Board Games Mafia -- Game Over!

[Ectomancer]

Yeah glork was a mistake

vote: Cheesefan

for saying Glork was a mistake. I know, I saw your EBWOP but this was clearly a Freudian slip!

Sorry about the late arrival, I was looking for this game in other places.

[Ectomancer]

No honestly I feel lazy and it's nice to have someone else teaching the newbies for me.

I hear lazy is a scum trait. Are you not as concerned this game with teaching newbies because they are probably more likely to screw up the town's chances?

[Ectomancer]

No honestly I feel lazy and it's nice to have someone else teaching the newbies for me.

I hear lazy is a scum trait. Are you not as concerned this game with teaching newbies because they are probably more likely to screw up the town's chances?

You heard wrong.

I'm still wondering why you arent as concerned

this

game. Im sure there could be non-nefarious reasons for it. Then again, if you were scum you would know who your partners were. If you know they arent newbies, it wouldnt benefit you gamewise to educate the newbies would it?
So, Im wondering what the mundane reason is, and why you wouldnt have answered that part of the question the first time.

[Ectomancer]

Well, unsurprisingly, even in the game that BM was lynched in and was revealed to be a townie, CDB commented that he did not regret the lynch. He also stated that the mod saying that BM was town was a typo to him.

I'd rather lose such a player, unless he has a good role. I want to focus on real strategies, not stuff made up and in complete contradiction to posts. I do not play mafia to encounter such. So if we do not end up lynching BM today, mafia: please NK him. (But of course they won't)

I think this deserves my vote more than Cheesefan

unvote: Cheesefan, Vote: livingod

[Ectomancer]

i don't know if you know this, but lvinggod is a different person than wldhrt

It's interesting how people make that kinda mistakes. Or is it something more?

What mistake? I quoted livingod, I voted livingod and never mentioned wldhrt whatsoever. Someone is making a mistake here but I dont believe it was me.

[Ectomancer]

Ok, I guess I got it, he was joking that I should have put a vote on wldhrt.
So....I didnt see anything on wldhrt skimming back. Why exactly does she have 3 votes? You've been there since page 1 Fritz, no one else looks suspicious to you?

[Ectomancer]

Got some after-hours projects going on at work, trying to keep up here. Some interesting discussions, but right now, since Im having long periods between checking the boards,

unvote

. That wagon is heating up and I want the opportunity to confirm my vote before a lynch.

[Ectomancer]

Got some after-hours projects going on at work, trying to keep up here. Some interesting discussions, but right now, since Im having long periods between checking the boards,

unvote

. That wagon is heating up and I want the opportunity to confirm my vote before a lynch.

We are not so close yet.
You were voting your scumbuddy weren't you.
Don't worry Thesp the thing that looked like a mistake in your scumlist is fixed.

Or maybe Im not as convinced of so many "concrete lock" scum as you seem to be. I'd like to see more evidence and I havent seen enough to lynch livingod or anyone else yet.

Mod I think you missed my last one

Unvote livingod

@Fritzler Why did you just jump on a bandwagon with no explanation whatsoever?

I think the problem our cop is going to have tonight is not who is a likely suspect, but which of a couple shady characters look worst.

[Ectomancer]

Keep in mind that our argument doesn't stop the rest of the town from contributing in any way. All the people who chose to stay completely quiet on this are somewhat scummy\need replacing IMO.

That would be roughly everyone Seriously, allowing a discussion between 2 people to continue without outside interference is perfectly fine as long as it is going somewhere. I think Ive seen enough at this point though.
I'd like to get back to a couple posts by 2 players:

Well, unsurprisingly, even in the game that BM was lynched in and was revealed to be a townie, CDB commented that he did not regret the lynch. He also stated that the mod saying that BM was town was a typo to him.

I'd rather lose such a player, unless he has a good role. I want to focus on real strategies, not stuff made up and in complete contradiction to posts. I do not play mafia to encounter such. So if we do not end up lynching BM today, mafia: please NK him. (But of course they won't)

This got my vote before the wagon got hot, I got busy at work and wanted a chance to review things again, so dropped it until I got caught up. I'm thinking my original hunch was right Livingod, what say you?

@BattleMage - Ive seen a few bad responses from you. When your early reasons for voting were called "crap logic" you responded by asking whether Livingod had a personal vendetta against you as he was referring to your play in another game. It seems to be fairly common practice to check players in other games to get a feel for their style. Turning to the "personal vendetta" excuse instead of explaining yourself was poor. Then later when you were pressed again on your logic, you responded with this:

whether i can catch Mafia by luck or by skill, it doesnt really matter.
Fact of the matter is, i have discovered a Mafia member, but few are willing to commit themselves.
Anyway, as i say to my mates all the time-Luck is a skill in itself, if you can use it consistently.

Is this supposed to be a hint at a claim? It was rather too early to start trying to play that card if you were. You only had 2 votes, so I dont see how you could have felt under that much pressure.
If it wasnt a hint, what was it then? It certainly wasnt a defence of logic, more like an anti-defense. To paraphrase, you caught scum and how you did it doesnt really matter, and we should just believe you?

[Ectomancer]

You know, at this point I wanted to turn up the pressure a bit and vote Livingod to get the guy with the most votes to at least say something in his defense. I've got to say though, that the case is pretty weak, especially since I originally voted him for a comment he made about BM. The more I read BM, the more Im seeing Livingod's side of things. I see nothing pro-town in suggesting that we just do away with logic and vote on instinct, that the only way to find scum is to just start voting people off.

vote BM

Hows that for gut instinct?


Im not convinced one way or another that RR or Twito is town or scum. RR seems to have his ideas in order, and Twito is both abrasive and ...weird... but it still doesnt make him scum.

[Ectomancer]

Twito is both abrasive and ...weird... but it still doesnt make him scum.

My 6 "CLEAR and CONCISE" reasons for voting Twito do, however. What's your opinion on them?

"You have been hit by a wall of text! Critical 12000!"

You're killing me with it. Probably because Im sitting here at 4am with the flu. I did try to go back and find the 6 clear and concise reasons, but what I found after going back only about 4 pages looking for them, is they referred to other quotes another 4 pages back, which referred to quotes another 4 pages back, but never presented the whole case in one package. However, I have tried to follow your reasoning this entire time and honestly, all I see at the heart of it is an argument over semantics, coupled with Twito being deliberately difficult.
I know you spent alot of time on it, and it stinks when people dont seem to see what appears perfectly clear to you. If I missed something, thats just what happens when you are trying to read what eventually comes to resemble spam more than a reasoned discussion.
I think you both have spent plenty of time explaining yourselves, and its still sitting there to be reviewed later as events unfold.

[Ectomancer]

Im inclined to think that RR is town here, and that Cheesefan is merely very clingy scum. Plus i dont think RR would be foolish enough to associate with Cheesefan if he was scum aswell.

Massive HOS: Cheesefan

Hopefully you and your scumbuddy Cheesefan will take this on board Smile

I reckon your instincts are as constant as the wind

[Ectomancer]

Good lord....seriously I didnt request another wall of text. I was pointing out the problem with the previous ones. Here, read it again:

You're killing me with it. Probably because Im sitting here at 4am with the flu. I did try to go back and find the 6 clear and concise reasons, but what I found after going back only about 4 pages looking for them, is they referred to other quotes another 4 pages back, which referred to quotes another 4 pages back, but never presented the whole case in one package. However, I have tried to follow your reasoning this entire time and honestly, all I see at the heart of it is an argument over semantics, coupled with Twito being deliberately difficult.
I know you spent alot of time on it, and it stinks when people dont seem to see what appears perfectly clear to you. If I missed something, thats just what happens when you are trying to read what eventually comes to resemble spam more than a reasoned discussion.

I think you both have spent plenty of time explaining yourselves, and its still sitting there to be reviewed later as events unfold.

If you want a direct request from me, here it is. How about Twito and RR restrain themselves from making another post until the other 16 players in this game have posted at least once. That would make me happy.

@Twito Go scum yourself

[Ectomancer]

It was a wall of text, but it was a worthwhile read and you hadn't posted the same thing using different words 5 times before.

I realize that you dont have me high on your scum list, but you did FOS me, so I thought I would at least address what you had to say in my regards. On the lazy comment, I think this quote summed up where I was headed with that remark.

No honestly I feel lazy and it's nice to have someone else teaching the newbies for me.

I hear lazy is a scum trait. Are you not as concerned this game with teaching newbies because they are probably more likely to screw up the town's chances?

You heard wrong.

I'm still wondering why you arent as concerned

this

game. Im sure there could be non-nefarious reasons for it. Then again, if you were scum you would know who your partners were. If you know they arent newbies, it wouldnt benefit you gamewise to educate the newbies would it?
So, Im wondering what the mundane reason is, and why you wouldnt have answered that part of the question the first time.

So laziness in itself might not be a scumtell, but taken into conjunction with what he alludes to as normal behavior for him(teaching newbies), I had to ask why

this

game was different and provide a nefarious reason as to why that might be so.

As for the vote on Livingod, yes the previous 5 people all stated they didnt like Livingods statement about BM (who would like it?) But I was the only one who voted, making it the just the 2nd vote on Livingod. When you look at my obvious joke vote on Cheesefan, moving it to someone who seriously did make a scummy remark was a natural decision, regardless of whether the previous 5 people came to the same conclusion. Trust me, I didnt need them to point it out.

Yeah glork was a mistake

vote: Cheesefan

for saying Glork was a mistake. I know, I saw your EBWOP but this was clearly a Freudian slip!

Sorry about the late arrival, I was looking for this game in other places.

[Ectomancer]

If I was honestly trying to protect myself or somethin', why not wait until there's actually a sign of danger other than yourself agreeing with Twito on basically everything? I assure you that's not my intention.

No, I'm saying that you thought you had the town going with you, since Olio and Logictus seemed to agree with you, while the town couldn't get a word in edgewise. Now that you sense that it's not, you panicked a little bit, and seem to be trying to "prove your worth to the town" by finding something "groundbreaking."

An interesting point. Im also now a bit more suspicious of the single minded focus on Twito while Battle Mage was providing plenty of fodder (dont these games have more than one scum?), and now the intense interest in protecting livingod. Also noted is the method used. A vague promise of something groundbreaking in order to buy more time. Another word I could use is stalling.
Not that I think livingod should be lynched without a chance to claim. My personal vote is staying where its at.

[Ectomancer]

Guys, Im headed to the hospital. I dont know if I'll be admitted, but Im pretty bad off. Hoping to come back home, but we'll see. Please give me a couple days.

[Ectomancer]

Im back and alive, turns out I have pneumonia.

Please do not lynch anyone until I have a chance to catch up and comment on the latest turn of events.

Also, are we allowed to say things from our PM? I thought that saying specifically "I am Cranium" was against the rules. You can say you are cop, but not something directly quoted from the mod?

[Ectomancer]

You're contradicting yourself here. The town made it pretty obvious to me that if livingod comes up scum they'll lynch me tommorow and think Twito innocent. I think that's exactly what livingod was going for, that's why he made no effort to defend himself whatsoever, only to buddy up to me and distance Twito.

When and who said that if livingod comes up scum you are next?

QFT

Im not happy about RR's claim. I saw no reason for it, especially since you didnt even have a single investigation or were even really under pressure. It leads me to believe you're fishing for a counterclaim. I'm also not going for all the "if X is scum, then Y is scum too, or Z is innocent". This whole thing stinks to me like a scum sacrifice to place other scum in a much better situation.

[Ectomancer]

Alrighty RR, what was the result of last nights investigation?

[Ectomancer]

I don't think Raging Rabbit is scum. I think he was a bit whacked when he made the theory of Livingod & Twito working together. However, he has remained consistent with Twito, and Twito did go hard for Livingod's lynch.

So for now, I am going to

Vote: Twito

Livingod's posts were scummy, despite him being town. A few people were going after him, obviously, he was lynched. So, other than RR's "consistency" going after Twito (and please tell me how he could do otherwise with his claim of no result), what reason do you have for voting Twito?

[Ectomancer]

Actually, I think the better lead is right in front of me. Kison, you were the one that taunted RR until he finally hammered Livingod. You also tried to convince him that regardless of the outcome, RR would be in no more jeopardy than he would have been. Combine his unverified claim of cop, plus his equally unverified "I was blocked last night", it makes it tough to lynch him today doesnt it? So you werent far off, but it was a nice manipulation (cooperation with?) of RR, while being able to claim that you werent the one that actually hammered.
And all the while, your comments like:

Since Livingod is already at Lynch - 2, let's finish him off.

go unaddressed.
Why did we need to "finish him off"?

I'm very sorry that Thesp had no attention paid when he said:

Anyway, on with the livingod death and all.

Do you believe both Twito and myself are innocent? I admit I didn't think of this approach, but its annoying to me that what I consider pretty good evidence is being totally ignored. My cop claim had its reasons, do you find them valid?

I must have missed something - did you claim an investigation on Twito?

No. But I

am

willing to stake my life on Twito being scum, especially since I'll probably be lynched/under extremely heavy suspicion tomorrow if he isn't anyway.

This is a less than wise thing to do if you are town. I think Twito is more likely to be town, and now given your claim you are too (as its unlikely that scum claim cop unprovoked at this moment, as if they're still alive at endgame it raises eyebrows). I don't see why one of you has to be scum.

because I agreed. However, now more than ever I think that RR has played a horrible game. If he is town, he shouldnt have allowed you to egg him on to a lynch on his dubious livingod+twito theory that really only came up with when he could get no more support on the Twito wagon. He shouldnt have claimed when there was nill pressure on him to do so, and of course very convenient that he was "blocked" last night.

So I have RR as either scum pushing for counterclaims or a very bad cop, and Kison as either opportunistic in his chance to have someone else drop the hammer on a townie, or perhaps he was just trying to push RR to back his weak Twito+Livingod conspiracy with a lynch. Neither good for the town.

FOS Kison

for town lynch by proxy.

[Ectomancer]

I deleted the tag-error filled version of Ectomancer's post.
-Glork

[Ectomancer]

EBWOP

You also tried to convince him that regardless of the outcome, RR would be in no more jeopardy than he would have been.

I told him that in his current situation, at the time, with hardly anyone buying his theories, that he'd have just as hard of a time convincing people to lynch Twito than he would the next day, regardless of the Livingod lynch result. However, he, and many others(myself included) were expecting to see Livingod come up as scum. However, he did not. Although it debunked his Twito/Livingod theory, it does not debunk his original theory nor does it remove the scumminess of Twito's posts.

No, it was like I said, you tried to convince him that he personally would be in no more jeopardy, not that he couldnt prove his case on Twito.

You seem afraid that a Livingod lynch means your lynching. However, I see no reason to think that you will have any MORE of a hard time convincing people that you're innocent with Livingod DEAD than you would right now.

He supposedly was already ultra-paranoid about his impending lynch (he says the pressure caused him to claim). You preyed on that fear by giving him an ultimatum, lynch Livingod or else be considered scum if he comes up scum.
I already said that Livingod made some scummy sounding statements, so RR would have felt it a good chance that Livingod would turn up scum. Being the cop, he *should have* wanted to get a confirmed investigation before lynching anyone. But your statement just reinforced his thinking that he would be lynched, only this time for sure if he didnt jump on. I doubt he believed that any night result he could claim would save him either. This left almost zero chance he would refuse to lynch.


Well, I kicked it off. I should climb aboard.

vote Kison

[Ectomancer]

ive gotta say, the people on the Kison wagon look bloody opportunistic. I'm also surprised that no1 has questioned RR's dubious cop claim.
I will now.

Vote:RR

I havent forgotten about you Battlemage. But out of you and Kison, you are currently the weaker case. That quote coming from you actually makes me lend

more

credence to RR's claim, not less, especially since at least a couple of us have already expressed our doubt about RR's claim.

[Ectomancer]

The claim is dubious. But I have to ask myself why someone who I feel is scummy would vote for him. One reason would be distancing or bussing if RR is scum, the other would be that he really could be a cop and scum would love to see him lynched to free up a roleblocker for someone else. From the situation at hand, Im leaning towards the latter because I cant see the advantage for scum to lynch RR right now if he were scum. On the other hand, if RR is town, you dont know who the Doc might be, so you cant even consider a NK on RR until you find him. Therefore, scums only play will have to be to lynch RR until the Doc is found. Lynching RR is not good for the town until we get some more facts at hand. Take all those statements together, and you can see why I felt your statement added credibility to RR's claim.
Also, what was the opportunity to produce evidence? His claim would have made him the obvious target for a roleblock. He had no investigation prior to that. His problem now is he is a lame duck cop as long as a roleblocker is out there, which is why he really should not have claimed in the first place.

This is yet another reason to add to a

FOS: Battle Mage

[Ectomancer]

Tomorrow we can see about Twito.

I'm failing to see how this is holds any significance. My agreement to reconsider the Twito case in light of new events the next day is hardly a scum-tell.

I'm not going to go in depth yet again about my reasons for voting for Twito, as I feel I've made more points for why I did it than everyone else has about denouncing my claims as scummy. If you all want to actually read what I've said and bring up some questions based on it, then I'd gladly clarify things. However, again, I'm not going to waste my time when everyone seems to hardly reference what I've said.

Wow, a "poor me, everyone ignores what I say" post. The problem with that is I did reference at least one of your rebuttals, and then Zindaras did a point by point of the rest of them. Are you going to do as you claim everyone else is doing and completely ignore Zindaras' post? He posted it a good 12 hours prior to your post, so you cant claim you missed it.
Next, you reference a quote made by you that HackerHuck brought up in his post and refuse to give him 3 concise reasons why you think Twito is scum. You claim the reason that you wont do it is because nobody addresses what you say, and I already pointed out that Zindaras' post makes that claim a lie.
If you are town, the best thing you can do is defend yourself against the accusations, not make yourself look even worse by refusing to explain your reasoning.

[Ectomancer]

@Kison
Ok, I went back to look at things again.
I was sick, so I figured perhaps I missed something, Im human. What I found when I went all the way back to when you replaced in was nothing.

Not even a single oblique attack or reason for considering Twito scum prior to your vote.

Your reasons after voting were addressed by me a couple times. You responded with

paraphrase

"Twito was scummier in his posts than RR". You never explained why Twito's posts were scummier, but are basing your vote on that premise. Once again, can you give 3 reasons why Twito's posts were scummy?
And.... after your vote Zindaras addressed your defense point by point and you have ignored it.

***I got the site exceeded processor limits message and see Hackerhuck posted since then, so please make an allowance for the echoed points.

[Ectomancer]

For Zindaras:

----->Scum
Kison
Battlemage

----> Probably Scum

----->Could be scum
Fritzler
Shadowlurker

-----Jury is out
Olio
Nightfall
DOS
CES

------>Could be town
IH
Zindaras
Logicticus

------->Probably town
Hackerhuck
Thesp

-------->Town
Twito
RR



Rules of the post your scum/town list game. You must post yours

prior

to being allowed to ask for explanations of anyone elses list.

[Ectomancer]

----->Could be scum or town and HE doesn't even know it yet (and he's supposed to be omniscent)
Fritzler

fixed

Heheh, you do crack me up at least

[Ectomancer]

1.Ecto, because you post your list of scum and such doesn't mean you can just refuse comments until others do the same....

Sure it does. I can do whatever I want. There may be consequences, but still, I can do whatever I want. I see nothing wrong with refusing to answer a question regarding a list from someone who refuses to play along and post their list first. In fact, I see several reasons to

not

answer until they have committed themselves. I'm not going to allow them the luxury of adjusting their answers based upon my answers before they've set in writing what their original thoughts are. At least then, we will see the evidence of a change, or perhaps even prevent them from being able to dance their way out of something. You cant do that unless they first commit those ideas in writing. Do you see my point?

[Ectomancer]

I see no reason why Monopoly cant be his actual role name. A game like Monopoly, you want to get all the property and cash in the town for yourself. That could easily be flavor for scum. Im not sure how obvious the names are going to be as far as roles go. Some will be a close match, but others?
So, I doubt we'll see a counterclaim on Monopoly because though it could be vanilla town, it could also be scum. If your name is as ambigious as that, there's no reason to just randomly choose a board game name and hope no one else got it.

[Ectomancer]

unvote Kison

[Ectomancer]

Ecty, why this change of heart?

I needed a minute.

Unfortunately, all money I contain is... well... fake... Therefore I hold no true powers.

Despite the case against him, when I read this, it rang true to me. Certainly better than the loose reason I gave for Monopoly being a scummy game. Now I need to decide that if I believe that was his tell, could it also be used as both a vanilla town, and a vanilla scum role. If not, it is probably a vanilla town role.

[Ectomancer]

I wanted to add to my thoughts on RR. Not only do I think it is worthless for the time to lynch him right now, I also think its pointless to protect him from a NK. Right now, it looks like he is being roleblocked. If so, they dont need to both NK and block him, they already have him neutralized.
Sure but they could decide to off him, and there goes our cop.
Well, looking at the size of the game, Im guessing we probably have another cop out there, or a deputy. While they have RR roleblocked, they are fishing around with NK's for our Doc and any other power roles. We need to block that fishing around from happening. The worst result for us if RR got NK'd would be that someone else with an investigative role could be protected and more importantly, in the case of a deputy, new powers would emerge for a player who hasnt claimed, so the scum would be back to guessing for roleblocking purposes. Certainly more likely to get a good investigation than the current no hope for RR.

[Ectomancer]

So RR ain't dead yet? What's wrong with you guys?

Please keep up.

I wanted to add to my thoughts on RR. Not only do I think it is worthless for the time to lynch him right now, I also think its pointless to protect him from a NK. Right now, it looks like he is being roleblocked.

Holy Flaming FOS: Ectomancer.

He looks like he knows way more than he should. He should be vigged tonight.

Who isnt keeping up? Either RR is scum, or he is a cop who was roleblocked per his claim that he got no result from the night before. Im not "knowing" anything more than anyone else who has been reading the thread. I explained my logic behind not lynching RR anytime soon, and also why we shouldnt care about protecting him at night either. If you want to argue either of those conclusions, the line of thought is laid out for you, and nothing is taken anywhere but from posts that everyone has read.

[Ectomancer]

Kison has been active recently in other games. I doubt he intends to come back, since he expects to get lynched anyway.

Unvote, Vote: Kison

I'd rather lynch you today.

vote: Battle Mage

[Ectomancer]

Twito's investagation fishing is quite scummy imo, and he remains by far my favorite lynch.

My current plan is to tell you I've got

an

innocent in the case of an innocent investagation, but not the name of the player in case he gets NK'd.

IH, I get that you think I'm stupid. Could you please stop endlessly repeating that?

Twito may not be vanilla townie, but he's not scum either.

How is witholding the name of a returned innocent until after he's been NK'd supposed to help with your claim?

[Ectomancer]

What are your thoughts on BattleMage DOS?

[Ectomancer]

If Kison is lynched and comes up town, what sorts of people will you look at?
If Kison is lynched and comes up scum, what sorts of people wil you look at?

If Kison = Town; scumpossible(+1) = Zindaras, CES, DoS, Olio/Sefer; else scumpossible(+1) = Ectomancer, HackerHuck, logicticus.

I'm looking at Ectomancer (and to a lesser extent CES) either way.

Yes I know, because I presented the case, then backed off of it. Let me then ask you this rhetorical question Thesp. What is the point of asking for a claim? Certainly part of it must be to give that person a chance to change your mind about their role. He claimed, it rang of truth to me. Therefore, I need more time to consider. Kison isnt the lynch today. He might be tomorrow, or the next day, or not at all if my gut reaction to his claim is correct.

@Twito Sup? Who should be the lynch today?

[Ectomancer]

And you seem to be feigning knowledge of the obvious. Anyone who gets a wagon cranked up, then hops off when its good and hot is going to be viewed with suspicion, which is what I thought you were refering to when you said you were looking at me either way. Hence, I explained why I am holding off on lynching Kison.
Second, you still have yet to demonstrate exactly where I displayed this mafia-only knowledge. I accused you the first time you said this of not keeping up with the discussion, and looks to me like you still havent gone back and read it again. It looks like you skimmed, thought you saw something, and posted.
Im definitely suspicious of you. You could have refuted, or even addressed the logic of my breakdown of the situation with RR. But you didnt even try. If I was using information that only mafia could know in building and defending that case of logic, you could have pointed it out and I could either show you were I got it in the conversation, or I would have no explanation for where that information come from. As I said however, you didnt.
This is twice now you've given a vague accusation of me. The first time you ignored my challenge to refute my logic or explain yourself. To do so again would just illustrate that you are building a phantom case and expect that if you repeat your vageries enough someone might come to believe them.

[Ectomancer]

Actually Thesp, I just realized what it is that set you off. Keep it until later and I'll explain it to your satisfaction. It would not however, be the right time to explain it now.

[Ectomancer]

I think we are right in looking at the Kison list of voters for sure. That wagon was so hot, I thought a lynch was coming at anytime. If he does end up town, I think we can bet the farm that a majority of scum were on that wagon. Even if he was scum, we can also make a safe bet that at least 1 scum was hiding on that wagon.
My understanding is that deadlines are usually used when discussion has trickled to a minimum. I dont get that vibe here.

[Ectomancer]

Well, it is likely that we have a mafia RB, so I don't think there's anything wrong with Zind's thought. And the whole "fake money" argument means nothing to me. There aren't going to be any games with real stuff, you know? They're

games

, it's all fake.

Actually, I do buy that the fake money means he has no power. Some of the games do have real power, such as the detective role possibility in Clue.
Conversely, I have no idea where Battle Mage is getting the town vibe from in Kison's actions. I dont get that from his actions at all, I just have some belief in his role claim.

[Ectomancer]

To me, this looks like someone trying to latch onto someone with alot of suspicion, in order to lynch someone protown. Certainly looks opportunistic.

Although there is some truth to that statement, I hope you're not suggesting that asking questions is scummy.

QFT


@HackerHuck I used Clue as an example because it had already been used. As far as RR is concerned, no, I wasnt trying to bring out anymore doubt than already exists, but that example could be used to highlight a few things about his claim.

[Ectomancer]

Twito, if you want Sefer lynched, you had better stop letting BM lead the charge. He makes Sefer look beautiful in comparison.

[Ectomancer]

O.o

Anyone else interested in a BM wagon? Low mileage and it practically fuels itself!

[Ectomancer]

Im already voting BM Zindy. I thought my comment was at least a slightly humorous way of expressing my views of his last recent actions.
He is 2nd in votes right now with a declining Kison wagon. It looks like he is feeling some pressure. So what Im reading is he felt pressured to echo everyone elses sentiment and jump off too. Only he misread what people were seeing, and stated the exact opposite assessment about Kison.
Now, he needs someone else for the spotlight and focuses on Olio/Sefer, trying to create a barn out of sawdust and has completely ignored the repeated requests for him to clarify his statements about Kison.

Hope you like that better. Im in a good mood today and thought you might appreciate some humor. I can see why you might want the content as well, but damnit, I deserve to make a snide every now and again!

[Ectomancer]

focussing your attention on things that you are told to focus on by players who you dont know the affiliation of is not a wise move. Often the first people to befriend a new player will be Mafia, and they will try to guide your first interpretations. If you were a protown player, you would read the whole game for yourself, and draw your own opinions, BEFORE reading others requests.
<snip>
My arguments arent newbie, or over-defensive. They are logical considering that i am supposed to be catching Mafia. Dont forget, in Mafia it is not just what you say, but how you say it.

Your argument isnt logical, its WIFOM. If often the first people to befriend a new player is mafia, then to catch mafia, all I have to do is replace in and ask someone to help me. But then mafia would know I know this and so I should look for the person who doesnt help me.....

[Ectomancer]

Wow! We really should have kept this a town secret! *sigh* Cats out of the bag now

[Ectomancer]

As I understand it, that FOS along with your description of WIFOM is ridiculous. Never have I heard anyone else explain that the only way a situation is WIFOM is if it indicates a town leaning and is used to defend your towniness. Thats certainly not the way the wiki describes the situation.

Lets take BM's premise as fact for the sake of argument. Men who tip their hats in greeting are typically from England. (or in this case scum greets you helpfully) Since everyone knows this, you tipped your hat, therefore you must be scum. But then you would know that I know men fom England typically tip their hats, and so you wouldnt tip your hat. But then you would know that I would know that you would know and...

That's my understanding of WIFOM, and thats what I see BM doing, and that is completely aside from whether his premise is correct in the first place.

[Ectomancer]

Man, that was a bad night....

Off to re-read in light of these developments.

[Ectomancer]

HackerHuck, Im afraid I agree with Zindy after the double kill last night. Anyone who is town and has information must be weighing the benefit of staying quiet vs the possible loss of that information if NK'd. I also believe it is better to reveal right now than risk information being lost.

I wanted to add to my thoughts on RR. Not only do I think it is worthless for the time to lynch him right now, I also think its pointless to protect him from a NK. Right now, it looks like he is being roleblocked.

Holy Flaming FOS: Ectomancer. He looks like he knows way more than he should. He should be vigged tonight.

I told Thesp that I would address this later. There is still a good chance that I wont be NK'd tonight just looking at the numbers, but then again, with 2 people dying last night, I dont think I should wait any longer.

There is one way that I could know for sure that there is a mafia roleblocker, and that is because what I am guessing is a rare event happened on night 1.

I investigated Twito and got an innocent result. You will recall that RR also claimed to have investigated Twito on night 1.

Assuming that really RR/Jalyn is a cop, and got a no result from that investigation, then we have a confirmed mafia roleblocker and they target a single townie.

I'll address next, why I believe there is a 2nd cop: I wasnt real sure with RR, his claim didnt make sense to me, but neither would it make sense if he were scum. What made me believe was when Jalyn name claimed as Cranium. The reason is that my name is Trivial Pursuit and we both investigate roughly the same way. We both dip into our vast knowledge of basically everything to get information on 1 target.
With us having very similiar methods, I believe his claim of Cop.

Next we have, if we believe them, Zindy and IH as Masons. Do we believe them or not? For the sake of this argument I will believe them.

After that we have Fritzler and his claimed confirmation of Thok as a townie. For the sake of argument, I will also believe them. Why I will believe Fritzler is based upon the flavor of this game. Most games are a roll of the dice, outcomes are based on chance. I believe Fritzler was the random roll. Fritzler, I would be interested in exactly what you did last night, if anything at all.

Next we have my 2 investigations. You already know I got an innocent result from Twito. I also found Sefer to be innocent.

The reason I brought this up last, is because by now I have demonstrated a list of town roles claimed, plus the already dead. On the town side, we have:

Doctor
Inventor
Cop1
Cop2
Masons

Random dice roll in Fritz

Now we need to figure out what would counter-balance those claims on mafia side

I've confirmed a mafia roleblocker
I would be amazed and shocked not to find a Godfather.
There should be at least one more good mafia role. Might be Goon if 5 scum.
Probably an SK role, because Im not buying a Vig right now.
Mafia Goon- dead Battle Mage

Ok, so I have, taking everything as fact up to now, which is NOT necessarily true, the following list of possible mafia:

HackerHuck
Thesp
Kison
DOS
Nightfall

Sefer and Twito get their own category

HackerHuck: Feels like town to me. Low on my suspect list
Thesp: Also feels like town. Brought up my discrepency of knowledge openly. Scum should have just NK'd me for that.
Kison: I brought a case for him and only backed off because of his claim. He is a good play for today.

VOTE KISON

DOS: Honestly havent looked deep. However he was never on my "town" list.
Nightfall: See DOS

Now to Twito and Sefer. Obviously they are here because I am 95% certain that there is a Godfather. I am leaning towards Twito for several reason. He is a lynch for later, no time soon. Just remember what I've said down the road.

So, I think that sums it up. I think the rest of the town can take that knowledge and help to narrow down that list with what they know. Also (appealing to higher authority), look over my assessment and point out the flaws. I still believe that now was the right time for me to also claim Cop.

[Ectomancer]

I considered that possibility, my PM gives no indication of doubt in my role or sanity. My guess is that should either I or Jalyn end up being insane or another variation of cop, that it would be a minus on the required scum balancing roles.

[Ectomancer]

@Kison and Jalyn
I would consider the possibility of a weaker or insane cop role, but I still believe it would not counter-balance the scum roles enough.
My feeling, is that we have a roleblocker and an SK

for sure

.
We probably have a Godfather role as well.

@Jalyn
Occam's razor, as well as the concept KISS, suggest that the result of 2 simultaneous investigations on the same target getting the results we did is that a roleblocker exists. Couple that with the assumed town roles and it

demands

a counterbalancing role.

[Ectomancer]

I dont agree with your assessement IH. It doesnt make sense for a sanity problem for Cranium to take the role of being a no result every turn. RR didnt have to claim, so consider yourself in the role of a non-claimed cop. Wouldnt you expect something other than no result?
I personally do not doubt my sanity, just the results because I suspect a godfather.

[Ectomancer]

Ecto, if you are sane, it's highly doubtful Twito is a godfather. RR basically telegraphed who his night choice was going to be; it would make little sense for scum to roleblock a cop who was known to be investigating an investigation immune godfather.

Im sorry, I did think of that, and forgot to include it in my list of possibilities. Given the town roles, I dont think that makes it any

less

likely that a Godfather role exists however.

[Ectomancer]

I almost forgot. No one addressed the Vig vs SK issue. Is it assumed we have an SK, or does someone have a real reason to think we might have a Vig?

[Ectomancer]

Given a choice between Trivial Pursuit, which is a straight up question and answer game, and Cranium that has been described as more of a figure it out type game, I would say Trivial Pursuit is more likely to be sane, while Cranium you couldnt be sure of the answers given.

[Ectomancer]

I wasnt intending to confuse HH. I feel confident that my theory on Fritzler is sound, but Im still waiting on his answer to my question.

Fritzler, what exactly did you do on night 1, if anything, and what did your message (roughly) say that gave you your alignment?

[Ectomancer]

I wasnt intending to confuse HH. I feel confident that my theory on Fritzler is sound, but Im still waiting on his answer to my question.

Fritzler, what exactly did you do on night 1, if anything, and what did your message (roughly) say that gave you your alignment?

nuttin

and it said i would lose if i died before night 2, i'd get a new win condition then

also, i want to hear your theory before i claim cuz its not right

Hmmm. I was thinking you had to choose a teammate or something and similiar and assume their alignment once you did. If you didnt do anything, that obviously is wrong, so I'll consider some more unless you claim beforehand.
Regardless, I dont think it is going to change my play for today. I believe this puts him at -2.

vote Kison

[Ectomancer]

Im following the conversation, looking to see which of the many theories being tossed around looks to be the most likely to be correct.

[Ectomancer]

unvote Kison

[Ectomancer]

Twito's boost can't allow a second target, given the information he listed. The targetted person is not told that they were affected - being asked for a second target would be telling them that they were affected, wouldn't it?

unvote Kison

Any reason?

Makes sense to me, Im still not sold on what that boost does or doesnt do.


Same song, 2nd verse.

[Ectomancer]

It's called waffling.

[Ectomancer]

That's the point. There was nothing behind it, so you are essentially hopping onto a random person because you haven't gotten a read on them.

if you were going to do that to anyone, I'd say do it to DoS.

Werd.

[Ectomancer]

How do you use this filter? I dont see anything that lets me sort this topic on only one person's post.

[Ectomancer]

DOS, what exactly are you trying for here? Are you honestly chasing me with an FOS over this Kison vote? Guess what, I have a right as town to not be sure. How about you?
You have this drive to lynch Kison that I find only adds to your scummy aura. You are definitely on my list of possible scum and IH's points are dead on.
This has a semi-OMGUS, except for the fact that I already had you on my possible scum list, which just went from possible to probable.

Vote: DOS

[Ectomancer]

The bottom of the thread, right under the "submit" button.

That's beautiful.

[Ectomancer]

I'm just saying that the fact that you have waited to do it until the wagon picked up two days in a row is scummy not that you are unsure. But answer me this if you were still unsure of Kison why did you vote him again in the first place?

Not every vote is intended to result in a lynch. I like to know who is going to jump on a wagon and why, especially when those people have a history of jumping on the hot wagon.

[Ectomancer]

Kison, you are at L-1. Please come forth with that PBP.
If anyone jumps on before he gives it, my vote will be nailed to your ass tomorrow.

[Ectomancer]

Are we just stalled until someone else votes Kison?

[Ectomancer]

As you may have guessed, the investigation returned no result.

[Ectomancer]

I'm fine with a mass claim; if we go through with it, I'd suggest Thok go first (since he suggested it) and have each person choose the one who will claim next.

Huh? It's fairly clear that any logical mass claim order has Fritzler going before me.

Agreed.

[Ectomancer]

I'd like Sefer to go sometime soon.

On what basis? That he is a probable Godfather, or that my investigations are wrong?

[Ectomancer]

I think that with Fritz's claim there's good reason for me to go last. (Fritz's claim was mostly what I was expecting, although I wasn't necessarily expecting Diplomancy as opposed to some other game).

We need to find an order of Sefer, Nightfall, HH, DOS? I don't really care what order they go in among those 4.

I'm not certain I agree with you going last. If you are scum, you could be waiting to hear the other roles so you don't make the mistake of getting counter-claimed. Is there a good reason for Thok to go last?
Also, I'm good with the idea of each claimant choosing the next one.

[Ectomancer]

@Thok - Who do you feel definitely should claim before you do?

[Ectomancer]

EBWOP: Sorry, meant other than Sefer.

[Ectomancer]

Alrighty. I'd like to see claims in this order:

DOS
Nightfall
Hackerhuck
Thok
Sefer

We could argue all day about the order, but I had reasons for choosing this one. Did we miss anyone?

[Ectomancer]

@ Ectomancer
What about
DOS
Hackerhuck
Nightfall
Sefer
Thok
?

I am okay with not really going near the end, but I think that
1- DOS needs to be first (Im getting the most anti town gut fealings from him)
2 - I would like to go after HH. No dire live or die reason, I just don't feal as comfortable with him as I do with others.

And, I think it would be ok to have Thok claiming last, although Fritz's allegience isn't certain, he is speaking in Thoks favour.

I hadn't planned on negotiating the list. I have reasons for it being the way it is.

Also, I think you're correct in making sure we know exactly what we intend to claim. In fact, I'd like to do this:

First round - role name

After the first round of claims, we choose a different (or possibly the same) list order and claim the boardgame name. If we have people making up fake claims, this might help us catch them out. They might not get countered on their role, but slip up on the game name. Switching up the order (or not) will keep them guessing about what might be safe to claim. Does that make sense? I also considered doing it the other way around, game name first, then role name the 2nd round.

[Ectomancer]

Page 57, you're probably right. I get the feeling we've already lost the interest of many.

I've provided a list HH, I thought that I had been "elected" to do it. I'm ready to hear from DOS, and it looks like we're doing the whole shebang at once.

[Ectomancer]

Speed be damned, I'd prefer to reserve

some

information until after the claims. Let's wait.

[Ectomancer]

I don't know what I may find out by waiting for the night choices until after everyone has committed to role claims, but I would rather wait and have the opportunity, rather than seeing something go down where Im thinking, damn, we should have had them wait to divulge night choices and we could have found out X....

[Ectomancer]

I don't know what I may find out by waiting for the night choices until after everyone has committed to role claims, but I would rather wait and have the opportunity, rather than seeing something go down where Im thinking, damn, we should have had them wait to divulge night choices and we could have found out X....

It's a question of whether you believe DOS is scum or not.

If you believe DOS is scum, we want to force him to spit out as much information as early as possible to make him slip up. If you believe DOS is town, then we should have him wait to catch others. Given that your order of claiming seemingly suggests you believe DOS is likely to be scum, unless you have good reason to believe his claim, you should make him choose night actions early. So I'll repeat this again, do you think we have three information gathering roles plus whatever you think about Fritzler in an 18 person game?

I went back to my claim post because I had listed the roles to that point for easier analysis. The answer is no, I doubt the existance of a 3rd information role, for reasons I listed back then, and yes DOS is on any scum list I can devise. So I'll change my decision.

DOS, please give your night choices before the next claim.

[Ectomancer]

As was pointed out to me, we should get everything up front and move along. I'll admit I'm not the sharpest here as the game is much longer than any I've been a part of, and also more complex because it is also the largest number of players I've played, along with roles that I'm only seeing in action now. What I'm doing is trying to stay open minded and make the best decision based off of the arguments for one option or another. So, if you think that I make the best non-partial decider here, that is ok with me, I'm fine with making a decision, but I could use other opinions and thoughts here to help me make that decision.

[Ectomancer]

<Takes Twito's pillow away from him>

[Ectomancer]

That's awesome MBL. Welcome to the game

[Ectomancer]

Twito is either Godfather or town and the role he claimed, but not any other scum role. We need to look elsewhere for the scum roleblocker. Also, is Twito in his boost, or block phase tonight?

[Ectomancer]

Actually I researched my own question. He is supposedly on his boost phase tonight. That means he should be able to boost our vig, or our cop past a roleblock from scum. Of course, it's a random choice because if you choose wrong, the scum could kill the boosted player and block the other. We cant choose the Vig's target, because then scum doesnt know whether to kill him or not. Vig might be picking town, might be picking scum, we dont want scum to know for sure which it is.

[Ectomancer]

Hmm, I should be voting DOS as well.

vote DOS

[Ectomancer]

I think this only increases the percentage on DOS being scum.

[Ectomancer]

Nice job Thok!

Thanks for the game Glork, I enjoyed it for certain

[Ectomancer]

Yes, I will say that Ecto really blew this game open with his early game theory. At that point, I felt that a scum win was quite the long shot even though neither Thesp nor I seemed to be on anyone's suspicion list at the time.

I had to go back and look to see where you were talking about exactly. That's pretty funny. Post 1165 had the 3 remaining scum, plus the SK in a narrow list of 5, and what did I do? Vote Kison