Mini 792 - Tofu Mafia. Game over!

[Ectomancer]

vote Adel

Lynching a claimed Vig/SK on D2 is

my

definition of suboptimal play. An SK without scum dead

plays in an anti-scum manner

. You don't lynch until you have at least 1 scum dead, and even then you hope scum will either NK them, or expose themselves by pushing a case against an SK if they are not NK'able.

@Spyrex - wtf? There is no reason you should have let yourself be goaded into that. A lack of 2 NK's would have made me believe a lot more in the Vig claim (roleblocker is dead). At least you would possibly have gotten targeted for a kill, but now you just give up that you are essentially a VT after last night?

[Adel]

why don't you think that SpryeX can be mafia?

[Adel]

also, one vote does not make for a lynch. SpyreX got called out for trying to run my mislynch, and got nervous. His fakeclaim should be transparent.

[Ectomancer]

He can, but the only way I can think of is if he is a GF with a Watcher buddy who could do a head count, realize there is an SK out there, and claim SK in order to draw the target tonight, find the 1 player that they do have to find, and then count on the Watcher to see them through, (a serious gambit) unless the GF is non-NK'able, which means the SK might be non-NK'able as well.
In that case, I would expect the SK to attempt to get the Spyrex lynched, even ignoring optimal play in order to do it. In that case...are you the SK?

[Ectomancer]

EBWOP: Claim Vig, not SK. The SK would realize the unlikelyhood of a real Vig since there weren't 3 kills last night.

[Adel]

I'm not a SK, or a Vig.

Why not a mafia goon with a 1-shot extra NK? or a normal mafia goon expecting me to lynch him anyway so going for the gambit seemed like a good idea (The second kill only made the gambit easier, if there hadn't been a second kill then we'd just assume that the mafia kill didn't go through for what ever reason).

Why aren't you willing to wait for SpyreX to explain why he thought it was a good idea to waste his kill N1? You seemed awfully eager to accept his lame excuse of "I thought Atrem was scum" without giving reasons.

[Adel]

btw

I'm at lynch -2

-- and Porkens (Mr. "I always hammer" and member of "Bad at Mafia") has posted exactly once during this day.

Vi, SpyreX and Ecto are all voting for me, and they were all in on Hero's lynch as well.

This should be raising flags for the rest of y'all.

[Ectomancer]

Has extra 1-shot NK goons been added into "normal roles"?
Who made the 2nd kill without this extra 1 shot by mafia?

Why aren't you willing to wait for SpyreX to explain why he thought it was a good idea to waste his kill N1?

Asks the person who expected to be killed N1.

Perhaps I am more willing to accept the answer of someone who behaved (or claims to have behaved) in a manner that I myself would. As Vig, I'm on the "always kill" side of things, unless you know you are in or possibly near LYLO. Lynches are mafia-influenced by definition. My Vig kill is not.

[Ectomancer]

btw

I'm at lynch -2

-- and Porkens (Mr. "I always hammer" and member of "Bad at Mafia") has posted exactly once during this day.

Vi, SpyreX and Ecto are all voting for me, and they were all in on Hero's lynch as well.

This should be raising flags for the rest of y'all.

I know. You can also toss in that I've been setting up an either/or lynch on Adel/Spyrex.

[Adel]

Has extra 1-shot NK goons been added into "normal roles"?

You were in TDC's game with me, and you've played in enough mini normals to know better. see: http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Normal

A normal game does not have to have any other roles other than Mafia and Townies. If it includes other roles,

they should mostly be considered standard

, such as Cop, Doctor, Vigilante, Roleblocker, Mason, Traitor, Serial Killer.

Other (new or otherwise) roles can be included. However, there should be no more than 1-2 of these

, and they should be based around the usual game mechanics: Killing, Protecting, Investigating, Voting.

Who made the 2nd kill without this extra 1 shot by mafia?

either a SK killed Tajo, or SpryeX is a SK, or the mafia had 2 kills last night, or a vig hasn't claimed.

Why aren't you willing to wait for SpyreX to explain why he thought it was a good idea to waste his kill N1?

Asks the person who expected to be killed N1.

nice non-answer.

Perhaps I am more willing to accept the answer of someone who behaved (or claims to have behaved) in a manner that I myself would. As Vig, I'm on the "always kill" side of things, unless you know you are in or possibly near LYLO. Lynches are mafia-influenced by definition. My Vig kill is not.

even if it was just a 1-shot? Please let SpyreX answer first.

[Adel]

1.) I would know better.
2.) My mentions of Adel probably do not support that.
3.) And this is the reason why I asked. Mentioning another player a lot but deciding they are not fos- or vote-worthy is probably a mason tell. Are Adel and I masons? There is no way I'm going to answer that.

But you are role-fishing.

unvote
vote: SpyreX
I'll have to re-check, but I think I'd also be equally inclined to lynch Vi.

1.) Ohh I wouldn't do that could work, but we'll get to it.
2.) The sheer volume of connect overlaps any positive or negative connontations.
3.) The only town-town scenario where it would make sense to mention another player THAT MUCH is if you were, in fact, masons. Thats not role-fishing as much as common sense.

But, hey, who am I to argue when you setup a "zomg trap sprung" scenario that makes no sense.

Except to do this:

Unvote, Vote Herod

Additionally:

1.) Why are you mentioning Adel so much?
2.) Why was your instinctive response to my bringing this up to try and downplay the numbers like its going to change anything?

I think a full analysis could be useful, but there are issues like nicknames:
For me, add 3 for "PT", 5 for "tajo" and 1 for "Tajo" meaning populartajo. And 6 for "SL" meaning springlullaby. There may be others, but I don't recall them.
Another issue is that we've used pronouns, too.

That paragraph alone has two more "namedrops" than would be necessary with pronouns. If every pronoun I've used or quoted was counted for the player it referenced, I think you'd find at least Porkens, Korts, Artem, and SpyreX would be substantially higher.
Aside from that, a lot of the "namedrops" were either quote tags or within quoted or requoted text -- I've been asked about Adel a lot, including a couple of those tortured paragraphs.

Also, "Troll" should add 2 to Zorblag from me.

Spyrex, I'm guessing you'll want to amend those counts to include more nicknames?

Also, the data set does not include (or includes by some players but not by others) nicknames, as I mentioned in 431 and 434. I've done my own numbers and two others so far;

if SpyreX's original counts were correct

, these updates based on nicknames, prior to SpyreX 427, are also correct:

Considering, since its happened, you've spent a lot of energy trying to downplay how much you've mentioned Adel's name and are voting me now under some kind of rolefishing (which is the only damn explanation of you being both town) instead of, ohh, explaining it yourself maybe this'll spark some interest.

Or, well, get you hung. Thats cool too.

note that analytical scumhunting had begun, Hero voted for SpyreX at 472, and Hero was quickly lynched. SpyreX's vote at 476 was OMGUS, and placed Hero at lynch -1.

I'm calling a SpyreX + 2 out of (Porkens + Vi + Ecto) scumgroup. I'm willing to vote for any of the three.

Also, you'll notice I've never said both of you are scum. Thats because I find Porkens/Ecto the lowest probability scum pairing in the game.

why exactly are they the lowest probability pairing for you? I didn't really notice this earlier because it was similar to what I was thinking, but now I notice that you didn't explain how you reached this conclusion, and you've clearly disagreed with the process that I used to reach a similar conclusion (perhaps because you

knew

that I was wrong about why the mafia killed?)

~~~

Yes, this means that I'm giving Troll and Elmo a pass from my earlier fear that their "logical as scum" playstyle is letting them slip through...

[Adel]

also note that Atrem showed a willingness to play along and cooperate with me. That is a definite motivation for scum to kill him!

[Adel]

If I had a bullet and Hero flips town I'd shoot: Porkens or Ecto
If I had a bullet and Hero flips scum I'd shoot: Korts

... just saying.

[Adel]

Time for some thinking out loud:

If I had a bullet and Hero flips town I'd shoot: Porkens or Ecto
If I had a bullet and Hero flips scum I'd shoot: Korts

Are you ready for assumation bullet time attack? I sure am!

So, I'm operating under the premise that if they are scummy enough to shoot, he'd damn well roleblock them.

Additionally, I have to operate under the premise that we're using some kind of NaR for roles.

So, from this: barring an actual SK or something nutso, Porkens/Ecto could NOT have performed the kill (whichever was targeted, but thats moot).

Thus, we put on our scum hat: you've got to send in a night kill. The mod, hopefully, has said you have to specify WHO is sending the kill (so the roleblocking is actually helpful). You don't necessarily know WHY, but you have to assume the chance of the naughty town roles (Tracker, Roleblocker, etc).

At this point, you'd probably want to send someone to perform the kill that was NOT going to draw said roles. An under the radar.

Both Porkens AND Ecto drew -some- flak throughout the day (from each other, oddly enough as well as others). The only ones, personally, I could see being higher profile would be: Adel & Myself (maaybe Elmo).

So, this makes the gut shriek the kill was performed by one of the lower profile players. Namely the grouping of Zorblag, Korts(DGB), Vi, Spring.

this post makes perfect sense to me as being written by a mafia-aligned SpyreX.

[Vi]

I don't follow. You have justified your vote on Adel today on the ground that she hadn't 'delivered' as a proof of scuminess. Yet your meta was that she did 'deliver' as both town and scum.

At risk of sounding patronizing, it was also in a timely manner. In the other game I saw Adel offer a questionnaire, the results were compiled and fully explained D1, and while a big show was made about how it was

so much work

to compile the answers, it was pretty easy to put together. (And pretty impressive, admittedly.)

I did respond to other votes on me, did I not?

Ah... yes, you did. I was mistaken. (Those responses were the defensive flare-ups mentioned earlier.)

I mean coaching defined as trying to influence a buddy's play.
i.e. You commenting on Adel 'pulling strings' followed by 'I don't think it's necessary'.

The comment in itself kinda don't fit in your scenario of yourself trying to determine Adel's alignment between the lines. Giving hints as to how you think she should act kinda defeat the purpose of observation, no?

I'm not sure if you're hinting that I was trying to pass along a secret message or just misreading, but "I don't think it's necessary" was referring to my decision on whether I should move my vote.

The point to the above being? I did pressure Artem a fair bit.

Mostly out of defense from Artem's accusation, and for a total of... two and a half posts, IIRC.
I did pressure Herodotus quite a bit (for what it's worth), and also Adel quite a bit (for what it's worth)... and you regarding your absence and immediate defensiveness, though you never responded (#24).

-----

1) Third, Vi seems primed to make the kind of wall of word quote battles that won't do much to help the town,
2) and if I were to vote for him OMGUS would be the reply.

1) *reads your posts on Page 29* You can't be serious.
2) Really? Odd that the meta expert accuses me of potentially doing something that I never do. (at least in relation to votes; I have told people they suck on a few occasions though)

Combined with the way Hero was rapidly hammered yesterday before I got going, I'm looking at the following narrative as a possibility:

SpyreX is scum, and was expecting

me

to push a major case against him. He decided to setup a fake claim of Vig, and started the "if I have a gun" claim yesterday. Once this day started, SpyreX saw that there was a second kill (expected if SpryeX is a SK, unexpected if SpryeX is mafia) and SpryeX claimed.

One thing about all of your theories up to this point - they revolve around YOU. Another thing to note is that you haven't actually pushed a major case against... well... anyone really, until now.

Vi, SpyreX and Ecto are all voting for me, and they were all in on Hero's lynch as well.

Over half the player list was on the Day 1 wagon

-----

Elmo, yesterday you gave a sarcastic response to Herodotus when he said that he would be inclined to lynch me. Has your opinion changed?
What do you think of the SpyreX/Adel exchange?

-----

Was this some kind of an attempt at a reverse verbal trap by you Vi? Like if I said he was scummy for dropping it, I was somehow trying to say I was pro-town for sticking to my guns?

Reverse verbal trap? Forget quote walls, this topic is getting bogged down in pseudo-scientific mafiaspeak.
I wanted your opinion on Artem in light of how that was basically what he did and (later) advocated doing. I would later use this to gauge how fluid your opinion was.

@Spyrex - wtf? There is no reason you should have let yourself be goaded into that. A lack of 2 NK's would have made me believe a lot more in the Vig claim (roleblocker is dead). At least you would possibly have gotten targeted for a kill, but now you just give up that you are essentially a VT after last night?

Why is this phrased as a question? This claim makes it beyond unlikely that SpyreX is an SK. But it seems like you're trying to frame it as scummy.

-----

btw I'm at lynch -2 -- and Porkens (Mr. "I always hammer" and member of "Bad at Mafia") has posted exactly once during this day.

It wouldn't be bad to hear from him, but this is one of those times when I wouldn't mind an untimely hammer. It's like having zwet around, but awesome.

I'm calling a SpyreX

(voting for Adel)

+ 2 out of (Porkens

(absentee)

+ Vi

(voting)

+ Ecto

(voting)

) scumgroup. I'm willing to vote for any of the three.

This looks a whole lot like what Artem got blasted for D1...

I freely acknowledge I don't understand Adel 710. 711 is what Adel would term "blather". But I see SpyreX's post quoted in 713 as being rather unhelpful on a pragmatic level - not that it influences my opinion of his alignment.

It still feels like there are only a few people playing this game. We need more player variety ITT.

[Adel]

It wouldn't be bad to hear from him, but this is one of those times when I wouldn't mind an untimely hammer.

It still feels like there are only a few people playing this game. We need more player variety ITT.

unvote, vote: Vi

[Ectomancer]

Thought I would topic watch tonight so I could ride this to an edge. Ended up taking a sedative instead, so I cant watch for the QL.

unvote

until tomorrow or Monday.
Saw my name a couple times briefly, will look at what was said then

[Porkens]

SpyreX is obvtown.

unvote, vote Adel

[Adel]

I'm shocked.

[Porkens]

What are you implying?

[Adel]

I'm getting quicklynched by scum.

[Porkens]

Your play baffles me (for better or worse).

[Adel]

why are you voting for me?

why do you believe SpryeX's claim?

why do you think it is improbable that I'm being setup for a mislynch?

Did you really read all of the posts in this thread, since your last post, before your vote on me? Did you really think about all of those exchanges?

[Porkens]

why are you voting for me?

Like I said before, the three people all dying and all being town made my psyche shatter. You've been giving me a scummy gut vibe for a long time. And like I said, and have consistently said, thought the game; If I were vig, I'd shoot Adel.

why do you believe SpryeX's claim?

Look at his other vig games; he always shoots night one, and he always claims.

[quote="Adel]why do you think it is improbable that I'm being setup for a mislynch?[/quote]

I didn't say I thought it was improbable. But you are on my short-list of scum possibles.

Did you really read all of the posts in this thread, since your last post, before your vote on me? Did you really think about all of those exchanges?

I skimmed. I didn't absorb much; it's all turning into white noise at this point (megapost v. megapost). But I do know SpyreX's claiming/shooting habits as vig, and I take that to be your main point against him even though you claim to do "deep, psycological meta analysis."

[Adel]

ah, I forgot that you were in Mini 712 with him -- I was hoping that he would bring up meta as a defense, it is nice of you to do it for him. Protip: meta enables fakeclaims. Watch for it, and be skeptical of it.