Mini 792 - Tofu Mafia. Game over!

[caf19]

Votecount

Herodotus (2): Elmo, populartajo
springlullaby (1): Zorblag
Adel (1): Vi
populartajo (1): Ectomancer
Artem (4): SpyreX, springlullaby, Korts, Porkens
Porkens (2): Artem, Adel

Not voting

Herodotus

[Herodotus]

Is it normal for Spyrex (as town) to prefer a short day 1?

YOU ARE DOING IT AGAIN! He did not say he wanted a short day 1, he said he wanted to avoid an overly long day 1, which is pro-town.

Short means different things to different people. I should have said "relatively shorter," or something like that, but it was clear what I meant. Regardless, the correct answer to that first of two questions was "yes, when he is town, SpyreX prefers that day 1 be short(er than it is in most games.)" Meaning he is consistent with that in this game. Bringing that up hardly qualifies as misrepresentation or throwing mud.

And yeah, Herod's unvote is ridiculous, it's like he doesn't genuinely believe Artem is scum, unsurprisingly - no wonder Artem sees a huge difference between this and the aggressive townie he played with before. Maybe you should do something about that, y'know, with a rope?

I don't know whether Artem is scum; if I did, I'd be calling for his lynch if he was, or defending him if he wasn't. The only way I could already genuinely believe with any certainty that Artem is scum is if we were scum together.

Artem continues to be town and I will happily argue with anyone who asserts otherwise (is voting him) if they care to engage with me; providing reasoning would be good, it seems like most people on the wagon haven't given (m)any. It's just a wagon that's 'good enough' and not on me, without any real expectation of lynching scum.

That

is unacceptable.

I agree the second sentence may accurately describe some of the votes on Artem, but the last sentence would only be true later, for example if Artem were lynched or forced to claim. Short of that, votes are reversible and don't do any harm.
So, which people do you think want Artem lynched but don't expect that he is scum? Or more importantly, of those, who do you think has a scummy motivation?

@Herodotus: I'm quite aware of that. My objection is in DE, which is unabashedly poor reasoning for pushing an Artem lynch.

Well, being "inconsistent with a town alignment" alone would be a good reason. But it looks like his response wasn't necessarily inconsistent. Looking back, his question to me looks fairly rational, a departure from his earlier frustration. At first, I just read it as "stop voting for me," but that interpretation seems incorrect. So yes, a townie might be asking that question.

I want a rough stance from everyone on {Spring, Troll, Herod, Korts}.

I have some moderate suspicion of Zorblag based on his voting pattern (as a whole, and before considering 324.) For the others, I'm not going to give the scum information on my neutral/town reads.

[populartajo]

Im catching up tonight.

This is a promise.

[Herodotus]

For the others, I'm not going to give the scum information on my neutral/town reads.

I mean that for now, this concern is overriding.

[Adel]

For the others, I'm not going to give the scum information on my neutral/town reads.

Blather. If you don't have a sum read than you must have a town or neutral read.

[Herodotus]

For the others, I'm not going to give the scum information on my neutral/town reads.

Blather. If you don't have a sum read than you must have a town or neutral read.

Yes. One or the other.

[Korts]

Not at all. It's Troll's place to answer the arguments against him.
Or was this a rhetorical question?

Rhetorical, I was just making a point of showing my train of thought.

Elmo is slightly scummier for this is what I was saying.

Why?

a) because dubbing an argument a town-town argument, especially implicitly like Elmo did, is more frequently a scum buddying tactic than an honest town opinion--particularly the implicit part bugs me.

Korts, this "bandwagon fishing" is empty buzzwords until shown otherwise. There is no reason he should care about the context;

He should ABSOLUTELY care about context. Without context everything is useless.

Your other reason for voting Artem is entirely vague and I want you to clarify it right now.

I think I was quite clear in these two paragraphs:

On a review of Herod/Artem I agree with Herodotus that Artem's vote was not consistent with his earlier stance on Herod. However I can see how Artem's evaluation of scum vs. town can incorrectly be phrased "more likely scum than town" while in actuality meaning "you're more likely scum than random", and the argument against him should not be mistaken for this point.

I dislike Artem's SpyreX vote as well. The twisting words point is not particularly strong; SpyreX's interpretation was acceptable, if not the most likely true. And the "You said that scums use wagons, so you wanting a wagon must mean you're scum. DURRR!" point is not only weak, but it is also highly hypocritical considering the previous "twisting words" point--it is another twist, this time of SpyreX's words.

Also, I second Vi's question, and I'd like to know why you merely "noted" it instead of asked me about it.

I asked nothing because there is nothing to ask about it. You dubbed the Artem/SpyreX argument a town-town one, without any supporting reasons, and did so without stating that it's a town-town argument, but rather immediately assuming it.

Let me quote you:

Apparent stubbornness is characteristic of these kinds of town - town fights. It's very, very difficult not to feel hostile towards someone who's attacking you, so when two townies really go at it, it tends to snowball in exactly this manner.

Again, I don't see what question I could've posed that would've told me more than this statement already did.

And again, why are you not willing to follow up your gut feeling about Herod - distancing, or will you ever get serious about it? You've not acted at all like someone who feels uneasy about him, mostly agreeing with him in ways that look uncritical at best to me. Do you have a similarly bad feeling about Artem?

OH GOD THE BROKEN LOGIC

I had an initial bad gut read on Herodotus, but I couldn't put it into substance. That I didn't follow up on this initial suspicion and that I agree with him on some points should tell you quite clearly that I don't have anything against him. And why should I follow up on an early game bad feeling if there is no further suspicion?

Artem has been generally badly posting and misrepresenting or twisting arguments. That's the gist of my vote.

I want a rough stance from everyone on {Spring, Troll, Herod, Korts}.

Troll is slightly scummy.

I'm getting a scummy read off Elmo now. His defense of Artem is too strong for my liking.

[Adel]

Artem has been generally badly posting and misrepresenting or twisting arguments. That's the gist of my vote.

Do you claim that bad logic is a universal scumtell, or do have evidence that Artem's use of bad logic is limited to when he is scum?

[Adel]

*do

you

have evidence that Artem's use of bad logic is limited to when he is scum?

Also, hypothetically speaking, if one of (Elmo Herod) is scum, do think the other is likely or unlikely to be scum?

[Adel]

unvote, vote:populartajo

reason: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/search.p ... opulartajo
he is actively posting in other games, joined a large game, and is actively lurking in this game.

[Korts]

Artem has been generally badly posting and misrepresenting or twisting arguments. That's the gist of my vote.

Do you claim that bad logic is a universal scumtell, or do you have evidence that Artem's use of bad logic is limited to when he is scum?

There is no such thing as a universal scumtell, but misrepresentation comes pretty damn close. Also, my "badly posting" comment is supposed to mean that I have problems with Artem's choice of words and general behaviour, not with his bad logic.

[Elmo]

Korts, there is nothing implicit about "you are both town". That's about as explicit as you can get. Who would I be buddying up with, and how?

There is no reason he should care about the context; a vote on someone he suspects is good from his point of view, regardless of why.

He should ABSOLUTELY care about context. Without context everything is useless.

I'm sorry, what? A vote on someone he suspects is a good thing, period. He does not need to look at why you were considering voting to say he'd like it if you voted. The empty platitude here does not answer anything;

why is it scummy

?

On a review of Herod/Artem I agree with Herodotus that Artem's vote was not consistent with his earlier stance on Herod.

I'm not sure exactly what you mean by his earlier stance, that's what I meant by vague. I don't know where exactly you agree with Herod, either; this also circumvents looking at the reasons for Artem's vote. As to Artem's vote on SpyreX, you have not actually said why he is more likely to do it as scum.

I'd like to know why you merely "noted" it instead of asked me about it.

I asked nothing because there is nothing to ask about it.

Did the question "Elmo, why do you think it is a town-town fight" not occur to you?

I had an initial bad gut read on Herodotus, but I couldn't put it into substance. That I didn't follow up on this initial suspicion and that I agree with him on some points should tell you quite clearly that I don't have anything against him. And why should I follow up on an early game bad feeling if there is no further suspicion?

That's my problem; you aren't following up a bad feeling. Unless I'm mistaken, you haven't even asked Herod a question. You don't have anything against him, but you're not

looking to get anything

, either, despite saying IGMEOY earlier. And you agree relatively quickly with him, and have shown zero interest in any points against him. It seems off. Would you disagree that if Herod flipped scum, it would look like empty distancing?

Artem has been generally badly posting and misrepresenting or twisting arguments. That's the gist of my vote.

And that is very vague. I do not want the gist of your vote, I want clear, specific reasons, which I don't currently have. Which specific arguments has he twisted, and why is that misrepresentation rather than misinterpretation?

I'm getting a scummy read off Elmo now. His defense of Artem is too strong for my liking.

Please elaborate. Lots.

[SpyreX]

I'm getting a scummy read off Elmo now. His defense of Artem is too strong for my liking.

I've been playing around with this in my head as well (because it bugs the hell out of me).

I can't fathom that strong of a defense for a scum-buddy*. However I, independently, find Artem to be scummy as all getout. Which, well, bothers me. It is too transparent day 1 to tie yourself so close with minimal gain. Unless Elmo is scum AND Artem is town.

Yet, see Artem's play and I just dont get it.

* This assumes Artem is not one of the classic "must-save" scum roles (see recruiter, etc). If this is the case Elmo doesn't even get to defend themselves and go off the plank tomorrow.

[SpyreX]

And just curious Adel: Ever gonna explain that vote on me / your information gathering?

[Elmo]

Cat mafia 4 lyfe yo.

SpyreX, I'm more than willing to explain anything if asked. You said you didn't feel it was productive, if I remember.

[Ectomancer]

unvote, vote:populartajo

reason: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/search.p ... opulartajo
he is actively posting in other games, joined a large game, and is actively lurking in this game.

It's about time someone got on this bandwagon.

[populartajo]

unvote, vote:populartajo

reason: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/search.p ... opulartajo
he is actively posting in other games, joined a large game, and is actively lurking in this game.

Other games dont need a reread of hundreds of wallotexts.

I promised tonight.

You now wait for it.

[Adel]

Artem has been generally badly posting and misrepresenting or twisting arguments. That's the gist of my vote.

Do you claim that bad logic is a universal scumtell, or do you have evidence that Artem's use of bad logic is limited to when he is scum?

There is no such thing as a universal scumtell, but misrepresentation comes pretty damn close. Also, my "badly posting" comment is supposed to mean that I have problems with Artem's choice of words and general behaviour, not with his bad logic.

same question then, just replace "bad logic" with "bad word choice and general behavior".

also, please respond to

Also, hypothetically speaking, if one of (Elmo Herod) is scum, do think the other is likely or unlikely to be scum?

* This assumes Artem is not one of the classic "must-save" scum roles (see recruiter, etc). If this is the case Elmo doesn't even get to defend themselves and go off the plank tomorrow.

which other roles are "must save"?

[Adel]

last three post by populartajo:

Im here catching up all i missed

Im catching up tonight.

This is a promise.

unvote, vote:populartajo

reason: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/search.p ... opulartajo
he is actively posting in other games, joined a large game, and is actively lurking in this game.

Other games dont need a reread of hundreds of wallotexts.

I promised tonight.

You now wait for it.

meanwhile he has made more than 70 other posts on this site.

Bandwagon now, please.

[populartajo]

Fuck it Adel.

Other games dont need a reread of hundreds of wallotexts.

I promised tonight.

You now wait for it.

[SpyreX]

which other roles are "must save"?

That was the first one that jumped to mind. Considering this is a normal others that are far fetched like scum vig or doc (or maybe even more conventional watcher, etc) might do it as well.

So yes, oddly enough in my head if Artem flips Goon I'd feel a lot better about Elmo.

SpyreX, I'm more than willing to explain anything if asked. You said you didn't feel it was productive, if I remember.

Our particular train of discussion was covering the same ground and increasing in volume. Neither of which was all that helpful, imo.

I find the series of actions that Artem has done to be scummy. You don't find any of them scummy.

At this point, until we have more information, I doubt either of us are going to budge.

It's about time someone got on this bandwagon.

Substance. Soon.

[Adel]

last three post by populartajo:

Im here catching up all i missed

Im catching up tonight.

This is a promise.

unvote, vote:populartajo

reason: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/search.p ... opulartajo
he is actively posting in other games, joined a large game, and is actively lurking in this game.

Other games dont need a reread of hundreds of wallotexts.

I promised tonight.

You now wait for it.

Fuck it Adel.

Other games dont need a reread of hundreds of wallotexts.

I promised tonight.

You now wait for it.

meanwhile he has made more than 70 other posts on this site.

Bandwagon now, please.

[Elmo]

Yet, see Artem's play and I just dont get it.

This is more what I'm aiming at. I'm not saying his play is perfect, but I don't see anything bizarre about it.

[Elmo]

I mean, I feel like I "get" it. Sometimes one player is much more likely to understand what someone's thinking than another; I'm reminded of when I double-headed, and one townie's play looked ridiculously scummy to me, and my partner basically sat me down and explained what the guy was doing, at which point I changed my view of him. It helped a lot that we were confirmed to each other, though, but (shrug) it was helpful for me then.

[Herodotus]

vote: populartajo

Aside from the lurking, he is buddying up to Elmo, both with his vote and in his stated analysis. His first vote was random, but his second has been in place since page 2, so at the least, he should be feeding the parking meter. Finally, his antagonism toward Adel has been giving me vibes of disingenuousness since it started (which was why I asked Adel about him earlier.)