, the wagon on me dissolves - at that point you shift your read to a "might be scum" sort of read.

I say that the theory scum plan was to WK (which you did) and then, later, when you realize the wagon won't bull rush through it's viable to have me as a lynch option by seeing how maybe I'm scum (which you also did). That is a coherent comment which is as much of a slip as my last comment called a slip. If something looks weird it's because we're not talking cleanly to each other - not because it's a slip.

i get all this. What i don't get is how i would get cred as scum after me pushing you and you flipping town, just because i was 'right' for a small amount of time in the very start of the day. Get me?

[Terata]

and my "slip" comment was basically half joking. I kinda got what you meant, it just doesnt make any sense.

(and frogg, just ignore him, you know its best for town, even though im not sure he does)

[Terata]

i think you should adapt Frogg's approach in this case, Sheep. Show us you can focus on something else than the one you're tunneling with shit thats boring to read. That will help both you and us more than reading whatever you're doing now, which is being salty at Frogg's annoying (to you) playstyle. Something scum and town could do, so we dont get any info.

I'm sorry I'm boring - I'm not trying to be, and it's how I communicate.
It's page 7 and I've focused on quite a few people - who do you think I need to focus on that I haven't?
I agree that scum could do what Frogger is doing.. I also agree that town could, and it would be bad. Beyond the idea that town might not care to understand someone they're calling scum for bad logic - why is that, in your opinion, *my* issue and not *his and my* issue?

make a quick reads list on the people you have reads on with a sentence or 2 explaining each read, would help. I don't remember much of your reads except for Frogg and the WK stuff

[Terata]

ok, i get what you meant now. Even if i don't think the pressure on the is all that relieved even now? but i get it.

and to the list answer. i dont see the "generally like" and "ok with" and "i find Hawk scummier" as explanations. Thats stale reads that i don't see the thought process for and cant evaluate

[Terata]

If you need an expansion on any of those reads, let me know.

lol. ye. thats kind of the point of reading your list. idc what reads you have tbh, i read people based of WHY they have them solely.

[Terata]

Frog being dismissive and non-caring and then having this quick turn. I can't tell if it feels forced or not since i dont know the guy

[Terata]

@ECmich

Do you not think i believe that initial read on Sheep about playstyle? If i do believe it, why wouldn't i out that info i believe in to help you guys in reading him?

With regards to my swap on Sheep, fine if you believe swapping reads is a viable tell, even if i think it's the complete opposite that's true. Scum tries super hard to make their progressions slow and well recieved. But thats ur read so eh

[Terata]

@EC
Just because i haven't played with them before, doesn't mean i can't feel out their playstyles and get my mind around things i believe in. If mafia was a complete meta game, it would be pretty boring. I hope you don't play like that

[Terata]

ofc im not AS comfident as i would be in the read if i had played 5+ games with the people im reading. But feeling playstyles/posting style out and feeling what is NAI and not is what i do. That's all that matters: filtering the NAI stuff

[Terata]

Probably scum for not even attempting to understand my play. Just shouting MISREP and YOU DIDNT READ

So you agree it's scummy not to try to understand someone?

These are exactly the type of manipulative questions scum asks.

"Oh you can accuse that of me but don't you agree you are doing the same?" As in ... look how much of a hypocrite this guys is.

Fun fact, town can be hypocrites. Even then, I'm not being hypocritical. I am understanding your play, despite you suggesting I am not.

This guy is literally resorting to:
"Frog doesn't read"
"Frog is hypocritical"
"Frog misreps"
"Frog lies"

as his argument against me.

agreed it's terrible. But sadly i've seen players who just focused on that stuff even though it's as often done from town

[Terata]

AJ town from that post alone

[Terata]

@AJ

IM ON IT SIR. But it's like choosing a name. it's so hard.

[Terata]

don't put too much weight into reads connected to flips we don't know. i have a feeling people on this site generally overdo that kinda thing.

[Terata]

Okay I'm at work right now but I get off in an hour. Today you guys have added 5 pages of content that has put me here.

Frog is town
Sheep is flailing and using buzzwords to death maybe because they're new? (white Knight, misrep, etc.)
Terata looks town from his interaction with Sheep and I was equally as confused reading through Sheep's posts involving why he would get town cred for WKing and some outstanding circular logic by sheep.
AJ is town trying to interject some line of thought into a chaos of fluff since for 5 pages it feels like Sheep and frog have had the same exact fucking arguement. Also all this happened today. jeesus guys.

I like ECM for his entrance but it really doesn't ping me one way or the other.

Naomi is fine not pinging me one way or the other I can understand her logic on her reads and while I appreciate the effort it's NAI.

Here in a minute I'll go through and quote and answer some questions I know we're asked of me so give me a second I'm doing this from mobile.

After that I'd like to point out all the problems I have with sheep and frogs argument that's spanned all day today and added 5 pages of fluff.

you like him but you don't lean either way? which one is it

[Terata]

liked = towny in my book. You had fun reading it, so that's what you're gonna mean when you say you like something. noted..

[Terata]

liked = towny in my book. You had fun reading it, so that's what you're gonna mean when you say you like something. noted..

Okay okay yes liked is usually a town associative word for me thats why I clarified with doesn't ping me one way or the other. I guess my use of like here means even if it's just subconscious I lean him more town than scum but still very null. Like I said I'm at work just now getting off forgive me I'm trying to do this from mobile lol

towny response

[Terata]

Sheep is so obvious opportunistic scum it hurts.

It would help lots if you expanded on why. You're answering stuff that doesn't matter as much about ur own gameplay instead of flushing out your reads. Noone is gonna listen to your reads if they don't know the reasoning

[Terata]

Personally i feel bad about pretty much all my scum reads for now but good about a couple of townreads which is Frogg, Naomi and AJ.

All others are very hard placed for now but that's ok, i loads of time to get a better PoE. i work with townreads better than scumreads too.

[Terata]

My Naomi read comes almost only from her strong and lengthy response to Sheep which annoyed her, the emotion seemed real. It was super towny.
Frogg read is more from overall play and engagement, without a disconnect in emotion when he's been annoyed. Hasn't felt fake.
AJ read is from how he spoke of different things in his opening post, and then he got to his important reads and he said them super compact and confidently in like 2 lines and began it with "while we're at it", it it flowed well.

[Terata]

yeah im in the same boat with confident town reads, but very little non-towns. Whats your thoughts on sheep right now terata?

idk tbh, a lot of people i townread are either townreading him or starting to retract the scumread. So i take that into account, even though i don't really agree with your thought that him being in daychat would change his play very much. Players doesn't usually use daychat THAT much even though it's very good to do so. Though maybe it's different on this site and people post everything through there, but i don't see Sheep doing that. Players who are awkward like him with bad logic, is gonna look bad as either alignment in thay way imo.

[Terata]

is there a way to post a Votecount? or does only the mod have that power?

[Terata]

fro99er:

You are curious to see my own take on my own push?

I think sheep is scum. I see zero reason for sheep to come in and make a jump in logic like that just to say something like "is it going to be difficult to work with you" when I got absolutely zero of that from lowell's post.

It was purely a jump in logic to throw shade.

Just wanted a response from you so I could engage with WhemeStar more. I assumed your push was genuine, and it seems like I was right. Scroll down this post to see a continuation of this thought!

As for the slip, I can see what gerry is talking about. I try to find those kinds of slips EVERY game, and Chaos I know you do at least at times as you did in MAFICEPTION with Pepto (which i then seized on and tied Titus to that slip so we for sure had two scum nailed down from it). I find slip resistance (as Titus did) more scummy than pointing out a slip, in general, although it's not a hard and fast tell.

Here's Chaos pointing out a slip: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p7396328

"Like he knows Mario is town"

That's what a I get from reading Sheeps post is that it looks "like he knows Gerry is town"

Yes, I look for slips, and yes, I get the jist of why people think this about Sheep. It just doesn't read that way to me. The Pepto one you're referring to from Mafiaception was blatant. He voted a big wagon stressing a bunch of caution, got called on his weakness, and responded he doesn't want a mislynch. Definition of a slip. The Sheep slip is just parsing something a certain way. I read it as "Oh, you're confirmed town? Well, your highness, you should place a vote so the rest of the town can follow you." It's not similar to the Pepto one at all to me, at least.

------

WhemeStar:

I think the push on sheep is weak, and frog made it seem like it was strong to get reactions out of everyone

So this has been proven wrong. frogger believes the strength of his push on Sheep. Since you think the push is weak, does this change your read of frogger at all?

------

Hawk:

Hawk: Do you currently have a scumread of Sheep?

At the time I was leaning him yespecially. Now yeah pretty much since all his posts till now have been the definition of insanity.

Is LUV still a bigger scumread for you at this point?

After that I'd like to point out all the problems I have with sheep and frogs argument that's spanned all day today and added 5 pages of fluff.

In your short readlist before this, you said frog was town and Sheep was scummy. Does frog not gain suspicion for being a main contributor to what you called "5 pages of fluff"?

this post reads very scripted/forced to me, and the only time he goes into a little bit of a deeper analysis is when he's comparing something to a past game, which is something that's easy to talk about when you're scum because it's something you believe in and can give your true thoughts on. Also looking for contradictions/unexplained progressions more than i'd like. I think that's sometimes a mafia trait too, because it's a simple thing to look for/push on.

Scummiest post of the game thus far to me

[Terata]

VOTE: ChaosOmega

[Terata]

you're also lacking thus far.

[Terata]

VOTE: ChaosOmega

Something about this vote feels off.

Can you put your finger on what?

I agreed with the vote, FWIW

I think him calling it scripted is what's bugging me. It doesn't read that way to me.

But i explained exactly why i thought so. You don't think i believe what im saying or is it just the specific word scripted you don't think fits. I see scripted as a synonym to made up, which is what mafia's posts are when they're trying to "solve"

[Terata]

Sheep is so obvious opportunistic scum it hurts.

It would help lots if you expanded on why. You're answering stuff that doesn't matter as much about ur own gameplay instead of flushing out your reads. Noone is gonna listen to your reads if they don't know the reasoning

It's fairly simple really. He's using every little opportunity he can to jump on a wagon now or in the future and seed plant by discrediting.

It starts off quite early with his 18 where he takes Lowell's RVS vote as him being hard to work with as town because the wagon on WS was slightly larger.

Doesn't even consider that me and Lowell may have played with each other outside of this game and his vote was a means of saying hi. Just assumes that Lowell will be hard to cooperate with. I also don't like this assumption because it implies not only he should be trusted but the people on the wagon should've been as well.

His 33 where he essentially calls Frog's argument about the intent of his questions towards Lowell trivial with his avatar retort.

In his 113, he discredits Naomi's null read on him by calling it white knighting. If you all go back and read the post of Naomi's he linked, she isn't defending him, she's questioning Gerry based on what she thinks Sheep meant and how Sheep reacted to the accusation. Naomi is not coming to his aid here, she's inquiring whether or not Gerry and Hawk are joking about the basis of their push on Sheep.

He says he wants to talk with Frog I'm assuming to clarify whatever issues he's still having him but rather than giving him the chance to hear him, he immediately casts a vote for Frog in 158. Strongly points to me like he already thinks Frog is scum and is just going to continue to provoke him in order to unnecessarily justify his vote.

223 he just jumps on the Hawk wagon after it's clear he's not really null or town reading Frog or even AJ.

thanks!

i think the reasoning is pretty towny toom especially the bolded part connected to your own feelings that you felt at the time he mentioned it.

[Terata]

Also looking for contradictions/unexplained progressions more than i'd like. I think that's sometimes a mafia trait too

how do you tell the difference between a Red or Green motive when dealing with that?

It's all depending on circumstances. It's the amount of the posting like that compared to the amount of them solving in other ways. It's what has happend apart from that in the game that influences when it's reasonable to talk more about meta. It's how much the meta seems to matter in the read itself and how helpful the meta seems to be. It's what kind of playstyle the one doing it has (which ofc i can't take into account as much). It's also a lot of gutread from my part. ANd loads of stuff i can't even think of right now.

[Terata]

Also looking for contradictions/unexplained progressions more than i'd like. I think that's sometimes a mafia trait too

how do you tell the difference between a Red or Green motive when dealing with that?

It's all depending on circumstances. It's the amount of the posting like that compared to the amount of them solving in other ways. It's what has happend apart from that in the game that influences when it's reasonable to talk more about meta. It's how much the meta seems to matter in the read itself and how helpful the meta seems to be. It's what kind of playstyle the one doing it has (which ofc i can't take into account as much). It's also a lot of gutread from my part. ANd loads of stuff i can't even think of right now.

i don't even know why you're asking such general questions when a more specific one would help you much more.

[Terata]

Wheme, you said early you liked Frog for overblowing the "weak" (as you called it) push on Sheep and searching for reactions. Did your read on Frogg change anything when you got to know Frogg's push was geniune and not simply a push for reactions. As you said he's still a townread i would assume no? so did he do something else you liked or did it still deserve a townread from you for pushing something you called "weak"?

[Terata]

Also, i have no idea if Wheme's biggest contribution to the game being to tell people to help the flavour means he's scum or too careless to be scum

[Terata]

Fire gimme a medal for solving the game already, thanks.

i THINK this is towny, but it might be NAI if he's good with tone, so small points here. Rest of the ISO is baaaaaad (i know you got it) tho

[Terata]

Also looking for contradictions/unexplained progressions more than i'd like. I think that's sometimes a mafia trait too

how do you tell the difference between a Red or Green motive when dealing with that?

It's all depending on circumstances. It's the amount of the posting like that compared to the amount of them solving in other ways. It's what has happend apart from that in the game that influences when it's reasonable to talk more about meta. It's how much the meta seems to matter in the read itself and how helpful the meta seems to be. It's what kind of playstyle the one doing it has (which ofc i can't take into account as much). It's also a lot of gutread from my part. ANd loads of stuff i can't even think of right now.

i don't even know why you're asking such general questions when a more specific one would help you much more.

It was me picking at your theory in case it didn't hold up.

and this is me picking at your question: did it? and why/why not? what expect would you have expected from a scum without a theory?

[Terata]

sheeping isn't cooperation tho. the "COOP"-part implies there's TWO parties COOPERATING back and forth. 1 sheeping another isn't cooperation if you're not adding anything (i guess you're technically adding to the situation that you agree with what was said initally, but that isn't an effective way of cooperating anyway).

Tip to sheep: When you've written up a post, take out all the quotes you can, and shorten it down to like 1 paragraph of Summary for others to read. Will help a lot

[Terata]

Trollbringer

[Terata]

Wheme, you really think who was on Sheep at the time is the by far most Alignment telling thing that's happend so far? you have no read on other things like actual game-solving done?

WHat did you think about lil's case on sheep a page ago or so. What do you think about me. and what did you think about my #311 about you?

[Terata]

It's not your level of participation. I'd be a hypocrite for calling out a lurker just for lurking. The problem with you is that you show up and offer nothing

but an attack on another lurker/quasi-lurker.

It looks like you're avoiding conflict intentionally.

Calling absolute bull on this one. Show me the receipts.

The only person I've "attacked" for filler so far has been Gerroat. I quoted all of WhemeStar's initial posts to prove against their statement that they already explained their vote against Hawk in the first couple of pages—which they really didn't.

Also, the bold text in your quote suggests you see me as a lurker. Care to elaborate on that? Since I've been added as a replacement I've been on top of this game fully.

Now about avoiding conflict, I have two responses to that:

• I'm not. I don't exactly see how calling out two players (Fro99er, Naomi) for their play styles and persisting that a player justifies their vote (WhemeStar) constitutes "avoiding conflict."
  
  
• If I was, what exactly would your point be? Avoiding conflict isn't necessarily a bad thing, particularly this early in the game. Right now we're still about deliberation and facilitating discussion. I don't have to be going at people like Fro99er is Cooperative Sheep to advance the game in this stage.

Okay,

now

I'm really leaving for the day. Just had to respond to that one.

this is not a towny response to pressure. Strong emotion without really wolf reading him, just wanting to prove him wrong and get him on another path. This last sentence especially shows he was just

responding

, and not doing anything active in terms of solving the player he lashed out on. Simple defense isn't really something towns get super engaged in unless they're really forced to IME, and even in that they constantly consider the pushing person's alignment more than i see this post doing.

[Terata]

Here's my big case-y-wall-case thing. I hate walls for the most part, so this makes me a "giant fucking hypocrite" (remember that phrase)

There's several problems I have with Chaos' play so far. Some are more meta-based, but some are more evidence based in this game.

Chaos opens up in 54 voting Wheme, and asking him what he thinks about my pressure on sheep. It strikes me as odd. Why specifically ask Wheme, and why specifically about my pressure on sheep? I get that my pressure on sheep was the big thing happening at the time, but chaos doesn't give his own thoughts on it because, as he replies to me in 59 "I don't think they'd be super helpful." Yet he expects Wheme's thoughts to be super helpful or something?

Also, Chaos mentions he's not about the sheep wagon, but does not state why. It's an attempt to disrail the wagon without having to put in the work of doing so.

In 59, chaos continues

So, frog is town for the push on Sheep. This would lead me to think that you think his reasoning is good/genuine/some other good words. If this is the case, why be suspicious of other people agreeing and why townread Sheep? If this is not the case, why townread frogger?

He pressures Wheme about why wheme is suspicious of people sheeping me on sheep, the townread on sheep, and the townread on me, as if it's some sort of contradiction. But Wheme actually replies in 63

I think the push on sheep is weak, and frog made it seem like it was strong to get reactions out of everyone

That's a fair response, and jives with how he could see both sheep and myself as town, yet suspect others on the sheep wagon.

But here's where chaos gets manipulative. In post 109 Chaos asks me for my take on my own push on Sheep. Chaos has played with me twice before, once in my perfect scum win in BEES, and once in our perfect town win in MAFIACEPTION. So he knows I don't fuck around with my pushes. So I give my take that I'm serious about my push (which Chaos knew from meta, and if he's scum he also knows I'm town making a genuine push).

(I'll have more to say about 109 in a minute, but I want to continue on this line of thought around Wheme)

In 282 Chaos says

I assumed your push was genuine, and it seems like I was right.

He confirms he knew that my push was genuine, so this is clearly an attempt to turn this around on either Wheme or myself, which he does later in the same post

So this (wheme's post 63) has been proven wrong. frogger believes the strength of his push on Sheep. Since you think the push is weak, does this change your read of frogger at all?

This is manipulative because if Wheme answers "yes, my read has changed so now I read frog as scum" or if wheme answers "No" then Chaos can come back with "then your original reason for townreading frogger for a weak push on sheep was a lie, because you townread him anyway". Manipulative as hell. It pushes the suspicion elsewhere, while chaos doesn't actually do any work around the sheep wagon himself.

Here's where I come back to chaos' post 109. He answer's Naomi's question to him with a combo of 1 and 3, meaning a combo of "I don't think sheep slipped" and "I don't have strong feelings on sheep." My issue is he's expecting everyone else to have feelings around myself and sheep, yet he can't provide any himself. He just want to create Chaos (pun intended) around the sheep/frog thing, while sidelining what he thinks of me and sheep himself.

There's also the "slip" stuff which Gerry pointed out and I agreed with, and Chaos actively defended against. That was a second,more indirect attempt at derailing the sheep wagon. We disagree about the slip, and this argument won't get us anywhere, but I don't believe this gels with my meta of Chaos using the slip in MAFIACEPTION, even if he says its different. I was town there, and I'm town here, and I still like to push possible slips when I see its possible there was one. For chaos to dismiss it so quickly, given what he did in MAFIACEPTION and how easy it was for other scum to dismiss it so quickly, is just another little point.

The clincher is his post 341 where he accuses Terata of doing the same thing he did around questioning Wheme. Yes, terata did question Wheme, about the exact same thing, and Terata even called Chaos out in 283 for saying Chaos' post where he then pushes back on Wheme now that I've said my push on sheep was real. But the difference is in their tone. It's going to sound really fucking dumb, but the tone of how chaos did it vs. the tone in which Terata did it is miles apart. Here's the difference:

Chaos:

So this has been proven wrong. frogger believes the strength of his push on Sheep. Since you think the push is weak, does this change your read of frogger at all?

Terata:

Wheme, you said early you liked Frog for overblowing the "weak" (as you called it) push on Sheep and searching for reactions. Did your read on Frogg change anything when you got to know Frogg's push was geniune and not simply a push for reactions. As you said he's still a townread i would assume no? so did he do something else you liked or did it still deserve a townread from you for pushing something you called "weak"?

Terata asks hers in a way that uses lighter, less accusatory tone for example "when you got to know Frogg's push was genuine" (use of the word genuine), "As you said he's still a townread i would assume no?" (benefit of the doubt), "so did he do something else you liked or did it still deserve a townread from you" (gives Wheme the option of still townreading me for something else, deserve a townread is a much more engaging tone).

Chaos was "So this has been proven wrong" (Wheme was wrong), "does this change your read of frogger at all?" (comapared to terata's does frog still deserve a townread and maybe are there other reasons)

IDK...it's just tone. I don't really remember Chaos taking this tone in BEES or MAFIACEPTION as town, but that's speculation on my part until I re-read.

Finally, he then accuses terata of being either scum or bad town at the end of his post 341 because she did the same thing he did. But I really find it scummy when someone is like "oh you accused me of this and then you did it yourself so you are a hypocrite." NEWSFLASH: town can be hypocrites. Happens all the damn time. And it's a really easy point for scum to latch on to, because they don't have to do any work. Just yell HYPOCRITE at the top of their lungs. As Chaos basically did with

this would make you seem like a giant fucking hypocrite

i read this before responding to his outlash and im glad for that, so i don't have to reiterate so much. Good post.

What i again don't like with his way of responding is that he lashes out hard with logic to condemn me and still ends up with the conclusion of "bad town or scum", which is basically still saying absolutely 0 about my alignment. Scum tends to do that, lashing out in an attempt to defend themselves without really trying to determine the alignment of the one who accuses them. I feel really good about Chaos being scum right now, and i don't usually feel good about my scum reads d1. FeelsGoodMan

[Terata]

Also i love how i accused him of trying to catch people in contradictions and how it was wolfy, and he presents another example of exactly that. Thanks for outing

[Terata]

Towns:

Frogg
AJ

Naomi
Lil Uzi Vert

PenguinPower

Null:

Lowell
gerry
WhemeStar
Sheep

Scum

Hawk
ECMitchell

ChaosOmega

[Terata]

MariaR is now backup mod.
This likely won't have any impact on game though because I am an amazing mod.

perfect*

[Terata]

Towns:

Frogg
AJ

Naomi
Lil Uzi Vert

PenguinPower

Null:

Lowell
gerry
WhemeStar
Sheep

Scum

Hawk
ECMitchell

ChaosOmega

actually my towns looks a bit different

Frogg

Lil
Naomi

AJ

[Terata]

games here are so slow, i feel weird about having close to no content

[Terata]

"where is is obviously digging what he believes is a red who has accidently said one thing and then something else that contridcts it. saying that."

what are you saying here? i don't think it's obvious Chaos thinks im scum? he's calling me either bad town or scum, which isn't an opinion at all

[Terata]

"Dash of WIFOM for you, if I'm scum here with you being town, I do not bother to keep engaging people about their town read of you. Because in a certain light, it might seem like I'm throwing shit on you. I'm trying to see who is scared of you vs. who is trying to read you. I would not mention you much if at all, and I would kill you N1.

You're one of the very few people in this playerlist whom I respect the play of, I'm trying to level with you here. You think my tone this game is different, look at how I cased Poro in Mafiaception. If I'm confident in a push, I do not give benefit of the doubt, and I don't word things just the way you prefer. And I'm not fucking manipulating players, I'm asking them questions."

hmm, this part is making me doubt a bit. i kinda like it. Rest is null/meh

[Terata]

Do you think that you're bad town, Terata?

no but what i think doesn't matter in your read?

[Terata]

Yes, I think you're scum, for the record.

you not outright saying that/implying it more in the initial post makes you look worse to me. If you had said something like "scum or bad town and i don't think you're a bad town" or something i would've maybe had a different look on you.

And either way, do you truly believe being a "hypocrite" aka. asking the same question as someone you're scumreading to someone is huegly scum indicative?

[Terata]

it's not like i scumread you for asking that specific question alone was my scumread of you. I thought your MAIN focus, the majority of your focus was looking for hypocrites/contradictions, which is something i've seen scum do alllll the time. You still stand by that post of yours strongly and that it makes me scum?

[Terata]

We can engage for a bit, Terata. Why is my 282 addressing Wheme not pro-town, and why is your 311 addressing Wheme pro-town?

i don't look for anti-pro-towns and pro-towns. i look for town and mafia. I think mafia has a different kind of hmm.. way? of trying to show pro-towniness. And 1 way i've seen more than others is the way of talking a lot about old meta/mechanics/contraditions, because it's something they can observe as OBJECTIVELY scummy, and genuinely push on, which they can't do with general reads and subjective reads, when they have TMI. see what im getting at?

[Terata]

We can engage for a bit, Terata. Why is my 282 addressing Wheme not pro-town, and why is your 311 addressing Wheme pro-town?

i don't look for anti-pro-towns and pro-towns. i look for town and mafia. I think mafia has a different kind of hmm.. way? of trying to show pro-towniness. And 1 way i've seen more than others is the way of talking a lot about old meta/mechanics/contraditions, because it's something they can observe as OBJECTIVELY scummy, and genuinely push on, which they can't do with general reads and subjective reads, when they have TMI. see what im getting at?

Not really. My point is that your question seems completely taken part-and-parcel from my question. So why is it scummy if I ask it but not scummy if you ask the same question?

i don't think the question is scummy by itself. Does that answer the question?

[Terata]

We can engage for a bit, Terata. Why is my 282 addressing Wheme not pro-town, and why is your 311 addressing Wheme pro-town?

i don't look for anti-pro-towns and pro-towns. i look for town and mafia. I think mafia has a different kind of hmm.. way? of trying to show pro-towniness. And 1 way i've seen more than others is the way of talking a lot about old meta/mechanics/contraditions, because it's something they can observe as OBJECTIVELY scummy, and genuinely push on, which they can't do with general reads and subjective reads, when they have TMI. see what im getting at?

Not really. My point is that your question seems completely taken part-and-parcel from my question. So why is it scummy if I ask it but not scummy if you ask the same question?

i don't think the question is scummy by itself. Does that answer the question?

Yes, but then there's another question. Here's your summary of my 282 where I asked that question:

this post reads very scripted/forced to me, and the only time he goes into a little bit of a deeper analysis is when he's comparing something to a past game, which is something that's easy to talk about when you're scum because it's something you believe in and can give your true thoughts on. Also looking for contradictions/unexplained progressions more than i'd like. I think that's sometimes a mafia trait too, because it's a simple thing to look for/push on.

Scummiest post of the game thus far to me

So I was focusing on your criticism that the questions focused on contradictions and unexplained progressions, but that is not by itself enough to make it scummy. That's fair. So I guess the tone here is the clincher. Can you explain how my tone in 282 seems to be scripted or forced, and how when you asked seemingly the same question in 311, your tone was more natural?

im not gonna describe my own play since that's pretty pointless but for the problems i had with your post, it was mainly the lack of anything i feel i coming from your gut more than something you could "think up" as solving. It's usually mixed in with the reads of players and i felt like you lacked that. I took some examples of things you did that i think lacked that, and that questions was 1 thing, you asking for someone's read without any additional thoughts was one. And then your slightly longer explanation around the older game. I guess i don't have any STRONG problems with your tone in the question more than the lack of things i like surrounding it. Tho when fr099 mentioned it i do agree it looked a bit shady how you asked IF it changed Wheme's read on Fr099 when you knew yourself it didn't change. I would've liked you to mention the "trap" before waiting for his answer. Also you lacked content aside from that post i liked, so that strengthened my feeling you lacked any reads you truly believed in.

[Terata]

also feels like everyone ignored my case dismissing it as OMGUS when it pointed out obvious missreping and multiple times they contradicted themselves within their own post.

contradiction isn't inherently wolfy. meh

[Terata]

I feel like this game is froggy vs sleepy, and I'm not sure on what to say about it.

you're caught up?

[Terata]

I feel like this game is froggy vs sleepy, and I'm not sure on what to say about it.

No opinion on:

Lowell and my interactions
CO and Frogger's interactions
Sheep's response to it
Gerrygoat in general
Lowell on ECM and Naomi

There's a circus going on and you're just focusing on the last act.

Ill try to do this piece by piece, too try and show that

I'm trying my best to help out town

.

Sorry

if you prefer me to give my opinions in one big post though.

Gerrygoat in general has been useless IMO. He hasn't contributed anything to the game (

less than me

) and I find it suspicious.

Only thing he contributed too was saying sheep slipped, and claimed that he was the one who pointed out the slip, but Frogger did IMO. But I don't think mafia would do what gerry is doing, so Im going to say he's null-town

Sheep and Frogger have been going at it all game. At first I thought it was froggy just trying to get reactions out of others, but then it kept going on and on.

After reading both of their posts over and over

I think

sheep is trying to just blame froggy of not reading his posts/answering his questions/misrepping him. Which

I think

is a scummy move, just asking questions over and over again. I thought sheep's slip wasn't really a slip, but his posts lately have me thinking he is possible scum.

Lowell-

I don't like some of his posts, such as iso #2. Where he voted sheep and said "is the slip real? who knows". Seems to me like he didn't have much reason to vote sheep and he didn't really care. I do like his recap on post #355 though. Also said that EC/Naomi flipped when he had a FOS on them, yet I don't see anything that shows them flippinng out. Possible scum.

I find it

really strange how Lowell said AJ's posts are spot on and right. Yet in a previous post, AJ said that he thinks Lowell is scum.

Is that a slip? I also think that Lowell is wrong on Naomi

, she seems genuine town for me, and I will be against a lynch on her for a while.

EC, please get avatar, pls. EC voted me for not explaining my vote on Hawk?

Which I thought I did,

and I had nothing else to say about it. Used my previous posts as an example of me saying nothing. And said me getting a vote on me is the reason I became substantial. Which was wrong.

If you guys want more

or if I missed some things, ask and Ill try to explain best I can.
For now,

id like to

vote lowell.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lowell

"What are all these bolded lines" you ask. Well it's all the things that pinged me in this post.
He seems super apologetic in his wordings which i haven't really seen from his previous play, an example being "im trying my best to help town" (talking about town as a seperate entity). I also had a problem with how he tries to take credit for coming up with certain reads that he clearly sheeped from others in the thread. If he said he sheeped them it would be completely fine, but he talks like he thought them up himself. Specifically the one about Lowell slipping about AJ's reads but also a little about the Sheep read, which was summarized with what problems other's have had with Sheep all game (and this is after he read the posts "over and over").

He made sure to point out someone who had done less pro-town things than he has (gerry) which mafia loves to do when they feel they're getting pressure even though there are towns not showing towniness. And he KEPT saying he's having the same null/townread about Gerry which he had for the same reason as earlier that had been called out by BOTH gerry and frogg, who you're still saying pointed out the initial slip. He just won't back down from his initial statement even though it's clearly wrong, and that's much more scummy than being wrong in the first place in this scenario. Also, why would he even say Gerry's been contributing less than he has if he's still null-townreading gerry? Seems like standard shade to me.

Last but not least i dislike in what form he gives his Naomi read. He says it like "I also think Lowell is wrong on Naomi..." as to shade Lowell (his scumread) for being wrong on a town, which seems like a tmi read to me if i've ever seen one. That read just doesn't come naturally to you to call Lowell wrong in your case on him if you don't know the alignment of the person being read. And disliked how he phrased "id like to vote" at the end. A struggling finish to a scummy post.

This is what a confident vote looks like VOTE: WhemeStar !

(Chaos made me doubt since his comeback)

[Terata]

I feel like this game is froggy vs sleepy, and I'm not sure on what to say about it.

No opinion on:

Lowell and my interactions
CO and Frogger's interactions
Sheep's response to it
Gerrygoat in general
Lowell on ECM and Naomi

There's a circus going on and you're just focusing on the last act.

Ill try to do this piece by piece, too try and show that I'm trying my best to help out town. Sorry if you prefer me to give my opinions in one big post though.

Gerrygoat in general has been useless IMO. He hasn't contributed anything to the game (less than me)

and I find it suspicious

. Only thing he contributed too was saying sheep slipped, and claimed that he was the one who pointed out the slip, but Frogger did IMO. But I don't think mafia would do what gerry is doing, so Im going to say he's null-town

Sheep and Frogger have been going at it all game. At first I thought it was froggy just trying to get reactions out of others, but then it kept going on and on. After reading both of their posts over and over I think sheep is trying to just blame froggy of not reading his posts/answering his questions/misrepping him. Which I think is a scummy move, just asking questions over and over again. I thought sheep's slip wasn't really a slip, but his posts lately have me thinking he is possible scum.

Lowell- I don't like some of his posts, such as iso #2. Where he voted sheep and said "is the slip real? who knows". Seems to me like he didn't have much reason to vote sheep and he didn't really care. I do like his recap on post #355 though. Also said that EC/Naomi flipped when he had a FOS on them, yet I don't see anything that shows them flippinng out. Possible scum.

look at the 2 bolded statements
I find it really strange how Lowell said AJ's posts are spot on and right. Yet in a previous post, AJ said that he thinks Lowell is scum. Is that a slip? I also think that Lowell is wrong on Naomi, she seems genuine town for me, and I will be against a lynch on her for a while.

EC, please get avatar, pls. EC voted me for not explaining my vote on Hawk? Which I thought I did, and I had nothing else to say about it. Used my previous posts as an example of me saying nothing. And said me getting a vote on me is the reason I became substantial. Which was wrong.

If you guys want more or if I missed some things, ask and Ill try to explain best I can.
For now, id like to vote lowell.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lowell

I

said with gerrry not contributing he could be town because I don't see in any reality where scum doesn't say anything

. Because if you do what Gerry is doing than that will bring suspicion to you.

Also, most of my reads are sheeps from other people, I need to work on making my own reads, I'm new. Right now I read the two sides and agreed one one of them. For instance, as you pointed out. Someone else posted nearly the same thing I did with Lowell's ISO #2. And I agree with that person (forgot who). Same thing with AJ and Lowell, After lowell's reads, AJ said "you said Im town for being spot on with my reads, yet i called you scum".

[Terata]

look a the 2 statements i bolded and be amazed

[Terata]

Calling absolute bull on this one. Show me the receipts.

The only person I've "attacked" for filler so far has been Gerroat. I quoted all of WhemeStar's initial posts to prove against their statement that they already explained their vote against Hawk in the first couple of pages—which they really didn't.

Also, the bold text in your quote suggests you see me as a lurker. Care to elaborate on that? Since I've been added as a replacement I've been on top of this game fully.

Now about avoiding conflict, I have two responses to that:

• I'm not. I don't exactly see how calling out two players (Fro99er, Naomi) for their play styles and persisting that a player justifies their vote (WhemeStar) constitutes "avoiding conflict."
  
  
• If I was, what exactly would your point be? Avoiding conflict isn't necessarily a bad thing, particularly this early in the game. Right now we're still about deliberation and facilitating discussion. I don't have to be going at people like Fro99er is Cooperative Sheep to advance the game in this stage.

Okay,

now

I'm really leaving for the day. Just had to respond to that one.

this is not a towny response to pressure. Strong emotion without really wolf reading him, just wanting to prove him wrong and get him on another path. This last sentence especially shows he was just

responding

, and not doing anything active in terms of solving the player he lashed out on.

Simple defense isn't really something towns get super engaged in unless they're really forced to IME,

and even in that they constantly consider the pushing person's alignment more than i see this post doing.

Apologies, but I'm afraid I don't understand at all what you're getting at here. You dislike my post because you feel the emotion in it is too strong against a player I haven't explicitly stated as scum—I trust that's what you mean by "wolf read?" Are you saying that players should only defend themselves against players they feel are scum? And, to confirm, are you saying by the bold text that it's a scum tell to defend yourself before being threatened with action of lynch? If so, you'd be seriously wrong.

And, yes, my post was a response to Lowell without offering any read on him. You're saying that's a scum tell?

basically, im saying you investigating the accuser back usually comes naturally as town, even if it isn't the main pupose of the post, you usually can notice it. I didn't. And scum does that more yes. But nvm that for now, I just caught a scum

[Terata]

look a the 2 statements i bolded and be amazed

and then look at the sentence right after. I said i find it suspicious he hasnt been posting, but at the same time would mafia really do that?

you said YOU found that suspicious, not that it would appear suspicious to others and therefore a wolf wouldn't do that. COMPLETELY different

[Terata]

Calling absolute bull on this one. Show me the receipts.

The only person I've "attacked" for filler so far has been Gerroat. I quoted all of WhemeStar's initial posts to prove against their statement that they already explained their vote against Hawk in the first couple of pages—which they really didn't.

Also, the bold text in your quote suggests you see me as a lurker. Care to elaborate on that? Since I've been added as a replacement I've been on top of this game fully.

Now about avoiding conflict, I have two responses to that:

• I'm not. I don't exactly see how calling out two players (Fro99er, Naomi) for their play styles and persisting that a player justifies their vote (WhemeStar) constitutes "avoiding conflict."
  
  
• If I was, what exactly would your point be? Avoiding conflict isn't necessarily a bad thing, particularly this early in the game. Right now we're still about deliberation and facilitating discussion. I don't have to be going at people like Fro99er is Cooperative Sheep to advance the game in this stage.

Okay,

now

I'm really leaving for the day. Just had to respond to that one.

this is not a towny response to pressure. Strong emotion without really wolf reading him, just wanting to prove him wrong and get him on another path. This last sentence especially shows he was just

responding

, and not doing anything active in terms of solving the player he lashed out on.

Simple defense isn't really something towns get super engaged in unless they're really forced to IME,

and even in that they constantly consider the pushing person's alignment more than i see this post doing.

Apologies, but I'm afraid I don't understand at all what you're getting at here. You dislike my post because you feel the emotion in it is too strong against a player I haven't explicitly stated as scum—I trust that's what you mean by "wolf read?" Are you saying that players should only defend themselves against players they feel are scum? And, to confirm, are you saying by the bold text that it's a scum tell to defend yourself before being threatened with action of lynch? If so, you'd be seriously wrong.

And, yes, my post was a response to Lowell without offering any read on him. You're saying that's a scum tell?

basically, im saying you investigating the accuser back usually comes naturally as town, even if it isn't the main pupose of the post, you usually can notice it. I didn't. And scum does that more yes. But nvm that for now, I just caught a scum

Want me to reveal?

no..

[Terata]

If you think I'm scum I'm more than happy too. I feel your reaching with post #477. Yes, I find it suspicious that all his posts are useless, but at the same time I don't think that a scum would purposely seem suspicious

but then you don't find it suspicious...

[Terata]

If you think I'm scum I'm more than happy too. I feel your reaching with post #477. Yes, I find it suspicious that all his posts are useless, but at the same time I don't think that a scum would purposely seem suspicious

but then you don't find it suspicious...

Yes, I do find it suspicious, but why would a scum want to be suspicious?

i get your logic, but if your final conclusion is that he's town for what he's doing, then you're not finding his play suspicious. Then you're just expecting others to find it suspicious and therefore it's not suspicious to you. Like i wouldn't necessarily have a problem with you going back on what you mean, but it looks to me like you wanted to shade Gerry and mention he's been worse than you but also keep your earlier read because it's one of the original few you had. I feel like that's a strong scum motive that fits together

[Terata]

i really feel like this is not inexperienced town but inexperienced scum. but im gonna feel so bad if im wrong :/

[Terata]

hmm. i re-read that part. I thought on the first read that the "But I don't think mafia would do what gerry is doing" was only regarding the taking cred for the slip, but i see now you kinda made clear it was a summary of his play. so i kinda retract half of that point (even if i dislike how you mentioned that he was worse than you AND how you helf fast the point that Gerry wasn't the one pointing out the slip)

Actually, can you respond to that? Why you don't listen to Frogg saying it WAS gerry who pointed out Sheep's slip?

[Terata]

Does your read somehow change on Gerry knowing that or is it as strong for the other reason in that he's not solved

[Terata]

No, it doesn't change my read on him, but what does "he's not solved mean?"

well your read on him is that he's not been solving the game, and wolves wouldn't do that no? that's what i meant.

and ok.

What's your read on me?

[Terata]

No, it doesn't change my read on him, but what does "he's not solved mean?"

well your read on him is that he's not been solving the game, and wolves wouldn't do that no? that's what i meant.

and ok.

What's your read on me?

Your town, I like how your pushing me and other players.

Which other players specifically?

[Terata]

can you actually give a full reads list. I didn't know you had me town for example. Maybe there are more hidden people in there. you don't have to give more than names if you don't want to, but a few keywords each would be widely appriciated if you have the time

[Terata]

Towns:

Frogg- solving, mindmeld, pressuring

Lil Uzi Vert- Believable towny reasoning for early thoughts about suspicion
Naomi- emotional towny outlash, ok interactions

AJ- Towny confidence+compactness in his reads.

PenguinPower- Does his own thing in a confident way, though this is null to town, since it could be NAI if it's his personality

Null:-

Lowell (ill be able to place him after i ISO)
gerry- isn't trying

Scum

Sheep- is trying but not being towny

Hawk- fallen off hardest of all (except maybe gerry, but lol!gerry). Some weird sheeping here and there and not a lot of original thoughts that's not defending himself
ECMitchell- Don't feel a strong drive to solve. Also gutfeeling mostly
ChaosOmega- Already said case, but i doubt a bit from his response to Frog's case, mostly the WIFOM bit, im weak to that sorta stuff sorry. Also wanted to solve with me after which is never bad.

WhemeStar- Passive, apologetic, sheepy without admitting it and some wolfy wordings


Here's mine, i felt bad asking you for one while not doing 1 myself

[Terata]

i have too many scum. People step up your game

Also, another reason that helped my LUV read was that i heard them called low hanging fruit generally, and i think the playstyle kinda fits to that. And i don't think they would be able to fake some of the reads they gave earlier so well if scum. So perhaps im going a little to easy on them. idk ill reevaluate later

[Terata]

Frogg is pretty obvious, but Naomi im more interested in, i think she seems like an active player overall and wonder what specifically makes you townread her. Also you dont have to think Hawk has fell off, just give your own thoughts on him.

(btw, are all your reads ordered? or is it just general tiers?)

[Terata]

yes i get that, i just wondered if for example the top white one is more towny than the bottom white one etc or if all in the white tier is at the same level

[Terata]

Frogg is pretty obvious, but Naomi im more interested in, i think she seems like an active player overall and wonder what specifically makes you townread her. Also you dont have to think Hawk has fell off, just give your own thoughts on him.

(btw, are all your reads ordered? or is it just general tiers?)

I've liked her posts since her first one. I don't have much else to say besides that, her posts seem town genuine.

ok, thoughts on hawk?

[Terata]

No. I've already gone into great detail on my terata town read. It's in my ISO.

Sure enough. Thanks for pointing that out. From what I'm reading, it seems like your town read on Terata is based on a game well played. You are saying he's transparent in his thought processes and making a great effort to make sense of the game. You also like his tone, at least in contrast to Cooperative Sheep's. I can get where you're coming from with that, but I do disagree.

Want me to reveal?

no..

Anyone you want me to go into more detail on?

The interaction between Terata and WhemeStar raises some red flags for me. Wheme is repeatedly asking for validation to take the next step on whatever action. While he's posing the question to the board, this recent rally has primarily been between him and Terata, and it's coming off to me as seeking validation

from a partner

. "You really are putting pressure on me. Should I claim?" and, "Here, I've given some answers. Is that sufficient? Should I keep talking?"

My hunch right now is that they're paired. Terata dismissed my earlier comments by saying, "But nevermind that, I've caught scum!" Seemed very certain to me, almost in a way that he realized WhemeStar might definitely be lynched today, and he wants to make sure he's seen as one of those who championed this move. After I questioned his certainty, shortly after he posts this:

i really feel like this is not inexperienced town but inexperienced scum. but im gonna feel so bad if im wrong :/

"But I

could

be wrong, and I'll feel bad of course if I am."

By the way, I disagree very much that a lynch on a scummy player is something to feel bad about—even if they show as town. Eliminating the scummy players helps us eventually reach the scum themselves.

I definitely want to move forward in lynching WhemeStar at this point. More so than Cooperative Sheep.

[Terata]

look a the 2 statements i bolded and be amazed

I find that to be a misrep of his position - if you look at the first bold he goes on to say, basically, Gerry is too scummy to be scum - which is in line with his other statement.

yeah if you keep reading i corrected myself

[Terata]

If 1 other person thinks its a viable world you're laying out EC, ill respond. otherwise ill just treat it the same way you probably would if someone called sheep/frogg partners

[Terata]

So your willing to lynch me even though mafia will probably kill me tonight?

Becausethis is all fucking wifom

IF you are town they might try to kill someone else just to leave you alive for us to be like "why is Wheme alive"

horrible horrible wifom

If I was scum why would I claim that then? I would tell my team In daychat that I'm gonna reveal, and they would obviously tell me not to because of the reasons you stated would they not?

i feel like such a high % of your defense has been WIFOM, i don't like it at all, WIFOM isn't the natural towny reaction to people disbelieving a claim imo.

My usual way of dealing with things is to not risk lynching PR's and going elsewhere, i haven't decided where im at yet.

[Terata]

Hawk's first 2 paragraphs in #575 where he explained some thought processes from before was towny to me.

[Terata]

EC still feels sleazy and agenda-y to me. I can't completely explain it

[Terata]

Can someone explain the Rolestopper role to me (or link me to a role explanation). I've only played with roleblocker before, and that stops all actions like vig/cop/etc, but not the mafia factional kill if it's town sided. Does it do that here from what i've read?

[Terata]

Though why i can't townread Hawk strongly for his list even though i agree with a lot of it is mostly because he's berating the playstyle of his main scumread (Sheep) while constantly saying "either you're scum or you're town with terrible logic and i wanna lynch you regardless". And that feeling shines through in the entire posts. I could see that both coming from annoyed town and scum that just has a problem straight up saying he thinks a townie is for sure scum.

[Terata]

UNVOTE: WhemeStar

i just don't like laying at L-2 when im not decided yet

[Terata]

i just iso'd Lowell. First off, i don't think the "slip" is ever a thing. Someone just doesn't slip on that kind of level to call someone right when they called them scum. Slips that actually works is of a different kind, where the mindset of the person just doesn't line up with a town mindset but it does as a scum mindset. What he did doesn't make sense as either.
Second, i think towards the second half of his posting, he's felt very free-flowey and real to me. So my gut says town there even though i think his accusation about "derailment of sheep wagon" vs Chaos is pretty bullshit. I think it's a thought that a town can get if they have preconvinced thoughts about whether a wagon is good/bad.

i think he's likely town

[Terata]

Same list as earlier but updated on some parts.

Strong Towns:

Frogg- solving, mindmeld, pressuring

Lil Uzi Vert- Believable towny reasoning for early thoughts about suspicion
Naomi- emotional towny outlash, ok interactions

Decently strong towns:

AJ- Towny confidence+compactness in his reads.

Lowell-Free-flowey and sounds like he's solving the times he's been here. He gives real-sounding thoughts that doesn't seem like a try to get townread to me.
gerry- isn't trying

Weak towns:

Hawk- beginning of #575's towny. On return he's not as focused on defense as he was early game, but is more solving forward. Though big bits of his reads still feels kinda like he's pushing sheep for being bad more than scummy. Which is a little worrying.
PenguinPower- he's confident, but need much more from him to lock in as a real read, it's mostly tone so far.

Nulls:

Gerry- im hyped to see you start solving

Null to scum:

Sheep- i have real problems reading this guy because of his poststyle/personality. i'd rather lynch elsewhere for now since i have worse feelings elsewhere, but i won't hard defend him if my townreads agree together on lynching him.

Scum leans:

ChaosOmega- Already said case, but i doubt a bit from his response to Frog's case, mostly the WIFOM bit, im weak to that sorta stuff sorry. Also wanted to solve with me after which is never bad.
ECMitchell- Don't feel a strong drive to solve. Also gutfeeling mostly.
WhemeStar*- Passive, apologetic, sheepy without admitting it and some wolfy wordings. CLAIMED. gonna decide how to deal with it

[Terata]

VOTE: ECMitchell

i wanna sit here for a bit

[Terata]

WhemeStar [L-3] ChaosOmega, ECMitchell, Fro99er, PenguinPower
Hawk [L-4] Aj the Epic, Cooperative Sheep, WhemeStar
ChaosOmega [L-6] Lowell
Cooperative Sheep [L-6] Hawk
Lowell [L-5] Naomi-Tan, WhemeStar
Gerryoat [L-6] Lil Uzi Vert
ECMitchell [L-6] Terata

here's a VC that i think is right

[Terata]

Can someone explain the Rolestopper role to me (or link me to a role explanation)

We have a site wiki for a reason. Use it.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Rolestopper

thanks

im lazy

[Terata]

ok, so if Wheme is a town rolestopper, and say he targets me for example, and no kill goes through in the night. Then i've been shot for sure right? or could it be that mafia let me make the factional kill and i got stopped from doing the kill that way?

[Terata]

or could it be that mafia let me make the factional kill and i got stopped from doing the kill that way?

WHAT?

i took me as an example from your perspective. Say im mafia and i made the kill in the night and the rolestopper targetted me, does the kill go through?

[Terata]

or i mean, uhh, you caught me there Frogg! WOOPS!

[Terata]

i did read but didn't see that specified. But thnx. bad day?

[Terata]

there's a difference (a big one) between trying to appear to solve, which is the feeling im getting from you, and not caring at all, which is Gerry. And i don't have a problem with the fact you're scum reading me. But that a big part of why you're scum reading me is w/w with Wheme, is insane in a bad way

[Terata]

and if Wheme is scum with you, it makes so much sense for you to try to condemn me pre-flip as w/w with him. i just thought of that lol.

[Terata]

And lol at pushing scum on me for trying to understand the powers of a role. If something is pro-scum, it's pro-town for us to know how that works regardless so you're making 0 sense

[Terata]

And lol at pushing scum on me for trying to understand the powers of a role. If something is pro-scum, it's pro-town for us to know how that works regardless so you're making 0 sense

i misread what you said, but i asked how a townrole works once it's outted, and obviously at least 1 member of scum can discuss that in scum chat regardless. So it's already known info to the scum, so why shouldn't town know it too?

[Terata]

Also I don't see associative things between me and Lowell that AJ was pointing out... like maybe we were on similar wagon's around similar times but that's all?

So the fact that you two both decided to beat a dead sheep was a part of it. The second is that Lowell's posture after I stated this was to say you're scummy but not as scummy as Sheep (as seen by his vote and only FOS on you). Last, you do have a tendency to defend him subtly, specifically in your case vs sheep when you talk about cooperation and shit. And of course you being really into Wheme being town hasn't been that helpful in dissuading my feelings on this. Lowell won't even give a read on Wheme.

Definitely can't say that I understand how committal you are on Lowell. To me, he's pretty cut and dry.

VOTE: Lowell

I will admit though I'm more confident on him being scum. He's blatantly just going for big wagons.

Also, Terata's actions recently are suspect. He actually has Gerry down twice in his reads, null and weak town He's reading Lowell as town... On the same level of his read on me which is unequivocally garbage. And his Chaos read being scum leans is definitely FOTM rather than actual belief. My belief is he's trying to gauge some reads off of other people and is a bit behind on trends.

I want Fro99er to tell me what about Lowell/Terata's vote switches made him comfortable following that. I know you townread Terata but Lowell looks like a freelancer willing to lynch anyone BUT Wheme at this point.

P-edit: Yeah I don't know if terata is out of his league vs ECMitchell or that's just strong town mitchell but Terata's definitely not winning this argument.

lol, shading me for not removing the old placement of Gerry from my list. He's null btw. And why are you putting a "winner" in an argument about bs? he literally shaded me for wanting to understand the claimed role. You wanna talk about why you think my reads are garbage, then go ahead, but blatant shading isn't getting anywhere.

Also, what does FOTM mean?

[Terata]

there's a difference (a big one) between trying to appear to solve, which is the feeling im getting from you, and not caring at all, which is Gerry. And i don't have a problem with the fact you're scum reading me. But that a big part of why you're scum reading me is w/w with Wheme, is insane in a bad way

Agreed, there's a difference there. But that's not what you accused me of doing in your post. "Doesn't feel drive to solve," is an entirely different statement from "is trying too hard to appear like he's solving."

You're all over the place my man.

You made up the "too hard" yourself. You're giving out the image of solving, but i don't get the hunty vibes and the DRIVE TO SOLVE from your posts. While Gerry is simply not giving a fk. Not sure where you're going with this line but it's not a good look for you.

[Terata]

welcome!

[Terata]

sorry for absence. im multitabling in 2 faster game on another site so it's easy to procrastinate posting in this slow one. Anyway, ill go to sleep soon, but will be active tomorrow and catch up on stuff.

tho i did skim SOME posts, and i'm more inclined to think Hawk is town, his wavering/uncertainty seems towny. And i see you think Wheme's town, i wanna discuss that tomorrow with you.

[Terata]

even though i generally agree with the fact that scum usually easier believes joke claims like that and goes with it, i still don't feel great about a Hawk lynch right now. I'm probably leaning towards a Wheme lynch after all, since i kinda agreed with Chaos when he said Scum will just be able to play around it probably if we leave Wheme alive.

i didn't really get a strong feeling on unnknown from the catch up, but i think the slot is town from lil, so i'll look into that more later days.

i wouldn't be against a Sheep lynch, but i think we got a bigger chance in hitting scum in Wheme.

VOTE: WhemeStar

I have more concrete reasons in my head for why i think Wheme's scummy, while EC is just a gutfeeling. And even if i were more certain i wouldn't get a following there anyway i think from what ive read. So i think this is my best vote

[Terata]

im so confused by all these setup shenanigans and what that means to others alignments. Im probably just gonna sheep Frogg if he votes someone i think is a decent vote since i think he's both a veteran (good for setup shit) and town

[Terata]

My wagon has 0 resistance. Do you really think a scum would be lynched so easily

well, let's assume you're scum for a second. then there's only 2 scum outside of you. And i don't think most people would put themselves out there to hard defend you as a teammate with how much pressure there's been on you today. Tbh i think they would just bus or just assess where the flow is going.

So i don't think the fact that there's not much resistance to your lynch makes you town

[Terata]

still feel Lowell has a towny straight to the point tone and think he's just likely town lhf. And if im right on Lowell, i think there has to be scum in his vote right now. Sheep is the one i feel worst about individually there. So VOTE: Cooperative Sheep. i would trust you if you found a better cfd Frogg, but i just don't like the Lowell lynch today

[Terata]

im feeling better about not voting in the claims tbh.

[Terata]

FeelsGoodMan. gonna ISO and see who looks good from sheep interactions later.

[Terata]

Hypothetically though I'm still #1 in that.

Okay so my reservation with Fitz is I liked naomi tan's posts (his predecessor). Could see it being CO or

terata

.

rofl. why did i bus there again with so many other people in the lynch-discussion and sheep laying forgotten until i brought him up again?

[Terata]

i still dont get how and where CO cc'd wheme. can some1 explain that in very simple terms to me

[Terata]

ah.

[Terata]

I would mayyybe agree if he started the push on me and wheme today, whichbwould be super weird as scum. But he made a "case" on why me and wheme are scum together d1, and now he's just too lazy to reevaluate when new important info shows up. And with townread aj still coming into today calling me scum scumand only frog/alis so far had called me strong town (with frog townreading me for other reasons regardless and alis being his loyal follower), maybe he didnt see my lynch as an impossibility.

But regardless of this, i dont ever see someone sticking to their earlier cases too hard when new info comes up as towny and thats a bad read. With that said, dont risk an early lynch, we need this day to pack this game up

[Terata]

Ftr i think everyone except unknown gets big points for voting sheep.

[Terata]

And without looking back my initial feelin is that fitz way of flaming someone for voting scum after the lynch already went through is maybe towny considering fitz would know sheep was gonna flip red and that didnt seem like the case to me at that time. But imma look back at that later to see if i still feel that way

[Terata]

Ftr i think everyone except unknown gets big points for voting sheep.

I disagree with the first half, especially when you include "I think"

"i think" as in "my opinion".

Who do you think doesnt get any/much cred for the sheep vote then?

[Terata]

pdodge cuz lol

same. ill try to do some isoing next 2 days before i go away for 4 days on thursday-sun

[Terata]

pls stop voting (and some1 unvote). i think ECM's L-1 now. that's where im leaning too, but PLEASE don't end the day this early.

[Terata]

@Mod i think it's supposed to say L-2 and not L-3 after ECMitchell considering it's 4/6 in the VC

[Terata]

Here's my own thoughts i took during the iso. I started writing down the post numbers half way through and it's super messy, but sry i don't have the energy to correct it all. Ask me if you're confused

Spoiler:

Gerry: #35 feels weirdly phrased in a way i could see being partners. "You would have preferred I denied something without even knowing what it was? " +

Chaos: " I'll remind people that I've had issues with Chaos for some time now, just in case anyone wants to have a complaint about me hopping on that wagon if it catches much more steam " "I'm still fine calling Chaos scum though, I just got there on the WK road." "we're discussing a scumread on Chaos." he seems to want to make it VERY clear he's scumreading Chaos and he seems very self-aware of what he's doing. So even though i think it would usually look good for Choas it gives me distancy vibes. He also had basically 2 scum reads in Hawk/Chaos but put all real pressure on Hawk and only mentioned Chaos in the passing. And later when the pressure on Lowell started he STILL kept Chaos as his second lynch and slipped in Lowell as first without really mentioning him much earlier.

Wheme: #632 really feels like spew. like hard spew. And with how sheep talked early about scum Whiteknighting, i wouldn't be suprised if that's a big part of his play.

EC: Just no interactions

Lowell: towntown "So you would have been okay with the pressure on WhemeStar if you'd thought of it before me? Is that a habit that will carry through the game? Feels like it would make you hard to cooperate with if town." He's using "@Lowell" several times for meh questions where it doesn't really fit in. Dunno what to make of that. #1291:i feel like scum often wants to avoid being seen as having tmi when talking about pre-flips. Maybe this read is dumb, but im giving lowell townpoints for sheep's post. Also the way Lowell jumped to sheep's top lynch towards the end and being the CW obviously looks good for Lowell

Penguin/Alisae: Basically no interactions, but Penguin didn't play and Alisae subbed in towards the end, so i won't read into that.

AJ: #223: "but I'll sheep AJ for the moment." a bit blatant if partners, but idk. "If you have suggestions for future games I'd love to hear them.." this doesn't strike me as a tone that's designed to please AJ, like it's been at other times to others. He's more lowkey salty for AJ pushing him, which could be because AJ was accusing a partner.

Naomi/HavingFitz: "That's an interesting way to look at it - I don't think I can fully come with you on it" "Why would you say there is red between us three when everything you've said on the matter has me and Terata as green. Isn't that an explicit contradiction."- Naomi. ++ #321 also +

Lil/unknown: "Avoiding LilUzi because he's currently less active." "You then attack Uzi (one of my attackers)" hm. The part in #321 where he responds to Lil's vote doesn't feel at all like a partner interactions. #1222 "I feel safe in the knowledge

you'll

have a lot of people to lynch before I'm the worst lurker " i think sheep's phrasing here is super spew-y

Frogg: towntown. Scum doesn't use 70% of their posts responding/trying to justify his own actions to a partner. thats a partner interaction approximately 0 % of the time.

interesting post connected to several: #1206: TMI/spew? or defending a partner in the claims?

I've iso'd Sheep to look for spew more than partner interaction, because they're much harder to differentiate. +++ = lock clear ++ = looks good, + = looks slightly good. - = something pinged me

+++: Frogg
++: Naomi/fitz, Lil/unknown, Wheme, Lowell
+: Gerry

- (ordered worst first): EC, Chaos, AJ

[Terata]

Dead discussion is dead. And sadly i won't be able to revive it just yet since im going away tomorrow.

@Mod V/LA until sunday evening/monday.

[Terata]

am i the only one confused af from all these unprovoked claims this game? like wtf

[Terata]

am i the only one confused af from all these unprovoked claims this game? like wtf

He could be trying to call chaos out on his BS of fake invest claim. IDK

but he claimed it as a question of what it possibly could mean to Frogg... not as a sure push. that's so not worth

[Terata]

am i the only one confused af from all these unprovoked claims this game? like wtf

He could be trying to call chaos out on his BS of fake invest claim. IDK

but he claimed it as a question of what it possibly could mean to Frogg... not as a sure push. that's so not worth

Scum's already down a member, they have at most 2 left. We can shaft them super hard on associative tells and power balances, and I was already not happy with how Chaos handled yesterday.

Really, Chaos claiming tracker and then getting nothing back to us is kinda bullshit.

Especially claiming THAT ROLE proved Wheme was scum.

So you hated it so much you decided to do the same? claiming a role without any useful info. okay.

W/e, it's already claimed, no value in discussing whether it was a good or bad move i guess

[Terata]

yeah, because claiming PR isn't giving mafia any info unless you claim the exact role. lol.

Anyway, @Frogg, would you say there's almost always a town counterpart to an odd night role on this site. Because i usually expect a town even night role if we know there to be an odd night role in the game on my other site. If that's the case, then i'm counting 5 claimed PR's, which sounds like way too much

Town Backup
Town Rolestopper odd night
Town x even night (im asking if this is even probably a thing tho)
Town Tracker
Town investigative role

[Terata]

I'm now feeling pretty good about AJ as town. There's no reason for him to softclaim a weak-ish role with that many PRs already claimed and no threat on him whatsoever.

And if he's town I'm even more certain at least one scum (plus sheep) was on my wagon, because AJ would have been the obvious scapegoat if I had been lynched (since he tunneled me like whoa), or the obvious one to lead the D2 wagon on me if we lynched town. Point is I can easily envision a plan where scum lynches someone else D1, then sits back and lets AJ lead a wagon on me D2. AJ just being scum and doing all that actually makes slightly less sense to me.

i agree that of the PR claims, it would make more sense if Chaos was the scum than AJ with how things have played out

[Terata]

Were never lynching frog. The push is awful and everone that actualy believe the claim should either reread d1 interactions or they are just scum. What we need to do now is to ask alisea over and over if she can confirm shes either tracker or mafia, and never is doing a shit play here. And tell us shes never done a shut play like this b4

[Terata]

Ok. Yeah i thought about watcher and said tracker. And sry ali, ill say he from now on.

[Terata]

Im on phone and skimming, but my initial theory is that ali didnt even plan on guiltying frog but just wanted to push the hammer thing by itself, and when he noticed that felt weak by itself he decided to fakeclaim

[Terata]

Why do we need 6 towns frog? We got 4 lynches right? So if we lynch ali today we just need 1 more

[Terata]

Although i dont necessarily think im ready to include AJ in my conf towns just yet. Both of him/Ali could technically be scum no?

[Terata]

why am i alive..

[Terata]

i guess ill have to reread even though i thought i wouldn't have to

[Terata]

but there will take a lot for me to not end up lynching Innocent/Fitz

[Terata]

btw Frogg, im a little salty you just wanted to get speed lynched there. i really think we could've gotten ali lynched the day you died and you were just cleared. Unknown was for it, Gerry for it, me for it, and idk who else

[Terata]

Holy shit stop voting.i dont wanna lose a game thats 100% solvable due to uncaring, lazy town hammers. I agree 100% with innocent even though he/she is very probably a lynch

[Terata]

im gonna do my own iso-research sometime later this week, but my initial feeling is exactly the same as Unknown just said, that Fitz has literally 1 goal in mind, and that's to get in exactly 2 mislynches, and he builds cases around that

[Terata]

and regardless if it's correct on fitz or not, the reaction feels very towny from unknown

[Terata]

Im back. I got super busy IRL and again im multitabling like a moron in a faster game. But im not gonna say more on that, cuz it's pointless.

So, some thoughts.

I'm never gonna vote Lowell this game, ever. The reason i caught sheep was because i thought Lowell felt town and i went looking for scum on that Wagon and sheep was the least towny one. I just don't ever see things playing out like they did if Lowell's scum.

I still think the things i wrote about Sheep's comments on the unknown slot was pretty w/v-looking / spewy. And i think Unknowns way of handling this day has felt the towniest. Others have only been making cases made to convince others to lynch specific people while unknown has actually tried to have a conversation with people and evaluating them. Their way of swapping slowly from thinking i was town to re-isoing and finding things they disliked to still suspecting others felt VERY real to me. Also maybe im stupid but im buying the stuff about them not knowing about scum's day-chat and from feeling unknown out from reading their posts, i don't think they're a player to try to clear themselves from something that stupid. So im locking in them as town too.

So for me the path from here is pretty easy. just lynch fitz/IAI, and be done with it. But i know im a suspect so it isn't that easy.

Ok, so the biggest reason (from what i've precieved) to why IAI says im scum is that "Alisae wouldn't have made the fakeclaim if the partner is in the back-then-suspects". This is terrible logic. Scum KNOWS people evaluate their play after they die, so saying that Alisae and her partner didn't even think about how his claim would look after the flip is just beyond bad. Since scum would know for sure this logic would be taken up, if not by themselves (if you're scum) it will be taken up by the town (if someone else is the last scum). Right now im leaning SLIGHTLY more towards fitz, simply because you have focused so little on preparing the second mislynch after me if you're scum, and you're gonna look pretty bad when i flip town. This is wifom too of course and you could totally be scum doing this, but the way you swapped your second suspect in the span of 1 page felt like a move that scum perhaps wouldn't make if they're focused on getting me lynched.

But regardless, if im scum, and Frogg is harddefending me for the rest of the game, WHY would you fakeclaim a red on FROGG OF ALL PEOPLE that will lead you straight to the win. That no1 has taken this up yet is weirding me out.

So yeah, Lowell town, unknown town, 1 of fitz and IAI scum, leaning fitz.

[Terata]

i think interacting a bit with Unknown is how i wanna spend my time right now, since Lowell already thinks im town, and if i get you to realise im town (and im right on both of you), we've won the game

[Terata]

First and only read: frogg town. I think the way hes talking down to sheep constantly while pressuring is kinda hard to fake well as scum. Some1 can fill me in ok froggs scum play?

I havent played with sheep b4 obv, but he strikes me as a person that would defend himself awkardly as either alignment, so while i think towns could be pinged by his weird wordings, i dont rly think its scummy.

I would like to know why Wheme thinks the 3 agreeing with froggs push looked scummy to him. You think sheep has posted towny enough for it to be weird for townies to push on him too? I certainly dont and would love some expanding

Can you tell me how often Frogger and Terata play together? Would help me get a better feel for this post because it's the first one and Frog seems like a good player to have on your side.

never. first game on the site

[Terata]

Towns:

Frogg

Lowell
gerry

Scum:

Sheep
Hawk

Lil Uzi Vert

i did reread Sheep, even if i still stand by he would over-defend himself awkwardly as either alignment, i think i still lean scum to the way he's not posted even 1 thing i could find towny

It doesn't really make sense to defend someone and scum-read them at the same time.

well it kinda does. i had a close to null read on him since by his posting style i thought he would post awkwardly as both alignments (ive played with loads of people like that), and i still think that. So my mind-set was that even if he was town d1 he would get scum read a lot because of his playstyle and i wanted to lynch someone i didn't have such a personality read on.

Why i voted him later was as i said he was the least-town read person i had that was voting Lowell at the time, who i thought was town and a mislynch that at least 1 scum for sure would be on.

[Terata]

So i didn't really have a strong scum read on sheep posting-wise, even towards the end, i just thought he was the most likely scum on Lowell because of PoE and townreads of various degrees on the other voters.

[Terata]

And if i wpould bus sheep, why the fk would i have such a lame ass reason as that and get less cred than if i listed loads of scummy stuff i saw sheep do. If im scum and know sheep is scum, then i have loads of such reason to just list up that i actuslly believe in because i know it to be true.

It just makes no sense for me to be like "eh i think lowell is town and i think there's a scum in the voters so im voting sheep" instead of "SHEEP IS SCUMMY BECAUSE X, Y AND Z" and get cred.

AIA also using this as a point against me is ??

[Terata]

still feel Lowell has a towny straight to the point tone and think he's just likely town lhf. And if im right on Lowell, i think there has to be scum in his vote right now. Sheep is the one i feel worst about individually there. So VOTE: Cooperative Sheep. i would trust you if you found a better cfd Frogg, but i just don't like the Lowell lynch today

And then there is.....

im confused by this post though if IAI is town. Why would one of the main points to why he might be wrong in his read on me be weirded out smiley and he has absolutely no thoughts on it? I would expect either some kind of possible explanation so it fits in his world like "oh but he voted his partner because x" or a comment adding some doubt to his read, like "there's at least 1 point in his favour", but the comment just quotes my post and subtly shades it without giving any thoughts.

JUST SO WEIRD

[Terata]

Honestly, I can't see a way to convince anyone of Havingfitz being the last scum. If Terata is Town then Town will 99% lose. I'll vote when we are ready to end day.

really?

[Terata]

Lowell....what do you think of the Terata case?

I don't know. I would be surprised if it's him but I won't rule anyone out.

Basically I think Unknown has more to gain by jumping on the sheep wagon at the end of D1 to theatrically hammer than terata does earlier in the wagon. Also, frogger was townreading terata pretty hard so the Ali move doesn't make a ton of sense to save terata.

Although it is also true that terata being on the sheep wagon would explain why they couldn't turn the lynch to me

-- terata abandoning ship when sheep got to dangerous ground would be too obvious.

tl:dr, not sold.

You mean why scum couldn't turn after i voted? Frogg followed me and he had a lot of influence. Not weird that they couldn't back the lynch back to you imo when Alisae had already tied himself to Frogg and Frogg followed me onto Sheep.

[Terata]

Lowell....what do you think of the Terata case?

I don't know. I would be surprised if it's him but I won't rule anyone out.

Basically I think Unknown has more to gain by jumping on the sheep wagon at the end of D1 to theatrically hammer than terata does earlier in the wagon. Also, frogger was townreading terata pretty hard so the Ali move doesn't make a ton of sense to save terata.

Although it is also true that terata being on the sheep wagon would explain why they couldn't turn the lynch to me

-- terata abandoning ship when sheep got to dangerous ground would be too obvious.

tl:dr, not sold.

You mean why scum couldn't turn after i voted? Frogg followed me and he had a lot of influence. Not weird that they couldn't back the lynch back to you imo when Alisae had already tied himself to Frogg and Frogg followed me onto Sheep.

Since if Sheep is the one being wagoned, and Alisae (one of the partners) is voting Frogg too (he didn't really have a choice but to follow Frogg with how he had been treating Frogg previously, and Hawk also made the wagon happen before Alisae felt forced to vote) then there's only 1 partner left outside of that. So why would it be weird that the wagon on you couldn't happen if im town?

[Terata]

Here's my own thoughts i took during the iso. I started writing down the post numbers half way through and it's super messy, but sry i don't have the energy to correct it all. Ask me if you're confused

Spoiler:

Gerry: #35 feels weirdly phrased in a way i could see being partners. "You would have preferred I denied something without even knowing what it was? " +

Chaos: " I'll remind people that I've had issues with Chaos for some time now, just in case anyone wants to have a complaint about me hopping on that wagon if it catches much more steam " "I'm still fine calling Chaos scum though, I just got there on the WK road." "we're discussing a scumread on Chaos." he seems to want to make it VERY clear he's scumreading Chaos and he seems very self-aware of what he's doing. So even though i think it would usually look good for Choas it gives me distancy vibes. He also had basically 2 scum reads in Hawk/Chaos but put all real pressure on Hawk and only mentioned Chaos in the passing. And later when the pressure on Lowell started he STILL kept Chaos as his second lynch and slipped in Lowell as first without really mentioning him much earlier.

Wheme: #632 really feels like spew. like hard spew. And with how sheep talked early about scum Whiteknighting, i wouldn't be suprised if that's a big part of his play.

EC: Just no interactions

Lowell: towntown "So you would have been okay with the pressure on WhemeStar if you'd thought of it before me? Is that a habit that will carry through the game? Feels like it would make you hard to cooperate with if town." He's using "@Lowell" several times for meh questions where it doesn't really fit in. Dunno what to make of that. #1291:i feel like scum often wants to avoid being seen as having tmi when talking about pre-flips. Maybe this read is dumb, but im giving lowell townpoints for sheep's post. Also the way Lowell jumped to sheep's top lynch towards the end and being the CW obviously looks good for Lowell

Penguin/Alisae: Basically no interactions, but Penguin didn't play and Alisae subbed in towards the end, so i won't read into that.

AJ: #223: "but I'll sheep AJ for the moment." a bit blatant if partners, but idk. "If you have suggestions for future games I'd love to hear them.." this doesn't strike me as a tone that's designed to please AJ, like it's been at other times to others. He's more lowkey salty for AJ pushing him, which could be because AJ was accusing a partner.

Naomi/HavingFitz: "That's an interesting way to look at it - I don't think I can fully come with you on it" "Why would you say there is red between us three when everything you've said on the matter has me and Terata as green. Isn't that an explicit contradiction."- Naomi. ++ #321 also +

Lil/unknown: "Avoiding LilUzi because he's currently less active." "You then attack Uzi (one of my attackers)" hm. The part in #321 where he responds to Lil's vote doesn't feel at all like a partner interactions. #1222 "I feel safe in the knowledge

you'll

have a lot of people to lynch before I'm the worst lurker " i think sheep's phrasing here is super spew-y

Frogg: towntown. Scum doesn't use 70% of their posts responding/trying to justify his own actions to a partner. thats a partner interaction approximately 0 % of the time.

interesting post connected to several: #1206: TMI/spew? or defending a partner in the claims?

I've iso'd Sheep to look for spew more than partner interaction, because they're much harder to differentiate. +++ = lock clear ++ = looks good, + = looks slightly good. - = something pinged me

+++: Frogg
++: Naomi/fitz, Lil/unknown, Wheme, Lowell
+: Gerry

- (ordered worst first): EC, Chaos, AJ

Terata what do you think about your comments here regarding penguin/aliseas slot? Would you agree you are defending them here? Why would you dismiss no interactions with sheep for them but give my slot the worst score for doing the same thing?

Would you agree that is how scum might act with their partner?

It's simple. EC was in the thread a lot and actually played the game. Sheep did too. So it would've made sense for it to be at least some discussion both were involved in. But Penguin literally just popped in and didn't interact with anyone, so it's not weird he and penguin didn't have any discussion.

And to your second question. Are you refering to my initial read, where i gave "-" points for having no interactions? Then yes, i think scum usually have problems interacting back and forth with one another.

If you're refering to my own post and if i would deal with my reads as i did if i were scum with PP/Ali, then it's a terribly leading question, and yes i probably would since the reason for my read i made this game would make sense if i were scum aswell.

[Terata]

and AIA, if you have any questions you actually want an ANSWER to and are not just leading questions that's there to imply me as scum, then you can go ahead and ask me. I'm slightly leaning towards it being fitz after all, so trying to get you out of your tunnel is worth my time

[Terata]

actually, now i remember fitz's reaction to the sheep lynch after it was hammered and b4 the flip was pretty towny. i swapped again, im probably leaning towards it being you slightly. But go ahead and ask anyway, since you might be town

[Terata]

also forgot the Naomi (fitz slot) comment to sheep about him contradicting himself, god i was away for so long i should reread my notes again. Im probably lynching AIA today after all.

[Terata]

oh hey. what's the actual vc right now? i hate not being able to post one

[Terata]

Lowell your biggest issue is that your letting

Alisae's actions convince you that fitz and IAI are innocent.

It's actually incredibly stupid.

Can you say why I'm scum other than because Ali convinced u that her teammate is someone who wasn't in danger.

Wait did he actually say that? i skimmed past most of the stuff that weren't directly about me since i felt stressed being prodded and saw all the accusations about me.

That's actually suuuper terrible for us if he's gonna stick with that logic

[Terata]

Terata, can you explain to me why IAI is your pick over Havingfitz in more detail? Otherwise it looks like you are trying to vote him to make him vote me in order to survive (because Town does that too)

My hands are freezing and I'm slow messaging on my phone. I'll be home soon.

I don't really follow your logic in the second sentence.

But reasoning for why i suspect IAI a bit more.

"Naomi/HavingFitz: "That's an interesting way to look at it - I don't think I can fully come with you on it" "Why would you say there is red between us three when everything you've said on the matter has me and Terata as green. Isn't that an explicit contradiction."- Naomi. ++ #321 also +"

this i copied from my notes of ISO'ing sheep. I still think Naomi calling sheep contradictory was pretty w/v looking. And Fitz started arguing with someone (you i think?) after sheep was lynched about how bad it was that sheep was lynched. Scum in that situation would know their partner was gonna flip red in a little while and connecting himself to sheep would be a weird move (unless WIFOM but even in that case i think it's decently hard to fake well, and it looked believable to me).

Also even though i think AIA's push on me has looked like he believes in it i have less stuff i've felt towny about from him. Also the post i quoted with him not having ANY thoughts at all about my vote on sheep even though it was heavily discussed and obviously an important moment. Just kinda slipped it in there.

And even though he has felt like he believes the push, he's also said that "it's possible im wrong, this is why blablabla" when he was talking to you earlier. And i don't think his questioning of me has reflected that. He's "asked" his question in a way that already feels decided, more like a case than wanting to know the answers from me. And the very last post from him today reflected that thought i had aswell. He had a chance to ask me for stuff and the thing he said was "would you say this is how scum would deal with their partners?" or something like that, implying im supposed to call myself scum (if i interpreted the question right). Just feelt wrong.

The reason why i suspected Fitz first was that i didn't remember the interactions from Naomi with Sheep and his way of handing sheep post-hammer and that he has felt kind of on the sidelines a big part of today. And his case on you felt bad aswell. Tbh i think it could be both of them but im leaning IAI

[Terata]

Im back. I got super busy IRL and again im multitabling like a moron in a faster game. But im not gonna say more on that, cuz it's pointless.

So, some thoughts.

I'm never gonna vote Lowell this game, ever. The reason i caught sheep was because i thought Lowell felt town and i went looking for scum on that Wagon and sheep was the least towny one. I just don't ever see things playing out like they did if Lowell's scum.

I still think the things i wrote about Sheep's comments on the unknown slot was pretty w/v-looking / spewy. And i think Unknowns way of handling this day has felt the towniest. Others have only been making cases made to convince others to lynch specific people while unknown has actually tried to have a conversation with people and evaluating them. Their way of swapping slowly from thinking i was town to re-isoing and finding things they disliked to still suspecting others felt VERY real to me. Also maybe im stupid but im buying the stuff about them not knowing about scum's day-chat and from feeling unknown out from reading their posts, i don't think they're a player to try to clear themselves from something that stupid. So im locking in them as town too.

So for me the path from here is pretty easy. just lynch fitz/IAI, and be done with it. But i know im a suspect so it isn't that easy.

Ok, so the biggest reason (from what i've precieved) to why IAI says im scum is that "Alisae wouldn't have made the fakeclaim if the partner is in the back-then-suspects". This is terrible logic. Scum KNOWS people evaluate their play after they die, so saying that Alisae and her partner didn't even think about how his claim would look after the flip is just beyond bad. Since scum would know for sure this logic would be taken up, if not by themselves (if you're scum) it will be taken up by the town (if someone else is the last scum). Right now im leaning SLIGHTLY more towards fitz, simply because you have focused so little on preparing the second mislynch after me if you're scum, and you're gonna look pretty bad when i flip town. This is wifom too of course and you could totally be scum doing this, but the way you swapped your second suspect in the span of 1 page felt like a move that scum perhaps wouldn't make if they're focused on getting me lynched.

But regardless, if im scum, and Frogg is harddefending me for the rest of the game, WHY would you fakeclaim a red on FROGG OF ALL PEOPLE that will lead you straight to the win. That no1 has taken this up yet is weirding me out.

So yeah, Lowell town, unknown town, 1 of fitz and IAI scum, leaning fitz.

@Lowell come and read this part if you're still thinking along the lines unknown just laid out. Because to clear those 2 based on that seems ludicris. you don't think scum would think about what Ali's actions would look after she flipped scum?

[Terata]

Terata, can you explain to me why IAI is your pick over Havingfitz in more detail? Otherwise it looks like you are trying to vote him to make him vote me in order to survive (because Town does that too)

My hands are freezing and I'm slow messaging on my phone. I'll be home soon.

you home ?

[Terata]

Prod dodge. I feel like Lowell gotta get his head out of his ass for us to win this. im gonna spend sun/mon evening trying to help him.

[Terata]

I'm never gonna vote Lowell this game, ever. The reason i caught sheep was because i thought Lowell felt town and i went looking for scum on that Wagon and sheep was the least towny one. I just don't ever see things playing out like they did if Lowell's scum.

Sorry I don't buy this. At the point you vote Sheep, EIGHT of the TWELVE people not named Lowell voted Lowell at some point in this game. So either:

1) You're town reading abilities are so strong that you are in the top third of the class or
2) You're scum that knew Lowell was town and didn't want to join a partner on his wagon, so threw a vanity vote at your partner in hopes for town cred later (for staying off Lowell and if Sheep flipped, being on him), and disappeared when his wagon took off.

I know which one I think is more likely.

PS - you're buddying "I'm never gonna vote Lowell this game, ever" after it is established that nobody else is interested in voting him/aka he's not a viable wagon is noted.

And i think Unknowns way of handling this day has felt the towniest. Others have only been making cases made to convince others to lynch specific people while unknown has actually tried to have a conversation with people and evaluating them.

Get out of here that the key to this day is interactions among living players. The key to this game is Day 1 and Day 2, that is where the evidence is. Beyond that, there isn't much, other than why the heck did Alisea pull a 1 for 1 gambit with only 1 remaining teammate.

So yes, I am going to go back to the evidence from Day 1 to Day 2, to see how people interacted with Sheep and Penguin/Alisea, and vice versa. Outside of your half hearted vote to start a wagon on sheep, you did ZERO towny stuff D1 and D2. None, notta. But you sure scummed it up in hindsight. The clues are there, if people just look at it.

Ok, so the biggest reason (from what i've precieved) to why IAI says im scum is that "Alisae wouldn't have made the fakeclaim if the partner is in the back-then-suspects". This is terrible logic. Scum KNOWS people evaluate their play after they die, so saying that Alisae and her partner didn't even think about how his claim would look after the flip is just beyond bad. Since scum would know for sure this logic would be taken up, if not by themselves (if you're scum) it will be taken up by the town (if someone else is the last scum). Right now im leaning SLIGHTLY more towards fitz, simply because you have focused so little on preparing the second mislynch after me if you're scum, and you're gonna look pretty bad when i flip town. This is wifom too of course and you could totally be scum doing this, but the way you swapped your second suspect in the span of 1 page felt like a move that scum perhaps wouldn't make if they're focused on getting me lynched.

Did you even read my posts? I put a whole case with every scummy post you made D1 and D2. And guess what, there is A LOT!

Did you also read that the Alisea gambit didn't point to you, but to you, Unknown, and Lowell. Lowell though, when looking at interactions with scum, comes out looking nearly confirmed town. Unknown/Lil, had just as many good posts as bad. In one post Unknown pushed both Sheep and Penguin, and only Sheep and Penguin. How often does scum do this....not very often.

You never pushed them. Outside of that vote, which you then disappeared from, you did nothing. Even when you put Sheep in your scummy pile, you then defended him saying "he's trying"

WHAT DOES IT MEAN WHEN A SCUM READ OF YOURS IS TRYING???

Because if that isn't defense of a scummate you are leaning scum read on, then I don't what it is.

Ofc i didn't look at EVERYONE who had voted Lowell throughout the day, I looked at the people ATM at the top wagon who i thought was town. And you acting like the first case is what i did is either brainless or agenda-y. And how you're setting it up to seem like it's either this made up narrative OR im a wolf is making me lean towards the latter. PS. you saying i made up the Lowell town read TODAY to buddy him is among the most constructed things i've heard yet, with how i caught scum d1 BY townreading him and finding scum on his freaking wagon. How was it ever unclear i was never voting Lowell today even before i said that. wtf.

You acting like how people acts recently doesn't matter when that's the only time you've been in the game is so disingenious and completely false. The last days is where both towns and scum get on edge and prove themselves one way or the other. Like i think you're doing right now as scum. And again, assuming i would even bus in that situation (which is stupid in itself), WHY would i make a HALF-HEARTED vote on my partner when i could get so much more credit just making up some reasoning why he's scum. Makes no sense.

And i was one of the driving solving forces d1, for you to have found NONE of my stuff towny d1 as town is just very unlikely.

And of course you're completely ignoring my point on Alisae to again twist it around and start casing me. AIA isn't looking for answers or trying to get answers out of anyone, he already got all the answers he needs and twists everything to fit that fact. I truly believe (and deeply hope) this isn't how a town acts towards the end of the game.

VOTE: I Am Innocent

[Terata]

I said that my vote was on Terata, but didn't vote to avoid hammer. It also does nothing IMO.

Terata said they'd discuss with me but hasn't done that much (they called to me but disappeared afterwards)

Rn I'd vote you too but that has less momentum and so I've moved on to my other current choice.

If you asked that question then you can't be reading well.

i don't have time all days. i was around when i asked for you but you had to sleep.

Anyway, ill be around tomorrow, and since you're suspecting me i think it's more productive you asking me questions than me trying to convince you im town without knowing why you think i'm scum. So ask away

[Terata]

well this kinda sucks. Because even if i somehow convinced Unknown to change their mind, Lowell's lynch order is even worse if im right. In f3, the town out of Fitz/IAI should always try to get the second one lynched, of course don't completely ignore unknown but im pretty sure im right. Lowell will pretty much always die in the night with how things have played out. @Unknown, try to look through all IAI's and Fitz's comments on me again when you know im town and see who was oppurtunistic in a scummy way and if IAI believed everything he was saying.

Fitz, the days with the claim and the coming day was ended way too fast, and in times where i was working/sleeping, so that's why i didn't have time to vote or push harder in time that we should've lynched Ali instead of Frogg that day.

I don't really feel like fighting when everything i've said that makes sense is being either ignored or twisted around to mean something else and that i the pretty much confirmed town in Lowell is convinced by an argument that scum

created

in the first place and are able to take up any time in their favour (with ali's claim "pointing towards everyone that's not fitz/IAI").

Insanely annoying day

[Terata]

i like the thought of Frogg screaming from the dead about wtf you are doing. lol.

[Terata]

actually, i wouldn't be suprised if scum left alive Lowell because he's been tunneling unknown. And it's gonna create a lot of confusion. If that happens, just don't start tinfoiling Lowell. And solve who's the scum between unknown the the last one. I don't think it's gonna happen but it's a possibility.

[Terata]

I would 100% lynch fitz with you.

[Terata]

VOTE: havingfitz

[Terata]

i can't even describe how good it would feel to see Lowell follow this and fitz flipping scum. On top of winning i can say i managed to win even though going through being tunneled the hardest in history by a villager.

But tbh i don't really look forward to a yelling contest eod with IAI if fitz flipped town. But better than me getting lynched lol.

[Terata]

Fitz flip really makes sense from a scum perspective just as you say. Lowell has already expressed how his lynch order is you --> me. So voting IAI isn't as safe as voting me, where he knows he has more backup. And in the f3 he can just go on about how IAI is outted for the push on me

[Terata]

And voting you isn't good either, because the only 2 that have expressed any want in voting you is Lowell. So me is the logical choice is scum. I gotta look back at his townread of me and how that changed

[Terata]

And voting you isn't good either, because the only 2 that have expressed any want in voting you is Lowell. So me is the logical choice is scum. I gotta look back at his townread of me and how that changed

is the logical choice if scum*

[Terata]

OK...so other games and weekend RL has had me a bit distracted from this game fince Alisae accused Frogger. It's kind of been on auto-pilot for me since Alisae's fake result.

For my part I will say this. If there is a 1v1 situation that early in the game pitting a claimed PR against a VT...I'm going to opt for believing the claim. Even if the claim was a lie (as it turned out to be)...town was still setting themselves up to be rid of the 2nd mafia member the following day and still in possession of two chances to get the last mafia member. Those are not bad odds. I will say in hindsight it might have been better to let D3 last a little longer and grill Alisae about their claim but in my case at least...I can be a bit impatient when my mind is made up.


with regards to my current reads:

Lowell - Lowell was my alternative to Sheep D1. I didn't care for Sheep but that wagon was going nowhere so I swapped to Lowell in part for OMGUS retaliation. Looking back I am doubtful that Sheep would bus Lowell so adamently D1, up to L-2 a few times, without trying to move things elsewhere. Of my four remaining reads Lowell is probably the one I'm most confident is town based on VCA and counter wagon to Sheep.

Terata is a bit of an enigma in my mind this game. Seems like she has had a few stretches where she has been absent. Also, she hasn't made a vote since D1 so VCA is not that telling on her. She did initiate the final wagon on Sheep D1...when she could have easily hopped on tbd!me, town!Wheme or tbd!Lowell. So on what little VCA that does apply to her she appears to be a town lean.

That leaves me with IAI and Unknown.

IAI replaced ECMitchell who was focused for the bulk of D1 and all D2 on getting rid of Wheme. ECM never voted otes on Alisae or Sheep. Alisae however on D2 did vote ECM with conviction (up to L-1). Not sure if this is a pass for ECM as Alisae was sheeping Frogger heavily during the game and Frogger had just voted ECM prior to Alisae's vote. But it looks better than if Alisae had totally ignored ECM.

Unknown...replaced LUV mid-D1. Luv had done some light voting (bussing?) on Sheep D1. Unknown entered the game and chose to vote me (a negative fmpov) and hammered Sheep. Hammering scum is good. Hammering scum when it is a foregone conclusion scum is going to be lynched...not as good. But at least not bad. D2..Unknown put the Chaos mislynch wagon at L-2 two posts before Froger hammered. D3...Unknown chose to ignore Alisae's claim and vote Alisae. D4 Unknown voted Alisae. Then opens up D5 with a vote/unvote on me.

WRT the D3 Frogger and D4 Alisae lynches...I'm of the opinion that scum would try to avoid supporting the Frogger lynch (knowing it would be a mislynch) and would support the auto-lynch of Alisae D4. Unknown fits this belief the strongest (voted Alisae both D3&4). Followed by IAI (absent D3...voted Alisae D4) and Terata (no votes either day).

tl:dr;

I think Unknown looks the worst from a VCA standpoint followed by IAI, Terata and then Lowell.

I still want to look over Sheep and Alisae's ISOs, along with the living, and see if anything jumps out at me.

If I was going to vote now it would be on Unknown.

Penguin Power/Alisae ISO:

345 - Strong to weak trs on Naomi (fitz), LUV (Unknown) and Terata. Strong to weak nulls on ECM (IAI) and Lowell. Luv is "probs town." Terata a "feels," Lowell only 3 posts.
540 - LUV (IAI) gets promoted to a townread next to Frogger and Naomi (fitz).

---Alisae replace in-----

879 - Explains to Frogger how Chaos could use a Terata town flip to his advantage.

i.e. if Terata is town..Chaos would still warrant suspicion. (IMO this post supports a town!Terata read).

883 - Votes Lowell while shading Gerryoat.
897 - Says post 621 makes him feel like ECM is a mislynch. (

minus points to ECM/IAI slot

)
1025 - Says he wants Lowell (though at this point he is voting gerryoat).
1031 - discredits Gerroat and soft defends Sheep.
1148 - Scumreads are gerryoat, chaos, sheep, gerryoat and Lowell.
1155 - Calls Lowell is second strongest scumread.

----End of D1----

1545 - Says the only people he is comfortable calling town are Frogger, AJ, Terata and Lowell. (

I find it unlikley Alisae wouldn't include one partner in his townreads...but Terata and Lowell are looking town after ISOing flipped scums

)
1563 - Votes ECM (L-3). Wagon grows to L-1 twice without Alisae even flinching. (

plus points to ECM/IAI slot

)
1565 - Gives ECM crap for calling Terata scum.
1571 - Says no way Terata is scum...unless Lowell were to somehow flip scum.
1575 - More defense of Terata against ECM suspicions.
1626 - Agrees w/ Wheme that Lowell is most likely town due to Sheep being lynched.

NAI after the D1 counterwagons.

1747 - Unvotes ECM to give replacement (IAI) a chance.
1755 - Agrees that Unknown post 1755 is bad but that it doesn't change his townread on him. (

minus points to Unknown slot

)

----End of D2----

1842 - Says Frogger's scumbuddy is either unknown or gerryoat.
1912, 1968 - Giving game 101 to Unknown.

----End of D3----

Several D4 posts shading IAI slot. wifomwifomwifom

Sheep ISO:

No mention worth mentioning of Alisae.
10 - Says avoiding LUV due to inactivity.

Seems like an odd place to comment about another players inactivity only on post 10 of the game.

107 - Defends LUV against Hawk. Suspects Lowell reaction to some slip more than LUVs.

(i.e. supporting LUV).

Dislikes Lowell/Frogger/..states lynch preferences are Lowell-Hawk-Chaos-Frogger. More LUV defense near bottom of post. (

minus points to LUV/Unknown slot

)
168/171 - Some exchange with Terata...feels like Terata is town.
223 - Votes Hawk but adds the willingness to vote Lowell. (

plus points to Lowell

)
1081 - Lynch preference for three names provided by Frogger, in order: Lowell, Chaos, Penguin (Alisae). (

plus points to Lowell

)
1093 - Fine lynching Hawk or Lowell today.

(Voting Hawk at this point)

1183 - Votes Lowell (2nd player on the wagon). Alternative wagons include: Wheme w/4 votes (opposed to), havingfitz w/2 votes (Naomi was strong townread) and Alisae w/1 vote. (

plus points to Lowell

)
1192 - Sheep chooses to like Fitz.

This is shortly after I have moved off the Sheep wagon to vote Lowell.

1276 - Tells Unknown that if post count matters...he (Sheep) would be fine with voting Lowell, Chaos and Hawk first. (

plus points to Lowell...minus points to Unknown

)
1283 - Liking the momentum the Lowell wagon has. (

plus points to Lowell

)
1293 - Tells Wheme if Lowell flips scum to use the Rolestopper ability on him.

With a 3rd mafia in the game and Sheep's powers being even-night vs Wheme's odd-night Rolestop ability...I think this statement is NAI towards Lowell.

----End of D1----

I think these scum ISO's do more good for Terata and Lowell and are a bit damning towards the Unknown and IAI slots.

I'll do Unknown and IAI slot ISOs next.

Terata had zero reason to START a counterwagon to Lowell on her scumbuddy.

Terata is nearly conftown in my eyes

AKA Alisea, it's okay to 1 vs 1 against Frogger cause I can win it...

Frogger was talking about Terata starting the Sheep wagon back up when Lowell was at L-2.

Terata had zero reason to START a counterwagon to Lowell on her scumbuddy.

Terata is nearly conftown in my eyes

AKA Alisea, it's okay to 1 vs 1 against Frogger cause I can win it...

Frogger was talking about Terata starting the Sheep wagon back up when Lowell was at L-2.

No I get it. But my theory is that Alisea's 1 for 1 trade indicates to me that the 3rd scum must be someone that could escape two mislynches after alisea was lynched. When the most townie person in the game D2 says "Terata is nearly conftown" that falls right in line with the type of player that would be okay with Alisea's 1 for 1 trade.

If Terata is scum that would make Lowell town

. Why would Terata start a scum wagon on Sheep when she just could have supported the L-2 Lowell wagon or lurk?

Unless Tereta had been townreading Lowell hard and could not realistically vote him. I don't recall the vote context at that time. I think that wagon bought her enough towncred to avoid lynches. Just not sure why gerryoat was the nk over her or Lowell (who both look good as town at a minimum for vca).

Also, where did Terata lead a counter train on you? How close were you to dying?

1.) I don't remember her leading that train at all.

2.) if you were about to be lynched, I could see it as distancing if she thought that you were a guaranteed lynch.

Why would Terata start a scum wagon on Sheep when she just could have supported

the L-2 Lowell wagon

or lurk?

1) Not sure how much leading she did but she got the ball rolling.

2) possibly...

Lowell....what do you think of the Terata case?

It's like you can't build your own opinion without someone else's help. What do YOU think about it?

I'm actually in the middle of a Terata ISO // IAI case review this very moment.

Who do you suspect unknown?
Why aren't you voting anyone?

I ISO'D you and didn't see where you stood. So Lowell and IAI are your town leans?

Because you asked me why I wasn't voting, but you aren't either.

I was curious why you weren't. It wasn't an indictment of you. I don't need to ask why I'm not voting as I know why.

OK...I know when I first joined the game I had Sheep and Terata as my early suspects. Don't really recall why though.

My observation of the lone saving grace for Terata, i.e. the Sheep wagon, is - I agree that it could very easily have been a harmless vote on one of the most popular D1 suspects with no real hope of it leading to a lynch.

Lowell was not an option because Terata had been town reading him all day. And the only other real option was my wagon with 2 votes on it and I had been (Naomi that is) a town read for terata as well. So the only wagon that made any sense for Terata to move to (off the PR wagon she had for some reasons continued to support) was Sheep. And that vote looked safe with Lowell at L-2.

I also found Terata's Post 1591 interesting in that it bestowed towncred on everyone on the Sheep wagon (so that's Terata and Alisae to name two) while adding the caveat that Unknown's hammer did not get "big points."

Left Alisae out of ISO results on Sheep at bottom of Post 1691.

Says will most likely vote ECM on D2 but never actually does.
Casts suspicions D2 towards Chaos in Post 1706 but never actually votes Chaos....though the Chaos wagon takes off immediately after this post with subsequent votes by Lowell and Wheme.

I don't like that Terata basically diasappeared after D1. No votes placed until the recent vote on IAI.

D3 Terata is adament that Frog is not getting lynched today. Despite the major event of the day on D3 (Ali's claim on Frogger), Terata manages to keep out of any actual commitment towards one side or the other. So doesn't do anything to implicate Ali (aka scum) or Frogger (who scum knew was town). So best of both worlds.

Then no posts at all D4 (NAI IMO due to only lasting a little over an hour) and a day 5 declaration of "why am I alive." Comments of which type I always raise an eyebrow to.

So yeah...

VOTE: Terata

ok so it looks pretty bad. He both had me as an initial townread, then did some isoing and came out with that me and lowell looked better and unknown and IAI looked worse. And he defended me again with regards to my sheep vote and lack of reasoning as scum.

The Progression after that was basically....nothing. His biggest analysis when it came to me was "If Terata is scum that makes Lowell town". NO SHIT, LOL. The only thing he did was asking others what they thought of the case on me, and what unknown's suspects were and what they were gonna vote etc. All the things needed to make an optimal vote as far as easy lynches go. And when everyone has put their opinions on the table, THEN he comes up with the long post starting up with "i DID have sheep and terata as scum from the start" to justify him swapping back to me again. And he also swaps his opinion of my sheep vote. Before it looked good for me and he said it like "Why would Terata start a scum wagon on Sheep when she just could have supported the L-2 Lowell wagon or lurk?" earlier but now it's instead "it's the only wagon that made sense for Terata as scum" when he wants to call me scum.

So yeah, i definetly agree with you his swap on me looked pretty terrible, unknown

[Terata]

actually, i wouldn't be suprised if scum left alive Lowell because he's been tunneling unknown. And it's gonna create a lot of confusion. If that happens, just don't start tinfoiling Lowell. And solve who's the scum between unknown the the last one. I don't think it's gonna happen but it's a possibility.

When was I tunnelling Unknown, other than today?

And voting you isn't good either, because the only 2 that have expressed any want in voting you is Lowell. So me is the logical choice is scum. I gotta look back at his townread of me and how that changed

I don't know what this means, or who you are talking about.

Terata is mad whiteknighting me right now.

Explain the fitz case to me again? If I'm so certain to die if I'm wrong, as you say, I might as well get this right.

What matter is what you're gonna tunnel tomorrow if you're alive, and since you're tunneling unknown today it would make sense for scum to think you would often vote unknown in f3.

Why wouldn't i whiteknight you when talking about f3 scenario's you would be in when i think you're pretty much lock town?

I did just explain why his actions would make sense as scum today. He's also layed low for big parts of the game, including today, except when laying out cases on unknown in the start of the day, which looked more agenda-y than not. But the biggest reason is that i don't think you or unknown are scum, so it has to be one of fitz/IAI

[Terata]

Look at the Terata posts above. He can taste getting out of being lynched today.

Unknown....you are terrible. If you are town (as I'm leaning) I will keep my fingers crossed that I don't wind up in a game with you again anytime soon. You're almost policy lynch bad.

Havingfitz was town-reading Terata all day and only changes his mind at the last minute.

This is a misrep. The only person I've been reading town all day is Lowell. You need to improve your reading comprehension. I started the day calling Terata an enigma and saying that vca looked good for him but a closer look at the D1 voting

(which I outline in my post voting for Terata)

dispels the towncred Terata got for voting Sheep.

FFS you are awful unknown.

Lowell...Terata's eager jump to my wagon is strictly self preservation from scum.

p.edit...of course you agree with unknown. Your game is on the line.

EXACTLY. You came to all these "conclusions" when everyone had made up their mind in suspecting me and i was the optimal mislynch. Why didn't you lay out any of your thoughts during all IAI's attacking today? you had to question everyone first to make sure i was the correct choice. Then fitting a reasoning to the vote is easy peasy.

[Terata]

And when i've said all day that i thought the scum is between you and IAI, why wouldn't i take this opportunity to lynch you instead of ME when you're in my PoE anyway? To put it like it only makes sense from a scum PoV is agenda-y and you know it

[Terata]

and btw, stop insulting people. It's not gonna help you as either alignment and is simply rude.

[Terata]

Yeah, and the caveat you did your pre-work for never came up again until everything was set-up in a sitaution where it would be perfect for you to swap your opinion of me as scum. It doesn't really matter what caveats you laid since your main point of your comment was still to call me towny back then, and the other part didn't come until it was convinient.

And why wouldn't it be reasonable to not give cred to unknown when the wagons had already swung at that point and people on lowell's wagon had swapped and it was clear sheep was getting lynched. While Alisae was on the wagon earlier when it wasn't sure if Lowell or Sheep was the one who was gonna get lynched. The circumstances around these things are key.

p.s i don't see where (unless they did it long ago??). And no i won't "stfu". could you stop insulting? i think you're scum but that doesn't mean i dislike you as a person

[Terata]

I don't like an IAI vote. Not today anyways.

Terata would you vote Fitz? The only thing is though that I doubt Lowell could be convinced either way but I'm getting second thoughts.

Could you explain

this

?

I don't like an IAI vote. Not today anyways.

Terata would you vote Fitz? The only thing is though that I doubt Lowell could be convinced either way but I'm getting second thoughts.

Could you explain

this

?

Nice catch....why would he assume there would be a chance to vote IAI tomorrow if I'm scum?

im gonna let unknown answer this themselves. But this "catch" is pretty meh.

[Terata]

Trying to figure out where everyone is right now. Unknown probes fitz a little

Havingfitz, what makes you suspect me less than Terata?

Then fitz says something about unknown just seeming town to him (not quoted here). Unknown responds...

Glad that feeling is mutual.

...in agreement, but then...

Lol I forgot how to vote.

VOTE: Havingfitz

... he follows terata's (the guy unknown and fitz agreed they suspected more than each other) suggestion to vote fitz a few posts later. "Sometimes players change their minds!" arguments notwithstanding, this looks opportunistic.

What would unknown gain on this "opportunistic" change Lowell? unknown could've just taken the easy mislynch on me with all the pressure on me. That's why FITZ's change can be seen as opportunistic, while unknown has nothing to gain, and only makes it harder for themselves to get the mislynch by changing their mind.

[Terata]

But it still looks a little reverse-engineered--

I don't recall terata being that strong on me being town until after sheep's flip.

Quotes below all before Sheep flip....

@Fro99, you don't need to defend my honor. But seriously thanks for defending my honor.

VOTE: sheep

Is the slip real? Who knows? Am I going to laugh if the sheep flips scum? You bet!

i actually liked this reaction much much more. Pretty towny imo

Towns:

Frogg

Lowell
gerry

i actually liked Lowell's tone in the vote. I think saying "who knows" and still vote a slip for pressure is a completely valid process to go through as town, and the way he said it looked towny to me.

Null:

Lowell
gerry
WhemeStar
Sheep

Towns:

Frogg- solving, mindmeld, pressuring

Lil Uzi Vert- Believable towny reasoning for early thoughts about suspicion
Naomi- emotional towny outlash, ok interactions

AJ- Towny confidence+compactness in his reads.

PenguinPower- Does his own thing in a confident way, though this is null to town, since it could be NAI if it's his personality

Null:-

Lowell (ill be able to place him after i ISO)
gerry- isn't trying

Scum

Sheep- is trying but not being towny

i just iso'd Lowell. First off, i don't think the "slip" is ever a thing. Someone just doesn't slip on that kind of level to call someone right when they called them scum. Slips that actually works is of a different kind, where the mindset of the person just doesn't line up with a town mindset but it does as a scum mindset. What he did doesn't make sense as either.
Second, i think towards the second half of his posting, he's felt very free-flowey and real to me. So my gut says town there even though i think his accusation about "derailment of sheep wagon" vs Chaos is pretty bullshit. I think it's a thought that a town can get if they have preconvinced thoughts about whether a wagon is good/bad.

i think he's likely town

Decently strong towns:

AJ- Towny confidence+compactness in his reads.

Lowell-Free-flowey and sounds like he's solving the times he's been here. He gives real-sounding thoughts that doesn't seem like a try to get townread to me.
gerry- isn't trying

^ There may be more. This is a good start as to why you were not an option over the voteless Sheep wagon.

Why wouldn't i just lurk though like you suggested yourself?

[Terata]

Why wouldn't i just lurk though like you suggested yourself?

At least with a lone vote on a partner you give the illusion of doing something...unfortunately for you the Lowell wagon disappeared and Sheep got lynched.

You got the lurking part down the next 2 days.

why do you guys keep saying that obviously i didn't expect any follow-up to come when the most outspoken most village-read player in the game (frogg) had been scum-reading/pushing sheep? i'd get if sheep was under-the-radar not discussed much and scum, but he was literally a main suspect of Frogg who had lots of support.

[Terata]

Unknown, why don't you think IAI is scum

[Terata]

"My compromise is unknown"

well at least my compromise lynch is KNOWN. therefore we should do mine. GOTTEM

[Terata]

Why though? if you think fitz is more likely, why not wait to see what Lowell does first? You can't do this and after the flip say you did everything you could.

[Terata]

well, i think i played decent and my reads were good. gl in f3 unknown,