NY 169: The EPIC XD Mafia Game of Greatness (Game Over)

[Sakura Hana]

I am going to reverify but pretty sure Casso unvoted when you where at L minus 1.

I was indeed 1 vote away from lynch, but I mean, i could've unvoted and be at L-2 just as easily, why do you think i didnt, do that and refused to claim?

[Titus]

Day 1, Votecount 69

Sakura Hana (10)

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Tammy, Casso the King of Seals, DOMO, Ser Arthur Dayne, Sakura Hana, geists, Desperado, KoreanBBQ, MC Maraca, Bert

Casso the King of Seals (3)

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zMuffinMan, goodmorning, Generic

Stuffed Crust (2)

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Cephrir, pieguyn

F-16_Fighting_Falcon (1)

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BROseidon

goodmorning (1)

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Norlkaz

Not Voting (3)

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MafiaSSK, F-16_Fighting_Falcon, Stuffed Crust

With 20 alive, it takes 11 to lynch! Deadline is on December 26th at 3:45 PM EST or in (expired on 2013-12-26 16:44:27)

Mod Notes

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Varsoon head of Stuffed Crust V/LA until January 25th. F-16_Fighting_Falcon is V/LA until the 31st. goodmorning is V/LA until the 26th. DOMO is V/LA until the 27th. Generic is V/LA until the 26th.

Unvote

Sakura, come back, respond to case, talk to me.
There's no reason to shut down now just because you got deadline wagoned.
There have been cases put out against you; you didn't respond to most of them.

I will be back later but I have no ideas outside of eternal compromise lynch of SSK.

Yeah, Casso unvoted you at L minus 1.

[Titus]

I am going to reverify but pretty sure Casso unvoted when you where at L minus 1.

I was indeed 1 vote away from lynch, but I mean, i could've unvoted and be at L-2 just as easily, why do you think i didnt, do that and refused to claim?

Yeah you're totally asking questions designed to discredit. The refusal to claim is scumfucks/vengeful/spirit. I lynch on the spot for that. Period, especially with looming deadline.

@Pie, tentative town, bc so many scumreads. That's gun to my head had to pick. If no gun, I would say null.

[Sakura Hana]

I lynch on the spot for that.

Exactly!

[Titus]

I lynch on the spot for that.

Exactly!

So my big question is why the fuck did that wagon dissolve? Voila.. More vidence you are scum.

[Sakura Hana]

I lynch on the spot for that.

Exactly!

So my big question is why the fuck did that wagon dissolve? Voila.. More vidence you are scum.

I think you missed the point.

[geists]

@ffery:

thoughts on that? ^ it's p fking obvious that "permission to kill" was permission from his hydra partner and not to actually kill Sakura. so I'm inclined to agree the way she's sticking to it seems forced

Those are my thoughts as well.

also, what's your current read on zmuffin?

I can't do any better than null here. I wish I could. A town zmuffin would be an awesome asset in this game. I'd trade this zmuffin in on the Cash Cabd Rail Tracer in a heartbeat.

[pieguyn]

what do you think of the associatives between SAD and zmuffin? or do you think that should wait till SAD flips

[KoreanBBQ]

Town<<<kbbq, Gen,f-16, geists, Mara/GM, Casso, Pie, muffin, Bro, proph, SAD, Norl, Titus, SSK>>>scum

[Titus]

I lynch on the spot for that.

Exactly!

So my big question is why the fuck did that wagon dissolve? Voila.. More vidence you are scum.

I think you missed the point.

Walk me through it. Slowly.

[KoreanBBQ]

I lynch on the spot for that.

Exactly!

So my big question is why the fuck did that wagon dissolve? Voila.. More vidence you are scum.

Oh look. Not looking deeper into context yet again.
I'm not surprised.

[Titus]

what do you think of the associatives between SAD and zmuffin? or do you think that should wait till SAD flips

Associatives are decent but shouldn't be used heavily unless he alignment of one of the parties is known.

That being said, what associatives?

[Titus]

I lynch on the spot for that.

Exactly!

So my big question is why the fuck did that wagon dissolve? Voila.. More vidence you are scum.

Oh look. Not looking deeper into context yet again.
I'm not surprised.

I am not ignoring, whatever context SH wishes to elaborate on. Frankly, refusal to claim is one of the clearest brightline things there is.

[geists]

I lynch on the spot for that.

Exactly!

So my big question is why the fuck did that wagon dissolve? Voila.. More vidence you are scum.

Oh look. Not looking deeper into context yet again.
I'm not surprised.

I am not ignoring, whatever context SH wishes to elaborate on. Frankly, refusal to claim is one of the clearest brightline things there is.

Walking Dead called. Something about Sangres and refusal to claim.

[MafiaSSK]

PROD DODGE.

[KoreanBBQ]

your buddy Titus needs help.

[Sakura Hana]

I lynch on the spot for that.

Exactly!

So my big question is why the fuck did that wagon dissolve? Voila.. More vidence you are scum.

I think you missed the point.

Walk me through it. Slowly.

How slowly?

You're missing the part where i didn't unvote myself.
You seem to also have been missing the part where I offered myself for lynch yesterday in Casso's stead.
You seem to also be missing the part that this isn't the first time I've ever refused to claim.
You also seem to be missing the part where Casso mentions this is as strong as my blacklist-tell.

There are a lot of things you don't seem to have addressed instead you jumped into what seems to be the most obvious and safe thing for you to jump on.

[geists]

what do you think of the associatives between SAD and zmuffin? or do you think that should wait till SAD flips

Did you post them earlier? Link?

[Sakura Hana]

Hi guys. I'm back. Catching up time!

PROD DODGE.

Yeah don't worry it seems to be a burden for you to post when you're conf scum you'll be free from it soon.

[pieguyn]

what do you think of the associatives between SAD and zmuffin? or do you think that should wait till SAD flips

Did you post them earlier? Link?

6205
there was also F-16's point right after where he defaulted to questioning Tammy's stance on SAD, despite Tammy having experience with him

[Titus]

SH, I don't give a shit for safe. I don't really care you didn't beat Thor to unvoting yourself as it wouldn't have worked with your AtE anyway. I don't really care for meta and I love fucking with towntells as scum. I did that myself in the fire game. Votes mean more than words to me. Besides, you said it's obvious to think you are scum with that vca. Occam's Razor, you are scum.

BBQ, why do you keep pushing me as scum without evidence, I at least said mine.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

And what are your thoughts regarding the differences in Llamarble's behavior here compared with Red Wine? I'd ask about Cephrir but I am assuming we are in agreement there. It wasn't actually hard to read either player as town/scum, especially Llamarble although Cephrir was probably the trickier one.

That was my first game with llamarble and I had no idea how to read him. His reads were more accurate than mine for the most part, but during that game on day 1 and 2 I didn't know what to make of him. He had reads but he wasn't pushing them very hard, and the one hard stance he took (espeonage-town) I really disagreed with after I read through the game projectmatt linked and the case he made for espe-scum. So, I'm in a similar situation - not really understanding the basis for some of his reads, and therefore not trusting them. And his playstyle is different but I don't know if that's playing to his alt-meta. He has a harder edge in this game than he did in Red Wine.

Ceph's play here did not really fit his town meta as I've recently seen it (Dixon Hill, Cash Cabd, NY167), but it's hard to see the fatalistic stuff as fitting his scum-meta. There was one point where I finally flashed onto oh-hell-this-is-scum-Ceph on day 1 of the Red Wine game, and his reaction to my sudden vote didn't have a "you're wrong because I'm town" feel to it, which I did occasionally see flashes of in this game. This post is a good starting point for that exchange.

The notable thing about Llamarble's Espeonage defense was that it was based on the wagon composition more than his actual read. He

immediately

caught on Empire/Tammy scumteam and spent a significant amount of time calling them scum. Then they bussed the hell out of Espeonage leading Llamarble to defend him on the basis that the wagon reeked of scum.

votecount

espeonage (4): empire, tammy, projectmatt, bbmolla
fferyllt (4): cabd, cephrir, espeonage, crashtextdummie
Albert B. Rampage (2): katsuki, Llamarble
bbmolla (1): Albert B. Rampage
pjovek (1): chamber
chamber (1): pjovek
katsuki (1): TSO

Not voting (1): fferyllt

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch.

I think we've reached the point where Espeonage's wagon confirms him as town?
Certainly it's a wretched hive of scum and other scum.

although later in post 572, he sort of conf-biases himself into defending Espeonage on his own merits.

The "basis" for his reads was that he believed scum was pushing Espeonage. They were. I think the reason you didn't understand it was that you weren't scumreading Empire + Tammy and using that as the basis for townreading other players. When I was watching it unfold in real time, I was scumreading Empire so I was able to follow his thought process very easily and closely.

This at least makes sense with the way he created "a scumteam based on Pieguy" here because he tends to create an entire vision of who the scum are based on scumreads that he feels incredibly confident about. In Red Wine, it was Tammy and Empire. Here it was Pieguy (although that read seems to have changed). Obviously, the reason I couldn't follow anything he said here was that I am townreading Pieguy really hard so his entire scumteam possibility didn't make sense.

That actually makes me think Norl could be town.

What do you mean by "hard edge?" Can you point out the posts which you felt had a "hard edge?"

[geists]

And what are your thoughts regarding the differences in Llamarble's behavior here compared with Red Wine? I'd ask about Cephrir but I am assuming we are in agreement there. It wasn't actually hard to read either player as town/scum, especially Llamarble although Cephrir was probably the trickier one.

That was my first game with llamarble and I had no idea how to read him. His reads were more accurate than mine for the most part, but during that game on day 1 and 2 I didn't know what to make of him. He had reads but he wasn't pushing them very hard, and the one hard stance he took (espeonage-town) I really disagreed with after I read through the game projectmatt linked and the case he made for espe-scum. So, I'm in a similar situation - not really understanding the basis for some of his reads, and therefore not trusting them. And his playstyle is different but I don't know if that's playing to his alt-meta. He has a harder edge in this game than he did in Red Wine.

Ceph's play here did not really fit his town meta as I've recently seen it (Dixon Hill, Cash Cabd, NY167), but it's hard to see the fatalistic stuff as fitting his scum-meta. There was one point where I finally flashed onto oh-hell-this-is-scum-Ceph on day 1 of the Red Wine game, and his reaction to my sudden vote didn't have a "you're wrong because I'm town" feel to it, which I did occasionally see flashes of in this game. This post is a good starting point for that exchange.

The notable thing about Llamarble's Espeonage defense was that it was based on the wagon composition more than his actual read. He

immediately

caught on Empire/Tammy scumteam and spent a significant amount of time calling them scum. Then they bussed the hell out of Espeonage leading Llamarble to defend him on the basis that the wagon reeked of scum.

votecount

espeonage (4): empire, tammy, projectmatt, bbmolla
fferyllt (4): cabd, cephrir, espeonage, crashtextdummie
Albert B. Rampage (2): katsuki, Llamarble
bbmolla (1): Albert B. Rampage
pjovek (1): chamber
chamber (1): pjovek
katsuki (1): TSO

Not voting (1): fferyllt

With 15 alive it takes 8 to lynch.

I think we've reached the point where Espeonage's wagon confirms him as town?
Certainly it's a wretched hive of scum and other scum.

although later in post 572, he sort of conf-biases himself into defending Espeonage on his own merits.

The "basis" for his reads was that he believed scum was pushing Espeonage. They were. I think the reason you didn't understand it was that you weren't scumreading Empire + Tammy and using that as the basis for townreading other players. When I was watching it unfold in real time, I was scumreading Empire so I was able to follow his thought process very easily and closely.

This at least makes sense with the way he created "a scumteam based on Pieguy" here because he tends to create an entire vision of who the scum are based on scumreads that he feels incredibly confident about. In Red Wine, it was Tammy and Empire. Here it was Pieguy (although that read seems to have changed). Obviously, the reason I couldn't follow anything he said here was that I am townreading Pieguy really hard so his entire scumteam possibility didn't make sense.

That actually makes me think Norl could be town.

What do you mean by "hard edge?" Can you point out the posts which you felt had a "hard edge?"

Hard edge is probably purely a persona thing. It was things like pushing us to take more of a leadership role when we were embroiled in a ton of disagreements about reads with some of the people we were townreading.

Ok, that makes sense re creating a scum team based on strongest scum reads. I sometimes flash on team/not-team combos, but I tend to think in terms of individual read strengths rather than team-hunt prior to flips.

Nati has some pretty strong concerns about Norl but I think I'll let him talk to you about them when he has a chance.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm not rereading 6000 posts so someone catch me up.

[Norlkaz]

That was my first game with llamarble and I had no idea how to read him. His reads were more accurate than mine for the most part, but during that game on day 1 and 2 I didn't know what to make of him. He had reads but he wasn't pushing them very hard, and the one hard stance he took (espeonage-town) I really disagreed with after I read through the game projectmatt linked and the case he made for espe-scum. So, I'm in a similar situation - not really understanding the basis for some of his reads, and therefore not trusting them. And his playstyle is different but I don't know if that's playing to his alt-meta. He has a harder edge in this game than he did in Red Wine.

Hey, I managed to withdraw my Espeonage lynch veto before we got to the end of D1
F16 is right that there was a decent 'scum are voting him' component.

Today, we're lynching SSK. I've checked a couple times, including just now, and don't disagree with this. I think I got it wrong previously and it will result in a scumflip.
It often takes me a long time to explain myself, and sometimes I just end up backtracking anyway (see original SSK townreasons that had some significant holes).
Generally you will see explanations from me when I have either something particularly interesting or something relatively simple to explain or need to do it to be persuasive.