Mini Normal 1879 Bringer Mafia II [Game Over]

[PenguinPower]

Also. I don't like walls - think I said that - so, yeah, not gonna do that either.

[PenguinPower]

^
page top steal

[Fro99er]

Finally came or of your scumchat to just throw up a readslist with no explanation?

Would have been better if you had phrased it properly. Dunno what you're trying to say - understand the underlying meaning though, with "or of your..."

I'm not going to post a lot of info based on my catching up. I do better with real time interaction. Sorries.

Came out of

[Fro99er]

Look forward to it

Look forward to you actually contributing

[Naomi-Tan]

Look forward to it

Liar.

So:

Spoiler: Colors

Fro99er

Naomi-Tan

Lil Uzi Vert
Terata
AJ The Epic

|
|

ECMitchell
gerryoat
Lowell
Hawk
ChaosOmega

|

WhemeStar

Cooperative Sheep

I likely, absent some game changing information, will never support a Frogger/Naomi lynch. Uzi is probs town because he is participating and providing way too much content for his scum game. Terata and AJ are more feels right now. EC is null because I hate walls and I cbf'd to read his posts. Gerry is null because he all his posts are null. Lowell has three posts. He did this as scum the last game I was in with him, so I'm wary. Hawk and Chaos...no reason, don't feel one way or the other on them right now. Wheme posts feel fake and I really don't like 315 or 332. Sheep has not handled pressure well.

Im going to go with my blank vote policy; Please explain why you have each of your reads using 25 words or more.

[Lowell]

From page 3, last I remember:

52- Lil votes sheep to L-3 [+, good pressure]
54- chaos votes wheme, asks what he thinks [-, possible derailment?]
65- hawk calls lil suspicious because he was "the last one to vote [sheep]" [-, what??]
76- AJ calls out hawk for being chicken [+]
80s-90s- Ter and naomi banter [ter looks bad, naomi looks good]
114- Lil explains sheep vote, three times, then promptly unvotes [-, why?]
120s- frogger pushes sheep wagon [+, good]
142- sheep, Lil, Wheme lead w/ 3 votes
158- sheep OMGUS' frogger
171- sheep points out ter's WKing, then reversal when wagon dies [+, hadn't noticed this]
200- EC enters to call out gerry [-, not particularly revealing]
213- AJ calls out hawk again [+, yep]
222- frogger joins hawk-wagon [+]
223- sheep, too [-, good vote, but why he and frogger besties all of a sudden?]
229- frogger notices, returns to sheep [+]
274- naomi post-walls, has NO scum candidates [-, weak]
282- chaos again defends sheep [-, twice now he's derailed]
284- ter votes chaos [+, good new wagon]
293- sheep and hawk lead with three votes
315- wheme calls hawk scum for jumping on "weak" sheep wagon [-, why weak?]
324- EC again jumps in to vote a lurkerish player [-, why not, say, Lowell then?]
346- penguin enters, votes sheep [-, opportunistic]

Some scums:

VOTE: chaos
Chaos looks to be making a specific and deliberate attempt to derial the sheep wagon early on. All of his posts are either subtle attempts to derail the sheep wagon or him asking "hey I wonder what player X think of the sheep wagon?" His entire game so far seems to exist only to make sure sheep isn't killed... without it appearing as so. This is protecting a scumbuddy or WKing a town to pocket him (I'm leaning the former), but either way chaos is certainly scum.

fos hawk

The way he talks in 65 and 75 he takes as given that sheep is not scum and the wagon on him was serving some other purpose than to lynch scum. But why? I notice he's not the only one to do this (Naomi does as well), but the fact that he doesn't even consider the leading wagon could be scum (or is even serious) reads like he already knows the answer.

fos naomi

Maybe someone is going to jump in and tell me there's a meta I'm missing, but to post so many times and not have any scumreads is just bad. I think she's at least partially playing up the "omg I can't decide, it's so hard to find scum!" angle to avoid having to take a stance.

Some maybes:

frogger

. As a rule I'm very, very skeptical of "that guy who everyone townreads." Frogger is no exception. I don't have a playstyle bone to pick here, but tonally he's not quite where I'd expect him to be as a widely-assumed pro-town player. tl:dr I'm putting a pin in this one.

sheep

. I read him as very scum at the start and less so as I read on, largely due to the associative things happening around him. He starting to feel less like obvscum and more like opportunistic target. His brute force responses to his critics read less scholarly than oppressive, so none of his defenses really stick for me.

EC

. This guy is just trying to hide. Don't have a strong read but there it is.

Some towns:

AJ

. The only real, strong townread I have in this game. His calling out hawk posts are spot on, and he's in general a good kind of lurker. The one that shows up, is right, then leaves.

ter

. Went 180 on this guy. Thought he looked bad in his first interactions with naomi, but now I look back and I think I misread that passage. I've liked the wide net he's casting and the way he engages.

Whoever is left, null, I guess.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

I don't really see an issue with PP's list other than Hawk and Omega. I feel they should be null based on how he described his feelings toward them. I guess it would help if he talked about what posts are giving him good feelings about AJ and Terata.

[PenguinPower]

Im going to go with my blank vote policy; Please explain why you have each of your reads using 25 words or more.

I have sufficiently explained my reads atm. Take it or leave it.

[Cooperative Sheep]

@Lowell - considering their relative wagon sizes and that you don't seem to like either player's play - why did you choose to hop on the Chaos wagon as opposed to the more vibrant Hawk wagon?

[Fro99er]

VOTE: Chaos

explanation incoming

[ECMitchell]

Lowell, I think I'd rather take the infrequent participation versus the frequent presence. Gerroat has posted plenty but actually said nothing yet. That rubs me the wrong way, and that doesn't actively aid town in anything. WhemeStar has posted a good chunk of fluff at well but at least has contributed something for me to work off of—and now I've tried to dig deeper into that.

The other lurkers aren't off my radar. Just not my focus right now.

I'll be busy for the most of the day and will be back when I can. For what it's worth, right now I'm feeling that Cooperative Sheep, Terata, and WhemeStar could be a scum team.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Replace Terata with Gerry and we're in business.

[gerryoat]

Replace Terata with Gerry and we're in business.

explain the scumread on me

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Replace Terata with Gerry and we're in business.

explain the scumread on me

When I get home.

[Lowell]

@Lowell - considering their relative wagon sizes and that you don't seem to like either player's play - why did you choose to hop on the Chaos wagon as opposed to the more vibrant Hawk wagon?

I'd do either, but didn't want to give up on my top choice until/unless it isn't viable. I don't see a deadline or anything.

[WhemeStar]

Ok, time to get active again, give me 30 mins or so to read everything.

[Lowell]

Lowell, I think I'd rather take the infrequent participation versus the frequent presence. Gerroat has posted plenty but actually said nothing yet. That rubs me the wrong way, and that doesn't actively aid town in anything. WhemeStar has posted a good chunk of fluff at well but at least has contributed something for me to work off of—and now I've tried to dig deeper into that.

The other lurkers aren't off my radar. Just not my focus right now.

I'll be busy for the most of the day and will be back when I can. For what it's worth, right now I'm feeling that Cooperative Sheep, Terata, and WhemeStar could be a scum team.

It's not your level of participation. I'd be a hypocrite for calling out a lurker just for lurking. The problem with you is that you show up and offer nothing but an attack on another lurker/quasi-lurker. It looks like you're avoiding conflict intentionally.

[Cooperative Sheep]

@Lowell - Do you not use votes for pressure and analysis? Seems like even if someone is your secondary/tertiary read if you are in a better position to pressure them it would still be worth your time, no? (I mean, I'll agree with Frogger's vote this is becoming more intellectual as a question than practical but still)

[WhemeStar]

Ok, time to get active again, give me 30 mins or so to read everything.

I lied, resident evil 7 for an hour or so and then back to mafia! Sorry about my inactiveness guys, this game is going by a lot faster than my newbie game is.

[Lowell]

@sheep- Yeah, I don't really care about whatever you're saying. chaos is scum so I'm voting him.

[gerryoat]

Replace Terata with Gerry and we're in business.

explain the scumread on me

When I get home.

ok. i'll be here waiting for you

[ECMitchell]

It's not your level of participation. I'd be a hypocrite for calling out a lurker just for lurking. The problem with you is that you show up and offer nothing

but an attack on another lurker/quasi-lurker.

It looks like you're avoiding conflict intentionally.

Calling absolute bull on this one. Show me the receipts.

The only person I've "attacked" for filler so far has been Gerroat. I quoted all of WhemeStar's initial posts to prove against their statement that they already explained their vote against Hawk in the first couple of pages—which they really didn't.

Also, the bold text in your quote suggests you see me as a lurker. Care to elaborate on that? Since I've been added as a replacement I've been on top of this game fully.

Now about avoiding conflict, I have two responses to that:

• I'm not. I don't exactly see how calling out two players (Fro99er, Naomi) for their play styles and persisting that a player justifies their vote (WhemeStar) constitutes "avoiding conflict."
  
  
• If I was, what exactly would your point be? Avoiding conflict isn't necessarily a bad thing, particularly this early in the game. Right now we're still about deliberation and facilitating discussion. I don't have to be going at people like Fro99er is Cooperative Sheep to advance the game in this stage.

Okay,

now

I'm really leaving for the day. Just had to respond to that one.

[Fro99er]

Here's my big case-y-wall-case thing. I hate walls for the most part, so this makes me a "giant fucking hypocrite" (remember that phrase)

There's several problems I have with Chaos' play so far. Some are more meta-based, but some are more evidence based in this game.

Chaos opens up in 54 voting Wheme, and asking him what he thinks about my pressure on sheep. It strikes me as odd. Why specifically ask Wheme, and why specifically about my pressure on sheep? I get that my pressure on sheep was the big thing happening at the time, but chaos doesn't give his own thoughts on it because, as he replies to me in 59 "I don't think they'd be super helpful." Yet he expects Wheme's thoughts to be super helpful or something?

Also, Chaos mentions he's not about the sheep wagon, but does not state why. It's an attempt to disrail the wagon without having to put in the work of doing so.

In 59, chaos continues

So, frog is town for the push on Sheep. This would lead me to think that you think his reasoning is good/genuine/some other good words. If this is the case, why be suspicious of other people agreeing and why townread Sheep? If this is not the case, why townread frogger?

He pressures Wheme about why wheme is suspicious of people sheeping me on sheep, the townread on sheep, and the townread on me, as if it's some sort of contradiction. But Wheme actually replies in 63

I think the push on sheep is weak, and frog made it seem like it was strong to get reactions out of everyone

That's a fair response, and jives with how he could see both sheep and myself as town, yet suspect others on the sheep wagon.

But here's where chaos gets manipulative. In post 109 Chaos asks me for my take on my own push on Sheep. Chaos has played with me twice before, once in my perfect scum win in BEES, and once in our perfect town win in MAFIACEPTION. So he knows I don't fuck around with my pushes. So I give my take that I'm serious about my push (which Chaos knew from meta, and if he's scum he also knows I'm town making a genuine push).

(I'll have more to say about 109 in a minute, but I want to continue on this line of thought around Wheme)

In 282 Chaos says

I assumed your push was genuine, and it seems like I was right.

He confirms he knew that my push was genuine, so this is clearly an attempt to turn this around on either Wheme or myself, which he does later in the same post

So this (wheme's post 63) has been proven wrong. frogger believes the strength of his push on Sheep. Since you think the push is weak, does this change your read of frogger at all?

This is manipulative because if Wheme answers "yes, my read has changed so now I read frog as scum" or if wheme answers "No" then Chaos can come back with "then your original reason for townreading frogger for a weak push on sheep was a lie, because you townread him anyway". Manipulative as hell. It pushes the suspicion elsewhere, while chaos doesn't actually do any work around the sheep wagon himself.

Here's where I come back to chaos' post 109. He answer's Naomi's question to him with a combo of 1 and 3, meaning a combo of "I don't think sheep slipped" and "I don't have strong feelings on sheep." My issue is he's expecting everyone else to have feelings around myself and sheep, yet he can't provide any himself. He just want to create Chaos (pun intended) around the sheep/frog thing, while sidelining what he thinks of me and sheep himself.

There's also the "slip" stuff which Gerry pointed out and I agreed with, and Chaos actively defended against. That was a second,more indirect attempt at derailing the sheep wagon. We disagree about the slip, and this argument won't get us anywhere, but I don't believe this gels with my meta of Chaos using the slip in MAFIACEPTION, even if he says its different. I was town there, and I'm town here, and I still like to push possible slips when I see its possible there was one. For chaos to dismiss it so quickly, given what he did in MAFIACEPTION and how easy it was for other scum to dismiss it so quickly, is just another little point.

The clincher is his post 341 where he accuses Terata of doing the same thing he did around questioning Wheme. Yes, terata did question Wheme, about the exact same thing, and Terata even called Chaos out in 283 for saying Chaos' post where he then pushes back on Wheme now that I've said my push on sheep was real. But the difference is in their tone. It's going to sound really fucking dumb, but the tone of how chaos did it vs. the tone in which Terata did it is miles apart. Here's the difference:

Chaos:

So this has been proven wrong. frogger believes the strength of his push on Sheep. Since you think the push is weak, does this change your read of frogger at all?

Terata:

Wheme, you said early you liked Frog for overblowing the "weak" (as you called it) push on Sheep and searching for reactions. Did your read on Frogg change anything when you got to know Frogg's push was geniune and not simply a push for reactions. As you said he's still a townread i would assume no? so did he do something else you liked or did it still deserve a townread from you for pushing something you called "weak"?

Terata asks hers in a way that uses lighter, less accusatory tone for example "when you got to know Frogg's push was genuine" (use of the word genuine), "As you said he's still a townread i would assume no?" (benefit of the doubt), "so did he do something else you liked or did it still deserve a townread from you" (gives Wheme the option of still townreading me for something else, deserve a townread is a much more engaging tone).

Chaos was "So this has been proven wrong" (Wheme was wrong), "does this change your read of frogger at all?" (comapared to terata's does frog still deserve a townread and maybe are there other reasons)

IDK...it's just tone. I don't really remember Chaos taking this tone in BEES or MAFIACEPTION as town, but that's speculation on my part until I re-read.

Finally, he then accuses terata of being either scum or bad town at the end of his post 341 because she did the same thing he did. But I really find it scummy when someone is like "oh you accused me of this and then you did it yourself so you are a hypocrite." NEWSFLASH: town can be hypocrites. Happens all the damn time. And it's a really easy point for scum to latch on to, because they don't have to do any work. Just yell HYPOCRITE at the top of their lungs. As Chaos basically did with

this would make you seem like a giant fucking hypocrite

[Fro99er]

@sheep- Yeah, I don't really care about whatever you're saying. chaos is scum so I'm voting him.

But noted that now sheep has tried to persuade you off chaos.

[Aj The Epic]

Gerry I'm still interested in:

Gerry, do you not have any opinions on who's scum now that your earlier wagon is somewhat contestable?

@Fro99er you and I have got to play more. That was almost exactly what I expected when you voted Chaos. The other thing I'd mention is that Chaos and Sheep have followed me both on Wheme and Hawk, which has been a bit weird considering in each time, this presents the next biggest counterwagon to sheep.

Hawk-Lowell and Chaos-Sheep have both shown patterns of following each other a bit more than I'd be comfortable with thus far. And uh...

AJ. The only real, strong townread I have in this game. His calling out hawk posts are spot on, and he's in general a good kind of lurker. The one that shows up, is right, then leaves.

????

This is my most recent substantive post...

Yeah but you're still not taking my advice and getting a fucking avatar.

Lowell's RVS vote tipped me off that he wasn't interested in either being part of the Whemestar wagon or was afraid of the attention. Then he hops on (what I think is) an easy mislynch. Same sort of style as Hawk.

Tbh if I was a god this scumteam is Whemestar/Hawk/Lowell because of Lowell's actions, but it could just be avoiding attention.

Uhhhhhhhh what the fuck do I say about this?