Mini 792 - Tofu Mafia. Game over!

[Adel]

/confirm

{insert witty pregame banter here}

[Adel]

vote: SpyreX

Dance for me poppet!

[Adel]

Your re-written quote is cute, I must admit. The difference of course is that I didn't make such an opinion out of the blue in the RVS stage. Had you been Spyrex altering that quote, I would label it OMGUS. I guess you are OMGUS by proxy

either that, or it is page 1 chainsaw defense.

[Adel]

could all players please answer the following questions:

1. what games (with links) have you finished in the last 6 months?
2. what are your on-going games?
3. what is your personal definition of lurking?
4. of the players in this game, which players have you played with in the last six months?
5. what other names do you play mafia under here?
6. what other sites have you played at within the last six months?

[Adel]

Quite a few questions Adel, what is the town supposed to get out of it other than indulging your own curiosity (or maybe you are building umpteen info status charts).

a better informed Adel.

Are we supposed to get short term benefits for the questions (I do fail to see the point). If not, do we need to wait before you give a summary with conclusions?

wait for it. there will be a reveal.

Do you think it distracts from the current building bandwagons?

says the person that unvoted SpyreX .

Could this have waited until later?

metas take time to build, and there are 11 living players in this game besides me.

It seems more like a technique for when the game slows down, so I dont see that reasoning. If it was simply to stir discussion, without any other real reason behind it, don't you think it is actually a distraction for the current thread?

less of a distraction than these absurd questions, obviously. Again, metas take time to build.

Judgement call good or bad? Distracting from a Porkens wagon that seems to be building would be what I consider poor play (save it till later when things stall). I know you like to have at least 2 competing bandwagons, but how is that going to accomplish it?

you'll have to wait for the reveal just like everyone else.

[Adel]

the point behind question 3 (what is your personal definition of lurking) is to build a consensus opinion of what lurking is now, when everyone is clearly present.

I'll answer my questions last.

Those players who have been uncooperative and incomplete so far (

*ahem*

tajo), please consider revising your previous answer to make a more complete response. Thank you.

[Adel]

I hate the nonsense stage almost as much as the random stage.

Tajo: pull your stick out and reread your posts. You aren't unique in your lack of diligence in your answer, but I am extra disappointed in you

I'm pissed because this lack of cooperation means that I'll have to do all of the work myself, instead of just quality assurance checks, meanwhile the rest of you can continue your social bullshit sessions.

[Adel]

Voting first and giving reasons later is

bad

. It looked to me like you were trying to be witty in agreeing with/piggybacking on a vote that had no reasoning behind it.

Not true, especially early in a day 1. There are numerous non-scummy reasons to place a vote without explicit reasoning.

[Adel]

1. what games (with links) have you finished in the last 6 months? I

have played tons of games in the last 6 months. Link them would be a pain in the ass. From the top of my head. All WIH, Family Guy, Past ages, Drawn together, Insane Assylum, etc

5. what other names do you play mafia under here?

I have some alts, try to guess them.

here you go. "top of your head" (along with other answers like "most of them are on my wiki" that other players gave) is the kind of answer that dodges responsibility for omissions. It also means that I've wasted my time with you, since I'll have to do all of the work myself.

Identification of your alts help me lynch you if you are scum, and establish your innocence if you are town. To not reveal your alts in this gave runs counter to the townie win-condition in this game.

[Adel]

I don't feel like wasting more time arguing this with you tajo. I'll just do it myself.

[Adel]

If you really want to stalk everyone, you can use the Search function to find the topics someone's posted in (conveniently giving you a list!) within about forty seconds.

Vi may be an apt name for you after all..

[Adel]

I would like you to answer all your questions also.

I'll answer my questions last.

reading is teh win

[Adel]

Did you honestly think that I was unaware of the search function?

[Adel]

tajo, post a complete game list.

[Adel]

Anyhow, thanks for listening. I hope it helps to explain some of my oddness.

Which posts in this game contain the oddness you hope to explain? I'll looking for an answer that includes post numbers.

[Adel]

mod: please prod Elmo

did anyone else notice that he made a post on the site recently, just not in this game?

Who thinks he is lurking?

[Adel]

could all players please answer the following questions:

1. what games (with links) have you finished in the last 6 months?
2. what are your on-going games?
3. what is your personal definition of lurking?
4. of the players in this game, which players have you played with in the last six months?
5. what other names do you play mafia under here?
6. what other sites have you played at within the last six months?

in chronological order:

I REFUSE TO BE A PART OF THIS SUREFIRE ATTEMPT TO SUCKLE ALL THE INFORMATION NECESSARY TO SUBJUGATE US WITH YOUR DARKNESS

Or.

1.)
Open 122: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 26&start=0
Mini 741: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 61&start=0
Mini 702: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... start=1250
Mini 758: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=475
Mini 739: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=875
Mini 712: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=725
Newbie 723: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=250
You can also check my wiki if there is others I've missed. I haven't updated it in a while, but.

2.)
Mini 706 (dead): http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 54&start=0
Wheel of Time Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... start=1300
Lynch All Lurkers Mafia (dead): http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 46&start=0
Street Fighter 4 Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 48&start=0

3.) There's two kinds of lurking that worry me. The simple "I can't remember you are in the game" litmus test for actually not playing the game (that once is realized normally becomes "You have to get lynched because you are lurking so badly I can't remember you are in the game.") and the more insidious content-lurking. Lots of posts, lots of words... but not a lot of meaning.

4.) Spring, Ecto, Porkens, Vi(ish).
Zorblag(ish), tajo, &flay in ongoings.
Ish means that one of us replaced into the game after the other was dead. So.

5.) None.

6.) Epicmafia doesn't really count as mafia, but sure.

1: I think I did this last game we were in. Seriously too tedious for me to go through again. I haven't played in 2 months now.

2: This one

3: People who pop in every 4 days with 1 liners.

4: Adel, Springlullaby, Zorblag, spyrex. I think.

5: none

6: none

1.

Newbie 716 (http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10068)
Open 123 (http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10636)
Mini 743 (http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10488)
Mini 727 (http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10182)

There are others, but these are the most noteworthy.

2. This is the only game in which I'm alive right now.

3. When I feel that somebody's keeping up with the game, but purposefully refusing to provide content, I'd call them lurking.

4. Ecto, Spring, Hero, Tajo

5. None

6. None

1. From the top of my head, Hack Poetry Mini Normal; Killing Verses Mini Theme; Town of Merrin Mini Normal; Freelancer Large Theme.
2. Chosen Mini Theme; Beards Mini Normal; And Then There were None Mini Theme; DHDSM.
3. People who don't post.
4. In the last six months? Ectomancer and poptajo(ongoing) I think.
5. Nyballosulgniirkps
6. No comment.

1 and 2. It be easiest to look on Troll's wiki. It has the games broken down by current, finished as town and finished as scum. It covers slighty over 6 months but not by so much as to be bothersome Troll thinks.

3. Like a couple others Troll would break lurking into a couple categories. There be lurking by not posting for long stretches and active lurking which be anything where the player be posting but not making a noticeable effort to find scum. Troll answering these questions would probably count as active lurking if Troll made a pattern of this sort of thing and no contributed in other ways. Adel asking for the information be less likely to.

4. Troll thinks it just be populartajo. Spyrex did join a game after Troll died but we no had direct interaction. Troll no can think of the game that Ectomancer has in mind that Troll might have played with him.

5. None.

6. None.

1. what games (with links) have you finished in the last 6 months? I

have played tons of games in the last 6 months. Link them would be a pain in the ass. From the top of my head. All WIH, Family Guy, Past ages, Drawn together, Insane Assylum, etc

2. what are your on-going games?

Im in LAL, this game, Nasubi, Adel games, MKM, And there were none, Chosen, open 141,

3. what is your personal definition of lurking?

Not posting or posting dumb things to avoid prod.

4. of the players in this game, which players have you played with in the last six months?

Adel, spring, zorblag, spyrex, Vi, Artem, Elmo

5. what other names do you play mafia under here?

I have some alts, try to guess them.

6. what other sites have you played at within the last six months?

None.

1. You can click my wiki, it's quite comprehensive.
2. same.
3. reading a certain game but not contributing to it.
4. SpyreX, Herod, Vi, I think.
5. none
6. EpicMafia

1.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10068
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10526
plus some marathon games

2.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11252

3.
Posting only often enough to avoid prods would almost always qualify.
Averaging only X sentences per day that are relevant to the game would qualify as lurking for some value of X which probably depends on the game and the gamestate (though I'm not suggesting I would literally count.)
Making only meaningless statements about the game would often qualify as lurking.
If over a sustained period, I don't know another player's positions regarding the issues we're discussing, they're probably lurking.
Other characteristics of peoples' posting could also mean they were lurking. I can't think of a good complete definition.

4.
Porkens and Artem
again, not including marathon day games... which would add at least Spring and Populartajo

5.
If I was playing under a different username, I don't think I'd reveal that.

6.
None.

1 and 2. Refer to my wiki page.
3. Post elsewhere but not here over an extended period of time. (This is not to be confused with "Active Lurking", where you show up occasionally, say nothing of import, and leave.)
4. taco and Porkens.
5 and 6. I'll leave that for you to guess.

1. DHSDSM Alpha, Crackers!, Xyl's Relative Chaos, Open 133 Lovers, Open 108 Weak MD, Speed Dating Smalltown, WaTR, Roccisi Autumn, Newbie 709 and Newbie 728

2. Open 142 True Love, Mafia in Ludd, Roccisi Summer and DHSDSM Beta

3. lack of contribution

4. Ectomancer, Adel, springlullaby, SpyreX (I am sad you forgot me ), Vi, populartajo (I am sad you forgot me ), Elmo

5. outed alts are: Doc (Friends and Enemies and Enemies and That Other Guy) and Bloodmoney (latter was Martyr Mafia, replaced out); in DHSDSM alpha and beta i am half of Trotsky

6. EpicMafia, IRC, ScumChat

are these the final answers? I'll give Elmo 72 hours to reply, or get replaced, before I answer them myself.

[Adel]

The reason I'm excusing Elmo (temporarily) is because Elmo warned us before the game that they might have to lurk due to RL factors. Otherwise, I might have voted Elmo in my last post.

ah, so if there was another player with activity as low as ecto's (or lower) you would not excuse that?

[Adel]

EBWOQ:

The reason I'm excusing Elmo (temporarily) is because Elmo warned us before the game that they might have to lurk due to RL factors. Otherwise, I might have voted Elmo in my last post.

ah, so if there was another player with activity as low as

ecto's

elmo's

(or lower) you would not excuse that?

[Adel]

The reason I'm excusing Elmo (temporarily) is because Elmo warned us before the game that they might have to lurk due to RL factors. Otherwise, I might have voted Elmo in my last post.

ah, so if there was another player with activity as low as ecto's (or lower) you would not excuse that?

/

Akbar

(it's a TRAP!)

not very pro-town

@Adel:
If there is another player in this game who has posted as much as or less than the amount Elmo had posted as of my post 122, then I must not have noticed them at all. There may be people actively lurking, but I have not yet put any effort into evaluating that.
But I'd think if there was a lurker, they would be a decent person to vote (unless they were about to be replaced for their inactivity.)
If you're referring to another game I've played, specify the player, and I'll explain why I didn't vote them.

look at springlullby.

vote: Spring

There's something fishy about being 200% town...

this post is notable.

Vote: Adel

You may be planning to contribute a lot soon, but so far you have not. You're "aware of the search function" but stated that the reason you insisted on everyone posting their own games was that you would "have to do all of the work myself" otherwise. It's about 20 seconds of work per player, that way. Not much more than finding their list within the thread.

it takes less time to check the activity of other players than it does to build a database of their previous games which are current enough to base a meta read upon.

unvote, vote: Herodotus

most likely partner: springlullby
second most likely partner: Porkens

[Adel]

vote: Spring

There's something fishy about being 200% town...

this post is notable.

Why?

this post is notable because it might be a form of distraction -- of all of the statements in the post he snipped this from, why is this the one he wants me to expand upon?

Anyhow, the first name the father of history choose to mention was Spring, and that his who his random vote was cast upon.

[Adel]

Anyhow, the first name the father of history choose to mention was Spring, and that his who his random vote was cast upon.

He random voted spring, but later did not notice that her activity level was low, and he voted me for not contributing.

[Adel]

Herod and Adel:

It was an obviously loaded question. I didn't give anything away (especially not to Herod). "Not pro-town?" I just shake my head at that statement.

just because it was an obviously loaded question to

you

doesn't mean that H. would've picked up on that. You have to give possibly-scum players a chance to make mistakes.

I think Ecto is townish with his contribution so far and Spyrex comes off as weaker in the exchange, I don't think Ecto qualify as 'trying too hard', what he has said so far makes sense and I find the level of aggression to be adequate.

---

could all players please answer the following questions:

1. what games (with links) have you finished in the last 6 months?
2. what are your on-going games?
3. what is your personal definition of lurking?
4. of the players in this game, which players have you played with in the last six months?
5. what other names do you play mafia under here?
6. what other sites have you played at within the last six months?

I gotta say I don't really see the point to these questions mafia wise and I'd like an explanation for the choice of each of them please. I'd also like you to answer your own questionnaire. My request is only vaguely mafia motivated, I'm kind of just curious about your alts and turnabout is only fair play I guess. Now,

1. From the top of my head, Hack Poetry Mini Normal; Killing Verses Mini Theme; Town of Merrin Mini Normal; Freelancer Large Theme.
2. Chosen Mini Theme; Beards Mini Normal; And Then There were None Mini Theme; DHDSM.
3. People who don't post.
4. In the last six months? Ectomancer and poptajo(ongoing) I think.
5. Nyballosulgniirkps
6. No comment.

---

Atm, I think Porkens not keeping that third vote on is good bread.

Vote Porkens

And in total, her one post stated more game-relevant analysis than either you or populartajo had written.

really? I'm generating game-relevant information, she offered a couple of opinions on page 2. It stands out to me that she had a rapid random wagon on her on page 1 that dissolved so quickly.... and then you "didn't notice" that she was lurking worse than elmo.

Vote: Adel

You may be planning to contribute a lot soon, but so far you have not. You're "aware of the search function" but stated that the reason you insisted on everyone posting their own games was that you would "have to do all of the work myself" otherwise.

It's about 20 seconds of work per player, that way. Not much more than finding their list within the thread.

it takes less time to check the activity of other players than it does to build a database of their previous games which are current enough to base a meta read upon.

unvote, vote: Herodotus

most likely partner: springlullby
second most likely partner: Porkens

I'm not saying you haven't devoted time to this game. I'm pretty confident that you have. But you've stated very few opinions on the things that were going on while you were arguing with people over what I see as an irrelevant issue. Also, my vote on you was partly based on the contradiction I mentioned in that post.

I placed a section in bold. Does that section contain the contradiction you just referenced?
If so, I don't think you appreciate how time intensive it is to do what I do, or how I approach the psychological aspects of this game. There is informational utility in my approach of asking players to volunteer information. I plan on paying special attention to the games they "accidentally" left off of the lists, and the players they "forgot" to mention having played with before.

[Adel]

Vi: please try asking me straight questions rather than snide rhetorical bullshit like you've been directing at me.

[Adel]

5 and 6. I'll leave that for you to guess.

Adel's commentary on the early game fighting (27) seems limited. Why? And instead of causing discussion, Adel ordered us to put together what seems to be irrelevant information. So far, dubious.

I hate the nonsense stage almost as much as the random stage.

Tajo: pull your stick out and reread your posts. You aren't unique in your lack of diligence in your answer, but I am extra disappointed in you

I'm pissed because this lack of cooperation means that I'll have to do all of the work myself, instead of just quality assurance checks, meanwhile the rest of you can continue your social bullshit sessions.

Hey wait, I'm supposed to be the antisocial prick in this game.

Speaking as the person with the most comprehensive wiki page on the site (probably), I also take umbrage with--

"top of your head" (along with other answers like "most of them are on my wiki" that other players gave) is the kind of answer that dodges responsibility for omissions. It also means that I've wasted my time with you, since I'll have to do all of the work myself.

If you really want to stalk everyone, you can use the Search function to find the topics someone's posted in (conveniently giving you a list!) within about forty seconds.

If you really want to stalk everyone, you can use the Search function to find the topics someone's posted in (conveniently giving you a list!) within about forty seconds.

Vi may be an apt name for you after all..

tbqh I expected snide commentary about stalking people, not being a village idiot. Explain yourself.

On second thought, don't. This is getting... unprofessional is the first polite word I can think of.

Did you honestly think that I was unaware of the search function?

Instead of giving you what would appear to me to be a perfectly sensible (if overwhelmingly sarcastic) answer, I'm going to go away and give some other people a chance to express their incredulity.

Again, I ask this question.

Do you believe any of what has been said so far

(outside answering your survey)

has been beneficial to finding scum?

Catching up, etc. I'm not going to lie, this game is kind of irritating.

Before I do anything else, I'm going to:

Unvote: Zorblag
Vote: Adel

(L-5)
You came, you demanded, you stalled, you received, you're still stalling, you haven't delivered.

More to come in a moment.

@Adel 120: "Are these the final answers"? Was there really any need for that confirmation? It seems like noise at best and patronizing at worst (people have told me I would know what being patronizing is like ).

Adel 133 defies credibility. Nitpicking Porkens' statement - which the way I interpreted it actually

was

pro-Town - and then suggesting that Herodotus was not policy voting a supposed lurker instead of pursuing an IMO rightfully-placed reasoned vote on you overloads my scumdar.

@Vi: this is what you've directed at me so far in this game. Are you actually

trying

to pick a fight with me? I suggest that you consult with Ecto or Korts (the players with the most experience playing with me) before you commit to that.

[Adel]

timing is very important in mafia, and is something I take quite seriously. I'll reveal what I choose to reveal when I judge it is the best time to do so.

Incidentally, was Herodotus scummy for failing to notice the loaded question?

um, he answered it.

1. what games (with links) have you finished in the last 6 months?
2. what are your on-going games?
3. what is your personal definition of lurking?
4. of the players in this game, which players have you played with in the last six months?
5. what other names do you play mafia under here?
6. what other sites have you played at within the last six months?

1&4 will have to wait for when I have time to do it properly -- within 24 hours.
2: only this one
3: a: posting just enough to avoid a prod, b: low signal:noise ratio, c: passive (as opposed to "active") posting.
5: only 1 game as "discordian algorithm" played quite a while ago
6. Epicmafia under the name "Adel" and "Adel1" IIRC

[Adel]

try harder kid. a) what makes you think that he didn't? b) why ask that question instead of noting that there are at least two players making a smaller contribution than me while his vote remains upon me for "not contributing" and c) if you honestly feel like I am evading questions I gave you a very good opening to restate those questions you want answers to, yet you ask a highly trivial question.

[Adel]

t;]I'm generating game-relevant information, she offered a couple of opinions on page 2. It stands out to me that she had a rapid random wagon on her on page 1 that dissolved so quickly.... and then you "didn't notice" that she was lurking worse than elmo.

Now you're saying something that's provably not true. They both had one post. Elmo's contained only a vote while spring's contained a handful of points plus a vote.
And by the way, why were you accusing Elmo of lurking if you thought Spring was "lurking worse"?

my mistake, my timeline got messed up. At this point she is lurking worse than Elmo, thanks to his recent post, and I'd moved up on my mental list of lurkers. btw, thanks pointed out that Tajo has been lurking, I missed that.

As far as omissions are concerned, I'd expect they'd be more likely inadvertent.

hence my gruffness and repeated attempt to get people to ammend their lists.

On a related note, is it acceptable to you that I didn't include my marathon games? I think others didn't include them either.

marathon games are very useful! Players play much more on reflex and out of habit in marathon games, and looking at them is invaluable.

But when I say that you have not yet contributed, what I mean is that until your case on me, you had very few comments on the issues other players were discussing.

I'm used to replacing into games. I have a very low opinion of any "cases" or "opinions" that are presented in the typical manner of mafiascum day 1s. Subliminal information is much more important, but that requires player-specific metas in order to evaluate -- which takes time to build.

either that, or it is page 1 chainsaw defense.

serves as a note to myself. It is a general scumtell that may be a player specific scumtell.

says the person that unvoted SpyreX .

points out a contradiction for me to follow up on later

Not true, especially early in a day 1. There are numerous non-scummy reasons to place a vote without explicit reasoning.

general mafia theory. I didn't want "votes must only be given with reasons" to be accepted as being "pro-town" meme when I seriously disagree with it.

did anyone else notice that he made a post on the site recently, just not in this game?

Who thinks he is lurking?

pointing out that elmo was lurking has utility for the town, and encourages elmo to post more.

I see these as being pretty minimal in terms of expression of opinions and ideas.

they are also dense with information.

Everything else you'd said up to that point was about your questions and arguing with people whose answers were incomplete or dismissive.

I was trying to get better accuracy in the lists, so they would be more useful in identifying scummy omissions.

If they lead to something useful, that will be great. But you've skipped over the actual game that's been taking place in the meantime.

the actual game so far has been pretty typical. I am satisfied that there is enough shit-stirring going on. I am interested in encouraging more even levels of participation at this point.

[Adel]

(b) You seem nervous about my vote, which surprises me. And I never promised to always vote for whatever player said the least. I was originally responding to what you and Porkens said in 119-121.

I haven't systematically looked at people yet. Your vote on me stood out, so I took a close look at your posts, and saw enough warrant a vote.

(c) I have a question: do you find populartajo suspicious?

I haven't looked at him yet. give me 60 seconds to look at his posts.

[Adel]

other than his low signal:noise ratio, and

I dont think you need the information THAT MUCH so I gave you a list already of some of the games I most remember. If its not enough then tell me the reason why should I link you to all my games.

-- which is like "please tell me how you plan on using this information to catch scum before I post that information" -- there isn't much.
I'd like for him to post more, so,

unvote, vote: populartajo

would you care to join me on this wagon? There is plenty of room, the music is great!

[Adel]

IMHO posting the names of people you have town (regardless of your actual alignment) reads on helps scum players more than town players.

FWIW, it is probably better that Herodotus toned down his aggression in this game so far. Too many aggressive players is usually results in a townie cluster-fuck, and an easy scum win.

[Adel]

Mini 741 replaced out day 1, town, replaced by springlullaby (thanks!), other players: SpyreX (town)
Newbie 659 replaced in day 2, town, lost in endgame. No other players in this game.
Mini 650 replaced in day 3, scum, survived, other players: none
Mini 703 replaced in day 2, townie, survived, other players: Korts & Ecto (both were town)
Mafia 88, replaced in N4, mafia, survived. Other players: Elmo (town, died before I replaced in), Ecto (town, replaced out before I replaced in)
Martyr Mafia replaced in day 2, town while I was alive, both killed and recruited N2, lost, other players: populartajo (was also town while I was alive)

Full list of other players: SpyreX, springlullaby, Ecto, Korts, populartajo

[Adel]

I've only skimmed the last couple of pages, but I feel like I nned to immediately respond to this:

Meta arguments by nature, right or wrong, are some of the weakest arguments one can have. They are far more easily waved away if wrong and are a great tool for scum to pile on with.

Not true. In fact, "scumtells" are meaningless without a specific meta on a specific player to give context. There essentially isn't such a thing as a "universal scumtell" but there certainly are player-specific scumtells. Just because the vast majority of players don't do it right (i.e. effectively) doesn't mean that they are inherently weak as a class.

[Adel]

try reading http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11368 or mini 703, any of the games I've played as town in the last year... like Open 83 Polygamist mafia, which I am sure you remember. My deep meta analysis helps us win that game.

[Adel]

regarding epic mafia, I actually played as "adele" and "adele2"

I have some game links on my bio there:

http://www.epicmafia.com/game/index/75585
win by fail

My weirdest game so far: http://www.epicmafia.com/game/index/75631
both of us blues survived alone in 163. coolviv7 is awesome!

Please check out my setups. I spend a lot of time thinking about them, and constructive criticism is very welcome!

I think that ~Epic Lovers Mafia~ is my best setup yet on this site: Epic Lovers Mafia
http://www.epicmafia.com/lobby/setup/11053

I got my first karma ding after this game: http://www.epicmafia.com/game/index/75634

I tried a google search for "adele site:epicmafia.com" and didn't get any game hits? Does anyone know how to search for past games by player name there? I don't.

[Adel]

huh, and now those links are broken. they used to work

[Adel]

unvote, vote: SpyreX

[Adel]

not sharing yet. I want to see if other players find reasons to vote for him or not.

[Adel]

Adel, does it be time to talk about your vote for SpyreX yet or do you still be waiting to see what people will do?

I'll give other players a couple of additional days before I start pushing his wagon again.

[Adel]

I'm not going to vote for Artem unless someone presents a solid case. Pseudo-random day 1 witch hunt seems to be the current cause of his wagon.

[Adel]

here ya go:

I agree with the Artem vote.

Spring - is playing pretty much like she did in the other two games (where I knew her alignment to be town); and I still stand by my earlier point that the best way to get SL posting is to start pushing a case on her (and I don't really have the stamina or purpose to do it a third time).

This passage is entirely weird and I think artificial: the fact that the motive by which he is putting me at townish is because I have not contributed is mind boggling, I believe that the furthermost any honest townie can read into a meta back-ed absence is giving a nulltell.

The meta is also off. I contributed much more unprompted in both games we were in.

Then consider the second part of the post which is basically an encouragement for people to 'push a case' on me while having no part of it and having me at 'townish'.

I'm surprised this hasn't raised more red flags because it is quite the scummy.

I also think his defence face Spyrex's case is not good, it is overly exasperated at some point, and make emotional 'I'm intimidated' appeal at other. And his vote on Spyrex is also nebulous. I don't get it.

Unvote Vote Artem

The meta is also off. I contributed much more unprompted in both games we were in.

I don't think the meta was off when I made that post. Yes, now that you've avoided posting content for pages, the meta is off, but who's to say you didn't do it on purpose so that you can make this argument?

I was kinda waiting you around the corner on this one, and you sort of exceed expectations.
1. Your meta was off at the time of your post for the simple reason that my absence which you read as town was caused by VLA, as was mentioned in thread before your post. I think this should have nullified any read in the mind of a honest townie since no purpose can be read into my absence under these circumstances. Agree/disagree?
2. So, you think 'I threw off' my meta for the purpose of...framing you? Are you serious? Lol. I think that's quite the scummy counter here.

I also think his defence face Spyrex's case is not good, it is overly exasperated at some point, and make emotional 'I'm intimidated' appeal at other.

The only place I've said "I'm intimidated with the cast" was when I was explaining to Vi why my posts are concise and unsure. Can you please quote where I used "I'm intimidated" appeal in my defense against SpyreX?

Well, this is actually true. What struck me was the dissonance between you making such a post alluding at being intimidated with overtone of shyness, of 'relative newbie card', and your later defence face Spyrex in which you did not read intimidated at all.

----------------------------------------------------------------
Right now I like my Artem vote.
Zorblag is looking scummy because his case on me is a lot of words, weak reasoning, and warped arguments. The strangeness about his relation to Artem's in the post supposedly addressing my guiltiness may be relevant later.

I need to reread everyone else.

are there some critical posts of your's that I somehow missed? Right now all I see is blather: I do not see a coherent case against Artem.

I'm not going to vote for Artem unless someone presents a solid case. Pseudo-random day 1 witch hunt seems to be the current cause of his wagon.

This is not acceptable. There has been a lot being said about Artem, with people voting for him for a myriad of reasons.

Do delineate clearly which reason you find to be 'pseudo-random' and why.

your case seems to be pseudo-random, and typical of those voting for Artem.

I'm throwing the "bullshit" flag. Your case against him, judging exclusively from your words, does not convince.

Telling me that my objection is "not acceptable" is noteworthy, and lends support to my suspicion that the wagon against him is just a witch hunt.

[Adel]

refine you argument into something clear and concise please... otherwise I'll continue to consider your case to be pseudo-random bullshit. "pseudo-random bullshit" is my default category for all day 1 cases, until something prompts me to recategorize them into a more substantial category.

[Adel]

@Elmo, not right now, thank you. I'm gonna stick with Sprex. In open 83 it helped with determining that forbiddanlight, Skruffs and Erg0 and Shy Guy (Guardian alt) were all town. I'm being more open about my process here since I don't expect to live long in this game and I want other town players to learn how to use meta to capture scum without cluing the scum in first. If you dig into my posts there you will undoubtibly find evidence of my method. IIRC it was especially important for figuring forbiddenlight out, and how to disarm Shy Guy who replaced in and immediately gunned for me.

[Adel]

Spring, why does Adel's mere lack of support get more attention than me shouting that Artem is town?

*ahem* did you miss that she was trying to get me to argue

why

I thought the wagon was pseudo-random bullshit? She doesn't seem to want to actually argue why she supports the wagon.

[Adel]

You just wrote, and I can't believe this:

Here is the list of people I find scummy: The people voting me + a lurker.

I'd still love Adel to explain how MY vote is "a witch hunt" considering even if you disagree I have actual reasons for my vote. And yes, I'm singling myself out because this mystery business has ended with an unexplained vote on me.

dude, you are not at lynch -2. This isn't "Why should you vote for him" time, it is "why should he be at -2 without clear and concise cases" time -- and so far you are not helping.

I see a bullshit wagon on a (relatively) weaker player, and a bunch of blather excusing it.

I do not want him to claim, and I do not want anyone else to vote for him right now. I want to clear and concise arguments, or GTFO his wagon.

[Adel]

And, weaker player or strong player, the coincidental fact that his list of suspects is every person voting for him + a lurker vote IS noteworthy and IS going to stand out.

are you claiming that that is a player-specific scumtell or a universal scumtell?

[Adel]

unvote, vote: Porkens

I guess I'll have to return to Spryx later.

[Adel]

-----

Right now all I see is blather: I do not see a coherent case against Artem.

refine you argument into something clear and concise please... otherwise I'll continue to consider your case to be pseudo-random bullshit.

So is your objection based on

substance

(i.e. instances where Artem has been understood to be scummy by his attackers) or on

style

(i.e. instances were Artem's attackers have not properly stated what they understand to be scummy)?

primarily wagon mechanics (it ain't a bus, and there isn't a scum-driven competing wagon) followed by substance (unconvincing) and then style.

Also, what of SpyreX's quote block?

Someone who has been there to snipe and jump on some spurious bandwagons.
Someone who unapologetically wanted a bandwagon for "generating content".
Someone who gave a rather lengthy post explaining in detail why at any given point his reads can change. In selfsame post also gave a page 7 "feeler" list of some townies (but of course not the entire game).
Someone who is justifying this latest move with meta. Sigh. Further, with a sample set of 1. Double Sigh.
Someone who agrees that said meta is weak, apologizes and then votes.

utterly unconvincing blather.

I'm being more open about my process here since

I don't expect to live long in this game

Why not?

in my last game, on I replaced in on day 2, during night 2 with 12 or 13 players alive, two out of the three players with night moves two of them targeted me. I expect to get night killed in this game, obviously.

[Adel]

@ADel: You definitely have until the lynch, which probably won't be for at least a week, and while it's obviously possible, I wouldn't take it for granted that you'll be night killed.

lol at veiled threats.

[Adel]

(insert appeal to experience here)

[Adel]

@father of history- while I think that you were correct about that one thing you pointed out about Vi, I don't think that your post pointing out that what he was pointing out probably isn't pro-town, probably also isn't pro-town.

@Elmo: are you down with a Herodotus wagon right now?

[Adel]

from that list only Herod really is pinging as scum right now.

[Adel]

tajo and I have joined mafia 94. tajo: post more in this game please..

[Adel]

For the others, I'm not going to give the scum information on my neutral/town reads.

Blather. If you don't have a sum read than you must have a town or neutral read.

[Adel]

Artem has been generally badly posting and misrepresenting or twisting arguments. That's the gist of my vote.

Do you claim that bad logic is a universal scumtell, or do have evidence that Artem's use of bad logic is limited to when he is scum?

[Adel]

*do

you

have evidence that Artem's use of bad logic is limited to when he is scum?

Also, hypothetically speaking, if one of (Elmo Herod) is scum, do think the other is likely or unlikely to be scum?

[Adel]

unvote, vote:populartajo

reason: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/search.p ... opulartajo
he is actively posting in other games, joined a large game, and is actively lurking in this game.

[Adel]

Artem has been generally badly posting and misrepresenting or twisting arguments. That's the gist of my vote.

Do you claim that bad logic is a universal scumtell, or do you have evidence that Artem's use of bad logic is limited to when he is scum?

There is no such thing as a universal scumtell, but misrepresentation comes pretty damn close. Also, my "badly posting" comment is supposed to mean that I have problems with Artem's choice of words and general behaviour, not with his bad logic.

same question then, just replace "bad logic" with "bad word choice and general behavior".

also, please respond to

Also, hypothetically speaking, if one of (Elmo Herod) is scum, do think the other is likely or unlikely to be scum?

* This assumes Artem is not one of the classic "must-save" scum roles (see recruiter, etc). If this is the case Elmo doesn't even get to defend themselves and go off the plank tomorrow.

which other roles are "must save"?

[Adel]

last three post by populartajo:

Im here catching up all i missed

Im catching up tonight.

This is a promise.

unvote, vote:populartajo

reason: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/search.p ... opulartajo
he is actively posting in other games, joined a large game, and is actively lurking in this game.

Other games dont need a reread of hundreds of wallotexts.

I promised tonight.

You now wait for it.

meanwhile he has made more than 70 other posts on this site.

Bandwagon now, please.

[Adel]

last three post by populartajo:

Im here catching up all i missed

Im catching up tonight.

This is a promise.

unvote, vote:populartajo

reason: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/search.p ... opulartajo
he is actively posting in other games, joined a large game, and is actively lurking in this game.

Other games dont need a reread of hundreds of wallotexts.

I promised tonight.

You now wait for it.

Fuck it Adel.

Other games dont need a reread of hundreds of wallotexts.

I promised tonight.

You now wait for it.

meanwhile he has made more than 70 other posts on this site.

Bandwagon now, please.

[Adel]

unvote, vote: Herodotus

he bailed on Atrem, and now is wagoning Tajo. I don't think that either of those players are scum.

If Herodotus is scum, I see Elmo as being his most likely buddy.

[Adel]

lol, when did I say that tajo was scum? I simply wanted him to pay more attention to this game, and give opportunistic scum a chance to wagon with me.

[Adel]

lol, when did I say that tajo was scum? I simply wanted him to pay more attention to this game, and give opportunistic scum a chance to wagon with me.

'Seems like a recurring theme.
How many more wagons are you planning to not seriously start/join?

this is how I play.

an example:
9 out of the 21 votes were cast by me. We (the town) won that game... as Ecto should recall, since he posted

Nice job Adel. I would have lynched Korts.

after we won in endgame (he was already dead at that point).


~~~

@ Korts: I know you are hella busy on site, and that some of these players have diarrhea of the hands in this game, but please try to get more involved here.

[Adel]

I've been asking Adel to come out with her analysis for at least 10(?) pages.

you are talking to a person that thinks in terms of

days

instead of mere

pages

. I think you may need to find a new stalling tactic -- this one isn't going to get you anywhere.

[Adel]

unvote, vote Adel

unvote, vote: Herodotus
he bailed on Atrem, and now is wagoning Tajo. I don't think that either of those players are scum.

meanwhile he has made more than 70 other posts on this site.

Bandwagon now, please.

meanwhile he has made more than 70 other posts on this site.

Bandwagon now, please.

unvote, vote:populartajo
reason: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/search.p ... opulartajo
he is actively posting in other games, joined a large game, and is actively lurking in this game.

Adel 383 needs considerably more explanation than what was given considering the complete 180 on tajo.

lol, when did I say that tajo was scum? I simply wanted him to pay more attention to this game, and give opportunistic scum a chance to wagon with me.

@SpyreX: since I established that there was no contradiction between my vote on tajo and my unvote, you've posted 13 times on this site. Why is your vote still on me?

[Adel]

People usually let her ride until Day 2 for her promised Holy Grail of Analytical scum

, and to be quite honest, I've rarely found that they help me find scum, and I dont see where Adel's play has improved either. Adel deserves the hardcore pressure cooker.

the portion in bold is nagging me... a) I usually replace into games, b) when I do play in day 1 I am usually confrontational and aggressive, c) I fail to see how this could be a genuine opinion that Ecto generated honestly.

[Adel]

Expecting to be a night kill and implying that there is going to be no payout for all your Q&A isn't sweet.

lol, at this point I think that I'm scummy enough to avoid a NK

"Lol reactions" is weak at best.

lol

[Adel]

And, as the amount of useful meta I've seen (omg meta-meta) couldn't be measured by any device known to man I'm going to continue railing against it.

do you still stand by this statement?

[Adel]

I fail to see how this could be a genuine opinion that Ecto generated honestly.

I don't understand.

like, it isn't based upon evidence or experience. I think it is a lie.

[Adel]

I'm still going to think meta is retarded and maybe

how long have you felt this way about meta?

[Adel]

People usually let her ride until Day 2 for her promised Holy Grail of Analytical scum

, and to be quite honest, I've rarely found that they help me find scum, and I dont see where Adel's play has improved either. Adel deserves the hardcore pressure cooker.

the portion in bold is nagging me... a) I usually replace into games, b) when I do play in day 1 I am usually confrontational and aggressive, c) I fail to see how this could be a genuine opinion that Ecto generated honestly.

Ecto just went off on a tangent. Bold is what I was talking about.

Name 1 example from your experience where people let me ride until day 2?

[Adel]

which two points?

[Adel]

please answer quickly. I want you to prove that you aren't just stalling.

[Adel]

don't bother looknig up quotes, just say them in your own words. Your speed of response is more important than total accuracy here.

Also, I can prove that you are online currently.

[Adel]

yes. (which isn't proof, but I wanted to pressure him into responding instead of skipping out)

[Adel]

I like the namedrop analysis. Will you do it for all players? The full dataset would be more valuable if it were all done at the same time.


RE: Porkens, he is stalling.

[Adel]

Adel hasn't DONE anything this game. Its also making my eyes bleed a little at this new poking at Porkens (when its obvious what the questions are) for "stalling" when he doesn't respond verbatim. Hypocrisy, thy name is Adel.

I've done 3 thing:
1. stated a meta conversation
2. got you to say that meta is crap, over and over
3. I derailed the Artrem wagon.

all 3 are significant.

[Adel]

this is interesting.
observations:
Zorblag has the biggest difference between who he talks about the most, and who he talks about the least.
Ecto has the least amount of difference between who he talks about the most, and the least.

I didn't do averages or medians for the collumns and rows, but I'll add that in if someone likes.

generally, players who are mentioned the least are the ones slipping by with little interaction

spring is an outlier. she is mention a lot by some and ignored by other.

relative to how much he mentions others, Elmo stands out for not mentioning Atrem. If we were to lynch Atrem, and found that Atrem were town, I would count this as a strong tell against Elmo.

Look for situations where player X mentions player y a lot, but player y doesn't mention x. Is "buddying up" or "unanswered attacks" taking place? In either case, that might be a tell against player y.

This is one place where a deep meta might prove informative. For instance, Ecto is very even in who he talks about. He has made 37 posts in this game. Look at the first 37 posts of each of the games in his meta, and see if there is a difference when he is scum and town in terms of how evenly he mentions other players. Ditto for Zorblag. These are the kinds of subliminal tells that a player specific meta can provide that scum players won't have identified before the game started.

[Adel]

EBWOQ:

Look for situations where player X mentions player y a lot, but player y doesn't mention x. Is "buddying up" or "unanswered attacks" taking place? In either case, that might be a tell against player

x. If x is scum and "buddying up" happened, depending on meta, then y is more likely town. If "unanswered attacks" happened then, depending upon meta, player y is more likely to be scum

[Adel]

relative to how much he mentions others, Elmo stands out for not mentioning Atrem. If we were to lynch Atrem, and found that Atrem were town, I would count this as a strong tell against Elmo.

lol, you are missing a 9. Artem is the person I have mentioned most!

dammit, did I just get the axis wrong from your table? No wonder, it is way past my bedtime, I'll have to fix it tomorrow. -- too tired right now.

[Adel]

@Adel:

You said that there was no scum-driven competing wagon to my wagon. Do you think the wagon on you is/was a scum-driven attempt to derail Hero's wagon?

What do you think?

How much attention has my wagon received relative to other wagon that were at two votes, and had peaked at three votes?

[Adel]

Can you please post your chart for this game for, oh I don't know, posts 375 onward?

no chart yet. I haven't bothered.

[Adel]

[Adel]

I'll try to finish it before twilight ends.

@Porkens&SpryX: were you aware of where H. was at when you voted?

[Adel]

fos: SpryeX and Porkens

for real.

Hero: assuming that you are town, any final words? How do you thin is most responsible for your lynch? Who should we look most closely at tomorrow? Which of your posts should we pay special heed to tomorrow?

[Adel]

Adel, the fact that you didn't have a chart that was concurrent with the game is actually a point against you.

I think that a lot of votes on you were because players suspected that you were pretending to be busy running some deep analysis in the background. So when it turns that you don't even have a chart, which according to you is the how you play this game, then I'm more inclined to side with the sentiment that a lot of the mystery was for show.

Of course, now if Hero flips scum, I'd be more inclined to buy into the scum-driven derailing of Hero's wagon, which would buy you townie points.

I start charts once I have trouble keeping stuff straight. I was still in the "soaking in the vibe" stage, and doing a lot of undirected reading. I wasn't even close to letting this day finish.

Spryx was paired with me in ___
Spryx mentioned in the "am I good player thread" thread on ____ that " "
Spryx has referenced meta use in a positive way in these games ____ as town.
Spryx has made these other posts mentioning meta____

datamine starting point: search author: Spryx

narrative:

adel places focus opon meta
artem attacks hero on meta grounds
spryx attacks meta as abstract notion
adel challenges atrem wagon... it disollves
spryx attempts to link adel to hero

this was the post that I was in the middle of working on. I've found a couple referenced in SpryX's past games that seem to indicate that the "i think that meta is nonesense" argument he forwarded in this game is bullshit. PLEASE look into that if I die tonight

viewtopic.php?p=1298220#1298220

congrats, you have a meta for blindly hammering. Yet another player who thinks that having an anti-town meta will help thenm in games, just what this site needs.

[Adel]

For Real FOS?

Considering ohh, Herod himself, Artem, Ecto, Elmo and you posted almost a whole page without noticing too the "for real" makes little sense.

YOU DON"T VOTE WITHOUT NOTING THE CURRENT VOTECOUNT!

[Adel]

You also seem pretty confident that Herod is gunna flip scum yet

you weren't on his wagon

.

I don't see this. Atrem doesn't seem confident of hero's alignment to me Are you trying to set him up, again?

[Adel]

sima-posted with[quote="Artem"

I think my stance on Hero was pretty clear without a vote.[/quote]
have I been defending the wrong guy for the last half of this day?

[Adel]

@514: Aaah... I see now.

Still, I don't think it makes sense. Why would a wagon start building up on Adel while Hero is under pressure, but not when I was under pressure? People finally had enough of it... all of a sudden? No, I think if Hero flips scum, Adel is town.

it wasn't even a major wagon on me! It was just referenced a lot of times! I never had the same number of votes as H, let alone more.

This is highly unusual in my experience.. I'm not sure what to make of it. I think that if H. flips scum then looking at players referenced my wagon multiple times without getting on board is a good idea.

[Adel]

These two posts are the onse from which I get the "he knows Herod is scum" vibe:

Adel, the fact that you didn't have a chart that was concurrent with the game is actually a point against you.

I think that a lot of votes on you were because players suspected that you were pretending to be busy running some deep analysis in the background. So when it turns that you don't even have a chart, which according to you is the how you play this game, then I'm more inclined to side with the sentiment that a lot of the mystery was for show.

Of course, now if Hero flips scum, I'd be more inclined to buy into the scum-driven derailing of Hero's wagon, which would buy you townie points.

This, comming out when it does looks, to me, like a setup in it's own right. It's a declaration that Adel will get townpoints iff Herod flips scum. There's no merit to doing so unless Artem will personally gain from it.

and...

(RE: I said Artem was busing Herod) Are you talking in the mirror there buddy?

^^^This accusation hinges on Herod being scum.

eh, I don't buy it. Assuming that Atrem is scum, either way H. flips, Atrem-scum would gain. If H. is scum, then he can NK me and look good tomorrow, if H is town then he can try to lynch me tomorrow.

[Adel]

@514: Aaah... I see now.

Still, I don't think it makes sense. Why would a wagon start building up on Adel while Hero is under pressure, but not when I was under pressure? People finally had enough of it... all of a sudden? No, I think if Hero flips scum, Adel is town.

it wasn't even a major wagon on me! It was just referenced a lot of times! I never had the same number of votes as H, let alone more.

This is highly unusual in my experience..

I'm not sure what to make of it. I think that if H. flips scum then looking at players referenced my wagon multiple times without getting on board is a good idea.

I don't actually follow the bolded part. Why would

not

being on your wagon, if Herod flips scum, be a scumtell?

generally, scum like to push wagons on townies but not get on-board. There is less accountability that gay. About a year ago I noticed that scum use FoS's in disproportionate numbers, and I think the reason for that is FoS let them put nergative attention on town players (going for the lynch or the forced claim) without being held responsible for the result.

The best explanation for my wagon (assuming H. is scum) is that actual townies were onboard it, and the scum were trying to push it without being on it.

[Adel]

Well, you're right, he gains both ways, but the post in question still sets up that gain.

The question is would Artem-TOWN gain from the statement?

that is a good question.

@Atrem: what did you hope to gain by making that statement?

[Adel]

The best explanation for my wagon (assuming H. is scum) is that actual townies were onboard it, and the scum were trying to push it without being on it.

Okay, I think I'm following, but how is that dependent on H's flip?

Well if Hero is town, I'm not sure why scum would be puching my wagon, unless it was so that they would not be on Hero's wagon when he flipped.... which would make sense for a (Porkens and/or SpryeX) + (people on my wagon) scumgroup.. I'm flipping back and forth between this and my chart so i'm not really thinking everything through... IU'm just having a regular orgy or typing right now.

[Adel]

If I had a bullet and Hero flips town I'd shoot: Adel
If I had a bullet and Hero flips scum I'd shoot: Adel

WTF!

Talk about a no-win!

H-Scum: Porkens
H-Town: SpryeX

[Adel]

I didn't get done as much as I wanted to, but here is what I have right now.

[Adel]

second try:

[Adel]

If Porkens / Hero was a scumpair, why fake not knowing the hammer?

the built-in WIFOM defense of "scum wouldn't accidentally hammer scum buddy" when in fact I think that a scum buddy of Hero's would conclude that a hammer was inevitable (by Artem?) and get in on the buss at the last moment.

[Adel]

It doesn't, really. But I run on a dumber plane than most of you; Adel is on Hero's wagon and Artem isn't.

in the South people call this "slow-talking" -- getting people to underestimate your intelligence so that you can take advantage of their misconception.

[Adel]

as far as I know, we can only check when the last time was they posted. I hate to duck out, but I have to go now. <3 this exchange.

We were just comming together and starting some good communal analytical scumhunting. If the town can return to that tomorrow, I think that we will win, regardless of who dies tonight.

Focus on what is

objectively

present, identify outliers and information that doesn't make sense, and compare things that stand out to other games in each player's meta.

Other variables to look at: word count, post count to word count ration, average % of each player's post that is made up of quotes.. stufff like that that you can actually quantify. Limit analysis to stufff that happneded

before

the analytical scumhunting started.. that way scum won't be able to hide their behavior. Don't give replacements a free pass. Also look for players who follow other player's votes without mentioning that player much.

[Adel]

Spryx, why did you kill Artem?
What role are you claiming?

[Adel]

I haven't seen Adel this townie in a long time.

lol, for all of the good it is doing me.

@Elmo, no schedule.

[Adel]

@ Troll: the answer to your question is answered by these posts:

relative to how much he mentions others, Elmo stands out for not mentioning Atrem. If we were to lynch Atrem, and found that Atrem were town, I would count this as a strong tell against Elmo.

lol, you are missing a 9. Artem is the person I have mentioned most!

dammit, did I just get the axis wrong from your table? No wonder, it is way past my bedtime, I'll have to fix it tomorrow. -- too tired right now.

[Adel]

Adel, that be largely what Troll thought. Troll was just looking for confirmation as Elmo's response to that made it somewhat ambiguous if Troll's memory serves. Did there be alternate patterns that Adel found worth mentioning given a corrected reading?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

off the top of my head, the only thing that stands out is that I mentioned Tajo far more often than anyone else.

Elmo wasn't talking about Porkens, and I had the most even amount of mentioning other players.

[Adel]

[Adel]

@SpryX: why didn't you vig me?

[Adel]

@ VI are Mini 669
and Mafia 87 really the only two games you've played where you had mafia roles?

[Adel]

Assumptions:
1. SpryeX is not mafia and pulling an incredible gambit
2. Tajo was killed by the mafia group
3. At least one member of the scum group has played with Tajo before (probably more)
4. The mafia group includes 3 players

Living players that stated that they have played with Tajo within the last 6 months: SpyreX, springlullaby, Zorblag, Vi (assuming he meant "tajo" when he wrote "taco"), Adel. I know that Elmo is familiar with Tajo, and so is DGB.

Conclusion: The mafia group includes one (and probably two; possibly three) out of (Adel, Elmo, DGB, springlullaby, SpyreX, Vi, Zorblag) .. which basically only leaves out Porkens and Ecto.

[Adel]

FWIW, check out Elmo in his last game as scum: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8276
he lived until endgame. Read his posts in isolation.

[Adel]

vote: Zorblag

does anyone else see why? (I'n not being cryptic for the sake of being cryptic, I honestly think that another townie will see what I am seeing)

[Adel]

would someone please collect the following data for each player for day 1:

1. word count (outside of quote boxes)
2. word count (including quote boxes)
3. post count

[Adel]

fwiw, here is the sketch i have in my notes for my (now aborted) case against SpyreX from day 1
[quoter]Spryx was paired with me in ___
Spryx mentioned in the "am I good player thread" thread on ____ that " "
Spryx has referenced meta use in a positive way in these games ____ as town.
Spryx has made these other posts mentioning meta____

datamine starting point: search author: Spryx

narrative:

adel places focus opon meta
artem attacks hero on meta grounds
spryx attacks meta as abstract notion
adel challenges atrem wagon... it disollves
spryx attempts to link adel to hero[/quote]
note taht I assumed that Hero was scum, and the Atrem wagon was based upon defending Hero.

I'd skimmed a lot of SpryeX's posts, and I felt that there was plenty there to fill in those blanks once I had enough time to go back and be rigorous about it.

[Adel]

EBWOQ:

fwiw, here is the sketch i have in my notes for my (now aborted) case against SpyreX from day 1

Spryx was paired with me in ___
Spryx mentioned in the "am I good player thread" thread on ____ that " "
Spryx has referenced meta use in a positive way in these games ____ as town.
Spryx has made these other posts mentioning meta____

datamine starting point: search author: Spryx

narrative:

adel places focus opon meta
artem attacks hero on meta grounds
spryx attacks meta as abstract notion
adel challenges atrem wagon... it disollves
spryx attempts to link adel to hero

note taht I assumed that Hero was scum, and the Atrem wagon was based upon defending Hero.

I'd skimmed a lot of SpryeX's posts, and I felt that there was plenty there to fill in those blanks once I had enough time to go back and be rigorous about it.

[Adel]

3. At least one member of the scum group has played with Tajo before (probably more)

Is this necessarily so?

I think so, unless the kill was just to set me up. Otherwise, I fail to see why a scum group made up of players who hadn't played with Tajo before would nk him.

It would be useful to look though the e games that people had played with Tajo, and identify which ones he was an especially strong player in. That would help eliminate the players within the brackets, or at least point to which ones might have been especially motivated to NK him.

[@voting Zorblag:]

does anyone else see why?

Does it have to do with being in your bracketed group of meta-players?[/quote]
nope

[Adel]

I figure that Zorblag is scum with Vi, but I didn't want to just come out and say it.

[Adel]

@Adel, if you think Vi and Troll are scum together, why did you choose to vote Troll over Vi?

Troll has played 5 games as scum, and won 4. He is the more threatening scum player.

[Adel]

Adel has group you two together under a, to me, bizarre conclusion that is "Everyone can be scum but these two." Which, besides being strange and clearing you two for reasons I can't understand, does very little to push the game forward.

I'm taking the angle of "who killed Tajo, and why" -- I did not clear them. I hoped, when I started my post, that fewer players would be in the brackets, and I'm disappointed with the results, but I think it can be taken the next step to see which players here probably have a basis for a high opinion of Tajo's play as town.

I agree that Ecto and Porkens are highly unlikely to be scum together, but no average, at this point, I see the odds of one of them being scum as being about the same as any other random pair of players containing a scum player.

~~~

at this point, spring and DGB are far behind the curve for contributing to the game. Elmo and Troll seem pro-town to many players, but looking at their games as scum I think demonstrates that the reasons why some players here think they are town are about the same as the mistaken townies in thier games as scum.

~~~

Why did you decide to kill last night? Why didn't you decide

not

to kill last night?

[Adel]

@Adel. Then would you be agreeable to vote Vi?

eventually, first (if I were sticking with my more effective albeit more scummy-looking cryptic playstyle this would be easier) I'm interested in drawing out the kind of information that would out Vi's partners, and second, if Vi is town, there are other players slipping through right now (Porkens, DGB, Elmo, Troll, and spring). Third, Vi seems primed to make the kind of wall of word quote battles that won't do much to help the town, and if I were to vote for him OMGUS would be the reply.

[Adel]

It would be useful to look though the e games that people had played with Tajo, and identify which ones he was an especially strong player in. That would help eliminate the players within the brackets, or at least point to which ones might have been especially motivated to NK him.

I'm disappointed with the results, but I think it can be taken the next step to see which players here probably have a basis for a high opinion of Tajo's play as town.

repeated to help the people who appear to have missed them.

[Adel]

See, this pushes it over the top. The fixation on meta is eliminating "common" factors:

1.) Tajo could have been seen as a PR playing close to the vest.

As I see it Tajo would be one of 4 or 5 players to meet that criteria.

2.) Tajo was a high-probability target for a cop investigation due to his play and his kill would waste that information.

As I see it Tajo would be one of 3 or 4 players to meet that criteria.

3.) On the flipside, Tajo had minimal chance for a doctor protect versus higher profile players / watcher protection.

As I see it Tajo would be one of 4 or 5 players to meet that criteria.

So what made Tajo special? Meta may provide that answer.

And thats off the top of my head. There is the WIFOM-factor of you obv-killing him / someone setting him up.

I mean, of course "meta" could have played a role but there are plenty of in-game reasons to go for the kill. So, I think you're just not trying.

the thing that is hanging me up is your claim, and your decision to kill.

Combined with the way Hero was rapidly hammered yesterday before I got going, I'm looking at the following narrative as a possibility:

SpyreX is scum, and was expecting me to push a major case against him. He decided to setup a fake claim of Vig, and started the "if I have a gun" claim yesterday. Once this day started, SpyreX saw that there was a second kill (expected if SpryeX is a SK, unexpected if SpryeX is mafia) and SpryeX claimed.

That lack of attention and skepticism his vig claim has drawn is standing out to me.

[Adel]

As I see it Tajo would be one of 4 or 5 players to meet that criteria.
As I see it Tajo would be one of 3 or 4 players to meet that criteria.
As I see it Tajo would be one of 4 or 5 players to meet that criteria.

So what made Tajo special? Meta may provide that answer.

And thats off the top of my head. There is the WIFOM-factor of you obv-killing him / someone setting him up.

Yes, he wasn't the only one to fit those critera. I never even pretended to think so.

HOWEVER, my statements were all in direct response to this statement by you:

I think so, unless the kill was just to set me up.

Otherwise, I fail to see why a scum group made up of players who hadn't played with Tajo before would nk him.

It would be useful to look though the e games that people had played with Tajo, and identify which ones he was an especially strong player in. That would help eliminate the players within the brackets, or at least point to which ones might have been especially motivated to NK him.

Which wasn't "meta will help narrow it down" it was "without meta, there was no reason to kill him."

and I stand by that. Are you actually saying that "The player or players who killed him have played with him before" is not very highly probably true?

Which I immediately, and with reason, called bullshit on. ASIDE from the obvious fact he was a clear proponent of your lynch - all of the above held true. Which, initially, you disregarded entirely.

I did not "disregard entirely" I'd already worked past that. Catch up, please.

the thing that is hanging me up is your claim, and your decision to kill.

Combined with the way Hero was rapidly hammered yesterday before I got going, I'm looking at the following narrative as a possibility:

SpyreX is scum, and was expecting me to push a major case against him. He decided to setup a fake claim of Vig, and started the "if I have a gun" claim yesterday. Once this day started, SpyreX saw that there was a second kill (expected if SpryeX is a SK, unexpected if SpryeX is mafia) and SpryeX claimed.

That lack of attention and skepticism his vig claim has drawn is standing out to me.

So, lets get this straight:

1.) I am prescient scum that knew there was going to be a second kill AND it was on a target I mentioned clearly in twilight AND, due to the above, it wasn't the kill that I, as scum, actually made risking a CC from the actual vig all to set you up and clear myself.

As mafia, you wouldn't have expected a second kill, and you would have no way of knowing if there was a vig or a sk in the game... but that wouldn't change your gambit. Another member of your team could eventually claim doc.

You were a likely target for a tracker, and announcing your intended kill choice would be a nice way of covering for your team. Your fakeclaim would protect you.

2.) I, as SK, clearly announced my target. I then proceeded to kill that target. I then, unequivocally, both said I wasn't going to kill tonight AND that I wanted no form of protection.

SKs commonly have NK immunity. Using your kill at the direction of the town will probably be better than no killing. Winning as SK is hard, and assuming you have a NK invulnerability, then you just have to prevent your own lynch, you don't have to worry about being NK'd.

3.) I am exactly what I say I am. I clearly laid it out the night before. I then, due to #2 above, said that I wasn't going to kill today to make it absolutely clear that I wasn't compulsive vig / SK thereby damning myself if there IS two kills tomorrow.

But I don't get why you would choose to kill N1 but choose not to kill N2. That isn't the optimal tactic for a vig. It would be better to lay low, and not kill N1, and kill N2 when your kill would be far less swingy and random.

[Adel]

Also, note that Atrem stood a good chance of being investigated by a cop last night, and had a very low chance of being targeted by a doctor.

[Adel]

I smell a serial killer.

what do you think of Atrem being the mafia kill, and Tajo being the SK kill?

How about Atrem being the SK kill, and Tajo being the mafia kill?

[Adel]

Troll's quote from Elmo no be that infomative but Elmo's stance on populartajo be fairly clear (and consistent.) Elmo found populartajo to be playing his town game day one. Elmo was the only one to express this view day one so far as Troll can tell. Korts, Porkens and SpyreX largely no expressed any opinions at all. Adel's final expressed view be one that could be taken to mean Adel found him likely to be town or that him no had a strong opinion (among other things.) Ectomancer brought the lurking up late in the game and lack of content much earlier; Troll thinks that him was giving a mild negative read. Vi's view seems to be neutral but not thrilled with the focus on Herodotus or lack of content. springlullaby puts populartajo in the scummy category (though last on her list) and Troll thinks that Troll was the one who was most vocal about qualms with populartajo's play.

On the whole, populartajo no seems to have been considered strongly town by any other than Elmo and no seems to have been that suspect compared to others to any beyond Troll. If his kill was pushed through by someone who was familiar with the play it would surprise Troll if it was Elmo that was doing it; that makes Elmo's stance too blatant (Troll recognizes this be WIFOM but it just be unnecessary work on Elmo's part.)

look at Newbie 770 the last game where Elmo was mafia. Elmo mentioned HowardRoark's probable alignment exactly once during day 1:

Votes for mee, virtually everything past that is probably best dealt with in the BM section, I guess. HEY LOOK, IT'S THE PRINCIPLE OF MY SIG! Another huge-wall-of-text-quoting-hater joins the ranks He seems townish to me, maybe I'm a little biased since I don't know if he's buddying up to me... I think his response to the whole thing is balanced; true, it leaves the possibility of pushing my lynch later if he feels like it, but I think mafia would be more inclined to "play for keeps" with the IC right now. Def townish, imo.

HowardRoark - a Vanilla Townie - was killed Night 1 by Elmo.

[Adel]

So far, I have
Artem
Adel
as most likely town

and had Elmo next on his list.

Tajo named Elmo as the most likely town, and Atrem ddin't announce that anyone was probable town.

Tajo listed Adel, Zorblag and Spring as most likely scum.

Hero listed Vi, SpyreX and PT as scummy, and Korts, Spring and Zorblag as too quiet.

Atrem listed Porkens or Ecto as his vig target if Hero flipped town, and was suspicious of me.

[Adel]

and I stand by that. Are you actually saying that "The player or players who killed him have played with him before" is not very highly probably true?

As that subset makes up enough of the game that it leaves (assuming 3 scum) a whole whopping one grouping (that involves the least likely scumpair) of course its true.

Its also, at root, worth very little. You've said In 2/3'rds of the remaining game there is probably 1, 2 or 3 scum. Huzzah!

as a starting point, and I've pointed out what the next step is to help narrow down the list.

I did not "disregard entirely" I'd already worked past that. Catch up, please.

Nah, I live on page 2 of the thread. Its hard for me to read and all.

Show me where it was brought up by you directly BEFORE your statement that I bolded.

please reformulate this question into something I understand. I have trouble reading and all.

As mafia, you wouldn't have expected a second kill, and you would have no way of knowing if there was a vig or a sk in the game... but that wouldn't change your gambit. Another member of your team could eventually claim doc.

You were a likely target for a tracker, and announcing your intended kill choice would be a nice way of covering for your team. Your fakeclaim would protect you.

So, we're clear. If I'm mafia the mafia kill was artem and ? -who has kept their mouth shut thus far- killed tajo. They also were totally cool with me claiming vig and not ccing.

yes, which means that there either isn't a vig, or there is a vig that is playing it very cool.

As for not expecting a second kill. Yea, if I was mafia before the fact we had two kills sure that makes sense. Afterwards, however, me claiming one of the kills / not immediately getting cc'd is high-risk / low reward.

you claimed the person that you killed. What you are lying about is your alignment. Why would that force a cc?

SKs commonly have NK immunity. Using your kill at the direction of the town will probably be better than no killing. Winning as SK is hard, and assuming you have a NK invulnerability, then you just have to prevent your own lynch, you don't have to worry about being NK'd.

I'm not killing tonight. No matter how much begging / etc there is. Unless you're NOW going to say I'm a kill-controlled bulletproof SK that should knock it right off the plate.

how is this an optimal tactic for a vig again?

But I don't get why you would choose to kill N1 but choose not to kill N2. That isn't the optimal tactic for a vig. It would be better to lay low, and not kill N1, and kill N2 when your kill would be far less swingy and random.

Because I thought he was scum. Optimal schmoptimal. If I was a single-shot dayvig I'd probably use it day 1 if I had someone I thought was scum.

so your defense is that you are bad at mafia?

Also, note that Atrem stood a good chance of being investigated by a cop last night, and had a very low chance of being targeted by a doctor.

True and if there is a cop and IF they investigated him. My bad. Wont happen tonight, promise.

"bad at mafia" defense part 2?

[Adel]

But I don't get why you would choose to kill N1 but choose not to kill N2. That isn't the optimal tactic for a vig. It would be better to lay low, and not kill N1, and kill N2 when your kill would be far less swingy and random.

Because I thought he was scum. Optimal schmoptimal. If I was a single-shot dayvig I'd probably use it day 1 if I had someone I thought was scum.

Also, note that Atrem stood a good chance of being investigated by a cop last night, and had a very low chance of being targeted by a doctor.

True and if there is a cop and IF they investigated him. My bad. Wont happen tonight, promise.

why Atrem and not Adel or Porkens or Vi or Ecto or Tajo? We'd just lynched a townie? Do you think that mafia are more likely to not have been on Hero's wagon?

[Adel]

However, you are all but saying you think Elmo and Troll are good scum picks but not giving reasons WHY. Meta isn't a reason. What have they done in this game that would lend credence to this?

I was pointing out that the simplistic criteria some of you seem to be using to judge alignment (like "gives reasons" and "seems logical") will not identify Elmo and Troll as scum in games where they are scum.

[Adel]

@Elmo, I missed that. I think that is an important question to ask:

Why was Hero hammered so quickly?

[Adel]

this was the last vote, before the three votes that lynched Hero:

1.) You are both scum and you are, for some reason, connecting yourself subconciously.
2.) You are scum and are laying a groundwork for a later Adel lynch.
3.) You are both masons (which really means you're scum I swear).

1.) I would know better.
2.) My mentions of Adel probably do not support that.
3.) And this is the reason why I asked. Mentioning another player a lot but deciding they are not fos- or vote-worthy is probably a mason tell. Are Adel and I masons? There is no way I'm going to answer that.

But you are role-fishing.

unvote
vote: SpyreX

I'll have to re-check, but I think I'd also be equally inclined to lynch Vi.

unvote, vote: SpyreX

for mafia or Sk, I'm not buying the vig claim, but it is inspired.

[Adel]

I'll leave the list talk alone for now and get to the other business at hand

please reformulate this question into something I understand. I have trouble reading and all.

You've said you didn't "completely disregard" the standard reasons why tajo would be a kill choice and said it HAD to be because of meta.

I then went, no, bullshit it most definitely does not and gave a list of reasons that made sense for why he could be a kill choice regardless.

You're saying you worked past that. I'm saying show how you worked past that, in game, BEFORE I called bullshit because I sure don't remember it happening.

Without engaging in open power role speculation, the only thing that separates Tajo from other players as a NK candidate is 1) setting me up for a lynch and 2) players who had a strong-town meta on him.

yes, which means that there either isn't a vig, or there is a vig that is playing it very cool.

So if there is a vig playing it very cool why in the hell would they as a vig coming out now all but guarantees I'd be scum of somesort? You're going to snipe at me about optimal play and this is alright?

And if there isn't a vig I am either mafia that is counting on that fact OR a BP SK that is hoping there isn't a cop and I get to skate to lylo from claiming at the start of day 2... that then proceeded to get immersed in attacking you (which if you are NOT scum is going to really increase the chance of my getting investigated).

Course, that must mean I am a BP / Investigation Immune / Controlled Killing SK. Right?

you claimed the person that you killed. What you are lying about is your alignment. Why would that force a cc?

Then you are saying both kills are from anti-town sources. I want this clear.

yes, I think that is the most likely scenario, hence my vote on you.

how is this an optimal tactic for a vig again?
so your defense is that you are bad at mafia?
"bad at mafia" defense part 2?

Yep. I am terrible at mafia. So bad, in fact, that I unironically am part of a group called Bad at Mafia.

The hell is this?

If this is what its boiled down to - peace out. I'm done with this game for a bit. Ad hom's are awesome and all but I'm not dealing with it.

My vote isn't moving barring some space miracle of science. Do what you will.

nice cop out. bye bye. Killing N1 and then refusing to kill N2 is not optimal vig play. I think that Hero's rapid lynch + town flip went a long way towards clearing Atrem.

one of my last post from the last day:

If I had a bullet and Hero flips town I'd shoot: Adel
If I had a bullet and Hero flips scum I'd shoot: Adel

WTF!

Talk about a no-win!

H-Scum: Porkens
H-Town: SpryeX

SpryeX went into this day with guns blazing for me. I'm calling gambit.

[Adel]

Tajo mentioned a few players but the focus of his hunting had a singular target: Adel.

fact check this, everyone. To me it doesn't appear to be true.

I can't decide if this is an elaborate setup to get Adel mislynched or sooo obvious we go around the WIFOM horn 3 times.

On the other front of this, Tajo mentioned suspicion specifically of two other players: Zorblag and Spring. The zigzag attack to protect themselves for suspicion and setup an Adel mislynch? I can't decide.

I call this projection. There is an elaborate setup to lynch me, but it is by SpryeX.

[Adel]

ps for SpryeX: you can't both call your group "bad at mafia" and then call me saying "what is this, the 'bad at mafia' defense" an ad hominem attack as soon as I point out the huge gaping holes in your fake claim. You did not address why you thought it was better to vig night one rather than night two. Your defense amounted to "Because I thought he was scum. Optimal schmoptimal. If I was a single-shot dayvig I'd probably use it day 1 if I had someone I thought was scum." and "True and if there is a cop and IF they investigated him. My bad. Wont happen tonight, promise." which amounts to claiming to subscribe to horrible tactics as vig, uses "my bad" as the defense to the same #2 reason you thought Tajo was killed by scum, and doesn't do anything to explain why you thought Atrem was scum after the Hero-town flip.

Please explain why the Hero town-flip made you more confident that Atrem was scum. Please explain why you thought that killing N1 was a good idea, and in more detain then "I thought Atrem was scum."

[Adel]

as a one-shot vig, why would you use your kill the first night possible, instead of waiting until a later night when you would have a better shot of killing accurately?
Why did the Hero town-flip made you more confident that Atrem was scum?

[Adel]

why don't you think that SpryeX can be mafia?

[Adel]

also, one vote does not make for a lynch. SpyreX got called out for trying to run my mislynch, and got nervous. His fakeclaim should be transparent.

[Adel]

I'm not a SK, or a Vig.

Why not a mafia goon with a 1-shot extra NK? or a normal mafia goon expecting me to lynch him anyway so going for the gambit seemed like a good idea (The second kill only made the gambit easier, if there hadn't been a second kill then we'd just assume that the mafia kill didn't go through for what ever reason).

Why aren't you willing to wait for SpyreX to explain why he thought it was a good idea to waste his kill N1? You seemed awfully eager to accept his lame excuse of "I thought Atrem was scum" without giving reasons.

[Adel]

btw

I'm at lynch -2

-- and Porkens (Mr. "I always hammer" and member of "Bad at Mafia") has posted exactly once during this day.

Vi, SpyreX and Ecto are all voting for me, and they were all in on Hero's lynch as well.

This should be raising flags for the rest of y'all.

[Adel]

Has extra 1-shot NK goons been added into "normal roles"?

You were in TDC's game with me, and you've played in enough mini normals to know better. see: http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Normal

A normal game does not have to have any other roles other than Mafia and Townies. If it includes other roles,

they should mostly be considered standard

, such as Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Traitor, Serial Killer.

Other (new or otherwise) roles can be included. However, there should be no more than 1-2 of these

, and they should be based around the usual game mechanics: Killing, Protecting, Investigating, Voting.

Who made the 2nd kill without this extra 1 shot by mafia?

either a SK killed Tajo, or SpryeX is a SK, or the mafia had 2 kills last night, or a vig hasn't claimed.

Why aren't you willing to wait for SpyreX to explain why he thought it was a good idea to waste his kill N1?

Asks the person who expected to be killed N1.

nice non-answer.

Perhaps I am more willing to accept the answer of someone who behaved (or claims to have behaved) in a manner that I myself would. As Vig, I'm on the "always kill" side of things, unless you know you are in or possibly near LYLO. Lynches are mafia-influenced by definition. My Vig kill is not.

even if it was just a 1-shot? Please let SpyreX answer first.

[Adel]

1.) I would know better.
2.) My mentions of Adel probably do not support that.
3.) And this is the reason why I asked. Mentioning another player a lot but deciding they are not fos- or vote-worthy is probably a mason tell. Are Adel and I masons? There is no way I'm going to answer that.

But you are role-fishing.

unvote
vote: SpyreX
I'll have to re-check, but I think I'd also be equally inclined to lynch Vi.

1.) Ohh I wouldn't do that could work, but we'll get to it.
2.) The sheer volume of connect overlaps any positive or negative connontations.
3.) The only town-town scenario where it would make sense to mention another player THAT MUCH is if you were, in fact, masons. Thats not role-fishing as much as common sense.

But, hey, who am I to argue when you setup a "zomg trap sprung" scenario that makes no sense.

Except to do this:

Unvote, Vote Herod

Additionally:

1.) Why are you mentioning Adel so much?
2.) Why was your instinctive response to my bringing this up to try and downplay the numbers like its going to change anything?

I think a full analysis could be useful, but there are issues like nicknames:
For me, add 3 for "PT", 5 for "tajo" and 1 for "Tajo" meaning populartajo. And 6 for "SL" meaning springlullaby. There may be others, but I don't recall them.
Another issue is that we've used pronouns, too.

That paragraph alone has two more "namedrops" than would be necessary with pronouns. If every pronoun I've used or quoted was counted for the player it referenced, I think you'd find at least Porkens, Korts, Artem, and SpyreX would be substantially higher.
Aside from that, a lot of the "namedrops" were either quote tags or within quoted or requoted text -- I've been asked about Adel a lot, including a couple of those tortured paragraphs.

Also, "Troll" should add 2 to Zorblag from me.

Spyrex, I'm guessing you'll want to amend those counts to include more nicknames?

Also, the data set does not include (or includes by some players but not by others) nicknames, as I mentioned in 431 and 434. I've done my own numbers and two others so far;

if SpyreX's original counts were correct

, these updates based on nicknames, prior to SpyreX 427, are also correct:

Considering, since its happened, you've spent a lot of energy trying to downplay how much you've mentioned Adel's name and are voting me now under some kind of rolefishing (which is the only damn explanation of you being both town) instead of, ohh, explaining it yourself maybe this'll spark some interest.

Or, well, get you hung. Thats cool too.

note that analytical scumhunting had begun, Hero voted for SpyreX at 472, and Hero was quickly lynched. SpyreX's vote at 476 was OMGUS, and placed Hero at lynch -1.

I'm calling a SpyreX + 2 out of (Porkens + Vi + Ecto) scumgroup. I'm willing to vote for any of the three.

Also, you'll notice I've never said both of you are scum. Thats because I find Porkens/Ecto the lowest probability scum pairing in the game.

why exactly are they the lowest probability pairing for you? I didn't really notice this earlier because it was similar to what I was thinking, but now I notice that you didn't explain how you reached this conclusion, and you've clearly disagreed with the process that I used to reach a similar conclusion (perhaps because you

knew

that I was wrong about why the mafia killed?)

~~~

Yes, this means that I'm giving Troll and Elmo a pass from my earlier fear that their "logical as scum" playstyle is letting them slip through...

[Adel]

also note that Atrem showed a willingness to play along and cooperate with me. That is a definite motivation for scum to kill him!

[Adel]

If I had a bullet and Hero flips town I'd shoot: Porkens or Ecto
If I had a bullet and Hero flips scum I'd shoot: Korts

... just saying.

[Adel]

Time for some thinking out loud:

If I had a bullet and Hero flips town I'd shoot: Porkens or Ecto
If I had a bullet and Hero flips scum I'd shoot: Korts

Are you ready for assumation bullet time attack? I sure am!

So, I'm operating under the premise that if they are scummy enough to shoot, he'd damn well roleblock them.

Additionally, I have to operate under the premise that we're using some kind of NaR for roles.

So, from this: barring an actual SK or something nutso, Porkens/Ecto could NOT have performed the kill (whichever was targeted, but thats moot).

Thus, we put on our scum hat: you've got to send in a night kill. The mod, hopefully, has said you have to specify WHO is sending the kill (so the roleblocking is actually helpful). You don't necessarily know WHY, but you have to assume the chance of the naughty town roles (Tracker, Roleblocker, etc).

At this point, you'd probably want to send someone to perform the kill that was NOT going to draw said roles. An under the radar.

Both Porkens AND Ecto drew -some- flak throughout the day (from each other, oddly enough as well as others). The only ones, personally, I could see being higher profile would be: Adel & Myself (maaybe Elmo).

So, this makes the gut shriek the kill was performed by one of the lower profile players. Namely the grouping of Zorblag, Korts(DGB), Vi, Spring.

this post makes perfect sense to me as being written by a mafia-aligned SpyreX.

[Adel]

It wouldn't be bad to hear from him, but this is one of those times when I wouldn't mind an untimely hammer.

It still feels like there are only a few people playing this game. We need more player variety ITT.

unvote, vote: Vi

[Adel]

I'm shocked.

[Adel]

I'm getting quicklynched by scum.

[Adel]

why are you voting for me?

why do you believe SpryeX's claim?

why do you think it is improbable that I'm being setup for a mislynch?

Did you really read all of the posts in this thread, since your last post, before your vote on me? Did you really think about all of those exchanges?

[Adel]

ah, I forgot that you were in Mini 712 with him -- I was hoping that he would bring up meta as a defense, it is nice of you to do it for him. Protip: meta enables fakeclaims. Watch for it, and be skeptical of it.

[Adel]

I don't know what y'all expect from me. I've danced for you. My words committed to this day roughly equal the words typed by everyone else combined. I've asked a ton of questions, haven't gotten answers, and I'm still in danger of getting quickly lynched.

I'm at lynch -2, with two threatening to vote for me.

The shitty thing about SpryeX's claim, regardless of if I am right or if I am wrong, is that there is going to be a committed group of other players willing and motivated to attack me.

I'm currently voting for Vi. I am willing to vote for SpryeX or Porken or Ecto.


I lost two potential allies last night, but four out of the five players who voted for me are still alive.

wagon analysis:
Atrem (town) wagon: Hero,

SpryeX

, spring, Korts,

Porkens

(then I called bullshit, and destroyed the wagon)
Hero (town) wagon: Elmo, Tajo, Vi, Adel, Ecto,

SpryeX

,

Porkens

(then Hero called me confirmed town after he was hammered)
Adel (town wagon): Vi,

SpryeX

, Ecto,

Porkens

note that Porkens mentions SpryeX a lot, but SpryeX doesn't mention Porkens much.

Why isn't SpryeX suspicious of Porkens?

how about a deathmatch between Porkens and I?

One of us gets lynched, and everyone has to pick a wagon.

[Adel]

@Spyrex: do you plan on posting ever again? What is it with people being so susceptible.

do you think that appeal to emotion was legitimate? Storming off like that doesn't meet my expectation for townie behavior.

Are you trying to make a statement of some sort with you play? Would by any chance the problematic motivating your moves in this game be something along the line of "reputation, a demonstration of its influence on people's judgment in mafia game"?

no. I only play to win.

Adel, what are you doing? I mean this neutrally.

attempting to dodge a lynch. Yesterday ended long before I expected it A tarbaby defense. Scum attack me, and I lynch them.

[Adel]

EBWOP:

Adel, what are you doing? I mean this neutrally.

attempting to dodge a lynch. Yesterday ended long before I expected it to, and now there are four players gunning for me. I'm pulling what I consider to be a tarbaby defense. Scum attack me, and I lynch them. Notice how SpryeX's claim began to break down under questioning, and then he "quit" -- read my posts and see if I actually posted anything that makes sense as a motivation for an actual townie posting:

So, if you are scum, like I think you are.. sure, that's part of self-preservation. However, regardless: get fucked. Saying that I am bad at the game or variations of "learn to read" is the quickest way to suck all the fun out of it.

Although, I'll give you this. I was lying about something. I'm only a 1-shot vidge. Thats why I'm not shooting tonight - or ever again. I was hoping to draw a kill and use my ability as best as I could. You can meta that too if you want. There's multiple references to it too in this game.

So, lynch one of us. I dont care. If you lynch me tomorrow when Adel goes "ohh gee my left-field theories that I used to try and push this lynch were wrong" you'll get lynched. 1-1 is fine.

The only reason I'm not replacing out is, well, I dont replace out. Maybe some time to cool my jets will help but as it sits I could care less right now.

[Adel]

I'm especially interested in getting an answer to this:

Also, you'll notice I've never said both of you are scum. Thats because I find Porkens/Ecto the lowest probability scum pairing in the game.

why exactly are they the lowest probability pairing for you? I didn't really notice this earlier because it was similar to what I was thinking, but now I notice that you didn't explain how you reached this conclusion, and you've clearly disagreed with the process that I used to reach a similar conclusion (perhaps because you

knew

that I was wrong about why the mafia killed?)

[Adel]

as a one-shot vig, why would you use your kill the first night possible, instead of waiting until a later night when you would have a better shot of killing accurately?
Why did the Hero town-flip made you more confident that Atrem was scum?

I thought Artem was scum. I eliminated that from my set of suspicions allowing me to look at the game more openly instead of fighting with him AGAIN today. Further, it allowed me to try (and fail) to setup my own kill tonight as a VT protecting other power roles (which I have to assume exist because 1 shot vig + rb doth not a full townset make).

The only time I wouldn't shoot n1 if I had the ability to kill was if I had no scum reads. That wasn't the case. So I shot.

I legitimately think that killing N1 is almost always a bad idea, especially if you only have one shot... Scum reads based solely upon day 1 simply aren't accurate to rely upon, for anyone.

After the Hero flip, I walked out of day 1 thinking that Atrem was one of the most townie players. Why did you think he was scum? Why did you have enough confidence in him being scum that you decided to use your only bullet on him?

Why didn't you consider waiting for another night?

[Adel]

As of the graph, I mentioned Porkens 21 times. The most I mentioned was at 31 and the least was Zorblag at 4. Porkens lies right in the "active median" for me (average for the group of active players).

I mis read the chart, and read 8 (the number of times you mentioned spring) instead of 21 (the number of times you mentioned Porkens).

1.) Of the three options for my alignment Adel opts to disregard the one where I am town doing exactly what I am saying I did in favor of more far-fatched scum machinations where I started setting up an Adel mislynch yesterday in twilight and was quick enough on the ball to adjust (if mafia) today to make it work. Which is fine but:

Remember, I'm also bad at mafia. Which is it?

I don't think that you are bad at mafia, which is why I have trouble accepting that you would use your 1-shot vig on Atrem following a Hero-town flip.

2.) Adel has been sliding along under the guise of an in-depth meta analysis on all the players. Yet (and keep in mind I think meta is retarded but) when it comes to light that what I've done with this matches my "meta" that meta is to be disregarded because meta can be manipulated? Really?

compare your posts in that game with your posts in this game. In that game, during day 1, you seemed a lot less invested than in this game, and your posts were much shorter on average. Your posting behavior (expressed as words/post) in that game does not align with your posting behavior in this game.

4.) Adel has laid out this elaborate case on why I am scum. Now, that was dropped for Vi but then has been now dropped in favor of an Adel / Porkens voteoff?

The hell does that work? I mean, you've spent the most time saying how I'm scum / blah blah and how I've setup mastergambit(TM) to get you mislynched AND it goes without question that my vote isn't moving.

With all this, why in the hell would you opt for a third person instead of just letting the wagons compete on us?

the danger of you being town. I don't tunnel. I'm taking the case against you to it's logical conclusion, especially as you continue to make points that don't add up, and so long as you continue to change your story, and fail to answer my questions. In the meantime, I'm attempting to identify who your partners are.

Is it because, as is obvious from the answers others are giving, your theories are wack and you know that in a me/you today you'd get lynched thereby all but clearing me?

if I get lynched, and you are town, then it is probably game over for the town.

Whereas Porkens has been lurkin' it up a bit much and there is a chance you could win that and force this issue tomorrow at lylo?

Why aren't you suspicious of Porkens again? What logic lead you to conclude that Him and Ecto can't be town together?

If you started a case on me why didn't you pick up and finish your "meta" analysis trap sprung about my talk about meta? Because it didn't fit in?

no, I data dumped. In our game together as partners in Polygamist, I did a deep meta on FL, and used my meta knowledge of Sklitzer and Shy Guy (Guardian) to ensure our victory -- which you've given me props for on your wiki page an in the "are you a good player" thread.

My vote isn't moving. This isn't even for Adel to respond to - I forgot the classic blunder of "convincing scum they are scum."

does this explain why you aren't answering my questions?

But, seriously, if one of us isn't lynched today I am not going to feel bad if we lose. The gauntlet is thrown.

please play to win.

[Adel]

@ SpyreX: if you are town, why do you think the mafia failed to jump all over your failings like I have?

[Adel]

food for thought:

Too Townie, Too Useful, Too Nice (Close enough) what's the next falsehood case gonna be?

Niceness is actually something of a scumtell. Scum are more likely to worry about needlessly antagonising people.

/hijack

source: title fairy thread in Site Ideas: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... start=1308

[Adel]

in my defense:
1. I stopped the bullshit wagon on Atrem before he was forced to claim. That should've also prevented him from being NK'd
2. Hero cleared me with his dying breath.
3. There are scummier people than me slipping through.

[Adel]

@Elmo: I'm not sure. Challenge me on points I've made that don't make sense to you. Encourage SpryeX to answer my questions.

Stick to the basics: Try to get a more even level of participation out of players. Two competing wagons is more informative than one.

[Adel]

get over yourself.

God damn your ego knows no bounds.

Remember when I told you to get fucked? Yea, that was good times. I'll remember it fondly.

lol. do you really want to start replying in-kind to you?



@DGB: SpyreX has already claimed. It is always worth poking a claim to see if it holds up.

[Adel]

I mis read the chart, and read 8 (the number of times you mentioned spring) instead of 21 (the number of times you mentioned Porkens).

And noticed it before or after I brought it up? Keep on keepin on I guess.

note that I am pounding out posts rather quickly. Errors are bound to creep in. It was an honest mistake.

I don't think that you are bad at mafia, which is why I have trouble accepting that you would use your 1-shot vig on Atrem following a Hero-town flip.

Gee that meshes up well with what was said before. Allow me to explain again:

I thought Artem was scum. Before I noticed how bad Hero was fellating you yesterday I was on Artem. I'm not sure what is so mystical considering I said clear out I was shooting Artem in twilight.

I don't see why claiming that re-enforces your claim. Breadcrumbing your fakeclaim day 1 is good scum play, and your breadcrumb didn't actually tie you to your claim. As scum, no down side.

If you have trouble accepting that people are going to play roles different and I see enough gain in shooting someone I think is scum / trying to draw a NK for it early game versus waiting: get over yourself.

as a 1-shot vig, shooting night 1 is sub-optimal to waiting until a later night. This is actually one of the few clear cases where one style of play is inferior. It isn't a matter of "style" -- simply a matter of accuracy and effectiveness.

compare your posts in that game with your posts in this game. In that game, during day 1, you seemed a lot less invested than in this game, and your posts were much shorter on average. Your posting behavior (expressed as words/post) in that game does not align with your posting behavior in this game.

I'm not talking about the posts. I'm talking about the actions.

way to go, directly ignoring what I typed again. Yes, you were a 1-shot vig in that game, and you shot N1. Looking at another metric of behavior, beyond the simplistic action, your style of play doesn't match like I would expect it to if you had the same role.

But, yes, comparing post quality when a mafia lept all over himself to get hung is a fair comparison.

And this has nothing to do with the fact you say "Yes, it matches his meta but disregard that lynch hoo"

You've claimed that you thought Atrem was scum making obvious mistakes, and Hero was lynched hella fast, so I do think it might be a fair basis of comparison.

the danger of you being town. I don't tunnel. I'm taking the case against you to it's logical conclusion, especially as you continue to make points that don't add up, and so long as you continue to change your story, and fail to answer my questions. In the meantime, I'm attempting to identify who your partners are.

Hurf hurf. What doesn't add up? I'm talking in the normal sense not the "I'm bad at mafia because I dont play like you' sense. As for changing my story ASIDE from laying out I was 1-shot what have I changed?

isn't that enough? Your claim that you wanted to draw the NK doesn't explain why you changed your claim without the pressure of votes.

Also, I love "You may be town but I'm looking for your partners"

mis-quote.

if I get lynched, and you are town, then it is probably game over for the town.

That works both ways. I swear to God if I get lynched and they don't powerlynch you I will probably explode.

Why aren't you suspicious of Porkens again? What logic lead you to conclude that Him and Ecto can't be town together?

... The hell about them being town together? I do NOT think they are scum together because of Porkens reaction to Ecto's problems day 1. Too high risk / low reward. Thats the big reason why I'm not "suspicious" of Porkens.

why couldn't that be scum distancing?


Why aren't you suspicious of Porkens? (4th try?)

The hell does that matter though? I've got one vote. Its on you. Any opinions I have on other players can sit until this is dealt with.

so you want me lynched before any other players are looked into?

especially Porkens

no, I data dumped. In our game together as partners in Polygamist, I did a deep meta on FL, and used my meta knowledge of Sklitzer and Shy Guy (Guardian) to ensure our victory -- which you've given me props for on your wiki page an in the "are you a good player" thread.

Lets look at these:

I know, somehow, I was instrumental to the town actually pulling this out. However, I'm still not sure what I did. The mess around the hammer hurt my head - how do you not lynch someone who says they are scum? However, my partner was liquid awesome. A lot of fun all the way through. I think, if I ever do a Poly, I am going to push AGAINST the massclaim early even harder.

Adel - Adel was my partner in one of my first games and I really like the play. Aggressive without being tunneled. Its good stuff.

I'm pretty sure (as I said it) that the part I was talking about was after I posted some vote stuff and you called Nameless out as scum. Not anything to do with meta.

*As an aside: I love the fact you went to my wiki and started some hunt about me lying about meta when on my wiki it says my feelings about meta. Selective analysis hooo!

wiki pages are primarily used for bragging and player meta creation. You've built a meta that states that you "play for fun" rather than "playing to win" which is used to excuse you sub-optimal play, and you've built a meta of hating meta (albeit full of exceptions exceptions weasel words) so that you can ignore that part of play. Clever.

does this explain why you aren't answering my questions?

What other questions do you have? Go ahead and line em up.

read my freaking posts, and look for question marks.

please play to win.

OHH GOD MY THINKING YOU ARE SCUM MEANS I AM NO LONGER PLAYING TO WIN ALAS I AM DEFEATED

God damn your ego knows no bounds.

stay classy.

@SpyreX: if you are town, why do you think the mafia failed to jump all over your failings like I have?

The honest answer? The mafia (i.e. your partners) know that you're not going to get me lynched on space-voodoo theories and want nothing to do with tying themselves to you in this boat that, one way or another, is going down.

wouldn't that same behavior be better explained if they aren't my partners and are just sitting back and enjoying a townie fight?

The me-to-you answer: My "failings"? Remember when I told you to get fucked? Yea, that was good times. I'll remember it fondly.

if you are town, your failings include:
1. using your one shot N1
2. claiming without pressure
3. changing your claim without pressure
those should be enough reason for any objective player to express skepticism. Those failings combined with your attack on me (with re-enforcements!) is why I counter attacked.

[Adel]

SpyreX definitely pre-declared he would be shooting Artem that night. It seems almost certain he really shot Artem.

I agree

Artem is a terrible kill for the mafia.

I don't agree with this. He was a power role, and he was suspicious of certain players, and his wagon day 1 got busted. He wasn't on the Hero wagon.

Tajo is a reasonable if odd kill for the mafia. It seems highly likely the mafia didn't shoot Artem.

note how my attempt to try to look into that oddness got shouted down. We don't know how he was killed-- it might not be from a directed kill. RB's are often used to "balance" out a high number of power roles.

So SpyreX is either a SK or a 1-shot vig. If he's a SK, claiming 1-shot vig unforced is terrible.

I agree. It is more horrible than a 1-shot vig using his shot N1, but I see them as being in the same spectrum. The Sk always has a low probability of winning, except for the occasional investigation immune & BP SK that occasionally is found in games.

He's giving up any more kills, which are a SKs primary weapon, and he's proven a killing ability, which means he'll be instakilled any time we have three dead mafia.

true... which is why I started to favor the mafia hypothesis over the SK hypothesis.

Pound for pound, the evidence overwhelmingly indicates SpyreX telling the truth, and in none of the edge cases where he's lying is lynching him a particularly good idea, as far as I can see. I haven't fully digested your analysis, but I think I get most of it, and while in vacuum I might go for it, I don't see how it can possible overrule the above.

I cannot help but wonder at the sudden level of sheer noise in this thread.

where is the noise coming from? .. better question, what points are being drowned out?

[Adel]

Yes DGB and I copied that from Adel (who is soo town).

@Adel:

I'll lay off if you do. Deal?

not yet. You've claimed, so I'm going to continue poking you until I am convinced of your alignment.

[Adel]

Adel, vig is a testable claim.

right, testable by directing his kill.

1-shot vig is an untestable claim.

which is Fakeclaiming vig is bad precisely because mafia don't have that ability. So I seriously doubt he would fake breadcrumb vig killing Artem and then it just so happened that Artem got shot that night.

unless the mafia feared a tracker... and since there was a RB I'm sure they were told that they had to specifically state which of their members had to send in the kill.

Claiming without pressure is fine here, it clears him from scrutiny and gets as info public early. The effect of clearing an extra townie night 1 and maybe killing a scumbag (from his point of view) is a decent play. It's not what I'd do, but it's not clearly inferior.

seriously? -- it doesn't yield a cleared townie! Worse case: he was tracked to his target (who wouldn't be watched) and if he were tracked

then

he would be "confirmed".

And he didn't change his claim, he claimed "vig" and deliberately left it ambiguous whether he was limited or not; I suspected he was 1-shot at the time. I think suspecting Artem was wrong, but I can 100% believe that he would genuinely feel Artem was scummy, and I said as much yesterday; these OMGUS fights have a life of their own.

I'm sorry, but his play makes better sense to me as a scum gambit (inspired!) than as vig play (thanks for bringing us closer to lylo)

[Adel]

If the mafia killed Artem, then a Vig/SK killed Tajo. If it's a vig, I think it's fairly obvious they should be counter-claiming right now considering the likely numbers. If it's a SK, then SpyreX is doomed because the SK will kill again tonight and we'll lynch him for it.

that actually does make it testable. I stand corrected.

[Adel]

@SpyreX you killed a townie in that game as well.

Moving forward, will you at least accept that killing N1 is poor play? Reducing the number of townies left (which will happen at least 70% of the time) just does not help the town win.

[Adel]

Ohh yea if there is a full vig that didn't shoot that shoots tonight / an SK that was blocked or what have you I know I'm full well boned.

However, lynching Adel and having a scum flip SHOULD help some.

especially since when I flip town you aren't going to be held accountable so long as there is only 1 kill tonight.

[Adel]

wiki pages are primarily used for bragging and player meta creation. You've built a meta that states that you "play for fun" rather than "playing to win" which is used to excuse you sub-optimal play, and you've built a meta of hating meta (albeit full of exceptions exceptions weasel words) so that you can ignore that part of play. Clever.

..what? Where/how/what the hell do you get that I dont "play to win" from?

BaM was founded on Tuesday, April 14th by Mafia players Porkens and SpyreX. The BaM team is dedicated to representing a mature, respectful, and enjoyable way to play the game.

playing to win is not inherently respectful (you neglect the exploitation of stress and psychological tells) or enjoyable (other than the feeling you get from winning, in the meantime it is too much hard work)

for all these exceptions: go for it. Show em. Show that I am secretly all about the meta and this is all an elaborate ruse.

I guess I can be a little more clear with my distaste of gut and meta.

Of course I use them. Everyone does when they play to some level. However, my distaste is when the analysis process stops at this point. I've had gut reads and then went back and looked and, not surprisingly, found other points of play to 'back' my gut read.

The same goes for meta - if someone is playing differently I'll look and see what the difference is and how its affecting the game.

Meta defenses are blah all the time as far as I can tell.

MD thread: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 12#1403012

For bonus points: show how this has anything to do with anything at hand.

you state that meta defenses are invalid.

[Adel]

For bonus points: show how this has anything to do with anything at hand.

you state that meta defenses (like "I've done the same action in a previous game") are invalid, but looking for differences between games is something to do.

You've overstated your actual objection to metas in this game (always bad, all of the time) used your meta to excuse your objection to all metas.

[Adel]

"retarded" is an inherently disrespectful term. Attaching that word to techniques I believe in is an ad ad hominem attack you've made several times now. Telling me to go get fucked is not respectful.

Asking if your defense amounted to "bad at mafia" when you started a group

with that very name

is not an ad hominem.

context:

But I don't get why you would choose to kill N1 but choose not to kill N2. That isn't the optimal tactic for a vig. It would be better to lay low, and not kill N1, and kill N2 when your kill would be far less swingy and random.

Because I thought he was scum.

Optimal schmoptimal.

If I was a single-shot dayvig I'd probably use it day 1 if I had someone I thought was scum.

so your defense is that you are bad at mafia?

Also, note that Atrem stood a good chance of being investigated by a cop last night, and had a very low chance of being targeted by a doctor.

True

and if there is a cop and IF they investigated him.

My bad.

Wont happen tonight, promise.

"bad at mafia" defense part 2?

The decent into incivility was all your own.

I am not a civil player much of the time, but I do not claim to be.

[Adel]

Troll has been trying to figure out what Adel be up to today. Troll thinks that the idea that both Adel and SpyreX be town be somewhat plausible but Adel's poking at Troll has been done in a way that no be particularly reassuring. Troll no be the sort to take much offense when others find problems with Troll's play but here be some of what has Troll on edge.

Adel never did get around to giving the reasons that Vi and Troll were likely to be mafia together but it was implied that voting patterns were at least part of it by:

[@voting Zorblag:]

does anyone else see why?

Does it have to do with the vote count analysis and being in your bracketed group of meta-players?

[@voting Zorblag:]

does anyone else see why?

Does it have to do with being in your bracketed group of meta-players?

nope

Troll altered the quote tags on the second one just a bit to make it easier to work with but the omission be clear. Troll would very much like to see the case that Adel to verify that it existed at the very least and check for strength. Troll realizes that Adel no be pushing it now but a potential argument could be made Troll thinks.

it wasn't an especially strong case. You stayed off of all strong wagon day 1, and you and him voted each other early in the game, which I generally take as a possible indication of scum distancing. Vi was so eager to mention your name day 1, I wanted to judge his reaction (and yours) by being named as a group together. Sadly, the signal:noise ratio (much of it coming from me as I attempt to defend myself) drowned out that whole approach.

@Adel, if you think Vi and Troll are scum together, why did you choose to vote Troll over Vi?

Troll has played 5 games as scum, and won 4. He is the more threatening scum player.

That be true. Troll also has yet to lose a game as town (Troll has three wins and two abandonded games) which Troll be fairly certain that Adel knows as well. Adel does be voting for Troll at the time but Troll's record indicates that Troll be a dangerous mafia member or a helpful town member and without details for the case on Troll this statement feels like it be a substitution for a case.

Of course, really Troll's record be much better than Troll's skill at for both teams and it be due in largest part to the other teams playing poorly rather than anything exceptional on Troll's part. It be a pretty tiny sample which Adel knows; it be all him had to work with and Vi's record as scum be even smaller but that no makes it a strong indicator of anything.[/quote]
you are a better writer than he is. You have a natural advantage. Plus, I think that you are either a shaft.ed or Xyl alt, or a real life friend of one of them. I expect you to be a superior player to Vi.

Elmo and Troll seem pro-town to many players, but looking at their games as scum I think demonstrates that the reasons why some players here think they are town are about the same as the mistaken townies in thier games as scum.

The grouping with Elmo here be interesting. Many have said that them think that Elmo be town, Troll no thinks that Troll actually looks pro-town to that many at this time (or when the statement was made.) Again, Troll recognizes that Adel was still voting for Troll when this was said and that him had a reason to emphasize the reasons not to trust Troll but this one seems invented as applied to Troll. Perhaps Troll was wrong and others did think that Troll was likely to be town but the only one Troll particularly remembers saying that was Artem (and Troll complained about the reasons him gave with Troll's last post on day one.)

Troll supposes that the trouble Troll has here be that Adel be putting on supports to a case against Troll without presenting the case itself and the supports being given no be so clear cut as them being presented as. Again, it would help Troll much if Troll knew why Adel thought Vi and Troll were likely scum partners so Troll could see the foundation for this other stuff. Without that it seems that Adel be trying to make Troll look like dangerous scum based on exaggerations of things that have happened in other games.

you are a careful poster, and you've had relatively little interaction with other players. I need mroe to work with to get an handle on determining your alignment.

Beyond this, Troll did take a look at NG 770 (the one where Elmo said that Howard Roark's play was pro-town) to see how applicable it be. There Elmo made the statement very early in the game before Howard Roark had said much at all. As the day continued there was very little suspicion of Howard Roark by other players and Elmo's stated reason for killing him was that him was the strongest player that was unlikely to be protected by the doc. In this game Elmo was indicating that populartajo was town towards the end of the day, others had expressed suspicion of him and Troll feels that him played a much less helpful game here than Howard Roark did in the other game. Troll still feels that it be unlikely that Elmo would have the primary one who pushed for a populartajo kill last night. Mind you, Troll no be saying that Elmo no could be in the mafia because of this; just that populartajo's dying no raises his chances of being scum in Troll's opinion.

thank you very much for taking the time to follow up on that. I think that town success depends upon people doing research and finding successful ways to collaborate and process information without trusting each other.

[Adel]

Adel, why would you vote Spyrex before Porkens?

This.

@DGB: SpyreX has already claimed. It is always worth poking a claim to see if it holds up.

[Adel]

1.) If I, in fact, was lying about my feelings towards meta - what was the scum motivation and scum gain considering who has died?

as scum with an especially high opinion of me, I expect that you (as scum) wanted to discredit me and my approach starting with page 1, and then after hero named me as town, and you couldn't count of me not having doctor protection.

I think one of your other scum buddies (Ecto?) named me as their target, "if" they had a gun.

2.) If you, in fact, are town why did you not notice/care/say anything about how often you were mentioned by Herod contextually?

day 1 was cut short by you and porkens rapidly lynching hero without even giving hero a chance to claim.

[Adel]

as scum with an especially high opinion of me, I expect that you (as scum) wanted to discredit me and my approach starting with page 1, and then after hero named me as town, and you couldn't count of me not having doctor protection.

I think one of your other scum buddies (Ecto?) named me as their target, "if" they had a gun.

If that is the case then any other game I have said meta is retarded is a buildup to pull this maneuver here?

you generally say stuff like "Meta is, as its normally used, retarded. Meta can not and should not be a defense for scummy playstyles - why encourage it? Instead, kill them without remorse until they shape up. Meta can, and isn't, used as 'icing' on a case - if you see a set of scummy actions, and due to playing with them or other play see the same set of results - say so. Otherwise, drop it. I hate having meta arguments every damn game."

not that all meta is retared.

Where have you said that all meta is retarded?

day 1 was cut short by you and porkens rapidly lynching hero without even giving hero a chance to claim.

If

I

noticed it as a third party to the business how did you, who was being referenced, not notice it beforehand?

If someone had mentioned me damn near 100 times and we had no connection and I was town you can be sure I would have said SOMETHING about it.

noticing something, and picking the right time to comment on it are two separate tests of mafia proficiency.

[Adel]

it wasn't an especially strong case. You stayed off of all strong wagon day 1, and you and him voted each other early in the game, which I generally take as a possible indication of scum distancing. Vi was so eager to mention your name day 1, I wanted to judge his reaction (and yours) by being named as a group together. Sadly, the signal:noise ratio (much of it coming from me as I attempt to defend myself) drowned out that whole approach.

also, I didn't want to directly vote for him due to the OMGUS drama that would probably follow. He is another player that has been gunning for me all game. I can't tell if he is just a giant killer, or if his arguments are sincere. I voted him as soon as I saw a contradiction clear enough to base a vote upon.... and then the thread got hella noisy.

[Adel]

you usually us "meta is retarded" to reject the use of meta to excuse scummy behavior. I use meta to control for variables in a specific player's play to help identify when they actually are scum. Can't you see the difference?

[Adel]

]Then let's take the meta out and say that Adel hasn't demonstrated that what he's put forth in response to D1 events has been much more than quackery.

could all players please answer the following questions:

1. what games (with links) have you finished in the last 6 months?

this question makes it easier for other players to do meta checks on other players.

2. what are your on-going games?

this helps us track games as they finish for better apples to apples comparisons late in this game after some of those other games finish.

3. what is your personal definition of lurking?

active townies often get other active townies lynched. it really helps the town win if there is a equal level of player activity, and I thought getting a consensus definition of lurking out would help. It also was a basic test of mafia awareness, to see how deep each player's understanding of mafia actually is.

4. of the players in this game, which players have you played with in the last six months?

helps identify who

should

have an opinion of other player's play.

5. what other names do you play mafia under here?

for some players this will provide a baseline for what a player's reaction will be when asked something they don't want to answer.

6. what other sites have you played at within the last six months?

helps a person build a full meta.

[Adel]

I don't have a clue. During day 1 I was mostly interested in generating information for later analysis, and so far this day I've been pre-occupied with self-defense and examining SpryeX claim, and trying to get others to jump on a SpyreX wagon.

[Adel]

Oh very well, one more before I get on the plane.

@Porkens:
-For two posts in a row, you've basically echoed what SpyreX said towards me. I think you're being hypocritical here when you say I don't do anything on my own.

Which part of SpyreX's posts did I echo with this (the ONLY think I said about you in my last real post):

Artem:

, if you declair that you have no intention of lynching someone you're voting for...maybe I'm missing the point? What good do your bandwagons tdo if you don't intend for them to end in lynches?

I think you kinda missed the point with this question anyway, but that's fine.

Oh what the hell;

Unvote. Vote: Artem

(L-2?)

See y'all in a few more hours.

why did Porkens warn of lynch -2 here,

[Adel]

to help the rest of you get more out of your re-read: print this out. Have it next to you while you reread. Look for voting behavior, attention and inattention that doesn't seem to fit. Expect players who know each other to mention each other more often that players who do not.

could all players please answer the following questions:

1. what games (with links) have you finished in the last 6 months?
2. what are your on-going games?
3. what is your personal definition of lurking?
4. of the players in this game, which players have you played with in the last six months?
5. what other names do you play mafia under here?
6. what other sites have you played at within the last six months?

in chronological order:

I REFUSE TO BE A PART OF THIS SUREFIRE ATTEMPT TO SUCKLE ALL THE INFORMATION NECESSARY TO SUBJUGATE US WITH YOUR DARKNESS

Or.

1.)
Open 122: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 26&start=0
Mini 741: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 61&start=0
Mini 702: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... start=1250
Mini 758: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=475
Mini 739: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=875
Mini 712: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=725
Newbie 723: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=250
You can also check my wiki if there is others I've missed. I haven't updated it in a while, but.

2.)
Mini 706 (dead): http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 54&start=0
Wheel of Time Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... start=1300
Lynch All Lurkers Mafia (dead): http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 46&start=0
Street Fighter 4 Mafia: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 48&start=0

3.) There's two kinds of lurking that worry me. The simple "I can't remember you are in the game" litmus test for actually not playing the game (that once is realized normally becomes "You have to get lynched because you are lurking so badly I can't remember you are in the game.") and the more insidious content-lurking. Lots of posts, lots of words... but not a lot of meaning.

4.) Spring, Ecto, Porkens, Vi(ish).
Zorblag(ish), tajo, &flay in ongoings.
Ish means that one of us replaced into the game after the other was dead. So.

5.) None.

6.) Epicmafia doesn't really count as mafia, but sure.

1: I think I did this last game we were in. Seriously too tedious for me to go through again. I haven't played in 2 months now.

2: This one

3: People who pop in every 4 days with 1 liners.

4: Adel, Springlullaby, Zorblag, spyrex. I think.

5: none

6: none

1.

Newbie 716 (http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10068)
Open 123 (http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10636)
Mini 743 (http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10488)
Mini 727 (http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10182)

There are others, but these are the most noteworthy.

2. This is the only game in which I'm alive right now.

3. When I feel that somebody's keeping up with the game, but purposefully refusing to provide content, I'd call them lurking.

4. Ecto, Spring, Hero, Tajo

5. None

6. None

1. From the top of my head, Hack Poetry Mini Normal; Killing Verses Mini Theme; Town of Merrin Mini Normal; Freelancer Large Theme.
2. Chosen Mini Theme; Beards Mini Normal; And Then There were None Mini Theme; DHDSM.
3. People who don't post.
4. In the last six months? Ectomancer and poptajo(ongoing) I think.
5. Nyballosulgniirkps
6. No comment.

1 and 2. It be easiest to look on Troll's wiki. It has the games broken down by current, finished as town and finished as scum. It covers slighty over 6 months but not by so much as to be bothersome Troll thinks.

3. Like a couple others Troll would break lurking into a couple categories. There be lurking by not posting for long stretches and active lurking which be anything where the player be posting but not making a noticeable effort to find scum. Troll answering these questions would probably count as active lurking if Troll made a pattern of this sort of thing and no contributed in other ways. Adel asking for the information be less likely to.

4. Troll thinks it just be populartajo. Spyrex did join a game after Troll died but we no had direct interaction. Troll no can think of the game that Ectomancer has in mind that Troll might have played with him.

5. None.

6. None.

1. what games (with links) have you finished in the last 6 months? I

have played tons of games in the last 6 months. Link them would be a pain in the ass. From the top of my head. All WIH, Family Guy, Past ages, Drawn together, Insane Assylum, etc

2. what are your on-going games?

Im in LAL, this game, Nasubi, Adel games, MKM, And there were none, Chosen, open 141,

3. what is your personal definition of lurking?

Not posting or posting dumb things to avoid prod.

4. of the players in this game, which players have you played with in the last six months?

Adel, spring, zorblag, spyrex, Vi, Artem, Elmo

5. what other names do you play mafia under here?

I have some alts, try to guess them.

6. what other sites have you played at within the last six months?

None.

1. You can click my wiki, it's quite comprehensive.
2. same.
3. reading a certain game but not contributing to it.
4. SpyreX, Herod, Vi, I think.
5. none
6. EpicMafia

1.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10068
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10526
plus some marathon games

2.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11252

3.
Posting only often enough to avoid prods would almost always qualify.
Averaging only X sentences per day that are relevant to the game would qualify as lurking for some value of X which probably depends on the game and the gamestate (though I'm not suggesting I would literally count.)
Making only meaningless statements about the game would often qualify as lurking.
If over a sustained period, I don't know another player's positions regarding the issues we're discussing, they're probably lurking.
Other characteristics of peoples' posting could also mean they were lurking. I can't think of a good complete definition.

4.
Porkens and Artem
again, not including marathon day games... which would add at least Spring and Populartajo

5.
If I was playing under a different username, I don't think I'd reveal that.

6.
None.

1 and 2. Refer to my wiki page.
3. Post elsewhere but not here over an extended period of time. (This is not to be confused with "Active Lurking", where you show up occasionally, say nothing of import, and leave.)
4. taco and Porkens.
5 and 6. I'll leave that for you to guess.

1. DHSDSM Alpha, Crackers!, Xyl's Relative Chaos, Open 133 Lovers, Open 108 Weak MD, Speed Dating Smalltown, WaTR, Roccisi Autumn, Newbie 709 and Newbie 728

2. Open 142 True Love, Mafia in Ludd, Roccisi Summer and DHSDSM Beta

3. lack of contribution

4. Ectomancer, Adel, springlullaby, SpyreX (I am sad you forgot me ), Vi, populartajo (I am sad you forgot me ), Elmo

5. outed alts are: Doc (Friends and Enemies and Enemies and That Other Guy) and Bloodmoney (latter was Martyr Mafia, replaced out); in DHSDSM alpha and beta i am half of Trotsky

6. EpicMafia, IRC, ScumChat

Adel: 1. Georgetown, SPQR (Hydra), Return to New Catania. 2. Newbie 770. 3. Not posting for a long period of time. 4. Ecto was in New Catania. I don't think I've played with anyone else in the last six months. No comment on the last two, sorry

timing is very important in mafia, and is something I take quite seriously. I'll reveal what I choose to reveal when I judge it is the best time to do so.

Incidentally, was Herodotus scummy for failing to notice the loaded question?

um, he answered it.

1. what games (with links) have you finished in the last 6 months?
2. what are your on-going games?
3. what is your personal definition of lurking?
4. of the players in this game, which players have you played with in the last six months?
5. what other names do you play mafia under here?
6. what other sites have you played at within the last six months?

1&4 will have to wait for when I have time to do it properly -- within 24 hours.
2: only this one
3: a: posting just enough to avoid a prod, b: low signal:noise ratio, c: passive (as opposed to "active") posting.
5: only 1 game as "discordian algorithm" played quite a while ago
6. Epicmafia under the name "Adel" and "Adel1" IIRC

Mini 741 replaced out day 1, town, replaced by springlullaby (thanks!), other players: SpyreX (town)
Newbie 659 replaced in day 2, town, lost in endgame. No other players in this game.
Mini 650 replaced in day 3, scum, survived, other players: none
Mini 703 replaced in day 2, townie, survived, other players: Korts & Ecto (both were town)
Mafia 88, replaced in N4, mafia, survived. Other players: Elmo (town, died before I replaced in), Ecto (town, replaced out before I replaced in)
Martyr Mafia replaced in day 2, town while I was alive, both killed and recruited N2, lost, other players: populartajo (was also town while I was alive)

Full list of other players: SpyreX, springlullaby, Ecto, Korts, populartajo

[Adel]

Oh very well, one more before I get on the plane.

@Porkens:
-For two posts in a row, you've basically echoed what SpyreX said towards me. I think you're being hypocritical here when you say I don't do anything on my own.

Which part of SpyreX's posts did I echo with this (the ONLY think I said about you in my last real post):

Artem:

, if you declair that you have no intention of lynching someone you're voting for...maybe I'm missing the point? What good do your bandwagons tdo if you don't intend for them to end in lynches?

I think you kinda missed the point with this question anyway, but that's fine.

Oh what the hell;

Unvote. Vote: Artem

(L-2?)

See y'all in a few more hours.

why did Porkens warn of lynch -2 here,

to encourage others to vote.

why didn't you warn of lynch -2 with this post,

SpyreX is obvtown.

unvote, vote Adel

or warn what the votecount was with this post?

Adel, I'm impressed by your chart in 442. However, I am tired of beating my head against the wall asking you (again, and again) for the now 3 pieces of information you should give us (1. What's your meta analysis of your survey results? 2. Explanation for what reactions you wanted from the vote on SpyreX (I actually don't care about these, but since you said you would explaine, please do.) 3. What have I been stalling on?)

Elmo, your analysis in 448 is nice, but of course it'll get more interesting as the game develops (aka people start dying). I also dig what you accuse Korts of in 452.

Korts, as per 456; are you saying you backed off your vote because Adel questioned you?

Herod;

In that regard, I'm going to disappoint him. I just hope it doesn't lead to a mislynch in LYLO (I'm guessing this is the current game-plan of the scum, assuming Elmo is town.)

and

Do you think the scum are going to even consider NKing me?

This has been mentioned already but it warrents another: What?
AND an """rolefishing""" backpeddle in 477?

unvote, vote: herodotus

Artem; Blah, I've asked the most, I don't even have to go back and count to be sure of that (although you are welcome to.) Like I said before, your attack on me, consisting of "PORKENS IS JUST PARROTING"

after

I accused you of the same is transparent, I dunno, "one-upsmanship," possibly? In any case, doing it the most makes me king of it, so there you go.

[Adel]

Did you think that many people were giving Troll a pro-town read when you said that?

I recall thinking that most players probably had

too much

of a town read on you. I have a low opinion of most player's ability to think critically about, clear, concise and controlled posting.

Can you point to anything that lead you to this conclusion?

MD threads about what make a person "townie" or "protown" I suppose. Do you want me to dig them up?

If SpyreX be a one shot vig what does that do to the rest of your suspicions?

I'll stick with the (Porkens + Vi) grouping for most scummy.

For everyone: is it your impression that many people find Troll to be pro-town or did earlier in the day? Do you think that Troll be pro-town?

Troll be under the impression that most have Troll neutral to scummy and be trying to confirm this.

not townie or scummy, but "needs to post more" is probably what the consensus opinion was.

[Adel]

1.) If Adel is town I all but accept game over tomorrow. Almost all my reads are tainted by my Adel belief. Further I am very interested in the nightkill as well.

from the POV of a town player, each other player (assuming 3 mafia and no sk) has a 36% chance of being scum right now.

50% above baseline is a lot of confidence, and is rare without a sanity-confirmed cop investigation (which is still less than 100% due to the possibility of unexpected role interaction).

You are basically saying that you, as town, are willing to accept a coin flip for the result of this game... your actual level of confidence

can't

be over 50%, regardless of what you think it is. This is called tunneling, and it is hella common in active townies that get other active townies lynched.

[Adel]

I don't have a clue. During day 1 I was mostly interested in generating information for later analysis, and so far this day I've been pre-occupied with self-defense and examining SpryeX claim, and trying to get others to jump on a SpyreX wagon.

I can't think of anyone who has said SpyreX is anything other than Town for his claim, and for good reason. What reason is there to jump on the wagon of someone who has deliberately made the worst moves possible if he's anything other than what he says he is?

wait, are you characterizing SpryeX's moves as being the worst possible?

fuck, this is getting untenable for me. I basically bought SpryeX's claim as soon as he admitted to the 1-shot part, but I felt like I needed to continue rolling with it in order to defuse my wagon.

Full list of other players

: SpyreX, springlullaby, Ecto, Korts, populartajo

Since I would suspect you would have some handle on these players' metas offhand, have these people done anything you would consider out of their norm? since these seem like the easy people to evaluate.

No meta based scumtells to reveal at this time.

[Adel]

I'll stick with the (Porkens + Vi) grouping for most scummy.

And what about Ectomancer who has made that list in the past (assuming Troll's memory holds)?
[/quote]
I have less on him, he isn't on my wagon, and Porkens and Vi are easier players to lynch. Porkens and Vi have no risk of being NK'd, and even if they are town, I don't want them alive in lylo. Less risk & easier reward from focusing down on two.

[Adel]

I was trying to get other players to go for it. Ecto and DGB are the only players who came close to biting.

Adel isn't scum. I doubt Spyrex is scum. I will NOT vote Adel.

Adel, why would you vote Spyrex before Porkens?

I give the probability of a Spyrex gambit to be very low. I have to make too many assumptions, however, yes Vi, Spyrex dropping the "I'm only 1-shot" both complicates the issue (where did that kill come from if not Spyrex, and would he have had an extra as scum), and also makes Spyrex

less

believable because, to paraphrase his words, "He's a Walnut, very tough to crack", which makes him crumbling to Adel and giving up this 1-shot information (that should have gone to his death) not very believable to me.

[Adel]

Wait, am I going nuts? Are you passing the last 3-4 pages off as a gambit?

disappointed that you aren't going to get another lynch off on a good player?

[Adel]

SpyreX, you've totally tunneled. Take a break, open your mind, and do a reread.

[Adel]

The unexplained votes day 1.

aren't going to be explained.

The "stalling" business with Porkens.

your lack of suspicion of him, giving him cover, not being concearned about his lack of contribution, ect, is really making me think that y'all have out-of-game agreement to to lynch each other in this game.

The meta questionnaire that hasn't been used for anything.

of all of the posts on page 3, I challange you to find one that has generated more information.

The selective use of meta. (see me, Zorblag "Being good as scum" when his town record is percentage-wise better)

way out of context... I was talking about how Troll and Elmo are able to slip through as scum.

The unnecessary ad hom's with me.

hypocrite. You started it, continued it, and are making a deal out of it.

The difference in reactions from what I said versus what Elmo brought up.

think about this a little bit more please.

The "lol gambit" after it became apparent not only was I NOT going to get lynched BUT that the attack itself was going to get her lynched.

a vote doesn't = a lynch. sorry.

Ultimately, really, the ONLY reason I can see that no one has hammered is that "Ohh, Adel is just being Adel."

Which isn't going to fly.

please stop looking at the world though a straw.

[Adel]

Ohh Zor you were looking a bit too deep at the reasons:

All three of you, DGB and Ecto just went "lol, gambit? Sweet."

Why is Elmo missing from this list?

[Adel]

Ohh Zor you were looking a bit too deep at the reasons:

All three of you, DGB and Ecto just went "lol, gambit? Sweet."

Why is Elmo missing from this list?

seriously, the four other players who are better at mafia than you just reached the same tentative conclusion.

Once again, take a break, do a reread, and think about the game a little more carefully.

[Adel]

also, you didn't understand my play

even when we were lovers and my alignment was confirmed to you

. You still don't.

[Adel]

cry me a river.

[Adel]

sweet, PokerFace is next on the replacement list. The town's odds are looking up!

[Adel]

as I see it, right now there is the voting block of
1. (Vi, Porkens, SpyreX) who will only vote Adel
2. (spring, Ecto) who mmight vote Adel
3. (Troll, DGB, Adel, Elmo) who will not vote Adel

I think that the group of (Adel, Ecto, Elmo, DGB, Troll) should be able to agree that there is at least 1 scum within (Porkens, spring, Vi).

I think we might even be able to all agree on one of them, but we can also use SpryeX as an extra vote... anyhow, I think SpryeX (or Pokerface) should sit on his opinion of other players, to prevent scum players from simply following his lead, or telling him what he wants to hear.
Vote at deadline, or shortly before, but only as necessary.

[Adel]

I'd like to know from everyone not on the Adelwagon what Adel has done that is town. I really haven't seen anything.

ditto for those on my wagon: why am I scum.

Also, I'm at lynch -1. Please please, no "accidental" hammers this time.

[Adel]

Here's the deal: I agree with SpyreX. I think Adel is scum. I find that his inflammatory statements were intended to distract from, you know, the issue at hand. While he may argue that confrontational is his style, the way in which it was done (most pointedly that he continued to blame SpyreX for it happening in the first place rather than trying to put an end to it, and denying the very nature of it besides) come off as scum trying to cover his ass. The fact that you feel nothing for literally driving him from the game shows that you're scum trying to get rid of the early proponent of your lynch and/or a massive ass. In regards to the "holy grail", I would love to see some of this famed analysis before the day is over. You have pushed at least three wagons (SpyreX, Porkens, and one other I can't remember) without ever bothering to supply your reasoning. There is

no

town motivation for continuing to withhold your thought processes after you have moved your vote. Even if you find them irrelevant now, for the benefit of credibility you should share so that we know that there is logic, as easy as it is to ride on reputation. As a preemptive safeguard, do not post one of your charts without any following analysis. I can make pretty charts, too, I don't care about seeing what is public information spread out with nice colours, I want to know what you think. As it is, you have contributed nothing to this game which distinguishes you from anyone else. Talking, yelling, and arguing just don't cut it if you want us to also take your word on the benefits of your reputation.

That might be more than five sentences.

My point, Elmo, is that you approach arguments (like earlier this page) and go after the assumptions rather than the reasoning. While I understand that's strictly a good idea, it comes off as odd, to me.

Adel: Why are you alive?

I'm a powerrole.

fucking unvote me now, please.

[Adel]

Soft claims are tech.

unvote, vote: Porkens

for hammering Hero, riding Atrem, "knowing" that SpryrX was obvious town, and for voting me without having intelligent reasons for voting for me, and for accusing me of stalling and not contributing while he was even more guilty of the very same thing..

[Adel]

are you asking me to do a full claim?

[Adel]

Paraphrasing a role PM takes seconds, fabricating a good fakeclaim can take a lifetime.

<3

totally typical of your posts in this game.

[Adel]

dude, I'm still at lynch -1. unvote me, please. Then I'll play nice.