Mini 1524: Olympian Gods Mafia - Game Over

[Grimgroove]

@Malakittens:

How the hell would I be confirmed town to you if I told you whether or not I'm immune to Lover-isations?
How would that make us a mini-townblock? Why would I read you as town reciprocally?
You just say there already are lovers in the game, so why would there be further lover-isations for me to be immune against anyway?

!!!!!

......

I don't know what I was thinking. I needed sleep pretty damn bad and I wasn't writing or thinking clearly.

Your role overlaps with mine (I think I might be reading too much into my flavor. If I took the flavor at face value and the delayed part at full value it sounds more like neighborizers and not lovers.) The lover thing I was thinking about probably falls more into the "aphrodite" part of my role as I have to wait for "love" to connect before using my role. (Summarized I think enough without being modkilled.)

Because I believe Wis is town, with you being town to me; there's a block of three. You wouldn't read me as town reciprocally, but I would be more likely to prove myself to you in order to get some type of block forming to better the chances of town winning.

Wisdom, I want your views on this reply by Malakittens.
Keep in mind that earlier, right afgter I had claimed Virgin, she asked me how far this virginhood extended. When I asked her why, she claimed to have a theory.
And now she gives me this.
I'll elaborate on my views on this later, but Wisdom, don't ignore this.
I'll look at your Mirari-case today.

[Grimgroove]

Spoiler: Why Mirari is scum

• First, let's remind everyone of 195. I didn't care much about it at the time, but it is a stupid, useless, filler question.
  
• 216 - "ooba votes are bad". The reason she gives for that in 302 is very weak - "i dont think he would be doing that as scum". That doesn't explain her confidence that ooba is so super town that nobody should be voting him. It looks awfully like buddying ooba, especially considering they know each other irl.
  
• 310 - she accuses shos of posting filler - what has she posted up to this point that is not filler? Looks hypocritical, and sheeping others on the big wagon.
  
• 699 - The aforementioned Mala fangirling, that came out of nowhere. She assumes that Mala is town, she assumes that Mala can read penguin like a book, and so she states that Mala scumreading penguin somehow strengthens the likelihood of penguin being scum. All that without having played with either, and without being able to know if Mala is town or not.
  
• 1303 and 1307 - More Mala WKing - "you are all crazy for thinking she is scum". Completely unwarranted given Mala's play.
  
• Some of the reads she gives in 1359 are very bad, especially her Nacho one.
  
• 1360 and 1363 - again taking Mala's side in the Mala-peng ordeal without any visible reason. Too much confidence that Mala has to be town and peng has to be scum that comes from nowhere.
  
• 1526 -
  and note that here start the stronger scumtells
  - she once again spams about us having to lynch penguin. Note that in all of her posts, there has been no attempts to try and interact with penguin, like a town player would do to ensure their read. She is just taking it for granted that penguin is scum (and that Mala is town) and never tries to reconsider or work with penguin or work with anyone else (not even ooba) to see if she could be wrong in her reads. I'll also point out her "I think both neighborizers are town", which I found weird at the time that we didn't know much yet and it seemed weird to believe such a thing.
  
• In 1531 she claims she is "pushing" penguin, while all she has done is vote her and state that she wants her to be lynched. And before Whiskers or someone comes here and says "but that's a push Wisdom", no it isn't. I was telling her that she is tunneling on penguin and in response to that, she said that she is not tunneling but actually pushing her.
  
• 1540.
  The most important scumtell for Mirari.
  She is overexplaining what penguin's motivation is behind her stating that she is willing to lynch Mala. This thing does not come from town. This thing comes from scum who wants to manipulate people. It's really typical, it's exactly how scum go about manipulating. I don't know how else to describe it, she is giving fake reasons for why penguin did what she did.
  
• 1557 - "I don't need to interact with scum, they are scum". This further shows how her mindset is not a town one. She is convinced that penguin is scum and does not care to interact with her at all, she even admits so. I am one of the worst tunnelers in existence but never, and I mean NEVER, will I stop interacting with the person I am tunneling on, even if it is to tell them "you are obvscum, just die" and see their reaction. Not caring to do such a thing is absolutely a scum trait.
  
• Her defense of the Matt claim is very very weird. She struggles to find arguments to show why it could come from town and she does not want to consider that it could come from scum. In the end she even states that Matt could be lying about his role and have a stronger role - and despite that she finds the lying coming from town rather than scum. It doesn't make sense.

I like your points about Mirari's stance in the Malakittens - penguin - thing. That auto-townread on Malakittens and underexplained scumread on Penguin is definitely anti-town.

But it could be lazy town. It's a thing I've noticed in recent games as well, a lot of town is looking scummy simply because they don't care about the game as much as people like you and I do.

What you consider the most important scumtell I consider one of the weakest. It just stems from your disagreement with the way Mirari has been playing the game. I think the argument she put there is definitely one that possibly comes from town: looking at possible motivations for actions and picking out what seems to be the most likely one to you. At least this is a push on penguin.

I agree with you the defense on the MAttP claim is weird, but I find anyone who doesn't want MattP lynched right now weird.

It's not a bad case, but there's nothing conclusive enough. As part of your case also revolves around MattP's scummy claim, please consider voting him as a form of middle ground.

I agree Malakittens can wait, but I still think she's scummy as hell.

[pirate mollie]

@ mod - due to changes IRL circumstances I request to be replaced. sorry guys.

[Desperado]

@ mod - due to changes IRL circumstances I request to be replaced. sorry guys.

<3

[ooba]

@ mod - due to changes IRL circumstances I request to be replaced. sorry guys.

Bye mollie.

---

I'm back and reading - upto fitz's claim - I like this setup already

[Wisdom]

bai mollie

[Wisdom]

Wisdom, I want your views on this reply by Malakittens.
Keep in mind that earlier, right afgter I had claimed Virgin, she asked me how far this virginhood extended. When I asked her why, she claimed to have a theory.
And now she gives me this.

She thought there are lovers as in the role Lover.
Did you read my post where I explained what the flavor is?
The neighborizers (male gods) make "lover"(not the role) pairs with who they neighborize.
Aphrodite, as the goddess of love, can check what the pairs are (hence QT cop).
It makes perfect sense.

[Wisdom]

I find anyone who doesn't want MattP lynched right now weird.

Why?
What is so scummy about Matt?
His restriction makes perfect sense with his flavor (Hephaestus is crippled), his claim came out of nowhere with no visible scum motivation, we know it's not a fakeclaim as two more neighborizers claimed (plus your and Mala's claim), so?
Is your only reason the stubborn belief that there must be a scum in the neighborizers?

[Wisdom]

As part of your case also revolves around MattP's scummy claim, please consider voting him as a form of middle ground.

I don't understand this. I find how Mirari handled the Matt claim very scummy, that doesn't mean I find the Matt claim scummy. Not anymore, anyway. So I don't understand why you'd expect me to use this as a "middle ground".

You basically shrugged off my case, which I find sad. No, there's no way this is "lazy town". This is scum.

[Grimgroove]

What is so scummy about Matt?

You can't believe how inclined I was to use a profanity against you upon reading this.

But you did sell me on Malakittens-town. I'm hoping everyone agrees that the neighborizers shouldn't be neighborizing as long as Malakittens is around.

[Wisdom]

looking at possible motivations for actions and picking out what seems to be the most likely one to you.

Just no. Go and read what she posted again. That is a clear attempt at manipulation, not a "possible motivation for penguin's action". She stated that that's what it is and it's final, she's trying to make others sheep her belief. This cannot come from town, there is no fucking way.

[Grimgroove]

looking at possible motivations for actions and picking out what seems to be the most likely one to you.

Just no. Go and read what she posted again. That is a clear attempt at manipulation, not a "possible motivation for penguin's action". She stated that that's what it is and it's final, she's trying to make others sheep her belief. This cannot come from town, there is no fucking way.

Yet you are doing the exact same thing right here.

[Wisdom]

You can't believe how inclined I was to use a profanity against you upon reading this.

You can't believe how inclined I am to punch a wall upon reading the majority of posts in this game. But I'm trying my best to hold back.

[Wisdom]

looking at possible motivations for actions and picking out what seems to be the most likely one to you.

Just no. Go and read what she posted again. That is a clear attempt at manipulation, not a "possible motivation for penguin's action". She stated that that's what it is and it's final, she's trying to make others sheep her belief. This cannot come from town, there is no fucking way.

Yet you are doing the exact same thing right here.

...seriously?
How is that the exact same thing?


A: penguin: I support a Mala lynch, but I prefer Mirari right now.
B: Mirari: omg she is scum who doesn't want to commit to the Mala wagon so obvscum
C: Wisdom: What Mirari did comes from scum because town don't think that way.

How the hell is B and C the same? I am judging an action in context with everything else Mirari has done and the way it was worded. There is no way that is a town thought process there. Can you say the same about Mirari? Had penguin not made it clear that Mala is in her interests? Had penguin not made it clear that she scumreads Mirari more? Why would town not consider the possibility penguin is just town who wants to support her higher scumread's lynch more than her lower scumread's?

[Wisdom]

Also answer 1982. 1984 is not an answer.

[Grimgroove]

I'm not going to answer 1982. Just look at my ISO. Same goes for you as for Nachomamma: if you want me to dance like your puppet, don't give me boring assignments. We have talked about MattP extensively during this game, you know full well why I think he's scum. The only argument that's dropped is his association with Malakittens through that emo-shit, but all the other stuff still holds.

[ooba]

Regarding the setup:

- Wisdom's theory on Male neighbourizers forming 'lover' pairs seem bang on - it also makes me feel better about the Haep being N claim
- There necessarily does not have to be 1 scum amongst the Ns. Here's what I think:
-- I do not think any of them {Ns - Whis, Matt, fitz + QTCop - Mala + Virgin - Grim} are lying about their role
-- Amongst the Ns - fitz has the biggest probability of being scum. Him not claiming would look worse later and claiming now puts additional pressure on the Matt wagon.
Overall: This list {Whis, Matt, fitz, Mala, Grim} has at least 4 town IMO.

Over the last twenty pages:

Nacho: I just completed a scum game with Nacho. Nacho not posting is always a warning sign. But his iPad excuse + level of conviction isn't something I would expect from scum Nacho. Not calling town - but not lynching.
Grim: I liked Grim's couple of posts. (Not the '1 of them have to be scum', but the posts before that)
shos: I hate the 'terribad crumb is bad' and 'useless role' theories to lynch Mala. Still not sure if he's scum though.
Overall:
Removing Town (Wisdom, Mirari, Whiskers, Mollie) & the Neutral+ (Matt, Mala, Nacho, Grim) - it narrows down my lynch candidates to:
Fitz
shos
Desp
Peng

---

Wisdom - you're wrong on Mirari. I can't see this as her scum game at all.

[Grimgroove]

looking at possible motivations for actions and picking out what seems to be the most likely one to you.

Just no. Go and read what she posted again. That is a clear attempt at manipulation, not a "possible motivation for penguin's action". She stated that that's what it is and it's final, she's trying to make others sheep her belief. This cannot come from town, there is no fucking way.

Yet you are doing the exact same thing right here.

...seriously?
How is that the exact same thing?


A: penguin: I support a Mala lynch, but I prefer Mirari right now.
B: Mirari: omg she is scum who doesn't want to commit to the Mala wagon so obvscum
C: Wisdom: What Mirari did comes from scum because town don't think that way.

How the hell is B and C the same? I am judging an action in context with everything else Mirari has done and the way it was worded. There is no way that is a town thought process there. Can you say the same about Mirari? Had penguin not made it clear that Mala is in her interests? Had penguin not made it clear that she scumreads Mirari more? Why would town not consider the possibility penguin is just town who wants to support her higher scumread's lynch more than her lower scumread's?

Ok, not exactly the same, but similar.

You attributes/sees scummy intentions ("manipulation") to/in something Mirari did ("seeing scum motivation in an action by penguin alien") and present them as fact.
Mirari attributed/saw scummy intentions ("fencesitting") to/in something penguin_alien did ("expressing interest in a Mala-lynch but holding back from it") and present them as fact.

Granted, your arguments are a bit better, but that can still be attributed to laziness.

And also, look at penguin_alien's 1960 where p_A is quite wishy-washy about her earlier read on Malakittens, which was pretty clear in 1486 and earlier in 992.
In 1960 penguin is basically denying to ever have scumread Malakittens.

This means Mirari is actually on to something.

[Wisdom]

No, ooba, you are wrong. And not just on Mirari. Your lynchpool is 4 townies.

[Grimgroove]

I misread 1960.
Scratch what I said about that.

[Wisdom]

In 1960 penguin is basically denying to ever have scumread Malakittens

Dude for real?
Why are you misrepping? That's not what penguin is saying at all. In fact she is saying the opposite - Mala said "you are back to townreading me?" and penguin said "back to? When did I townread you?"

[Grimgroove]

Yes, I thought it said "Back to? I never was away from townreading you."

[Wisdom]

Also there's no wishy-washiness in the other posts either. In 992 she clearly quotes a Mala post and says "this is not town". That's a clear scumtell.
As for 1486 (which is the post that Mirari referred to), she said that she would support a Mala lynch but she'd still prefer Mirari. Tons of townies say such a thing. Priorities. Primary scumread and compromise scumread. Besides, why did she have to vote Mala at that moment? She was at L-2 and we still had 2 weeks left. There are tons of town motivation to do what penguin did. There is no excuse for Mirari not considering that at all.

[Wisdom]

That's a clear scumtell.

scumread*

[Grimgroove]

Also there's no wishy-washiness in the other posts either.

I didn't say there was.