Mini 792 - Tofu Mafia. Game over!

[Adel]

wiki pages are primarily used for bragging and player meta creation. You've built a meta that states that you "play for fun" rather than "playing to win" which is used to excuse you sub-optimal play, and you've built a meta of hating meta (albeit full of exceptions exceptions weasel words) so that you can ignore that part of play. Clever.

..what? Where/how/what the hell do you get that I dont "play to win" from?

BaM was founded on Tuesday, April 14th by Mafia players Porkens and SpyreX. The BaM team is dedicated to representing a mature, respectful, and enjoyable way to play the game.

playing to win is not inherently respectful (you neglect the exploitation of stress and psychological tells) or enjoyable (other than the feeling you get from winning, in the meantime it is too much hard work)

for all these exceptions: go for it. Show em. Show that I am secretly all about the meta and this is all an elaborate ruse.

I guess I can be a little more clear with my distaste of gut and meta.

Of course I use them. Everyone does when they play to some level. However, my distaste is when the analysis process stops at this point. I've had gut reads and then went back and looked and, not surprisingly, found other points of play to 'back' my gut read.

The same goes for meta - if someone is playing differently I'll look and see what the difference is and how its affecting the game.

Meta defenses are blah all the time as far as I can tell.

MD thread: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 12#1403012

For bonus points: show how this has anything to do with anything at hand.

you state that meta defenses are invalid.

[Adel]

For bonus points: show how this has anything to do with anything at hand.

you state that meta defenses (like "I've done the same action in a previous game") are invalid, but looking for differences between games is something to do.

You've overstated your actual objection to metas in this game (always bad, all of the time) used your meta to excuse your objection to all metas.

[SpyreX]

playing to win is not inherently respectful (you neglect the exploitation of stress and psychological tells) or enjoyable (other than the feeling you get from winning, in the meantime it is too much hard work)

Nor is it inherently disrespectful. If you really think that statement somehow means "I am not playing to win" I can't help you.

you state that meta defenses are invalid.

I guess I can be a little more clear with my distaste of gut and meta.

Of course I use them. Everyone does when they play to some level. However, my distaste is when the analysis process stops at this point. I've had gut reads and then went back and looked and, not surprisingly, found other points of play to 'back' my gut read.

The same goes for meta - if someone is playing differently I'll look and see what the difference is and how its affecting the game.

Meta defenses are blah all the time as far as I can tell.

I'm really not sure what you're aimin for here. Meta is retarded and any form of "this is because of META" is retarded. If, due to playing with someone, I see something different about their play it may force me to go back and reread and find actual for real reasons that their play is off.

So, yes. Meta is retarded. I did say meta defenses are also retarded.

You win?

[Zorblag]

So first off, Troll did see that SpyreX was indicating that him only had one shot at the start of today which be why Troll said Troll be inclined to wait another day to deal with him (so that Troll could see if there was a second kill tonight.) Troll at this time has no intention to vote for SpyreX this day.

Troll has been trying to figure out what Adel be up to today. Troll thinks that the idea that both Adel and SpyreX be town be somewhat plausible but Adel's poking at Troll has been done in a way that no be particularly reassuring. Troll no be the sort to take much offense when others find problems with Troll's play but here be some of what has Troll on edge.

Adel never did get around to giving the reasons that Vi and Troll were likely to be mafia together but it was implied that voting patterns were at least part of it by:

[@voting Zorblag:]

does anyone else see why?

Does it have to do with the vote count analysis and being in your bracketed group of meta-players?

[@voting Zorblag:]

does anyone else see why?

Does it have to do with being in your bracketed group of meta-players?

nope

Troll altered the quote tags on the second one just a bit to make it easier to work with but the omission be clear. Troll would very much like to see the case that Adel to verify that it existed at the very least and check for strength. Troll realizes that Adel no be pushing it now but a potential argument could be made Troll thinks.

@Adel, if you think Vi and Troll are scum together, why did you choose to vote Troll over Vi?

Troll has played 5 games as scum, and won 4. He is the more threatening scum player.

That be true. Troll also has yet to lose a game as town (Troll has three wins and two abandonded games) which Troll be fairly certain that Adel knows as well. Adel does be voting for Troll at the time but Troll's record indicates that Troll be a dangerous mafia member or a helpful town member and without details for the case on Troll this statement feels like it be a substitution for a case.

Of course, really Troll's record be much better than Troll's skill at for both teams and it be due in largest part to the other teams playing poorly rather than anything exceptional on Troll's part. It be a pretty tiny sample which Adel knows; it be all him had to work with and Vi's record as scum be even smaller but that no makes it a strong indicator of anything.

Elmo and Troll seem pro-town to many players, but looking at their games as scum I think demonstrates that the reasons why some players here think they are town are about the same as the mistaken townies in thier games as scum.

The grouping with Elmo here be interesting. Many have said that them think that Elmo be town, Troll no thinks that Troll actually looks pro-town to that many at this time (or when the statement was made.) Again, Troll recognizes that Adel was still voting for Troll when this was said and that him had a reason to emphasize the reasons not to trust Troll but this one seems invented as applied to Troll. Perhaps Troll was wrong and others did think that Troll was likely to be town but the only one Troll particularly remembers saying that was Artem (and Troll complained about the reasons him gave with Troll's last post on day one.)

Troll supposes that the trouble Troll has here be that Adel be putting on supports to a case against Troll without presenting the case itself and the supports being given no be so clear cut as them being presented as. Again, it would help Troll much if Troll knew why Adel thought Vi and Troll were likely scum partners so Troll could see the foundation for this other stuff. Without that it seems that Adel be trying to make Troll look like dangerous scum based on exaggerations of things that have happened in other games.

Beyond this, Troll did take a look at NG 770 (the one where Elmo said that Howard Roark's play was pro-town) to see how applicable it be. There Elmo made the statement very early in the game before Howard Roark had said much at all. As the day continued there was very little suspicion of Howard Roark by other players and Elmo's stated reason for killing him was that him was the strongest player that was unlikely to be protected by the doc. In this game Elmo was indicating that populartajo was town towards the end of the day, others had expressed suspicion of him and Troll feels that him played a much less helpful game here than Howard Roark did in the other game. Troll still feels that it be unlikely that Elmo would have the primary one who pushed for a populartajo kill last night. Mind you, Troll no be saying that Elmo no could be in the mafia because of this; just that populartajo's dying no raises his chances of being scum in Troll's opinion.

@Ectomancer, Troll should probably be clear here:

@Spyrex - I can see where there were different tacts, but my hackles were raised, and at least Troll seemed to get a similiar impression. It was something I wanted nipped in the bud.

Troll just pointed out that Adel seemed to be doing something along those lines. Troll no had SpyreX in mind so much.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Adel]

"retarded" is an inherently disrespectful term. Attaching that word to techniques I believe in is an ad ad hominem attack you've made several times now. Telling me to go get fucked is not respectful.

Asking if your defense amounted to "bad at mafia" when you started a group

with that very name

is not an ad hominem.

context:

But I don't get why you would choose to kill N1 but choose not to kill N2. That isn't the optimal tactic for a vig. It would be better to lay low, and not kill N1, and kill N2 when your kill would be far less swingy and random.

Because I thought he was scum.

Optimal schmoptimal.

If I was a single-shot dayvig I'd probably use it day 1 if I had someone I thought was scum.

so your defense is that you are bad at mafia?

Also, note that Atrem stood a good chance of being investigated by a cop last night, and had a very low chance of being targeted by a doctor.

True

and if there is a cop and IF they investigated him.

My bad.

Wont happen tonight, promise.

"bad at mafia" defense part 2?

The decent into incivility was all your own.

I am not a civil player much of the time, but I do not claim to be.

[Zorblag]

If Adel did have a decent case for Zorblag and Vi being scum together in mind when he voted Troll earlier then Troll be inclined to listen to lean towards the two misguided town players take on Adel and SpyreX. Were that the case Troll would certainly think that Porkens be worth looking at which has the advantage of him already getting attention from others. Troll would also be happy enough staying with springlullaby. Given what springlullaby's current focus and that (and also coupled with Troll's previous take on how Vi interacted with Troll's play yesterday) Troll has little interest in voting for Vi at this time. These seem to be the ones that people be looking at just now.

If Adel no had a case to present for Troll and Vi being scum together (or another reason to be acting how him was which Troll thought might be the case at the time) then Troll has enough problems with how Adel went about the first part of this day that Troll be less inclined to think that him just be hung up on parts of SpyreX's play that no bother Troll at this time and instead be attempting to confuse the play this day. Troll would probably vote for Adel were that the situation.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[SpyreX]

Are you meta? How could my saying meta is retarded be construed as "You, Adel, the person, are retarded."

In contrast:

so

your

defense is that

you

are bad at mafia?

Is directed specifically to me, SpyreX, the player.

The name, if you see no irony in naming yourself Bad at Mafia on all levels, doesn't change one whit that that is an attack on me directly as a player.

As for telling you to get fucked? No. That wasn't respectful. That, however, came after you said "welp your just bad at mafia." That is a visceral response to your actions towards me.

As for the bolded.. cool?

ANYWHO, two legitimate questions:

1.) If I, in fact, was lying about my feelings towards meta - what was the scum motivation and scum gain considering who has died?

2.) If you, in fact, are town why did you not notice/care/say anything about how often you were mentioned by Herod contextually?

[Ectomancer]

Adel, why would you vote Spyrex before Porkens?

This.

[Adel]

Troll has been trying to figure out what Adel be up to today. Troll thinks that the idea that both Adel and SpyreX be town be somewhat plausible but Adel's poking at Troll has been done in a way that no be particularly reassuring. Troll no be the sort to take much offense when others find problems with Troll's play but here be some of what has Troll on edge.

Adel never did get around to giving the reasons that Vi and Troll were likely to be mafia together but it was implied that voting patterns were at least part of it by:

[@voting Zorblag:]

does anyone else see why?

Does it have to do with the vote count analysis and being in your bracketed group of meta-players?

[@voting Zorblag:]

does anyone else see why?

Does it have to do with being in your bracketed group of meta-players?

nope

Troll altered the quote tags on the second one just a bit to make it easier to work with but the omission be clear. Troll would very much like to see the case that Adel to verify that it existed at the very least and check for strength. Troll realizes that Adel no be pushing it now but a potential argument could be made Troll thinks.

it wasn't an especially strong case. You stayed off of all strong wagon day 1, and you and him voted each other early in the game, which I generally take as a possible indication of scum distancing. Vi was so eager to mention your name day 1, I wanted to judge his reaction (and yours) by being named as a group together. Sadly, the signal:noise ratio (much of it coming from me as I attempt to defend myself) drowned out that whole approach.

@Adel, if you think Vi and Troll are scum together, why did you choose to vote Troll over Vi?

Troll has played 5 games as scum, and won 4. He is the more threatening scum player.

That be true. Troll also has yet to lose a game as town (Troll has three wins and two abandonded games) which Troll be fairly certain that Adel knows as well. Adel does be voting for Troll at the time but Troll's record indicates that Troll be a dangerous mafia member or a helpful town member and without details for the case on Troll this statement feels like it be a substitution for a case.

Of course, really Troll's record be much better than Troll's skill at for both teams and it be due in largest part to the other teams playing poorly rather than anything exceptional on Troll's part. It be a pretty tiny sample which Adel knows; it be all him had to work with and Vi's record as scum be even smaller but that no makes it a strong indicator of anything.[/quote]
you are a better writer than he is. You have a natural advantage. Plus, I think that you are either a shaft.ed or Xyl alt, or a real life friend of one of them. I expect you to be a superior player to Vi.

Elmo and Troll seem pro-town to many players, but looking at their games as scum I think demonstrates that the reasons why some players here think they are town are about the same as the mistaken townies in thier games as scum.

The grouping with Elmo here be interesting. Many have said that them think that Elmo be town, Troll no thinks that Troll actually looks pro-town to that many at this time (or when the statement was made.) Again, Troll recognizes that Adel was still voting for Troll when this was said and that him had a reason to emphasize the reasons not to trust Troll but this one seems invented as applied to Troll. Perhaps Troll was wrong and others did think that Troll was likely to be town but the only one Troll particularly remembers saying that was Artem (and Troll complained about the reasons him gave with Troll's last post on day one.)

Troll supposes that the trouble Troll has here be that Adel be putting on supports to a case against Troll without presenting the case itself and the supports being given no be so clear cut as them being presented as. Again, it would help Troll much if Troll knew why Adel thought Vi and Troll were likely scum partners so Troll could see the foundation for this other stuff. Without that it seems that Adel be trying to make Troll look like dangerous scum based on exaggerations of things that have happened in other games.

you are a careful poster, and you've had relatively little interaction with other players. I need mroe to work with to get an handle on determining your alignment.

Beyond this, Troll did take a look at NG 770 (the one where Elmo said that Howard Roark's play was pro-town) to see how applicable it be. There Elmo made the statement very early in the game before Howard Roark had said much at all. As the day continued there was very little suspicion of Howard Roark by other players and Elmo's stated reason for killing him was that him was the strongest player that was unlikely to be protected by the doc. In this game Elmo was indicating that populartajo was town towards the end of the day, others had expressed suspicion of him and Troll feels that him played a much less helpful game here than Howard Roark did in the other game. Troll still feels that it be unlikely that Elmo would have the primary one who pushed for a populartajo kill last night. Mind you, Troll no be saying that Elmo no could be in the mafia because of this; just that populartajo's dying no raises his chances of being scum in Troll's opinion.

thank you very much for taking the time to follow up on that. I think that town success depends upon people doing research and finding successful ways to collaborate and process information without trusting each other.

[Adel]

Adel, why would you vote Spyrex before Porkens?

This.

@DGB: SpyreX has already claimed. It is always worth poking a claim to see if it holds up.

[Adel]

1.) If I, in fact, was lying about my feelings towards meta - what was the scum motivation and scum gain considering who has died?

as scum with an especially high opinion of me, I expect that you (as scum) wanted to discredit me and my approach starting with page 1, and then after hero named me as town, and you couldn't count of me not having doctor protection.

I think one of your other scum buddies (Ecto?) named me as their target, "if" they had a gun.

2.) If you, in fact, are town why did you not notice/care/say anything about how often you were mentioned by Herod contextually?

day 1 was cut short by you and porkens rapidly lynching hero without even giving hero a chance to claim.

[SpyreX]

as scum with an especially high opinion of me, I expect that you (as scum) wanted to discredit me and my approach starting with page 1, and then after hero named me as town, and you couldn't count of me not having doctor protection.

I think one of your other scum buddies (Ecto?) named me as their target, "if" they had a gun.

If that is the case then any other game I have said meta is retarded is a buildup to pull this maneuver here?

day 1 was cut short by you and porkens rapidly lynching hero without even giving hero a chance to claim.

If

I

noticed it as a third party to the business how did you, who was being referenced, not notice it beforehand?

If someone had mentioned me damn near 100 times and we had no connection and I was town you can be sure I would have said SOMETHING about it.

How is that even an answer to my question though?

[Adel]

as scum with an especially high opinion of me, I expect that you (as scum) wanted to discredit me and my approach starting with page 1, and then after hero named me as town, and you couldn't count of me not having doctor protection.

I think one of your other scum buddies (Ecto?) named me as their target, "if" they had a gun.

If that is the case then any other game I have said meta is retarded is a buildup to pull this maneuver here?

you generally say stuff like "Meta is, as its normally used, retarded. Meta can not and should not be a defense for scummy playstyles - why encourage it? Instead, kill them without remorse until they shape up. Meta can, and isn't, used as 'icing' on a case - if you see a set of scummy actions, and due to playing with them or other play see the same set of results - say so. Otherwise, drop it. I hate having meta arguments every damn game."

not that all meta is retared.

Where have you said that all meta is retarded?

day 1 was cut short by you and porkens rapidly lynching hero without even giving hero a chance to claim.

If

I

noticed it as a third party to the business how did you, who was being referenced, not notice it beforehand?

If someone had mentioned me damn near 100 times and we had no connection and I was town you can be sure I would have said SOMETHING about it.

noticing something, and picking the right time to comment on it are two separate tests of mafia proficiency.

[Adel]

it wasn't an especially strong case. You stayed off of all strong wagon day 1, and you and him voted each other early in the game, which I generally take as a possible indication of scum distancing. Vi was so eager to mention your name day 1, I wanted to judge his reaction (and yours) by being named as a group together. Sadly, the signal:noise ratio (much of it coming from me as I attempt to defend myself) drowned out that whole approach.

also, I didn't want to directly vote for him due to the OMGUS drama that would probably follow. He is another player that has been gunning for me all game. I can't tell if he is just a giant killer, or if his arguments are sincere. I voted him as soon as I saw a contradiction clear enough to base a vote upon.... and then the thread got hella noisy.

[SpyreX]

Gee, lets see:

Ohh meta, how I have missed you.

1.) Meta is retarded.

2.) These situations, while similar on the surface, are different enough that the use of meta regardless of statement 1 is not truly applicable.
3.) You are pushing your OWN meta on the actions of another player.
4.) AtE by itself isn't a scumtell. AtE in response to a scummy action IS a scumtell.

1.) Keep in mind I have no "play style" analysis on Pops. I haven't looked at his other games nor will I. I am basing it off this game. Thus, and if you like to look at my old games you'll see this sentiment:

Meta is retarded

, and if he's playing scummy NOW I want to lynch him for it now. If that's his meta, then we'll do this dance in every game we play.

This is the one thing I give you 100% on. You are right and I absolutely shouldn't have given Gimbo ANY slack because of the fact he is/was absolutely nutbag crazy and would do just that as town. I still think

metas are retarded

and reading that (albeit months ago) makes me a little sad at myself too.

I'd tell you to check my other games but that'd be meta. Wink Rest assured,

I think meta is always retarded

and people who play scummy should be hung for playing scummy and not have the free out when they are actually scum. So, if you think this is a point against me because you dont agree - well, thats really not a good reason now is it? (Would that be meta-meta?)

Meta is retarded

. This play is bad. Defending this play regardless of his alignment is bad.

So, you've ruled out KMD now as well on the grounds of..? You've done a lot more defending then hunting, for sure.

Now I get to rant on my favorite mafia topic...woo!

Yes, of course everyone has a playstyle. That is a given - each player, by the nature of being a human being, has a "meta". In the course of every game (when people have played together) it will play a role, but it should be a subtle role - seeing how people play could have a myriad of reasons and when used properly it is an excellent boost to a case on someone.

This, however, does not translate into meta being a shield for scummy actions. EVER. It is THIS use of "meta" that is far, far more common and, really, wrong. If a player is doing things that are by nature scummy (not voting, for example) then every game I would push on it because it is bad town play. Meta is not, and should not, be a method for scum to hide or for town to play poorly. As for responsibility? If I'm wrong about you and you are actually town I'll only be irritated because we've lost a town which makes the game harder to win - I wont wring my hands wondering if meta could have saved you; it is your responsibility to play the best damn game you can and if you are doing scummy things to not do them anymore. Not mine.

I'll hang scummy players every chance I get and I will never, ever, ever feel bad about it. I haven't had a lot of time on here yet but I think in every damn game there has been at least one player who was scummy as a "meta" and every game I wanted them gone and will continue to do so.

Using meta as a defense is always going to be retarded.

Using meta as part (not the whole) of a case is what it is meant for. I will never back down on that.

Thats enough from me for tonight - I hope there's more discussion tomorrow (although I'll be gone most of the day).

Ok, someone defending someone else based on

"meta" is retarded.

TRYING TO DEFEND YOURSELF WITH META AGAINST A BASELESS VOTE IS FLABBERGASTING.

Meta's are retarded.

Your meta (apparently being as scummy as possible) is double retarded. Do I know if that makes you scum? No, that was my big change in heart. Do I think you're scummy as all getout? Yes.

So, yea, once or twice I've made my stance clear.

noticing something, and picking the right time to comment on it are two separate tests of mafia proficiency.

Then I'll be happy not being proficient because why the hell would you let 100 attempts connecting you slide as town.

[Porkens]

Adel is obvscum. DGB should vote for her

[Vi]

Why are you avoiding the point again? Whether in a timely manner or not, if it happened while Adel was town and scum alike, you meta is invalid as an argument here.

Then let's take the meta out and say that Adel hasn't demonstrated that what he's put forth in response to D1 events has been much more than quackery.

Let me decrypt you answer here:

Yes I was wrong, but I will append another sentence to turn this into a criticism of my questioner somehow.

Again, you are correct. The criticism is there because it reminded me of what you hadn't responded to before regarding your overdefense of your lurking:

Nice recitation of standard theory.

I didn't think of it as standard theory before, but nonetheless. Are you above standard theory?

What are your arguments in favour of my not just being VLA, and too busy to write my catch up post the two days afterwards?

Who's to say this isn't true? After your vigorous denial of wrongdoing to the point where you seem to be suggesting that you CAN'T feasibly be considered scummy for what you did, that doesn't seem like an issue any more.

As far as I can tell you never answered these; your lashing out against everyone who called you scummy early on and claiming immunity for scummy behavior is still unresolved.

I have no idea what kind of meta you claim to have on me, considering we've never played together. My focus D1 was on peoples' fluidity of opinions, hence the commenting on everything.

-----

2. Hero cleared me with his dying breath.

This stands out for being fallacious.

Elmo 753 is very reasonable. I have no doubt that SpyreX is anything other than what he says he is, and this continued push against him is ludicrous.

Troll 778 catching the omission in Adel's response comes across very well to me.

All of the words, words, words flooding the topic have given me no reasons to move my vote. We need more of Elmo's sig ITT.

also, I didn't want to directly vote for

[Vi]

due to the OMGUS drama that would probably follow.

Oh, like what's going on now. Right.

[Adel]

you usually us "meta is retarded" to reject the use of meta to excuse scummy behavior. I use meta to control for variables in a specific player's play to help identify when they actually are scum. Can't you see the difference?

[Adel]

]Then let's take the meta out and say that Adel hasn't demonstrated that what he's put forth in response to D1 events has been much more than quackery.

could all players please answer the following questions:

1. what games (with links) have you finished in the last 6 months?

this question makes it easier for other players to do meta checks on other players.

2. what are your on-going games?

this helps us track games as they finish for better apples to apples comparisons late in this game after some of those other games finish.

3. what is your personal definition of lurking?

active townies often get other active townies lynched. it really helps the town win if there is a equal level of player activity, and I thought getting a consensus definition of lurking out would help. It also was a basic test of mafia awareness, to see how deep each player's understanding of mafia actually is.

4. of the players in this game, which players have you played with in the last six months?

helps identify who

should

have an opinion of other player's play.

5. what other names do you play mafia under here?

for some players this will provide a baseline for what a player's reaction will be when asked something they don't want to answer.

6. what other sites have you played at within the last six months?

helps a person build a full meta.

[caf19]

Votecount

Vi (2): springlullaby, Adel
Adel (3): Vi, SpyreX, Porkens
springlullaby (1): Zorblag
Porkens (2): DrippingGoofball, Ectomancer

Not voting

Elmo

[Vi]

@Adel 793: After this much time, with ample opportunity for everyone to establish consistent manners of activity and a number of people mis/applying meta to each other, who has come out on the worse end based on that questionnaire?

[Adel]

I don't have a clue. During day 1 I was mostly interested in generating information for later analysis, and so far this day I've been pre-occupied with self-defense and examining SpryeX claim, and trying to get others to jump on a SpyreX wagon.

[Adel]

Oh very well, one more before I get on the plane.

@Porkens:
-For two posts in a row, you've basically echoed what SpyreX said towards me. I think you're being hypocritical here when you say I don't do anything on my own.

Which part of SpyreX's posts did I echo with this (the ONLY think I said about you in my last real post):

Artem:

, if you declair that you have no intention of lynching someone you're voting for...maybe I'm missing the point? What good do your bandwagons tdo if you don't intend for them to end in lynches?

I think you kinda missed the point with this question anyway, but that's fine.

Oh what the hell;

Unvote. Vote: Artem

(L-2?)

See y'all in a few more hours.

why did Porkens warn of lynch -2 here,

[Porkens]

to encourage others to vote.

[Zorblag]

Adel, that be about the case that Troll would have expected if it were a Troll, Vi scumpair you were thinking about. Troll also suspected that an attempt for reactions from us as well as others was part of the reason that the case no was given. Further, Troll expected that you were trying to push Troll to get reactions with the totality of the points involving Troll that you raised early in the game.

Some questions then:

Did you think that many people were giving Troll a pro-town read when you said that? Can you point to anything that lead you to this conclusion? If SpyreX be a one shot vig what does that do to the rest of your suspicions?

A question for SpyreX: Should Adel be town who would you think be most likely to be scum at this point either from a scum team angle or from individual actions?

For everyone: is it your impression that many people find Troll to be pro-town or did earlier in the day? Do you think that Troll be pro-town?

Troll be under the impression that most have Troll neutral to scummy and be trying to confirm this.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh