Mini 792 - Tofu Mafia. Game over!
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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I'm not going to vote for Artem unless someone presents a solid case. Pseudo-random day 1 witch hunt seems to be the current cause of his wagon.-
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caf19 Goon
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
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This is not acceptable. There has been a lot being said about Artem, with people voting for him for a myriad of reasons.Adel wrote:I'm not going to vote for Artem unless someone presents a solid case. Pseudo-random day 1 witch hunt seems to be the current cause of his wagon.
Do delineate clearly which reason you find to be 'pseudo-random' and why.-
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
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I think the principal quality required from Porkens to make his comment is to be a jerk regardless of alignment, so yes it means that I think it is null.SpyreX wrote: @Spring:
If Porkens is a "jerk" does that make him town or scum? My statement says that being a "jerk" of that nature IS a towntell considering. I can't decide if you're saying he's null or what from your statement.
I also wonder why you think it is a towntell because I think that in face of uncertainty and baring being a jerk town is actually a lot more likely to be at least tactful over the matter.
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Artem, assessment of everyone in the game please. I can't place your Porkens vote.
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Porkens, do reply to my post addressing you.-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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here ya go:springlullaby wrote: I agree with the Artem vote.
This passage is entirely weird and I think artificial: the fact that the motive by which he is putting me at townish is because I have not contributed is mind boggling, I believe that the furthermost any honest townie can read into a meta back-ed absence is giving a nulltell.quote wrote: Spring - is playing pretty much like she did in the other two games (where I knew her alignment to be town); and I still stand by my earlier point that the best way to get SL posting is to start pushing a case on her (and I don't really have the stamina or purpose to do it a third time).
The meta is also off. I contributed much more unprompted in both games we were in.
Then consider the second part of the post which is basically an encouragement for people to 'push a case' on me while having no part of it and having me at 'townish'.
I'm surprised this hasn't raised more red flags because it is quite the scummy.
I also think his defence face Spyrex's case is not good, it is overly exasperated at some point, and make emotional 'I'm intimidated' appeal at other. And his vote on Spyrex is also nebulous. I don't get it.
Unvote Vote Artem
are there some critical posts of your's that I somehow missed? Right now all I see is blather: I do not see a coherent case against Artem.springlullaby wrote:
Well, this is actually true. What struck me was the dissonance between you making such a post alluding at being intimidated with overtone of shyness, of 'relative newbie card', and your later defence face Spyrex in which you did not read intimidated at all.
I was kinda waiting you around the corner on this one, and you sort of exceed expectations.Artem wrote:
I don't think the meta was off when I made that post. Yes, now that you've avoided posting content for pages, the meta is off, but who's to say you didn't do it on purpose so that you can make this argument?SL wrote: The meta is also off. I contributed much more unprompted in both games we were in.
1. Your meta was off at the time of your post for the simple reason that my absence which you read as town was caused by VLA, as was mentioned in thread before your post. I think this should have nullified any read in the mind of a honest townie since no purpose can be read into my absence under these circumstances. Agree/disagree?
2. So, you think 'I threw off' my meta for the purpose of...framing you? Are you serious? Lol. I think that's quite the scummy counter here.
The only place I've said "I'm intimidated with the cast" was when I was explaining to Vi why my posts are concise and unsure. Can you please quote where I used "I'm intimidated" appeal in my defense against SpyreX?SL wrote: I also think his defence face Spyrex's case is not good, it is overly exasperated at some point, and make emotional 'I'm intimidated' appeal at other.
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Right now I like my Artem vote.
Zorblag is looking scummy because his case on me is a lot of words, weak reasoning, and warped arguments. The strangeness about his relation to Artem's in the post supposedly addressing my guiltiness may be relevant later.
I need to reread everyone else.
your case seems to be pseudo-random, and typical of those voting for Artem.sl wrote:
This is not acceptable. There has been a lot being said about Artem, with people voting for him for a myriad of reasons.adel wrote:I'm not going to vote for Artem unless someone presents a solid case. Pseudo-random day 1 witch hunt seems to be the current cause of his wagon.
Do delineate clearly which reason you find to be 'pseudo-random' and why.
I'm throwing the "bullshit" flag. Your case against him, judging exclusively from your words, does not convince.
Telling me that my objection is "not acceptable" is noteworthy, and lends support to my suspicion that the wagon against him is just a witch hunt.-
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
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Adel, what is the purpose of your last post? You have quoted me. Yes, then what?
What do you fail to understand in my asking you to clarify the reasons why you think the argument made against Artem are 'pseudo-random'?
If you throw the 'bullshit flag', that is ok, but I'm going to ask you why again.
Plus, I did not say that your objection was not acceptable. Ofc, you are welcome to your opinion ^_^ But if you are going to make the statement that you find a wagon which may lead to a lynch to be objectionable, I want to know why. Do you need me to elaborate the reasons for that?
Now explain why my comment 'lends support' to your thinking that the wagon against him is a 'witch hunt' because I fail to reconnect the dots.-
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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refine you argument into something clear and concise please... otherwise I'll continue to consider your case to be pseudo-random bullshit. "pseudo-random bullshit" is my default category for all day 1 cases, until something prompts me to recategorize them into a more substantial category.-
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Elmo Mafia Scum
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Ecto! :'( I hope you recover swiftly.
His perception, then, would be that he's being blatantly lied about. The almost universal reaction to that is - understandably - outrage mixed with distress, sometimes tinged with blind aggression. So you would expect dead wrong. What reactionHerodotus wrote:it strikes me as odd that Artem is upset about a "bunk" case on him. I'd expect a townie to react differently, especially if he genuinely suspects Spyrex is scum, in which case it's part of Spyrex's job to make bunk cases.wouldyou expect, I wonder? It'd require quite a twisted psyche to be happy or excited that someone was lying to your face, so it beggars belief What you are doing is taking the typical townie reaction and spinning it as scummy when it's obviously nothing of the sort.
Spring and Zorblag are distancing, badly.oo
Hey look, it's a goodposting. Now I think about it, that's part of what bothers me. Troll, you realise we need to pick someone to lynch today, yea?Korts wrote:Troll's 229 seems awfully careful not to interpret anything other than lack of contribution as scummy.
Spring, why does Adel's mere lack of support get more attention than me shouting that Artem is town?
Korts wrote:
The bullshit, it hurts so much. And aren't you just as stubborn, anyway?Artem wrote:you're way too stubborn to be town (especially in this group)
Are we detecting a pattern yet, hmm? This is a bad reason for a vote; would you do more than note the possibility of a town-town fight any time soon? "Bandwagon fishing" is a ridiculous tell, on the face of it; he's stated he thinks SpyreX is scum, why would he not want to get other people voting him? You know, the exact thing I did with you in relation to Herod and you didn't suspect me for, yes?Sarcastro in [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?t=6266]Fritz Fest[/url] wrote: Are you saying that I originally meant it the way you're saying and am now lying about what it means? Your interpretation of it is absolutely nonsensical, and now you're just stubbornly refusing to face fact. No, it is not open to interpretation. It means exactly what I said it means.{...} Not only are you being scummy, you've now moved into "blatantly and intentionally obnoxious". Your attacks on me are pure bullshit. You better have a bloody good claim, because I'd consider lynching you as a confirmed innocent right now. Please die.
@Adel: My pseudo-random bullshit with Herod is of the highest quality. Would you like a free sample? Also.. how did such a meta analysis thingygummy help in e.g. Open 83? I can't find anything comparable.Succinctness is pro-town.
Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available. ~ Gregory Benford-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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@Elmo, not right now, thank you. I'm gonna stick with Sprex. In open 83 it helped with determining that forbiddanlight, Skruffs and Erg0 and Shy Guy (Guardian alt) were all town. I'm being more open about my process here since I don't expect to live long in this game and I want other town players to learn how to use meta to capture scum without cluing the scum in first. If you dig into my posts there you will undoubtibly find evidence of my method. IIRC it was especially important for figuring forbiddenlight out, and how to disarm Shy Guy who replaced in and immediately gunned for me.-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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*ahem* did you miss that she was trying to get me to argueElmo wrote: Spring, why does Adel's mere lack of support get more attention than me shouting that Artem is town?whyI thought the wagon was pseudo-random bullshit? She doesn't seem to want to actually argue why she supports the wagon.-
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Herodotus Black Ops
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What I would expect is that he'd be saying "you're making a bunk case! that's even more evidence that you're scum! Hey look, everyone, I found a scum, let's lynch him! More Spyrex votes please!" I think I would be happy and excited to have caught a scum, and seeing lies would make me more confident that I had done so. Instead of withdrawing, I'd usually want to engage them more so that they would show more tells and maybe they or their buddies would slip some information leading to other scum.Elmo wrote:
His perception, then, would be that he's being blatantly lied about. The almost universal reaction to that is - understandably - outrage mixed with distress, sometimes tinged with blind aggression. So you would expect dead wrong. What reactionHerodotus wrote:it strikes me as odd that Artem is upset about a "bunk" case on him. I'd expect a townie to react differently, especially if he genuinely suspects Spyrex is scum, in which case it's part of Spyrex's job to make bunk cases.wouldyou expect, I wonder? It'd require quite a twisted psyche to be happy or excited that someone was lying to your face, so it beggars belief What you are doing is taking the typical townie reaction and spinning it as scummy when it's obviously nothing of the sort.
Though not everyone reacts in the same way.-
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Artem Mafia Scum
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@SL:
Here's my list of most scummy to least scummy.
Porkens-
After the whole joke ordeal, Porkens has not been contributing much of original content. He had a few posts consisting basically of "Such and such makes me shake my head", "Such and such makes my gut clench". Any kind of scum-hunting that comes from him has been a reiteration of somebody else's thoughts:
-In 209, he is not happy with me not wanting to vote Hero, yet doing so. Point has been previously covered by Hero.
-In 209, mentions Spring's "MOD: scum can communicate?" question. Ok, he was first to mention this. I'll give him that.
-In 226, puts more screws on Adel for promising content. Point has been previously covered by numerous players.
-In 226, identifies Spring as posting nothing but "will re-read" content. Calling out lurkers is hardly original.
-In 226, says that I have not voted or unvoted on my own. Point has been previously covered by SpyreX.
-In 243, asks SL to provide content assuming the mod question has been answered affirmatively. The point has been previously covered by Troll.
-In 259, calls Tajo fence-sitting. Original point.
-In 259, asks me what good the wagon are if they don't end up in a lynch. This is immediately after I explain to Vi what wagons accomplish. The only thing he's doing here is fanning the flame from SpyreX.
Him saying that I don't vote or unvote on my own is a little hypocritical giving that all he's doing is echoing others' sentiments from the sidelines.
His vote on me feels like "Eh. Everybody's voting him. I might as well." and also borders on OMGUS.
Porkens, what point did I miss?
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Tajo and, to a lesser extent, Korts.
Basically active lurkers.
Tajo's 246, which is his biggest "catch up" post basically has the same stuff as Porkens's earlier play: plenty of opinions, very minimal scum-hunting.
Korts is not much better. His posts are full paragraphs instead of one-liners and are sprinkled with some game theory. Other than that, it's mostly opinions. For example, in the post where he votes me, I can't find a single question/point to address in an attempt to defend myself.
Opinions are nice and all but they don't progress the game. Scum-hunting is done via questions, either implicit or explicit. Both players are lacking in that aspect.
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Hero-
Gained a few scummy points with his latest "I'm parking a vote on you. So what? Shouldn't you be happy since you like wagons. Your behavior is inconsistent" post. Went to lurking after the whole ordeal with me. Next to zero scum-hunting.
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SpyreX-
While I still maintain that he's refusing to see the town motivation behind my actions, the fact that his vote is the only one backed by detailed reasons buys him some townie points.
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Spring-
Good posts and attempts at scum-hunting, but several things seem off.
-Still hasn't replied to the question: assume the mod answered yes, what are the connections that you're seeing between players? The further the answer is delayed, the more inclined I am to think that there was no such notice and the question was for show;
-"Lol, scummy" reaction to one of my points. The cynics in some players are wondering if Ecto is pulling a gambit. Why is it so much more ridiculous of me to wonder if you purposely avoided to post to make my meta read on you off? Is it not a valid thing to wonder, especially since you've never warned us about your V/LA?
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The rest of the players give me either a null or a townie read. If you want me to go into detail about any of them, let me know. Otherwise, I'm not planning on town-hunting.pepoel who spel bad and don't know grammer is jerks-
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SpyreX POWERFUL WIZARD
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You just wrote, and I can't believe this:
Here is the list of people I find scummy: The people voting me + a lurker.
I'd still love Adel to explain how MY vote is "a witch hunt" considering even if you disagree I have actual reasons for my vote. And yes, I'm singling myself out because this mystery business has ended with an unexplained vote on me.-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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dude, you are not at lynch -2. This isn't "Why should you vote for him" time, it is "why should he be at -2 without clear and concise cases" time -- and so far you are not helping.SpyreX wrote:You just wrote, and I can't believe this:
Here is the list of people I find scummy: The people voting me + a lurker.
I'd still love Adel to explain how MY vote is "a witch hunt" considering even if you disagree I have actual reasons for my vote. And yes, I'm singling myself out because this mystery business has ended with an unexplained vote on me.
I see a bullshit wagon on a (relatively) weaker player, and a bunch of blather excusing it.
I do not want him to claim, and I do not want anyone else to vote for him right now. I want to clear and concise arguments, or GTFO his wagon.-
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Korts Luddite
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BULLshit. And relating to your later accusation that there is nothing to reply to in my last post-- I accuse you of hypocrisy, wagon fishing and inconsistent voting. Nothing my ass.Artem wrote:Porken's, Tajo's, and Korts's posts fall under this, in my opinion.
Also note that I addressed issues with multiple players; this game is not all about you.
Will post more as I read more extensively.scumchat never die-
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Herodotus Black Ops
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Korts Luddite
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spring rubs me slightly as town just based on the long line of multi-posting, even if it's defensive bar the Artem case.
Let me explain the "wagon fishing". Artem anticipated a vote on SpyreX from me based on a comment that I intended to follow up on some point of discussion with him from earlier, without factoring in that that comment had come before a lot of the actually important pieces of information. I understand that if he believes SpyreX to be scum, he is going to look for support--but he practically invites my vote specifically, without the context of the comment he references.Elmo wrote:Are we detecting a pattern yet, hmm? This is a bad reason for a vote; would you do more than note the possibility of a town-town fight any time soon? "Bandwagon fishing" is a ridiculous tell, on the face of it; he's stated he thinks SpyreX is scum, why would he not want to get other people voting him? You know, the exact thing I did with you in relation to Herod and you didn't suspect me for, yes?
I find Artem's Porkens case lacking, but better than his SpyreX one.scumchat never die-
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SpyreX POWERFUL WIZARD
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If you really need me to detail and resummarize why I think he's scum, fine. I'll get that too you again and cover the same ground again.Adel wrote:dude, you are not at lynch -2. This isn't "Why should you vote for him" time, it is "why should he be at -2 without clear and concise cases" time -- and so far you are not helping.
I see a bullshit wagon on a (relatively) weaker player, and a bunch of blather excusing it.
I do not want him to claim, and I do not want anyone else to vote for him right now. I want to clear and concise arguments, or GTFO his wagon.
My case has been, sans the fact its been stretched and pulled many times, the same "clear and concise" case it was when I laid down my vote:
There's been more since. However, that basis stands.My original Artem vote block wrote: Someone who has been there to snipe and jump on some spurious bandwagons.
Someone who unapologetically wanted a bandwagon for "generating content".
Someone who gave a rather lengthy post explaining in detail why at any given point his reads can change. In selfsame post also gave a page 7 "feeler" list of some townies (but of course not the entire game).
Someone who is justifying this latest move with meta. Sigh. Further, with a sample set of 1. Double Sigh.
Someone who agrees that said meta is weak, apologizes and then votes.
Further, if you think this wagon is such bullshit, why not pull the rabbit out finally and explain this vote on me.
And, weaker player or strong player, the coincidental fact that his list of suspects is every person voting for him + a lurker vote IS noteworthy and IS going to stand out.-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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are you claiming that that is a player-specific scumtell or a universal scumtell?SpyreX wrote:
And, weaker player or strong player, the coincidental fact that his list of suspects is every person voting for him + a lurker vote IS noteworthy and IS going to stand out.-
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SpyreX POWERFUL WIZARD
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I'm saying that the "everyone voting for me + lurker" vote, when taken as part of this larger game, is scummy. Player-specific would require some kind of meta, which I dont have nor care to use, and universals don't exist.
So, instead it is a "circumstantial" (for lack of better word) scumtell.-
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springlullaby Mafia Scum
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@Elmo. The difference between you and Adel is that you have presented argument on why you think Artem is a bad wagon. I think these arguments are a plausible townie stance, thought I don't agree with them. Especially the townie/townie fight. I think people are giving too much credit to that emotional display because 1)'exasperated townie' is actually an easy role to slip in as scum 2)it does not make sense for town to be pissed off at someone they think is scum the way Artem has been.Adel wrote:
*ahem* did you miss that she was trying to get me to argueElmo wrote: Spring, why does Adel's mere lack of support get more attention than me shouting that Artem is town?whyI thought the wagon was pseudo-random bullshit? She doesn't seem to want to actually argue why she supports the wagon.
@Adel. Is there an accusation somewhere in there? To comment on what you are saying, I have already argued why I support the wagon, it is you who are refusing to argue why you do not support it.
Plus, I totally don't get the motivation behind what you are doing here. You say Artem's wagon is bad but you offer neither criticism nor analysis, or even a new direction to take. So yeah, what are you doing exactly?
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1- Factually false, see reply to Porkens.Artem about spring wrote: Good posts and attempts at scum-hunting, but several things seem off.
1-Still hasn't replied to the question: assume the mod answered yes, what are the connections that you're seeing between players? The further the answer is delayed, the more inclined I am to think that there was no such notice and the question was for show;
2-"Lol, scummy" reaction to one of my points. The cynics in some players are wondering if Ecto is pulling a gambit. Why is it so much more ridiculous of me to wonder if you purposely avoided to post to make my meta read on you off? Is it not a valid thing to wonder, especially since you've never warned us about your V/LA?
2- The reason your suggestion is 'lol scummy' is as follow: you are proposing that I, as scum, threw off my meta in the interest of framing you - this is stretching and amounts to conspiracy theory. Tell me, were I scum, what interest do I have not to play to my town meta which garnered a town read from you?
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I like the present state of affairs and my vote remains. I'm however looking forward to Porkens and zorblag's contribution.-
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Porkens Survivor
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Artem:I was far more intersted in the idea of "bandwagons are good because they give pressure and promote discussion" combined with the statement "I have no intention of lynching the guy who's wagon I am on." I think my question to you was similar to, but separate from, what SpyreX was asking/talking about. The point that I don't think you got was that it wasn't necessarily an attack. As far as I believe; wagons are only useful if they have the potential to end in lynches.
Adel:It would be a great time soon to reveal what you've learned from our responses to your survey and why you origionaly voted for SpyreX. As for Artem having a 'crap' case on him; I get plenty of negative vibes and a general over-defensive feel from him. To me, it's obvious that he'd be a decent day 1 lynch. I'm supprised that you've been so vocaly opposed to it. I'm personally not going to put together an in-one-place case; if someone wants to do that it would be fine, but ultimatly unneccesary imo.
Herod's unvote is rediculous, and I can't believe he jumped off the wagon at L-2 to prevent a too-early claim. There ya' go. This is the strongest negative point against Herod I've seen all game.-
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Adel Crystalline Logick
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unvote, vote: Porkens
I guess I'll have to return to Spryx later.-
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Vi Professor Paragon
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Let me clarify, then. This looks like you're trapping Artem so there's literally nothing he can do right; "heads I win, tails you lose".SpyreX 258 wrote:Keep in mind we're past the inquisition. They're questions because questions catch the eye.
I'm not wasting time convincing scum they are scum.
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The way I'm reading springlullaby 263-265, it can be condensed to "Disregard what most people consider as scumtells, as I have no ulterior motives". Seriously?
I do agree with this, though.s-lullaby 263 wrote:It is interesting to me that the reasons you uses to justify reading Porkens and I being from different alignment are arguments that I personally would find to be in favour of there being possible distancing. Early non-game related name dropping + barely justified and lasting vote.
Could you clarify this for me?s-lullaby 263 wrote:Firstly this is technically false, Artem gave me a town read.
I didn't think of it as standard theory before, but nonetheless. Are you above standard theory?s-lullaby 265 wrote:Nice recitation of standard theory.
Who's to say this isn't true? After your vigorous denial of wrongdoing to the point where you seem to be suggesting that you CAN'T feasibly be considered scummy for what you did, that doesn't seem like an issue any more.s-lullaby 265 wrote:What are your arguments in favour of my not just being VLA, and too busy to write my catch up post the two days afterwards?
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I would have been fine with tacking on a sarcastic ^________^ where the semicolon is or something, but are you suggesting that Artem is scummy... for arguing against his own wagon? Are you serious?Herodotus 268 wrote:You're at three votes, and you consider wagons to be pro-town, so you should be happy; again your response looks inconsistent with a town alignment.
To that end, I agree with Elmosarian2.
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Is Troll less scummy, then?Korts 269 wrote:My vote on Troll is outdated. His stance on early game seems an integral part of his playstyle, even if it is borderline anti-town. I'll be watching you closely though.
unvote
Wait, what? I've been putting Artem down as frustrated Town up until now. Reading it again... You seem right. The post before it seemed like it was at terms with Herodotus as well. Artem?Korts 269 wrote:Artem's vote being put down as a "frustration vote" seems a bit of a reach to me; note that the vote came in 220 and the expression of frustration only in 223,
Noted... how?Korts 269 wrote:Elmo 230 effectively calling SpyreX/Artem a town-town debate. Noted.
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Adel 279 wrote:Right now all I see is blather: I do not see a coherent case against Artem.
So is your objection based onAdel 282 wrote:refine you argument into something clear and concise please... otherwise I'll continue to consider your case to be pseudo-random bullshit.substance(i.e. instances where Artem has been understood to be scummy by his attackers) or onstyle(i.e. instances were Artem's attackers have not properly stated what they understand to be scummy)?
Also, what of SpyreX's quote block?Someone who has been there to snipe and jump on some spurious bandwagons.
Someone who unapologetically wanted a bandwagon for "generating content".
Someone who gave a rather lengthy post explaining in detail why at any given point his reads can change. In selfsame post also gave a page 7 "feeler" list of some townies (but of course not the entire game).
Someone who is justifying this latest move with meta. Sigh. Further, with a sample set of 1. Double Sigh.
Someone who agrees that said meta is weak, apologizes and then votes.
Why not?Adel 284 wrote: I'm being more open about my process here sinceI don't expect to live long in this game
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I disagree entirely.Artem 287 wrote:[@Korts 269:]Other than that, it's mostly opinions. For example, in the post where he votes me, I can't find a single question/point to address in an attempt to defend myself.Korts 269 wrote:WAGON FISHING ALERT
MAN YOUR STATIONS
THIS IS NOT A DRILL
Both of these look like good candidates for defenses/responses... if there's anything to defend.Korts 269 wrote:And aren't you just as stubborn, anyway?
Could you precisely define "scumhunting" for me?
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I'm interested in seeing Troll's responses to s-lullaby and especially Korts.Everything you say and do matters. People will respond in ways you may never see. May those responses be what you intend.
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