Mini 1524: Olympian Gods Mafia - Game Over

[shos]

ye know what screw this I dunno which posts I was reading. I'll jst get myself familiar with events when I get time. this is probably tonight, in 6~7 hours.

[Whiskers]

There wasn't a single thing in your catchup that offered anything insightful or clever in thought. Everything was too straightforward, and that means to me that you're not really thinking too hard.

Idk, mate. She gave me some stuff that I thought was useful-- and this isn't stuff I just agree with or stuff I've heard before. I've taken all that out. This is, IMO, new. Or at least, things I missed. Or, things I've said but I can't recall anypony else saying.

I'm not getting 'scum' from the

shos

ISO. Reading through his posts, I find myself nodding along.

Desperado

's willing to engage with mollie over the weak Whiskers scum read and tells Wisdom off. I disagree about shos, but I think he has a point with mollie.

Mala

isn't town interacting with other people's reads.

MattP

, still don't see him laying out anything that convinces me shos is even scummy, let alone scum.

Mirari

, -snip-

where it takes more than one post for Mirari to explain why ooba votes are bad. It's not helpful and reads as artificial to me.
-snip-
This is odd. You don't mention Mala that I can find anywhere else before this in your postings, yet suddenly her being on my wagon makes it so much better. And to say that she's 'on my wagon' is a mild way of putting it; she's been on my wagon forever pushing my lynch. This isn't some surprising new development that represents someone changing her mind about me.

The Whiskers conflict read as a good way for

mollie

to kill time. The chair discussion also seems null. Yes, I've seen town-mollie pull it out, but I certainly wouldn't draw conclusions from it, given that the goal of the game as scum is to play a town game in any aspects that don't damage your team's chances. The chair pic falls under that category.

[Whiskers]

@Malakittens

, are we going to have to lynch [you/peng] today? Is it going to end up as a 1/1? Is that what you're hoping?

[Nachomamma8]

That looks fake, Nacho. You never expected me to say that? How so? If you are referring to my tunnels, even when I have them, I don't ignore the rest of the game. But even if I did, are we talking about me here? Does Mala play anything like me?

How is what she is doing ok? She is only responding to Desp, she is only spamming "lynch peng" and she is doing nothing. How are you not doubting your read on her at all given such play?

Wisdom, I was teasing you again because tunneling. I would not say mala has been ignoring the rest of the game, but her penguin tunnel is the only significant thing she has done this game. I don't think Mala plays like you at all. As scum, she plays pretty much the complete opposite to you. So, when there are similarities between your town game and her current game, she's already more likely to be town than scum.

[Wisdom]

What do you think about her last exchange with me?

[Nachomamma8]

@Grim: Face my demons? You missed a post that you based the majority of your case on not existing (that is, Wisdom having called you scum)I pointed out the post, and I explained everything in your large posts directed at me. I also pointed out I wasn't lying about going on a break

Yes, that is all very good, but I was referring to room 876 and obviously was not talking about the stuff that has been rendered irrelevant thanks to your briljant replies.

But you're not talking yourself out of that slip with Mala. Because you didn't use logic in that one. You used a play on emotions and I caught it. You're good at using logic against people, but you're lacking in the emo-use department.

I KNOW you wouldn't make a threat like that and I KNOW MAlakittens would not ignore such a threat unless it came from a scumpartner.

I don't think this is true. I share a similar tell (the blacklist tell!) and it frustrates me when I see it as well. I don't necessarily share the same belief, but I see where Matt is coming from. I don't understand how Mala is supposed to react to that one, though.

[Nachomamma8]

On iPad, haven't read the whole game. I will more an likely comment n it when I get to it.

[Nachomamma8]

Oh look, I quoted something of Nacho's that didn't give me a townread on Mala. What a shame.

Nacho, I'm asking you for your strongest read not to catch you in something. I have 6 strong townreads. I'd like 7. I think that's a good number. Please help me get there.

Pedit: I have morals.

Guide me through Mala's thought process as scum with coming up with the Actor gambit. I consider myself as a pretty creative person in coming up with wacky shit to do as scum to get town read but I can't say I can think of a person who would think of that sort of thing unless it was coming from an honest place. I can also get into more complete reasons later, but that is the point that feels the best to me about Mala-town.

[Nachomamma8]

I mean I guess she could have legit thought you were an actor as scum but that seems strange.

[Wisdom]

note to self:
read http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p5502557 later.

Did you read it?

[Wisdom]

he then pulls another argument against whiskers.

oi shos, I never bothered to read your case properly, so I just noticed this.

This:

I think the fact that Wisdom can't understand and has to dip his fingers into every post MattP makes, makes Wisdom more likely scum

This is a misrep, there's no post of Matt's that I didn't understand.

is an answer to your

and wis nobody misrepped you here.

and NOT an argument against Whiskers, like you claimed in your case.

[Wisdom]

so let me understand - what changed your mind?

As to what changed my mind; it was two things. Desp and Matt stating they think Whiskers is town, which led me to reevaluate and see that I might be wrong, and, more importantly, you trying to defend him from my accusations. I didn't think you'd be scum together, so I moved my vote back to you and changed my mind about Whiskers.

[Wisdom]

Now, you said you're very "convinced" I am scum. Is it still for the same reasons? Because if you as much as looked into one of my towngames, you'd see all of them refuted.

[Nachomamma8]

I'm going to start with replying to what Nachomamma said:

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Actor

What I thought you possibly were.

My mind is not right at the moment. ._.

This rabbit hole theory is crazy town and not really a scumMala move at all. It is also completely consistent with earlier posting:

It's a random thought. Hypothesizing about a completely random role being in the game based on an RVS-joke is not alignment-indicative, no matter how you see it.
What is objectively verifiable though, is that this theory, or this kind of thinking, does not remind me of a scumhunt-driven process. All Mala did was make an association between MattP's early intent to hammer and the Actor-role.
Why would Town care to think about what kind of town a person would be, let alone be so specific as to go delve into the role of something that seems rather rare to me.

I have a sight feeling on MattP, but I need to see more, but I can probably see him being town.

So unless you think that Mala-scum came up with the idea at the beginning of the game to suspect someone of being an Actor who didn't RVS vote from her first post, crumb it initially, then react immediately when they put a vote down, then she's probably town.

The random thought itself is easy enough to make it look townish, because it's null to begin with. Being consistently null doesn't make one town.
Malakittens may have come up with this idea in the beginning yes, scum needs certain grounds to start attacking someone. If Mala could consider the Actor-perspective as a reasonable basis to suspect MattP as town, she could just as well do it as scum. The fact she openly dropped the idea later doesn't make her more town either, it's just a realization that it's not the kind of argument that gets you very far. This realization is also null.

It's your tunneling in general that pisses me off regardless of my alignment in any past game we played. I guess you have a point you haven't tunneled me as town, but right now you're tunneling on town me.

This also struck me as a wonderfully town reaction. I don't think Mala-scum would say something that was false and easily proven to be false and then back down so easily like this.

This is really bullshit. Scum also makes factual mistakes, not always because they intend to do so. Of course they'll back down easily from it once someone finds out. If the wouldn't they'd be stringing themselves up. Giving Mala townpoints for backing down easily is nonsensical.
And I'm not so sure it was a factual mistake, because she's still trying to stretch it. "It's your tunneling in general that pisses me off" doesn't ring true to me.

It's part of her scum-meta to do this, but you're ignoring it and treating her like town because she's only focusing on any interactions that's coming at her instead of taking the bull by the horns and looking at other posts like I know town-Peng to do so.

Her push on penguin is also a pretty clear effort to sort her out, and it's a type of attack based on a scumread in a previous game that feels pretty fucking genuine. I always like pushes based on meta authority and this is no exception.

Also liked the reach out to mollie even after she found an easy reason to call mollie town

.

Explain the thing in bold to me? How are the two things you describe here mutually exclusive for scum?

And I saw no town-intentions in the push on penguin. At the start, this was based on TWO posts by penguin. 2. That's it. She then proceeded to give it extra weight by the meta-arguments you see there. I've seen town-peng too and I've rarely (I even think, never, but should check) seen her take the bull by the horns.

What I see is a clear effort to redirect our attention elsewhere. That's what scum does. Of course you can expect them to give reasons with them, but it's not because penguin may have given her some by her reactionary playstyle, that Malakittens' intentions were good from the start. I'm convinced they aren't.

The Nachomamma townread is intentionally based on loose sand. I don't think a genuine MAlakittens would give him townpoints for defensiveness. This is evident because of the word "but". Normally she wouldn't consider Nacho being defensive as town, "but"...

This was extremely nitpicky; seemed like the type of thing scum would attack but can't find town having conviction in.

I don't want to make this about me, but I am known to be quite nitpicky at times. And I find that a very strange comment coming from you, whose tagline is "Devil is in the details".

But this isn't nitpicky. Malakittens is townreading you, despite of things. Not because of things.

Nacho is being quite defensive, but I think he's probably town for it.

This is not the way a townread generally works and feels extremely forced.
Why does defensiveness give him townpoints?
Why didn't you say: Nacho is being defensive, so he's probably town?

These things do matter. That "but" is a lack-of-genuinity-tell.

That argument is bad. There's nothing remotely special about that kind of bitching. Even if he didn't do it before (as if you'd remember something like him NOT doing something like that before), it's not as crucial as you make it out to be. Maybe he learned a thing or two in the meanwhile, leading him to be suspicious of early townreads? MAybe it's the nature of your particular townreads that don't sit well with him? Maybe, maybe, maybe, so many possible explanations. Yet you focus on one and turn it into a crucial "argument".

He uses Mala noting that shos didn't dislike early townreads in the past as a point against Mala because "shos might have changed". Yes, shos might have changed but nothing at all points to that so Mala shouldn't have to make that assumption when she sees something different, and it's weird he expects her to make that assumption.

You have missed to point completely. My point was not to have Malakittens make that certain assumption of shos having changed. The point was getting Mala out of making another assumption that was way too particular (and convenient) given at we were looking at, because there's so many other assumptions abound regarding shos' stance towards those townreads that are at least equally reasonable.

I'm not sure if I'll have time for a full ISO. I'll try and see how far I get.

Actor response: the normal scum response in seeing an early intent to hammer (or the early surface response to seeing that intent to hammer) would be to call it scummy because it's opportunistic and espousing an early lynch. The normal town response to seeing an early intent to hammer (or the first deeper level) is to declare it a reaction test and then call Matt townie for it. The approach Mala took was to decide that he was a role that scum very very very rarely had, and then have him at strong town for it, then go "oh shit I thought you were something else" when he put an RVS vote down. Compare this to Whiskers response to me. Surface level is "oh, he's being defensive and thus scummy". Deeper level is "oh, reaction testing in RVS and thus townie". Deeper deeper level is "he's saying defensiveness is townie to test the waters and then being defensive after it is accepted as a town tell in order to be read as town". Is the initial situation that Whiskers/Mala are commenting on null? Yes. But the reaction to it is not.

I responded to most of this earlier, but you bring up that her dropping the theory immediately is null. It adds credence that this is an actual thought process Mala was having; remember that scum are usually less transparent about these sorts of things and usually aren't as aware of things like this because they have to fake every thought process they have. Mala scum knows that if Matt is an actor, she will know it soon enough. She knows that she could probably exploit the hammer thing as someone scummy, make a push on him for it. Instead she thinks that he is an actor and confirmed town for it; doesn't out it immediately in case he is hiding it for some reason.

first of all, Mala has replaced out of games before (as town) because it pisses her off. So the line that rings disingenuous to you is likely true regardless of her actual alignment. Secondly, I don't think Mala scum says something like that in an attempt to discredit wisdom with that much conviction unless she knew what she was saying was true, or had some ring of truth to it. And it wasn't just that she backed down, but instead how she backed down. When scum back down, there's usually a bit of squirming, a bit of awkward, a bit of ickyness. The back down here was clean and showed no loss of conviction, which I liked a lot.

Mala already was calling mollie town for reasons. Mala later got a little paranoid, reached out to mollie in the hopes that mollie would help her reaffirm her town read. Mala as scum already has the mollie read taken care of, she's going to attempt to buddy with her and mislynch elsewhere. Instead of just leaving the read static, there's a clearer thought process on it, initial town read, reaffirm to read, stale townread; it shows that she is legitimately trying to read mollie, which I like considering I expect to see a pretty good sorting process between those two and look, here it is. What I am telling you ago Mala's style is that she is not a strong redirect style player as scum. Unless shos was a god tier power role, she probably wouldn't be trying that hard to save him, and she sure as hell wouldn't be setting him up to die tomorrow after Peng if she felt be was important enough to stick her head out this far for. Who cares if the tunnel was started early?

She agreed that I was being defensive when people were calli me scum for it. She said but because she believed the defensiveness was a town tell of mine, not a scum tell. So she's town reading me, despite of others thinking differently. How is this scummy?

Who cares if it's not the normal way that townread are formed? Normal ways are generally easy to predict and easy to fake.

I don't understand your last point or why it's significant.

[Nachomamma8]

Your Whiskers read is terrible too. He was pushing mollie because he didn't like her attitude. Just like he pushed me, just like he pushed Matt. It's his way of scumhunting. Nothing to do with how you are pushing penguin.

You're either scum, or you have paid such little attention to the game that you don't know what's what. Or both, which is what I'm going with.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: mala

Could you compare what Mala has done here to what she's done in any town game and tell me why what she's provided here hasn't been up to snuff?

[Nachomamma8]

I am currently convinced you are scum, so no, I want people to be convinced as well.

I skimmed them - the felt awful imo, but just saying it's awful is not useful in shit. I will only elaborate when I *really* find time; I'm posting here just inbetween things and only reading in my phone so meh.

I definitely may vote for a mala lynch over you, in case deadline pushes, if that matters.

Deadlines in two weeks but the fact you're already looking to compromise is scummy as hell.

[Nachomamma8]

I don't understand penguins read on Mala or Matt.

Ooba posting remains low energy which makes me sad.

[Wisdom]

What do you think about her Mirari read?

[Malakittens]

first of all, Mala has replaced out of games before (as town) because it pisses her off. So the line that rings disingenuous to you is likely true regardless of her actual alignment. Secondly, I don't think Mala scum says something like that in an attempt to discredit wisdom with that much conviction unless she knew what she was saying was true, or had some ring of truth to it. And it wasn't just that she backed down, but instead how she backed down. When scum back down, there's usually a bit of squirming, a bit of awkward, a bit of ickyness. The back down here was clean and showed no loss of conviction, which I liked a lot.

To be fair, I know what game you're referencing. The difference between that game and this game; I was on a whole another emotional level and it caused our slot to basically be scum-read by majority of the players and almost becoming lynch-bait. I replaced out of frustration and not wanting to damage something I had {friendship} you can say that game I had something outside of the game which I took on a personal level. I came back in because Mara asked me and talked me back and then calmed me down; the last replace out wasn't me at all (regardless of me telling Mara in skype that I was officially done) and it was Mara who pulled us both out.

This game I just needed Wisdom to not go down that road because for me he was in early signs of it. I guess after playing with Wisdom or watching him I can sense when he's getting ready for a tunnel. The one game I hated watching a Wisdom tunnel was when I was WW and he tunneled on Sakura, I felt really, really bad for her.

Anyways, off to work for me.

[Wisdom]

You were Mafia, not WW

[Wisdom]

And I tunneled more on you than her

[shos]

I have read a big part of the ISO linked to in 85. I saw that there too wisdom spammed the thread and wasn't as pro-town as you'd expect. This does not mean that wisdom is town - rather, it means that it is going to be a PITA to read him either way.

Wisdom is asking a LOT of questions in this game here. some of them are actually good, I admit, but some (and other lines that go with them) are just terrible. So what I'm going to do is keep wisdom in my scum pile, but not for today's lynch. surely there's some role out there that can solve wisdom's alignment to us. So I'll keep my focus from now on until D2 on other people, barring something too wild happening, of course.

I have lots of things to read now and not too much time, and I wanna do it today so that tomorrow I can comment from work. so pardon me ignoring current activity and going 7-8 pages back.

[shos]

@824:regarding the WKing, I really don't think that's alignment related. people do that as both alignemnt(even me); scum do it for cred, town do it because they actually believe in their read. so yeah, he's been WKing. if Mala flips scum, then we should take a careful look at Nacho. this is likely imo, btw.

and I don't see how nacho was 'subtle' lol x) he's been pushing me quite directly. but his push doesn't look like scum, imo. I mean, it's not ugly, irrational stupid things like wisdom did during the tunneltime; it's sorta-ok questions(btw I remember some need answers now that I've seen wisdom's other game). The bad thing that I find in these was that he, somehow, managed to disagree with me on ALL the points there. Or at least say that they're not alignement telling or something, iirc. so anyway, TLDR is I don't see him scummy, but not townie too. I'll probably have to ISO some people here to get a read on them. speaking of which - did AA9 get in here already?

p34 incoming

[shos]

dat buddying on me from Nacho and Wisdom. it's like they're cooperating......

lol @ matt.
Matt: now that your early 'mason buddy' is no longer a mason buddy - what is your read on him? (wisdom..if it wsn't clear)

hmmm. 828 by GG makes me think dat post earlier was some sort of a reaction test.

Nachomamma has been whiteknighting Malakittens.

Discuss.

True!

Nachomamma has been the most subtle in trying to move votes to the shos wagon.

Discuss.

I'm not being very subtle at the moment.

@Nachomamma: I liked shos' wall because everything in it made sense.
Why are you acting surprised about people liking it?

I didn't like it very much. People keep saying that they like it. People have a tendency to townread big walls because :effort: is generally very protown and it feels shitty to lynch someone who is putting a lot of time and effort into the game. I am trying to get more people to talk about the content instead of vague approvals because I think the content is pretty weak.

well the first two - like I said. the next: well then, tell me about the content. do you think that any of the content in that wall is wrong/mislead/misleading? I'm not following your point. you say that you didn't like my superwall. I think it was super because it was really everything that I felt and thought concentrated in one big case. do you think anything is wrong in there?? or perhaps just the conclusion - that wisdom is scum - is wrong? I mean by your questions earlier it seems like yo just disagree about how alignment-related the answers I showed are.

well post 830's vote clarifies matt's opinion on wisdom.

post 831, Grimgroove"]The scumread on Malla will ironically enough probably be wrong, but still, it got me Nacho in an indirect way.
[/quote]
alright. this is interesting. Why do you think that your scumread on mala is wrong? and if you think so, why do you still scumread mala?

daYUUUUmn you wisdom, dat readlist is soooo stupid I just can't help but wanting to lynch you again.

@nacho 835: so what you're saying is that all the things I pointed against wisdom are not SCUMMY, and rather, they're "just antitown".? don't we want to get rid of antitown things? and do you think that he CAN be scum antitown or do you actually have a townread over there? you said that thinking deep is one of the best ways to get townreads. something like that. do you think that wisdom has been deep=thinking by now? at all? I think not.

Fuck this game.. Go slow damit.. I am 20 pages behind to catch up..

are you fucking kidding me?

20 pages behind on page 34? that's like a minute past RVS. I've done this before, we can force-replace you in need. either get the fuck working on this game this sunday or switch the fuck out.

/sorry for being rude btw I'm alittle angry at lurkers lately

Fuck this game.. Go slow damit.. I am 20 pages behind to catch up..

... wtf is that, Nacho? Why are you playing like this?

It's amazing how one single statement can be enough to turn someone into a conftown read.
They are rare, but they exist.

If you hold your breath, and read very carefully, you'll see a gentle specimen sitting overthere in the North. It's gentle grazing in the meadow, so do not disturb it. Respect it, at a distance.


And if you shoot it I'LL HUNT YOU! I'll hunt you down like the sick animal you are!!!

Wisdom is conftown as of 841

Hmm. No, maybe I've been rushing to conclusions.

Sorry!

I need explanations. morelike, 'wtf' answers.

what were you thinking??? and what got you to retreat so quickly???

and why do everyone freakin keep saying that wisdom is a universal townread dammit

@850 by despt - yes. it was nothing new. but my 1v1 with wisdom was SOOOO FUCKING lengthy and disordered and people couldn't follow and see why I'm fuckin right and wisdom was wrong so I compiled a case listing most of the things I could remember and FFS finally people saw the light. Yes, there was almost nothing new in there if any at all - but do you agree/disagree??

ooba's post is plainly wrong imo. that's a bad post. it's just wrong and misrepful imo.

Desp: how/why are you townreading wisdom? his playstyle appears to fit both alignments' meta's of him. so there's gotta be something more.

Oh interestingly enough in post 859 Mala suddenly comes out of the blue supporting a peng lynch! funny how he doesn't say anything for a thousand years and then comes to support the popular wagon! opportunistic something eh.

@matt 860: I think that is the case, yes, that both GG and I are town. what things need to be sorted out, then, regarding a penguin lynch? O_o;; and how the hell does my/gg's alignment have to do with anything?

post 866 is exactly what you talked about, Nacho. see, wisdom here pushes, supposedly, on desp regarding the mala vote. but it is FCUKING DAY ONE. and he is asking for the scum partners. SURFACE.

Hmm. No, maybe I've been rushing to conclusions.

Sorry!

You realize that if Shos and Grim are town that there's a lot of stuff that needs to be sorted before we lynch Penguin

Well; having Peng flipped would give me some information on Shos and Grim. Their excessive buddying is annoying so I doubt they are scum together, but at least one of them is a good chance at being scum.

Peng is just scum to me. I doubt and really doubt she'll flip town. She's just not giving me town vibes at all. Not one little bit.

~

Desperado -

I tunnelled on town-Peng in the past and she didn't react like this. THIS IS HER FUCKING SCUM GAME.

okay. that's enough VOTE: mala.

come on, mala. who are you trying to fool? having a peng flip would give you some info on ME and GRIM?? oh my shining bright star, tell me, what do you learn on me if peng flips scum? what do you learn on me if peng flips town? that is BULLFUCKINGSHIT. our excessive buddying?? it's like you're skimming the thread and copycat-ing others to look like you're posting content. the buddying between me and GG happened like, twice, only, and in like 3 posts, 500 posts ago. it is annoying?? please my dear, show me the last time I buddied grim, and even better, show me the last time GG buddied me. I'm pretty sure that literally never happened. I buddied grim only, and it was years ago. oh, you think at least one of us has a good chance at being scum? can you be any more vague? "I think that at least some of the people who might or might not be talking might have some chance that might be big and might not to be possibly maybe scum". FUCKING KIDDING ME

and peng is just scum to you. just scum. like that.
are you pulling a wisdom here? lol. no way in hell this happens twice a gameday, lol. you doubt she'll flip town? based on what? she's just not giving me town vibes? so that means that ALL THE OTHERS *are* giving you town vibes?

and you tunneled..so..wuht. you didn't do it here. nobody else did it here. so why would she react the same? peng posted very few posts iirc. few. you're eating and shitting the other way around.

no way in hell ou're town

that's enough for tonight ima go to sleep now. will keep reading tomorrow, probably catch up slowly via phone.

[Wisdom]

daYUUUUmn you wisdom, dat readlist is soooo stupid I just can't help but wanting to lynch you again.

What do you mean, "again"? Weren't you convinced I'm scum?