NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)

[geists]

Hi

V/laish for a week

I'll let C do the steering for now, I guess

VOTE:casso

So you think we should leave SSK for later?

"doesn't preclude the possibility" does not equal "scum".

You're not making a case. You're yelling I'M RIGHT LYNCH HIM.

Plz come up with something more convincing than this

if goodmorning came up with a case on casso, would it convince you? because other people have brought up points against casso and you've shrugged them off saying you still think he's town for reasons you can't really (or don't want to) explain

That's an interesting characterization of my stance.

do you think domo was just way off base in all the points he brought up about casso?

He made points about a lot of players.

I thought his VCA of the casso and SSK wagons without flips was pretty strange. I agreed with some of his reads.

I dunno. I don't think I'm beyond reason here. I also don't think I'll be around all that much longer, and my stance won't matter so much after that, unfortunately.

[geists]

Ffery. There was a good case on casso made by GM, and I for one am quite trusting it, and as for mara, well, SHE made that vote, not me.

And you're thinking that we should lynch casso rather than SSK today?

[geists]

Actually I just ISO'd you to find it, since

Sakura, you clearly read that and are aware of ffery's reactions to being told what to do with meta/trajectories so I don't really understand your 3091.

I am not aware exactly how/when she does vote trajectories, In that game she said she only does it when replacing in, but did it anyway, at that point I was conf town so I thought that's why she did it, then it turned out she was scum, and also that was the only game i've had to ask her to do the trajectory analysis, so I thought not doing it on her own was part of her scum game.

You were in Marketplace: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p5400667

And F-16 already posted the link to the posts in the AA game where I said I would use the tools and theory I thought appropriate to that game, not whatever behaviors somebody expected of me to call me town, including trajectory analysis.

It's the only game where you've asked me at all, despite a number of games we've played where I didn't do it.

If this really is something you consider one of my tells, then all I can ask is how the hell have you've managed to townread me in some of our other games? Because you've got precisely two games where I did any sort of analysis that could be called "trajectory analysys". And in only one of those games was it a voluntary effort.

I can see that when you don't call me out about it, your alignment varies. I can recall only one data point where you did call me out prior to this.

[geists]

Someone who has played with Bert more than once, is he any good at faking the demeanor at all? Otherwise I'm just about ready to call him town [this is based on everything from his entry to page 100, not just up to this point].

I can fake that demeanor, and if you're trying to read me, that is not what you look for. I'm saying this now since you are very misguided about how to read me. I'm giving you a chance to try looking at this from a different light in case you are town. If you don't, I'll just sit content with a good gut scumread on you

currently, I think you are scum from your way of "sorting" me as if you're getting ready to vote me if the tide turns my way

it's the shady positioning. the "you make me want to call you town, but then you say weird things that are shooting yourself in the foot." That's the type of thing Ffery-scum says when fencesitting about me.

Not only when I'm scum. Depending on your play, I sometimes either waffle or misread you entirely when I'm town. Still smarting from my short stint in BRO's game.

[geists]

This is a story about

S

teak

S

auce

K

irby (as in MafiaSSK)

Spoiler: SSK

. Now, SSK really liked cheese. So one day he found some cheese on the other side of a

Spoiler: picture.

And so he walked along to the center of the picture, until he ran into an

Spoiler: obstacle.

. It freaked SSK out. It was all big and scary and two headed. And of course when SSK got scared, he'd turn into

Spoiler: cheese

. And so he ate himself.

THE END.

Oh god I remember googling SteakSauceKirby when you told me that's what it meant, but I never saw that picture.

It's terrifying.

[geists]

Every time SSK posts I want to claw my eyes out.

scroll wheel ho!

[geists]

Can we stop voting ssk now so ffery and i can talk? i dont even care if everyone else prod dodges until we're done.

Are you ready to talk?

[geists]

Ok I lied, going to bed soon, tomorrow afternoon-evening is a date, ffery/.

Oh and also light scumread on norlkaz right now.

How about now?

[geists]

SCUMMIEST: Cephrir > Arthur > Norlkaz > zMuffin > Sakura > BRO :TOWNIEST

Generic, Pieguyn, and Bert read very town and KBBQ and Casso get a pass for today. The others are confirmed. So, I'll probably start doing the interaction analysis with SSK starting with Cephrir.

wtf why does Casso get a pass.

Spoiler: He has this

laughed.

Hey Maraca sorry I fell asleep before you replied last night. How is today looking?

[geists]

I'm around.

Let's do something, then.

Who do you want to start with?

[geists]

Looking over the players left alive, I think every single player in the game is very competent. But I'd rather have conftown involved in as many lynches as possible. It is ultimately up to Geists. If they want to be involved in another lynch, I'll support that. If not, that's their choice. I'd like to hear their thoughts about the merits of this proposal.

What makes you think we won't be involved in this lynch? If you mean do we want to leave well-developed reads for future game days, we absolutely will leave our best efforts.

Right now, I'm feeling a little sidelined due to having a different opinion from quite a few players (a majority? I'm not sure.) about Casso/Nacho. And, Nacho's own attitude about those opinions is infectious. I worry that he's not working harder on reads, but he's almost guaranteed to be in the game tomorrow and today is a foregone conclusion.

What is not a foregone conclusion is being able to go through reads with me after today. And I'd like to work with everyone on reads as long as they aren't about cheese. The process itself gives alignment indicative clues sometimes.

[geists]

I'm around.

Let's do something, then.

Who do you want to start with?

Llamarble is the most worrying. I want to start there.

Zero completed games. No experiential meta.

What did you think of F-16's meta?

[geists]

I don't take issue with people scumreading me at this point; if you meant "you're all talk this game therefore you're scum" then that is an okay deduction.

Can we confirm once and for all who MC claimed masons with?
I'm open to a massclaim here; we're clearly already down our two best roles and are going to have to lynch scum today and go it mountainous.

VOTE: Cephrir
For lack of a better way of describing the pattern, he lacks manliness.
Also he has a lot of posts which have "to exist" as a purpose.
And there are lots of little 'yup this is scum's in there.
I actually feel pretty good about this one.

How much is this read informed by ASOIAF?

[geists]

I think my eyebrows just flew so high they detached from my head.

[geists]

Interact with me!

What are your thoughts about the SSK wagon?

[geists]

Interact with me!

What are your thoughts about the SSK wagon?

That it's probably not big enough.

What are your thoughts?

That it's a good wagon, but I don't want the day to end yet.

What did you think of SSK's protect choices?

[geists]

I had to look up who he claimed for today.

With that answer I presume he's actually got a decent chance to not be a Mafia Doc and did target BRO with something. So I'd say BRO is confirmed town unless Mafia flips mafia doc, in which case BRO is who I'd lynch next.
That seems a pretty boring question.

The question was for context. I couldn't tell how well you're plugged into the current game state based on your recent posts.

What are we doing with this day if not lynching Mafia?

Ent Moot apparently.

[geists]

The question was for context. I couldn't tell how well you're plugged into the current game state based on your recent posts.

My recent posts pretty much said 'I'm not plugged in and it's peeving off Nacho, so I'm trying to plug in again' ...but, sure, you have accurately noted that I'm not plugged in as well as I should be, I hope that clarifies things for you.

I've spent a lot of the time in the QT talking about Desp, frankly, and building cases thereupon. I also spent some time telling Nacho how dumb DOMO's case on us was when he asked me for my advice on getting DOMO to chill - as far as I'm aware he didn't post any of my responses whisch were mostly 'DOMO is a raging lackwit and here's why - et al'

He's also filled me in on a few happenings and asked my opinion and I've done a bit of VCA and a pile of sort of mindless growling about how much I hate the game, the playstyle, and a number of the actions as I feel everyone is making the game about four times as big and complicated as it has any right to be at this stage. I also keep encouraging him to just lulzhammer people but he seems opposed to that idea as well, such is my fate.

Ent Moot apparently.

The book or the movie version? Because one made sense and the other really didn't.

Conversation is currently dead because we have no scum flips nor any exciting night actions.
Let's lynch someone and get more night actions and then maybe stuff will get exciting again.
The other option is people can at least come in here and bounce some of their thoughts off me for about two days and then we lynch someone.
I can't think of a third acceptable plan, but am willing to hear it.
Any comments of "use our time" will be met with the derision they deserve.

Book version.

I want to talk reads with players and leave my thoughts in the game for day 4. I think Nati feels the same way.

Have you and Nacho talked about F-16's suggestion to scumhunt elsewhere today and lynch SSK day 4?

[geists]

I thin his theory is that town's supply of best and brightest (I say this with a little irony) will be lowered overnight, so saving the obvscum for tomorrow and all-out scumhunting today could be a better use of more or less confirmed town minds and votes than lynching obvscum today.

[geists]

GiF or Nero?

[geists]

Must be Nero.

[geists]

GiF uses vote tags.

[geists]

This sucks.

[geists]

Nacho, I am scumreading you because your reads are too PC (politically correct). You have the read that you

have

to have in order to not set off alarm bells for players like ffery. There is nothing new and exciting about them.

I seriously hope someone like Regfan replaces in.

You think my read doesn't have solid grounding? You think Thor's appearance was a strategic scum move?

And you think my read will matter to this player list when I'm dead?

[geists]

I think Nacho could be appealing to you specifically trying to outmaneuver your scumhunting of him. Not everyone reads him in the same way and if he knows what you look for, he could manipulate it to make you townread him even while everyone else scumreads him.

I'll take your read under advisement. I'm not sure whether the rest of the playerlist will do it. Nacho is one of the few people that I can rarely read correctly early on. I consider his entire body of work to get a read on him and that'll take a while to develop.

There's no question that Nacho has recently outmaneuvered me in some games. So, I'm cautious. And, I also have a body of work approach to reading him, which means that my read is constantly being reevaluated.

I do find, though, that there's a default-scum-read sentiment around him, especially in large games, that isn't necessarily correct but does gain a head of steam as the game progresses. And I find sometimes that I wind up fighting that sentiment more and more aggressively as the game days pass. NY165, NY164 are good examples. The Dr Who game is another example, though of a different sort, where I went from null to scum and then the read did a summersault based on one short interaction on day 2.

When I along with most of the players aren't scumreading him seems to be the games where he's scum.

I'll have to go back and look at Tammy's day 1 take.
]

[geists]

Also, I'd kinda like your thoughts about Thor, F-16.

blah

[geists]

One of things I look for is whether he is leading lynches on scum. In BB:HoH mafia, I had an easy townread on his hydra (although the read was heavily influenced by Tammy who was a lot more transparent). Mostly, it was because he had two scum pegged and pushed for their "eviction" (essentially a lynch, see the game mechanics). It worries me that he doesn't have a single strong scumread or pushed the lynches of any scum so far. I'll know he is town once he lynches multiple scum. He did make the SSK push and that alleviates my doubts somewhat but I haven't seen much else since then in the way of leading scum lynches.

You have to keep in mind that he'll bus in a heartbeat as scum.

[geists]

Domo was a gunsmith, so we think the Doc claim is bogus, and SSK spent most of this game day trolling.

Domo gunsmithed me on night 1 and got back "no gun". So we're town or we're mafia doc.

Town had a vig, lynched on day 1.

[geists]

Also, I'd kinda like your thoughts about Thor, F-16.

blah

What are your thoughts about Thor? Did you feel you noticed anything alignment relevant?

I thought that coming in and making posts that were pretty disconnected from the current game state was more likely to come from town than from scum. Other than that, I didn't see anything really alignment relevant.

[geists]

I don't agree that disconnected Thor posts are necessarily town. Thor tries to do as scum what he would do as town and is generally very good at it. I think that if he fell behind, he would act the same way regardless of alignment.

A scum hydra partner has a hard time remaining totally disconnected. I agree that Thor could put up a pretty good clueless act if he wanted to.

But, there are tone and timing things that are hard to pull off as scum.

Nacho has been consistently pulling them off.

It's one of the things I find frustrating in case-building, especially town-case-building. You can say "doing x, y, z looks town". And someone is going to always come back with "player-A can do that as scum". But, the thing is, it's not just the doing of x, y z. It's the fluidity, the spontaneity, the reactiveness, the interactiveness, the tone, what nati means by tempo. And keeping all of those balls in the air isn't easy and is in fact impossible to maintain constantly.

And that's how you differentiate town from scum Nacho. He can absolutely do the quintessential town-Nacho thing in isolation. He did that in bork's touhou game and instantly turned my null read to a town read. So, a quintessential town-Nacho thing or 10 don't make a town read any more.

[geists]

Also, how sure are you about your read on KBBQ?

I feel pretty good about it. I want to talk with GiF about my reads before the day ends.

[geists]

No. Tone and timing have always been there, but I've been unduly swayed sometimes by single really solid interactions in a sea of meh. or a sea of non-presence.

[geists]

He's claimed he protected us (geists) on night 14457 and BROseidon on night 2. 5636

[geists]

This reminds me of your oh-so-clueless entrance to the asoiaf game.

[geists]

go write some handwritten notes about it.

[geists]

Have you ISO'd SSK?

[geists]

This reminds me of your oh-so-clueless entrance to the asoiaf game.

Which game is that?

FFS. FARADAY'S UPICK.

As for Isoing SSK, I went until he doctor point and compared. I focused on Day 1.

If you're town then stop whatever you're doing and read his whole fucking ISO. It will save you a lot of time.

SSK's wagon is staying in the low numbers so there's no chance of this game day ending before all of town is ready for that to happen.

[geists]

Why?

Do you think otherwise?

[geists]

I do, which is why I'd like to hear the logic for a town read so I can compare/contrast.

Why, what's your take on him?

I told him what concerned me about his play earlier. His response - which boiled down to large games being too unwieldy to play the way he plays games with smaller player lists - does make sense to me. I developed my playstyle in a very different environment - playing mostly larger games with 16-25 players in a very short game-day timeframe - 12 to 24 hours. I relied entirely on experiential meta (and a really good memory for prior game details) and gut reactions to posts. Actually going back to a prior game and confirming my memory was infrequent. I usually fall back on that playstyle during the early days of large MS games, with some meta research on the side to prop up my impressions of players I don't know well.

I also remembered how little he was able to contribute to the game progression in the hunterxhunterx game. He's done a ton more here.

His read of you/thor really hinges on Thor and to some extent Thor putting that vote down on him when you had expressed a pretty solid townread. It's less objective than what I associate with his play, but I think something like that would have focused the hell out of my attention, too. I'd deal with it a little differently.

[geists]

I do, which is why I'd like to hear the logic for a town read so I can compare/contrast.

Why, what's your take on him?

I told him what concerned me about his play earlier. His response - which boiled down to large games being too unwieldy to play the way he plays games with smaller player lists - does make sense to me. I developed my playstyle in a very different environment - playing mostly larger games with 16-25 players in a very short game-day timeframe - 12 to 24 hours. I relied entirely on experiential meta (and a really good memory for prior game details) and gut reactions to posts. Actually going back to a prior game and confirming my memory was infrequent. I usually fall back on that playstyle during the early days of large MS games, with some meta research on the side to prop up my impressions of players I don't know well.

I also remembered how little he was able to contribute to the game progression in the hunterxhunterx game. He's done a ton more here.

His read of you/thor really hinges on Thor and to some extent Thor putting that vote down on him when you had expressed a pretty solid townread. It's less objective than what I associate with his play, but I think something like that would have focused the hell out of my attention, too. I'd deal with it a little differently.

[geists]

I do, which is why I'd like to hear the logic for a town read so I can compare/contrast.

Why, what's your take on him?

I told him what concerned me about his play earlier. His response - which boiled down to large games being too unwieldy to play the way he plays games with smaller player lists - does make sense to me. I developed my playstyle in a very different environment - playing mostly larger games with 16-25 players in a very short game-day timeframe - 12 to 24 hours. I relied entirely on experiential meta (and a really good memory for prior game details) and gut reactions to posts. Actually going back to a prior game and confirming my memory was infrequent. I usually fall back on that playstyle during the early days of large MS games, with some meta research on the side to prop up my impressions of players I don't know well.

I also remembered how little he was able to contribute to the game progression in the hunterxhunterx game. He's done a ton more here.

His read of you/thor really hinges on Thor and to some extent Thor putting that vote down on him when you had expressed a pretty solid townread. It's less objective than what I associate with his play, but I think something like that would have focused the hell out of my attention, too. I'd deal with it a little differently.

[geists]

wow. triple post.

[geists]

@Everyone, who are the 3 most likely scum in this group?

Casso the King of Seals

pieguyn

BROseidon
Norlkaz

Ser Arthur Dayne

zMuffinMan

Titus

There, I gave you 3 levels of strength in reads.

I think Mafia's flip will also clarify the BRO slot pretty well.

How do you feel about Norlkaz?

[geists]

His read of you/thor really hinges on Thor and to some extent Thor putting that vote down on him when you had expressed a pretty solid townread. It's less objective than what I associate with his play, but I think something like that would have focused the hell out of my attention, too. I'd deal with it a little differently.

Well, first off you are talking with Thor right now - Nacho had a few posts in there last night but the last two days of posting have been almost exclusively me.

Also, he is clearly OMGUSing there, and further than that ignoring my stated reasons for the vote while just whining that we placed it without actually sweating the logic or the reasoning. That he has issues with bigger games curls my toes a bit that he doesn't spot my issues at that stage.

That said, your opinion on the Mason issue I raised with him? I can forgive his bad case on us, I get bad cases made on me all the time and most are quite worse than what he is doing here which is really just complaining that I'm anti-town while acting like it's a scumtell, but his Mason question really bugs me, and if that were cleared up my issue with the slot would dramatically shift. I just can't figure out why he would want that answered.

So you and Nacho haven't talked about what that's about?

Mafia Pinnipedum, the just-completed Mini game modded by Vi/Tierce.

Town Mason penguin_alien was neighborized by scum_Cabd. Her mason partner was vig-killed on night 1. She was so convinced cabd was town in their QT discussions that she wound up crumbing (and later let Cabd claim outright) that he was a third mason, not a neighbor. Then she was night killed.

Being essentially conftown let him lead town to two more mislynches and a scum win.

[geists]

So you and Nacho haven't talked about what that's about?

Here is the grand total of everything Nacho has said in our QT since Falcon asked that question;

"Also, let's have a little Ent Moot of our own. I plan to do some rereading myself! "

So...no, we haven't discussed it.
And dear gawd that sounds like terrible play from a number of people.

Looking at the playerlist I don't see Falcon there. What makes you so sure that game is why he asked that question?

Timing and context. And the fact that I know he follows games he's not playing, especially if there are players of interest due to his reads in games he is playing.

He watched Newbie 1436 because I was playing that one during the Harry Potter mini game we were playing.

[geists]

Timing and context. And the fact that I know he follows games he's not playing, especially if there are players of interest due to his reads in games he is playing.

This feels like projection - especially since I called him out on doing it and he didn't bring this up himself as an answer, because it would have been a very reasonable answer if that's what he had been doing, instead he didn't even respond to my issue.

Talk to Nacho.

[geists]

not all players are as good at manipulating their meta as you, Thor. Else there would be no meta-based players.

[geists]

I don't deny the process exists. I just am frustrated by my inability to process it like so many seem to do, and also find their inability to properly explain a supposed process to be annoying (though, frankly, that's probably why the way I use and deal with meta isn't the same as anyone else's)

I'm willing to try sometime, but I go through phases in terms of comprehensibility vs expansion. I'm in a pretty rocky expansion phase atm.

[geists]

@geists: what exactly made your eyebrows fly up re: Bert? I didn't see it although I'm really worn out so I probably missed smth

I don't want to talk about it. I don't want to think about it.

[geists]

The hangup for me was that he asked the Masons, functionally, if there was a third mason and who was it. I can think of reasons that is helpful to scum, but I can't think of any that are helpful to town. Do you think that's me being crazy, him just being silly, or him mining for scumvantage info?

Phoneposting at a brew pub. This can't go wrong.

I interpreted that very differently due to the Pinniped game situation. Demanding confirmation for masons, not neighbors, makes a lot of sense given the other game. And though I'd usually frown at fishing for the number of masons, and I'm not going to ask in this game, I can totally understand wanting that number nailed down in the wake of that game, given one of the masons was a Cabd hydra until last night.

[geists]

I think Zmuffin is scum.

[geists]

i think you could be wrong

I could be. I literally woke up in the middle of the night to post that. And the thought I woke up with was "Cash Cabd". You had no trouble figuring me out in that game. Ever since then, Every game we've played where you haven't been able to develop a read and you've kept me in the unsure or leaning scum group, you've been scum. You were on that trajectory in this game until Domo outed his role and results.

[geists]

Hi proph!

I've always wanted to play with you, I've enjoyed what I read on MTGS.

Although I'm definitely the background head in this hydra.

[geists]

Nah, Magic the Gathering Salvation.

Its quite a few scummers home site and my surrogate home after the demise of Px2.

[geists]

Nero have you done anything townie lately? I haven't read since day start.

[geists]

Oh GIF then have you done anything townie today?

[geists]

Oh GIF then have you done anything townie today?

You see me towning rite now

<3

[geists]

i think you're misremembering things. you were one of my first town reads, but iirc, it had very little to do with your posts and everything to do with posts i identified as nati's. there are some things i remember liking about your play, but it was a read mainly based on nati.

You're right about the misremembering. I had you and desp confused.

Going back through your posts, we have disagreed on tons of stuff in this game.

[geists]

But is it scummy?

loled

[geists]

Also, how sure are you about your read on KBBQ?

I feel pretty good about it. I want to talk with GiF about my reads before the day ends.

Yo

Yeh, so Titus scum? Her posts are reminding me a little of her replace-in to the asoiaf game. I want to have a look at the FEA replace-in, too, though.

[geists]

So what's f-16's read on casso again?

Scum.

What's your read of them?

[geists]

Nacho, Titus got past you in the asoiaf game. What do you see in her opening posts that makes you think this is not scum-Titus?

@Generic

asoiaf: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=31262 (replaced in on page 124)

FEA: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=31053 (replaced in on page 289)

[geists]

I thought Titus was scum for a good portion of the game (all of it?). I don't really have a good read on Titus at the moment, but Cephrir still seemed town.

Nati and I both disagree with you on this. We both have strong scum reads on Titus.

For the rest of the thread, Nati said something that caught my attention in hydra chat last night. He trusts a nacho town read from Mara and Sakura over a nacho scum read from F-16 and GM. I agree, but that's not why we're townreading him.

[geists]

Do you have a scumread on Titus based on her posting?

Yes. I was fencesitty as hell about cephrir.

[geists]

I thought Titus was scum for a good portion of the game (all of it?). I don't really have a good read on Titus at the moment, but Cephrir still seemed town.

Nati and I both disagree with you on this. We both have strong scum reads on Titus.

For the rest of the thread, Nati said something that caught my attention in hydra chat last night. He trusts a nacho town read from Mara and Sakura over a nacho scum read from F-16 and GM. I agree, but that's not why we're townreading him.

I don't really agree with Mara's reasoning for reading Nacho town. My read has weakened somewhat through interactions with Nacho but that is based more on his responses making some sense and addressing all the pent up suspicion I had fairly well. I also strongly disagree with Sakura's read on the Casso slot. It doesn't make that much sense. I must be missing something completely. I'll admit though that I don't agree with GoodMorning's reasons for scumreading them either. What of Mara's and Sakura's reasons for reading Casso town were persuasive? What do you think of zMuffin's, Llamarble's and Pieguyn's take on it?

It's not the reasons really. It's the conviction. They both have a lot of experience playing with Nacho. I remember in the recent Open game of Bros that we played, scum-Mara said something like she'd assume nacho-town because I can read him better than she can. That post alone pinged, but I was already dead with a null-scum read on her left behind in the game. Mara is not going to ever defer a Nacho read to someone else and she's not going to townread him without feeling pretty good about the read. Sakura on the other hand, is more like me - she's been bitten with a bad town read recently. She had Sangres as town in NY 167 so though her reads tend to be gut based and she likes to obscure her actual reasons for her reads so she doesn't give away advantage in future games, feeling this sure coming off a game where she got it wrong gives me some confidence in that read.

I came into this game having misread nacho-scum in two very recent games (Touhou mini and Marketplace) and I was extremely cautious and suspicious in the early-to-mid day 1. The thing that sticks out to me in this game is that you can tell many of his reads aren't confident and it's impacting his stances. That doesn't track with his scum games. In fact it reminds me a lot of his stance on me in the Pinniped game. He had me as likely scum but couldn't nail the read down and wouldn't really act on it without that confidence.

[geists]

ffery, that makes some sense. Is Mara also the type to have gut reads and the obscure her real reasoning by providing other (probably weaker) reasons in-thread to not give away strategic advantages?

Mara's play in general is more opaque and her early posts with reads are often put out there mostly for reaction testing. It's one of the reasons I have trouble reading her sometimes. I think her gut is extremely informed by meta, especially experiential meta.

[geists]

Who did Titus replace?

ceph

[geists]

heh

Sure thing, Gen

SSK
Titus
Prophy
Pie
SAD

that, I feel like is the scum team

herpderp

I feel better about Pie as the game has progressed. Prophy is Bert's slot, right? Why is Bert scum?

[geists]

Geists, you were the first to champion taking our time today and it has certainly seemed productive, what are your thoughts on lynch options for today.

Nati and I still want to lynch SSK today. We'd move to Titus if necessary to secure a lynch. I disagree with Nacho, but am willing to give Titus more time to settle in. Nati and I are both of the opinion Titus is scum, but, town or scum I think she needs to be gone before LYLO and I doubt scum will NK her. I don't say that lightly because I'm not generally the policy-lynching type.

Before we close up shop for the day I want to throw out a nearly-bare reads list and answer questions about it. We'll get that into the thread sometime tomorrow.

[geists]

ffery, did you and Nat get a chance to look over Red Wine and compare with my meta-dive?

Re Ceph? we haven't discussed it.

I reread that game thread a gazillion times on the final day so it's still pretty fresh in my mind.

[geists]

This would be a lot easier, Titus, if you just told us who your partners are.

[geists]

Titus, you're doing that thing you do where you pretend you haven't read the thread and come to really obvious conclusions after we've already given you catch-up summaries.

pls stop

[geists]

What the fuck are you talking about?

I'm talking about that thing you do.

Be glad Cephrir isn't here so he can't ask you for your notes.

<3 Titus

[geists]

This is vague as fuck. If it is obvious SH was scum, why didn't you fight for her to be the deadline wagon? Hmm...no given the amount of ppl townreading SH and her biggest scumreaders are in the graveyard (Tammy and Desp) that's far from obvious.

The call calls for you, not her, today.

[geists]

This is vague as fuck. If it is obvious SH was scum, why didn't you fight for her to be the deadline wagon? Hmm...no given the amount of ppl townreading SH and her biggest scumreaders are in the graveyard (Tammy and Desp) that's far from obvious.

I feel bad about day one, ffery & I were the ones who waded off the SSK lynch.

[geists]

& now he's as gouda as confirmed scum.

[geists]

Geists, speak English!

Yaaar! The only language a pirate speaks be the cold shanties of the sea!

Oops. Wrong hydra.

[geists]

I have to go to class, but we will continue this later, Titus.

[geists]

What the fuck are you talking about?

He's talking about your replace-in to asoiaf, I think.

[geists]

Titus I might stop tunneling you (no promises) if you drop your gawdawful dumb case on KBBQ. If you don't, I'm going to want to lynch you regardless of your alignment.

[geists]

Pie, there's pros and cons to the BBQ case. I am working it out. So yeah, I am not dropping it, but I am not 100% sure KBBQ is scum. I will work it out. I hate being bullied which is what geists is doing.

Why the hell would passed up a jump on the Casso wagon matter? When is that? Casso was never a viable D1 wagon anyway.

This is probably my last day in the game. I watched the asoiaf game in utter disbelief when you replaced into an obvscum slot obvscummed the hell out of your first couple of game days and then made it all the way to LYLO.

Nati's way more confident you're scum than I am. I feel that whether you're scum or not, town is probably going to be in a better position to win if you (and your slot) are gone well before LYLO.

You're welcome to change my opinion. But, it will take considerably more than tunneling one of my stronger town reads and calling the claimed masons scum.

[geists]

And what are your thoughts regarding the differences in Llamarble's behavior here compared with Red Wine? I'd ask about Cephrir but I am assuming we are in agreement there. It wasn't actually hard to read either player as town/scum, especially Llamarble although Cephrir was probably the trickier one.

That was my first game with llamarble and I had no idea how to read him. His reads were more accurate than mine for the most part, but during that game on day 1 and 2 I didn't know what to make of him. He had reads but he wasn't pushing them very hard, and the one hard stance he took (espeonage-town) I really disagreed with after I read through the game projectmatt linked and the case he made for espe-scum. So, I'm in a similar situation - not really understanding the basis for some of his reads, and therefore not trusting them. And his playstyle is different but I don't know if that's playing to his alt-meta. He has a harder edge in this game than he did in Red Wine.

Ceph's play here did not really fit his town meta as I've recently seen it (Dixon Hill, Cash Cabd, NY167), but it's hard to see the fatalistic stuff as fitting his scum-meta. There was one point where I finally flashed onto oh-hell-this-is-scum-Ceph on day 1 of the Red Wine game, and his reaction to my sudden vote didn't have a "you're wrong because I'm town" feel to it, which I did occasionally see flashes of in this game. This post is a good starting point for that exchange.

me

[geists]

@ffery:

thoughts on that? ^ it's p fking obvious that "permission to kill" was permission from his hydra partner and not to actually kill Sakura. so I'm inclined to agree the way she's sticking to it seems forced

Those are my thoughts as well.

also, what's your current read on zmuffin?

I can't do any better than null here. I wish I could. A town zmuffin would be an awesome asset in this game. I'd trade this zmuffin in on the Cash Cabd Rail Tracer in a heartbeat.

[geists]

I lynch on the spot for that.

Exactly!

So my big question is why the fuck did that wagon dissolve? Voila.. More vidence you are scum.

Oh look. Not looking deeper into context yet again.
I'm not surprised.

I am not ignoring, whatever context SH wishes to elaborate on. Frankly, refusal to claim is one of the clearest brightline things there is.

Walking Dead called. Something about Sangres and refusal to claim.

[geists]

what do you think of the associatives between SAD and zmuffin? or do you think that should wait till SAD flips

Did you post them earlier? Link?

[geists]

And what are your thoughts regarding the differences in Llamarble's behavior here compared with Red Wine? I'd ask about Cephrir but I am assuming we are in agreement there. It wasn't actually hard to read either player as town/scum, especially Llamarble although Cephrir was probably the trickier one.

That was my first game with llamarble and I had no idea how to read him. His reads were more accurate than mine for the most part, but during that game on day 1 and 2 I didn't know what to make of him. He had reads but he wasn't pushing them very hard, and the one hard stance he took (espeonage-town) I really disagreed with after I read through the game projectmatt linked and the case he made for espe-scum. So, I'm in a similar situation - not really understanding the basis for some of his reads, and therefore not trusting them. And his playstyle is different but I don't know if that's playing to his alt-meta. He has a harder edge in this game than he did in Red Wine.

Ceph's play here did not really fit his town meta as I've recently seen it (Dixon Hill, Cash Cabd, NY167), but it's hard to see the fatalistic stuff as fitting his scum-meta. There was one point where I finally flashed onto oh-hell-this-is-scum-Ceph on day 1 of the Red Wine game, and his reaction to my sudden vote didn't have a "you're wrong because I'm town" feel to it, which I did occasionally see flashes of in this game. This post is a good starting point for that exchange.

The notable thing about Llamarble's Espeonage defense was that it was based on the wagon composition more than his actual read. He

immediately

caught on Empire/Tammy scumteam and spent a significant amount of time calling them scum. Then they bussed the hell out of Espeonage leading Llamarble to defend him on the basis that the wagon reeked of scum.

votecount

espeonage (4): empire, tammy, projectmatt, bbmolla
fferyllt (4): cabd, cephrir, espeonage, crashtextdummie
Albert B. Rampage (2): katsuki, Llamarble
bbmolla (1): Albert B. Rampage
pjovek (1): chamber
chamber (1): pjovek
katsuki (1): TSO

Not voting (1): fferyllt

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch.

I think we've reached the point where Espeonage's wagon confirms him as town?
Certainly it's a wretched hive of scum and other scum.

although later in post 572, he sort of conf-biases himself into defending Espeonage on his own merits.

The "basis" for his reads was that he believed scum was pushing Espeonage. They were. I think the reason you didn't understand it was that you weren't scumreading Empire + Tammy and using that as the basis for townreading other players. When I was watching it unfold in real time, I was scumreading Empire so I was able to follow his thought process very easily and closely.

This at least makes sense with the way he created "a scumteam based on Pieguy" here because he tends to create an entire vision of who the scum are based on scumreads that he feels incredibly confident about. In Red Wine, it was Tammy and Empire. Here it was Pieguy (although that read seems to have changed). Obviously, the reason I couldn't follow anything he said here was that I am townreading Pieguy really hard so his entire scumteam possibility didn't make sense.

That actually makes me think Norl could be town.

What do you mean by "hard edge?" Can you point out the posts which you felt had a "hard edge?"

Hard edge is probably purely a persona thing. It was things like pushing us to take more of a leadership role when we were embroiled in a ton of disagreements about reads with some of the people we were townreading.

Ok, that makes sense re creating a scum team based on strongest scum reads. I sometimes flash on team/not-team combos, but I tend to think in terms of individual read strengths rather than team-hunt prior to flips.

Nati has some pretty strong concerns about Norl but I think I'll let him talk to you about them when he has a chance.

[geists]

Town

MC Maraca/Ms Marangal
Good Morning
Casso the King of Seals (Nachomamma8 + Thor665)
KoreanBBQ (GuyInFreezer + Nero Cain) (stronger ffery read, lean town for Nati)

Lean Town

Generic
Sakura Hana
pieguyn

Limbo

F-16_Fighting_Falcon (ffery is lean-town, Nati is null)
Bert/Proph - More content from Proph will change this
zMuffinMan (Nati is lean-town, ffery is null)
Ser Arthur Dayne
Norkalz (Nati really doesn't like this version of llamarble. ffery is null and kinda likes that post that just popped up in p-edit)

Scum

BROseidon/Radiant Cowbells (close to null but his below-the-radar play on day 2 scares both of us. ffery is thinking really hard about xenoblade about now.
Ceph/Titus (fell from null-town in part due to argument with generic and in part due to titus entrance and subsequent horrible pushes.)
MafiaSSK - confscum

[geists]

That was my first game with llamarble and I had no idea how to read him. His reads were more accurate than mine for the most part, but during that game on day 1 and 2 I didn't know what to make of him. He had reads but he wasn't pushing them very hard, and the one hard stance he took (espeonage-town) I really disagreed with after I read through the game projectmatt linked and the case he made for espe-scum. So, I'm in a similar situation - not really understanding the basis for some of his reads, and therefore not trusting them. And his playstyle is different but I don't know if that's playing to his alt-meta. He has a harder edge in this game than he did in Red Wine.

Hey, I managed to withdraw my Espeonage lynch veto before we got to the end of D1
F16 is right that there was a decent 'scum are voting him' component.

Today, we're lynching SSK. I've checked a couple times, including just now, and don't disagree with this. I think I got it wrong previously and it will result in a scumflip.
It often takes me a long time to explain myself, and sometimes I just end up backtracking anyway (see original SSK townreasons that had some significant holes).
Generally you will see explanations from me when I have either something particularly interesting or something relatively simple to explain or need to do it to be persuasive.

I can relate to the long-time-explaining-self thing.

[geists]

I am still keeping the "I can read ffery but she can't read me" bragging rights.

ffery's townreading you. Is this a scumclaim?

[geists]

"Lean town?" I figured ffery would have my meta nailed.

Your large-game play doesn't fit my model very well. I've compensated a little, but there's only so far I'll go when the play doesn't fit the map.

Anyways, I obviously don't have a strong townread on Casso. I feel Generic and Pieguyn are a little more obviously town than Casso/KBBQ but I am warming up to KBBQ considerably.

I'd be ok with generic in the top tier but I think Nati has better insight into his play. Pieguyn read has slowly and steadily moved up from my scumpile on day 1.

- Can you describe town and scum things from Bert's slot?

bert's reaction to my goading him about fencesitting on my read basically resulted in a snap-read of town. Objectively some of the stuff he did was anti-town, but it's all stuff he does as both town and scum - particularly the hammer without a claim. People don't have him in the same category as Saki regarding putting people at L-1 but they probably should.

- Why do you lean town on Sakura?

partly convergence of reads over the course of day 2 and 3, when I was keeping some of my reads off the table. partly coming to accept that she might have been so attached to her "ffery-scum-tell" that she glossed over evidence it was flawed in prior games.

- I think BRO-town can be below the radar based on a town game of his I read. I think he would be more focussed and "in the game" as scum and it seems to be his preferred affiliation.

BRO-town can be below the radar, but he takes stances and pushes them, and he pops in and says so quite emphatically when he doesn't like the direction a game takes. When that happens he also gets much more tethered to the game. His primary stance this game was Casso-scum.

[geists]

I can already tell we'll be spinning in our QT grave tomorrow. I'll probably have to stop reading the game.

[geists]

Because SSK is the sure scum bet.

[geists]

I want more thoughts about our reads list before we call curtains. So far, you're the only person who has poked at it.

[geists]

What's up, f-16?

[geists]

how sure are you about Casso town? and what gave you a full townread on him?

I expect him to be lynched in a day or two and I expect everyone to hear the hollow sound of geists' "I told you so" on the flip. That's how sure. As far as "what", it's not any single post or interaction. It's the body of work. It's the way his reads have formed and developed, and it's where we disagree and why. And it's which reads have been hard for him to firm up and why. It's a thought process I can see and follow. There's some other stuff I don't want to talk about because once he knows what new stuff I'm looking for, that stuff

will

show up in his scum game.

what do you think of BRO's replace out? if he was trying to stay under the radar on purpose idk if he'd do that. for me it indicates his inactivity was bc of him legitimately having trouble keeping up with the game. ofc he could still be scum regardless, but just as is he's more town than SAD, zmuffin, and norl IMO

Don't want to talk about this other than to say I disagree with the basic premise.

why did Bert move down to null?

He was making a lot of excuses. It started to worry me.

what does Nati like about zmuffin?

I'll defer to Nati on this one.

[geists]

Oh, I'm supposed to lead this? Lemme check my notes.

[geists]

So like the thing with Norlkaz is that I just don't like his abrasiveness or something. I had nothing specific, I think? A lot of his posting d2 and early d3 was really kinda shit too.

I'll take a look back and see if I can vocalize stuff.

As to muffin, I'm -finally- starting to learn how to read him.

[geists]

OH YEAH I hated his huge post defending SSK even back when he posted it.

I know he later copped to it but it seemed like a bad backtrack.

Then he votes Ceph. The vig diatribe seemed like a kinda pointless tangent, although I know why he feels pumped about that topic(ie being a sick-ass vig in both MTGS games).

[geists]

He was making a lot of excuses. It started to worry me.

is this smth that's specific to Bert? and how good is he at faking that weird all-over-the-place feeling he had at the start of the game?

the excuses? usually he makes some excuses and pulls up his socks and starts towning it up by making his thoughts totally transparent. He was transparent but there was very little game content there - just excuses. I know that he genuinely does struggle in games this size though. He replaced out of the xenogears game because it was too big and too fast and too many people to evaluate effectively the way he goes about forming reads.

If he were still in the game, it wouldn't have taken a whole lot for him to firm the town read back up.

bc I can't read him for shit and originally you had such a strong townread that the direction of paranoia would be reversed if he was scum. so I have a feeling I'll just end up sheeping you on this read.

If I were around for the latter part of the game I'd put a lot of weight on what Proph does.

and you're more sure about Nacho than in imperishable night right? the last thing I need is to let scum nacho win yet another game against me despite pegging him both times =.=

In imperishable night, my read went from null and worried to town as fuck solely on the basis of his reaction to AA. That was a huge mistake. I learned how to recognize town-AA from him and she was doing exactly what he told me to watch for, along with following almost word for word some of the stuff she'd posted in our first game together, where she got wagonned as town. If I'd had more time that game day (and it was my fault I didn't) I would have reconsidered calling him town as fuck over that because there was no way he could have done anything else with me in the game. And considering the whole thing was pretty much orchestrated so they could bus Bro and get us out of the game, too, my read was even more folly-ridden.

That's why I'm stressing this is a body of work read. Am I 100% sure? No. I doubt I'll ever feel that level of sureness again unless I've been townreading him for months - not weeks.

[geists]

the excuses? usually he makes some excuses and pulls up his socks and starts towning it up by making his thoughts totally transparent. He was transparent but there was very little game content there - just excuses. I know that he genuinely does struggle in games this size though. He replaced out of the xenogears game because it was too big and too fast and too many people to evaluate effectively the way he goes about forming reads.

If he were still in the game, it wouldn't have taken a whole lot for him to firm the town read back up.

if this is the only thing giving you reservations about him then I think it's still looking p good. I can completely get having problems in large games (like in marketplace no matter how hard I tried I ended up doing a whole bunch of nothing)

is scum Bert good at faking transparency? I also remember BRO's game where I heard he was really apathetic and it looked like he was trying p hard at the start of the game, and if anything IMO all the excuses are a sign he actually does care. what do you think?

I have a relatively small sample of scum-Bert games, between what I've played and what I've read. None of his scum games have been exactly like the others, but the sincerity and transparency seem hard for him to fake.

Something else that has characterized his recent scum games (the ones I was in) is that I die on night 1 (or maybe my first night in the game). Now that I've said that out loud I wouldn't assume that surviving a night or two in future games indicates he's town.

[geists]

I'd trade this zmuffin in on the Cash Cabd Rail Tracer in a heartbeat.

:/ i spent the entire D1 tunneling town players in that game and D2 onwards i was leveraging a PR result on scum to get better reads. i actually really disliked my play in cash cabd (at least prior to the part where i knew one scum). if you wanna talk about things here, we can talk. i'm in observation mode at the moment but if there are specific reads you want me to talk about, i'll go over them.

You were pushing people, demanding they take stances and clarifying their positions with questions from the get-go. Even with your suspicions wrong, your play provided a lot of data for analyzing other players later in the game.

You differ strongly on the Casso read and there's not much to be gained from rehashing that probably. Which other of my reads do you think are wrong?

[geists]

Oh and whoever said Sangres in Walking Dead, I probably didn't excuse Sangres's excuse for not claiming either. I probably wanted him lynched for a good part of the game. So yeah.

Point being while rules of thumb like this are convenient (especially for scum needing to work up a quick basis for a vote), when applied out of the context of a player's overall play in a game, they are often wrong.

[geists]

Geists, what is your read on Casso? His play suggests town to me but the VCA troubled me a fair amount. What is zMuffin's position?

We posted a full reads list less than 24 hours ago and we've answered several questions about our Casso read since then. If you have something specific to ask, do so. I'm not going to regurgitate a read I've discussed at length.

[geists]

but I want that behavior eliminated as it is very detrimental. People need to claim.

Things like this make it pretty easy for scum to rolefish.

Well if scum keep putting people to L-1, wagon analysis should out them. So yeah, not changing that. If that leaves me prone to the occasional wagon rolefish, so be it.

Yeah it's just awesome that your town-play works so well to advance a scum agenda when you're scum.

[geists]

Make up your damned mind what your stance on me is.

[geists]

People who are probably town:
Me
SH
F16
Geists
Mara?
GM?

IONO:
Pieguy
Generic (Haven't really looked at; slightly sketched out but can he fake his mad?)
SAD (don't remember)
Muffin
BBQ (just did round 1; inconclusive)

Probably a decent number of scum here:
Casso
Prophylaxis
Titus
COWBELL
SSK

But yeah, let's just do SSK. It will probably be easier for me to read for real when an actual choice is being made.

It looks like our reads are converging.

@KBBQ do you guys have thoughts about the reads list I posted yesterday?

[geists]

I have a relatively small sample of scum-Bert games, between what I've played and what I've read. None of his scum games have been exactly like the others, but the sincerity and transparency seem hard for him to fake.

Something else that has characterized his recent scum games (the ones I was in) is that I die on night 1 (or maybe my first night in the game). Now that I've said that out loud I wouldn't assume that surviving a night or two in future games indicates he's town.

do you think he'd be able to fake the way he was acting when he replaced in?

I'm basically in the same position as you. I had a town-as-fuck read on him when he came in and then it's gotten weaker and weaker bc he's not doing anything. but I still wanna call him town bc his replace in seemed town as fuck. but on the other hand what Generic said about Proph is making me hesitate a whole fking lot 0.0

and what are your thoughts on his interactions with Sakura and ATE? does he usually act like that as town?

Bert and I both replaced into this newbie game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 2#p5320762

He was scum.

My impression is that he can't fake the sincerity as scum, but he can throw enough chaos into his gameplay that you don't notice it's missing unless you're looking for it. That seemed to be true of Mala's Castle mini, which I meta'd. I described his play in that game as a burlesque of his town game.

[geists]

@KBBQ do you guys have thoughts about the reads list I posted yesterday?

Why are you asking this? I'll have to iso to find it and get back to you.

Because if we disagree I want to learn why and see if I think I'm wrong or I think you're wrong.

We are a null read to you?

Nope!

[geists]

Town

MC Maraca/Ms Marangal
Good Morning
Casso the King of Seals (Nachomamma8 + Thor665)
KoreanBBQ (GuyInFreezer + Nero Cain) (stronger ffery read, lean town for Nati)

Lean Town

Generic
Sakura Hana
pieguyn

Limbo

F-16_Fighting_Falcon (ffery is lean-town, Nati is null)
Bert/Proph - More content from Proph will change this
zMuffinMan (Nati is lean-town, ffery is null)
Ser Arthur Dayne
Norkalz (Nati really doesn't like this version of llamarble. ffery is null and kinda likes that post that just popped up in p-edit)

Scum

BROseidon/Radiant Cowbells (close to null but his below-the-radar play on day 2 scares both of us. ffery is thinking really hard about xenoblade about now.
Ceph/Titus (fell from null-town in part due to argument with generic and in part due to titus entrance and subsequent horrible pushes.)
MafiaSSK - confscum

Mara/GM, Casso, KKB, Gen, Hana, pie, f-16, Proph, Muffin, SAD, Norl, RC, Titus, SSK<-that would be your list laid out.

Town<<<kbbq, Gen,f-16, geists, Mara/GM, Casso, Pie, muffin, Bro, proph, SAD, Norl, Titus, SSK>>>scum

Our lists seem pretty similar.

Do you think that you and Norl's reads converging makes him town?

My list isn't seriatim so the layout differences are kinda meh.

The one that jumps out to me is that you have RC/Bro more in the null range and I have them in my scumpile. Radiant Cowbells could change that, but not by disappearing.

I'm liking Norl better the last few days.

[geists]

Bert and I both replaced into this newbie game: viewtopic.php?p=5320762#p5320762

He was scum.

My impression is that he can't fake the sincerity as scum, but he can throw enough chaos into his gameplay that you don't notice it's missing unless you're looking for it. That seemed to be true of Mala's Castle mini, which I meta'd. I described his play in that game as a burlesque of his town game.

talk to me about this chaos. his opening seemed really chaotic and p much no one had any idea what the hell he was doing, so do you think that's what's he was doing here?

I'm really undecided bc I think his town game is chaotic too and there were some parts that looked really sincere like 2368 and 2402. what do you think?

actually looking through Bert's ISO I'm relatively certain he's town. if he's scum I'll feel outright trolled

Yes, he's chaotic as town, too. I didn't mean to imply chaotic means scummy.

I'll look at his ISO again, but after the Red Wine game I'm not likely to give a replacement a free town card on the basis of their predecessor. The replacement will have to town it up also.

[geists]

Nacho is there anything you want to talk about before the day ends?

[geists]

Which other of my reads do you think are wrong?

i think the biggest disagreement is i don't think BRO('s slot) is scum. especially if i'm right about casso. your issue with his D2 play is meh considering he was V/LA for a majority of D2. i liked his posting when he was actually around D2 and i had him as a town read for D1 posting.

other than that, the differences seem pretty minor. what's your actual read on sad atm? and what did you like about norlkaz's recent posts?

What about BRO's play seemed town to you?

My SAD read is low end of null, but I basically have zero experiential meta with him. Knowing Tammy's town, I put some credence in her day 1 read of SAD.

[geists]

Korean, because I want to be the one to call SH's bluff. People will race for towncred if I laid it out there. I don't want SH lynched in a race fot towncred but bc she us scum. In fact, too many people wanting to be the hammer ensures SH will not get lynched. That and Sakura is a little harder for me to crack as she isn't crumbing that like I would. Your crumbs are just like I wrote the.

you do know that I'm not you right? So you going "I'D DO THAT SO YOU MUST BE DOING THAT AS WELL!" is p derpy and I agree that its starting to look forced.

Pie was 100% that GIF had given me permission to vote for Hana and

most everyone on this site knows that I use kill and lynch

.

<3

This made me smile, because it reminds me of the first game we played together. I had your use of "kill" as part of my case-wall on you on day 1 of that game.

Spoiler: My beautiful but wrong case wall from another game

Subject: Micro 174 The Half Baked Curse GAME OVER Mage School Win

Sugar Cain initially caught our eye because although they had made a fair number of posts compared to other players, we could see nothing in those posts that reflected a town motivation. Cain comes off almost trollish, and Mara looks uncomfortable to my eye. There is no effort to make this hydra look seamless, which is something I've noticed she takes pride in doing with other hydras, to the point where she gets angry about being addressed by her main name. And in post #57 Mara put down a vote on a pitifully easy lynch candidate, TIP.

So on page 3 we voted them. We thought a vote might snap them into focusing on the game. That's not precisely what happened, but what did happen was not a disappointment.

Post #81 jumps to a conclusion about the reason for our vote, calling it a piggy-back Though a little more sophisticated than the garden variety, this post reeks of OMGUS.

Post #85 comes off...creepy. "I want to kill", not "I want to vote" or "I want to lynch". It's usually a scum mindset that phrases things this way IME

.

Post #90 he reiterates the false reasoning about our vote decision.

We spar for a couple more posts, and then Cain disappears. And we hear nothing from Sugar Cain until nearly 48 hours later.

Post 129 is then made by Mara. The tone of this post is conciliatory. It comes off as a buddying effort to me, and I was the ostensible target, with maybe a little divide and conquer thrown in for good measure. And she moves their vote off us an back onto TIP.

I called Mara on her claim that I was playing to my town meta.

She came back with stuff about subtle meta, claiming that my "paranoia" was familiar from the polygamy game. And yes, I was paranoid in that game. I was playing with a bunch of people for the first time, and I didn't like the nightless game format. In this game, I am not a cloud of free floating paranoia. I am focused right now on one slot that first raised my suspicions, and then did not disappoint once the chase was up.

Post 145 is a jewel. When I first read it, I was mollified...was this townfeel? But no. Sentence by sentence, it is not:

1."why y'all changing your meta." - explained already. It's not "my" meta. I've been compromising my game parameters while I learned site meta and adjusted to a months-long game format, and figured out how to fit the style of play I prefer into this format.

2. "And you never will 'cause you have nothing. On one hand this could be some bullshit reaction test. On the other hand (and what its looking like to me) is you're scum and by saying "I hope people are seeing what we are seeing" and expect another player to claim what they "see" and you'll latch onto it." - purely defense by offence, which has been the case all along. He doesn't want to hear what our case consisted of. he wants to dismiss it sight unseen.

3. "Other than being flat out wrong about our alignment, this is also extremely anti-town for a few reasons. 1.) No townie in their right mind is going to blindly sheep you."" - hoping for a self-fullfilling prophecy?

"I see no reason for a supposed town (with a pre-made case) to not voice their opinion and attempt to convince the town that we should be the days lynch." - every new post he's made is a case on its own. I think he realizes this, and hopes to distract from it by handwaving about the unseen case.

"And the longer you withhold said "reasoning", you hold the game hostage. Which transitions nicely to my second point.
- "holding the game hostage". as though that is even possible while actively participating.
2.) We have 6 days left. The longer you withhold said reasoning the less time that the town has to discuss the case on us and possibly/hopefully on someone else. There's also the fact that early game no lynchs are a bad idea so with holding reasoning and not allowing town to discuss...the closer to dl town will say "fuck it" and lynch willy nilly."

We do not have six days left. At the time this post was made, we had 10 days. This creates a false sense of urgency, in the hopes of getting other players to dismiss our concerns. And, hilariously, this section comes off as though he knows he is talking to a town player and making a plea for reasonableness.

And finally:

"there's also the fact to you seem to be tunneling which is never a good thing."

yes, the last refuge of caught scum. "YOU'RE TUNNELLING ME!!!!!"

- fferyllt

I bolded the part I'm referring to.

[geists]

6483 is goodposting though.

but Fery know knows that kill. It was OUR first game so you didn't know that but Titus and I have played together and EVERYONE (even Gen!) is telling her that she's so off base. Do you think she ignore that more as town or scum?

It's not whether she'd ignore it more. It's whether it comes off as genuine derpitude or tactical derpitude. I've made my opinion clear.

[geists]

I plan to vote tonight. I am hoping for one last reads discussion with Nacho.

[geists]

Sakura please unvote for now. I want to talk with nacho tonight if he's online. Otherwise I'll vote and make it L-1 before I go to sleep.

[geists]

Town

MC Maraca/Ms Marangal
Good Morning
Casso the King of Seals (Nachomamma8 + Thor665)
KoreanBBQ (GuyInFreezer + Nero Cain) (stronger ffery read, lean town for Nati)

Lean Town

Generic
Sakura Hana
pieguyn

Limbo

F-16_Fighting_Falcon (ffery is lean-town, Nati is null)
Bert/Proph - More content from Proph will change this
zMuffinMan (Nati is lean-town, ffery is null)
Ser Arthur Dayne
Norkalz (Nati really doesn't like this version of llamarble. ffery is null and kinda likes that post that just popped up in p-edit)

Scum

BROseidon/Radiant Cowbells (close to null but his below-the-radar play on day 2 scares both of us. ffery is thinking really hard about xenoblade about now.
Ceph/Titus (fell from null-town in part due to argument with generic and in part due to titus entrance and subsequent horrible pushes.)
MafiaSSK - confscum

Mara/GM, Casso, KKB, Gen, Hana, pie, f-16, Proph, Muffin, SAD, Norl, RC, Titus, SSK<-that would be your list laid out.

Town<<<kbbq, Gen,f-16, geists, Mara/GM, Casso, Pie, muffin, Bro, proph, SAD, Norl, Titus, SSK>>>scum

Our lists seem pretty similar.

Do you think that you and Norl's reads converging makes him town?

My list isn't seriatim so the layout differences are kinda meh.

The one that jumps out to me is that you have RC/Bro more in the null range and I have them in my scumpile. Radiant Cowbells could change that, but not by disappearing.

I'm liking Norl better the last few days.

I had posted said list in our QT before I posted it here, he agreed with it so if he has anything different then he can tell you.

Our null group is more along the lines of Casso, Muffin, Pie and anyone to the right is a scumread. I'm thinking along the lines of a 4/16 game. 5/15 is plausible as well. So 3-4 scum in RC, proph, SAD, Norl, Titus.

SSK is scum and we agree that Titus needs to die before lylo. SAD hasn't done like anything today and his vote on SSK could easily be a bus. Proph was Bert and that could go either way. What did you think of 6241? Still don't really like Norl. All those "I'm sorry for getting scumread" and "Hey guys, I'm going to town it up." when I don't really feel like he has. Perhaps it being a Brian Skies slot and the fact he defended conf scum is clouding my judgment. I know this is an alt and I know he's going to play differently but the Llamarble I remember was pretty active so him being fairly lurky doesn't help my opinion. What has he posted recently that made you feel better? And like I said, RC is mainly POE (GIF may have better reasoning) though I do remember him asking me what I felt was a super strange question but you are correct that he's not off to a good start.

You have the pleasure of talking with bourbon-ffery tonight. This could be a more rare occurance than it is, but not by much.

That's the one thing that worries me about Norl, but I kinda wonder if I'm color-blind in that range. Because In the Red Wine game I kept thinking whoa when is llamarble going to solve this game?

And fact is, he did pretty much solve it, but because we differed on one key read I didn't trust his reads.

F-16's description of his approach to groupscum-hunting on the basis of one or two strong town reads makes sense to me. Once in a while a game will fall into that sort of shape for me, but usually I just go after my top scum read and then evaluate based on how that flip falls.

Other than that, I think we mostly agree except for a couple of issues.

Do you guys think Mara/goodmorning could be fakeclaiming and scum? Because that's the only reason I can think of to not have them at the top of the townpile. Mara is making sense to me. GM sometimes makes sense but we're totally, totally at odds about Casso.

[geists]

^^ paragraph 4 should read "on the basis of one or two strong scum reads" instead of town reads.

[geists]

I think Proph is probably scum. I looked through Proph-games and saw that he was more active as town. I saw Generic mention the lurking and I wish you hadn't because if we let him be, we could have a larger sample of evidence to develop a read from. By letting him know that you'll be looking for lurking, it makes it easier for him to change that aspect of it.

Assuming Geists die tonight, Pieguyn, Generic, and KBBQ are solidly in my townbloc and I feel that we can agree on reads as well. Other town: GM, Mara, Sakura. Casso is in no man's land. I am thinking probably 5 scum. 4 with a vig seem too little. So, 4 scum from Norl, Titus, SAD, RC, Muffin, Proph.

Still waiting for

Nachyllt make-up session

. Hopefully it will be entertaining.

Made me laugh.

The make-up happened sometime on day 1. I don't know if the moment of reconciliation actually spawned a post, though. Maybe the one where I yelled at pieguyn for scumreading Nacho after he dismantled a wagon that he started in the first place.

[geists]

Also, F-16 why are goodmorning and mara not in your townbloc?

[geists]

Townbloc = people I can bounce reads off of and agree with.
Other townies = all other people that I think are town.

Doesn't have anything to do with strength of my read.

Sweet! A point of correspondence!

Now I'm going to get paranoid as fuck because I've posted exactly that concept somewhere, somewhen.

[geists]

Can we lynch the claimed scum now?

Always the best from RadiantCowbells.

Varsoon, can you lend me your gun?

[geists]

VOTE: SSK

[geists]

We are.

[geists]

And good hunting!

[geists]

And I believe!

VOTE: Ser Arthur Dayne

[geists]

Hi Nacho.

After SAD who's next?

[geists]

zMuffin, can you join me on Prophy then?

Basically, scum have infiltrated the townreads of the masons.

I'm damn near sure of it. If we don't band together and show that we've got some kickass contributions, the scum will con the masons into lynching us one by one.

So let's lynch Prophy scum, force the popular crowd who had Prophy as a scum to bus and get ourselves a scumlynch?

Name names.

[geists]

There's no way mafia would have attempted to kill Generic last night, and I jailed him for a no kill so let's lynch him now.

I'm having some hella serious thoughts about boys who cry wolf.

[geists]

There's no way mafia would have attempted to kill Generic last night, and I jailed him for a no kill so let's lynch him now.

I'm having some hella serious thoughts about boys who cry wolf.

Shit like this makes NO sense, which is why I think you could be scum.

Both Prophy and Geists back off from this. If RC is lying, we lynch him. It makes sense.

In my last completed game with RC he faked a cop guilty on another player. He happened to be right about the player, but I take an extremely dim view of players who fake guilty results and am extremely fucking cautious with them afterwards. Especially when they flat out tell me they'll do it again in future games.

[geists]

I have never faked a guilty and been wrong.

I am not faking this one, regardless.

VOTE: Radiant Cowbells

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[geists]

And yes I know Generic's scum here.

[geists]

But like I wanna prove to Radiant Cowbells how terrible his play is. Willing enough to lynch our gunsmith, yes.

ITS THE ONLY WAY TO KNOW FOR SURE YOU KNOW

[geists]

muffin help me out here and lynch for justice!

[geists]

Generic, join the lynch of justice!

[geists]

Don't let liars and thieves have their day in court! Even if they are right! Justice for goodmorning! Justice for notscience!

[geists]

@geists - Everyone gets their day in court. s can be scum.

Then let's make this RC's court!

[geists]

STUFFED CRUST GIVE ME YOUR GUN PLS

[geists]

i don't think generic is that dumb - i'm pretty sure he knew it wouldn't clear him

it looked like he was trying to create last-minute WIFOM because he was pretty screwed, and titus's response to it looked townish

He also kept saying Proph was scum on the day prior to that.

Why Titus over Proph, then?

[geists]

Either way, as I said before I wouldn't put it past Gen to bus like that so at least you stay alive.

Nati agrees that Generic's play after RC's claim doesn't at all preclude a bus. I'd like to hear Mara's thoughts on this, because my gut says look elsewhere today.

[geists]

There's no way mafia would have attempted to kill Generic last night, and I jailed him for a no kill so let's lynch him now.

I'm having some hella serious thoughts about boys who cry wolf.

Shit like this makes NO sense, which is why I think you could be scum.

Both Prophy and Geists back off from this. If RC is lying, we lynch him. It makes sense.

In my last completed game with RC he faked a cop guilty on another player. He happened to be right about the player, but I take an extremely dim view of players who fake guilty results and am extremely fucking cautious with them afterwards. Especially when they flat out tell me they'll do it again in future games.

That was the last ffery post of day 4. The rest of what was posted was Nati. He thought generic was scum, but wanted to make a policy statement about RC. I'd probably have voted generic after his counterclaim, but I totally get Nati's stance and admire his mafia principles.

[geists]

Didn't most of that happen while MafiaSSK was still alive?

[geists]

Cephrir, my prior slot holder, pushes for the confscum and that makes me suspicious F16? Are you high or drunk?

I like the coaching theory even with daytalk. Scum have to interact with each other at some point. Helping scumbuddies diffuse suspicions is good. Also the presence of daytalk is part of the reason I cannot clear KBBQ.

GM, Generic self-hammered before we'll ever know if that was true.

Piegyn, your townblock needs serious work if Bert was in it prior to Prophy replacing in. His posting has sucked compared to his town games. Bert's behavior sucked.

1) I said you were suspicious because Cephrir might have let slip insider information about MafiaSSK being a scum PR, not because he pushed for the lynch of a conf-scum.

2) Why do you assume that I am either high or drunk as opposed to scum? The last game we played together, I posted an intense meta-dive of you to conclude that you were town. I think you'd expect me to read you correctly if you were town. I am scumreading you based on meta here. Your lack of paranoia that I am scum twisting your meta to get a mislynch when other people suspect you is telling.

Explain the meta basis? I have some thoughts, but I haven't played a game with scum titus - I've read a couple, though.

[geists]

I have. Do you believe Titus is town?

I can't find a post about her meta in your ISO.

[geists]

I'm such a strongly reads-based player that a player who approaches the game the way town-titus does looks indescipherably absurd, especially in the early game, but I understand what you mean about her logic making some sort of sense when she's town.

The thing that is standing out to me in this game is the way she's insulting players who disagree with her or scumread her. It's a different sort of aggressiveness from what I remember in our earlier games (all town games).

[geists]

We are good with voting SAD or Titus today.

[geists]

Why do you have SAD so high in your list?

[geists]

I defended you too.

[geists]

Doomed Hyrule, notscience, baltimorons, Maestro, Penguin Alien and Saki (SK)

[geists]

I defended you too.

Sorry I forgot, tho notscience and Saki and to some lesser extent Maki were the most vocal ones on it.

They chainsawed. Well notsci and Saki did. Maybe that made it more memorable. I think GCBC wound up defending you as well, but we weren't attacking your attackers.

[geists]

Here's what we are going to do.

we are going to lynch the following players in the following order

Titus
Pie
Prophy
Zmuffin
Sakura
SAD
Norl
F16
KBBQ
GM/myself
Nacho/thor
Geists


because we can afford to, and it is beneficial for us to force scum to kill the stronger players as early as they can, and still have to deal with stronger players who can sniff scum out later on. We will be getting rid of the weakest links, getting rid of the people scum could easily be using as mislynch bait. we aren't even going to think of lyncing Norl down unless we have to, everyone below him is, what I consider to be, the town block (or, rather should be)

There are parts of this that I don't like very much.

I'd like to propose a different order, but I don't think it should be hard and fast.

The xenogears town came really close to losing because they didn't scumhunt "below the line". They lynched through that group without a lot of thought.

[geists]

Bigger wagon.

Unvote, vote Titus

You have both SAD and Titus as equal scum reads?

[geists]

Do you typically seesaw to whichever wagon you can push up a notch in this sort of scenario?

[geists]

unvote, vote SAD

Larger wagon; Titus can wait.

Bigger wagon.

Unvote, vote Titus

Can you point me to games where you have done something similar?

[geists]

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthre ... st10964832 - you ask another player why he doesn't vote the scumread with the larger wagon. I couldn't find an example of you voting this way yourself, but I may be failing due to bad keyword search.

[geists]

I think there's a desire to force it to PoE stage, but there isn't consensus on who's for sure town. I kinda think some townreads need to get back to basics before this game day ends.

[geists]

Not lynching

Mara
GM

Town

KBBQ
Casso
F-16
Sakura

Probtown in order of confidence

Norl
Pieguyn
Zmuffin
Prophylaxis

Maybe Scum

SAD
Titus

I would draw my willing to eventually lynch line somewhere around prophylaxis/zmuffin and reluctantly move it upward if necessary.

Mara absolutely shouldn't be on a lynch list IMO. I think we can end this game before lylo and I don't like the idea of putting utility lynches ahead of scumhunting because that will probably just draw the game out and potentially put it in the hands of scum.

[geists]

I'm listening

I don't understand your SAD placement. I don't like your Pieguyn placement. I don't feel good about your Sakura placement either.

[geists]

"chance that he's town". What is your read of him?

[geists]

Ok then our reads of him aren't that different.

Could you make a list that breaks the remaining players into some kind of scum to town spectrum? Doesn't have to be seriatim. Mine isn't seriatim.

[geists]

Which is the right spot for Prophylaxis. You have him down twice.

[geists]

Why do you jump to "fake" instead of "error", given the speed at which she created that list?

I've accidentally listed someone twice many times in games. I've also left someone in the wrong spot many times when revising a list.

[geists]

Mara what did you think of the convo between Prophylaxis and me last night? Do you play mafia on the same site he does with generic?

[geists]

It was short. Started at 7031.

[geists]

Mara...:/

[geists]

Yeah, the "cautious because doesn't know where I'm going" is something I see more often from scum, but it does happen with town players. And his playstyle and apparent depth fit that mold ok-ish.

I came away from that thinking "kinda town". Which is reflected in where I placed him in my list.

[geists]

Why is muffin and Pie in your probtown list, and why is muffin townier than Proph?

muffin because I liked his analyses the last couple of game days, especially what he's gone back through since generic's flip. Pie in part because F-16 has convinced me. The main thing holding me back from pushing Pie into my town pile is that he keeps going quiet. I have more to base the muffin read on than I do the proph read. Those reads are really close atm though. If I had more experience to judge proph by I might move him higher. In my quick sift through some of his games at MTGS looking for this pattern of racheting up bandwagons I saw that he does this votal analysis frequently. I don't think it's alignment indicative. You do something like that consistently as town and you pretty much have to do it as scum as well.

[geists]

Yeah, I had no intention of going there to look at meta until he did that second ratchet-vote. And I didn't meta him by any stretch of the imagination. Just looked for signs of that sort of voting pattern via keyword search.

[geists]

So Mara, what you're trying to avoid is a Maniacal LYLO, correct?

[geists]

Ok, who do you feel are the players who if town are most likely to be that inflexible in reads, thought and analysis?

[geists]

I feel like pie is able to adjust and take in new info as a game evolves. He did that really well in Imperishable Nights. But, that was a smaller game. And the lurky stuff is an issue.

I think Nero has played well so far. It kinda scared me once or twice that we're agreeing so much because we usually don't. But, GiF is in there somewhere too, and I think GiF and I think more similarly than Nero and I do.

Mostly I have respect for zmuffin's town game, but I haven't seen as much of it as I've seen his scum game. I'm not sure your concerns about him being inflexible are valid. Though the tenacity of his Casso read is of concern. Sometimes he just won't move on until a player is gone (thinking about nickthename in xenogears). :/

I can be that way, too. It's usually about one player, though.

This is effectively my first game with SAD.

Titus I think is the biggest threat to town in this respect if she's town. I'm still pretty ugh when I think back to her play in the Walking Dead game. There's little room in her game-view for any town-logic other than what she personally would do in given game states from what I've seen. The various rules of thumb she's trotted out in this game are good examples, as well as being good examples of rules of thumb that let a scum player work within the space their town game occupies.

p-edit and yeah, GM. Though I think her reads improve as the game progresses. She doesn't like to let go of scum-reads, though.

[geists]

Also at this point I'm fine voting whoever not in my "not to vote" list

Refresh my mind about who those players are?

[geists]

I like that list.

I need to ISO you and remember why F-16 isn't on the list.

[geists]

I'd kinda like to hear from him about now-ish.

[geists]

you guys are totally ignoring me this game aren't you?

No?

[geists]

I vaguely remember playing in a game with F-16, this is the F-16 town meta I remember.

I think he makes good points about SAD and I think he's being helpful and I feel like he's genuinely hunting scum.

The pool of players were too large. I wanted to focus on mutually agreed upon scumreads first and see if I can get a better read on Nacho in the meantime.

I think this post is strange. I remember him making a MD post about one shouldn't hunt anyone that isn't currently being discussed. This looks very similar to that.

So I think he's town.

What do you think of that Fery?

I don't understand the 2nd half of it.

[geists]

I am not lynching KBBQ, Sakura, and Pieguyn are my townreads (in addition to Geists, GM, and Mara) although it worries me how much Pie and I agree with each other. My lynch order would be:
Titus
Arthur
Muffin
Proph (interchangeable with Muffin)
Norl
Casso
Pieguyn
Sakura
KBBQ
Mara/GM/Geists

What are your thoughts about the last 12 hours or so worth of posts?

[geists]

I don't agree with the strategy of lynching unflexible players or tunnelers. Ultimately it is going to come down to lynching people whose playstyles you don't like. I disagree for instance that Titus would be a liability and I don't like the notion that she shouldn't be allowed near LYLO even if town. I've kept quiet about it though because I've been trying to get her slot (Cephrir) lynched for ages and I'd rather not derail a likely scum lynch. I don't care to find the PeregrineV's of this game and keep them away from LYLO. I'd rather find the PAs and lynch them and wrap up this game long before LYLO.

In principle I don't agree either, but I'm thinking about what, if anything would change about my list if I did agree.

It doesn't seem like anything would change for me.

NY 164 is not the first game (or last) that "my" town has lost due to horrible LYLO play by a town player, but I still have a gut level nuh-uh reaction when I think about utility lynching someone I feel sure is town. Even when I'm the only player who feels sure. Even when I can see that their grasp of the game is really weak. The game isn't just about winning. It's about being a team, even a team whose members I don't fully know. And it's about passing on what other people have taught me about the game to people less experienced.

[geists]

Daily last wills and testaments are getting old. This is giving me very uncomfortable flashbacks to ny 165.

I think I've said everything I have to say. Questions from anyone?

[geists]

Base jump. Possibly without a parachute.

I would also commend to you this game: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p5060976

I replaced in at 3p lylo with Majiffy and Mara. Mollie had scumread Majiffy for most of the game prior to dying the night before 3p lylo. I had to decide whether and how much to trust her majiffy read over mine.

I went with my read.

[geists]

This game is different from NY164. I spent months in that game thread. nearly half a year. and my read slowly, slowly solidified. and Nacho's and my individual understandings of the game state merged a couple of times in ways where it was really, really clear that we had independently come to the same conclusions about the game design and state. In one case a changed idea about the game state changed our reads. In another case, our reads demanded that we give up very fundamental ideas about the game state and design. That degree of convergent thought was beyond what I thought Nacho could do if he was scum.

Nothing like that informs my current read of Casso. If I'm in the game long enough, and if the game develops in a way that forces me to reach that level of confidence about my read, I'll definitely say so. Possibly in iambic pentameter.

[geists]

Town, but I'd be a little more paranoid. I'd be wary that ffery and Nat are good players and keep an eye on them just in case.

My play would likely have been a lot different without DOMO targeting me night 1. I'm usually not an early investigative target at MS for some reason. I play differently when I'm coming under or expect to come under legitimate non-paranoia-based suspicion. I think getting investigated harmed my game, paradoxically. I play better when I make a reasonable target of suspicion, and I wind up being read solidly town because I earn it.

[geists]

Well, I hope I haven't been a slug, but yeah, I'm sure it's not uncommon to lose some of one's edge.

[geists]

Yeah, I agree that being investigated or confirmed can change one's game. I think most people tend to keep their reads closer to their chest because there is less responsibility to look town and show everyone that you are town if you are confirmed. That lets them evaluate the game state while keeping their own thoughts secret and you certainly strike me as that type of player.

Knowing the priority of my death should probably increase, I like all my cards on the table before a game day ends.

Speaking of which, I'm liking SAD better based on recent posts.

[geists]

I dunno. I always feel a little cautious about ascribing scum strategy to what could very well be town brownian movement.

[geists]

Knowing the priority of my death should probably increase, I like all my cards on the table before a game day ends.

Speaking of which, I'm liking SAD better based on recent posts.

which posts? also, his push on me sucks and is intended to throw dirt as opposed to actually scumhunting

Well it's always to be expected that when people calm down their read will generally get weaker as they begin to question if they truly thought you were scum or just raging. In fact if anything I would expect scum's reads to be more static

just because it would be much easier to keep going "SAD is scum" because you've already had a large argument that half the people didn't bother reading and assumed that your argument lead you to believe that way, rather than having to change reads and begin pushing elsewhere.

Pedit: @F-16

this is so fucking sketchy I want to cry like can someone give me a dayvig shot or smth like that to shoot this fucker already?

he's indirectly opposing a behavior I'm doing to paint me as scummy. this shows the true motivation of his push on me. after i ignored him, he saw addressing me directly wouldn't work so now he's using indirect methods like this to subtly throw dirt at me and reinforce the idea I'm scum. it also includes a dichotomy he set up that is intended to be town behavior (rather than having to change reads and begin pushing elsewhere) vs. scum behavior (keep going "SAD is scum" because you've already had a large argument that half the people didn't bother reading and assumed that your argument lead you to believe that way) when this is first of all a completely false dichotomy and second, the "scum behavior" half misrep'd the fuck out of what I was doing. again he's being subtle and indirectly reinforcing the idea that I'm scum instead of doing it directly. this is a manipulative tactic as opposed to being direct about it and is scum behavior

So am I. It just makes me want to lynch Titus more.

Although I have a theory that they could both be scum. Neither votes the other. The people on the wagon are flexible and don't mind voting either. While others like zMuffin try to pull away from both and vote Proph instead while both Titus and Arthur are suspicious of Proph. It could be tinfoil hat but Titus/Arthur/Muffin actually make sense. Thoughts?

I saw smth supporting this but I didn't post it bc I wanted to see SAD flail more

And then there's me wondering why you have me as a scumread, yet you're not voting me.

Oh I'm sorry, does it make a huge difference to you?

See this is the thing I mean. You keep spewing things right and left that literally serve no purpose other than to look like you're trying.

Name one scum motivation for me "thinking you're scum" but not voting you. Go ahead. Enlighten me.

Titus (2) - Prophylaxis, Norlkaz
Ser Arthur Dayne (2) - Sakura Hana, pieguyn
Prophylaxis (2) - zMuffinMan, Titus

Not Voting (7) - geists, Casso the King of Seals, Ms Marangal, F-16_Fighting_Falcon, KoreanBBQ, goodmorning, Ser Arthur Dayne

afaik not wanting to jump on a wagon right at the same time as both of your scumbuddies is a p good scum motivation

If you're town take a deep breath and stop assuming that any suspicion of you has to come from scum.

[geists]

I'm pretty sure ffery knows something about mara that GM doesn't. Er, or I hope so? Yeah.

How is this supposed to work?

[geists]

I might want to do it the other way, something I know about you that I don't know about Mara.

[geists]

You want us to do math?

HAHAHAHAHAno

though, I do like the personal question that someone here knows that GM doesn't. seems legit

Happy Birthday!

I can do it, but it will be questions that GM knows and you don't.

When you're both around, I'll see what I can do.

[geists]

I won't do mine unless you are both in the thread at the same time, and I'll give you 5 minutes max to answer.

[geists]

Are you both here now?

[geists]

Still waiting to do my mason test whenever we're all 3 in the thread at once.

[geists]

Are you both still here?

Because I have 2 sweet questions that will need answers within 5 minutes or I'll declare the test null and void.

[geists]

Goodmorning, in our first game together, a word you posted a few times sparked a statistical analysis of that word's frequency in all your prior games.

Mara, what was the word?

5 minutes. Go!

[geists]

Good thing I have a backup question then.

[geists]

What's the answer Mara?

[geists]

Yeah. Questions aren't that hard to come up with. coordinating a timeframe, not so much.

[geists]

So am I.

[geists]

Proph, I'm very interested in your answer to the bolded question as well.

proph

do you usually hunt (or can you show me where you've previously hunted) for scum based solely on the

number

of "interactions" with flipped scum? also, i gather you have experience with generic -

is the idea that generic would have fewer interactions with his buddies based on meta or is it purely an assertion?

See like this feels fake and ooc

did you actually read proph's post?

coz he's literally suggesting people are town/scum based purely on the number of interactions. like, read it.

[geists]

OH ANSWER TO THE FIRST QUESTION IS INTERESTING IF YOU'LL STILL TAKE IT

lol that's not the answer I was thinking of but it's not a bad answer.