Open 175 - Picking Simplicity (Game Over)

[Iguana]

/in

[Iguana]

It'll help get discussion going.

Why? You are going to base a serious vote on a random vote reasoning?

[Iguana]

It'll help get discussion going.

Why? You are going to base a serious vote on a random vote reasoning?

What? Games here usually start with an random voting stage to get the game off the ground. If you don't like random votes, fine. Just don't expect that to be the normal opinion around this site.

Ah but what really is the point of a random phase in the end? Working under the assumption that a random voting phase is the effective equivilant to just baselessly bandwagoning a player off the bat and then progressing from there giving reactions, we reach the conclusion of it doesnt matter, or at the very least is not as effective.

Correct me if I am wrong, but a random phase of voting will likely end up in either a wagon on a player for weak if any reasons, or a wagon for an odd vote move in a majority of games. Basically look for a slight tell and blow it out of porportion. Now, this is accomplished by a baseless wagon too, and I think it actually brings out more tells then random phases, which can usually be forgotten by "its random"

So why random votes? All we are doing either way is going through the motions untill someone does something stupid.

[Iguana]

Now, this is accomplished by a baseless wagon too, and I think it actually brings out more tells then random phases, which can usually be forgotten by "its random"

So you agree that baseless bandwagonning is good for discussion and tells?

Yes, it brings more tells then "vote <player> for <joke>"

[Iguana]

Now, this is accomplished by a baseless wagon too, and I think it actually brings out more tells then random phases, which can usually be forgotten by "its random"

So you agree that baseless bandwagonning is good for discussion and tells?

Yes, it brings more tells then "vote <player> for <joke>"

You realise that that is how a baseless wagon is built, right?

Random voting tends to follow a slightly different path then baseless wagoning.

On that note, why aren't you trying to build a baseless wagon?

Though I had voted in that second post of mine already

Vote Nikanor

On a side note, how serious were you about your comment to SB?

[Iguana]

Good. Now, are you trying to build a baseless wagon, or do you have some other reason for voting me?

Somewhere in between. There was no clear wagon leader, but since you are openly saying that you see a scumtell on someone, why arent you persuing the wagon at all?

[Iguana]

I don't know what the hell Flava-85's up to.

Really? I thought it was a bit too obvious of a move...

unvote
vote yabbaguy

go go gadget bandwagon

[Iguana]

Really? I thought it was a bit too obvious of a move...

Elaborate. I'm not sure what "move" I made aside from voting a scummy player.

metagaming

players have been caught for changing their playstyle before, and will continue to be. Sounded like you have past experience that suggests he doesnt play like that as town.

[Iguana]

Somewhere in between. There was no clear wagon leader, but since you are openly saying that you see a scumtell on someone, why arent you persuing the wagon at all?

It's a conditional scumtell. If one of Snow_Bunny or dramonic flips scum, I'm going to look back at that 'random' vote. For now, I'll ignore it, though.

So are they town or scum for now? Thats actually really streaching for a scumtell, which is why I like my style a bit more, people get jumpy. Uneasy is easier to read then jokey.

unvote
vote nikanor

Half wagon, half I really dont like this. It gives you complete justification to lynch someone based on a joke.

For the zwet thing, hard to play with players are actually somewhat easy to read if you are used to them. Actually then tend to be much easier to read then good players. Either way in these games they are excellent cop targets, since scum dont want to kill them, and people tend to be against policy lynching (something I never have understood)

[Iguana]

unvote
vote 12kb

even though its not really in the form I like, I have enough information here to get out of the random stage with it being exceedingly obvious that Scott and Flava are town, and that 12kb is an excellent wagon to start with.

Zero addition to the game early, zero attempt to even be remotely usefull, and eventually a stutter step on a policy lynch idea. He is not even trying to back up either of the sides, just taking the stance that will let him jump on a policy lynch if he can, and if not, avoid having to push the wagon.

He is scum, serious wagon time.

[Iguana]

And I second an explanation for why single-votes are anti-town.

I can actually answer this one.

In a game based on interactions between people, having comparisons of "one or the other" give the most information. In fact, in most cases where there is only one person getting votes, they are town, outted scum, or really bad scum getting bussed. On the first day this holds especially true. Go back and look at old games, one clear day one suspect is usually town.

Now, there are two useless areas for votes, in the not voting category, or in the "throwaway" category. The throwaway is even more dangerous due to the fact that it gives the illusion of actively contributing to the game, while really you just get to hide away and not worry about getting your feet wet. Ive played before as scum where I spent multiple days just camping on a wagon of town who I knew had no reasonable chance of getting lynched, but because I still brought up my points, and town was fractured enough, I just got ignored and people thought I was scumhunting.

So. Throwaway votes are distinctly anti-town due to the fact that they give the illusion of scumhunting while in all actuallity they are a way to avoid the major lines of discussion and slip into the shadows while not appearing to be doing so.

[Iguana]

Scott is town? He posted 3 times, two of which were irrelevant RVS posts. Can you elaborate please.

iso 2 and 3 are very good points. He is trying to start a wagon on a legitimate thing, he is asking questions that need to be answered, he is town.

[Iguana]

What is an RVS post?

RVS is an acronym for Random Voting Stage, which occurs before anyone has any information. You will see it on every forum.

I dont think newbie games will really help much, if anything go

read

an old newbie game. The only difference between that and this is that this has more players, and that this has slightly experienced players. Learning curve is sharp regardless of environment.

[Iguana]

There are several players following the same pattern as 12kb. Why is he a more logical choice for a bandwagon than you?

The whole thing over the policy lynch suggestion. Most others went with a definant stance, he just did a fence sit

[Iguana]

2. Is lurking bad?
3. what does it mean to

FoS

(name) someone?

2 Yes, lurking leaves someone in the game who you are unable to get a read on, which in turn slightly hurts reads on others. You dont need to have 24-7 access, but being able to post two or three times a day is ideal.

3 FoS is Finger of Suspicion. It basically equates to "I would like to vote you but player X is scummier and is getting my vote" (the awesome version) or "I think you looks scummy but am not quite ready to vote" (the pussy version). Excessive FoSing is a scumtell.

@people pressuing WW

Dont attack someone for being new. Almost every new person will simply selfdestruct if you attack for that, and we already are seeing it start. Most of them crash and burn when pressured for something they do already. If they read a newbie game (it takes maybe two hours to do so) they should be able to participate in an open game.

By the way, WW is also town.

[Iguana]

By the way, WW is also town.

Why do you think that? I am both probing and legitimately curious, as I always have a terrible time reading people like WW.

New players who are obviously new and may be in over their heads are the easiest players to get a good read on, especially if they have some experience but maybe not as much as the rest of the players.

He is playing like most people who are used to an early wagon that just results in a lynch comes from. Maybe even he is from a site where popularity plays a factor in D1 lynch, I wouldnt be shocked but I think it transcends that by a bit. Basically there are core people who rarely if ever get lynched D1, but the lynches D1 are mostly random, based on some slight tells.

Anyway, he has realized that is not how things work all the time and is working on getting reads of people actively, moving around his vote to the most usefull spot, and actively trying to be a usefull part of the town. It seems to be a little on shakey ground for him, and the next few posts after being kicked down a bit by players for some reason will likely solidify my current read.

So yeah, WW is really obviously town. SB and FF are still likely town. F13... leans there but im not ready to put him there. 12KB is scum, we should lynch him ASAP, or at least get a big wagon going

[Iguana]

Iguana, I appreciate your opinions, but this illustrates my point exactly. You've mentioned four people leaving 15 others (not including you) any four of whom could be scum. If they are scum they would be doing just fine since there are so many people here it would be ridiculously easy to slip by.

I post enough without keeping close tabs on everyone, shallow jesture cometh though. Townish and Scummy is mostly gut-ish things or weak tells. Neutral people need to talk more. Would be down to lynch 12kb almost, would be down to wagon any scummy.

Town
WarWound
Scott Brosius

Townish
Head_Honcho
Blastinus
Flava Flave
foilist13

Neutral
zwetschenwasser
skitzer
Hyl
Col.Cathart
YankCane151
Snow_Bunny
Vaya

Scummy
Nikanor
dramonic
yabbaguy
Toro
Pomegranate

Scum
12Keyblade

[Iguana]

meh, VI is basically anyone who gets lynched in more then a third of thier games, or more then about a fifth D1. That or has had more then one person try to policy lynch them. VI=lynchable in laments terms.

Toro is actively lurking practically to the same degree 12KB is, and if anything, tilts scummier than 12KB.

No... 12kb is actually comitting scumtells. Toro just insnt being overlyhelpful.

Look, from 12kb we have comments like

I also think Keyblade is trying to post as much as possible so he doesn't look like a lurker. He hasn't really said much of value though.

I was waiting for the end of RVS. Found it!

God, I love early bandwagons on me.

You withheld relevant content because we were still in the RVS? If other players were scum-hunting, why would you do this?

I did not say this. I said that I was waiting for the nonsense that is the RVS to end before I began to reanalyze the data and draw conclusions.

Both of these signifiy that he does realize that events have been occuring that are tells. That is why the RVS stage is over. At the point you recognize it ends, you should have a serious vote out for basically the remainer of the game. He realizes that we are in that stage, but still is refusing to contribute, and in the former of the two posts, is still cracking bad jokes.

So first we have avoiding scumhunting, not lukring. These are two different things.

Anybody have a good way of telling when zwet's play is just anti-town as opposed to scummy? I've never been able to decipher his gameplay after all this time.

Who cares, the solution to both is a lynch!

/concur in a half-serious manner.

Later we have this, which in all seriousness, I would be fine to vig on. Again, we are past a random stage and he is not doing anything that really is related to scumhunting. I have zero idea on what he thinks of people when apparently he saw some sort of a tell. This is also a classic fence on what usually becomes a hot topic if someone is interested in it. Policy lynch ideas are somewhat suggested at this point, and he sort of agrees.

He doesnt say that he would go for it, and he doesnt say that he would be against it. This basically allows him to get on the lynch if it ever reaches that point, as he sort of agrees with it, nice and easy to get on the wagon. At the same time he will not need to ever push or support a zwet wagon from what he has said. Like I said earlier, the perfect fence sit on this thing.

Him coming back to a big wagon would be a great way to get this game into overdrive.

[Iguana]

Iguana: I find your inconsistency on your positionings of Scott Brosius and Flava Flave on your list interesting, especially when you said earlier that Scott was only likely town. It's just something I think a scum partner would do to another scum partner (in this case Flava Flave), so that it appeared that the player was at least somewhat suspicious of that person. Also, why are yabbaguy and Pomegranate on your Scummy list?

SB is far more obviously town then FF is, at the same time SB is still not my top town pick. The order in the groups is insignificant, its just by OP order. FF looks town, I just dont think he is quite as town as the other two, he is more town then the other leaning town players though. If I put in a category between the two, he would be there alone. Im not going to vote anyone I lean town though, they would be my 'protect as doctor' list with SB/WW getting the bodyguard status. I dont want to go into scummy/cop too much, since cop should be checking null to gut read players who most of the town has as null. I guess you can say vig all slight scummy players.

Anyways.

For YG, he works as a partner to just about all of my suspects who transcend the 'gut' category. Its not a strong thing, which is why I am not adovcating a lynch of him, but it is something that makes him slightly scummy.

Pom is actually my second pick for scum, I dont want to case build in the office, but I will try to at home.

[Iguana]

Might need to re-evaluate with a replacement, might not. Lynch would be informative, moving a wagon would be too. Nothing much to add untill a replacement shows and gives thoughts, although it really wont change that he is replacing a legitimately scummy player.

[Iguana]

Toro, zwet, dram, and WW are poor contributors to this game in general out of all the people actively posting. Not a fan of that.

Its too bad WW is town given his contribution level, but he is town. I would take lurky town over active unknown in an endgame.

Iguana, don't tell scum what you'd do with any night actions you may or may not have. Also, don't respond to this.

Purple monkey dishwasher, climbing a tree.

Also it really doesnt matter. If I can scare scum by looking town, hunting AND acting like im a PR about to bust them or give them second thoughts about who to kill, I will absorb a kill.

[Iguana]

Purple monkey dishwasher, climbing a tree.

Also it really doesnt matter. If I can scare scum by looking town, hunting AND acting like im a PR about to bust them or give them second thoughts about who to kill, I will absorb a kill.

Oh for god's sake, I can't hardly believe I'm the only one voting you.

Gimme something to respond to and you wont be able to hardly believe you ever were voting me.

[Iguana]

Kill the scum or kill the WIFOM. Both say kill the lizard.

So because I created WIFOM im either scum or a liability? Hell im not sure if you are scum or not since pressuring a top poster is a slight town tell, but this seems unjustified pressure.

Also gender icon

[Iguana]

That said, this whole "I MAY BE A POWER ROLE MUHAHAHA" in an open setup isn't very tech.

Its much for fun to come in all Dukes of Hazzard style with the WIFOM then it is to be sneaky with it. There is a time to be sneaky though. If you can appear reckless but have reasoning behind it, its one of the strongest playing styles.

[Iguana]

People should not speculate on what I am

I still am interested to hear cases from about half the game.

To be more specific, I would love to hear a case from Scott, HH, Spy, CC, and everyone not voting.

[Iguana]

right now, its is slightly more suspicious to me than it would have been if this was later in the game.

Why? I would of thought the exact opposite about when it sets off flags.

Foil is scum for voting Keyblade. (again another props to Iguana here) however, Keyblade, the person Hyl is currently voting, has no rationale given.

Did I do good?

Anyways. My take on the whole thing regarding this from what I see. The wagon for 12kb started with a push from me and a few others, even though I was the only one to really elaborate on the reasoning for really wanting a lynch I felt. There was quoting and agreement, but that was really it.

Now, later came the "lolz lurker" votes, of which foil was a part of. These are called "crap reasoning" votes, since he was getting replaced, a sitewide activity check supported this. Now, I dont think this type of a vote is a bussing vote. This game in particular seems to have a whole lot of mob mentality behind it, take for example the 12kb push. No one really is doing anything about it, which is concerning me a bit, but, its snowballing.

That is to say that this game will likely pick a few early wagons today, and they will never go away given the ammount of sheepish people we have as compared to

iguanas

wolves. Therefore, a continuation of the 12kb wagon in absence of any other wagon, is an extreme threat to scum if 12kb is scum. Furthering the wagon on bad reasoning is the very last thing a 12kb partner would be wanting to do, since it is sealing his doom.

This brings me to the ultimate conclusion that 12kb and foil are not going to be scum together. It makes no sense for the sacrafice of 12kb by foil at this point unless basically the entire scum team is on that wagon already, which I would really doubt.

This also means that the list from hyl is flawed to an extreme regarding the placement of these two players, unless he intents to insinuate that one of them HAS to be scum. Thats about the biggest tell from him I see though.

There is no way for Iguana to know who is town and who is scum, unless he has scumbuddies...

I've cleared both Yabbaguy and Skitzer

lol please try again

@mod

- Is the SK and mafia kills distinctive?

[Iguana]

The game did not start at night Iguana so you couldnt've investigated him, and there are no masons, and if you were claiming VT earlier then I doubt that you know who WarWound really is, or do you...scum?

There obviously are such things as scum reads, given that you are voting. Are you doubting the validity of the town read? I actually think they are more powerful then scum reads, since scum suddenly have to panic and choose to kill concensus town or PR hunt. I have a town read, nothing really has happened to cause me to drop that town read, so I am going to call him town.

And thank you for switching my words around Iguana, I said I've only cleared Yabbaguy and Skitzer

IF

WarWound comes up Scum if we lynch him.

Well you are stating the fact on a pretty bad reasoning so I figured you were just flat out calling them town. You are saying that they are town because someone you think is scum is far less likely to call town players town. I just dont get that logic, and see the opposite just as often if not more.

[Iguana]

Lets try a hard question too, why WW over me?

[Iguana]

@Iguana:

What do you think about the stance(s) Hyl has taken towards you? That's the piece of this that makes no sense and really you not saying anything about it makes no sense either.

Mostly due to confusion. I thought he was saying "I dont think that her play is overdefensive and therefore a town tell, but its still townish" it still kind of looks like that to me

[Iguana]

With the points I brought up on WarWound I feel that we could go with either WW or Iguana, but I have a feeling that WarWound will slip up more easily.[/color]

I thought so. This bugs me because you are pushing the easy case. Am I right in interpreting that you think we have the exact same chance of being scum?

@Iguana:

How is WarWound reading town to you? Show me where you've got a town-read on him.

Gut and weak town tells. I explained this once already. We arent lynching him today if I have any say in the matter.

brestfeedin

You shouldn't be breastfeeding while drunk.

Actually more concerning is that his/her gender icon used to be male

[Iguana]

So... im somewhat down for a wagon hop right now. Im deciding between two, will get back to you when I decided.

People are voting me so it would be nice to have reasoning to respond to

[Iguana]

@people who have been saying pom is scummy - At this point would you support the lynch, yes or no?

[Iguana]

unvote
Vote zwets

Wagons Ho!

Time to jump over here folks.

We have 15 posts. In those 15 post, one accusation with nothing to base it on (and no vote). One calling of town, and one post somewhat going back on that calling following it up.

This is what we call a wagon that not only will do the town better by dropping someone who shows no sign of ever intending to play the game to an acceptable extent, but also gets rid of someone who has never backed up weak attempts at hunting, and stumbled over their feet while making a town read.

That came over a read of Pom, who he claims town, followed by what looks like concession that it would be a good lynch, even if its just for information. Pro-tip, lynching someone you think is town is never* good.

*There are some ultra-extreme scenarios, this isnt one though.

[Iguana]

~Story Time~

One day CC and Pom were arguing about how the other one was scummy. Iggy sat on the sidelines watching them for a bit, scribbling in her notebook about how others were taking this. Lines going to and from the fighters, to others who also were standing around, also circles that had no lines going to and from. One stood out, it had line with a question mark, and one that was scratched out.

She walked up to CC and Pom, and said "Uhhh... guys?" pointing at the book. CC and Pom looked at the book, looked at eachother, held hands and joined Iggy in a beatdown of zwet who died, and was scum.

The end

*subtle hint*

[Iguana]

I prefer my version.

fencesitting eh? Thats a new one. I thought it was making WIFOM. Well what am I not taking a stance on?

Also you really need to learn comedy before you use it in an attack.

[Iguana]

Ad Hominem much?

No not really, I can show you some if you like though.

Anyways, you are ignoring the fact that im asking you to point out my "fencesitting". Lets have it

[Iguana]

I don't see a scumtell case on Pom at all.

Flave, mostly I see you looking for an information lynch, not a scumhunting lynch on Pom. I don't think it's a great reason to lynch someone,

but your reasoning for what the lynch would provide works for me

.

pshaw

[Iguana]

Also bothered by Iguan's drop of the Pom case. I will be looking more into that soon.

She was a fallback lynch. This means that almost enough people were ready to lynch her that if a deadline showed up, or a PR claim on a top wagon, its an easy wagon shift.

The fallback can be town who some town is vaugely suspicious of, and proper scum play can make them a possible wagon for D2/late D1. At the same time they can be scum who is in noticeably enough trouble to have light bussing occuring, but people actively are pushing for other wagons to not have her get lynched. This still allows scum to look better in regards to the wagon then if they late jump it.

Now, we saw a stall of 12kb wagon, and what occured next was a smaller shift to a pom wagon. Its why I poked it a bit. I wanted to see if it would actually take off or not. It gained enough ground in a sheeple game that I think it leans to a town wagon, that scum had on the backburner if they needed it.

Thats why I would rather lynch zwet.

@SB - I am not saying we are policy lynching. If I was saying that, I would of been voting since my first post and berrating people into following me. Now, what I am suggesting is a lynch of a player who is moderately scummy, but also will provide higher utility as a dead player then an alive player.

We not only get rid of a reasonable scum threat, but also someone who is not going to do anything proactive, never going to get a strong read on, and lurk their way though the game. Its a win-win situation. We lynch scum, or make the game easier for town.

[Iguana]

I don't see a scumtell case on Pom at all.

Flave, mostly I see you looking for an information lynch, not a scumhunting lynch on Pom. I don't think it's a great reason to lynch someone,

but your reasoning for what the lynch would provide works for me

.

pshaw

And I said I thought pom was town where?

Where you said you dont see a case on her. That comment shouldnt be made if you think she is scum.

[Iguana]

I have a neutral read on her.

Have or had? Should she be lynched for information? Who is scum for that matter? I dont think you have made a accusation based on information this entire game.

I thought you were supposed to be one of those people who posts like crazy too. What gives?

Case on 12kb from what I had was not hunting and an fence stance on the policy lynch discussion. AH looks townish to me though. Im interested about why some think otherwise.

@pom - If you think CC and zwet are scum, you should just vote zwet since that wagon is going to be taking off soon. According to your thoughts it will get scum lynched either way. I think this applies to CC too. Remember my prophetic story? Time to un-prophisize and instead actualize it.

[Iguana]

-Voted in three posts in a row at the outset of the game (albeit one random). How can she discard cases that fast?

Remember me saying that I wanted to just wagon early? Thats what I was doing for the most part. Voted to wagon, to wagon, semi serious/wagon, and serious. So when I only remotely voted seriously twice... what is your point here.

-despite 12KB being her adamant case at first, has now all but abandonned it. Not once mentioning Antihero, especially since at least one other player is noticing scumtells in his posts, is an alarm that she's lazily slipping off it while nobody's looking.

I dont think AH is scummy really, there are other scummy players, so I moved my vote to where I think its going to be better. I thought I asked but since you are an expert on the subject, why is AH scummy?

-First time she posts scumlist, appears thrown together and offers no rationale behind most of her suspects. This shouldn't be seen as pro-town at all.

Want me to go through and post a updated list with a few lines on each player? I take a stance on almost everyone after being asked. Why is that scummy?

-is trying to push a lynch merely of someone who's anti-town. That's taking advantage of someone who just doesn't play well. I see no outright scumtells in that post. This is the sort of thing I brought up with Honcho, we need to see actual scumtells. Insisting that being a poor player is scummy is scummy in itself.

Incorrect. I already posted why he is scummy. Anti-town players can be scummy. If they are scummy, all the better reason to lynch them.

-consistently asserted at one point "WarWound is town". It didn't sound so much like she had evidence for it so much as she knew already from a scum position. Granted, this diminishes with a known SK in play, but it still feels like she's feeding concrete information to us that she knows of already.

Defending a town read is a town thing to do. Im not about to let someone I see as town get lynched. I dont know anyone who would.

[Iguana]

Ya know? Why is it that I make a case and people wagon up the player on mostly unrelated things?

Also Blast, please stop applying conditional tells based on join date... join date means squadoosh

[Iguana]

@Iguana: I've seen *nothing* that says scummy from zwet, and I must've missed your cases that indicate otherwise. SpyreX, same to you. You've basically highlighted the active lurking, which is consistent with his play.

This has been answered.

The "helping the town" bit is a speculative tell. However, something in me would think that the scum kind of helps out the town by just sort of gently saying "oh yeah, he's obvtown", but it's not necessarily

based on seeing actual play

, just seeing that he's floundering was enough. That's what I based it off of.

hmmm? You want me putting up reasoning for WW being town? I think I already did that if its what you are asking. Besides, why is getting a town read on someone not many others have town reads on a bad thing?

Posting a random scumlist with no basis behind the players at the time (so player-by-player analysis (PLBPLA) isn't going to help me now) was not scumhunting to me.

It's not scummy, per se

, but it's not scumhunting either since you're basically just randomly putting people down. I thought it was a little too soon to be putting suspects down in your tiers with only a few posts from each.

So why is it part of your case against me? Also five tiers isnt that many, by mid/late game im up to 10.

@Iguana-541:

Why is it that I make a case and people wagon up the player on mostly unrelated things?

Doing that is scummy to me, so I'm intrigued. Anybody in particular you see doing this?

Just read the case I make and compare it to other votes hun. Its not all that time consuming. I didnt want 12kb lynched for lurking, he was getting replaced and scummy before that. I dont think zwet should be lynched for being new/old or making small posts.

@Blast and Yabba - Why is AH scummy?

[Iguana]

Iguana, once again, my cases have been half-assed all game. If you're still operating on the definition that everyone should be an

idealistic

pro-town player, then you are sorely mistaken. And I've stated this so many fucking times already, do you not believe me?

Well... idealy yeah. See, my job is to make sure players who are

not

pro-town die off. Im not going to operate under the premise that I should be letting scummy people off the hook because they just are making "half-assed cases". At the very least you need to get into a debate with them to determine alignment.

I would've rather you posted why WW was town at the beginning, when he was doing nothing. If you have any tells from before, please tell me.

The quick snap from what he was used to, to what is required here is very telling. No way we lynch D1 on what would of applied to him, so no way scum would of needed to make that switch to giving opinions as he did. He is town.

And I think it's too time-consuming to look for everyone's vote on AH/12KB, I'm not gonna do that. I'd rather go off observations you have off-hand, which you hinted at having, but if you don't have any, never mind. I'm just too busy to do the looking right now.

Votes on the end of the wagon touched on lurking, which was not happening. You still havent said why AH is scummy though. Seriously, why? I dont see that one.

[Iguana]

Can someone tell me how the zwet in this game is different from the zwet in every other game? Maybe then I'll consider a vote.

Allow me to just speculate and elaborate on where you seem to be headed. Zwet is always useless/scummy. Due to that, he should never be lynched because statistically he is more likely to be town. I would actually argue someone who is ALWAYS dead weight and inherantly scummy should be policy lynched, and will explain why if you want me to.

So people voting me... is there anything I havent responded to? As far as I can tell, im being voted on WIFOM, ??? and something I defended against (and apparently was accepted?)

[Iguana]

a policy lynch does seem to be in order

unvote: vote Zwet

Its not a policy lynch dammnit! It is however a good lynch

[Iguana]

Policy lynch is another word entirely, btw.

Policy lynch is getting someone who is SO anti-town, or is so abbrasive that you do not want to play with them. To such an extent that if they dont get policy lynched, you strongly debate replacing out.

This is not a policy lynch, or even really an anti-town lynch. This is a scum lynch, we also have about a week to deadline, lets go people.

[Iguana]

Can someone tell me how the zwet in this game is different from the zwet in every other game? Maybe then I'll consider a vote.

Allow me to just speculate and elaborate on where you seem to be headed. Zwet is always useless/scummy. Due to that, he should never be lynched because statistically he is more likely to be town. I would actually argue someone who is ALWAYS dead weight and inherantly scummy should be policy lynched, and will explain why if you want me to.

So why are we lynching him if it's not a good idea???

no no no... thats what YOU seem to be saying. Not me. You are starting to wander down the "he is always scummy, lets not lynch" path. I am trying to point out that massive pit filled with spikes, those creapy yellow spiders, and tiny yappy worthless dogs that you are going to fall into if you go much farther.

[Iguana]

Hey guys!

Deadline is thursday at about this time. If zwet has not had to claim by Tuesday I will see to it that people stalling this game get pressured/lynched for it. We need a majority, which means we need to act fast. That means vote zwet. Yes you, the one not voting him. Do it now.

kill kill kill
die die die

[Iguana]

I think thats L-2

Zwet needs to claim in his next post. If he does not claim in his next post, we lynch him. We need more then 48 hours to deal with any type of a claim.

[Iguana]

sigh...

I don't have a reason in the world to vote zwetschenwasser.

But because any lynch is informant, I will switch my vote on Wednesday.

Remind me to do this because by then I will have forgotten.

This post does not contain a zwet vote
This post does not contain a case on another player
This post does promise a vote in the future
This vote should of already occured
This post is stalling

The next post needs a zwet vote

[Iguana]

sigh...

I don't have a reason in the world to vote zwetschenwasser.

But because any lynch is informant, I will switch my vote on Wednesday.

Remind me to do this because by then I will have forgotten.

This post does not contain a zwet vote
This post does not contain a case on another player

This post does promise a vote in the future

This vote should of already occured
This post is stalling

The next post needs a zwet vote

Actually, this post does promise acvote in the future, namely on Wednesday.

Sounds familiar.

I would rather him just vote now, there is one reason I can think of a delay, and call me pessimistic but I dont see him being the one to do it. IRL stuff happens, if we no lynch its not going to be pretty.

[Iguana]

Spent a while looking at lurkers, hoping they can give me something.

I actually came out of it liking Grimmy for town, there were some posts in there that really are just town in nature, one of those small things that is completely unneccesary and damaging to scum. Still sort of like 12kb for town, there were some tells there, but information gleamed from that lynch is almost too much to pass up.

Zazie leans town too, around same area as 12kb given intent to change up wagons that were occuring, although it never passed so I cant give much of a point there.

Yank I dont like since he was for a bit active on other sections of the site, and I dont like Skitzer much at this point either, which is where my vote is headed once I get reasoning up.

@mod

- If a player who had an action needed to be replaced, what happened?

[Iguana]

Gamegoogoogogo

vote skitzer

Go go gadget wagon!

Friend turned 21 this weekend, I actually dont even remember that post I made saturday, but I do like my reads in it. Will try and make a case in a few days.

[Iguana]

Hold your horses hun, its comin. This isnt random

[Iguana]

For why I like skitzer lynch... we have things like

QFT, though much more applicable to zwet. Why are you [follist] requesting replacement? (If you're still listening of course )

Not quite a loaded question, but there is nothing here really that can be said that is "town" or "scum". Its more of a neutral question then anything else, one that can be interpreted by parties in different manners, and is therefor dangerous. What can be gained from this answer? Even if someone replaces out of one game on site and not others, then what? Some people hate being scum, some people hate being town, some people just hate the setup, another player, etc etc.

This is a question that adds nothing, but can cause some dangerous speculation.

We haven't heard from Nikanor lately. This is very strange.

And? More or less of saying "Hey guys, Nik is lurking!" in a way that suggests that its particuarly scummy, and kind of pokes at that lynch. If the wagon ever gained speed, it would also allow for easy transition.

for Hyl's request for replacement. So unexpected.

So what does the replacement mean? You comment on it so it much mean something.

sigh...

I don't have a reason in the world to vote zwetschenwasser.

But because any lynch is informant, I will switch my vote on Wednesday.

Remind me to do this because by then I will have forgotten.

Why wait?

[Iguana]

Out of the non-voters I would put money on YC. I had a slight town read on F13 that was perpetuated by zazie, my look at lurkers had me coming out with a town read on Grimmy.

For the others... well apart from HH I would be all for the lynch of the others.

[Iguana]

Not anti-town, its about the most informative lynch we can do.

@Spy - Compramise with a whoever replaced Hyl lynch?

[Iguana]

unvote
Vote Yankee

[Iguana]

I disagree with Michel about the Iguana thing, but he DID get me thinking more about who the Sk may be. But I have a question about that. Is it more helpful or hurtful to us to have the SK alive right now, as someone pointed out, the SK has to worry about the mafia just as much as we do, so, at what point in the game would it be more feasible to hunt for the SK, or do we lump in the SK with the mafia and look for them as a group?

Ummm... dead SK is better then alive SK. Presented with the option of guarenteed either lynch, I would take SK in a heartbeat, cuts it down to one kill a night (x-kill not guarenteed), and cop wont "clear" the SK.

@MS - If I had the option to go back to D1, I would lynch zwet again. He was anti-town, he was useless, he was scummy, he was a great D1 scum lynch, and excellent utility lynch.

@mod

- If a player with a night action needed replacing, what happens?

[Iguana]

He definately wasn't useless. Even without making much sense players can still be reasonable good scumhunters (see DGB)

What scumhunting did he do persay?

The only reason he was considered scummy is one of his remarks, interpreted incorrectly.

agree to disagree

I'm not entirely sure what you mean with great D1 scum lynch.

A lynch with high chance of it being on scum

How can an utility lynch (according to the wiki the waste of a day) ever be 'excellent'?

Utility lynch - A lynch that provides a decent chance of netting scum, while ridding the town of an anti-town (usually meta based) player. So even if the lynch was on town, its not horribly damaging. Most excellent.

[Iguana]

Secondly, what happened to Skitzer case made by Iguana at the beginning of the day? I actually liked that case, as Skitzer was giving me unexplained gut-scum feelings. It died under all those posts lately, and I feel, it should be brought back to attention.

I would be happy to lynch him still, but that wagon didnt seem to go anywhere.

[Iguana]

One, ZazieR is female. Two, don't discuss ongoings.

Three... zazie I lean town

[Iguana]

Ya know? I was looking through my posts to quote this in an attempt to push the skitzer lynch a bit again... but realized that my post never showed up

On the replacement issues: Hyl and foilists replacement requests were so unexpected that I felt the need to comment on them. Pomegranates is also surprising.

So? Do you think that them asking for a replacement is a scumtell in this situation? I see no point to bring this up if you dont see it as a tell.

I mentioned Nikanor's lurking because it is so contrary from his normal play. There is nothing wrong with that.

What conclusions are you drawing from this?

On the zwetschenwasser vote: I would have voted, but it wasn't really a well based lynch. So I set a deadline for myself in case something better came up by Wednesday.

You werent looking for anything better though. That is one of hte problems I really have had with you is that you just are playing a "me too" game following along with whatever wagon is big at the time as opposed to doing some scumhunting of your own.

unvote
vote skitzer

Im still not really liking SC/Zazie/F13 wagon a whole lot outside of information, and still am much against a WW wagon (or whoever he is now) because of my day one read on him. Skitzer or Hyl are my prefered lynches, 12kb is an acceptable one (possibly yabba too). Not overly keen on any other at this point though.

[Iguana]

unvote
vote saberwolf

Saber/hyl wagon go

[Iguana]

Well see you tomorrow.

My vote isnt moving.

If this game last past wednesday, somethings wrong.

[Iguana]

Note on saberwolf: I just modded a perilously long Picking Simplicity where players voted themselves quite often. I don't think they were ever scum. I'm not talented enough to know exactly why they did it, but from personal experience it

most definitely isn't a scumtell

.

That being said, to anyone who is voting saberwolf: Can you still justify your vote?

Its a small scumtell. However its also one of the "censurable tells" when done outside of RVS that if committed you should always lynch the player. Best case scenario, you lynch scum. Worst case scenario, you teach idiot-town a lesson, and hope they learn to not play as jackassedly in their next game. Other tells like these are claiming scum and lying about your role (however these are slightly less as there are exceedingly rare scenarios where they are a good move)

Also what spy said regarding Hyl.

Scum please go bus your partner or take the free lynch.

[Iguana]

kill kill kill kill
die die die

[Iguana]

Unvote

I just read his claim. I thought this was an open game though? Reading on...

It is, back to voting saber now please... only a few hours left before I lose faith in this game for not quicklynching him

[Iguana]

It was the right lynch. I dont care what he was, it was the right lynch.

[Iguana]

He is scum... maybe just not mafia

He is also policy lynch as far as I am concerned

[Iguana]

If you are its a good thing you got banned from joining games

[Iguana]

I see Toro is added to the replacement list. I would almost be fine lynching him today due to his insistance on the WW lynch to an extent where he never commented on anything else, mafia flip from him would not surprise me at all. Not quite sure its in the intrest of the town as a whole to lynch him today over just that. Needless to say WW(SCl) is still town given my read from day one.

Vote Yabba

To open the day though, a good spot to start the day

[Iguana]

Those aside:
Grimmy / Kreriov
POWER LURKERS (Toro, Blast, Hohum, Nik)

There's probably a scum in each of those pairings (if not two in the lurkers).

Actually I have Grimmy as town and lean Krei town.
The second group there I would be happy with a lynch of Toro, Nik and hohum, in that order. Would bet the game on those three lynches hitting at least one scum.

[Iguana]

Actually I have Grimmy as town and lean Krei town.
The second group there I would be happy with a lynch of Toro, Nik and hohum, in that order. Would bet the game on those three lynches hitting at least one scum.

Why on Grim and Krer?

Grimmy I have gone over. He looks really town to me so far in this game, even with hardly any content. I just cant really explain it good. Kre doesnt fit too well with anyone I think is scum, so I am going to bank on SOME of my scum reads being right making him town. However almost the entire wagon on him WAS town so I dunno as much since I thought it was mostly still living players when I wrote that.

Why does yabba take precedence (although I'm mightly concerned with that post being TODAY instead of information last night :tinfoil:) over a 1/3 shot at the worst for scum?

I think yabba is the best bet I can explain in an acceptable manner. If I could just open fire, I would pass him up for super gut Toro without question. Im going to go with what I can get done safely today, although if people are down for a Toro lynch im not even going to hesitate to go along.

Obviously the SCl lynch is still stupid. SCg should really move his vote.

Standard stuff says Shot-Scum Strangle-SK, not important either way though.

[Iguana]

Wheeeeeeeeee.

Weeeee need you to vote or make a case. I would suggest bussing Toro or Yabba.

[Iguana]

Yeah ive been slacking. Was hopinh to find a way to get Toro auto-lynched but cant put it in words im happy with.

I'm not sure what's up, but he's a bit antsy and overreactive to some things. It sounds borderline defensive, 87 + 92 for some examples of this. Either that, or he just has a poor sense of humor. Can't tell.

antsy is not scummy. overractive is not scummy. You also seem to say "or I could be wrong" flat out with this vote. Two false tells and the ability to take them back

Nik-123's vote has me on edge. I can't quite put a finger on it, but it feels... opportunistic perhaps? Intervening to say "I agree" feels strange.

Feeling out a wagon

Anybody have a good way of telling when zwet's play is just anti-town as opposed to scummy? I've never been able to decipher his gameplay after all this time.

and another

That said, I find it interesting how Nik's really screwing around this game, with an emote practically every first line he posts.

If he's scum, maybe he's just chilling out because he doesn't have to do any work, he just has to play us like a cheap fiddle. If he's town, maybe the party-like atmosphere (for a severe lack of a better word) of a large game is getting to his head, and he's phased out of it already.

I'm leaning towards the former, but I'm not gonna get impulsive and wagon. Impulsivity leads to tunnelvisioning, which leads to failure.

I can't quite put my finger on Blastinus either what makes him stick out, but in the meantime, I'll chill out for a sec.

More indecisiveness...

and I got to go for now. Im going to be busy for the next few weeks but I should be able to finish this by mid-week

[Iguana]

Going to side with SC the former and get on the SC the latter wagon.

unvote
vote StrangerCoug

I would still like to lynch Yabba, but I have run out of convincing time
I would still love to lynch Toro, but cant word that safely
I wouldnt be against a Nik lynch too much

@all non-voters - Vote in your next post or

die

give me a damn good reason not to

die

you know there is no second opiton, just vote.

[Iguana]

@Iguana:

I would still love to lynch Toro, but cant word that safely

What does this mean?

Even if I find my reasoning, I dont think I can swing it in time, and actually have a better chance of stopping any lynch from happening. Im convinced its the right lynch, but im also convinced its just not happening.

[Iguana]

Iguana starts it off pretty bad. Her first post of the day is all about how Toro (now me) is probably scum but then votes Yabba with no reasoning. I am hoping that I will find some traces of reasoning in day two but still some explanation would have been nice.

I am sure enough that Serial/WW is town almost to the point where I would fake an innocent on him in a closed game where I knew there wasnt a cop. Town reads from me are deadly accurate. This is a town read.

I would never vote him without a cop investiation on him, no lynch is better then that lynch.

@Iguana:

I would still love to lynch Toro, but cant word that safely

What does this mean?

Even if I find my reasoning, I dont think I can swing it in time, and actually have a better chance of stopping any lynch from happening. Im convinced its the right lynch, but im also convinced its just not happening.

The thing is, you never even

tried

. Not once. And now you are sheeping.

Mentally I tried but never pulled it off. Im starting to think I can articulate it, but it would pull people off the SCoug wagon, and I dont think enough people would post by deadline to make it a successful lynch. Assuming im alive, tomorrow I will put my reasoning first post since no doubt I will have time.

Iguana is lurking badly and needs to shape up. If she really does have a gut read on Torro/me she needs to actually do something about it. Her lack of a vote or anything is ridiculous considering how easily she voted Yabba and then Stranger. Her sheeping is scummy.

Gut is a real problem to explain for me, and attempts end up making me look stupid, or just distracting people. Yabba is a fine lynch, SCoug is a decent lynch. A game that is all leaders will never go anywhere, it takes a big enough person to admit that someone else has a better case and to agree with it.

Also I was sheeping yabba? As far as I can tell it was just SCoug, and Saber but he was a dick and deserved the site ban he got.

[Iguana]

Is that a VT claim?

[Iguana]

Why? If its a cop claim its going to be impossible for us to move a wagon if you keep waiting.

[Iguana]

If you consider asking for a claim fishing, then yes I was fishing. You needed to claim. If you claimed cop we needed to move the wagon. If you were cop and didnt claim untill you got to L-1, we would have a no lynch (time constraints) and a dead cop.

[Iguana]

You were not asking me to claim. You were asking me if I made a specific claim. There is a difference. If I'm that scummy, another vote for me will come sometime today over the weekend. I'll claim then, if not sometime Sunday.

We are playing a open game. Cop is the only role you claim that would not result in your lynch. So asking "are you the cop?" is the equivilant of "did you claim?"

[Iguana]

So thats a VT claim though right?

You have to realize that if you are the cop and dont claim untill deadline, there is no chance of us being able to get a lynch. There also appears to be no chance of the wagon on you moving, so you are just delaying the inevitable at this point.

[Iguana]

unvote
vote amished

Go go gadget quicklynch

[Iguana]

unvote
vote amished

Go go gadget quicklynch

You've now put the leading wagon one step back one day out from deadline. You need to have a POWERHOUSE reason for that wagon swap, the way I see it.

Ive come to the sudden realization that SCoug is town. There is a whole lot of information to be gained from a pom/amish lynch too.

If everyone just posts "vote amish" in their next post a lynch will still happen.

[Iguana]

Ive come to the sudden realization that SCoug is town. There is a whole lot of information to be gained from a pom/amish lynch too.

Elaborate. More.

Kay

Folist was neutral. Zazie looked really town. ive elaborated on the zazie read before. Go iso me.

SC claimed VT. There is zero reason for the SK to claim VT as they dont benifit partners if they die. There is little reason for scum to claim VT as they will likely be lynched and the cop stays hidden. While there are scenarios (like SC is getting bussed hard) where getting lynched is a slight benifit to scum, I dont think this is one of them. It was almost deadline so it basically assured him to be a lynch as well. I would put it at about 80% chance SC is town here. We need to move the wagon now.

If everyone just posts "vote amish" in their next post a lynch will still happen.

A gutsy tactic that probably will fail. Or it could be scum sabotage.

Bus your partner. You need to town points.

/second Yabba's elaborate on SCoug is town

@Iguana: Are you just gonna relegate my lynch to information only; or are you actually gonna say something about me maybe even being scum?

Yeah im not going to elaborate a whole lot. If I was just gunning down the list, you are no doubt in the top five playing no reveal. Very informative though.

@SCoug - Lets lynch Amigranate instead. This goes for whoever else it was that was voting him.

[Iguana]

Im still not really liking SC/Zazie/F13 wagon a whole lot outside of information, and still am much against a WW wagon (or whoever he is now) because of my day one read on him. Skitzer or Hyl are my prefered lynches, 12kb is an acceptable one (possibly yabba too). Not overly keen on any other at this point though.

Hmm, 12kb is an acceptable lynch. Nevermind, you're not consistent, and I doubt that you even really know what the heck you're saying anymore to try to look town.

Uhhh... I dont think I called anyone who has taken over the 12kb point super town. You have taken over the f13 spot. They are both numbers, will give you that much, but the numbers are different. I would still be happy enough with a kre (12kbs current body) lynch.

Heck, 12kb is even in your top 3 with Hyl and Skitzer (what happened to those suspicions? That's right, you voted Saber and relegated that to a "good" lynch that hit town for information. What information did you actually glean from that (or the Zwet) lynch? That they're town? Congratulations!

Well... 12kb is in my top 5 still (goes toro, yabba, you/kre, CC). Hyl is dead. Skitzer I have mellowed a bit on, people made good arguements that he is town.

Also we learned that they are town AND future policy lynches.

[Iguana]

@KoC - Just iso read folliest/zazie/SCoug and then pom/amish and vote who whoever is more suspicious.