Mini Normal 1879 Bringer Mafia II [Game Over]

[ECMitchell]

Hi Everyone,

I'm glad to see this game got shunted right out of the RVS. I've read through all pages up until this point, and I do have some general reads. First, I want to say that I deliberately skipped reading Naomi's introduction post the moment I realized what it was. No offense, Naomi, but if you start all of your games that way, I'd very quickly want to avoid playing with you. It's an excuse in advance of scummy behavior; despite it likely being honest, the fact is, if your behavior is scummy regardless of alignment, you're still a detriment to town. Rather than attempting to safeguard your defensiveness from the start—hoping it serves to keep you in the game longer—I recommend learning to evolve your play style so as to not appear scummy, regardless of alignment. The "Green" vs. "Red" clarification is helpful, though, so thank you for that.

Fro99er, you certainly have an abrasive play style. Not something I appreciate, but likely something I can get use to. Voiding your posts of connotations, I generally agree with your sentiments, up until now at least. You are parroting your defense of comparing Cooperative Sheep to Axel from another game, however, which is coming across as slightly desperate. Despite some pressure coming off of Cooperative Sheep, you still seem very committed to going after them. To confirm, would you like to see Cooperative Sheep lynched today?

Cooperative Sheep has handled the initial pressure

very

scrupulously, and at the moment I wouldn't have any issue going through with a D1 lynch on them. Terata's responses throughout have also rubbed me the wrong way, particularly how he appearingly defended Cooperative Sheep in saying, "It's likely you just handle your defense awkwardly, regardless of alignment." Shortly after, though, he joined in on the pressure on Cooperative Sheep, flat-out calling him scum. To me it appears he was attempting to play both sides in the event Cooperative Sheep might have actually been lynched so quickly—or in the event everyone backed off and he could be seen as one who wasn't as aggressive in an uncertain lynch.

Gerryoat's posts up until now have been primarily filler.

I hardclaim town.

Was hoping to flip scum but alas, we are where we are

R u calling me maf

someone else vote so i can activate my 1 shot triple vote

I hardclaimed town. You can't be suspect of me

At least me saying something was a slip got this game moving out of RVS. lmao

My role is powerful btw. So I don't get lynched today

While true that your call-out on Cooperative Sheep got things rolling, you really haven't contributed anything at all yet, despite the game clearly exiting the RVS. Quite a bit of discussion has occurred in the past several pages. Do you have any reads or opinions at this point in the game? I am curious to know your thoughts.

Good luck, and have fun everyone.

[Fro99er]

Do frogs and sheeps not get along in the animal kingdom

I'm at the top of the food chain.

We eat sheep for breakfast.

[Terata]

Frog being dismissive and non-caring and then having this quick turn. I can't tell if it feels forced or not since i dont know the guy

[Fro99er]

you really haven't contributed anything at all yet

par for the course with Gerry

[Fro99er]

Cooperative Sheep has handled the initial pressure very scrupulously, and at the moment I wouldn't have any issue going through with a D1 lynch on them. Terata's responses throughout have also rubbed me the wrong way, particularly how he appearingly defended Cooperative Sheep in saying, "It's likely you just handle your defense awkwardly, regardless of alignment." Shortly after, though, he joined in on the pressure on Cooperative Sheep, flat-out calling him scum. To me it appears he was attempting to play both sides in the event Cooperative Sheep might have actually been lynched so quickly—or in the event everyone backed off and he could be seen as one who wasn't as aggressive in an uncertain lynch.

I think Terata was just adapting their worldview of the game to Sheep's continued play.

I don't really see her joining in on sheep is scum as scum motivated herself. Terata is trying to accurately assess whether sheep would awkwardly defend himself, but then from sheep's later play decided something else that wasn't a defense is scummy. It's certainly possible to think someone awkwardly defending themselves and not be sure if that person would do that as town or scum but then see something that has nothing to do with defense and find it scummy

[Fro99er]

Fro99er, you certainly have an abrasive play style.

I really don't, unless people like sheep piss me off.

[Terata]

@ECmich

Do you not think i believe that initial read on Sheep about playstyle? If i do believe it, why wouldn't i out that info i believe in to help you guys in reading him?

With regards to my swap on Sheep, fine if you believe swapping reads is a viable tell, even if i think it's the complete opposite that's true. Scum tries super hard to make their progressions slow and well recieved. But thats ur read so eh

[Fro99er]

To confirm, would you like to see Cooperative Sheep lynched today?

Is this a real question?

[ECMitchell]

you really haven't contributed anything at all yet

par for the course with Gerry

That's too bad. Hopefully that changes.

Cooperative Sheep has handled the initial pressure very scrupulously, and at the moment I wouldn't have any issue going through with a D1 lynch on them. Terata's responses throughout have also rubbed me the wrong way, particularly how he appearingly defended Cooperative Sheep in saying, "It's likely you just handle your defense awkwardly, regardless of alignment." Shortly after, though, he joined in on the pressure on Cooperative Sheep, flat-out calling him scum. To me it appears he was attempting to play both sides in the event Cooperative Sheep might have actually been lynched so quickly—or in the event everyone backed off and he could be seen as one who wasn't as aggressive in an uncertain lynch.

I think Terata was just adapting their worldview of the game to Sheep's continued play.

I don't really see her joining in on sheep is scum as scum motivated herself. Terata is trying to accurately assess whether sheep would awkwardly defend himself, but then from sheep's later play decided something else that wasn't a defense is scummy. It's certainly possible to think someone awkwardly defending themselves and not be sure if that person would do that as town or scum but then see something that has nothing to do with defense and find it scummy

I agree it could be a natural progression. I'm not saying Terata is necessarily scum, but the behavior was interesting to me. If Terata believed Sheep is probably just awkward, it was a rather quick reverse in joining the bandwagon.

Fro99er, you certainly have an abrasive play style.

I really don't, unless people like sheep piss me off.

If it only took that much to piss you off, I'd say it's inherent to your play style. I'm not making a real point here, or anything—just something for you to consider.

@ECmich

Do you not think i believe that initial read on Sheep about playstyle? If i do believe it, why wouldn't i out that info i believe in to help you guys in reading him?

With regards to my swap on Sheep, fine if you believe swapping reads is a viable tell, even if i think it's the complete opposite that's true. Scum tries super hard to make their progressions slow and well recieved. But thats ur read so eh

This early in the game, I'm taking most everything at face-value. So, sure, I think you believe your initial read on Sheep's play style. But what's a bit weird to me is you're saying, "Why wouldn't I share these thoughts, because it will help your own reads?" But you admittedly don't know these players and deliberately make it known by saying, "I don't know how they play, but..." You did the same with Fro99er here:

Frog being dismissive and non-caring and then having this quick turn. I can't tell if it feels forced or not since i dont know the guy

If you don't know their play style, it's kind of irrelevant to any point you're making about their play style. I don't know anyone's play styles here, so I'm just commenting on what I see as tells. If others are familiar with their play styles, they can attribute their behaviors to such. But repeatedly seeing comments from you on others, followed with the disclaimer that you might not really know them, appears a bit like fluff to me.

To confirm, would you like to see Cooperative Sheep lynched today?

Is this a real question?

It's certainly not a fake question. Here's another, then: Would you prefer to lynch Cooperative Sheep ASAP or let D1 drag on a bit longer to facilitate more discussion?

[Cooperative Sheep]

Probably scum for not even attempting to understand my play. Just shouting MISREP and YOU DIDNT READ

So you agree it's scummy not to try to understand someone?

[Fro99er]

If Terata believed Sheep is probably just awkward, it was a rather quick reverse in joining the bandwagon.

No.

Unless I'm misunderstanding, Terata said she believes sheep's DEFENSE is awkward. Not that sheep is awkward.

I see no issue with a quick reversal on her opinion of him if it's something that isn't related to sheep's defense.

[Fro99er]

He, not she...sorry Terata

[Fro99er]

Probably scum for not even attempting to understand my play. Just shouting MISREP and YOU DIDNT READ

So you agree it's scummy not to try to understand someone?

I understand exactly what you're doing.

You continue to push the misrep and lie angle, when I pointed out I simply misread. Misreading is different from intentionally misrepping or lying.

You need to make a case on me that doesn't involve me not reading, thinking I misrepped, or thinking I lied.

[Aj The Epic]

ECMitchell, Tarata can I interest you in this wonderful investment called 'avatars'? They're never out of style.

@Lowell - So you would have been okay with the pressure on WhemeStar if you'd thought of it before me? Is that a habit that will carry through the game? Feels like it would make you hard to cooperate with if town.

Sadly Lil Uzi Vert is too bad to unvote.

Have you played with LuV before? Asking for a friend.

Can I ask if there's any reason you said that? Or if its just you're curiosity as why my vote is on him

Freedom of speech dictates you can ask whatever you want.

The reason is two-fold. First, my understanding of RVS is standard etiquette is to help push wagons early for reactions. This is how you get out of RVS, someone does something funny-looking (i.e. what sheep did). Secondly, specific to Uzi, he's generally lynchbait so I was interested if you knew this coming in. Pushing Uzi right from the start is a really easy scum read and a super easy way to look productive on someone who doesn't necessarily reflect pressure well.

Okay so.. Let me ask you a simple question; Was your post in question a joke or other wise non-serious post that is NAI?

It was a serious question asked in a mocking way, if he hadn't answered it would have been very serious - I leave it to you to classify that in your own joke range.

Btw Sheep, if I for example Whiteknighted you as scum, what would i gain in then instantly swapping you to a scum lean a bit later after i resisted the wagon? doesn't that kinda negate the pocketing the whiteknighting as scum could've possibly gained?

You swapped me after the pressure on me was relieved, which makes sense in a scum concept of hoping the lynch goes through and you look good for being 'right' and shifting me to a lynch option for later also plays to that potential scum play.

No.

I don't play this "answer my questions game." If you think that makes me scum for it IDGAF. I don't sit here and do what people tell me to do. That's not how I play so get off your damn high horse with this "I'd like you to do this" bullcrap.

You've already shown me you'll give absurd logic with that avatar retort. I'm not going to go around in circles with you. It helps nobody.

Could you at least address the point where I called you a misrepper/liar for how you changed up what Lowell said and then attacked me over my reaction to something that wasn't said?

Because I'd love to talk about that.

Vote: Frogger

Okay, my current scumreads don't exactly include you but this jump at the end is fucking atrocious. You go from 'let's talk' to voting frogger, who you claim to want to have a discussion with. You're so incredibly nitpicky especially in latter pages about what frogger said and not about what frogger's DONE. Because you attacking doesn't really solve anything Frogger had pushed for the last couple of pages.

While we're at it, Hawk is scum. He's sidelining as hell waiting for Frogger to push this lynch through for him. Not sure scumpartners but I think Lowell could be a second.

VOTE: Hawk

Frogger, I'm reading Cooperative sheep as scum if Hawk isn't, but this shit looks like heavy flailing. Other than this:

I generally like Naomi's entrance.
I also am okay with Terata.
That said I would tend to expect one scum amongst Terata, Naomi, and Chaos - just due to not having a town read on him and having one on the other two, I'll call it as Chaos.
I agree with people that are not a fan of Uzi's vote, but find it odd that some of these same people aren't citing Lowell.

There's really nothing outside a supposed 'slip' to call scum. And he's also picking up good reads otherwise (lowell/hawk).

[Terata]

@EC
Just because i haven't played with them before, doesn't mean i can't feel out their playstyles and get my mind around things i believe in. If mafia was a complete meta game, it would be pretty boring. I hope you don't play like that

[Fro99er]

Probably scum for not even attempting to understand my play. Just shouting MISREP and YOU DIDNT READ

So you agree it's scummy not to try to understand someone?

These are exactly the type of manipulative questions scum asks.

"Oh you can accuse that of me but don't you agree you are doing the same?" As in ... look how much of a hypocrite this guys is.

Fun fact, town can be hypocrites. Even then, I'm not being hypocritical. I am understanding your play, despite you suggesting I am not.

This guy is literally resorting to:
"Frog doesn't read"
"Frog is hypocritical"
"Frog misreps"
"Frog lies"

as his argument against me.

[Terata]

ofc im not AS comfident as i would be in the read if i had played 5+ games with the people im reading. But feeling playstyles/posting style out and feeling what is NAI and not is what i do. That's all that matters: filtering the NAI stuff

[Terata]

Probably scum for not even attempting to understand my play. Just shouting MISREP and YOU DIDNT READ

So you agree it's scummy not to try to understand someone?

These are exactly the type of manipulative questions scum asks.

"Oh you can accuse that of me but don't you agree you are doing the same?" As in ... look how much of a hypocrite this guys is.

Fun fact, town can be hypocrites. Even then, I'm not being hypocritical. I am understanding your play, despite you suggesting I am not.

This guy is literally resorting to:
"Frog doesn't read"
"Frog is hypocritical"
"Frog misreps"
"Frog lies"

as his argument against me.

agreed it's terrible. But sadly i've seen players who just focused on that stuff even though it's as often done from town

[Fro99er]

@AJ

finally someone slapping some sense into this thread.

I can buy sheep is flailing town, but it all reads far too familiar with what I'm used to from having had this happen to me before. I make an early push to get us out of RVS, then the person I pushed re-pushes against me for not reading, misrepping, and not answering. All too familiar.

Why are you scumreading Lowell?

[Terata]

AJ town from that post alone

[Aj The Epic]

Yeah but you're still not taking my advice and getting a fucking avatar.

Lowell's RVS vote tipped me off that he wasn't interested in either being part of the Whemestar wagon or was afraid of the attention. Then he hops on (what I think is) an easy mislynch. Same sort of style as Hawk.

Tbh if I was a god this scumteam is Whemestar/Hawk/Lowell because of Lowell's actions, but it could just be avoiding attention.

[Terata]

@AJ

IM ON IT SIR. But it's like choosing a name. it's so hard.

[Fro99er]

I do think the WAY lil popped in was slightly awkward tho.
VOTE: Lil Uzi Vert here is a start. Gn

What was awkward about the way I popped in?

If nothing else you were the last one to vote him. Also why acknowledge Naomi and no one else who hadn't posted yet?

@Wheme of the three of us who did you like least? Do you not link early wagons? I think it's getting nice content from Sheep. And generating discussion.

Lil Uzi, I have no problem with them, but its okay to be suspicious of the people who put them at L-2, wouldn't you be suspicious of someone hammering a wagon? Where's the cutoff point on the wagon. I thought it generated good discussion too, froggy got the reactions from people that he wanted.

See Wheme gets it Uzi. Why'd you take us all the way to L-2??

VOTE: LUV

Where/are you that confident that Sheep is scum??? Don't you think L-2 this early is dangerous? I mean I understand pressure but that was playing with a bit of fire there Uzi.

Also to answer your question I interjected because your vote made me pause and contemplate too. So I wanted to engage you.

Actually, I think AJ is right. Also, this post by hawk is gross. Hawk is ok with voting sheep himself, but then when Uzi does it suddenly it's bad to put someone at L-2?

I don't buy that

VOTE: Hawk

Maybe I'm wrong on sheep. But it's such a trash push on me. I can see why he'd think if I intentionally misrepped why I'd be scum. But I didn't. I don't agree with his leap in logic, and I'm still scumreading him for it. But I guess if he really believes his logic then it's not scum motivated. I just really hate implying, with a question, that someone will be uncooperative in the future for something that arguably wasn't uncooperative at all.

[Cooperative Sheep]

You continue to push the misrep and lie angle, when I pointed out I simply misread. Misreading is different from intentionally misrepping or lying.

You need to make a case on me that doesn't involve me not reading, thinking I misrepped, or thinking I lied.

So you agree that you misrepped/misunderstood me?
But your case doesn't change?
Okay.

Vote: Hawk

Would also do Lowell, but I'll sheep AJ for the moment.
I actually think Frogger's defense is bad enough I'm reading it as town - the point being if he doesn't see the hypocrisy, it's not scum hypocrisy whether it exists or not.

Okay, my current scumreads don't exactly include you but this jump at the end is fucking atrocious. You go from 'let's talk' to voting frogger, who you claim to want to have a discussion with. You're so incredibly nitpicky especially in latter pages about what frogger said and not about what frogger's DONE. Because you attacking doesn't really solve anything Frogger had pushed for the last couple of pages.

The points you claim I'm being nitpicky about are the same thing's Frogger's done.
Note in his last post - he isn't admitting to lying or misrepping - but he is admitting to misunderstanding, which is the same thing just depending on whether he is town or scum.
That's the point, and I needed to figure out the hypocrisy to get a read through it, when the slot I'm presented with is resorting to ignoring, rage, and yelling to present their case - I don't know another way to sort through it. If you have suggestions for future games I'd love to hear them..

[Cooperative Sheep]

I can see why he'd think if I intentionally misrepped why I'd be scum.