Mini 1524: Olympian Gods Mafia - Game Over

[Nachomamma8]

Vote: Wisdom

I don't like that you didn't say hi to me when I'm clearly your favorite.

[Nachomamma8]

So I just get the same treatment as everyone else?

[Nachomamma8]

If I could vote you harder, I would. But this will have to do for now.

[Nachomamma8]

See, this is how I know the game is going to be good.

[Nachomamma8]

plz selfvote you cheeky scumbag

[Nachomamma8]

it will help along the inevitable

[Nachomamma8]

wis why are you so calm. that worries me a bit

he's calm because he thinks that I won't lynch the fuck out of him with no evidence and someone else will come save him with a "guys stop trying to lynch wisdom before page 3".
if he was town he'd be panicking, calling me scum with whiskers, screaming his pretty little head off
but he's not

[Nachomamma8]

Pirate Mollie is super scum or super new noobie noob?

she is a super new noobie noob, but also probably both

[Nachomamma8]

lot of known faces...

hey mattp, long time..

aww...my dear mollie is here I also think Nacho is scum, he cheated me on the other game. lets lynch him first.

Wisdom can wait.

VOTE: Nacho

NO NO NO NO NO

[Nachomamma8]

Pirate Mollie is super scum or super new noobie noob?

Can't tell.

Also shos, you're terrible at reaction tests, unless you are scum who is sloppy on purpose.

Daykill: shos

oh look some1 I have never played before thinks I am scum. I am shocked I tell you simply shocked

oh look some1 who played with me a lot before incorrectly thinks I am scum. I am shocked I tell you simply shocked

[Nachomamma8]

Why with whiskers specifically, nacho?

Is this a real question?

[Nachomamma8]

lot of known faces...

hey mattp, long time..

aww...my dear mollie is here I also think Nacho is scum, he cheated me on the other game. lets lynch him first.

Wisdom can wait.

VOTE: Nacho

NO NO NO NO NO

now what you excuse you got.. you cheater.. i will have my revenge on you..

I'm not the one who needs to give excuses. You need to start giving me excuses for jumping off scum-Wisdom's wagon.

Obviously. Why would whiskers be your buddy in that fantasy you're describing instead of someone else who voted me?

Because we were the two people who started the initial push on you.
Why do you ask?

I never said I thought you were scum I voted you cos I thought it would be funny and I wanted to see what you would do

why so defensive

I wasn't being defensive; I was making fun of you.

[Nachomamma8]

Because I thought it's odd that you mentioned him.

Why is it odd? Do you think Whiskers is more likely to be my scumpartner because I mentioned him in that hypothetical?

[Nachomamma8]

Pirate mollie, I was annoyed with the way you treated me in mykos game. However I'm going to be much more calm and rational this game than I've been before. I think taking a break from games was good.

Welcome back!

[Nachomamma8]

@nacho
Nah, but I don't get why you'd think someone would assume two scumbuddies started an rvs wagon on them.

you wouldn't
that's the joke

[Nachomamma8]

wis you are starting to freak me out

Why not vote him if he's starting to freak you out?

[Nachomamma8]

wis you are starting to freak me out

Why not vote him if he's starting to freak you out?

cos I don't want to

why are you asking me this vapid question as if you don't know me

how would you expect me to ask that question sweetheart

Aw man pirate you couldn't have waited just a little longer?

Not reading me as town yet? That's a surprise!

[Nachomamma8]

@Nacho: I didn't say I have a scum read on you

I thought you were using mollie's interactions with me in order to read me. You not using them to read me at all is incredibly disappointing

Nacho, Like mollie already mentioned you're getting pretty defensive...
And i don't like the way you questioned me about my vote on you..

I was trying to strongarm you into lynching Wisdom because having a hilarious Day 1 is occasionally more satisfying than having a productive Day 1. It wasn't a serious line of questioning.

[Nachomamma8]

I thought you were using mollie's interactions with me in order to read me. You not using them to read me at all is incredibly disappointing

I have no idea how you're reading my posts

In a way they weren't meant to be read.

wait i thought we were speedlynching wisdom

We were, but then they got cold feet for some inexplicable reason.

Also, didn't anybody else realize? Everybody saying that Nachomamma got really defensive: did you forget that just before that, he was saying that a townie getting voted would get really defensive? I don't think he's suspicious for being "defensive" about being voted-- that's a playstyle thing, everypony is different-- no, I think he's suspicious for being defensive because I believe he's intentionally doing it, playing to a sort of idealized town meta.

To recap:
"It's town to be a horse"
*bees a horse*
See?

Where was I defensive again?

[Nachomamma8]

78 isn't too long, really Shos? It's about the same size as your catch up.

Wisdom - his ISO the last few posts by him are reading as defensive. I can quote them if you like, but for me it makes me lean town on him.

I'm not criticizing the size of your post. I'm criticizing its content. having so many reads so quickly, that's a real feat. I had like, one, and it was weak.

this is a dumb tell that never works ever

I was mostly trolling him and pushing his buttons and while I get why arc and mebbe even mala followed my push cos they he and I are pretty good friends and sometimes nacho can be a blank slate that is best observed through other people's eyes when all you see is an empty canvas but i find your push to be weird.

I agree.

I don't think he was being defensive either. My quote that made me think he was trying to play to that "relative tell" was "NO NO NO NO NO."
That's not a real defence. It's not real defensiveness. But is it "screaming his little head off"?

So I'm not trying to mimic town based on what I think townies should do, but instead am trying to mimic town based on what town-Wisdom would do?

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mala

I had the opposite reaction. Like, absolutely 100% the opposite reaction.

out of time now, continue later

[Nachomamma8]

To quote for everyone;

Spoiler: Last time I caught Mala

You have a tendency to tunnel me.

and being right

Not always. There has been games you were wrong.

And your tunneling in general isn't always right.

Quote the posts around you catching her, as well because those were a stark differences to the posts around you "catching her" we're seeing now.

Yes, of course he would say what is town before he did it. Doing a thing and then announcing that it was town afterwards would look really scummy. It's the same thing, basically, just the process ends up making you look better or worse.

Do you remember the game we played on a scumteam together? There are certain things that look town to a majority of crowds; posting lots of big walls of content, being aggressive, being logical. In said game where we were on a scumteam together, I never did anything that was even close to "say something is town, then do it".

Why not? Is this one magical thing what makes you unique, your defining characteristic in an otherwise entirely standard, white-rice, mafia player?
Argh. I'll quit.

No, but it's a defining characteristic of Wisdom? Why does it have to have any of those other qualities?

What purpose did nacho's question serve here?

I was pestering Wisdom and trying to get a rise out of him and the first sign of any real reaction to my crusade on him was a useless question that served no purpose whatsoever. I wanted to challenge him on the usefulness of that line of thought so I could see if it was going to lead me to one of his rabbit holes again (which would be a good sign of him being town).

The Nachomamma townread is intentionally based on loose sand. I don't think a genuine MAlakittens would give him townpoints for defensiveness. This is evident because of the word "but". Normally she wouldn't consider Nacho being defensive as town, "but"...

I don't understand at all what this point was about.

I recently found something newish for reading Nacho thanks to Jiffy and that's where my defensive tell came into play.

Jiffy has tells on me now too?

seriously, this is the most inactive mattgame I have ever seen, I meanw ut. he was usualy superhyperextraactive. now he only has a few one-liner posts and he's EVEN VOATING MEEEEE i mean WUUT

matt has lazy games sometimes
also this seems fake as hell

I have never ever seen ooba troll before. ever

VOTE: ooba

I think ooba-town seems more likely to troll than ooba-scum; ooba scum is very calculating.

Town:
Malakittens
Wisdom
Pirate Mollie
ArcAngel
NachoMomma
MattP
Whiskers

Eh or hasn't posted:
Mirari
Ooba
Desperado
Penguin_Alien

SCUM:
Shos
Grimgroove

upgrade ooba to town and we are 100% in agreement.

Vote: shoes

mostly sheeping mattp here because i stopped reading shos posts a while ago
was gonna ask mattp what his mirari townread was about, but then #422 came along!

[Nachomamma8]

Can't really post right now but I wanna apologize in advance nacho for when I vote you out of paranoia in like a hundred pages from now

I forgive you in advance
Although I don't expect the game to go long enough for you to get paranoid of me.

Nacho sheeping people felt a little weird, I'm too used to him being the leader. At least he agrees with the reads.

It's fun to sheep sometimes!

looks like I'm going to be today's lynch, but it's not too bad, and much information will float from this wagon. so spam the thread as you wish guyz, you have at least 18 hours free from shos

This is pretty fatalistic for the recipient of the first serious wagon of the game, don't you think?

- Mollie's tone seems off - I have a town baseline and this is not it. But that's based off one game and Mala apparently has more experience on mollie's game so disregarding my meta knowledge for now

Is this the game that we played together?

Whiskers - Scum

I have trouble seeing scum flying so thoroughly down the rabbit hole so early; the "Nacho is trying to manipulate everyone into thinking being overdefensive is a scumtell early" would be an conspiracy theory to break out right of the gate, and full tilt on MattP based on the weird things Whiskers picks up on with the conviction Whiskers is pushing it would be immensely impressive for Whiskers-scum.

@ Mollie: Why are you hesitant to vote shos when he was intentionally playing scummy in Doctor mafia because he was the nurse? He said as much in thread. I also agree with Ooba, your Whiskers vote just looks like sour grapes to me. Who do you actually think is scum?

how does it look like sour grapes

Why is Whiskers scum?

the pissiness looks fake and it looks like she is trying to work at coming up with a reason as to why nacho is scum and I am not town scum reading nacho but if whiskers flips scum nacho is for sure town but to me it is more about the fake meltdowns

You don't have a read on me? Why not? And why would you try to read me through Whiskers's flip?

[Nachomamma8]

Desp is a strong strong townread for his push on mollie; doesn't strike me as something that he'd try if there's no way in hell he's getting her mislynched, and the conviction of not matching up is serious :goodvibes:.

[Nachomamma8]

If I had a vig-kill, my shot would be Miss Mollie, not because I think she's scum, but because every time she posts, I want to wring necks.

Also, kind of had Desperado in my "scum reads" for being worse than Matt-- short posts, not very many of them to begin with-- but I'm not sure I can vote him at this point, what with him being the Champion of Mt. Whiskers at the moment. ((Malakittens should see this paragraph and think I'm scum, it was in my meta to scumread people who townread me.))

Anyway.
Unvote
Vote: pirate mollie

please don't do this whiskers

[Nachomamma8]

I officially also have no idea who you suspect anymore.

[Nachomamma8]

what I learned from it is that you are even more surely scum. you didn't ask any questions, wonder anything; I pulled an unreasoned 180 on my townread, and you were just taking the bait - you take every idiotic excuse anyone would give you to vote me.

if this wasn't clear, I just picked my best townread(whiskers)(well perhaps should've chosen GG, but at the time whiskers came to mind) and ISOed him, and looked for a long post and quoted it, without even reading, and posted a general statement OH MY GOD THIS SUCKS SO BAD - just like the reasons for the votes on me were. STUPID.

what

[Nachomamma8]

mollie feels too nice and too fluffy. Either she's ovulating or she's scum.

What do you think of her push on Whiskers?

shos lost his townread. He shouldn't have put his agreements and admiration for me in all caps. Even though I stil lstand by my Mala-scumread very very much, I don't feel I've presented a case yet that deserves such praise.

I like this! I also think your Mala scumread is wrong.

[Nachomamma8]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0U0AlLVqpk

i don't think clicking this link will help much whiskers

[Nachomamma8]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Actor

What I thought you possibly were.

My mind is not right at the moment. ._.

This rabbit hole theory is crazy town and not really a scumMala move at all. It is also completely consistent with earlier posting:

I have a sight feeling on MattP, but I need to see more, but I can probably see him being town.

So unless you think that Mala-scum came up with the idea at the beginning of the game to suspect someone of being an Actor who didn't RVS vote from her first post, crumb it initially, then react immediately when they put a vote down, then she's probably town.

It's your tunneling in general that pisses me off regardless of my alignment in any past game we played. I guess you have a point you haven't tunneled me as town, but right now you're tunneling on town me.

This also struck me as a wonderfully town reaction. I don't think Mala-scum would say something that was false and easily proven to be false and then back down so easily like this.

It's part of her scum-meta to do this, but you're ignoring it and treating her like town because she's only focusing on any interactions that's coming at her instead of taking the bull by the horns and looking at other posts like I know town-Peng to do so.

Her push on penguin is also a pretty clear effort to sort her out, and it's a type of attack based on a scumread in a previous game that feels pretty fucking genuine. I always like pushes based on meta authority and this is no exception. Also liked the reach out to mollie even after she found an easy reason to call mollie town.

[Nachomamma8]

Scum, based on interactions with Mala. I don't like how she doesn't take a position on her tunneling (doesn't even come close to it), and then finds Mala scum for a really really weird reason.

[Nachomamma8]

dear mollie:
"skelda always looks this scummy!"

[Nachomamma8]

dear mollie:
"skelda always looks this scummy!"

((Nacho, can you explain this to me? I don't get the joke))

It's a reference to another game; mollie will get it.

[Nachomamma8]

Whiskers, if you DON'T have a scumread on me why aren't you trying to work with me? I think I'm a pretty rational guy. It seems that if you just stopped throwing insults and snark at me and tried being cooperative it would make a whole lot more sense. Your antagonism towards nearly every player in the game is irrationally unproductive.

matt this is where you are freaking me out. I have never seen your scumgame only your town but you are completely different here. I have never seen you reach out before.

When have you played with Matt? Walking Dead and Posh, right?

[Nachomamma8]

So nacho what are your scumreads? shos/penguin/?

Not sure. The rest are in my not-town pile.

[Nachomamma8]

namely arc, groove, mirari, ooba.

[Nachomamma8]

can't talk about ooba now.

I will say that there's a lot more to say that other townreads are town, though. Ooba has an odd opening for scum-ooba and then not so much.

[Nachomamma8]

yeah he was pretty excitable there. those 2 are my only experiences with him other than tater

those were shitty mattp towngames.
this is a much better mattp towngame.

[Nachomamma8]

@ nacho

I don't think scum desp would push me either but I also expect to him to be able to read me a bit better as town. matt, wis are solid town reads, arc has slipped a bit and mala is unsure. I think shos looks like pondscum but I thought that in sabotage too. I will lay off whiskers for now but jesus christ don't let her skate.

eta: xposts

What do you think of my reasons for Mala-town?

[Nachomamma8]

Writing her off too easily?

[Nachomamma8]

but I also expect to him to be able to read me a bit better as town.

The push itself is good, even though it's probably wrong. That's not what a scumDesp ignoring obvious towntells to get a mislynch on you would look like.

[Nachomamma8]

The Nachomamma townread is intentionally based on loose sand. I don't think a genuine MAlakittens would give him townpoints for defensiveness. This is evident because of the word "but". Normally she wouldn't consider Nacho being defensive as town, "but"...

This was extremely nitpicky; seemed like the type of thing scum would attack but can't find town having conviction in.

That argument is bad. There's nothing remotely special about that kind of bitching. Even if he didn't do it before (as if you'd remember something like him NOT doing something like that before), it's not as crucial as you make it out to be. Maybe he learned a thing or two in the meanwhile, leading him to be suspicious of early townreads? MAybe it's the nature of your particular townreads that don't sit well with him? Maybe, maybe, maybe, so many possible explanations. Yet you focus on one and turn it into a crucial "argument".

He uses Mala noting that shos didn't dislike early townreads in the past as a point against Mala because "shos might have changed". Yes, shos might have changed but nothing at all points to that so Mala shouldn't have to make that assumption when she sees something different, and it's weird he expects her to make that assumption.

shos' latest buddying and agreeing with everything I say doesn't feel too good. Too over the top to still be genuine.

Dropping shos townread when he did was weird timing.

[Nachomamma8]

but I also expect to him to be able to read me a bit better as town.

The push itself is good, even though it's probably wrong. That's not what a scumDesp ignoring obvious towntells to get a mislynch on you would look like.

the only thing that irks me is how he is ignoring what whiskers is doing. I mean like we literally just saw this happen in a micros.

He didn't ignore what whiskers is doing; he mentioned how whiskers and ETL were different.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't want to explain why Ooba is not town right now, just forget it

Can't*

[Nachomamma8]

Why can't you?

just leave it at can't for now.

[Nachomamma8]

that's unfortunate then because you're gonna have to wait regardless

[Nachomamma8]

[Nachomamma8]

Not long. I'm probably being far too careful, but a little extra caution never hurt anyone.

[Nachomamma8]

It's an ongoing.

[Nachomamma8]

Who are Whiskers' teammates?

[Nachomamma8]

Yeah, it's like her signature move.

[Nachomamma8]

You think it felt natural this time Nacho?

Because it felt like she was putting on a show to me. I feel like town Mollie would have whipped out the chair wayyyyy before she did.

The timing was good. It felt like an attempt to grab Whiskers's attention once she settled on him and he started ignoring her; the quick ooba vote shows she wasn't really feeling Whiskers entirely until the recent exchange.

Ooba and I live together. We can read each other well.

This is decent info. How sure are you of oobatown? What do you think of him not townreading you yet?

Pedit: the votes onnacho and whiskers were not real. They were bait for you. AGAIN! If you read my posts youll find that ive already said that.

Why do you continue to bait Wisdom when you already find a strong read on him?

You think it felt natural this time Nacho?

Because it felt like she was putting on a show to me. I feel like town Mollie would have whipped out the chair wayyyyy before she did.

The timing was good. It felt like an attempt to grab Whiskers's attention once she settled on him and he started ignoring her; the quick ooba vote shows she wasn't really feeling Whiskers entirely until the recent exchange.

Ooba and I live together. We can read each other well.

This is decent info. How sure are you of oobatown? What do you think of him not townreading you yet?

Pedit: the votes onnacho and whiskers were not real. They were bait for you. AGAIN! If you read my posts youll find that ive already said that.

Why do you continue to bait Wisdom when you already found a strong read on him?

[Nachomamma8]

I also now think Shos is probably town, which makes me annoyed and paranoid at the majority of the player list

why? what was so good about the latest wall?

[Nachomamma8]

so. the way I see it, wisdom is scum. because he is always on the largest wagon. because he pushes MANY lynches, and drops them all except for me. because he has like 5 conftowns in D1, one of them is from the first page. because he takes any reason to vote, without thinking. because he refuses to say WHY he is so adamant about lynching me - it is obvious, and if you don't see it - you're stupid. because when forced to bring up ANYTHING to support his lynch, he blatantly lies. because he says that X is scummy, and if 1, 2, 3, 4 people do X, then only person 3 is scum. because he buddied Matt in ways that I really couldn't imagine, and ffs, I just wrote to GG that I loved him.

who cares if he's on the largest wagon?
what's bad on pushing many lynches?
why would he stop on you?
why do a lot of strong townreads matter? why are early townreads bad?
what's wrong with voting easily? how can you say he hasn't been thinking?
why is excessive buddying scummy?

[Nachomamma8]

Because he trusts you. I don't think that he would be so incredibly jumpy as scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Like when you have someone's ear as scum you push scumpartner + townie, back up the strong townie on your scumpartner then pull a subtle shift to a townie. Wisdom's current play isn't anything close to that at all.

[Nachomamma8]

Why do you continue to bait Wisdom when you already found a strong read on him?

well unlike wisdom my way of playing is reading people and also explaining my reads. those baits are meant to help me show you why he is scum

Run me through why Wisdom's reactions to bait make him scum again.

[Nachomamma8]

missing the point - he is on ALL the largest wagons.

Why does this make him more likely to be scum?

missing the point - he shouldn't, but point is he needs to THINK. he did those without thinking.

His way of scumhunting is more of a push first, scumhunt later kind of deal. Just because the thinking doesn't happen clearly before the push doesn't mean that the thinking doesn't happen at all.

because if you have too many townreads that's practically like lining up lynches. you don't call the entire scumteam on D1, and you also don't narrow the pool to 3.000001 people. and early townreads are bad because they have a very weak basis, and he kept hanging on to them.

People have different styles. I know you've seen players who call the entire scumteam on D1 (or attempt to). What early townreads did Wisdom maintain for early townread reasons?

jumping votes is scummy imo. townies don't do that, they pick their target and pressure him until they decide A or B. it's like voting everyone in unlimited++. I can say that because he failed to answer practiacly every question I directd\ed at him.

playstyle difference again.

buddying is ok. excessive is not.

why is excessive buddying not okay?

[Nachomamma8]

I also liked shos' last wall. Minus the girlfriend-bit (:mad: Who is she? )

not even a little bit surprised.

[Nachomamma8]

ok.
I took a random, long post by whiskers. really, random, didn't even read it. I brambled bullshit in caps over it and voted. whiskers was at the time practically the only person standing beside me when everyone was raining votes on me iirc.

that was in the middle of a discussion with wisdom. after it, he immediately voted me. no words. no questions. no thinking. but okay, who knows.
later, when I pointed it out, he said that vote wasn't related at all to that post. coincidentally it was one after the other, but really, it was that he was not suspecting whiskers anymore.

thing is, wisdom posted many times between whiskers' last post and that "unvote". so why then? why not earlier? smells like a lie.

That's fair. What about the vote on me?

[Nachomamma8]

I mean people tend to townread big walls.

[Nachomamma8]

You joke about it but it's totally something that happens.

[Nachomamma8]

wisdom why are you ignoring matt?

[Nachomamma8]

mason buddy going paranoid on you is the type of thing that seems pretty worthy of a response.

[Nachomamma8]

I prefer her push on Whiskers over yours on shos actually.

Do you think shos is town?

[Nachomamma8]

Actually, can we talk about your read on shos? You were reading him as scummy (initially), then townie (no reason for switch), then scummy because he said he loved you in all caps (what? this was the entire basis for the read on him when you ISOed him. one sentence, all caps is your entire read on SHOS, which is pretty fucking horrible), and now town because wall. Why did you like his wall?

[Nachomamma8]

yeah thats what really set me off, especially because I knew my reason was silly and he buddied right away. I just think it's very statistically crazy that he would just so happen to townread you for legit reason the moment I did for a completely different, silly reason

[Nachomamma8]

I also liked shos' last wall. Minus the girlfriend-bit (:mad: Who is she? )

not even a little bit surprised.

What's this? A scummy snipe?
Expand on this please. Why were you not surprised?

Didn't surprise me because a couple of people said they liked shos because wall and your shos read seems to follow general consensus pretty consistently.

[Nachomamma8]

Wisdom?

[Nachomamma8]

Why did you like shos's wall?

[Nachomamma8]

And why do you have no response to MattP's townread on you dying a very very quick death?

Especially when you just got done saying things like this:

Now this game has lots of people who know me, so you won't be getting any support. Maybe one or two will get paranoid for a while, but that's it. So your choices are either to accept that you are wrong and I am town, and move on to actually scumhunt instead of whining about how you don't like my play, or keep whining and getting scumread in the process.

[Nachomamma8]

Because this sort of scumread on me comes from people who don't know me and think that my antitown playstyle equals scum. I explained that already.

I know, I was hoping you'd go a little more in depth. Attacking antitown things is also one of the easiest things you can possibly do as scum and I think shos knows better.

Because I won't defend a townread on me.

What?

[Nachomamma8]

Nachomamma has been whiteknighting Malakittens.

Discuss.

True!

Nachomamma has been the most subtle in trying to move votes to the shos wagon.

Discuss.

I'm not being very subtle at the moment.

@Nachomamma: I liked shos' wall because everything in it made sense.
Why are you acting surprised about people liking it?

I didn't like it very much. People keep saying that they like it. People have a tendency to townread big walls because :effort: is generally very protown and it feels shitty to lynch someone who is putting a lot of time and effort into the game. I am trying to get more people to talk about the content instead of vague approvals because I think the content is pretty weak.

[Nachomamma8]

I'll get into more detail later but it revolves around Nachomomma townreading and cross-defending Malakittens for no good reasons.
It also revolves around my scumread on Mala, which put me in a position of being more critical of Nacho's arguments, and I just couldn't help but notice their weakness. The scumread on Malla will ironically enough probably be wrong, but still, it got me Nacho in an indirect way.

Respond to my Mala-town case, then.

But admit you were being more subtle before!

I was being more subtle before!

Yet in your own answer you are not talking about the content. I just asked you what you think about it, and all you can say "content-wise" is: you didn't like it very much. Well, wow! Bravo! You should become a book critic.
I just said I found that everything in shos' wall makes sense, from Town POV.
The burden of proof is on you, to show me where it doesn't make sense.

All of these things that he attacked are anti-town things and not necessarily scummy things; too much surface scumhunting shows a lack of thinking past a certain point, and deep thought processes (aka conspiracy theories, rabbit hole bits) are the strongest reasons to call someone town.

[Nachomamma8]

Wisdom, why ooba and Mirari town?

[Nachomamma8]

Because I liked their posts and didn't think they were coming from scum.

Thanks.

[Nachomamma8]

... wtf is that, Nacho? Why are you playing like this?

I continue to reach out to me and you ignore my reachouts. I have no idea why you would do as much as either alignment.

[Nachomamma8]

he's probably just high and saying weird things wisdom

[Nachomamma8]

THERE WE GO

[Nachomamma8]

Where is that now? Who are you pushing?

Right now, I'm pushing shos. I started out pushing shos because he felt weird, took a backseat in the pushing since MattP was taking the main push. There are a few players that I will take a backseat to, MattP is one of them. There were a lot of middle things that I missed when I went through a lower activity period, didn't feel like posting that much. Right now, I'm pushing shos because he's getting an easy pass for words words words which was pretty much the first thing I learned to do when I was a little scumbag. I am pushing Grimgroove because a few things Grimgroove said aren't meshing for me, although it's really really hard not to townread his high posting. Mollie is being held at an arm's length despite this game being a stronger showing from mollie-scum than she would ever be before; Desp had some decent points in his initial push and mollie shut him down in a way that I didn't really like so much. I think Penguin is probably a strong choice for scum, but I also think she's a default vote too often and is one of those people I feel more confident reading Day 2/Day 3. Mirari/ooba still stay on my watchlist, ooba moreso than Mirari after Mirari's "ooba and I can read each other bit" which I liked a lot for some reason. I am pushing you a bit because you're behaving extraordinarily weird around Matt, although you have the tendency to make weird posts sometimes.

Who are you pushing? Even your shos vote was sheeping Matt and you are not really trying to push shos, to encourage us to lynch him. You are also not really scumhunting for anyone else. You are very passive and just going with the flow of the game instead of taking initiatives.

My shos vote isn't just sheeping Matt anymore. I am scumhunting other people (see above), and I went with the flow of the game when the flow was good to me and stopped going with the flow when it stopped being good to me. What's wrong with that?

Not to mention, I didn't like your defending of me earlier. I expected you to be slightly more paranoid about me. You've never caught me, after all.

I trust early sync ups a lot; I know the feeling and MattP definitely had the feeling. I didn't like the initial reasons for scumreading you (moving when he did) because I could see pretty easily why you moved. Does that mean I trust you completely? Hell no.

[Nachomamma8]

Yes.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not ready for a shos lynch though.

[Nachomamma8]

Mala.

[Nachomamma8]

Town case on her still applies, and the push on penguin means that 1) they definitely aren't scum together and 2) she's more in the spotlight than she's comfortable being as scum. It has good conviction.

[Nachomamma8]

that is a shitton of hedge there nacho

Did you not expect it?

[Nachomamma8]

Nothing.

[Nachomamma8]

Doesn't need to do anything else, though.

[Nachomamma8]

So it's okay for her to just push one player and disregard the rest of the game? Really?

This is something I never expected you to say. But yeah, it is.

[Nachomamma8]

Even thought that's not what she's doing but w/e.

[Nachomamma8]

That looks fake, Nacho. You never expected me to say that? How so? If you are referring to my tunnels, even when I have them, I don't ignore the rest of the game. But even if I did, are we talking about me here? Does Mala play anything like me?

How is what she is doing ok? She is only responding to Desp, she is only spamming "lynch peng" and she is doing nothing. How are you not doubting your read on her at all given such play?

Wisdom, I was teasing you again because tunneling. I would not say mala has been ignoring the rest of the game, but her penguin tunnel is the only significant thing she has done this game. I don't think Mala plays like you at all. As scum, she plays pretty much the complete opposite to you. So, when there are similarities between your town game and her current game, she's already more likely to be town than scum.

[Nachomamma8]

@Grim: Face my demons? You missed a post that you based the majority of your case on not existing (that is, Wisdom having called you scum)I pointed out the post, and I explained everything in your large posts directed at me. I also pointed out I wasn't lying about going on a break

Yes, that is all very good, but I was referring to room 876 and obviously was not talking about the stuff that has been rendered irrelevant thanks to your briljant replies.

But you're not talking yourself out of that slip with Mala. Because you didn't use logic in that one. You used a play on emotions and I caught it. You're good at using logic against people, but you're lacking in the emo-use department.

I KNOW you wouldn't make a threat like that and I KNOW MAlakittens would not ignore such a threat unless it came from a scumpartner.

I don't think this is true. I share a similar tell (the blacklist tell!) and it frustrates me when I see it as well. I don't necessarily share the same belief, but I see where Matt is coming from. I don't understand how Mala is supposed to react to that one, though.

[Nachomamma8]

On iPad, haven't read the whole game. I will more an likely comment n it when I get to it.

[Nachomamma8]

Oh look, I quoted something of Nacho's that didn't give me a townread on Mala. What a shame.

Nacho, I'm asking you for your strongest read not to catch you in something. I have 6 strong townreads. I'd like 7. I think that's a good number. Please help me get there.

Pedit: I have morals.

Guide me through Mala's thought process as scum with coming up with the Actor gambit. I consider myself as a pretty creative person in coming up with wacky shit to do as scum to get town read but I can't say I can think of a person who would think of that sort of thing unless it was coming from an honest place. I can also get into more complete reasons later, but that is the point that feels the best to me about Mala-town.

[Nachomamma8]

I mean I guess she could have legit thought you were an actor as scum but that seems strange.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm going to start with replying to what Nachomamma said:

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Actor

What I thought you possibly were.

My mind is not right at the moment. ._.

This rabbit hole theory is crazy town and not really a scumMala move at all. It is also completely consistent with earlier posting:

It's a random thought. Hypothesizing about a completely random role being in the game based on an RVS-joke is not alignment-indicative, no matter how you see it.
What is objectively verifiable though, is that this theory, or this kind of thinking, does not remind me of a scumhunt-driven process. All Mala did was make an association between MattP's early intent to hammer and the Actor-role.
Why would Town care to think about what kind of town a person would be, let alone be so specific as to go delve into the role of something that seems rather rare to me.

I have a sight feeling on MattP, but I need to see more, but I can probably see him being town.

So unless you think that Mala-scum came up with the idea at the beginning of the game to suspect someone of being an Actor who didn't RVS vote from her first post, crumb it initially, then react immediately when they put a vote down, then she's probably town.

The random thought itself is easy enough to make it look townish, because it's null to begin with. Being consistently null doesn't make one town.
Malakittens may have come up with this idea in the beginning yes, scum needs certain grounds to start attacking someone. If Mala could consider the Actor-perspective as a reasonable basis to suspect MattP as town, she could just as well do it as scum. The fact she openly dropped the idea later doesn't make her more town either, it's just a realization that it's not the kind of argument that gets you very far. This realization is also null.

It's your tunneling in general that pisses me off regardless of my alignment in any past game we played. I guess you have a point you haven't tunneled me as town, but right now you're tunneling on town me.

This also struck me as a wonderfully town reaction. I don't think Mala-scum would say something that was false and easily proven to be false and then back down so easily like this.

This is really bullshit. Scum also makes factual mistakes, not always because they intend to do so. Of course they'll back down easily from it once someone finds out. If the wouldn't they'd be stringing themselves up. Giving Mala townpoints for backing down easily is nonsensical.
And I'm not so sure it was a factual mistake, because she's still trying to stretch it. "It's your tunneling in general that pisses me off" doesn't ring true to me.

It's part of her scum-meta to do this, but you're ignoring it and treating her like town because she's only focusing on any interactions that's coming at her instead of taking the bull by the horns and looking at other posts like I know town-Peng to do so.

Her push on penguin is also a pretty clear effort to sort her out, and it's a type of attack based on a scumread in a previous game that feels pretty fucking genuine. I always like pushes based on meta authority and this is no exception.

Also liked the reach out to mollie even after she found an easy reason to call mollie town

.

Explain the thing in bold to me? How are the two things you describe here mutually exclusive for scum?

And I saw no town-intentions in the push on penguin. At the start, this was based on TWO posts by penguin. 2. That's it. She then proceeded to give it extra weight by the meta-arguments you see there. I've seen town-peng too and I've rarely (I even think, never, but should check) seen her take the bull by the horns.

What I see is a clear effort to redirect our attention elsewhere. That's what scum does. Of course you can expect them to give reasons with them, but it's not because penguin may have given her some by her reactionary playstyle, that Malakittens' intentions were good from the start. I'm convinced they aren't.

The Nachomamma townread is intentionally based on loose sand. I don't think a genuine MAlakittens would give him townpoints for defensiveness. This is evident because of the word "but". Normally she wouldn't consider Nacho being defensive as town, "but"...

This was extremely nitpicky; seemed like the type of thing scum would attack but can't find town having conviction in.

I don't want to make this about me, but I am known to be quite nitpicky at times. And I find that a very strange comment coming from you, whose tagline is "Devil is in the details".

But this isn't nitpicky. Malakittens is townreading you, despite of things. Not because of things.

Nacho is being quite defensive, but I think he's probably town for it.

This is not the way a townread generally works and feels extremely forced.
Why does defensiveness give him townpoints?
Why didn't you say: Nacho is being defensive, so he's probably town?

These things do matter. That "but" is a lack-of-genuinity-tell.

That argument is bad. There's nothing remotely special about that kind of bitching. Even if he didn't do it before (as if you'd remember something like him NOT doing something like that before), it's not as crucial as you make it out to be. Maybe he learned a thing or two in the meanwhile, leading him to be suspicious of early townreads? MAybe it's the nature of your particular townreads that don't sit well with him? Maybe, maybe, maybe, so many possible explanations. Yet you focus on one and turn it into a crucial "argument".

He uses Mala noting that shos didn't dislike early townreads in the past as a point against Mala because "shos might have changed". Yes, shos might have changed but nothing at all points to that so Mala shouldn't have to make that assumption when she sees something different, and it's weird he expects her to make that assumption.

You have missed to point completely. My point was not to have Malakittens make that certain assumption of shos having changed. The point was getting Mala out of making another assumption that was way too particular (and convenient) given at we were looking at, because there's so many other assumptions abound regarding shos' stance towards those townreads that are at least equally reasonable.

I'm not sure if I'll have time for a full ISO. I'll try and see how far I get.

Actor response: the normal scum response in seeing an early intent to hammer (or the early surface response to seeing that intent to hammer) would be to call it scummy because it's opportunistic and espousing an early lynch. The normal town response to seeing an early intent to hammer (or the first deeper level) is to declare it a reaction test and then call Matt townie for it. The approach Mala took was to decide that he was a role that scum very very very rarely had, and then have him at strong town for it, then go "oh shit I thought you were something else" when he put an RVS vote down. Compare this to Whiskers response to me. Surface level is "oh, he's being defensive and thus scummy". Deeper level is "oh, reaction testing in RVS and thus townie". Deeper deeper level is "he's saying defensiveness is townie to test the waters and then being defensive after it is accepted as a town tell in order to be read as town". Is the initial situation that Whiskers/Mala are commenting on null? Yes. But the reaction to it is not.

I responded to most of this earlier, but you bring up that her dropping the theory immediately is null. It adds credence that this is an actual thought process Mala was having; remember that scum are usually less transparent about these sorts of things and usually aren't as aware of things like this because they have to fake every thought process they have. Mala scum knows that if Matt is an actor, she will know it soon enough. She knows that she could probably exploit the hammer thing as someone scummy, make a push on him for it. Instead she thinks that he is an actor and confirmed town for it; doesn't out it immediately in case he is hiding it for some reason.

first of all, Mala has replaced out of games before (as town) because it pisses her off. So the line that rings disingenuous to you is likely true regardless of her actual alignment. Secondly, I don't think Mala scum says something like that in an attempt to discredit wisdom with that much conviction unless she knew what she was saying was true, or had some ring of truth to it. And it wasn't just that she backed down, but instead how she backed down. When scum back down, there's usually a bit of squirming, a bit of awkward, a bit of ickyness. The back down here was clean and showed no loss of conviction, which I liked a lot.

Mala already was calling mollie town for reasons. Mala later got a little paranoid, reached out to mollie in the hopes that mollie would help her reaffirm her town read. Mala as scum already has the mollie read taken care of, she's going to attempt to buddy with her and mislynch elsewhere. Instead of just leaving the read static, there's a clearer thought process on it, initial town read, reaffirm to read, stale townread; it shows that she is legitimately trying to read mollie, which I like considering I expect to see a pretty good sorting process between those two and look, here it is. What I am telling you ago Mala's style is that she is not a strong redirect style player as scum. Unless shos was a god tier power role, she probably wouldn't be trying that hard to save him, and she sure as hell wouldn't be setting him up to die tomorrow after Peng if she felt be was important enough to stick her head out this far for. Who cares if the tunnel was started early?

She agreed that I was being defensive when people were calli me scum for it. She said but because she believed the defensiveness was a town tell of mine, not a scum tell. So she's town reading me, despite of others thinking differently. How is this scummy?

Who cares if it's not the normal way that townread are formed? Normal ways are generally easy to predict and easy to fake.

I don't understand your last point or why it's significant.

[Nachomamma8]

Your Whiskers read is terrible too. He was pushing mollie because he didn't like her attitude. Just like he pushed me, just like he pushed Matt. It's his way of scumhunting. Nothing to do with how you are pushing penguin.

You're either scum, or you have paid such little attention to the game that you don't know what's what. Or both, which is what I'm going with.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mala

Could you compare what Mala has done here to what she's done in any town game and tell me why what she's provided here hasn't been up to snuff?

[Nachomamma8]

I am currently convinced you are scum, so no, I want people to be convinced as well.

I skimmed them - the felt awful imo, but just saying it's awful is not useful in shit. I will only elaborate when I *really* find time; I'm posting here just inbetween things and only reading in my phone so meh.

I definitely may vote for a mala lynch over you, in case deadline pushes, if that matters.

Deadlines in two weeks but the fact you're already looking to compromise is scummy as hell.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't understand penguins read on Mala or Matt.

Ooba posting remains low energy which makes me sad.

[Nachomamma8]

I have read a big part of the ISO linked to in 85. I saw that there too wisdom spammed the thread and wasn't as pro-town as you'd expect. This does not mean that wisdom is town - rather, it means that it is going to be a PITA to read him either way.

Wisdom is asking a LOT of questions in this game here. some of them are actually good, I admit, but some (and other lines that go with them) are just terrible. So what I'm going to do is keep wisdom in my scum pile, but not for today's lynch. surely there's some role out there that can solve wisdom's alignment to us. So I'll keep my focus from now on until D2 on other people, barring something too wild happening, of course.

I have lots of things to read now and not too much time, and I wanna do it today so that tomorrow I can comment from work. so pardon me ignoring current activity and going 7-8 pages back.

I don't understand your thought process in ignoring wisdom today. He's asking a lot of questions so not today's lynch?

[Nachomamma8]

@824:regarding the WKing, I really don't think that's alignment related. people do that as both alignemnt(even me); scum do it for cred, town do it because they actually believe in their read. so yeah, he's been WKing. if Mala flips scum, then we should take a careful look at Nacho. this is likely imo, btw.

and I don't see how nacho was 'subtle' lol x) he's been pushing me quite directly. but his push doesn't look like scum, imo. I mean, it's not ugly, irrational stupid things like wisdom did during the tunneltime; it's sorta-ok questions(btw I remember some need answers now that I've seen wisdom's other game). The bad thing that I find in these was that he, somehow, managed to disagree with me on ALL the points there. Or at least say that they're not alignement telling or something, iirc. so anyway, TLDR is I don't see him scummy, but not townie too. I'll probably have to ISO some people here to get a read on them. speaking of which - did AA9 get in here already?

p34 incoming

If you can show me any points in your case that are in wisdoms scumgame and prove it, thn I will sheep you.

[Nachomamma8]

I could quote every line Mala said and say why I don't like it, but I don't see the point. The point is Mala is not town. This is not Mala-town, and every time I read her posts, I can't help but think I'm reading scum posts.


Since I purposefully let it unanswered before, I will answer it now. I unvoted Mala because I thought for a second that she was willing to talk with me and try convincing me I'm wrong about her, something that she doesn't do as scum. As scum, she knows that when I catch her, she is not likely to change my mind no matter what she does, so she usually resorts to ignoring me and hoping I'll get distracted by someone else acting scummy. I stated that she can join the townpile to she how she will take it - will she try to work with me? Will she continue explaining herself to me? Will she find my sudden switch on her scummy and suspect me?
What was the answer? She took my 'townread' and ran.

The other reason was to see who would sheep me. I was very happy to see Desp continuing pushing his scumread on her despite my action, and not very happy seeing Matt stating he agrees that she is town.


I cannot see her being town. Not when her one suspect, the one she has been pushing since the beginning, finally posts, and she completely ignores it and responds to irrelevant things. Not when she is trying to make shos look bad like she's doing. Not when her reason for not scumreading me is "I don't remember his scumgame, but Im not going to change my read on him because this isn't it.". ...Really?

I really don't want to let shos go today, but I really really don't want to let Mala go today.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Mala

You have completely lost me.

[Nachomamma8]

Because of something CrashTextDummy once told me: he's only made posts that are easily fakeable for scum. Most of his posts hint at him being town, but nothing screams it.

And I just really disliked 1092. It's either something that belongs in a game theory topic, or in his head. But not like this. What does it add to the game? I was talking about whispers before, but this post SCREAMS that MattP is very carefully molding his pro-town image. Problem with this post: it implies his long-term survival in this game (because this is not a short-term plan). This implication is at odds with the impression he's giving as being a strong town-presence.

And even though I was high, I still think I'm on to something when it comes to his connection with Malakittens. But that only matters after Malakittens flips, which I feel is a piority over MattP's flip.

I can see maybe why you would not have Matt in strong townreads because nothing fake able. But suspecting him based on a single theory is bad. Who in this game has posted unfakeable things?

[Nachomamma8]

How does it have anything to do with his long-term survival? He just wanted to try it right then, which he did. He didn't say that he's planning to do it later in the game.

That said, you might have a point. Matt has only played twice with me, one was my third game onsite and in the other was my worst scumgame ever. He doesn't know anything about me, yet he has been very weirdly confident in me being town. It's something that has been troubling me.

He has been? Wasn't there that point where he ended up voting you and ring suspicious of you and stuff?

[Nachomamma8]

starting on 41.

@Nacho: can you link me to games where mala has replaced out as town?? that is such an incredibly easy thing to fake that I really want to see if it holds any water.
and no, me that is not me compromising, that is me saying that I'm not going to hold my vote eternally and I keep an open mind, because yes, I have more than just one scumread. This is not scummy at all. ESPECIALLY considering the wall I made just about a piss later, in which I voted mala. and that vote stayed, now that I'm flipping it on wisdom and off wisdom - mala is a steady scumread for almost the entire game, I think.

goddammit mala you're a girl. that's like AtE automatically for me meh, I'm sorry hun, but you saying how on that matter X and tht one Y doesn't change the facts. I'd be glada if you could link me to both of them if nacho doesn't or if you get it first.

oh man, AA9...we need a replacement guys.. my wall is right...

pedit: I did not mean it was buddying, lol, the opposite. I was saying what happened to the buddying in the time when everyone voted me for no reason. I can dig it out for you if you need. that quote from 1135 is probably something I missed the importance thereof, but now I can see it. you guys buddied hard when it was convenient, when you all just piled on me and deflected anything else. now you really don't know each other.

consistency=\=dependent on situation. ==> someone is faking.

Maniacal is the game I remember it from. You'll have to do the rest of your searching yourself until I get to a computer.

[Nachomamma8]

@nacho
Yeah, right after everyone and their dog commented on how this buddying is weird. What's better than act a little suspicious to dispel that?

From what I remembered, Matt townread shos for a dumb reason, you townread shos immediately after, cue paranoia train.

[Nachomamma8]

You're still tunneling. Care to compromise on something that isn't a mala wagon? Like shos? (hint hint)

[Nachomamma8]

He's approaching too crazy to be scum levels and honestly I lose faith in his wagon every time I log on and see 5 new posts from him but Mala wagon doesn't feel like the answer.

[Nachomamma8]

Nope Nacho, we're lynching Mala. I'm not going to repeat my mistake of compromising and letting her live.

These are things people say when they are irrationally tunneling someone.

[Nachomamma8]

Bulbazak: "I will not make the pitoli mistake again!"

Please don't railroad me into being the damage control kid, I hate playing that game because it fucks my reads sideways.

[Nachomamma8]

But I don't like at all how you try to argue that I am tunneling, especially when you've seen me being right about Mala before. If anything, you are the one who is unreasonably convinced that Mala must be town.

Grim might just be right about you being her buddy.

I saw you were right about Mala while I was calling her scum once. Do you remember how I reacted in that game?

[Nachomamma8]

No. I went I am not convinced mala is scum and pushed elsewhere. Currently I am telling you that I have a strong townread on Mala and please stop pushing her, similar to how I defended Sakura. I occasionally am bothered by your incredible tunnels because you tunnel so fucking hard, but I don't directly interfere and try to shut them down unless you're pushing on a strong townread of mine. You're pushing on a strong townread of mine. Stop. Push somewhere else.

[Nachomamma8]

Find a different push to make.
The small points are that your charges on her for not producing content is bullshit (she has done more in this Day 1 than she did in three days of multiball open game), her conviction is good, actor thing is still a town tell, her tunnel on Peng is still good, she is genuine as hell and engaged for once. You are reading her as scum because no content and ignoring you?

[Nachomamma8]

Mala we are on page 39 and you still have done nothing. It's not just this time. I shouldn't have to ask you to provide content, you should be doing it on your own.

Yeah okay. I have interacted with most of the active players besides {Whiskers/Nacho}. I am chasing my strongest scum read, but that means nothing to you, apparently. This is Penguin's scum game, but you're not seeing it. As I stated last time I chased her when she was scum she shrughed me off very similar to what's she's doing now. She's not posting, but coasting. This IS her scum game. When she was town and I did go after she reacted differently. She was engaging most of the players and this game she is not doing that at all. Plus I noticed in her town game she moves her votes around faster than she does in her scum games. All of which she's not doing.

I am leaving Mollie alone because I don't want a repeat of our NY game. I will only interact with her if necessary. If I see a post by her I don't like I'll calll her out about it.

MattP has been an early town read for me. I really thought he had a vote restriction on him, but as I said our playstyles mesh together when we are both the same alignment, but when one of us are at difference of alignment we are like dynamite. I really also like his posts and he feels town to me.

Desperado is a bit different because I misread him in NY and the rest of my games I was either scum with him or scum against him. He has no qualms about bussing or distancing himself from a partner so I need to take a wait and see approach when it comes to him. {I know that's not enough for some people, but I need more time with him.}

Wisdom I think however you're town.

ArcAngel9 is destroying my town read on her by not posting, but she's been known to do it as both alignments. So you can't really take much into reading her as either alignment when she lurks. I know she changed her playstyle in one newbie and micro game we played together and I really enjoyed it there. Part of me wishes she would go back to it.

Shos and Grim is kinda hard to give a pure read on them. Both of them are buddying each other hard; overlapping with each others reads. Gut says one is scum and one is town; wagon says Shos might be town, but doesn't tell me what Grim is. Facts say this is too obvious for scum partners. So either one is town and the other is scum or one is town and the other is town.

I want to hear more on Ooba and Mirari. Ooba I want to hear your thoughts on Mirari saying that he can read you well because you both live together.
Mirari I got a question for you; can you back up any credibility of being able to read Ooba in the past due to this.

As for Whiskers; I don't agree with him chasing Mollie at all. Whiskers is sorta doing what I'm doing to Penguin, but has actual posts from Mollie to back up reads. Mollie unlike Penguin

isn't

coasting at this point. Whisker's 328 in regards to the meta post feels fake because when Town-Whiskers just went "Whatever, whatever" to meta, but this it feels like he's overreacting and it's fake. I don't see the 1v1 with him and Mollie as a town v town. I don't see it as a s v s either. It's a t v s 1v1.
In other words; leaning scum on Whiskers. If someone wants to explain why they disagree with this read of mine, please go ahead because I'm not really seeing Whiskers as town based on this ISO.

Last time mala was scum she said "I am doing things wisdom".
This time she gave you a read wall.

Is this doing nothing, Wisdom? Or was this a reach out you couldn't see because your in the midst of a tunnel?

[Nachomamma8]

okay nacho is town

nacho I really do think that wis is better at reading mala than you tho

He certainly can. But you remember how unsure I was of mala town read in monks and masons, right? Versus me being sure of Malascum elsewhere, or sure of mala town elsewhere. I know when a read I have is strong and I know when it's based on leanings. This isn't based on leanings.

[Nachomamma8]

No, that was Mala giving her reads after I said she is doing nothing.

Repeat that? You called her out for doing nothing, and then she... Did something? What did you expect to be the town reaction to you calling her out for doing nothing?

[Nachomamma8]

Because the scum reaction is "ignore wisdom and kill him during the night", but this clearly isn't that.

[Nachomamma8]

Did mala in mentor mentee do things?

[Nachomamma8]

And also I'm not hearing an answer to my question. What town reaction were you expecting? Because the way your current answer is framed makes it sound like there is no right answer, which would make your read a distinctly tunnely one.

[Nachomamma8]

Seriously, she is pushing penguin, right? She is like 100% sure penguin is scum. penguin posts a wall after days of inactivity, and Mala completely ignores it and responds to completely irrelevant things (that might hurt her image if she didn't). Then after I prod her and ask her why she is not responding to it, she decided to do so.

Why are you ignoring this? Why the hell would she not respond to it the first chance she got?

Because she didn't feel like it?
Maybe she saw a big wall and was like "oh hey that's a big wall I should probably respond to it later" and then she did respond to it later!

[Nachomamma8]

I don't see why Malascum would refuse to respond to penguins wall. Do you think she just couldn't? Because she later demonstrated she could. Do you think... She didn't think it was important for her image to respond to?

[Nachomamma8]

I didn't expect a town reaction because her doing nothing was already something not town.
I guess a town reaction could have been explaining why she has not done stuff.
Instead she tried to lie about having actually done stuff and she procceeded to do stuff right there and then. That's a scum reaction.

So the only way she could respond is by going "you're right wisdom I haven't done anything" even though as town by that point she would have a strong townread and what feels like caught scum. That feels stupid. Meanwhile,no will stress again that her scum MO is not doing anything. When you are pushing her, she ignores you because she knows she can kill you and she knows that we won't listen to you because tunneling. Here she REACHES OUT TO YOU *and* DOES STUFF (two things scum mala doesn't do, your words and not mine) and you call it a scum reaction... Why?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't see why Malascum would refuse to respond to penguins wall. Do you think she just couldn't? Because she later demonstrated she could. Do you think... She didn't think it was important for her image to respond to?

Because it required caring. As town, she would care to respond immediately. As scum, she didn't care. It could wait.

She responded immediately to you telling her she wasn't doing anything with the reads wall. As scum, she probably wouldn't care.

(oh hey did you see what I did there)

[Nachomamma8]

How does she reach out to me? How is it any different than how she "reached out to me" in the other games I described?
And what stuff did she do? She has still done nothing. Providing a bunch of fake reads isn't doing stuff.

She reaches out to you by showing you her thoughts when you tell her she is doing nothing instead of just saying she's doing stuff like she usually does.

"providing reads" is kind of the definition of doing stuff.

[Nachomamma8]

Since I have reminded her twice that her ignoring me is a scumtell, she did not have that option.

She kind of does have that option. She always has the door open to call it alignment neutral, since you don't have any experience with tunneling her as town.

[Nachomamma8]

Hey wisdom. What has grim done this game?

[Nachomamma8]

It doesn't matter what she can call it, dude. She knows that if I tunnel on her, she cannot convince me otherwise. No matter how she calls what, it won't help her. She has to avoid letting me think she is scum altogether.

Grim is town enough, and I don't understand how that's any relevant. He is not Mala. I have different tells to read him.

Your case makes less and less sense every time I respond to it.

I didn't ask grim's alignment. I asked what he's done.

[Nachomamma8]

It amazes me that the case that is being peddled around right now is "townies don't need to be prodded they produce content by themselves" with an AA9 in the mix.

[Nachomamma8]

Nachomamma is kitten-whipped. Rarely have I seen a knight in shining armour fight so valiantly against reason.

Every time you make a post like this I die a little inside. What is Wisdoms case against Mala? Did you ever make your post against mala or did you just respond to my town case? Why didn't you respond to me when I challenged you on your Matt read?

[Nachomamma8]

I don't see why Malascum would refuse to respond to penguins wall. Do you think she just couldn't? Because she later demonstrated she could. Do you think... She didn't think it was important for her image to respond to?

when you are scum, and make cases or something, you need to fabricate stuff. fake stuff. when your supposed scumread posts such a good post like the wall PA posted, you HAVE to raise, or fold. you can't just call. so ignoring it is a good way of going under the radar. this is s scum technic that I use a lot - simply ignore posts that I don't feel comfortable answering.

I didn't expect a town reaction because her doing nothing was already something not town.
I guess a town reaction could have been explaining why she has not done stuff.
Instead she tried to lie about having actually done stuff and she procceeded to do stuff right there and then. That's a scum reaction.

So the only way she could respond is by going "you're right wisdom I haven't done anything" even though as town by that point she would have a strong townread and what feels like caught scum. That feels stupid. Meanwhile,no will stress again that her scum MO is not doing anything. When you are pushing her, she ignores you because she knows she can kill you and she knows that we won't listen to you because tunneling. Here she REACHES OUT TO YOU *and* DOES STUFF (two things scum mala doesn't do, your words and not mine) and you call it a scum reaction... Why?

even if she told me 'I am having some real-life issues and I will get to that tomorrow' I would respond differently. honesty is key; town players have no reason not to be honest, entirely transparent. scum HAVE to fake. this is just scum behaviour.

1) sorry, why was penguin post a good one and incredibly hard to attack? Because I don't think I would have a problem attacking that wall.

2) she didn't have real life issues. She responded immediately. Why is that worse?

[Nachomamma8]

Reminder to self: 1013

Wisdom what do you think this is?

[Nachomamma8]

Seriously, she is pushing penguin, right? She is like 100% sure penguin is scum. penguin posts a wall after days of inactivity, and Mala completely ignores it and responds to completely irrelevant things (that might hurt her image if she didn't). Then after I prod her and ask her why she is not responding to it, she decided to do so.

Why are you ignoring this? Why the hell would she not respond to it the first chance she got?

Because she didn't feel like it?
Maybe she saw a big wall and was like "oh hey that's a big wall I should probably respond to it later" and then she did respond to it later!

Lalalalalala

[Nachomamma8]

Maybe you should read the shit shos posts to egg on your tunnel instead of ignoring it completely.

[Nachomamma8]

instead of just saying she's doing stuff like she usually does.

Spoiler: yeah right

I'm hunting people it's not like I have her as my only scum read and it's not like I'm not looking for town reads either.

Lies. I'm not only responding to Desp. You're kidding me right?

See, she reponds like this, refuses to be helpful, and then I have to accept she is town. I can't.

I am being helpful; you're the one refusing to believe what I'm saying isn't helpful.

Especially this last quote. Tell me how it's any different from this or this.

It's cool that I point out that she did something completely different from this and you ignore that and quote other posts.

[Nachomamma8]

Grim, what is Wisdom's case on Mala? Summarize it for me, please.

[Nachomamma8]

@GG: kitten-whipped? what does that mean? :/

I'm under the assumption that Nachomamma has some reasons that go beyond this game to want to extend so much credit to Malakittens. And according to Wisdom, he's gone and done it before, strengthening me in my assumption.
The level of Mala-defending by Nachomamma has reached ridiculous levels. Like I've noted before: he did more defending of MAlakittens than Malakittens herself. This cannot be considered normal.

Wisdom as town with an incorrect read occasionally produces incredibly shitty results because he cannot take his blinders off and he cannot defend himself the next day or take a proper reboot because his tunneling is actually that bad. Wisdom town often says to people to stop him on their shitty tunnels before they happen. Does he ever listen? Rarely. Am I very very tired with seeing it happen? Yes. Why is defending townreads strongly a bad thing?

[Nachomamma8]

She did not do anything different. She is acting exactly like she did in her other scum games. Which I have already explained.

You said she ignored you and didn't do shit. I showed where she did the opposite of both of those things. I showed that a while ago. You still have not rebutted that point. You haven't rebutted a lot of points.

[Nachomamma8]

Nachomamma is kitten-whipped. Rarely have I seen a knight in shining armour fight so valiantly against reason.

Every time you make a post like this I die a little inside.

It's what the truth does to a lot of people. Don't worry, I'll help you get through it.

What is Wisdoms case against Mala?

The thing you've just been discussing with him?

Did you ever make your post against mala or did you just respond to my town case?

I have made some posts against Mala, and my response to your MAla-towncase was one of them. I did promise a full ISO-case on her, but I'm not sure if I can be bothered anymore.

Why didn't you respond to me when I challenged you on your Matt read?

Maybe I missed it? At least I don't remember it. Where did that happen?

All you seem to be doing is challenging reads. Where are your own cases?

4) earlier. I asked why Matt was scum other than the theory post. Not fake able is why someone isn't strong town, but it isn't why someone is strong scum on D1.

[Nachomamma8]

Grim, what is Wisdom's case on Mala? Summarize it for me, please.

Puppetmaster, you have much to learn. If you want the puppets to dance, give them a pleasant tune.
In other words: Your boring request is denied. Wisdom just summarized it himself, do you want me to copy-paste it, or what?

I have my own aerguments against MAlakittens. Wouldn't it be more interesting to have me rehash those instead?

Nacho usually plays a pleasant tune. He doesn't play a pleasant tune when he is frustrated. I want you to summarize Wisdom case because you said I was defending Mala without logic and wisdoms case is severely lacking in the whole logic department.

[Nachomamma8]

Shos, you made that statement before AA9 was replaced. Are you psychic or something?

[Nachomamma8]

So, ready steady go:

Mala is scum because she responded immediately and produced content when Wisdom accused her of not producing content. This is a contradiction to her normal scum meta of ignoring Wisdom and not doing anything.

Mala is also scum because she ignored the penguin case until Wisdom prodded her. This is because Mala cares less as scum; she cares more as town and wouldn't leave a big wall to respond to until later.

[Nachomamma8]

So, ready steady go:

Mala is scum because she responded immediately and produced content when Wisdom accused her of not producing content. This is a contradiction to her normal scum meta of ignoring Wisdom and not doing anything.

Mala is also scum because she ignored the penguin case until Wisdom prodded her. This is because Mala cares less as scum; she cares more as town and wouldn't leave a big wall to respond to until later.

Grim, any flaws in this?

[Nachomamma8]

She did not do anything different. She is acting exactly like she did in her other scum games. Which I have already explained.

You said she ignored you and didn't do shit. I showed where she did the opposite of both of those things. I showed that a while ago. You still have not rebutted that point. You haven't rebutted a lot of points.

I have rebutted everything. You don't want to listen.
She did not do the opposite of those things. She has still not done shit and she has still been ignoring me - I had to remind her that her ignoring me is a scumtell twice in this game.

Your rebuttal was that producing reads isn't doing anything, which was a horrible rebuttal.

[Nachomamma8]

She did not do anything different. She is acting exactly like she did in her other scum games. Which I have already explained.

You said she ignored you and didn't do shit. I showed where she did the opposite of both of those things. I showed that a while ago. You still have not rebutted that point. You haven't rebutted a lot of points.

that's point specific. take a wider look at the game.

Shos, you made that statement before AA9 was replaced. Are you psychic or something?

this was only after:

Hello Mod, I am sorry, My cousin is hospitalized and I am spending this week at hospital more and I may only get few mins to come online from my worktime to do this. So I may not have time for this game. Please replace me out. TY

Ooba and Mirari say hello.

[Nachomamma8]

As does penguin, for that matter.

[Nachomamma8]

god can we plz lynch whiskers already

Whiskers is currently my ray of sunshine.

[Nachomamma8]

okay I don't want to lynch whiskers anymore

who do you want to lynch

I still want to lynch whiskers for being a creepy stalker but gun to my head I would say penny over mala

This is reassuring.

@ nacho

what is up cos you usually defend me and you are not

I don't understand what is going on between you and Whiskers so I am generally ignoring it. It doesn't feel like your normal thought process as scum, but it is not something I want to get involved in.

[Nachomamma8]

Nacho, do you disagree with my re-explained Mala and MattP reads or still not see where I'm coming from?

I disagree with them.

[Nachomamma8]

So, you heard it here first, folks.

Mala/Matt/mollie is the scumteam.

Replace Mala with nacho if I'm somehow wrong there.

Everyone else is town.

I thought you were most certain about your Mala-read? The thing in bold suggests that's the one uyou're least certain about. Could you explain?

Mollie/Malakittens/MattP is the scumteam.

That's my highly educated guess.

It is the read I'm most certain about. I just don't see Nacho being scum with Mala given the extraordinary amount of WKing. I think that if Nacho is scum, Mala is town.

And why can't you see me being town with Mala again?

[Nachomamma8]

I'll try compressing all my thoughts in this single post.

Spoiler: Why Mala is scum

• She has ignored posts she should be responding to and only did so after prodded about it or didn't do it at all.
  
• She has been focusing on a single player and has done little if any scumhunting. When her one suspect posted, she didn't care about the post until later.
  
• She has repeatedly addressed, pointed out, or generally placed her focus on irrelevant things or things with zero value in regards to finding scum. Notably, some of those things could have some value to appearing less scummy. An example would be "I have to go see the number of the games I have with Nacho and with Wisdom". Nobody cares.
  
• She made a huge deal of my "tunneling" on her in the beginning of the game, back when what I was doing wasn't even remotely resembling a tunnel. She even threatened to replace out. It is completely fake if you consider that I have never tunneled on her before when she was town. I have tunneled on her twice when she was scum.
  
• Her "I thought MattP is an Actor" thing is out of character for her and looks fake. Imo, this even looks like it was pre-planned by a scumpartner, especially considering Matt's reply to it. But that's speculation. The point is it's fake.
  
• The reads she has provided do not seem natural. For example, her mollie read is weird. She used something completely null, mollie's chair thing, to enhance her townread on her, which was there since early for no apparent reason, and she has not doubted it at all despite mollie being completely weird and useless.
  
• Similarities with other Mala-scum games I have witnessed. I went into details about that in a previous post.
  
• There are times that Mala looks like she is not following the game closely, such as her "penguin is scum and you don't want to see it" to me, when I had stated that I am scumreading penguin, but some posts of her like 879(dude he (mattp) took a break) shows she is actually following and picking up even little details like that. Which means that when it looks like she is not following, it's an act.

Spoiler: Why Matt is scum

• As noted by others, he is less active and less engaged as compared to when he is town [
  counter argument
  : He claimed he is changing his play after his break]
  
• His buddying on me. People who don't know me enough get paranoid with my egocentric playstyle and think I am scum (see shos and Whiskers). Matt didn't doubt his read on me but only when people started stating their suspicion of the mutual buddying. And then found an excuse to go back to townreading me, too easily.
  
• His last posts since the "morality issue" have been centered around it. It's like he stopped caring about the game and started caring only about people "finding him immoral". What he did cannot be considered immoral, no matter which way you look at it; but even so, that's not even what's important. What's important is that he is overreacting and using that thing as a distraction.
  
• His involvement in Mala's "Actor" thing in the beginning - he reacted instantly when Mala began that, and his response was a little theatrical. It could point to it being a pre-organised plan. Again, speculation, and this point will only matter if Mala flips scum.
  
• He has stopped scumhunting (third point relevant) and has parked his vote on shos.

Spoiler: Why mollie is scum

• Her Whiskers push is too nonsensical and stupid, even for mollie. She should understand by now that Whiskers plays like that, and she should at least be ignoring him if not having fixed the issue between them. The whole thing is an act and a distraction.
  
• She is not scumhunting (above point relevant). She should have some suspects by now - she has none. When asked who she wants to lynch, she dodged and said that penguin is better than Mala. Which was not an answer.
  
• Some of her reads looks very fake. For instance, the read she gave on MattP in 1338 looks like a textbook fake townread that applies to every scenario.
  
• Meta. This is not how town-mollie plays. I won't go into details.
  
• Counter argument:
  mollie can be this stupid sometimes and focus on things that might not make much sense (hence my "when does mollie ever make sense" to Desperado). But I think she is way past the acceptable limit.

Spoiler: Why Nacho might be scum

• Meta. It's the first time I see him not being the town-leader. Or actually, I have seen him not being the town-leader again - he was scum.
  
• Extreme WKing on Mala. He knows I can read Mala, and he has seen me shouting to people to lynch her only for Mala to go on to win the game because people, including him, didn't listen. He should at least doubt his townread on her a little. Instead he is being stubborn and tries everything he can to discredit my read on her - claiming I am tunneling, misrepping my case to a bunch of bullshit that makes no sense, etc. I really believe town-Nacho would consider the possibility I am right, however small that might be in his mind.
  
• He is not scumhunting. He is not pushing anyone. I've never seen Nacho being this passive and pushing completely noone. He has been voting shos after sheeping Matt, and has not cared to try and actually read shos. He has not tried to interact with shos to see how shos might be town. He does not have other suspects! Nacho should have tons of things to say and actual suspects at this point in the game. Nothing. And again, even if he's voting shos, he is not actually pushing for him to be lynched. Which he always does with his suspects.
  
  Note: As I said, I don't think he is scum with Mala, but he could be scum with the other two. So I think that if I am somehow wrong about Mala, Nacho replacing her in the scumteam still makes sense.

Spoiler: Other people who could be scum but don't really think so

-shos: I think his posting has greatly improved lately, while his earlier play was just bad town play. Still, there's always the possibility he managed to improve his otherwise obvious scumplay from earlier and turn it into something that can make sense as town.
-penguin: More or less, same as shos. She seemed very scummy in the beginning, especially considering her meta, but her later posts starting with that wall are much better and could mean that she just had a slow start.
-havingfitz: Only due to the fact that we have not seen much content from that slot, so everything is possible. Arc was kinda town considering her meta though, so I don't think so.
-Mirari: I liked penguin's read on her. I did not like her "Mala is voting her, wagon is so good", nor did I like her "You are all crazy, Mala is town", especially considering she is still a newbie with 2? completed games. She does not appear to consider the fact Mala could be scum at all. And I don't like her sticky read on penguin either. Still, her general tone, especially early, gave me town vibes, so I can't say I can be sure about anything here.

Spoiler: The rest of the players are town

-Whiskers: I very much like the way he is scrutinizing people. I also like how he does not get swayed by whatever says but questions everything and tries to prove how it might not make sense. For example, shos stated that the penguin wall was hard to attack - he proved that point wrong. Or, while he kind of came to an understanding of why I found Mala scummy, he still called me out on the things he thought didn't make sense. Not to mention his paranoia of my playstyle and even his attempts of trying to make me play less for myself and more for the town, which are always positive points for a player who meets me for the first time. Very very town, will never lynch.
-Grimgroove: I like his reads, which align very much with mine, as well as the various theories he comes up with. I also liked the way he reacted when I semi-faked a tunnel on him early on. It reminded me of the town-Grimgroove I had actually tunneled on in another game.
-ooba: I liked him since the beginning, and he has not given me any reason to change that. I like his content, and while I might disagree with some of his reads, they don't appear fake or opportunistic.
-Desperado: He made me paranoid for a while because of his sheeping, but that stopped mattering much when I saw his aggressive push on mollie, which I very much liked. Then I was even more happy in my townread on him when he continued scumreading Mala despite my stating that she is town.

And to reiterate, the correct lynch among those 3(4?) most scummy players for me is Mala. She is the most scummy, and regardless, her lynch will be a great information source. There are at least 3 people who claim that they are strongly townreading her and at least 4 people who claim they are strongly scumreading her. While this diversity can be found on other players (penguin, for example), the reads are nowhere as strong.

1) I am playing from an iPad. MattP is in the game, and I will occasionally take a backseat to players I respect to a significant degree, as you can see in hunter hunter. But the big thing that you should be focusing on is that I'm playing from an iPad so me not taking control to the extent that I usually do shouldn't be a large alarm, considering I'm being just as aggressive as I normally am.
2) I don't believe that you have some special ability to read Mala. I do think you can read Mala better than I can. I can also see when your read on Mala is composed of bullshit, and I have no problem stepping in to defend her when you're tunneling past the realm of sanity. For example, look at my interactions with Mollie in any game ever. Look at me white knight Mollie in a game like Pikmin versus me white knighting her in a game like Xenogears. The difference is how hard the target is being attacked; I am willing to listen to your case when you make it, but when you ignore very very basic points that I make of course I am going to bury you entirely. The reasons I would defend someone are 1) because I am scum and think that defending them will gain me cred (but why would I shut down a horrible tunnel on someone I know you can read? Hmmm.), or 2) because I think the person is town, I believe in my reasons for it, and your reasons for believing do are bad.
3) I am pushing shos. I am pushing grim. I am pushing penguin. These are my three main suspects. I am interacting with shos currently, over an attack of Mala. I have not interacted with him too harshly because iPad and excessive walls and business, but I have given him chances to prove himself town, I have deliberated on things. There is a large portion of content in these posts that you're ignoring or not caring to see.

[Nachomamma8]

Mala case:

1) she ignored one penguin post once. I mentioned how she probably saw a large wall and didn't want to respond to it, which is similar to how grim groove saw my big wall in response to him and pocketed it for later.
2) this isn't a trait of mala-scum and tunneling isn't a scumtell, as you damn well know.
3) the specific example you quote was mala seeing who ended up reading her better, in order to make a point. I haven't seen other irrelevant things, I don't think that going off into rabbit holes is a scumtell. I think it's something that happens.
4) your tunnels frustrate people. It is usually clear when you are about to tunnel someone, whether you acknowledge that bit or not. And just because you are right when you tunnel occasionally doesn't mean that your tunnels still aren't frustrating.
5) why is it out of character again? Is this a tendency of Malascum?
6) mollies chair thing isn't null, sorry. She also had other reasons for thinking mollie town, but I'm fairly sure you didn't address those. Why not?
7) you said that she ignores you as scum. She hasn't ignored you this game.
8) sometimes people pick up on things, sometimes they don't. This isn't a scumtell.

[Nachomamma8]

Matt case:

1) he isn't actually more engaged as town is the real counter argument here.
2) Matt is a better player than both of those people. I townread you when I initially played with you. Sometimes people sync up on a read and feel great about it. People dont need meta in order to townread active, aggressive play styles.
3) distraction from what? It's a big deal to some people to be called immoral, especially when they are frustrated with an immoral move from someone else.
5) he hasn't stopped scumhunting. He hasn't parked his vote on shos. He's shifted tempo which isn't a horribly large deal.

[Nachomamma8]

Your excuses are bad. Ipad or not, your play would not be this different.

The only one of my games that even look vaguely like my old town game is pick and ban. Find another one that you're talking about or stop talking about your theories and pretending like they are reality.

[Nachomamma8]

Why are you even commenting on outdated things?

I can't imagine why. I'm probably not reading currently. This has happened before.

[Nachomamma8]

Awful cases don't make me reconsider my reads, sorry. Were they supposed to?

[Nachomamma8]

Mollie case:

1) my concern with the current Mollie push is not that it is nonsensical; it's that her pushes generally strengthen in conviction the longer she pushes them as town and this one seems to have petered out. By now, I would have expected shouty text and cheer leading emotes and calling me stupid instead of what we've seen so far. The fact that her attack has devolved into something so personal though, is also something that seems unlikely to be coming from mollie-scum. Usually that sort of thing bothers her pretty deeply, and in particular the cyber stalking and recent attacks seem like something mollie wouldn't do unless she legitimately felt it.
2) the whiskers suspect seems pretty obvious. She has voiced uncomfortability with groovy. Peng is probably the third suspect of hers. She has had suspects!
4) not how scum mollie plays either, which is the problem.

[Nachomamma8]

My case was not awful. Town-you would at least consider it before shooting it down like that.

I considered your case when you initially made it. Not addressing my points when they made them and generally repeating yourself didn't change my mind at all.

[Nachomamma8]

Other people who could be scum:

Shos is an interesting beast because his methods are crazy and the type that I would love to call town, but his conclusions are generally shallow as fuck and not the type I like to call town. Take for example, his problems with you. The best that he has come up after his fake votes, his reaction tests, etc. is that you're tunneling. He is still going after shallow reasoning, although there are a lot of smoke and mirrors that say otherwise. He is still opportunistic (see his position on Mala up to this point, position on Peng, position on wagons that aren't him). I agree that the effort is good, but what's been good outside of that?

I still have no real idea on penguin, but I agree that later posts have been a little better although there's still a lot lacking.

Agree on fitz.

Didn't notice Mirari read change; what I liked most out of that slot was interactions with ooba; mollie summed my thoughts up on that pretty excellently.

[Nachomamma8]

I addressed everything, you didn't care. It's a lie that you considered anything.

You responded to everything, but you never actually responded to my points. Go reread our exchange and you might see what I'm talking about now that you've been away from it a while and mala is a nonissue.

[Nachomamma8]

I did like #1409, though.

[Nachomamma8]

Hmm, hold on. May have been too quick.

I'll put a card on the table too.

I know there is a neighborizer in this game. That's because I'm a "Virgin", making me immune to neighborizations.

Two things that make me wonder:

1. The wiki on neighborizers says they can be of any alignment (though most commonly pro-town)
2. Given my town-status, why would I be "protected" from a neighborization through my modifier if not because the tool is in the hands of a non-town player?

Please discuss.

This claim reads pretty incredibly town.

[Nachomamma8]

fitz is town, btw. In case anyone wondered.


@Whiskers
agree/disagree with my points on Mirari?

Why?

[Nachomamma8]

Malakittens faking a townslip is very incriminating in my opinion.

But I like her claim more than I like MattP's. A neighborizer whose role only gets activated during night 2 doesn't sound convincing.
The point of neighborhoods is having people sit together and talk and get to know each other. It's already weak enough as it is, but it only taking effect on night 2, being two-shots, it doesn't work.

I still think both of them are scum and they're simply distancing right now.

Whiskers, when does your role get activated?

UNVOTE:

I see no reason for Matt to lie about his role or role name. 13 gods and all.

[Nachomamma8]

Regarding Nacho, I was going to link to all 10 (TEN, not one or two) games I have with town-Nacho and show you that in ALL of them he was scumhunting, hard-pushing his suspects, constantly asking questions, getting engaged in the game etc etc etc. The only game where he didn't do those and he was just trolling and sheeping people, was the one game I have with scum-Nacho.

So once again, see my 1409 regarding Nacho. The most he has done in this game is defend Mala, to a way unnatural extent. This is not town-Nacho.

I did literally nothing in that game because my partner was lynched N1 and I didn't want to be night killed. It is not my typical scumgame.

[Nachomamma8]

Claim wise Mala and grim groove are town, it makes a lot of sense for town to be immune to neighborizing in a setup like this so the QT cop can get at least one assured innocent. Grim grooves claim is confirm able, as is Mala's (someone should attempt to neighborize grim, another neighborizer maybe targets someone, Mala tells them whether they did or not). It does make sense for scum to have a neighborizer since its a good way to reduce the pool of innocents but it's completely possible that scum neighborizer hasn't claimed yet. Matt is scummier of roles but I don't think that he is scum at the moment.

[Nachomamma8]

All I know is you did fuckall there and you're doing fuckall now.

Also you're being way too defensive; usually you don't care about my accusations on you at all.

Please look at my ISO there one more time and realize that isn't a scumgame you can use for meta.

I usually ignore you in games. I'm not ignoring you in this game.

[Nachomamma8]

. It does make sense for scum to have a neighborizer since its a good way to reduce the pool of innocents

They can't do it now without claiming scum
And before knowing what mala is they wouldn't be doing it for any different reason than town ones would
So there doesn't necessarily have to be a scum neighborizer

Well they can't do it now but I don't think the setup was made with the QT cop claiming D1 in mind.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't think mollie is scum. Admittedly, this is one of the weaker reads I have had on mollie because of weirdness around the whiskers situation, but I don't think that this would be an angle she would ever take as scum. Usually strong signs of her scumgame are fake paranoia, hardcore lurking (the type that doesn't produce over 20 posts in a day), but I'm not seeing any of that here.

[Nachomamma8]

I understand her conviction on ooba town early thanks to the living together thing and ooba's explanation.
Mala fan girding also makes sense if she figures that Peng and mala have the same relationship as her and ooba. Reading each other wise.
You are correct that strong mala townread early is weird.
Good point.
Re: 1526 is also a good point, 1531 not so much because she was pushing penguin.
Behavior around Matt claim is also pretty weird.

[Nachomamma8]

I do think that your points good. I think that the biggest thing that makes me hesitate on Mirari is last time I played when her and she was scum she seemed a hell of a lot more disengaged, but I can look at that game again later.

[Nachomamma8]

Can we talk about shos again? What do you think of his push on Mala after Malatown started to look pretty likely thanks to claim this?

[Nachomamma8]

VOTE: Penguin

[Nachomamma8]

Shos do you think there is an investigative role in this game?

[Nachomamma8]

Wis, you're being a bit ridiculous with this push.

[Nachomamma8]

No.
The qts are to replace it id say.
My role might be one though. O.o and peng is town for dat "opportunity lost" post with the l-2

You might be an investigative role? If you are one, counterclaim. Otherwise it looks like you are implying knowledge that none exist and Mala won't be counter claimed which is actually pretty scummy!

[Nachomamma8]

Yeah, no. First you agreed, now I'm ridiculous again. Die.

First I agreed, then she posted.

[Nachomamma8]

shos and grim are returning to my scumpile btw, both for failing to be logical and ignoring mirari

Why did you think Grim was scummy here again?

[Nachomamma8]

And?

And she was town when she did.

[Nachomamma8]

IF THERE IS A COP THAT CAN ONLY COP TOWN ON ONE PLAYER AND ALL OTHERS ARE MILLERS OR SCUM AND NOBODY KNOWS THAT IT IS FUCKIN NOT MAKING ANT KINDOFCSENSE

IM DRUNK AND IT STILL MAKES NO SENSE AT ALL.

But three players are neighborizers. And two of those three are delayed neighborizers. And the third is one shot. So...?

[Nachomamma8]

@ mod - due to changes IRL circumstances I request to be replaced. sorry guys.

[Nachomamma8]

I called both of them town easily too. That's because they are both relatively easy players to read.

AA9, sure. Fitz, not so much.

[Nachomamma8]

Yeah, I want to see where Mala's going with this, as she's never gone out this strongly after me before. Maybe she believes her ability to read me has improved, but I seem to recall the two of us being massively paranoid about one another in past games only for it to amount to either nothing or a blow to the town. There's been a town-Mala scum-me game completed since then, but I still think she's grandstanding.

so I've seen penguin make a statement like this a few times. The first time was when I originally pushed on her in PYP as town in a paranoid endgame scenario, where she made a "he can read me so why is he pushing me now?" comment that rang very townish. Then, in Harry Potter, she correctly identified me as scummy when I was pushing her as scum, but then flipped on me when I fake cleared her. Both times when she focused on our interactions she took a strong position on them. When she was scum and I was town, she never really emphasized the point; she let it go easily in favor of mostly defending herself. Her position here lacks the usual conviction, but I liked that it was brought up early.

[Nachomamma8]

What I didn't like is that penguins vote didn't change at that time; she felt like she had something better in the Mala vote (which she appears o think over and add to in her next post), but instead she keeps voting Mirari because Mirari asked a question? It feels like an awkward response to someone pegging you early and then tunneling the fuck out of you afterwards.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm not getting 'scum' from the shos ISO. Reading through his posts, I find myself nodding along.

Wisdom looks town, mostly because it seems like he can't help himself as town from tunneling, being fixated on his reads, and generally not changing his game overmuch. Not what I saw from scum-Wisdom in Newbie 1448.

GG is paranoid and suspicious. Not looking for the easy buddy with shos, and he's not afraid to tangle with Nacho. His refutation of the 'Mala goes and looks up Actor to see if that could be MattP's role' supposed town tell is in line with my opinion as well.

Whiskers is town. Sorry, but scum don't see someone with an emotional playstyle and say, 'gee, let's push that person's buttons for funsies.'

AA9 is saying all the town-AA9 things, but in a game like this where she knows a decent number of people, I'd expect the interactive part of her style to be more front-and-center. Heaven knows I get being behind, but it's a drastic falloff. On the other hand, her defensiveness about it is townish, so I'd let it slide pending further info.

Desperado's willing to engage with mollie over the weak Whiskers scum read and tells Wisdom off. I disagree about shos, but I think he has a point with mollie.

Mala thinking that MattP would indicate his role so early on looks like hopeful scum. I don't think that Mala would pull any fake emotional stuff, so I think her frustration with Wisdom is genuine.

This:

@ Wisdom: Arc (early townread w/ mollie) and someone weird...Mirari?

Mala, I'm seeing the same things you are. I don't think it's her towngame either.

With that said, humans are...human, and she might just be off her towngame.

This doesn't chive w/ your last post before this.

You are now thinking Peng is a ML and I'm scum.

Get your feelings straight.

isn't town interacting with other people's reads. This is 'how dare you change your mind even a little bit.'

MattP, still don't see him laying out anything that convinces me shos is even scummy, let alone scum. (and to clarify, by 'following the game' I mean 'comprehending the arguments that mirror popular opinion' rather than 'reading the thread') But I'm willing to buy that he has a strong mutual town read on/with Wisdom, and Wisdom-town makes me think MattP-town.

Mirari, I don't like posts like this:

Not that I know. I have only played two games here and I don't think you were a player in those games. I'm just asking you too vote because ooba votes are bad.

where it takes more than one post for Mirari to explain why ooba votes are bad. It's not helpful and reads as artificial to me.

Calling shos' posts filler is also a gross mischaracterization. You can disagree with the content, but there's no way they're fluff.

Also the same reason penguin is scum. I just realized Mala is on her wagon. That increases the credibility of the wagon and the likelihood of penguin being scum if you ask me. Decisions, decisions...

This is odd. You don't mention Mala that I can find anywhere else before this in your postings, yet suddenly her being on my wagon makes it so much better. And to say that she's 'on my wagon' is a mild way of putting it; she's been on my wagon forever pushing my lynch. This isn't some surprising new development that represents someone changing her mind about me.

Nacho, don't agree with all his stances, but I'm getting a gut-town vibe off him. Anything further I'd like to think I can sort out a bit further down the line.

ooba, here:

Penguin scum flip would mean Mala town. Plus I never liked the fact that Nacho was on the shos wagon. Lets see where this leads..

Vote: Penguin

seems like town being frank. And considering their wagons in light of other reads, instead of trying to push lynches through irrespective of inconsistencies in their stances. I'd like it better without the slight implication of it being an exploratory vote. Also seems flexible in a non-scummy way.

mollie, still don't comprehend the inflexibility on Whiskers earlier. I get being annoyed with someone, but at a certain point it's only reasonable to step back and see if there's a non-'people are attacking me!' explanation. The Whiskers conflict read as a good way for mollie to kill time. The chair discussion also seems null. Yes, I've seen town-mollie pull it out, but I certainly wouldn't draw conclusions from it, given that the goal of the game as scum is to play a town game in any aspects that don't damage your team's chances. The chair pic falls under that category.



Overall reads:

Town:
shos
GG
Whiskers
Wisdom

Town enough I would disagree with their lynch:
AA9
Desperado
MattP
Nacho
ooba

Scum enough that I wouldn't condemn their lynch:
Mirari
Mala
mollie

Scum:
I'm too out of sync with a lot of people's reads to feel like I have anyone whose lynch I'd feel super-confident on.

That's all I have tonight.

I don't like that her scumread on Mala disregards everything that penguin was publicly mulling over before; I feel like Mala pushing hard on town penguin for absolutely no reason is the type of thing that would stand out the strongest to town penguin, yet all we get is "hopeful scum" (what?) and one quote of Mala's. This is especially weird when she is happy to call mollie scum for inflexibility of Whiskers.

I don't like that she calls Matt town because Wisdom town.

And I don't like the general trend of picking out a post and having that decide the read as opposed to making reads based on the big picture; I can see Peng opening ISOs, finding a post she thinks she can comment on, then ignoring the rest.

[Nachomamma8]

I feel discriminated against.

[Nachomamma8]

ELYSE

[Nachomamma8]

You left me all alone

[Nachomamma8]

The vote count. Am I not good enough to be counted with everyone else...?

[Nachomamma8]

Yay for incoming penguin mislynch

Remember when you accused me of not considering your cases? You're doing some of that here.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't like that her scumread on Mala disregards everything that penguin was publicly mulling over before; I feel like Mala pushing hard on town penguin for absolutely no reason is the type of thing that would stand out the strongest to town penguin, yet all we get is "hopeful scum" (what?) and one quote of Mala's. This is especially weird when she is happy to call mollie scum for inflexibility of Whiskers.

I don't like that she calls Matt town because Wisdom town.

And I don't like the general trend of picking out a post and having that decide the read as opposed to making reads based on the big picture; I can see Peng opening ISOs, finding a post she thinks she can comment on, then ignoring the rest.

Mala has a history of being paranoid of me and misreading me, although usually not until later. Basing my read of her entirely on that isn't helpful to the thread in general and even to me in particular.

I don't like that I didn't have anything less nebulous to read MattP on than Wisdom's read. I remember having no problem believing IaI's fake cop claim on him in NY 161, but this isn't the same MattP as was there. I find his neighborization claim the scummiest, and I'm not entirely buying into Wisdom's neighbor/lover theory.

If I quote a post, I generally consider it representative/illustrative rather than the sum total of the person's play. Sure, I could be doing what you describe--I can't prove a negative. But I'm not, so.

I don't really want to. But I will if you insist. I don't want to make a "case" like the one you made against me for the sake of making a "case". Wasted time for everyone involved. I will do that later.

I'd like to hear your current case on me. Although since you think it's wasted time to make a case, I don't have high hopes.

As far as neighborizers go, what about having them neighborize one another? It lets them use their roles without giving everyone a QT and so maximizes Mala's role's utility. And since there is a good chance of having a scum neighborizer, it lets the town one(s) sort the scum one(s) a bit.

P-edit: Thanks ever so, Wisdom.

Why isn't reading Mala based on the way she treats you helpful? I'm not sure what part of her getting paranoid of you and misreading you later obscures your read on her.

What's the difference between this MattP and Posh MattP?

[Nachomamma8]

For the record, I'll be done with all but one final on the 17th. That's when I'll really be able to get back into this game.

You should probably take your vote off in the meantime.

[Nachomamma8]

Btw you technically lied about your claim. Now that there are 2 night neighborizers and your claim is the odd one out, you switched to "no I'm a night one too I just create daytalk". Why didn't you clarify that at first?

Sorry, I didn't know I switched.


When I claimed, being a Day-Neighborizer. I guess I didn't go into specifics beyond that.
But, when I checked my role PM recently, I saw stuff that I hadn't really processed before, or forgot about.
Whether or not you want to discount this, my role

still

makes the least sense amidst all these claims-- with regards to setup, at least.

So, what is your full claim again? You neighborize pregame and it takes effect N1? Who did you neighborize?

[Nachomamma8]

Btw you technically lied about your claim. Now that there are 2 night neighborizers and your claim is the odd one out, you switched to "no I'm a night one too I just create daytalk". Why didn't you clarify that at first?

Sorry, I didn't know I switched.


When I claimed, being a Day-Neighborizer. I guess I didn't go into specifics beyond that.
But, when I checked my role PM recently, I saw stuff that I hadn't really processed before, or forgot about.
Whether or not you want to discount this, my role

still

makes the least sense amidst all these claims-- with regards to setup, at least.

So, what is your full claim again? You neighborize pregame and it takes effect N1? Who did you neighborize?

[Nachomamma8]

what's to say she's not a scum QT Cop

And scum need a QT Cop because..?

And town need a QT Cop because...?

Because it can occasionally give information as to the alignments of players.

[Nachomamma8]

Btw you technically lied about your claim. Now that there are 2 night neighborizers and your claim is the odd one out, you switched to "no I'm a night one too I just create daytalk". Why didn't you clarify that at first?

Sorry, I didn't know I switched.


When I claimed, being a Day-Neighborizer. I guess I didn't go into specifics beyond that.
But, when I checked my role PM recently, I saw stuff that I hadn't really processed before, or forgot about.
Whether or not you want to discount this, my role

still

makes the least sense amidst all these claims-- with regards to setup, at least.

So, what is your full claim again? You neighborize pregame and it takes effect N1? Who did you neighborize?

[Nachomamma8]

The only power roles that QT cops can find are neighborizers, and they can't even find those very well. This would be the most useless rolecop in the entire world and I have no idea how you could use it to clear partners.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't think lovers or masons or alternate scumteams exist.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't think lovers or masons or alternate scumteams exist.

I've seen multiball in a mini once and it pissed me off, don't think we have to worry about that here but even if that's the case... Finding other scum isn't a larger advantage to scum than finding scum is to town.

[Nachomamma8]

Don't think lovers are a thing this game thanks to all the neighborizers; the reason for giving the neighborizers the choice to neighborizer seems geared to give them the chance not to give mala false positives. Masons probably don't exist for similar reasons.

[Nachomamma8]

I do agree that your claim switch is weird as hell at best, though. If scum were informed of multiple neighborizers I'm some way then I would expect the situation to play out exactly the way it did here (scum claims neighborizer with specifics being a bit off, gets cornered a bit thanks to setup speculation, switches claim) which shakes townreads a bit.

[Nachomamma8]

But not enough because that would be incredibly impressive for a mod hosting her second game. Remember that this is a mod hosting her second game.

[Nachomamma8]

Town QT cop can find at least one confirmed town in the virgin. The rest of the neighborizers seem to only have one hit by D2, meaning there's the potential for the town QT cop to get innocents on 7 players, minus however many town were neighborized and + however many neighborizers neighborize the virgin.