Mini 792 - Tofu Mafia. Game over!

[Adel]

It would be useful to look though the e games that people had played with Tajo, and identify which ones he was an especially strong player in. That would help eliminate the players within the brackets, or at least point to which ones might have been especially motivated to NK him.

I'm disappointed with the results, but I think it can be taken the next step to see which players here probably have a basis for a high opinion of Tajo's play as town.

repeated to help the people who appear to have missed them.

[Adel]

See, this pushes it over the top. The fixation on meta is eliminating "common" factors:

1.) Tajo could have been seen as a PR playing close to the vest.

As I see it Tajo would be one of 4 or 5 players to meet that criteria.

2.) Tajo was a high-probability target for a cop investigation due to his play and his kill would waste that information.

As I see it Tajo would be one of 3 or 4 players to meet that criteria.

3.) On the flipside, Tajo had minimal chance for a doctor protect versus higher profile players / watcher protection.

As I see it Tajo would be one of 4 or 5 players to meet that criteria.

So what made Tajo special? Meta may provide that answer.

And thats off the top of my head. There is the WIFOM-factor of you obv-killing him / someone setting him up.

I mean, of course "meta" could have played a role but there are plenty of in-game reasons to go for the kill. So, I think you're just not trying.

the thing that is hanging me up is your claim, and your decision to kill.

Combined with the way Hero was rapidly hammered yesterday before I got going, I'm looking at the following narrative as a possibility:

SpyreX is scum, and was expecting me to push a major case against him. He decided to setup a fake claim of Vig, and started the "if I have a gun" claim yesterday. Once this day started, SpyreX saw that there was a second kill (expected if SpryeX is a SK, unexpected if SpryeX is mafia) and SpryeX claimed.

That lack of attention and skepticism his vig claim has drawn is standing out to me.

[SpyreX]

As I see it Tajo would be one of 4 or 5 players to meet that criteria.
As I see it Tajo would be one of 3 or 4 players to meet that criteria.
As I see it Tajo would be one of 4 or 5 players to meet that criteria.

So what made Tajo special? Meta may provide that answer.

And thats off the top of my head. There is the WIFOM-factor of you obv-killing him / someone setting him up.

Yes, he wasn't the only one to fit those critera. I never even pretended to think so.

HOWEVER, my statements were all in direct response to this statement by you:

I think so, unless the kill was just to set me up.

Otherwise, I fail to see why a scum group made up of players who hadn't played with Tajo before would nk him.

It would be useful to look though the e games that people had played with Tajo, and identify which ones he was an especially strong player in. That would help eliminate the players within the brackets, or at least point to which ones might have been especially motivated to NK him.

Which wasn't "meta will help narrow it down" it was "without meta, there was no reason to kill him."

Which I immediately, and with reason, called bullshit on. ASIDE from the obvious fact he was a clear proponent of your lynch - all of the above held true. Which, initially, you disregarded entirely.

the thing that is hanging me up is your claim, and your decision to kill.

Combined with the way Hero was rapidly hammered yesterday before I got going, I'm looking at the following narrative as a possibility:

SpyreX is scum, and was expecting me to push a major case against him. He decided to setup a fake claim of Vig, and started the "if I have a gun" claim yesterday. Once this day started, SpyreX saw that there was a second kill (expected if SpryeX is a SK, unexpected if SpryeX is mafia) and SpryeX claimed.

That lack of attention and skepticism his vig claim has drawn is standing out to me.

So, lets get this straight:

1.) I am prescient scum that knew there was going to be a second kill AND it was on a target I mentioned clearly in twilight AND, due to the above, it wasn't the kill that I, as scum, actually made risking a CC from the actual vig all to set you up and clear myself.

2.) I, as SK, clearly announced my target. I then proceeded to kill that target. I then, unequivocally, both said I wasn't going to kill tonight AND that I wanted no form of protection.

OR:

3.) I am exactly what I say I am. I clearly laid it out the night before. I then, due to #2 above, said that I wasn't going to kill today to make it absolutely clear that I wasn't compulsive vig / SK thereby damning myself if there IS two kills tomorrow.

I'll give you this: I'm pretty sure this is the first concrete thing you've said that revolves directly around the game. It's enough to make Occam roll over in his grave, but its something.

[Adel]

As I see it Tajo would be one of 4 or 5 players to meet that criteria.
As I see it Tajo would be one of 3 or 4 players to meet that criteria.
As I see it Tajo would be one of 4 or 5 players to meet that criteria.

So what made Tajo special? Meta may provide that answer.

And thats off the top of my head. There is the WIFOM-factor of you obv-killing him / someone setting him up.

Yes, he wasn't the only one to fit those critera. I never even pretended to think so.

HOWEVER, my statements were all in direct response to this statement by you:

I think so, unless the kill was just to set me up.

Otherwise, I fail to see why a scum group made up of players who hadn't played with Tajo before would nk him.

It would be useful to look though the e games that people had played with Tajo, and identify which ones he was an especially strong player in. That would help eliminate the players within the brackets, or at least point to which ones might have been especially motivated to NK him.

Which wasn't "meta will help narrow it down" it was "without meta, there was no reason to kill him."

and I stand by that. Are you actually saying that "The player or players who killed him have played with him before" is not very highly probably true?

Which I immediately, and with reason, called bullshit on. ASIDE from the obvious fact he was a clear proponent of your lynch - all of the above held true. Which, initially, you disregarded entirely.

I did not "disregard entirely" I'd already worked past that. Catch up, please.

the thing that is hanging me up is your claim, and your decision to kill.

Combined with the way Hero was rapidly hammered yesterday before I got going, I'm looking at the following narrative as a possibility:

SpyreX is scum, and was expecting me to push a major case against him. He decided to setup a fake claim of Vig, and started the "if I have a gun" claim yesterday. Once this day started, SpyreX saw that there was a second kill (expected if SpryeX is a SK, unexpected if SpryeX is mafia) and SpryeX claimed.

That lack of attention and skepticism his vig claim has drawn is standing out to me.

So, lets get this straight:

1.) I am prescient scum that knew there was going to be a second kill AND it was on a target I mentioned clearly in twilight AND, due to the above, it wasn't the kill that I, as scum, actually made risking a CC from the actual vig all to set you up and clear myself.

As mafia, you wouldn't have expected a second kill, and you would have no way of knowing if there was a vig or a sk in the game... but that wouldn't change your gambit. Another member of your team could eventually claim doc.

You were a likely target for a tracker, and announcing your intended kill choice would be a nice way of covering for your team. Your fakeclaim would protect you.

2.) I, as SK, clearly announced my target. I then proceeded to kill that target. I then, unequivocally, both said I wasn't going to kill tonight AND that I wanted no form of protection.

SKs commonly have NK immunity. Using your kill at the direction of the town will probably be better than no killing. Winning as SK is hard, and assuming you have a NK invulnerability, then you just have to prevent your own lynch, you don't have to worry about being NK'd.

3.) I am exactly what I say I am. I clearly laid it out the night before. I then, due to #2 above, said that I wasn't going to kill today to make it absolutely clear that I wasn't compulsive vig / SK thereby damning myself if there IS two kills tomorrow.

But I don't get why you would choose to kill N1 but choose not to kill N2. That isn't the optimal tactic for a vig. It would be better to lay low, and not kill N1, and kill N2 when your kill would be far less swingy and random.

[Adel]

Also, note that Atrem stood a good chance of being investigated by a cop last night, and had a very low chance of being targeted by a doctor.

[Adel]

I smell a serial killer.

what do you think of Atrem being the mafia kill, and Tajo being the SK kill?

How about Atrem being the SK kill, and Tajo being the mafia kill?

[Zorblag]

Troll did go back and look at what people had said about populartajo and typed up the following post this morning. Troll decided not to post it at the time as after Troll read over it it no seemed to add that much to the game. The topic still be getting some play though so Troll will put it here now. Troll's basic conclusion be that trying to figure out who be responsible for the kill now be like trying to figure out most other night one kills on day two in games Troll has played in, an exercise in WIFOM for the most part. If Adel would like to pursue the meta on connections Troll no would mind seeing the result but this seems to be a topic that be unlikely to bear much of use to Troll at this time. Troll self-reported Troll's experience with populartajo in post 662 when it was brought up the first time but this passed without comment.


************


So here be the last things that Troll can find that people said about populartajo during day one:

lol, when did I say that tajo was scum? I simply wanted him to pay more attention to this game, and give opportunistic scum a chance to wagon with me.

Seriously though, if town, I would shoot either Elmo or Tajo, probably tajo for convenient lurking.

And similar to what I said about tajo, I don't see why it would be tunnelling.

For Korts, the one mention was in the responses to Adel's initial questions. Troll no can find any direct thoughts about populartajo from Korts on day one.

I'm not for the tajo wagon a.t.m.. Primarily because it's being driven by Adel who still hasn't posted her reasons/motivations for a couple of major points.

Scummy (people I'm feeling wishy washy about and potential lynches, or not)

Zorblag - This one is more nebulous and I kinda fear I'm being OMGUSY so I'll make one reply/question post.
Porkens - Weak play and lazy votes, I'm not sure I buy the towntells consisting pretty much exclusively of bravado.
Adel - Scummy with promises of amend, I don't mind being patient a little longer for the delivery, but not too long.
Herodotus - Opaque play, nothing stray too much in scum territory, nothing stray in town. Been weaker lately.
populartajo - General sloppy impression and hard to judge.

For SpyreX it be the name dropping posts. Troll no sees any mention of how suspicious SpyreX finds populartajo on day one.

Troll 455 needs more catching up. taco needs replacement and s-lully needs to exist.

Though the more interesting post by Vi prior to that was:

As far as I can tell - not that I did much looking into it - tajo was (is?) indeed lurking. However, by the time I saw Adel calling him out for it tajo had already responded with his catch-up wall, with which I didn't have many immediate problems. Right now I'm not sure either way on him, though, as that bit where he essentially justified seeing you as the only scummy person in the game is made of hate. And this game is on his second page of most recent posts by him... That said, it's hard for me to hate the first point considering as of now I think YOU are scum.

Troll has talked about Troll's thoughts on populartajo's reactions to Troll. Them boil down to it being worse in Troll's opinion to find Troll more likely to be scum than most in the game because Troll no be obv town to him but still more likely to be town than scum. Troll objected when Troll was accused of fence sitting earlier in the game but Troll will raise the same objection here about populartajo. Troll would actually have been much more comfortable if populartajo was simply able to decide that Troll was acting scummy.

Troll's quote from Elmo no be that infomative but Elmo's stance on populartajo be fairly clear (and consistent.) Elmo found populartajo to be playing his town game day one. Elmo was the only one to express this view day one so far as Troll can tell. Korts, Porkens and SpyreX largely no expressed any opinions at all. Adel's final expressed view be one that could be taken to mean Adel found him likely to be town or that him no had a strong opinion (among other things.) Ectomancer brought the lurking up late in the game and lack of content much earlier; Troll thinks that him was giving a mild negative read. Vi's view seems to be neutral but not thrilled with the focus on Herodotus or lack of content. springlullaby puts populartajo in the scummy category (though last on her list) and Troll thinks that Troll was the one who was most vocal about qualms with populartajo's play.

On the whole, populartajo no seems to have been considered strongly town by any other than Elmo and no seems to have been that suspect compared to others to any beyond Troll. If his kill was pushed through by someone who was familiar with the play it would surprise Troll if it was Elmo that was doing it; that makes Elmo's stance too blatant (Troll recognizes this be WIFOM but it just be unnecessary work on Elmo's part.) Adel's thought that the kill might have been made just to give him trouble seems unlikely as well. There be any number of reasons that the kill could have been chosen but it also looks to Troll like it would have been a safe one to make (populartajo seems unlikely to have been protected given what people were saying) that no would eliminate a strong suspect from many so that be Troll's best guess as to why populartajo was the one to go.

On another note, Troll thinks this was a quote Vi was looking for in post 593.

Sooooo... is Artem scummy, or null, or what for doing basically that?

This was entirely referencing my own method of choosing targets and not letting up until we have material. As far as te 3 go, Spyrex is a null, Porkens is +1 scum and Tajo is +2 scum.

I realize you're on meds (hope you get better, by the way) but why no mention of Artem, even though it is him the original question was about?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Adel]

Troll's quote from Elmo no be that infomative but Elmo's stance on populartajo be fairly clear (and consistent.) Elmo found populartajo to be playing his town game day one. Elmo was the only one to express this view day one so far as Troll can tell. Korts, Porkens and SpyreX largely no expressed any opinions at all. Adel's final expressed view be one that could be taken to mean Adel found him likely to be town or that him no had a strong opinion (among other things.) Ectomancer brought the lurking up late in the game and lack of content much earlier; Troll thinks that him was giving a mild negative read. Vi's view seems to be neutral but not thrilled with the focus on Herodotus or lack of content. springlullaby puts populartajo in the scummy category (though last on her list) and Troll thinks that Troll was the one who was most vocal about qualms with populartajo's play.

On the whole, populartajo no seems to have been considered strongly town by any other than Elmo and no seems to have been that suspect compared to others to any beyond Troll. If his kill was pushed through by someone who was familiar with the play it would surprise Troll if it was Elmo that was doing it; that makes Elmo's stance too blatant (Troll recognizes this be WIFOM but it just be unnecessary work on Elmo's part.)

look at Newbie 770 the last game where Elmo was mafia. Elmo mentioned HowardRoark's probable alignment exactly once during day 1:

Votes for mee, virtually everything past that is probably best dealt with in the BM section, I guess. HEY LOOK, IT'S THE PRINCIPLE OF MY SIG! Another huge-wall-of-text-quoting-hater joins the ranks He seems townish to me, maybe I'm a little biased since I don't know if he's buddying up to me... I think his response to the whole thing is balanced; true, it leaves the possibility of pushing my lynch later if he feels like it, but I think mafia would be more inclined to "play for keeps" with the IC right now. Def townish, imo.

HowardRoark - a Vanilla Townie - was killed Night 1 by Elmo.

[SpyreX]

and I stand by that. Are you actually saying that "The player or players who killed him have played with him before" is not very highly probably true?

As that subset makes up enough of the game that it leaves (assuming 3 scum) a whole whopping one grouping (that involves the least likely scumpair) of course its true.

Its also, at root, worth very little. You've said In 2/3'rds of the remaining game there is probably 1, 2 or 3 scum. Huzzah!

I did not "disregard entirely" I'd already worked past that. Catch up, please.

Nah, I live on page 2 of the thread. Its hard for me to read and all.

Show me where it was brought up by you directly BEFORE your statement that I bolded.

As mafia, you wouldn't have expected a second kill, and you would have no way of knowing if there was a vig or a sk in the game... but that wouldn't change your gambit. Another member of your team could eventually claim doc.

You were a likely target for a tracker, and announcing your intended kill choice would be a nice way of covering for your team. Your fakeclaim would protect you.

So, we're clear. If I'm mafia the mafia kill was artem and ? -who has kept their mouth shut thus far- killed tajo. They also were totally cool with me claiming vig and not ccing.

As for not expecting a second kill. Yea, if I was mafia before the fact we had two kills sure that makes sense. Afterwards, however, me claiming one of the kills / not immediately getting cc'd is high-risk / low reward.

SKs commonly have NK immunity. Using your kill at the direction of the town will probably be better than no killing. Winning as SK is hard, and assuming you have a NK invulnerability, then you just have to prevent your own lynch, you don't have to worry about being NK'd.

I'm not killing tonight. No matter how much begging / etc there is. Unless you're NOW going to say I'm a kill-controlled bulletproof SK that should knock it right off the plate.

But I don't get why you would choose to kill N1 but choose not to kill N2. That isn't the optimal tactic for a vig. It would be better to lay low, and not kill N1, and kill N2 when your kill would be far less swingy and random.

Because I thought he was scum. Optimal schmoptimal. If I was a single-shot dayvig I'd probably use it day 1 if I had someone I thought was scum.

Also, note that Atrem stood a good chance of being investigated by a cop last night, and had a very low chance of being targeted by a doctor.

True and if there is a cop and IF they investigated him. My bad. Wont happen tonight, promise.

[Adel]

So far, I have
Artem
Adel
as most likely town

and had Elmo next on his list.

Tajo named Elmo as the most likely town, and Atrem ddin't announce that anyone was probable town.

Tajo listed Adel, Zorblag and Spring as most likely scum.

Hero listed Vi, SpyreX and PT as scummy, and Korts, Spring and Zorblag as too quiet.

Atrem listed Porkens or Ecto as his vig target if Hero flipped town, and was suspicious of me.

[Adel]

and I stand by that. Are you actually saying that "The player or players who killed him have played with him before" is not very highly probably true?

As that subset makes up enough of the game that it leaves (assuming 3 scum) a whole whopping one grouping (that involves the least likely scumpair) of course its true.

Its also, at root, worth very little. You've said In 2/3'rds of the remaining game there is probably 1, 2 or 3 scum. Huzzah!

as a starting point, and I've pointed out what the next step is to help narrow down the list.

I did not "disregard entirely" I'd already worked past that. Catch up, please.

Nah, I live on page 2 of the thread. Its hard for me to read and all.

Show me where it was brought up by you directly BEFORE your statement that I bolded.

please reformulate this question into something I understand. I have trouble reading and all.

As mafia, you wouldn't have expected a second kill, and you would have no way of knowing if there was a vig or a sk in the game... but that wouldn't change your gambit. Another member of your team could eventually claim doc.

You were a likely target for a tracker, and announcing your intended kill choice would be a nice way of covering for your team. Your fakeclaim would protect you.

So, we're clear. If I'm mafia the mafia kill was artem and ? -who has kept their mouth shut thus far- killed tajo. They also were totally cool with me claiming vig and not ccing.

yes, which means that there either isn't a vig, or there is a vig that is playing it very cool.

As for not expecting a second kill. Yea, if I was mafia before the fact we had two kills sure that makes sense. Afterwards, however, me claiming one of the kills / not immediately getting cc'd is high-risk / low reward.

you claimed the person that you killed. What you are lying about is your alignment. Why would that force a cc?

SKs commonly have NK immunity. Using your kill at the direction of the town will probably be better than no killing. Winning as SK is hard, and assuming you have a NK invulnerability, then you just have to prevent your own lynch, you don't have to worry about being NK'd.

I'm not killing tonight. No matter how much begging / etc there is. Unless you're NOW going to say I'm a kill-controlled bulletproof SK that should knock it right off the plate.

how is this an optimal tactic for a vig again?

But I don't get why you would choose to kill N1 but choose not to kill N2. That isn't the optimal tactic for a vig. It would be better to lay low, and not kill N1, and kill N2 when your kill would be far less swingy and random.

Because I thought he was scum. Optimal schmoptimal. If I was a single-shot dayvig I'd probably use it day 1 if I had someone I thought was scum.

so your defense is that you are bad at mafia?

Also, note that Atrem stood a good chance of being investigated by a cop last night, and had a very low chance of being targeted by a doctor.

True and if there is a cop and IF they investigated him. My bad. Wont happen tonight, promise.

"bad at mafia" defense part 2?

[Adel]

But I don't get why you would choose to kill N1 but choose not to kill N2. That isn't the optimal tactic for a vig. It would be better to lay low, and not kill N1, and kill N2 when your kill would be far less swingy and random.

Because I thought he was scum. Optimal schmoptimal. If I was a single-shot dayvig I'd probably use it day 1 if I had someone I thought was scum.

Also, note that Atrem stood a good chance of being investigated by a cop last night, and had a very low chance of being targeted by a doctor.

True and if there is a cop and IF they investigated him. My bad. Wont happen tonight, promise.

why Atrem and not Adel or Porkens or Vi or Ecto or Tajo? We'd just lynched a townie? Do you think that mafia are more likely to not have been on Hero's wagon?

[Elmo]

It's really weird how Herod stuck at 3/4 votes for a long time, then suddenly got the last 3 really quickly. It happened right as I started going hard at Korts, too. Timezones are my local British Summertime.

I start really attacking Korts hard in post 450 at Mon Jun 01, 2009 12:59 pm.
Ectomancer puts vote 5 of 7 on in post 470 at Mon Jun 01, 2009 7:37 pm.
SpyreX puts 6 of 7 on in post 476 at Mon Jun 01, 2009 8:13 pm.
Porkens hammers in post 496 at Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:16 am.

So that's from four votes to lynch in less than six hours. That's an anomaly. I don't know what to make of it. It would be the Post Hoc fallacy to conclude it

must

be caused by my attack on Korts, but can't help but feel it's something to note. Maybe I'm chewing static, I don't know.

I'm laying off my Korts hate for a while (don't know if this is wise), but if DGB flips scum at some future point, then the survivors of those two or three need serious grilling.

[Adel]

However, you are all but saying you think Elmo and Troll are good scum picks but not giving reasons WHY. Meta isn't a reason. What have they done in this game that would lend credence to this?

I was pointing out that the simplistic criteria some of you seem to be using to judge alignment (like "gives reasons" and "seems logical") will not identify Elmo and Troll as scum in games where they are scum.

[Adel]

@Elmo, I missed that. I think that is an important question to ask:

Why was Hero hammered so quickly?

[Adel]

this was the last vote, before the three votes that lynched Hero:

1.) You are both scum and you are, for some reason, connecting yourself subconciously.
2.) You are scum and are laying a groundwork for a later Adel lynch.
3.) You are both masons (which really means you're scum I swear).

1.) I would know better.
2.) My mentions of Adel probably do not support that.
3.) And this is the reason why I asked. Mentioning another player a lot but deciding they are not fos- or vote-worthy is probably a mason tell. Are Adel and I masons? There is no way I'm going to answer that.

But you are role-fishing.

unvote
vote: SpyreX

I'll have to re-check, but I think I'd also be equally inclined to lynch Vi.

unvote, vote: SpyreX

for mafia or Sk, I'm not buying the vig claim, but it is inspired.

[Ectomancer]

I'm sorry, what don't you follow?
Are you that naive, now, really.

I don't understand what you're referring to by "coaching". I've only seen the term used maybe twice and the quote you gave doesn't seem to match up. No comment about naivete

I mean coaching defined as trying to influence a buddy's play.
i.e. You commenting on Adel 'pulling strings' followed by 'I don't think it's necessary'.

The comment in itself kinda don't fit in your scenario of yourself trying to determine Adel's alignment between the lines. Giving hints as to how you think she should act kinda defeat the purpose of observation, no?

I'm trying to follow this part. Are you saying Vi is coaching Adel to not pull strings, or Vi is coaching a partner to let Adel pull the strings she is tugging, or, not or what? I'm not quite sure where you are standing exactly. Please clarify.

Why did you decide to kill last night? Why didn't you decide not to kill last night?

Because I thought he was scum? Why the hell wouldn't I kill?

Exactly

@Spyrex - I can see where there were different tacts, but my hackles were raised, and at least Troll seemed to get a similiar impression. It was something I wanted nipped in the bud.

[SpyreX]

I'll leave the list talk alone for now and get to the other business at hand

please reformulate this question into something I understand. I have trouble reading and all.

You've said you didn't "completely disregard" the standard reasons why tajo would be a kill choice and said it HAD to be because of meta.

I then went, no, bullshit it most definitely does not and gave a list of reasons that made sense for why he could be a kill choice regardless.

You're saying you worked past that. I'm saying show how you worked past that, in game, BEFORE I called bullshit because I sure don't remember it happening.

yes, which means that there either isn't a vig, or there is a vig that is playing it very cool.

So if there is a vig playing it very cool why in the hell would they as a vig coming out now all but guarantees I'd be scum of somesort? You're going to snipe at me about optimal play and this is alright?

And if there isn't a vig I am either mafia that is counting on that fact OR a BP SK that is hoping there isn't a cop and I get to skate to lylo from claiming at the start of day 2... that then proceeded to get immersed in attacking you (which if you are NOT scum is going to really increase the chance of my getting investigated).

Course, that must mean I am a BP / Investigation Immune / Controlled Killing SK. Right?

you claimed the person that you killed. What you are lying about is your alignment. Why would that force a cc?

Then you are saying both kills are from anti-town sources. I want this clear.

how is this an optimal tactic for a vig again?
so your defense is that you are bad at mafia?
"bad at mafia" defense part 2?

Yep. I am terrible at mafia. So bad, in fact, that I unironically am part of a group called Bad at Mafia.

The hell is this?

If this is what its boiled down to - peace out. I'm done with this game for a bit. Ad hom's are awesome and all but I'm not dealing with it.

My vote isn't moving barring some space miracle of science. Do what you will.

[Adel]

I'll leave the list talk alone for now and get to the other business at hand

please reformulate this question into something I understand. I have trouble reading and all.

You've said you didn't "completely disregard" the standard reasons why tajo would be a kill choice and said it HAD to be because of meta.

I then went, no, bullshit it most definitely does not and gave a list of reasons that made sense for why he could be a kill choice regardless.

You're saying you worked past that. I'm saying show how you worked past that, in game, BEFORE I called bullshit because I sure don't remember it happening.

Without engaging in open power role speculation, the only thing that separates Tajo from other players as a NK candidate is 1) setting me up for a lynch and 2) players who had a strong-town meta on him.

yes, which means that there either isn't a vig, or there is a vig that is playing it very cool.

So if there is a vig playing it very cool why in the hell would they as a vig coming out now all but guarantees I'd be scum of somesort? You're going to snipe at me about optimal play and this is alright?

And if there isn't a vig I am either mafia that is counting on that fact OR a BP SK that is hoping there isn't a cop and I get to skate to lylo from claiming at the start of day 2... that then proceeded to get immersed in attacking you (which if you are NOT scum is going to really increase the chance of my getting investigated).

Course, that must mean I am a BP / Investigation Immune / Controlled Killing SK. Right?

you claimed the person that you killed. What you are lying about is your alignment. Why would that force a cc?

Then you are saying both kills are from anti-town sources. I want this clear.

yes, I think that is the most likely scenario, hence my vote on you.

how is this an optimal tactic for a vig again?
so your defense is that you are bad at mafia?
"bad at mafia" defense part 2?

Yep. I am terrible at mafia. So bad, in fact, that I unironically am part of a group called Bad at Mafia.

The hell is this?

If this is what its boiled down to - peace out. I'm done with this game for a bit. Ad hom's are awesome and all but I'm not dealing with it.

My vote isn't moving barring some space miracle of science. Do what you will.

nice cop out. bye bye. Killing N1 and then refusing to kill N2 is not optimal vig play. I think that Hero's rapid lynch + town flip went a long way towards clearing Atrem.

one of my last post from the last day:

If I had a bullet and Hero flips town I'd shoot: Adel
If I had a bullet and Hero flips scum I'd shoot: Adel

WTF!

Talk about a no-win!

H-Scum: Porkens
H-Town: SpryeX

SpryeX went into this day with guns blazing for me. I'm calling gambit.

[Adel]

Tajo mentioned a few players but the focus of his hunting had a singular target: Adel.

fact check this, everyone. To me it doesn't appear to be true.

I can't decide if this is an elaborate setup to get Adel mislynched or sooo obvious we go around the WIFOM horn 3 times.

On the other front of this, Tajo mentioned suspicion specifically of two other players: Zorblag and Spring. The zigzag attack to protect themselves for suspicion and setup an Adel mislynch? I can't decide.

I call this projection. There is an elaborate setup to lynch me, but it is by SpryeX.

[Ectomancer]

On another note, Troll thinks this was a quote Vi was looking for in post 593.

Sooooo... is Artem scummy, or null, or what for doing basically that?

This was entirely referencing my own method of choosing targets and not letting up until we have material. As far as te 3 go, Spyrex is a null, Porkens is +1 scum and Tajo is +2 scum.

I realize you're on meds (hope you get better, by the way) but why no mention of Artem, even though it is him the original question was about?

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

This one continuing to pop up is chafing. Without going to quote pyramids, I believe I was giving my own defense for sticking to my guns on my early case(s). Vi asked me if Artem was scummy for doing that, which baffles me because as I explained,

I

was talking about

me

, and it is easily read in this game where I was doing this, and in fact DGB mentioned it about me when replacing in to the game. Where was I talking about Artem?
If Vi is trying to say that Artem tried an opening case, but then backed off without getting any material, then I guess I missed it (and you could have been clearer, like quoting it) and wants to know whether it is scummy or null? The answer is exactly the same as the argument I made! If you don't stick with it, you

fail

at game starting and if you aren't going to stick with your weak opening case and just give up an "I was trying to start the game", all you did was waste time!
Was this some kind of an attempt at a reverse verbal trap by you Vi? Like if I said he was scummy for dropping it, I was somehow trying to say I was pro-town for sticking to my guns?

Weird and even weirder constantly necroing it.

An ability to start games is alignment neutral. I happen to think I'm good at it, but along with it goes dealing with the pressure from doing it. If you can't, don't bother with a weak attempt followed by an "I was just trying to start the game"...grrr

[Elmo]

Tajo mentioned a few players but the focus of his hunting had a singular target: Adel.

Really? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't have that impression from memory. It's not unfair, he had Adel under "Neutral slightly scum" in 247 and I wouldn't be surprised if 'e shared joint #2 with Zorblag, but his focus seemed to be very much on Herod.

every time I look a cat dies.

ONOES =O

DGB: Why Porkens?

It has occurred to me that a mislynch + misvig + nightkill puts us at 6 alive. It depends on the details, but I think SpyreX shouldn't shoot if we mislynch today. It might be useful to shoot if we lynch right; that needs calculation, and is probably getting ahead of things, because it'd depend on who we lynch.

Ecto seems quite townish today. Tajo had him at prob town, as well. Hmm.

[Adel]

ps for SpryeX: you can't both call your group "bad at mafia" and then call me saying "what is this, the 'bad at mafia' defense" an ad hominem attack as soon as I point out the huge gaping holes in your fake claim. You did not address why you thought it was better to vig night one rather than night two. Your defense amounted to "Because I thought he was scum. Optimal schmoptimal. If I was a single-shot dayvig I'd probably use it day 1 if I had someone I thought was scum." and "True and if there is a cop and IF they investigated him. My bad. Wont happen tonight, promise." which amounts to claiming to subscribe to horrible tactics as vig, uses "my bad" as the defense to the same #2 reason you thought Tajo was killed by scum, and doesn't do anything to explain why you thought Atrem was scum after the Hero-town flip.

Please explain why the Hero town-flip made you more confident that Atrem was scum. Please explain why you thought that killing N1 was a good idea, and in more detain then "I thought Atrem was scum."

[SpyreX]

I'll make this good because this is gonna be my last post for a bit.

ps for SpryeX: you can't both call your group "bad at mafia" and then call me saying "what is this, the 'bad at mafia' defense" an ad hominem attack as soon as I point out the huge gaping holes in your fake claim. You did not address why you thought it was better to vig night one rather than night two. Your defense amounted to "Because I thought he was scum. Optimal schmoptimal. If I was a single-shot dayvig I'd probably use it day 1 if I had someone I thought was scum." and "True and if there is a cop and IF they investigated him. My bad. Wont happen tonight, promise." which amounts to claiming to subscribe to horrible tactics as vig, uses "my bad" as the defense to the same #2 reason you thought Tajo was killed by scum, and doesn't do anything to explain why you thought Atrem was scum after the Hero-town flip.

You like to meta so much. Check my games. If you think I'm actually saying "ohh, whoops I am just bad at this game." get your proof.

No, instead as part of our argument you opted to go: You, SpyreX, are bad at this game because your play isn't "optimal". Not, SpyreX is scum because this play benefits scum more than town. Simply, that I am bad at the game because what I did didn't fall into your worldview (which, of course, is the ironic part of "Bad at Mafia").

So, if you are scum, like I think you are.. sure, that's part of self-preservation. However, regardless: get fucked. Saying that

I

am bad at the game or variations of "learn to read" is the quickest way to suck all the fun out of it.

Although, I'll give you this. I was lying about something. I'm only a 1-shot vidge. Thats why I'm not shooting tonight - or ever again. I was

hoping

to draw a kill and use my ability as best as I could. You can meta that too if you want. There's multiple references to it too in this game.

So, lynch one of us. I dont care. If you lynch me tomorrow when Adel goes "ohh gee my left-field theories that I used to try and push this lynch were wrong" you'll get lynched. 1-1 is fine.

The only reason I'm not replacing out is, well, I dont replace out. Maybe some time to cool my jets will help but as it sits I could care less right now.

[Adel]

as a one-shot vig, why would you use your kill the first night possible, instead of waiting until a later night when you would have a better shot of killing accurately?
Why did the Hero town-flip made you more confident that Atrem was scum?