Open 175 - Picking Simplicity (Game Over)

[yabbaguy]

I think saber's town.

And what is this rubbish about this avoiding being called out as a lurker stuff? This sounds highly convoluted, and if somebody's merely looking for lurker lynches anyway, they've got problems.

Kreriov tilts scummy.

[Kreriov]

Did you read last two pages? Let see, CC says he would be ok lynching any lurkers. THE VERY NEXT POST Sabrewolf suddenly says he has been lurking! Then, after a bunch of weird posts including one in which he votes himself, Sabrewolf suddenly says it was all a gambit. Oh yeah, did I mention his actions suddenly became a gambit right after SERIAL posits it might all be a gambit? I guess your rubbish is merely my reading the thread. I am certainly not voting Sabrewolf for lurking! I am voting him for his scummy actions.

[Grimmy]

Question and a Vote

Spyrex (and anyone else who wishes to answer): How does one get a SK read on anyone? My problem with SK is that they read no differently to me than a regular townie.

And of course...

The idiotic gambit of Sabrewolf. This cries out to me as a "they are on to me, so let me do something to try to throw them off my trail" sort of move. I think it was done to not only get the people who voted after he did it to unvote quickly, but to also try to discredit the other votes/leads on him from BEFORE he did this.

As such, I think we got one.

Vote: Sabrewolf

Grimmy

[Grimmy]

Can someone please update this to register that I have now put him at L-1, and that the next vote will seal the deal?

and im halfway to thinking that Sabrewolf will vote himself again, just because.

Grimmy

[skitzer]

Note on saberwolf: I just modded a perilously long Picking Simplicity where players voted themselves quite often. I don't think they were ever scum. I'm not talented enough to know exactly why they did it, but from personal experience it

most definitely isn't a scumtell

.

That being said, to anyone who is voting saberwolf: Can you still justify your vote?

[MichelSableheart]

How does one get a SK read on anyone? My problem with SK is that they read no differently to me than a regular townie.

Personally, I have an SK read on Iguana, because dramonic (who was tunneling on Iguana extensively) was nightkilled by the SK.

That being said, to anyone who is voting saberwolf: Can you still justify your vote?

As said before, his selfvote/slip is null to me. However, post #134 by Hyl is extremely suspect to me. Besides that, it's also his interaction with other players who have been pushing the zwetwagon early that makes me suspicious of him. Out of the players I suspect of being scum, he is by far the most supported bandwagon.

[Kreriov]

Easily. Especially given that way Sabre did so. If I do the following, does it mean I am definitely not scum?

Unvote: Sabrewolf

Vote: Kreriov

Unvote: Kreriov

Vote: Sabrewolf

Voting yourself is not a scum tell or a town tell.

I am not sure the exact circumstances, but I would suspect that in the one you modded, the reasons or circumstances under which people voted themselves were substantially different. I would find it surprising if, in that other game, it was this far into D2 and someone who was essentially under no suspicion with no or few votes suddenly up and declared themselves a lurker then voted themselves. The point is that you cannot arbitrarily define that particular action as town or not town. Heck, if we all decided that voting for yourself means you have to be town, every single person in this game would be casting a vote on themselves in their very next post!

[yabbaguy]

I need to re-sig this.

[skitzer]

I understand that some votes are not based on the selfvote, so that's not what I'm going for. I meant people who voted simply because of the vote.

Kreriov: I'm not saying selfvoting doesn't make you scum. I'm saying selfvoting doesn't make you anymore scummy.

[Iguana]

Note on saberwolf: I just modded a perilously long Picking Simplicity where players voted themselves quite often. I don't think they were ever scum. I'm not talented enough to know exactly why they did it, but from personal experience it

most definitely isn't a scumtell

.

That being said, to anyone who is voting saberwolf: Can you still justify your vote?

Its a small scumtell. However its also one of the "censurable tells" when done outside of RVS that if committed you should always lynch the player. Best case scenario, you lynch scum. Worst case scenario, you teach idiot-town a lesson, and hope they learn to not play as jackassedly in their next game. Other tells like these are claiming scum and lying about your role (however these are slightly less as there are exceedingly rare scenarios where they are a good move)

Also what spy said regarding Hyl.

Scum please go bus your partner or take the free lynch.

[semioldguy]

Vote Count 16:

With 17 alive, it takes 9 to lynch.

saberwolf

(8) – Nikanor, Iguana, Col.Cathart, SpyreX, MichelSableheart, StrangerCoug, Kreriov, Grimmy

hohum

(1) – Head_Honcho

SerialClergyman

(1) – Toro

SpyreX

(1) – saberwolf

Kreriov

(1) – Flava Flave

StrangerCoug

(1) – SerialClergyman

Not Voting (4) –

Blastinus, skitzer, yabbaguy, hohum

Notes:

* Searching for replacement for Blastinus.
* Deadline for the end of Day Two is on Thursday, December 10 at 2:00pm PST (Pacific Standard Time)

[skitzer]

But what if your supposed "idiot-town" is the smart one here?

saberwolf's self-vote has reenergized the game and potentially brought out a lot of bandwagoning scum.

[SerialClergyman]

No more praise of the self vote please. It's an act that does little more than muddy the waters, and the more people who do it as town, the more it will be a legitimate tactic for scum to use later. I could have energized the game by claiming scum or sk, but it wouldn't get us any closer to winning. For me, looking at the wagon and those who swooped in to vote, this comes down to policy voting for bad play or not voting town. Last time I chose the latter and this time I will too, but for gods sake let's hear no more about the up side of self voting please.

[SpyreX]

BUT IT CAUGHT EIGHT SCUM!

Its not JUST policy though - the timing of it is pretty shenanigans.

---

As for Grimmy's question: The focus on the SK that didn't end in the vote for the SK was what got my guns a blazing. Especially with the bizarro logic stuff.

[Col.Cathart]

But what if your supposed "idiot-town" is the smart one here?

saberwolf's self-vote has reenergized the game and potentially brought out a lot of bandwagoning scum.

And your point is?

His self-vote did spark discussion, but for Christ sake, this isn't a towntell.

As for my current point of view, I still like that lynch. I wasn't entirely buying MSH's logic against Hyl, but there Saberwolf came with his lurking bullshit. And then it all went even more downhill from there. Actually his self-vote is probably the thing I have the least problems with.

[StrangerCoug]

FoS: skitzer

. I don't care if the people in your game self-voted a lot as town, it's not a smart move to do. Stop defending saberwolf as a VI.

[yabbaguy]

However, let's at least realize that while a novelty for sure in games in general, it's by no means new tactics for saberwolf. He gambits a lot, he's hated by some for it, but of course, he's not always scum doing it.

Bunch of meta WIFOM. I therefore opt to discard this particular shenanigan as null. Of course, he's on igg-mi-oi status now, but for now, I'm not persuaded.

[saberwolf]

Oh well, it's ok, I'll claim now.

I'm the

Back-Up Doctor

As soon as doctor was killed I took over as doc. Now I get to be NKed, even if you don't lynch me. Yay

So what say you now?

[Iguana]

kill kill kill kill
die die die

[saberwolf]

voting saberwolf: Can you still justify your vote?[/b]

Its a small scumtell. However its also one of the "censurable tells" when done outside of RVS that if committed you should always lynch the player. Best case scenario, you lynch scum. Worst case scenario, you teach idiot-town a lesson, and hope they learn to not play as jackassedly in their next game. [/quote]

obv hasnt done me any good. I get lynched all the time and have not once considered changing my playstyle.

Oh, and I'm not allowed to selfhammer. Mith's already been on my back for that before

[SerialClergyman]

Its a small scumtell. However its also one of the "censurable tells" when done outside of RVS that if committed you should always lynch the player. Best case scenario, you lynch scum. Worst case scenario, you teach idiot-town a lesson, and hope they learn to not play as jackassedly in their next game. Other tells like these are claiming scum and lying about your role (however these are slightly less as there are exceedingly rare scenarios where they are a good move)

Also what spy said regarding Hyl.

Voting yourself is not a scum tell or a town tell.

Behaviour like saberwolf on the last page is null to me. It's a lot of WIFOM that can be done by both town and scum. It is mainly bad for the player who uses it, regardless of alignement.

That being said, one of my four scum candidates just became the leading wagon.

And of course...

The idiotic gambit of Sabrewolf. This cries out to me as a "they are on to me, so let me do something to try to throw them off my trail" sort of move. I think it was done to not only get the people who voted after he did it to unvote quickly, but to also try to discredit the other votes/leads on him from BEFORE he did this.

As such, I think we got one.

Personally, it really seems to me like Sabre was lurking scum who had to make a big splash before he was really called out for it. I mean really. In the immediately prior post CC says he would support lynching any lurkers and suddenly Sabre admits he has been lurking? Then he realized he did something stupid and finally tries to cover for it by saying he was trying to catch scum in his 'usual' non-traditional manner? Sabre screams scum to me.

Vote: Sabrewolf

Jesus Christ, saberwolf, you say you're playing to win and you self-vote? Are you suicidal?

... did he just scumclaim and vote himself?

Unvote, Vote: Saber

saberwolf wrote:
yes, I am.

oh, did scum just make the game too easy for you? My bad

Ugh.

Unvote

vote: Saberwolf

Nikanor was already voting him.
Iguana voted before the self-vote.


All this is one of the many reasons self-votes suck. It's so hard to analyse these positions and work out whose vote is disengenuous.

Aside from my point about Spyrex (which I've gone off somewhat, at least partially because i do remember his stanceo n SKs from another game), Kreirov stands out to me. His argument seems to be that sabrewolf used my explanation to dig him out of a hole. That seems to suggest that saber didn't realise his actions were a gambit and did his little self-vote scumclaim dance... for what? For funsies? Because he cracked under the pressure?

Kreirov also assumes that saber's reaction to being called out as a lurker 'yes, I've totally been lurking' was a scumslip, and he then attempted to address this scumslip with the self-vote.

[saberwolf]

hmmm...that was not what I quoted :S

oh well.

[saberwolf]

grimmy, spyreX and possibly Kerikov stand out as scum to me.

Just a thought for later when I die.

[saberwolf]

BTW: I'm just gonna beat anybody who is too dumb to the punch: I fakeclaimed.

[SerialClergyman]

FoS: skitzer. I don't care if the people in your game self-voted a lot as town, it's not a smart move to do. Stop defending saberwolf as a VI.

Skitzer remains town, SCoug remains scum.

Note all of what I've written (and even this point to a degree) are dependent on a saber townflip.