Mini Normal 1879 Bringer Mafia II [Game Over]

[Hawk]

Next is Wheme because I noticed he had recently claimed which made this higher priority than others besides my vote.

I think hawk jumped on the sheep wagon which was a weak slip, him and others jumped on it which makes me suspect them a little bit, which one town wants to lynch? Idc, saw people voting hawk, so I voted himself too because he is also suspicious to me

I think I responded to this already at some point. I thought pressure and case on Sheep was pretty light but I wanted to wagon there to see how he responded. Turned out that was just going to be the main topic of the day forever and I jumped ship when I thought we had gotten most out of it. I don't like how sheep reacted over the course of the whole day but early on I was willing to shift the spotlight onto someone else (anyone who voted for Sheep or myself would have been fine because it was still early) so I may have played it a little loose voting Uzi but I wanted a shift in game perspective and didn't mind putting myself in a spot to be called out on such a fast switch vote.

Also to respond to

Sheep

Who asked me if I thought it was rather interesting that just 24 hours after blah blah blah. I work a fulltime job 9-6 everyday. I have 4 kids and a wife. This is a hobby if I come in and post its cause I had time. If I change perspective or vote in weird timing for you ignore that shit because it means literally nothing to me because you say it was 24 hours. But I have a real life so for 24 hours I didn't sit here and contemplate one of my 4 mafia games for 24 hours and then switch my votes for whatever reason. No I wanted a change in perspective because I didn't see anything new coming from what was going on your wagon, nothing strange about that 24 hour thing. This was an aside brought to you by the fact that I forgot to include it in my big long Sheep post but remembered it when I said switch vote.

Wheme, you really think who was on Sheep at the time is the by far most Alignment telling thing that's happend so far? you have no read on other things like actual game-solving done?

WHat did you think about lil's case on sheep a page ago or so. What do you think about me. and what did you think about my #311 about you?

I feel this game is just sheep/froggy arguing with each other,

and I think their both town. I like the way sheepy defended himself and how froggy pushed him. They are still both town reads for me.

Honestly I am behind, trying to catch up more and more but than more and more pages are getting added, which is why I'm really only responding to things being asked towards me, trying to catch up though. And ill hopefully have more reads soon.

Bolded this is fucking important because he thinks that sheep and fro99er was TvT (which there are arguments for but I don't think that)

I feel like this game is froggy vs sleepy, and I'm not sure on what to say about it.

No opinion on:

Lowell and my interactions
CO and Frogger's interactions
Sheep's response to it
Gerrygoat in general
Lowell on ECM and Naomi

There's a circus going on and you're just focusing on the last act.

Ill try to do this piece by piece, too try and show that I'm trying my best to help out town. Sorry if you prefer me to give my opinions in one big post though.

Gerrygoat in general has been useless IMO. He hasn't contributed anything to the game (less than me) and I find it suspicious. Only thing he contributed too was saying sheep slipped, and claimed that he was the one who pointed out the slip, but Frogger did IMO.

But I don't think mafia would do what gerry is doing, so Im going to say he's null-town

Sheep and Frogger have been going at it all game. At first I thought it was froggy just trying to get reactions out of others, but then it kept going on and on.

After reading both of their posts over and over I think sheep is trying to just blame froggy of not reading his posts/answering his questions/misrepping him. Which I think is a scummy move, just asking questions over and over again. I thought sheep's slip wasn't really a slip, but his posts lately have me thinking he is possible scum.

Lowell- I don't like some of his posts, such as iso #2. Where he voted sheep and said "is the slip real? who knows". Seems to me like he didn't have much reason to vote sheep and he didn't really care. I do like his recap on post #355 though.

Also said that EC/Naomi flipped when he had a FOS on them, yet I don't see anything that shows them flippinng out.

Possible scum.

I find it really strange how Lowell said AJ's posts are spot on and right. Yet in a previous post, AJ said that he thinks Lowell is scum.

Is that a slip?

I also think that Lowell is wrong on Naomi, she seems genuine town for me, and I will be against a lynch on her for a while.

EC, please get avatar, pls.

EC voted me for not explaining my vote on Hawk? Which I thought I did, and I had nothing else to say about it. Used my previous posts as an example of me saying nothing. And said me getting a vote on me is the reason I became substantial. Which was wrong.

If you guys want more or if I missed some things, ask and Ill try to explain best I can.
For now, id like to vote lowell.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Lowell

So a soft reads list here is good. I like the reasonings. Bolded what I think is important so I'm going to ask some questions really quick about them.

From this reads list you reread Sheep and Froggy's epic back and forth what changed in roughly 100 posts for you to go from TvT to TvS? Also in particular what about Sheep's posts did you find towny because I just want and idea into your though processes here. Please expand this read for me when you get the chance. I noticed it follows similar read down below but I'd like more.

Gerry is just too lurkery and too what to be scum? Please enlighten me as to what you meant there.

Agree with the comment about Lowell here but I do want to know what you like about Lowell's posts in 355 and why you scum read Lowell if you think Sheep is scum too? Do you see any associative here or are you just saying within these two there is at least one scum or??

Last thing, talk to me about AJ. Like the bolded underlined comment about a slip. Whats with that? You leave AJ out of your reads here and give a very very brief town read on him below. Why?? Talked to me here because this isn't flowing for me.

Want me to reveal?

Why do you ask Terata that? Like is there a reason its Terata? I understand there is pressure on you from him but.... Like why specifically him? Why specifically in response to his pressure. Why so quickly and so effortlessly rather than any other defense.

Froggy
Naomi
Tereta - Like his posts and his pushes on me and others
AJ - like how he pushes some people like Tereta is, asked questions to get discussion.

EC - FFS get an avatar pls,

I like how he pushed me for not explaining in detail with Hawk.
Gerry - Doesn't post much, but I don't think that scum would be so obvious
Lil Uzi - Posts don't contain much but every once in a while he posts something good, like post #287
Hawk - I don't really see where he fell off, can someone help explain that too me?
Chaos - I agree with others saying he tried to derail Sheep's wagon
Penguin - Not much to say with him only having 6 posts.

Sheep- Don't really like how his response to frog was mostey questions, and then called out frog for being scum by not answering said questions.
Lowell - His post counteracts itself when he said that he likes AJ because he is a lurker but when he posts his reads are spot on, but AJ called him scum earlier.

Okay Solid reads. Increasing size for ECM again because GET AN AVATAR!!! ARRGGHH so hard to see you sometimes lol.

Also of note here You don't provide reasoning for Froggy and Naomi. I understand that they are your top town leans. But here me out. I need to know why. Specifically about Naomi. Naomi has for me from what I've skimmed from rereading a few times now trying to catch up been fine, but nothing that couldn't be coasting under the radar. Not that I have particularly strong reads on Naomi I'd lean her town too just point out what really cements your read on Naomi for me would you?

Frogg is pretty obvious, but Naomi im more interested in, i think she seems like an active player overall and wonder what specifically makes you townread her. Also you dont have to think Hawk has fell off, just give your own thoughts on him.

(btw, are all your reads ordered? or is it just general tiers?)

I've liked her posts since her first one. I don't have much else to say besides that, her posts seem town genuine.

ok, thoughts on hawk?

I had a FOS on Hawk since the sheep slip, which I thought was weak, but I don't see how he fell off, which is why he's null for me, not scum.

I want you to address this really quick. Is your only FoS my vote because of a slip? Also why don't you see how I fell off. I basically became non existent.

I'll actually read later on.

Liar.

_____________________________

Spoiler: Spoilered wall post that I skimmed and liked

"What are all these bolded lines" you ask. Well it's all the things that pinged me in this post.
He seems super apologetic in his wordings which i haven't really seen from his previous play, an example being "im trying my best to help town" (talking about town as a seperate entity). I also had a problem with how he tries to take credit for coming up with certain reads that he clearly sheeped from others in the thread. If he said he sheeped them it would be completely fine, but he talks like he thought them up himself. Specifically the one about Lowell slipping about AJ's reads but also a little about the Sheep read, which was summarized with what problems other's have had with Sheep all game (and this is after he read the posts "over and over").

He made sure to point out someone who had done less pro-town things than he has (gerry) which mafia loves to do when they feel they're getting pressure even though there are towns not showing towniness. And he KEPT saying he's having the same null/townread about Gerry which he had for the same reason as earlier that had been called out by BOTH gerry and frogg, who you're still saying pointed out the initial slip. He just won't back down from his initial statement even though it's clearly wrong, and that's much more scummy than being wrong in the first place in this scenario. Also, why would he even say Gerry's been contributing less than he has if he's still null-townreading gerry? Seems like standard shade to me.

Last but not least i dislike in what form he gives his Naomi read. He says it like "I also think Lowell is wrong on Naomi..." as to shade Lowell (his scumread) for being wrong on a town, which seems like a tmi read to me if i've ever seen one. That read just doesn't come naturally to you to call Lowell wrong in your case on him if you don't know the alignment of the person being read. And disliked how he phrased "id like to vote" at the end. A struggling finish to a scummy post.

This is what a confident vote looks like VOTE: WhemeStar !

(Chaos made me doubt since his comeback)

Sheep fell apart. I can do Wheme.

VOTE: Wheme

Also, most of my reads are sheeps from other people

Want me to reveal?

I'm going to try and vote you again.
VOTE: Wheme
_______________________________

Spoiler: Why I think Gerry is scum

58, 134, 136, and 152

What first pinged me about Gerry before I did my first reread of his ISO was his 58. On the surface it looks like just filler, but if you look and think it about it on a deeper level, he's arguable treating himself as confirmed town that shouldn't be considered for a lynch today by anyone for getting the game out of RVS as well as starting a wagon on Sheep.

Fast forward to a bit to 134, he does the same thing again by discrediting not only Naomi's read on him but also her as a player by bringing up a previous game without any context in which he claims he got two members of the scum team lynched.

136 is self explanatory.

I'm inclined to believe 152 is more scum motivated than town motivated and it only reinforces my read on him. He's hints at a PR of some sort and says he shouldn't be lynched today. There was no pressure on him at the time and the overall focus was on Sheep as well as the various arguments Frog was getting into so it was odd for him to drop that soft like it's hot and just leave. Scum have more to gain by bread crumbing in my opinion. It helps them with fake claiming and it can potential draw doctors and jail keepers to them.

TL:DR: Gerry has been been basically treating himself as confirmed town since RVS ended.

I think Gerry tried to distance from Sheep early and it sort of backfired a bit. I also think he could be just scum that tried to spread and pray on paranoia early and Sheep is town.

If we lynch Gerry today, we'll probably feel a lot better about Sheep's alignment

LUV moves up in my townreads to join Fro99er and Naomi. Congrats on the promotion. Unfortunately there is no pay raise associated.

@Penguin, what is wrong with asking to reveal? I asked the question because votes were being put on me and people suspected me so I didn't know if I should reveal or not. But oh well, Ill do it anyway.

Im a

Town Odd Night Rolestopper.

. Sorry if my actions don't seem towny, Im working on it still.

*facepalm* this is bad. You've been told why its bad. But I'll explain. If you have a really good feeling about who could be scum and we lynch correctly today your role would prove very useful come N3 if you could make it that long but now you're never making it that far unless you're scum or we have some other god awesome PR's, the claim itself feels forced and awkward and entirely out of characteristic for someone with only a few votes on them. I understand Fro99ys hesitation to believe this. If anything it might have reinforced his vote.

PEDIT: Okay so not lynching you today is not necessarily good? If you're lying about role stopper being town this game town potentially risks you being able to hit one of our actual PR's tonight which isn't likely but still not good if we have a Cop or a Vigi with a good shot or a doc or something. I don't nesscarily want to lynch you because I don't think your play up until now has been too scummy but you have lurked a bit and haven't contributed much. I do like your reads I just want a lot more from you.

[Firebringer]

No flavor for this vote count because it was stolen by goblins.

Vote Count #1.08:

WhemeStar [L-2] ChaosOmega, ECMitchell, Terata, Fro99er, PenguinPower
Hawk [L-4] Aj the Epic, Cooperative Sheep, WhemeStar
ChaosOmega [L-5] Terata, Lowell
Lowell [L-5] Naomi-Tan, WhemeStar
Gerryoat [L-6] Lil Uzi Vert,
Cooperative Sheep [L-6] Hawk

Not Voting (1): gerryoat,

With 13 people alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

V/LA:

None.

Deadline:

(expired on 2017-02-13 15:45:00)

[Hawk]

bruh... did you really claim that fast lol. I'll actually reread and give my reads in a bit.

rolestopper is usually a maf role i think tho. unless we have like a vig or something..

if it's a vig that's all the more reason for it to be scum, because then it serves as a mafia protective.

If we have a cop, that's also more reason for it to be scum, because then it serves as making a buddy untargetable, like an ascetic.

Town rolestopper makes sense too as a protective to stop scum kills, especially if scum have something like a rolecop/Neapolitan/vanilla cop, because then not only can it stop a kill but it can help stop scum from their investigation.

It's all setup spec. What I don't like is the urgency on an odd day to out himself as an odd-night power role. It makes zero sense as town to want to claim it as far away as like L-3 (he did claim at L-2, but asked about it even sooner).

I'm so far behind i didn't even realize he was at L-2 for that claim I thought he was L-4 bleh.

[Fro99er]

So your willing to lynch me even though mafia will probably kill me tonight?

Becausethis is all fucking wifom

IF you are town they might try to kill someone else just to leave you alive for us to be like "why is Wheme alive"

horrible horrible wifom

[Hawk]

So AJ is super simple because his ISO is very short and his posts have pretty clear definition. I don't really read him town but I don't scumread him either. The pressure on me is nice. Super quick associative tells is nice but he's wrong about me and Lowell and I honestly feel like my inactivity is causing that so thats my fault. I'll respond to each of these in question then I'm going to ISO Lowell next so that I can maybe dissolve any pairing there since I'm town so I don't know who my team is.

ECMitchell, Tarata can I interest you in this wonderful investment called 'avatars'? They're never out of style.

@Lowell - So you would have been okay with the pressure on WhemeStar if you'd thought of it before me? Is that a habit that will carry through the game? Feels like it would make you hard to cooperate with if town.

Sadly Lil Uzi Vert is too bad to unvote.

Have you played with LuV before? Asking for a friend.

Can I ask if there's any reason you said that? Or if its just you're curiosity as why my vote is on him

Freedom of speech dictates you can ask whatever you want.

The reason is two-fold. First, my understanding of RVS is standard etiquette is to help push wagons early for reactions. This is how you get out of RVS, someone does something funny-looking (i.e. what sheep did). Secondly, specific to Uzi, he's generally lynchbait so I was interested if you knew this coming in. Pushing Uzi right from the start is a really easy scum read and a super easy way to look productive on someone who doesn't necessarily reflect pressure well.

Okay so.. Let me ask you a simple question; Was your post in question a joke or other wise non-serious post that is NAI?

It was a serious question asked in a mocking way, if he hadn't answered it would have been very serious - I leave it to you to classify that in your own joke range.

Btw Sheep, if I for example Whiteknighted you as scum, what would i gain in then instantly swapping you to a scum lean a bit later after i resisted the wagon? doesn't that kinda negate the pocketing the whiteknighting as scum could've possibly gained?

You swapped me after the pressure on me was relieved, which makes sense in a scum concept of hoping the lynch goes through and you look good for being 'right' and shifting me to a lynch option for later also plays to that potential scum play.

No.

I don't play this "answer my questions game." If you think that makes me scum for it IDGAF. I don't sit here and do what people tell me to do. That's not how I play so get off your damn high horse with this "I'd like you to do this" bullcrap.

You've already shown me you'll give absurd logic with that avatar retort. I'm not going to go around in circles with you. It helps nobody.

Could you at least address the point where I called you a misrepper/liar for how you changed up what Lowell said and then attacked me over my reaction to something that wasn't said?

Because I'd love to talk about that.

Vote: Frogger

Okay, my current scumreads don't exactly include you but this jump at the end is fucking atrocious. You go from 'let's talk' to voting frogger, who you claim to want to have a discussion with. You're so incredibly nitpicky especially in latter pages about what frogger said and not about what frogger's DONE. Because you attacking doesn't really solve anything Frogger had pushed for the last couple of pages.

While we're at it, Hawk is scum. He's sidelining as hell waiting for Frogger to push this lynch through for him. Not sure scumpartners but I think Lowell could be a second.

VOTE: Hawk

Frogger, I'm reading Cooperative sheep as scum if Hawk isn't, but this shit looks like heavy flailing. Other than this:

I generally like Naomi's entrance.
I also am okay with Terata.
That said I would tend to expect one scum amongst Terata, Naomi, and Chaos - just due to not having a town read on him and having one on the other two, I'll call it as Chaos.
I agree with people that are not a fan of Uzi's vote, but find it odd that some of these same people aren't citing Lowell.

There's really nothing outside a supposed 'slip' to call scum. And he's also picking up good reads otherwise (lowell/hawk).

So this is a really good post because to be honest its a very quick engaged post and directs attention to a good spot (me) I don't think I played early game well and I probably come off as pretty scummy early on. Especially with the sidelining comment. Boy was I a lurker. Also note that AJ kinda was doing the same thing here except he didn't have his vote on Sheep/LUV (who I had it on first and jumped off of sheeps vote but no one seems to notice that or think my jump wasn't me directing attention even tho I explain it as such post 130 people just didn't but it I guess?)

Theres only one thing I don't like about it and thats lining up lynches! Yay lynch lining. This isn't good for winning town points from me AJ, like I can understand really digging into the Lowell/Hawk pair and if I'm not scum then Sheep is but if you're scum with Sheep this is an easy way to buy loads of loads of loads of town points here setting this up. Say I flounder and don't do well at defending myself and this lynch goes through by the end of the day (I lynch) I flip green we lynch Sheep he flips red oh looky AJ was right. Whew looks bad. Untrained eye might look good but experienced town and scum know this can look very very shady! I don't like that play by him as side from that its a pretty good post. Only thing that gets really bad scum points tho. Everything else looks like good hunting.

Yeah but you're still not taking my advice and getting a fucking avatar.

Lowell's RVS vote tipped me off that he wasn't interested in either being part of the Whemestar wagon or was afraid of the attention. Then he hops on (what I think is) an easy mislynch. Same sort of style as Hawk.

Tbh if I was a god this scumteam is Whemestar/Hawk/Lowell because of Lowell's actions, but it could just be avoiding attention.

You're not god, that is not the scumteam (maybe Wheme and Lowell are paired idk) I'm not apart of it. Just thought I should let yall know.
I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because Wheme's ISO is super sparce and so is mine so it looks really scummy.

Gerry I'm still interested in:

Gerry, do you not have any opinions on who's scum now that your earlier wagon is somewhat contestable?

@Fro99er you and I have got to play more. That was almost exactly what I expected when you voted Chaos. The other thing I'd mention is that Chaos and Sheep have followed me both on Wheme and Hawk, which has been a bit weird considering in each time, this presents the next biggest counterwagon to sheep.

Hawk-Lowell and Chaos-Sheep have both shown patterns of following each other a bit more than I'd be comfortable with thus far. And uh...

AJ. The only real, strong townread I have in this game. His calling out hawk posts are spot on, and he's in general a good kind of lurker. The one that shows up, is right, then leaves.

????

This is my most recent substantive post...

Yeah but you're still not taking my advice and getting a fucking avatar.

Lowell's RVS vote tipped me off that he wasn't interested in either being part of the Whemestar wagon or was afraid of the attention. Then he hops on (what I think is) an easy mislynch. Same sort of style as Hawk.

Tbh if I was a god this scumteam is Whemestar/Hawk/Lowell because of Lowell's actions, but it could just be avoiding attention.

Uhhhhhhhh what the fuck do I say about this?

I don't like this, associative pairings this early while I understand the case presented is pretty easy to lump it together isn't a good way to read early. I don't like the lack of engagement. Like your reasoning on Whemestar being scum is very dependant on his playstyle being too lazy. So let me pose this question. If Wheme is lynched today and flips green where does that leave me and lowell for you?

No, if Wheme is scum, game's over because his partners are Lowell/Hawk.

Bleh stop stop stop, associative tells day 1 are disgusting. I did Wheme's ISO let me do Lowell's now. I'm going to grab a quick bite but going to finish posting at least a few more people tonight.

[Hawk]

So your willing to lynch me even though mafia will probably kill me tonight?

Becausethis is all fucking wifom

IF you are town they might try to kill someone else just to leave you alive for us to be like "why is Wheme alive"

horrible horrible wifom

This is true. If you're an unbelievable claim (aka there is no basis for us to believe or not believe you solely off of the claim alone) then leaving you alive for scum is fine since you aren't anything tomorrow but a VT who claimed. I'd be okay lynching here if we have too but I don't like it right now I want to give the day some more time to develop.

[WhemeStar]

So your willing to lynch me even though mafia will probably kill me tonight?

Becausethis is all fucking wifom

IF you are town they might try to kill someone else just to leave you alive for us to be like "why is Wheme alive"

horrible horrible wifom

If I was scum why would I claim that then? I would tell my team In daychat that I'm gonna reveal, and they would obviously tell me not to because of the reasons you stated would they not?

[Naomi-Tan]

I think I'm going to request replacement. I'm just not free enough right now to maintain a mafia game.

[WhemeStar]

I think I'm going to request replacement. I'm just not free enough right now to maintain a mafia game.

Wish you luck in your future games if you replace out.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

I think I'm going to request replacement. I'm just not free enough right now to maintain a mafia game.

[ChaosOmega]

So your willing to lynch me even though mafia will probably kill me tonight?

Becausethis is all fucking wifom

IF you are town they might try to kill someone else just to leave you alive for us to be like "why is Wheme alive"

horrible horrible wifom

If I was scum why would I claim that then? I would tell my team In daychat that I'm gonna reveal, and they would obviously tell me not to because of the reasons you stated would they not?

You do know what WIFOM means, right?

Not unvoting. I believe the odd-night rolestopper part of the claim, just not the town part.

[WhemeStar]

So your willing to lynch me even though mafia will probably kill me tonight?

Becausethis is all fucking wifom

IF you are town they might try to kill someone else just to leave you alive for us to be like "why is Wheme alive"

horrible horrible wifom

If I was scum why would I claim that then? I would tell my team In daychat that I'm gonna reveal, and they would obviously tell me not to because of the reasons you stated would they not?

You do know what WIFOM means, right?

Not unvoting. I believe the odd-night rolestopper part of the claim, just not the town part.

I just wiki'd it, so sorta? And I can't wait to get lynched and flip as green, because everything I try to save you guys don't believe or think is BS.

[WhemeStar]

In reply to Hawk, I thought Sheep VS froggy was TvT at first, but then I started to think that Sheep was scum, didn't like his responses to frog and how he asked questions over and over then called out frog for being scum for not answering those questions.
With Gerry its hard too explain, but all game his posts haven't said much and he's been around all game. I just don't think scum would want to do that, I haven't read his other games to see if this is how he is every game though.
I liked Lowell's recap of everything in 355. Made it easier to read the game IMO.
Look @ Lowell's 355 and then AJ's 374, if you look at it a certain way it looks like Lowell just slipped.

This may be a dumb question and I may be reading my role wrong, but if I hit a PR is that bad? I mean the PR can still do night actions, I just block the actions on the PR. So I can stop him getting hit by mafia can I not?

[WhemeStar]

The more i look into this, the more I see that my lynch is bad.
First off, mafia knows I'm town right? They want me lynched. So at least 1-2 mafia are voting me, thats a given. Saying this just so if I get lynched you guys can suspect the people voting me. Now, as people said my role is important. So that means mafia probably wants me dead right? So why lynch me if mafia wants me dead? You could say "well then mafia won't kill you so you we all question you day 2" Tell me how to convince you I'm town then, because I'm sorry if it doesn't seem like it by how bad I am playing but I want to win.

On a sidenote, what information is gained by seeing I'm Town Odd night Rolestopper

[Cooperative Sheep]

I'm not calling out cases for being hypocritical, I'm calling them out for being about hypocrisy.

Your case, to my mind, is based around an opinion of a given question being scummy vibing and a similar one not being - I think you're playing on the same hypocrisy basketball court they are, but you're claiming you're playing volleyball. I think it's a squint to call it not about the same foundation, and even if it is, it's about the 'feels' you get - and that's not a feel I'm getting.

I'm still fine calling Chaos scum though, I just got there on the WK road.

This reads like you don't want to try to understand why people are reading your behavior as scum motivated.

How does it do that? We're not even discussing anyone's scum read on me, we're discussing a scumread on Chaos.

[ChaosOmega]

Sheep, what are your thoughts on the Wheme wagon and his read progression on your slot from town to scum?

[Cooperative Sheep]

Re: Hawk's wall on me.

Complains that I don't sound at all times like I'm considering Frogger might be town.
Complains that, when i call Frogger town, I express distaste and issues with Frogger applying a case on me based off something that didn't happen.
Hangs a hat on how he's attacking me for attacking him.
Complains that I'm not on Chaos, even though I specifically said I was on the Hawk wagon because it was bigger.

tl:dr - I don't find his arguments town indicative.

[Cooperative Sheep]

@Chaos - you called him out for a read change with about 100 posts inbetween. I haven't gone back and looked, but I'm pretty sure Frog and I wall war-ed it up during those 100 posts in some level. I would also note that at some point in the game Frog claimed I lacked logic and about 2 players sheeped him off that call (even though later Frog admitted he'd "misunderstood" me in his case). While we're at it, people are still acting like his original case had merit, without comment on how even Frog shifted his case.

So, to be short, I think there was a silly amount of negativity and noise about the case, and I think multiple players (town and scum) kind of hopped on it/weren't reading and just going for the possible mislynch/some combination thereof. So a read change hardly seems shocking to me at that stage.

What are your thoughts on Hawk's wall on me? He says a lot of words, but they all strike me as rather silly, do they make a lot of sense to you? I think he looks like scum for reasons stated above.

[ChaosOmega]

Wheme, can you cite the posts that gave you pause and caused you to 180 on Sheep?

Hawk's wall on you, combined with his post on Wheme, looks like an attempt to derail the Wheme lynch and drag attention back to you. The case reads as recycled material and having an agenda. He's my top scumread not named WhemeStar.

[WhemeStar]

Wheme, can you cite the posts that gave you pause and caused you to 180 on Sheep?

Hawk's wall on you, combined with his post on Wheme, looks like an attempt to derail the Wheme lynch and drag attention back to you. The case reads as recycled material and having an agenda. He's my top scumread not named WhemeStar.

His ISO #8, #9, #11, he voted Froggy for not answering his questions, which looks like to me he tried to get a wagon on froggy going and get pressure of of him

[Lowell]

I haven't read through all of hawk's megaposts but I'm not a fan of the "well, I'm not scum, but I get why you guys think that, sorry I'm being scummy so far, I'll do better" defense. It trivializes things that are said against him.

[Terata]

So your willing to lynch me even though mafia will probably kill me tonight?

Becausethis is all fucking wifom

IF you are town they might try to kill someone else just to leave you alive for us to be like "why is Wheme alive"

horrible horrible wifom

If I was scum why would I claim that then? I would tell my team In daychat that I'm gonna reveal, and they would obviously tell me not to because of the reasons you stated would they not?

i feel like such a high % of your defense has been WIFOM, i don't like it at all, WIFOM isn't the natural towny reaction to people disbelieving a claim imo.

My usual way of dealing with things is to not risk lynching PR's and going elsewhere, i haven't decided where im at yet.

[Terata]

Hawk's first 2 paragraphs in #575 where he explained some thought processes from before was towny to me.

[Terata]

EC still feels sleazy and agenda-y to me. I can't completely explain it

[Terata]

Can someone explain the Rolestopper role to me (or link me to a role explanation). I've only played with roleblocker before, and that stops all actions like vig/cop/etc, but not the mafia factional kill if it's town sided. Does it do that here from what i've read?