Board Games Mafia -- Game Over!

[Glork]

Day Two: The First Vote Count:

Kison 5 (IH, Cogito Ergo Sum, DragonsofSummer, Thesp, Ectomancer)
Twito 2 (Raging Rabbit, Kison)

16 alive, 9 to lynch.

[HackerHuck]

Welcome back Zindaras, your absence day one was noted. Interesting back and forth with CES, but your dissertation called him out for doing exactly what you did. I'm also surprised by CES' reaction, since I've never seen him quuite so defensive before.

508 and 510 look bad.

I disagree. Post 510 is one of the most pro-town posts in the whole Twito/RR debate.


The more I think about it, Rabbit's claim seems reasonable - I think it's very unlikely he even knows what Cranium is and it makes sense as an investigative role. However, if there's a mafia roleblocker out there (as he claims) he's about as good to us as any other townie. I'm willing to give him some more time.

I'm not ready to jump on the Kison wagon yet. My concerns with his behaviour are that he claims Rabbit was strongly defending Livingod. From everything I read, Rabbit felt quite strongly all along that Livingod was scum, but he felt the wagon on Livingod was scummy. The way he pressured Rabbit into voting Livingod was also not pro-town. After all that badgering, Rabbit had no choice but to vote, so it really proved nothing. I also don't like his case on Twito. He's using the either or with Rabbit and Twito and leans toward Twito since he's the one that pushed the hardest for the Livingod lynch. Looking at yesterday's posts, the only mention of Twito was

Tomorrow we can see about Twito.

I'd like Kison to give us three concise reasons why Twito might be scum.

Rabbit, why do you seem so unconcerned with the way Kison coerced you into voting for Livingod?

Hmmm. After rereading this post, I'll will keep this wagon moving.

Vote: Kison

Twito - you better not vote me for this...

[Battle Mage]

ive gotta say, the people on the Kison wagon look bloody opportunistic. I'm also surprised that no1 has questioned RR's dubious cop claim.
I will now.

Vote:RR

[Zindaras]

I'm liking Zindaras for the most part here. I do disagree with this...

You are not right because you are a Cop or a Mason. Testing a Cop is done by lynching someone he investigated.

Actually, testing a cop is done by looking at the dead cop's epitaph in the first post after they're nightkilled. Scum rarely fake cop, and when they do, they're usually figured by the mid-end of the game.

Oh, heh. Well, I was mainly talking about the Cop pushing for specific lynches.

Welcome back Zindaras, your absence day one was noted. Interesting back and forth with CES, but your dissertation called him out for doing exactly what you did.

Yes. I know. I expect others to call me out for lurking, too, but if they don't, that's their problem. You can't expect me to say "Hey, I lurked so I'm scummy".

I told him that in his current situation, at the time, with hardly anyone buying his theories, that he'd have just as hard of a time convincing people to lynch Twito than he would the next day, regardless of the Livingod lynch result. However, he, and many others(myself included) were expecting to see Livingod come up as scum. However, he did not. Although it debunked his Twito/Livingod theory, it does not debunk his original theory nor does it remove the scumminess of Twito's posts.

Yes, manipulating RR into voting livingod.

At the time, it looked EXTREMELY odd having Raging Rabbit defend Livingod so defiantly, that it was almost insane to think that with his own scummy posts that he would not turn up scum. Basically, once he came up with his theory that both Livingod and Twito were working together, I pretty much dared him to back up his claim.

Again, yes, manipulation.

1) Raging Rabbit could have refused, and still gone after Twito. Had he chosen this path, with Livingod already near lynching point, it would further incriminate RR to have him name Livingod scum and not do anything about it.

Rabbit's idea was, if I remember correctly, that livingod would be scummier if Twito came up scum. In that logic, the only good townie move is to lynch Twito first. In fact, it is always the only good townie move to vote the scummiest player.

2) Raging Rabbit could have gone after Livingod & he turned up scum. This would have backed up his theory that both Livingod & Twito were working together. However, it also shows that Raging Rabbit is not mafia because he placed the hammered vote.

WIFOM. livingod was already dead. There was no way in hell he was going to survive Day One at that point. If RR was scum, he'd actually have been better off hammering his buddy.

3) Raging Rabbit could have gone after Livingod & he turned up town. This is what happened. I found this to be the most neutralizing result, however, it shows that his initial reaction to the Livingod bandwagon was correct. The level of defiance that he showed for a townie is more than I'd ever expect from a mafia member.

I find this amusing, especially in the light of 2. In 2, Rabby isn't scum because he hammered, in 3 he isn't because he defended him. But this reasoning could easily be reversed. In 2, Rabby is scum because he defended a buddy-lynch, in 3 he's scum because he hammered.

You're taking the picture, and in both 2 and 3 you cut out the piece that you like from the picture.

So sure, I may have "manipulated" Raging Rabbit, but it was not to pick off a townie as you seem to suspect. It was instead to gain more insight on Raging Rabbit & Twito while, as I had hoped, pick off Livingod who looked extremely scummy(as you also admit) based on his posts.

Manipulation isn't a thing town should do, especially not like that.

All in all, Kison, I find your defense quite weak. I'm going to wait this out a bit first, though, as I feel the wagon has picked up a bit too much steam at the moment.

[Zindaras]

ive gotta say, the people on the Kison wagon look bloody opportunistic. I'm also surprised that no1 has questioned RR's dubious cop claim.
I will now.

Vote:RR

Why is Rabby's Cop claim dubious?

[Thesp]

Twito - you better not vote me for this...

This is an odd thing to say.

ive gotta say, the people on the Kison wagon look bloody opportunistic. I'm also surprised that no1 has questioned RR's dubious cop claim.

It's not worth lynching RR today. If he's still around D4-5 it's worth looking at.

I'm going to wait this out a bit first, though, as I feel the wagon has picked up a bit too much steam at the moment.

Wus. Choo-choo, all aboard!

[Ectomancer]

ive gotta say, the people on the Kison wagon look bloody opportunistic. I'm also surprised that no1 has questioned RR's dubious cop claim.
I will now.

Vote:RR

I havent forgotten about you Battlemage. But out of you and Kison, you are currently the weaker case. That quote coming from you actually makes me lend

more

credence to RR's claim, not less, especially since at least a couple of us have already expressed our doubt about RR's claim.

[Battle Mage]

it is scum who express doubts about their buddies, but they cannot produce the vote. I just think the claim is dubious seeing as he has had opportunity to back it up with evidence, but has failed to do so.

ive gotta say, the people on the Kison wagon look bloody opportunistic. I'm also surprised that no1 has questioned RR's dubious cop claim.
I will now.

Vote:RR

I havent forgotten about you Battlemage. But out of you and Kison, you are currently the weaker case. That quote coming from you actually makes me lend

more

credence to RR's claim, not less, especially since at least a couple of us have already expressed our doubt about RR's claim.

[Ectomancer]

The claim is dubious. But I have to ask myself why someone who I feel is scummy would vote for him. One reason would be distancing or bussing if RR is scum, the other would be that he really could be a cop and scum would love to see him lynched to free up a roleblocker for someone else. From the situation at hand, Im leaning towards the latter because I cant see the advantage for scum to lynch RR right now if he were scum. On the other hand, if RR is town, you dont know who the Doc might be, so you cant even consider a NK on RR until you find him. Therefore, scums only play will have to be to lynch RR until the Doc is found. Lynching RR is not good for the town until we get some more facts at hand. Take all those statements together, and you can see why I felt your statement added credibility to RR's claim.
Also, what was the opportunity to produce evidence? His claim would have made him the obvious target for a roleblock. He had no investigation prior to that. His problem now is he is a lame duck cop as long as a roleblocker is out there, which is why he really should not have claimed in the first place.

This is yet another reason to add to a

FOS: Battle Mage

[IH]

RR's claim had such horrible timing, that it made no sense as town to give it away, unless they wanted to get a quick lynch, and needed something to put some more oomph behind his case.

Kison's logic when replying to my post has made me happy with my vote.

[Kison]

Tomorrow we can see about Twito.

I'm failing to see how this is holds any significance. My agreement to reconsider the Twito case in light of new events the next day is hardly a scum-tell.

I'm not going to go in depth yet again about my reasons for voting for Twito, as I feel I've made more points for why I did it than everyone else has about denouncing my claims as scummy. If you all want to actually read what I've said and bring up some questions based on it, then I'd gladly clarify things. However, again, I'm not going to waste my time when everyone seems to hardly reference what I've said.

[Ectomancer]

Tomorrow we can see about Twito.

I'm failing to see how this is holds any significance. My agreement to reconsider the Twito case in light of new events the next day is hardly a scum-tell.

I'm not going to go in depth yet again about my reasons for voting for Twito, as I feel I've made more points for why I did it than everyone else has about denouncing my claims as scummy. If you all want to actually read what I've said and bring up some questions based on it, then I'd gladly clarify things. However, again, I'm not going to waste my time when everyone seems to hardly reference what I've said.

Wow, a "poor me, everyone ignores what I say" post. The problem with that is I did reference at least one of your rebuttals, and then Zindaras did a point by point of the rest of them. Are you going to do as you claim everyone else is doing and completely ignore Zindaras' post? He posted it a good 12 hours prior to your post, so you cant claim you missed it.
Next, you reference a quote made by you that HackerHuck brought up in his post and refuse to give him 3 concise reasons why you think Twito is scum. You claim the reason that you wont do it is because nobody addresses what you say, and I already pointed out that Zindaras' post makes that claim a lie.
If you are town, the best thing you can do is defend yourself against the accusations, not make yourself look even worse by refusing to explain your reasoning.

[Kison]

Except I already explained my reasons. The fact that you all want me to claim again is proof enough that you did not read very far into my post.

[HackerHuck]

Twito - you better not vote me for this...

This is an odd thing to say.

Bad Joke. I put the nefarious sixth vote on Kison.

The claim is dubious. But I have to ask myself why someone who I feel is scummy would vote for him. One reason would be distancing or bussing if RR is scum, the other would be that he really could be a cop and scum would love to see him lynched to free up a roleblocker for someone else. From the situation at hand, Im leaning towards the latter because I cant see the advantage for scum to lynch RR right now if he were scum. On the other hand, if RR is town, you dont know who the Doc might be, so you cant even consider a NK on RR until you find him. Therefore, scums only play will have to be to lynch RR until the Doc is found. Lynching RR is not good for the town until we get some more facts at hand. Take all those statements together, and you can see why I felt your statement added credibility to RR's claim.
Also, what was the opportunity to produce evidence? His claim would have made him the obvious target for a roleblock. He had no investigation prior to that. His problem now is he is a lame duck cop as long as a roleblocker is out there, which is why he really should not have claimed in the first place.

This is yet another reason to add to a

FOS: Battle Mage

QFT

Tomorrow we can see about Twito.

I'm failing to see how this is holds any significance. My agreement to reconsider the Twito case in light of new events the next day is hardly a scum-tell.

I'm not going to go in depth yet again about my reasons for voting for Twito, as I feel I've made more points for why I did it than everyone else has about denouncing my claims as scummy. If you all want to actually read what I've said and bring up some questions based on it, then I'd gladly clarify things. However, again, I'm not going to waste my time when everyone seems to hardly reference what I've said.

Maybe you should go back and look at your own posts. What I'm saying is that you never mentioned Twito being suspicious until this morning. At the time you voted for Twito, you suddenly imply that the choice must be between Rabbit and Twito. Why is Twito's behaviour from yesterday suspicious to you now, when it didn't seem suspicious to you yesterday?
Now when pressed, you still never confirmed why you were suspicious of Twito.

So, other than RR's "consistency" going after Twito what reason do you have for voting Twito?

Based on the fact that both RR and Twito looked equally scummy yesterday, but that RR seemed to be more correct based on the lynch result from Livingod(minus his loony theory), I'm going to lean more towards RR being town and Twito being scum.

I'll reword my question to get an actual answer from you. Please give three clear and concise reasons why Twito and his posts are scummy.

[Ectomancer]

@Kison
Ok, I went back to look at things again.
I was sick, so I figured perhaps I missed something, Im human. What I found when I went all the way back to when you replaced in was nothing.

Not even a single oblique attack or reason for considering Twito scum prior to your vote.

Your reasons after voting were addressed by me a couple times. You responded with

paraphrase

"Twito was scummier in his posts than RR". You never explained why Twito's posts were scummier, but are basing your vote on that premise. Once again, can you give 3 reasons why Twito's posts were scummy?
And.... after your vote Zindaras addressed your defense point by point and you have ignored it.

***I got the site exceeded processor limits message and see Hackerhuck posted since then, so please make an allowance for the echoed points.

[Kison]

What I'm saying is that you never mentioned Twito being suspicious until this morning.

I was a replacement and therefore was not around until the very end of day 1. Therefore lack of

direct

vocalization of suspicion towards Twito is very closely related to that. However, I did believe Twito to be suspicious, just not to the extent that I saw Raging Rabbit and Livingod, and therefore focused mainly on Livingod at that time. As you can see, I did mention that I would look into Twito the next day. However, I wanted to see the result of the Livingod lynch first.

You want reasons other than the ones I've stated? Well, let's go look through the thread a little bit...

Doesn't it bother you that Ectomancer is scum and is voting for livingod?
Frustian is not even voting just sitting back lurking.

Unvote
Vote: livingod Chosen for having most votes atm. We need a proper wagon.

1) Assumes Ectomancer is scum
2) Votes for Livingod even though previous assumption that Ectomancer is scum should have been a red flag that Livingod is not scum. In other words, flawed logic.
3) Says his reason for voting for Livingod is that he has the most votes on him(quick-lynch)

The one page later...

Vote:livingod

because he has been getting scummier all game long.

You seem like scum jumping on hot wagon.

Yet he had _just_ hopped on the wagon for the flawed reasoning I had stated above. That is extremely discontinuous.

Nope. If you honestly think livingod's scummy, you have no reason whatsoever to vote DoS for agreeing with you . It's not like he was close to lynch or anything, that was only the 6th vote...

Yes I do that's bullshit. That was 6th vote on hot wagon without reasons provided. Meaning the wagon is on town and DoS is scum or DoS is bussing his buddy.

I'm even more sure about livingod being scum with RR so maybe DoS was right at placing that vote.

I find it ironic how Twito holds the double standard which allows him to jump on a band wagon because Livingod "has the most posts" yet DoS cannot jump on for "not stating his reasons"

That's three, and I didn't even have to go halfway through the thread. I'd get more, but I have to go for now.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Now that we've determined we're lynching Kison, I'm asking the vig to take out Zind.

[DragonsofSummer]

CES are you even sure we have a vig? Only one person died last night, and if we do have a vig that means he only has a limitted number of kills, or can only kill after a certain point.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

If we don't have a vig, we'll just have to lynch him tomorrow. No big deal.

But I would expect Glrok to include a vigilante.

[HackerHuck]

CES are you even sure we have a vig? Only one person died last night, and if we do have a vig that means he only has a limitted number of kills, or can only kill after a certain point.

Craplogic

Only having one kill means nothing. A good vig only kills if he has a good idea who the scum are. We can't even rule out an SK yet either.

I wouldn't take CES' vig assertion any more seriously than Twito's comment from the day before.

[Thesp]

Only having one kill means nothing. A good vig only kills if he has a good idea who the scum are.

This is not necessarily true.

[IH]

Now that we've determined we're lynching Kison, I'm asking the vig to take out Zind.

Why? Other than Zindy called you a lurker?

[Zindaras]

Vigs should always kill, except if there hasn't been any posting so far in the game. Then it's debatable.

[olio]

so you didnt find out anything?
Well i think that could possibly be a town-tell. I mean, surely if RR was scum he would make something up to make himself look useful.

Nah. Not a town tell. Good scum copout though. A little null, but I'm not sure. I still don't buy his claim.

So you think RR is a scum or a townie who has lied?

I think that your wrong about Twito and RR, as they both said Livingod was scum,

Yes, they both

in the end

went after Livingod. However, I think it nicely disproves any scuminess of Raging Rabbit that he pressed so hard to save Livingod. Were he scum, I don't see why he would have done it

to that extent

. Possibly to put on an act, however, I'd think it more likely that he'd have jumped on the band wagon a lot sooner than he did.

Well, if RR is scum, he has you fooled.

vote: Kison

, for manipulation. He's at -2 now.

Vigs shouldn't always kill, but judge on their own if there's somebody scummy enough to kill.

[Zindaras]

Everyone should at least have an idea who they think are town or scum. If a vig thinks some people are town, then he should kill someone not from that group.

Anyway, I think the RR-Twito debate dominated too much of last day. I'm reasonably okay with a Kison lynch, but I do think that we should actually try to get something going today.

Therefore, I'd like everyone to post a nice little list with who they think is scum and who they think is town.

Mine is at the end of my big post on Page 31.