Mini 1524: Olympian Gods Mafia - Game Over

[Desperado]

Like, if no one had claimed yet and we ended up lynching, say, me today...Mala's role would end up being 100% useless after all of the neighborizers neighborized.

^That doesn't seem like sound setup design to me.

[Wisdom]

Not necessarily. As I said, there might be more roles like Grim's and the neighborhoods might not be so easy to form. Not to mention neighborizers targeting the same players.

[Wisdom]

Spoiler: Why Mirari is scum

• First, let's remind everyone of 195. I didn't care much about it at the time, but it is a stupid, useless, filler question.
  
• 216 - "ooba votes are bad". The reason she gives for that in 302 is very weak - "i dont think he would be doing that as scum". That doesn't explain her confidence that ooba is so super town that nobody should be voting him. It looks awfully like buddying ooba, especially considering they know each other irl.
  
• 310 - she accuses shos of posting filler - what has she posted up to this point that is not filler? Looks hypocritical, and sheeping others on the big wagon.
  
• 699 - The aforementioned Mala fangirling, that came out of nowhere. She assumes that Mala is town, she assumes that Mala can read penguin like a book, and so she states that Mala scumreading penguin somehow strengthens the likelihood of penguin being scum. All that without having played with either, and without being able to know if Mala is town or not.
  
• 1303 and 1307 - More Mala WKing - "you are all crazy for thinking she is scum". Completely unwarranted given Mala's play.
  
• Some of the reads she gives in 1359 are very bad, especially her Nacho one.
  
• 1360 and 1363 - again taking Mala's side in the Mala-peng ordeal without any visible reason. Too much confidence that Mala has to be town and peng has to be scum that comes from nowhere.
  
• 1526 -
  and note that here start the stronger scumtells
  - she once again spams about us having to lynch penguin. Note that in all of her posts, there has been no attempts to try and interact with penguin, like a town player would do to ensure their read. She is just taking it for granted that penguin is scum (and that Mala is town) and never tries to reconsider or work with penguin or work with anyone else (not even ooba) to see if she could be wrong in her reads. I'll also point out her "I think both neighborizers are town", which I found weird at the time that we didn't know much yet and it seemed weird to believe such a thing.
  
• In 1531 she claims she is "pushing" penguin, while all she has done is vote her and state that she wants her to be lynched. And before Whiskers or someone comes here and says "but that's a push Wisdom", no it isn't. I was telling her that she is tunneling on penguin and in response to that, she said that she is not tunneling but actually pushing her.
  
• 1540.
  The most important scumtell for Mirari.
  She is overexplaining what penguin's motivation is behind her stating that she is willing to lynch Mala. This thing does not come from town. This thing comes from scum who wants to manipulate people. It's really typical, it's exactly how scum go about manipulating. I don't know how else to describe it, she is giving fake reasons for why penguin did what she did.
  
• 1557 - "I don't need to interact with scum, they are scum". This further shows how her mindset is not a town one. She is convinced that penguin is scum and does not care to interact with her at all, she even admits so. I am one of the worst tunnelers in existence but never, and I mean NEVER, will I stop interacting with the person I am tunneling on, even if it is to tell them "you are obvscum, just die" and see their reaction. Not caring to do such a thing is absolutely a scum trait.
  
• Her defense of the Matt claim is very very weird. She struggles to find arguments to show why it could come from town and she does not want to consider that it could come from scum. In the end she even states that Matt could be lying about his role and have a stronger role - and despite that she finds the lying coming from town rather than scum. It doesn't make sense.

[shos]

alright I literally have five minutes on a computer so here we go

*sigh* IU deleted everything cyuz I won't make it and I don't remember all I wanted to say

this setup doesn't make sense

mala's role is fake and was fakeclaimed cuz of the claims she already knew it doedsn't make sense

[Wisdom]

Regarding Nacho, I was going to link to all 10 (TEN, not one or two) games I have with town-Nacho and show you that in ALL of them he was scumhunting, hard-pushing his suspects, constantly asking questions, getting engaged in the game etc etc etc. The only game where he didn't do those and he was just trolling and sheeping people, was the one game I have with scum-Nacho.

So once again, see my 1409 regarding Nacho. The most he has done in this game is defend Mala, to a way unnatural extent. This is not town-Nacho.

[Wisdom]

I was going to link to all 10 (TEN, not one or two) games I have with town-Nacho and show you that in ALL of them he was scumhunting, hard-pushing his suspects, constantly asking questions, getting engaged in the game etc etc etc

(I didn't finish the sentence)
I was going to do that, but I realize it's pointless. Just take my word for it, or, if you don't trust me, I can link them all to you.

[Wisdom]

mala's role is fake and was fakeclaimed cuz of the claims she already knew it doedsn't make sense

Dude I don't want to sound offensive but I might do.
I know you have a brain. Read everything I posted, and there's no way you won't see that her claim makes total sense with the setup.

[Wisdom]

So what should happen is that all of you should stop thinking about all this setup thing, leave it aside, read my case on Mirari, and tell me how she could possibly be town. If you can't tell me that, I won't accept you not to sheep me on her.

[Mirari]

I will address everything later tonight. Just give me enough time to do so.

[Mirari]

All of the recent claims (Mala, Fitz) make me really question my hypothesis about Matt's role.

[penguin_alien]

Caught up. I'm not lynching Mala, period. Her reactions make no sense from scum, and no way scum-Mala would keep fake scum-reading me all the way to the gallows. On a less personal level, the role just makes too much sense.

MattP looks worse to me, but I'd like to see where Mirari goes.

[Nachomamma8]

So, you heard it here first, folks.

Mala/Matt/mollie is the scumteam.

Replace Mala with nacho if I'm somehow wrong there.

Everyone else is town.

I thought you were most certain about your Mala-read? The thing in bold suggests that's the one uyou're least certain about. Could you explain?

Mollie/Malakittens/MattP is the scumteam.

That's my highly educated guess.

It is the read I'm most certain about. I just don't see Nacho being scum with Mala given the extraordinary amount of WKing. I think that if Nacho is scum, Mala is town.

And why can't you see me being town with Mala again?

[Nachomamma8]

I'll try compressing all my thoughts in this single post.

Spoiler: Why Mala is scum

• She has ignored posts she should be responding to and only did so after prodded about it or didn't do it at all.
  
• She has been focusing on a single player and has done little if any scumhunting. When her one suspect posted, she didn't care about the post until later.
  
• She has repeatedly addressed, pointed out, or generally placed her focus on irrelevant things or things with zero value in regards to finding scum. Notably, some of those things could have some value to appearing less scummy. An example would be "I have to go see the number of the games I have with Nacho and with Wisdom". Nobody cares.
  
• She made a huge deal of my "tunneling" on her in the beginning of the game, back when what I was doing wasn't even remotely resembling a tunnel. She even threatened to replace out. It is completely fake if you consider that I have never tunneled on her before when she was town. I have tunneled on her twice when she was scum.
  
• Her "I thought MattP is an Actor" thing is out of character for her and looks fake. Imo, this even looks like it was pre-planned by a scumpartner, especially considering Matt's reply to it. But that's speculation. The point is it's fake.
  
• The reads she has provided do not seem natural. For example, her mollie read is weird. She used something completely null, mollie's chair thing, to enhance her townread on her, which was there since early for no apparent reason, and she has not doubted it at all despite mollie being completely weird and useless.
  
• Similarities with other Mala-scum games I have witnessed. I went into details about that in a previous post.
  
• There are times that Mala looks like she is not following the game closely, such as her "penguin is scum and you don't want to see it" to me, when I had stated that I am scumreading penguin, but some posts of her like 879(dude he (mattp) took a break) shows she is actually following and picking up even little details like that. Which means that when it looks like she is not following, it's an act.

Spoiler: Why Matt is scum

• As noted by others, he is less active and less engaged as compared to when he is town [
  counter argument
  : He claimed he is changing his play after his break]
  
• His buddying on me. People who don't know me enough get paranoid with my egocentric playstyle and think I am scum (see shos and Whiskers). Matt didn't doubt his read on me but only when people started stating their suspicion of the mutual buddying. And then found an excuse to go back to townreading me, too easily.
  
• His last posts since the "morality issue" have been centered around it. It's like he stopped caring about the game and started caring only about people "finding him immoral". What he did cannot be considered immoral, no matter which way you look at it; but even so, that's not even what's important. What's important is that he is overreacting and using that thing as a distraction.
  
• His involvement in Mala's "Actor" thing in the beginning - he reacted instantly when Mala began that, and his response was a little theatrical. It could point to it being a pre-organised plan. Again, speculation, and this point will only matter if Mala flips scum.
  
• He has stopped scumhunting (third point relevant) and has parked his vote on shos.

Spoiler: Why mollie is scum

• Her Whiskers push is too nonsensical and stupid, even for mollie. She should understand by now that Whiskers plays like that, and she should at least be ignoring him if not having fixed the issue between them. The whole thing is an act and a distraction.
  
• She is not scumhunting (above point relevant). She should have some suspects by now - she has none. When asked who she wants to lynch, she dodged and said that penguin is better than Mala. Which was not an answer.
  
• Some of her reads looks very fake. For instance, the read she gave on MattP in 1338 looks like a textbook fake townread that applies to every scenario.
  
• Meta. This is not how town-mollie plays. I won't go into details.
  
• Counter argument:
  mollie can be this stupid sometimes and focus on things that might not make much sense (hence my "when does mollie ever make sense" to Desperado). But I think she is way past the acceptable limit.

Spoiler: Why Nacho might be scum

• Meta. It's the first time I see him not being the town-leader. Or actually, I have seen him not being the town-leader again - he was scum.
  
• Extreme WKing on Mala. He knows I can read Mala, and he has seen me shouting to people to lynch her only for Mala to go on to win the game because people, including him, didn't listen. He should at least doubt his townread on her a little. Instead he is being stubborn and tries everything he can to discredit my read on her - claiming I am tunneling, misrepping my case to a bunch of bullshit that makes no sense, etc. I really believe town-Nacho would consider the possibility I am right, however small that might be in his mind.
  
• He is not scumhunting. He is not pushing anyone. I've never seen Nacho being this passive and pushing completely noone. He has been voting shos after sheeping Matt, and has not cared to try and actually read shos. He has not tried to interact with shos to see how shos might be town. He does not have other suspects! Nacho should have tons of things to say and actual suspects at this point in the game. Nothing. And again, even if he's voting shos, he is not actually pushing for him to be lynched. Which he always does with his suspects.
  
  Note: As I said, I don't think he is scum with Mala, but he could be scum with the other two. So I think that if I am somehow wrong about Mala, Nacho replacing her in the scumteam still makes sense.

Spoiler: Other people who could be scum but don't really think so

-shos: I think his posting has greatly improved lately, while his earlier play was just bad town play. Still, there's always the possibility he managed to improve his otherwise obvious scumplay from earlier and turn it into something that can make sense as town.
-penguin: More or less, same as shos. She seemed very scummy in the beginning, especially considering her meta, but her later posts starting with that wall are much better and could mean that she just had a slow start.
-havingfitz: Only due to the fact that we have not seen much content from that slot, so everything is possible. Arc was kinda town considering her meta though, so I don't think so.
-Mirari: I liked penguin's read on her. I did not like her "Mala is voting her, wagon is so good", nor did I like her "You are all crazy, Mala is town", especially considering she is still a newbie with 2? completed games. She does not appear to consider the fact Mala could be scum at all. And I don't like her sticky read on penguin either. Still, her general tone, especially early, gave me town vibes, so I can't say I can be sure about anything here.

Spoiler: The rest of the players are town

-Whiskers: I very much like the way he is scrutinizing people. I also like how he does not get swayed by whatever says but questions everything and tries to prove how it might not make sense. For example, shos stated that the penguin wall was hard to attack - he proved that point wrong. Or, while he kind of came to an understanding of why I found Mala scummy, he still called me out on the things he thought didn't make sense. Not to mention his paranoia of my playstyle and even his attempts of trying to make me play less for myself and more for the town, which are always positive points for a player who meets me for the first time. Very very town, will never lynch.
-Grimgroove: I like his reads, which align very much with mine, as well as the various theories he comes up with. I also liked the way he reacted when I semi-faked a tunnel on him early on. It reminded me of the town-Grimgroove I had actually tunneled on in another game.
-ooba: I liked him since the beginning, and he has not given me any reason to change that. I like his content, and while I might disagree with some of his reads, they don't appear fake or opportunistic.
-Desperado: He made me paranoid for a while because of his sheeping, but that stopped mattering much when I saw his aggressive push on mollie, which I very much liked. Then I was even more happy in my townread on him when he continued scumreading Mala despite my stating that she is town.

And to reiterate, the correct lynch among those 3(4?) most scummy players for me is Mala. She is the most scummy, and regardless, her lynch will be a great information source. There are at least 3 people who claim that they are strongly townreading her and at least 4 people who claim they are strongly scumreading her. While this diversity can be found on other players (penguin, for example), the reads are nowhere as strong.

1) I am playing from an iPad. MattP is in the game, and I will occasionally take a backseat to players I respect to a significant degree, as you can see in hunter hunter. But the big thing that you should be focusing on is that I'm playing from an iPad so me not taking control to the extent that I usually do shouldn't be a large alarm, considering I'm being just as aggressive as I normally am.
2) I don't believe that you have some special ability to read Mala. I do think you can read Mala better than I can. I can also see when your read on Mala is composed of bullshit, and I have no problem stepping in to defend her when you're tunneling past the realm of sanity. For example, look at my interactions with Mollie in any game ever. Look at me white knight Mollie in a game like Pikmin versus me white knighting her in a game like Xenogears. The difference is how hard the target is being attacked; I am willing to listen to your case when you make it, but when you ignore very very basic points that I make of course I am going to bury you entirely. The reasons I would defend someone are 1) because I am scum and think that defending them will gain me cred (but why would I shut down a horrible tunnel on someone I know you can read? Hmmm.), or 2) because I think the person is town, I believe in my reasons for it, and your reasons for believing do are bad.
3) I am pushing shos. I am pushing grim. I am pushing penguin. These are my three main suspects. I am interacting with shos currently, over an attack of Mala. I have not interacted with him too harshly because iPad and excessive walls and business, but I have given him chances to prove himself town, I have deliberated on things. There is a large portion of content in these posts that you're ignoring or not caring to see.

[Wisdom]

Your excuses are bad. Ipad or not, your play would not be this different.

[Nachomamma8]

Mala case:

1) she ignored one penguin post once. I mentioned how she probably saw a large wall and didn't want to respond to it, which is similar to how grim groove saw my big wall in response to him and pocketed it for later.
2) this isn't a trait of mala-scum and tunneling isn't a scumtell, as you damn well know.
3) the specific example you quote was mala seeing who ended up reading her better, in order to make a point. I haven't seen other irrelevant things, I don't think that going off into rabbit holes is a scumtell. I think it's something that happens.
4) your tunnels frustrate people. It is usually clear when you are about to tunnel someone, whether you acknowledge that bit or not. And just because you are right when you tunnel occasionally doesn't mean that your tunnels still aren't frustrating.
5) why is it out of character again? Is this a tendency of Malascum?
6) mollies chair thing isn't null, sorry. She also had other reasons for thinking mollie town, but I'm fairly sure you didn't address those. Why not?
7) you said that she ignores you as scum. She hasn't ignored you this game.
8) sometimes people pick up on things, sometimes they don't. This isn't a scumtell.

[Wisdom]

Why are you even commenting on outdated things?

[Wisdom]

But since you did, your defence once again is awful and shows no intent to recconsider your read, not even a little. More proof that you're scum.

[Nachomamma8]

Matt case:

1) he isn't actually more engaged as town is the real counter argument here.
2) Matt is a better player than both of those people. I townread you when I initially played with you. Sometimes people sync up on a read and feel great about it. People dont need meta in order to townread active, aggressive play styles.
3) distraction from what? It's a big deal to some people to be called immoral, especially when they are frustrated with an immoral move from someone else.
5) he hasn't stopped scumhunting. He hasn't parked his vote on shos. He's shifted tempo which isn't a horribly large deal.

[Wisdom]

lol

[Nachomamma8]

Your excuses are bad. Ipad or not, your play would not be this different.

The only one of my games that even look vaguely like my old town game is pick and ban. Find another one that you're talking about or stop talking about your theories and pretending like they are reality.

[Nachomamma8]

Why are you even commenting on outdated things?

I can't imagine why. I'm probably not reading currently. This has happened before.

[Nachomamma8]

Awful cases don't make me reconsider my reads, sorry. Were they supposed to?

[Elyse]

Votecount 1.16

penguin_alien - 3 - Malakittens, ooba, Mirari (L-4)
Mirari - 2 - penguin_alien, Wisdom (L-5)
shos - 1 - Nachomamma8 (L-6)
Malakittens - 4 - Desperado, shos, Whiskers, MattP (L-3)
Whiskers - 1 - pirate mollie (L-6)
MattP - 1 - havingfitz (L-6)

Not voting - Grimgroove

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.
Deadline: (expired on 2013-12-21 12:00:00)

Interesting Fact #17: The color of the blood of the gods is gold, and it is called ichor.

[Wisdom]

My case was not awful. Town-you would at least consider it before shooting it down like that.

[Nachomamma8]

Mollie case:

1) my concern with the current Mollie push is not that it is nonsensical; it's that her pushes generally strengthen in conviction the longer she pushes them as town and this one seems to have petered out. By now, I would have expected shouty text and cheer leading emotes and calling me stupid instead of what we've seen so far. The fact that her attack has devolved into something so personal though, is also something that seems unlikely to be coming from mollie-scum. Usually that sort of thing bothers her pretty deeply, and in particular the cyber stalking and recent attacks seem like something mollie wouldn't do unless she legitimately felt it.
2) the whiskers suspect seems pretty obvious. She has voiced uncomfortability with groovy. Peng is probably the third suspect of hers. She has had suspects!
4) not how scum mollie plays either, which is the problem.