Open 175 - Picking Simplicity (Game Over)

[Scott Brosius]

Toro, zwet, dram, and WW are poor contributors to this game in general out of all the people actively posting. Not a fan of that.

Its too bad WW is town given his contribution level, but he is town. I would take lurky town over active unknown in an endgame.

Iguana, don't tell scum what you'd do with any night actions you may or may not have. Also, don't respond to this.

Purple monkey dishwasher, climbing a tree.

Also it really doesnt matter. If I can scare scum by looking town, hunting AND acting like im a PR about to bust them or give them second thoughts about who to kill, I will absorb a kill.

I don't think your last sentence is scummy, but you basically soft-claimed VT here. It's anti-town to do that since mafia will probably seek out the power roles.

[Toro]

only when he has said stupid idiotic things though, if i had just said, "zwet is an idiot' then yes it would be out of place

But you did WarWound, in your 285 you called him an imbecile.

[yabbaguy]

@Toro: Who's on your suspect list right now?

Also... I'd like you to explain your rationale for why your posts have one line or one argument in them in a game where there are a slew of posts going at 100 MPH which bringing up multiple points and engage in nuanced debates. Where the hell are you?

@zwet: Same questions.

[semioldguy]

Vote Count 5:

With 20 alive, it takes 11 to lynch.

12keyblade

(6) – Hyl, Flava Flave, Iguana, WarWound, Blastinus, foilist13

Nikanor

(2) – 12keyblade, Pomegranate

Blastinus

(1) – Scott Brosius

zwetschenwasser

(1) – Head_Honcho

Dramonic

(1) – SpyreX

Iguana

(1) – Dramonic

Pomegranate

(1) – Col.Cathart

Not Voting (7) –

zwetschenwasser, Toro, Grimmy, YankCane151, yabbaguy, Nikanor, skitzer

Notes:

* Replacing: 12Keyblade and foilist13.
* Deadline for the end of Day One is on Thursday, November 5 at 2:00pm PST (Pacific Standard Time)

[Head_Honcho]

Yabba, why so quick to defend Zwet? Why so quick to label me scummy for pushing him for (active) lurking?

[Flava Flave]

In other news: I have a weird feeling, that several people are hopping KB's wagon, because it's an easiest wagon around. Ok, fine, he didn't post anything useful at all, but also he didn't post ANYTHING in like... Week? Meanwhile, when there are other things to discuss, some people, like Blastinus or Foilist are just saying 'Yeah, KB is not saying anything, let's lynch him'. KB doesn't look like a lurker IMO. He looks like a main candidate for a replacement.

When I voted, lurking wasn't even a point against him. Lurking isn't a towntell and neither is flaking. If he is replaced, it's no reason for me to move my vote.

Flav: what is your case vs key and Pom?

Someone (Nik, I believe?) mentioned voting the last player to reach 10 posts. As soon as that came up, guess who was posting for the sake of posting and adding nothing. Keyblade. Also his waiting for the RVS to end thing.

Pom was posting without opinions a bit, so I asked for some opinions. Guess what I got from Pom. Several town reads and an easy vote.

and now that key is up for replacement, is it still valid?

Nah, being replaced means he was never here to do anything scummy.

(For the sense of humor impaired, the above is a "yes" answer to Grimmy's question, but with a not-so-subtle touch of sarcasm.

Flave-253 is basically playing The Lightining Round. Today's question: how many scummy cases and random questions can be thrown out there in the span of five minutes?

Not sure how to take that alignment-wise. It may just be null laziness, but that doesn't make me happy either way.

Actively questioning is lazy?

@Flave-regarding your question: Your vote was in very abrupt nature, relying on very RVS tells, possibly just going after people as fast as possible. The fact that your current mentality seems to be just lashing out at random people with single lines of evidence doesn't sit well with me.

I don't see anything abrupt about my vote. No, I wasn't relying on "RVS tells". I was "relying" on tells that I saw that happened to be early in the game. There was nothing random or jokey about my vote though.

Er..wait. You meant my Honcho vote, didn't you? Yeah, that was a reaction-seeking vote. I find them very useful early in the game.

Kill the scum or kill the WIFOM. Both say kill the lizard.

Question: If Iguana is town, she is using WIFOM to disguise whether she is vanilla or a power role. How does that hurt town more than scum. Looks to me like she is using WIFOM against scum, which isn't exactly scummy.

Hell, I just played a game with Yabba where he was killed N1 because scum thought he was the seer. Note that this was after the actual seer had claimed. Ok, so Yabba didn't draw the kill intentionally, but if he could have, it would have been great town play. Alternatively, if Yabba had been the actual seer in this game, and had done the exact same thing, maybe scum would "catch on", thinking he's a vanilla, and keep him alive. Either way, it would be genius play.

Basically, Dramonic, Iguana hasn't done anything wrong.

Somehow this makes me see Yabbaguy as slightly town, just because I don't see mafia pointing out something so pointless; but it could just be the way I see it.

Ok, so. Yabba makes what you see as a bad attack. So this is a towntell in your opinion? Because scum wouldn't point out something "pointless"? Why not? You lost me on this one.

I'm not generally a fan of Wifom, as it usually confuses the town, which is something the mafia want to do.

If you're town, why are you getting confused over whether Iguana is a vanilla or a power role? If you're town, you shouldn't care. If you're town, all that matters is the alignment of others, not the role.

[dramonic]

buddying much?

[skitzer]

We haven't heard from Nikanor lately. This is very strange.

[zwetschenwasser]

@Toro: Who's on your suspect list right now?

Also... I'd like you to explain your rationale for why your posts have one line or one argument in them in a game where there are a slew of posts going at 100 MPH which bringing up multiple points and engage in nuanced debates. Where the hell are you?

@zwet: Same questions.

I'm doing college applications, good sir. However, I think warwound is scum atm.

[Pomegranate]

Somehow this makes me see Yabbaguy as slightly town, just because I don't see mafia pointing out something so pointless; but it could just be the way I see it.

Ok, so. Yabba makes what you see as a bad attack. So this is a towntell in your opinion? Because scum wouldn't point out something "pointless"? Why not? You lost me on this one.

Scum don't generally want to say things that can be seen as stupid; I see town as more likely to point it out as they are usually focusing on details. The town are the ones who care about finding scum; scum would rather just coast.

I'm not generally a fan of Wifom, as it usually confuses the town, which is something the mafia want to do.

If you're town, why are you getting confused over whether Iguana is a vanilla or a power role? If you're town, you shouldn't care. If you're town, all that matters is the alignment of others, not the role.

Is there any reason scum couldn't use Wifom the way Iguana did?

[dramonic]

Yes, to provide themselves with a reason why they aren't dying overnight.

[yabbaguy]

@Honcho-329: First off, more to everyone, I miss questions sometimes. That's a habitual weakness of mine, and I usually catch it the second time if you remind me.

Secondly, the word scummy was neither said nor implied in the post in question. I'm in another game (ongoing at present) where we've had two lynches take place on apparent VIs, and I'm certain they were scum-driven. That's why I immediately got wary of you, who's been around longer than zwet, accused him over something that's just in his meta.

If he's scum, I'm waiting for a real tell.

@Flave-330: Most of the questions or statements, to me, were based on mere parts of quotes, and really have no thought or reason to them. That's not the sort of "active questioning" I had in mind.

@zwet-333: And why?

[Iguana]

People should not speculate on what I am

I still am interested to hear cases from about half the game.

To be more specific, I would love to hear a case from Scott, HH, Spy, CC, and everyone not voting.

[SpyreX]

I'm getting on it. Believe you me. However, pulling a stunt referencing you being or not being a PR and then going "NOTHING TO SEE HERE" just isn't going to fly.

[Nikanor]

Sorry folks, I'm catching up.

[Nikanor]

I'll have to investigate the Nik-Blastinus love connection later.

Oh great, you just outed the lovers. (What do you mean, there are no lovers in this game?)

I don't see how Iguana's WIFOM is scummy. Then again, I'm the guy who lies about his role as town and then expects the rest of the town to eat the WIFOM I feed them when I tell them I was fakeclaiming.

I was going to say that Pom was scummy for being non-committal in her wording before I realised she was thirteen (non-committal wording is fairly common in younger players, since they often lack confidence).

I think dramonic is town, but at the same time I find his attacks against Iguana unfair.

Also... I'd like you to explain your rationale for why your posts have one line or one argument in them in a game where there are a slew of posts going at 100 MPH which bringing up multiple points and engage in nuanced debates. Where the hell are you?

He's Toro. It fits his meta.

We haven't heard from Nikanor lately. This is very strange.

Yeah, I know. I'm busy with life, is all.

Is there any reason scum couldn't use Wifom the way Iguana did?

Is there any reason town couldn't use Wifom the way Iguana did?

[Hyl]

I was going to say that Pom was scummy for being non-committal in her wording before I realised she was thirteen (non-committal wording is fairly common in younger players, since they often lack confidence).

No. When I was thirteen, I had an easy time being committal in my stances. And we don't even know if Pom is lying about her age. (She's a woman, after all. )

Scum don't generally want to say things that can be seen as stupid; I see town as more likely to point it out as they are usually focusing on details. The town are the ones who care about finding scum; scum would rather just coast.

Townies unusually focus on details sometimes, yes, but scum are more likely to

fabricate

details, or spew out as much as they can to lynch a target. In the case of Yabba I doubt, as scum, he made that comment with the intention of painting you scummy. Therefore his comment is more of a null-tell for me.

For those not following, we are referring to where Yabba called out Pom for her weird diction ("I'm not liking Nikanor").
---
My current suspicions: (Note: Neutral players either haven't given me any read or aren't townie enough to list them as Town; MotR are both townie and scummy)

Town:
-

Honcho
-Blastinus
-Yabba
-Iguana
-Flava

Neutral:
-

Skitzer
-SpyreX
-Scott
-Grimmy

Middle of the Road:
-

Pomegranate

; I would have put her in scum if it weren't for her vote on Nikanor. Granted, it wasn't wholly original since 1) Basically everyone pointed out Nikanor's buddying, and 2) I had pointed out Nik's screwy logic concerning his vote on Blastinus. So Pom is more leaning scum because of her odd excuse for lurking and her sweeping town reads.
-

Nikanor

; Skitzer said that your reason to unvote Blastinus goes against logical sense. Do you disagree, and why? And who are your top suspects since you've unvoted Blastinus?
-

Zwet

; Give some substance please.
-

Col

-

Toro

; Several posts, nothing substantial. Who are your top suspects and why?

Scum:
-

Foilist

; I didn't like the vote on Keyblade. Even though Iguana provided some reasoning, it seemed like an opportunistic jump from "He's not the only one lurking!" to "Vote: Keyblade, and his wagon is only getting bigger".
-

Dramonic

; The "buddying much?" in #331 is largely what landed him here. For one it's a bit of a stretch; additionally, it forms the basis for an ad hominem attack. Conveniently the person he accuses of buddying is Flave, a former suspect of his, so I wouldn't be surprised if he lumps them together as scum.
-

Keyblade

I-forgot-he-was-in-the-game-until-I-looked-at-the-player-list:
-

YankCane

[Grimmy]

I'm getting on it. Believe you me. However, pulling a stunt referencing you being or not being a PR and then going "NOTHING TO SEE HERE" just isn't going to fly.

This type of play from iguana also bothers me. it could either be a legit attempt at getting scum to target him, or it could be a scum attempt at
(using an analogy here)
Standing right in front of the spotlight, but since its so bright, you cant make out who it is.

right now, its is slightly more suspicious to me than it would have been if this was later in the game.

I think Iguana jumped the gun on this gambit, so I will point the dreaded (/sarcasm)

FOS: Iguana

and will put iguana in the "keep an eye on this one" file.

Grimmy

Personal note:
I am unavailable on weekends, so I will not be posting then. And a future heads up is that I wont be online from thrusday-sunday for the thanksgiving weekend. I play this game at work, so my schedule is generally M-F, 9-5 est.

[Col.Cathart]

People should not speculate on what I am

I still am interested to hear cases from about half the game.

To be more specific, I would love to hear a case from Scott, HH, Spy, CC, and everyone not voting.

I'm going to a party in a minute, so I don't have a time right now. Expect all my thoughts about this game so far, tomorrow after I'll sober up.

[Flava Flave]

Scum don't generally want to say things that can be seen as stupid; I see town as more likely to point it out as they are usually focusing on details. The town are the ones who care about finding scum; scum would rather just coast.

Really? Because if I ever had to "coast" as scum, I'd feel pretty crippled.

Well. Considering that you think scum should coast, and that's basically what you are doing, my opinion of your play isn't getting any better.

Is there any reason scum couldn't use Wifom the way Iguana did?

Why would they?

Yes, to provide themselves with a reason why they aren't dying overnight.

That's dumb.

@Flave-330: Most of the questions or statements, to me, were based on mere parts of quotes, and really have no thought or reason to them. That's not the sort of "active questioning" I had in mind.

So you don't like my playstyle. k.

[semioldguy]

ZazieR has offered to replace in if someone would like to cross replace for him. I would do it myself, but I am not currently eligible to replace into any of the games requested. Let me know if you'd be willing to cross replace.

[SpyreX]

Ohh hay I've finally got a vote to lay down.

Vote: Hyl

I find Iguana's play pro-town because it helps catch scum, not because 'scum wouldn't behave that way'. They would.

How? How does that "help catch scum". But, that has nothing on:

Townies unusually focus on details sometimes, yes, but scum are more likely to fabricate details, or spew out as much as they can to lynch a target. In the case of Yabba I doubt, as scum, he made that comment with the intention of painting you scummy. Therefore his comment is more of a null-tell for me.

For those not following, we are referring to where Yabba called out Pom for her weird diction ("I'm not liking Nikanor").
---
My current suspicions: (Note: Neutral players either haven't given me any read or aren't townie enough to list them as Town; MotR are both townie and scummy)

Town:
-Honcho
-Blastinus
-Yabba
-Iguana
-Flava

Neutral:
-Skitzer
-SpyreX
-Scott
-Grimmy

Middle of the Road:
-Pomegranate; I would have put her in scum if it weren't for her vote on Nikanor. Granted, it wasn't wholly original since 1) Basically everyone pointed out Nikanor's buddying, and 2) I had pointed out Nik's screwy logic concerning his vote on Blastinus. So Pom is more leaning scum because of her odd excuse for lurking and her sweeping town reads.
-Nikanor; Skitzer said that your reason to unvote Blastinus goes against logical sense. Do you disagree, and why? And who are your top suspects since you've unvoted Blastinus?
-Zwet; Give some substance please.
-Col
-Toro; Several posts, nothing substantial. Who are your top suspects and why?

Scum:
-Foilist; I didn't like the vote on Keyblade. Even though Iguana provided some reasoning, it seemed like an opportunistic jump from "He's not the only one lurking!" to "Vote: Keyblade, and his wagon is only getting bigger".
-Dramonic; The "buddying much?" in #331 is largely what landed him here. For one it's a bit of a stretch; additionally, it forms the basis for an ad hominem attack. Conveniently the person he accuses of buddying is Flave, a former suspect of his, so I wouldn't be surprised if he lumps them together as scum.
-Keyblade

I-forgot-he-was-in-the-game-until-I-looked-at-the-player-list:
-YankCane

So, we have Town, Neutral, Middle of the Road (I.E. Neutral), Scum and ONE lurker.

Now, that alone isn't enough to really catch my eye - although separating neutral from "middle of the road" really seems like a what in the hell manuever but...

There is no rationale given for "town" in said post. Nor for Neutral (although Middle of the Road does except for Col which is :bonk:)

That in and of itself STILL isn't enough. Its the "scum" group that does it.

Foil is scum for voting Keyblade. (again another props to Iguana here) however, Keyblade, the person Hyl is currently voting, has no rationale given.

So, well, maybe these are left off because they're mentioned earlier and there's no need to actually re-iterate. Hmm.

Nope.

[Hyl]

So, well, maybe these are left off because they're mentioned earlier and there's no need to actually re-iterate. Hmm.

Uh, like 2 posts ago I stated exactly why I was voting for Keyblade.

How? How does that "help catch scum".

Asking questions, probing players, encouraging discussion, generally scumhunting helps catch scum.

There is no rationale given for "town" in said post. Nor for Neutral (although Middle of the Road does except for Col which is :bonk:)

The players I listed as town are active, sensible, scum-hunters, or 1-2 of the 3. That's generally what defines pro-town play so I didn't think an explanation was necessary. And I clearly stated the rationale for "neutral"--those players haven't given me much of a read from their posts. Therefore there is no rationale to list.

Now, that alone isn't enough to really catch my eye - although separating neutral from "middle of the road" really seems like a what in the hell manuever but...

Uhm...ok? Players with both questionable and pro-town posts fall in MotR. Players with no strong indication in their posts whatsoever fall in Neutral. What's so odd about that?

Note that I didn't say Yank was the only lurker, I said he just isn't here.

[Pomegranate]

Is there any reason scum couldn't use Wifom the way Iguana did?

Is there any reason town couldn't use Wifom the way Iguana did?

Is there any reason scum couldn't use Wifom the way Iguana did?

Why would they?

Scum want mislynches. Wifom confuses town, or in this case convinces some/many players that he is town. Why wouldn't scum want that? I see town as less likely to use Wifom because it confuses the town. Bear in mind that I didn't say that town

don't

use Wifom, just are less likely IMO.

[yabbaguy]

@Flave-330:

So you don't like my playstyle. k.

I didn't say I *didn't like you*, I said that I think you're *scummy* for this. The difference has been established.

@SpyreX-346: I'm gonna side with Hyl on this one, I think there are certain aspects and logic to his scumlist that I think you're merely misunderstanding. One example, can dislike someone's vote even if it's on supposed scum because perhaps the vote was a half-assed scum-distancing vote, referencing the 12KB one.

@Hyl: The only person wildly out of place on your list, to me, is Flave. Why town? Do you think I'm going down the wrong road?