Board Games Mafia -- Game Over!

[Nightfall]

Settlers of Catan, first published in 1995, paved the way for the genre in the United States and outside Europe. It was neither the first "German game" nor the first such game to find an audience outside Germany, but it became much more popular than any of its predecessors. It quickly sold millions of copies in Germany, and in the process brought money and attention to the genre as a whole

HH> Not trying to out guess the mod, but if the scum in this game were all "Eurogames"/"German games" then Setlers would be the perfect game from that group to be a goon in mafia. I think Eurogames are invading our shelfspace. Setlers was the first eurogame to become really popular in outside of europe and sort of lead the way and helped Eurogames expand there area of influence. The Mafia goon role is kind of similar. The goon helps out the mafia by trying to get rid of town members and make it easier for the scum to take over.

[IH]

I'm pretty sure Glork is an experienced enough mod to not put in a breaking strategy for roles, and trying to out guess him is retarded.

[Sefer]

@Thok: While I do believe his claim that he had no win condition until today, I can't help but feel that he would have told us he wins with town no matter what to avoid being lynched (if he wins with scum now, he's not exactly likely to tell us). It does seem more likely that he'd pick someone who actually is town to tell us was town so that suspicion wouldn't go to him on your death, though. I'm just not going to take claims of his at face value without more of an explaination.
In particular: Fritzler, do you say Thok is town because of observation on your part or is it information that was given by your role (when you still had one, now that you claim vanilla)?

@HH, IH: I don't think that considering what might be a scum role and what might be a town role is a bad idea. I'm not saying we should make it the only basis of a decision, I'm just saying we should take all the information we have into account before making a decision. We only have one dead scum, but all the dead town fit a theme the scum didn't. It's already clear that my original theory about who town members are (games popular in America for a long time) can't work if Jalyn is town; I forgot her Cranium claim. Cranium's American, but it's late 90s. Still, scum could be eurogames and town everything else. It does influence my thinking on Kison because, as I stated yesterday, I think he's probably Monopoly but I had no reason to think Monopoly was or was not scum; now I have a reason to think that game isn't scum. Doesn't stop me from looking at the case against him, but does give me more to think about.

[IH]

and I'm saying, Sefer, that it's distracting from more fruitful talk, and until we can see more role names, speculation is pointless at the moment, because Glork is a good enough mod to not make it that broken where a role name is going to tell us that much.

[Thok]

and I'm saying, Sefer, that it's distracting from more fruitful talk, and until we can see more role names, speculation is pointless at the moment, because Glork is a good enough mod to not make it that broken where a role name is going to tell us that much.

The last largish theme game that Glork was significantly involved in was Chrono Trigger (he was backup mod) and there I was able to deduce the flavor of the two scum groups by about day 3, just from knowing some role names. Settlers is a game with a fairly relevant history to it.

We also get some info from seeing various people's reactions to the scum setup possibilities.

[Zindaras]

I don't know which games are "Euro-games" and which games are "America-games". I don't even know if my own game is Euro or American. I'll admit that it could surely be an answer to the question "Who the hell are the scumgames?" but I personally think we should look a little further before deciding on any particular theme.

Are Yahtzee, Scrabble, Pictionary and Candyland all American games?

[Thesp]

Hmm. The other possibility - based on a quick google search of the game, as I've never played it, is that the mafia is based on land aquisition/capitalism games - which would include Monopoly rather than exclude it.

If this was the case, it would probably also include Risk. Any others? Also, what are some of the other European games that might be included, if that theory is correct?

Settlers isn't truly an acquisition/capitalism game (and if that were the theme, there are many better out there, i.e. Union Pacific, Acquire, etc.). It's a building/development game.

Not trying to out guess the mod, but if the scum in this game were all "Eurogames"/"German games" then Setlers would be the perfect game from that group to be a goon in mafia. I think Eurogames are invading our shelfspace. Setlers was the first eurogame to become really popular in outside of europe and sort of lead the way and helped Eurogames expand there area of influence. The Mafia goon role is kind of similar. The goon helps out the mafia by trying to get rid of town members and make it easier for the scum to take over.

The analogy to the mafia goon is quite a stretch here.

Are Yahtzee, Scrabble, Pictionary and Candyland all American games?

Yes, they're all American games. If you'd like some assistance in delineating any information about a game, the BoardGameGeek is likely your most bestest resource.

Ameritrash - http://www.boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Ameritrash
Eurogames - http://www.boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Eurogame

Yahtzee - http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/2243
Scrabble - http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/320
Settlers of Catan - http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/13
Pictionary - http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/2281
Candyland - http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/5048


I'm almost certainly putting my vote on Kison when we think this discussion has been fruitful enough.

[Zindaras]

Okay, I see.

Well, with this whole theory out there, I feel that it is necessary to claim. For if it is true, then I would surely die the coming night.

I am Masons with IH. I am Axis&Allies, he is Risk. Innocence isn't guaranteed, which is why I'm claiming.

[Glork]

Day Three: The First Vote Count:

Kison 3 (IH, Jalyn, DragonsofSummer)
Twito 1 (Kison)

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

[Thok]

Okay, I see.

Well, with this whole theory out there, I feel that it is necessary to claim. For if it is true, then I would surely die the coming night.

I am Masons with IH. I am Axis&Allies, he is Risk. Innocence isn't guaranteed, which is why I'm claiming.

Curious. What is your source for IH's name (i.e. did you hear it from Glork or from IH)?

I don't think Glork would do the scum mason thing.

[Zindaras]

It's in my role PM.

[Kison]

Why do you say that innocence is not guaranteed? Is it because the role does not specify that IH is innocent, or because the role specifically states that "your partner may or may not be innocent"?

[Nightfall]

I'm willing to believe that they are both town.

[Nightfall]

Q: Did anyone recieve a message from Logicticus when he was still alive?

[HackerHuck]

@HH, IH: I don't think that considering what might be a scum role and what might be a town role is a bad idea. I'm not saying we should make it the only basis of a decision, I'm just saying we should take all the information we have into account before making a decision. We only have one dead scum, but all the dead town fit a theme the scum didn't. It's already clear that my original theory about who town members are (games popular in America for a long time) can't work if Jalyn is town; I forgot her Cranium claim. Cranium's American, but it's late 90s. Still, scum could be eurogames and town everything else. It does influence my thinking on Kison because, as I stated yesterday, I think he's probably Monopoly but I had no reason to think Monopoly was or was not scum; now I have a reason to think that game isn't scum. Doesn't stop me from looking at the case against him, but does give me more to think about.

What are the odds that someone will claim a "Euro-Game" now?

Apparently not good...

Okay, I see.

Well, with this whole theory out there, I feel that it is necessary to claim. For if it is true, then I would surely die the coming night.

I am Masons with IH. I am Axis&Allies, he is Risk. Innocence isn't guaranteed, which is why I'm claiming.

Zindy, I don't get why you claimed nor do I get why you would die the following night.


I must curse Thesp for posting those links. I just spent the last 90 minutes perusing that site.

[Ectomancer]

HackerHuck, Im afraid I agree with Zindy after the double kill last night. Anyone who is town and has information must be weighing the benefit of staying quiet vs the possible loss of that information if NK'd. I also believe it is better to reveal right now than risk information being lost.

I wanted to add to my thoughts on RR. Not only do I think it is worthless for the time to lynch him right now, I also think its pointless to protect him from a NK. Right now, it looks like he is being roleblocked.

Holy Flaming FOS: Ectomancer. He looks like he knows way more than he should. He should be vigged tonight.

I told Thesp that I would address this later. There is still a good chance that I wont be NK'd tonight just looking at the numbers, but then again, with 2 people dying last night, I dont think I should wait any longer.

There is one way that I could know for sure that there is a mafia roleblocker, and that is because what I am guessing is a rare event happened on night 1.

I investigated Twito and got an innocent result. You will recall that RR also claimed to have investigated Twito on night 1.

Assuming that really RR/Jalyn is a cop, and got a no result from that investigation, then we have a confirmed mafia roleblocker and they target a single townie.

I'll address next, why I believe there is a 2nd cop: I wasnt real sure with RR, his claim didnt make sense to me, but neither would it make sense if he were scum. What made me believe was when Jalyn name claimed as Cranium. The reason is that my name is Trivial Pursuit and we both investigate roughly the same way. We both dip into our vast knowledge of basically everything to get information on 1 target.
With us having very similiar methods, I believe his claim of Cop.

Next we have, if we believe them, Zindy and IH as Masons. Do we believe them or not? For the sake of this argument I will believe them.

After that we have Fritzler and his claimed confirmation of Thok as a townie. For the sake of argument, I will also believe them. Why I will believe Fritzler is based upon the flavor of this game. Most games are a roll of the dice, outcomes are based on chance. I believe Fritzler was the random roll. Fritzler, I would be interested in exactly what you did last night, if anything at all.

Next we have my 2 investigations. You already know I got an innocent result from Twito. I also found Sefer to be innocent.

The reason I brought this up last, is because by now I have demonstrated a list of town roles claimed, plus the already dead. On the town side, we have:

Doctor
Inventor
Cop1
Cop2
Masons

Random dice roll in Fritz

Now we need to figure out what would counter-balance those claims on mafia side

I've confirmed a mafia roleblocker
I would be amazed and shocked not to find a Godfather.
There should be at least one more good mafia role. Might be Goon if 5 scum.
Probably an SK role, because Im not buying a Vig right now.
Mafia Goon- dead Battle Mage

Ok, so I have, taking everything as fact up to now, which is NOT necessarily true, the following list of possible mafia:

HackerHuck
Thesp
Kison
DOS
Nightfall

Sefer and Twito get their own category

HackerHuck: Feels like town to me. Low on my suspect list
Thesp: Also feels like town. Brought up my discrepency of knowledge openly. Scum should have just NK'd me for that.
Kison: I brought a case for him and only backed off because of his claim. He is a good play for today.

VOTE KISON

DOS: Honestly havent looked deep. However he was never on my "town" list.
Nightfall: See DOS

Now to Twito and Sefer. Obviously they are here because I am 95% certain that there is a Godfather. I am leaning towards Twito for several reason. He is a lynch for later, no time soon. Just remember what I've said down the road.

So, I think that sums it up. I think the rest of the town can take that knowledge and help to narrow down that list with what they know. Also (appealing to higher authority), look over my assessment and point out the flaws. I still believe that now was the right time for me to also claim Cop.

[Thok]

Ectomancer-what info did Glork give you about your sanity?

[Ectomancer]

I considered that possibility, my PM gives no indication of doubt in my role or sanity. My guess is that should either I or Jalyn end up being insane or another variation of cop, that it would be a minus on the required scum balancing roles.

[Kison]

My guess is that should either I or Jalyn end up being insane or another variation of cop, that it would be a minus on the required scum balancing roles.

Wouldn't that also indicate that perhaps there is no Godfather because one of you may therefore be benefiting scum because of your sanity? I think it's pretty obvious that there's a roleblocker out there. And, in fact, because of your sanity(and scum may know of it based on the results that you've given), they may not even bother killing you during the night. Keep that in mind if you end up surviving until tomorrow.

[Jalyn]

Ectomancer, I'm not positive that you have confirmed a roleblocker. I think that's the simplest explaination, but my role indicates that I try to find out a person's allignment, leaving open the possibility that I could fail. I've been giving some thought to the idea that my non-results could be role based rather than an outside hinderance.

I'm wondering if it makes sense for me to try the same person I investigated last night tonight and see if repeated attempts make a difference?

[Ectomancer]

@Kison and Jalyn
I would consider the possibility of a weaker or insane cop role, but I still believe it would not counter-balance the scum roles enough.
My feeling, is that we have a roleblocker and an SK

for sure

.
We probably have a Godfather role as well.

@Jalyn
Occam's razor, as well as the concept KISS, suggest that the result of 2 simultaneous investigations on the same target getting the results we did is that a roleblocker exists. Couple that with the assumed town roles and it

demands

a counterbalancing role.

[IH]

.....

I'd be more likely to believe one of you is zero percent, or one of you has their sanity messed up.

I'd say it would be cranium who would have their sanity messed around with, just because Trivial pursuit deals with facts, while Cranium is a different kind of game, isn;t it?

[Ectomancer]

I dont agree with your assessement IH. It doesnt make sense for a sanity problem for Cranium to take the role of being a no result every turn. RR didnt have to claim, so consider yourself in the role of a non-claimed cop. Wouldnt you expect something other than no result?
I personally do not doubt my sanity, just the results because I suspect a godfather.

[Thok]

Ecto, if you are sane, it's highly doubtful Twito is a godfather. RR basically telegraphed who his night choice was going to be; it would make little sense for scum to roleblock a cop who was known to be investigating an investigation immune godfather.

[HackerHuck]

.....

I'd be more likely to believe one of you is zero percent, or one of you has their sanity messed up.

I'd say it would be cranium who would have their sanity messed around with, just because Trivial pursuit deals with facts, while Cranium is a different kind of game, isn;t it?

I haven't seen that term before. By zero percent do you mean that you don't think Jalyn would ever get a result?

At this point, I don't think it really matters whether there's a roleblocker or their sanity is messed up. Aside from the fact I'm on it, it's a good place to start. Given Twito's actions, it's pretty unlikely that both he and Sefer are scum. With Thok's point, that means you're likely sane, or you switch sanity (I can't remember the term for that).

I would also agree that now's the time to divulge any messages. If Ecty's right, the list of cleared people are in a bit of danger this evening and those on the other list are in danger of being lynched today or tomorrow.