Mini 783: Cowboy Bebop Mafia - Game Over, Space Cowboy

[Vi]

/confirm

Also, what the above two players said.

[Vi]

Hmm... Day 1 has already started... and we have a crowd of experienced people around...
Let's try something different and see if we can avoid having a random vote stage. [/geek]

@ShadowGirl: Am I scummy for suggesting that we skip the RVS in favor of revealing discussion?

@VP Baltar: What do you like about the player list?

@Rhinox: When sprayed on windshields, do you cause rhinoceroses to bead and roll down the glass?

[Vi]

PokerFace, when would you like to start the game?

Rhinox and I have a beef to settle, so that is fun.

Don't we all?~

@VP Baltar: You call yourself a "relative noob". Are you nervous about this game?

[Vi]

ITT, walls of text on Page 2 and earlier. I'm sure Jahudo expected as much with people like me in this game

No, I wouldn't say nervous. I actually like playing with people who have more experience because it challenges you to play better.

Good answer. I think we'll get along well on a personal level.

Is this the first game you have played where you didn't want a random voting stage? If so any particular reason you didn't want one?

Yes, it is.
I wanted to try it because I saw a game where mith did something similar and I thought this player group was competent enough to try it. What I'd like to learn is whether it's easier to get out of this "leading discussion" phase and into serious play than going from an RVS to serious play.

Plus if someone says "hai gaiz" and votes we can all wagon that player for being a Philistine

So it's basically for academic reasons.

Bonus Question addressed to everyone:
Do you believe her and why?

Yes, I do. For one, I'm *cough* quite aware of the circumstances surrounding her departure from the site earlier, and accept her explanation for why she claimed. For two, I don't see her as scum claiming Miller just because from what I know of her, I wouldn't expect her to play such a gamble (especially with a player list like this!). For three, I also like that tactic, because it prevents me from having to answer a LOT of questions later on (see Mind Screw Gaiden, where I was told I would investigate as "Richard Nixon, Serial Killer" or the closest equivalent - what a nightmare that could have been). And for four, I really don't care much; I'd rather learn her alignment through her actions.

So what do I get for answering the Bonus Question

Also, anyone know anything about this Cowboy Bebop TV show? Until I got my role PM, I assumed we were all gonna be ridin' steers and square dancin'. Yee Haw!

Nope.
I've heard of the trope Cowboy Bebop At His Computer, but that's it.

Do you have any questions for anyone else? Not asking any that you weren't asked yourself except for the flavor-based one seems somewhat weak at best. And by weak I mean scummy, and by scummy I mean "you know what happens when you catch my attention".

Just thought of something else as well, it might actually be helpful to the town because if an investigative role did check Juls out and returned an innocent it would be a good indicator of that role's sanity.

Do you think it would be worth the Cop's time (and the Town's) to confirm sanity by basically blowing an investigation?
I guess it would also be good to note that sometimes Millerization is factored in after sanity (so an unknowing Naive Cop may investigate a Miller and get a Guilty result).

Perhaps the mod can clear this up?

No, I don't think you're scummy for skipping the RVS - perhaps the opposite, even.

Why?
Also, where did your username come from?

[Vi]

So, I demand that Ed be added to your avatar list for future use Vi!!!

My soul is getting stared into.

[Vi]

Anyways, I didn't get the memo that we replaced the RVS with the RNQS (Random Non-sense question Stage)...

Um... lies? Damned lies? Perhaps even statistics?
I mean, I said pretty plainly that I wanted to try it, a bunch of other people went with it (voluntarily!), and you yourself commented--

Not sure what I think about intentionally trying to avoid the random voting stage... but in this case, it seems... natural.

So here's a couple: Whats so scummy about not asking questions (yet!), and why am I being singled out when at least 3 other players who have posted so far haven't been asking questions either?

Because all we're DOING is asking questions. This has been the case since halfway down Page 1. You posted at the end of Page 1, after me and Pokerface and whoever else had already started.
You're being singled out because the people who have posted but haven't gotten into the conversation (don_johnson) came before the interrogation began, and the other three are simply absent.
I'm not sure what the pro-Town reasoning would be for trying to get me to look at noncontributors on Page 2.

PokerFace has the right idea.

Vote: Rhinox

(L-5)

Awww man I know where this is going... I'll be an SK by page 3!

Nah, just Mafia by Page 2. I'm doing better than you thought

----

And this is a Cowboy Bebop encyclopedia

I

maintain:

Oh...? Now I know why you chose this theme.
I'll definitely take an Edward avatar now that I know more, btw.

[Vi]

Let me rephrase... when I agreed with the natural absence of the RVS, I did realize I signed a blood contract that if I didn't start asking questions right away I would be deemed scum.

So... you saw that the game (serious mode) had started, and you didn't want to play...?

Not quite, actually. Half of the players are answering questions. Not all can be discussion leaders all the time.

Ya might wanna read that one again. 3 other players who HAVE posted weren't asking questions either (hint: Shadowgirl, baltar, and Juls), and they all posted before/during the question phase. I haven't even thought of non-contribs yet.

*reads* ...oh. ^.^;

Damn what was she smoking? Pass that good shit arround[/bad joke]

Um, the blowfish is playing in this game, but hasn't posted yet

I don't think I contradicted myself, because that would mean I was 100% committed to one particular side. I don't see a problem with discussing all possibilities, as they are, well, indeed possible!

There's also a possibility that everyone in this game is a Cult Leader. That doesn't mean that it's a possibility worth discussing.
Your dissenting view - "well maybe she was planning to do this since the last game" - seems very weak compared to your apparently Amazing Meta on Juls. So why toss dirt at Juls?

----

Also I think it is probably a good idea to hear Juls role 'flavor'. Not sure which of the show's character would rationally be a miller in this game.

Do you see any downside to this suggestion? (Forewarning: I do)

[Vi]

Oh, and for those paying attention at home, I treat death millers the same way.

I'm somewhat afraid to ask what experience you have with Death Millers.

So what do you think of the stuff going on that doesn't have to do with the Miller claim?

[Vi]

I'm slightly concerned over the bravado behind Vi's actions. She's being quite proactive, but that's also a great spot for scum to be. I'm particularly interested in how she has been targetting certain players with certain questions. It gives the illusion of being really organized, or the appearance of having some kind of "master plan" for finding scum, which builds unwarranted town trust. Furthermore, the hyper-directed approach allows her to ask "safe" questions to scumbuddies while still appearing to grill them.

IGMEOY Vi

So who, potentially, are my scumbuddies based on this approach?
As for being "really organized" or having a "master plan", I think anyone who's been in a game with me knows that I basically play as I go, but the sense of knowing what I'm doing is a nice illusion to keep up

I think you're putting a bit too much stock in asking individualized questions.

I'm still mistrustful of something that potentially guarantees a free ride to end game, no matter what meta lies behind it.

Wait now. Nobody's said anything about Juls getting a free ride to endgame. Quite the opposite, most everyone has said that they're interested in judging Juls by how she acts.

A better answer would have been I don't think she would lie it's not in her character

I especially don't like the underlined portion, where he says it would have been better not to provide another perspective and to agree that Juls wouldn't possibly lie.

The implication in the excerpt from PokerFace's quote is that Juls is lying about

being a Miller

, not just lying in general. I see why you latched onto this, because as you're reading it this is PokerFace basically putting Juls up as an angel and smiting Rhinox for not recognizing it (here comes the drama), and it really looks bad. But I don't think that's what PF meant.
(I'm also not sure if it qualifies as a chainsaw defense, though I'm sure you'll see this as one.)

-----

Serious question: How many setups with a cop do NOT have a GF role?

If you're in The Road to Rome, all of them.
Otherwise... I've seen some. US Election 08 had two Cops and no Godfathers (though the Cops had strings attached).

[Vi]

VP Baltar, don't you have any more relevant questions to ask? You seem to be playing very cautiously.

Unvote: Rhinox
Vote: VP Baltar

(L-5)

[Vi]

In the meantime, you can explain this "cautious" play of mine as of page 4 (other than the question mentioned above).

You don't ask many questions, and the ones you do ask don't seem very... strong? for getting this game to go places. Your responses to others' questions are IMO not very helpful, and tend to involve a lot of ideas about setup logic instead of alignments and arguments.

Cut by Rhinox; will respond in a moment...

[Vi]

Also, who is to decide what is and isn't worth discussing at this stage of the game, and by what criteria?

Me! Me! Me! Because I said so!

This is basically the entire point I was trying to communicate by my comments about Juls.

Okay.

I guess your post takes care of my concerns about you.

Maybe I'm way off base here, but what exactly are the benefits of trying to pair up scum partners so early in the game? Pokerface can answer this as well.

If you think you have a solid lead... well, still not much, but it's slightly better than nothing.
But Zilla's the one saying that I'm potentially going light on my scumpartners with the questioning. I'm asking her to back that up with who these scumpartners may be.

I can see through your smoke and mirrors

Uh-oh *turns the fog machine up*

[Vi]

Why are you defending juls?

Heading off what I think are bad attacks =/= defending Juls.

I don't see where the basis of your two comments about people assuming that Juls is a confirmed Miller is coming from.

Also, why not question shadow girls “meta” argument?

I don't see a reason to. Do you?
*reads to You 100*
I don't see ShadowGirl's reason for letting Juls's Miller claim pass to be that scummy. Why are you focusing on it like a magnifying glass in the sun? Do you suspect ShadowGirl?

I am stunned that everyone seems to be “okay” with letting juls claim miller and sit quietly as we all discuss it.

Juls claims to be V/LA, but that doesn't seem to be impeding her Mish Mash duties
You may be on to something here.

---

So you are saying if a cop received multiple guilties in a row, you would be inclined to completely trust their sanity without question?

There's something really obvious that I think you're missing. And d_j gets it immediately--

if we lynch the first "guilty" player and they flip town, don't you think we would already be questioning sanity?

What bothers me about this exchange is how Gorrad jumped onto VP Baltar's side of the life raft in 97.

@Gorrad:

Why are you so interested in a potential Cop confirming sanity?

---

I see a slight down side to it pending how significant or ill significant the character is. Some unknown in the white tiger will probably tell us nothing while someone that could rationaly be a miller would be more believeable. Basically the significance of her character can effect how her claim is viewed either way. normally though I see flavor claimed with role in theme games.

Let me ask this--Do you think the Mafia have falseclaims in this game?

---

question to anyone: how does investigating a claimed miller speak to sanity?

Jahudo answered this already

This is getting tiresome. Is Cop sanity

really

that big a potential issue in this game? I personally prefer to assume that things AREN'T screwy until they are demonstrated to be so.

---

General question to those who have played with rhinox before. Does he normally act cautiosly on all options in games, or do you feel this trait is unique to only his scum or town play?

I wouldn't place a value on a meta read on Rhinox at this stage in the game.

It's been so long since I've played with Rhinox that I can't remember.

[Vi]

I suppose I should have been careful what I wished for when I started the game with discussion. It's a lot to catch up on x.x
This is basically me reading and answering as I go.

----

WTF? He is sleeping on the couch tonight.

I got home last night and was pretty tired after taking two finals. I did not feel like posting.

Oh come now. Mafia is much more important than your entire academic career.

but you

[PokerFace]

kinda just told us that you have a main character's name...

Um... Juls, right or wrong, why did you think it was a good idea to claim this immediately?

Hey Juls, what do you think of PokerFace? of Zilla?

----

But first, when did the definition of chainsaw defense change? It was explained to me as "defending another player by attacking their attackers." I'd seen it used that way in more than two games, and I'd never seen it used in the way it's defined on the wiki...

The one on the wiki is the original. On a side note, even Tarhalindur's backing down on the veracity of his Standard Tells.

People agree with me, good for them. Juls didn't know how people would react to her claim when she made it though, and that's why I'm mistrustful of it. It has the potential to guarantee a free ride to endgame with a different player set.

I sense the enthusiasm in "good for them".
Let me ask this, then. What sort of meta do you have on the people in this player set? What sort of meta do you expect Juls has?

My accusation is not that

[PokerFace]

was painting Juls as a saint but that he wanted Rhinox to only have one opinion, and that the opinion he suggested he have is that Juls is not lying.

Rereading what Rhinox said and what I think PokerFace was trying to say, I don't really think I agree with you here. Rhinox basically said "I don't think Juls would do it BUT there's a chance that she's being intentionally insidious". And rather than say that his answer is based on what he knows of Juls, he says that read is based on what he knows of

Millers

.
I'm fine with "I don't know" being a stance, but the apparent lopsidedness of claiming to have an idea of how Juls' mind works and then making an assertion based on NOT knowing how Juls' mind works is still "Off!" (a special spray people sometimes apply to themselves that draws every mosquito in the game right to them).

Was this around what you were referring to when you said something didn't feel right about Rhinox's meta read on Juls?

Both Rhinox and Gorrad make good responses to each others posts, and at the end, I think Gorrad sufficiently explains his position. I do really like Rhinox's attack here though. Something feels really genuine about this exchange, and I'd have to say it's brilliantly faked if it's scum.

How secure is this read?

----

@ZEEnon - Why the vote on PokerFace?

Lack of elabortation? Did you ask me to elaborate?

You're not going to be one of THOSE players, are you... >_>

----

bolded is the lose/lose question. it is not fair to ask such a thing. i am focusing no more on this subject than other players focusing on other things. yes, i suspect anyone who speaks with certainty of the knowledge of anothers role, especially on day 1 when the player in question has a total of four posts. i don't think asking to explain herself is out of line. in fact, there is a huge discrepancy in her reasoning. do you know what it is?

Mmm... no, you're focusing quite a bit more on Shadoo than anyone else is focusing on any one

person

.

tell me this: if you only have one game to draw this meta from, why are you so quick to now call her "inexperienced"?

You say "so quick"... I need to remind myself not to use that phrase if I feel tempted to; it looks bad.
Anyway, consider that at the time of the event, Juls WAS inexperienced (IIRC, when she left she had only recently accumulated 100+ posts). And it hasn't been that long since then, I think. (Second draft edit: Oh, it has.) Regardless of how Juls feels about it (and how Juls actually is!), I don't think ShadowGirl is scummy for what she said.

And I see that's the answer to your question at the bottom of the post. I got it right and wrong IYO at the same time, I suppose?

----

Vi's vote on VP for asking a question which may have seemed irrelevant also piqued my interest.

But am I scummy for it?

You're suspicious of... Juls and PokerFace, correct? Are you interested in placing a vote down, or are you still deciding?

----

Weren't you the one who originally proposed the idea? Why do you let it go so easy just because she doesn't want to?

After PokerFace answers, answer this - would you rather press on Juls' flavor?

----

Actually, what I don't like is that you threw your opinion out there, but you're not giving anyone a chance to respond, because you can immediately chastise them for further speculation when you said it was a bad idea.

Good point.

Re: scum not scrutinizing their partners - Isn't this what Zilla accused PokerFace of doing?

Would you tell us to assume that if you were the mod?? Being a theme game, I automatically assume the setup will be something I would consider screwy (aka non-traditional). Hell, I'm in a normal right now that is probably the screwiest game I've been in yet!

I wouldn't tell us to assume that if I were the mod, but I'm also not the mod Since Jahudo's earlier game was Open, the only thing I know about his idea of a fun game is that he likes chicken.
I see that it was advertised that some roles are unusual, but not

evil

. I'm open to strange roleclaims, but I'm not expecting a bastard mod.

No. You're misrepping me. SG tried to specifically compare your general play IN THIS GAME to draw a conclusion on your allignment based on your play in another game - I find that scummy because I don't think its possible to draw any sort of conclusion on your allignment based on 4 posts where all you did was claim miller, so it makes me think SG knows you're town in this game and is trying to earn some points with you and/or the rest of the town.

Oh, THAT's what this case is about? Well why didn't d_j say so?
Okay, this makes sense. I'm not sure if I buy it, but it has credibility.

You are right about one thing - Vi would definately be the first to notice anything "different" about my play.

You post walls of text regardless of alignment

Something is fishy here... and by fishy, I mean scummy. Like carp.

Gorrad is scummy as carp?

----

From the perspective of me being scum:
If she is scum and gets lynched, then wouldn't I be automatically implicated?

If she is town, then I'm reducing my pool of people to mislynch.

Rhinox basically answered this in 134.

----

Okay, I think I'm caught up.

I'll wait for Juls' next post before making a decision on her. I'm not especially suspicious of Rhinox. I'm not sure about ShadowGirl, as a lot of the argument against her is based on her ignorance of Juls (not to be confused with Juls' ignorance of Mafia). I'm not sure if I've said anything against him, but PokerFace is worrying me. And Gorrad... I want to agree with Rhinox that he's scummy, but in the last game I was in with him he was really, really, really scummy (as Town), so I'm feeling leery of pushing the wagon.

...but I'll do it anyway.

Unvote: VP Baltar
Vote: Gorrad

(L-4)

ShadowGirl and Gorrad need to talk about real people other than themselves.

[Vi]

FYI: You can use any color, even my color (indigo). I'm sure you can tell the difference between me and you.
~Jahudo.

0.0
Holy cats, I didn't even realize I was using the mod color. Thank you for your tolerance.

@VP Baltar: I know I read that someplace... I tend to ask people things they've already answered a lot >.>

[Vi]

Re: How secure is this read?

It either says something about their alignment, or something about how skilled they are. It's still totally possible one or both of them are experienced scum able to fake that exchange, but they faked genuineness very well if they did, and it does make me feel more confident in their towniness.

Which... doesn't do much to a whole lot to give a straight answer to the question.
Do you view both Rhinox AND Gorrad as more pro-Town based on this exchange? How strong is this pro-Town sentiment?

-----

Further, source on Juls threatening to quit? I know she quit for awhile during my game, but yeah.

There was no

threatening

involved :v

(weird point about charlatan's typo goes here, already answered, etc.)

Post 144 was something like 70% fluff and 20% where-is-this-coming-from overlapping with 15% this-has-already-been-covered-as-a-mistake (Zilla vs. me, the charlatan mess-up). :v I'm fairly positive I don't like it. Whether it's from laziness or scumminess, I suppose I'll find out presently.

-----

I am webcensed at work

Bad things happen at mafiascum.net!

That program is hilarious for how condescending it is.

Um... Juls, right or wrong, why did you think it was a good idea to claim this immediately?

I was thinking out loud.

Which... doesn't answer the original question.
Let me get to the point. In some Theme games, if every player doesn't have a named character attached, more often than not named characters are power roles or scum.

In addition, why is it necessary to elaborate on your softclaim?

-----

Hey Forbidden, while we're on the subject of hypocrisy, who's to say you're not chainsawing for Poker, eh? In fact, you're voting me because I think Poker's chainsawing for Juls, and no other reason. Apparently it's scummy to think someone could be chainsawing for Juls?

The title of the game is Cowboy Bebop, but this line of questioning looks more like The Texas Chainsaw Massacre. I really have doubts about the legitimacy of this line of questioning.

Your later post about my disconcerting observations on Vi misrepresents my concerns; she's doing things that LOOK pro-town, but are more showy than practically useful, i.e. appearing to lead the town by asking relatively benign questions, steering discussion to appear as a town-leader, etc. Just as I don't trust claims that can be used to guarantee a free ride to endgame, I don't trust hollow "pro-town" actions

(quotes necessary here)

that aren't all that practical.

I agree with the bolded.

You're also pushing the same angle Pokerface is pushing on Rhinox, that there's some inherent "contradiction" about not being 100% confident of your meta-read. It's a little too obvious of a buddy-tactic, I would think, but coupling that with your chainsaw-esque vote on me, I'm almost inclined to believe a FL/Poker pair.

"It's a little too obvious, but I'm going to suggest that you two are together anyway."
Speaking frankly, I've not seen scum work together in this way on a wagon that's not going places. That may be inexperience speaking; however, I still think you're laying it on a bit thick here.

Are you saying you don't see how putting self-preservation ahead of helping town win is scummy?

You seem rather fond of bringing up the opinion that Juls is scum trying to get a free pass to endgame. To which I bring this up again--

What sort of meta do you have on the people in this player set? What sort of meta do you expect Juls has?

--as what I remember of your backup for supporting this belief is based on what Juls thinks she can get away with ITT.

but you get a hefty IGMEOY for this.

What's the point of this? You should have your eye on people in general anyway. See Meaningless FoS argument, etc.

Don't misunderstand me; f-light's post was bad, but this response to it is dubious.

-----

Non-genuine, because scum can't genuinely be suspicious of anyone.

Not quite true...

I'm not quite sure if such a sloppy post would be scummy, though - if it was an attempt to go under the radar, it kinda didn't work

-----

Then charlatan can clear that up. May I please ask why you are giving other people outs?

I'm assuming you're referring to Zilla (and others) pointing out an obvious typo in charlatan's post? I mean... it's a really obvious typo. It's not scummy to correct it.

Every townie is a body that helps town win. I see self preservation as a valid tatic over rolling over and being lynched.

Which kind of has nothing to do with the conversation at hand. Juls didn't exactly claim Miller under duress.

Not even an FoS, or an HoS? You don't seem so convicted.

I need an image macro for a disbelieving glare, since chenwhat.jpg is too big to post regularly.
This is a really paltry point to be arguing tbqh - especially since to the uninformed Vi, IGMEOY is sort of equivalent to FoS.

-----

Hey Veep Baltar. Who's looking scummy right now?

-----

Uh.. is there a reason you're trying to rationalize my play to Zilla? I can do that myself you know.

I'm not interested in rationalizing your play so much as interpreting what I think you were trying to say in the process of evaluating the situation. That paragraph only incidentally had anything to do with you.

What alignment to you percieve me to have? What alignment do you think zilla has?

You -> Neutral, leaning scummy
Zilla -> Scummy, leaning neutral

And I'll return the favor, since you don't seem to talk much about people being scummy in your posts. Who do you view as scummy right now?

You rationalized and then you worried? If you think I'm scum you shouldn't rationalize me. You seem to want to agree with others. Shouldn't you have your own opinions if you are town?

"Worries me" != "is likely scum".
I don't claim to know if you're scum at the moment (as I mentioned above) and in the process of trying to decipher the game will apply several interpretations to the events of the game. That you seem to think I should have extreme views on everyone's alignment, particularly so early in the game, is noted - and not in a positive way.

-----

f-light's 159 is... unimpressive all over.

-----

Firstly, I consider it chainsaw, and that's why I voted him. For you to have any valid weight here, you have to

prove that I don't actually consider it chainsaw defense.

No Zilla, you don't actually believe what you're saying you do!

Responding to f-light's nonpoints may have been necessary on your end, but it's not helping me derive alignments.

-----

d_j 162 is... not very convincing. I don't understand the first half of the post, where Gorrad seems to argue the same thing twice (not in a contradictory way) - Claiming Miller late (not Miller Lite) only has one upside, namely that scum don't get extra information about the setup. That whole thing about getting instalynched after being investigated by a Cop? 'Seems like a powerful negative to me.

The second half of your post is a

non sequitur

par excellence (where did we go from Godfathers to investigating Millers?).

-----

2)What about claiming being framed by a framer?

? Where did this come from?

-------
@@@
-------

My stances haven't changed much from my previous post. PokerFace isn't convincing me. d_j continues to strike me as somewhat dubious. I'm very wary of Zilla. f-light is more likely clueless Town than scum. VP Baltar seems to be slipping right under the radar. I don't think I can remember anything charlatan has done offhand (this needs correction on my own time). And where is Gorrad, anyway?

[Vi]

Hey Veep Baltar. Who's looking scummy right now?

[Vi]

@Vi, why do you perceive forbidden to be bumbling town and why did you compeletly ignore ZEEnon?

Z didn't post anything in this segment of the game other than "will post soon". Not being able to catch up on posts and look sincere about it is a scumtell, but given that you can build a three-story house with a garage from all the walls in this game I'm not inclined to make a big deal of it yet.
In other words, I ignored ZEEnon because there's nothing to see from him.

After reconsidering f-light... I don't sense malicious intent in her posts, but I also don't think she's trying as hard as I normally expect. (Yes, I claim to have a semblence of a meta on her.) So I suppose she would be better as neutral to me, but there are still people that worry me more.

Patience

You lost me.

[Vi]

I'm not quite sure if such a sloppy post would be scummy, though - if it was an attempt to go under the radar, it kinda didn't work

Touche... however - scum can attempt something and fail, no?

Well, yes. It

could

have been an attempt to go under the radar and/or contribute that kinda didn't work.
I'm having trouble assigning an alignment to her posts though.

[Vi]

The second half of your post is a non sequitur par excellence (where did we go from Godfathers to investigating Millers?).

one more time for the slow kids trying to sing the duet in the back.

gorrad says "godfather" is one of the more common roles in a game of mafia.

gorrad then says

A cop could target a claimed miller to test sanity. As a claimed miller would, no matter what, turn up anti-town, they would be a perfect test.

okay? are you ready?

why does gorrad not realize that a "claimed miller" could be a gambiting godfather? its a contradiction, not a reach. investigating a "claimed miller" proves absolutely nothing. got it? NOTHING!

This is the first time I've heard of a Godfather gambiting in such a way. I see no need for an inv. immune Godfather to do such a thing, besides (unless the Godfather wanted to claim Miller AND get the scumpartners to convince the Town that the Cop wants to investigate said Godfather AND thus convince the Town that the Cop is insane and/or naive). It seems like an overly drawn-out gambit that costs too much for too little result, especially since the scumteam has to assume that there's a Cop in the game in the first place for it to be worth anything.

I'd ask you to stop spinning theory webs and start talking about people hating other people, but that's not the kind of advice I'd like to give scum so I'll see what you do on your own

vi: why are you voting gorrad? exactly what is dubious about me pointing out what i see as "contradictions"? did you not read my recent post where i explained that i wasn't comprehending gorrad's initial statement properly or did you just choose to ignore it?

I'm voting Gorrad because all of his posts have been based on theory, and unlike Zilla I'm not especially seeing the Towniness in it.
What's dubious about pointing out these contradictions is that the reasoning needed to see them as contradictions is so far-fetched that quite frankly I see no reason to place stock in it. For instance, Gorrad said "no matter what, a claimed Miller would investigate guilty". You say that it could be a Godfather gambiting. Yes, it

could

be the case. But the chances of it are low enough that it's hardly plausible as an objection. Plus Gorrad's statement does not make a distinction between NK-immune Godfathers (which I see as more common) and inv. immune Godfathers.
I saw where you said you didn't understand Gorrad's initial statement. I don't understand your lack of understanding. You said you didn't see any downsides to a late claim, and then came back and pointed to where Gorrad endorses an EARLY claim and says that it's a benefit to a late claim unlike a late claim of any other role. Which makes no sense.

a godfather with a believable "miller" claim gets a veritable free ride to endgame,

My initial response, in 20 words or less.
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

...I believe that was pulled from Dorothy Parker.

Anyway. My position is that investigating Millers is a bad idea in the first place, so I'm really having a hard time empathizing with this paranoia.

[Vi]

You said you didn't see any downsides to a late claim

, and then came back and pointed to where Gorrad endorses an EARLY claim and says that it's a benefit to a late claim unlike a late claim of any other role.

bolded is the misrep. why are people having so much trouble understanding me?

i haven't said anything of the sort.

Okay, that came out wrong.

Gorrad

said he didn't see any

upsides

to a late claim other than that one, and then you're trying to show another place where he endorsed an early claim and calling contradiction. Which is still not satisfying.
You can say that Gorrad's conclusion (that a Miller would ALWAYS show up Guilty to a Sane investigation) is false, sure, but suggesting there's a deliberate contradiction in there is weak.

For instance, Gorrad said "no matter what, a claimed Miller would investigate guilty".

^^ not true. it could be a town gambit. the fact is, the possibilities exist for there to be other results. the fact that people are believing the claim and suggesting we use the miller as a "sanity" gauge for a cop is what i have issues with. you agree with me that using the miller in this way is a bad idea, yet you call me dubious for arguing this point with others. what gives?

I'm arguing that the Cop most likely doesn't need to test sanity in the first place.
You're arguing that the Miller would be a bad way to test sanity due to various sorts of gambitry.
Same conclusion, different decency levels of reasoning.

-----

Leave the theory to the mafia discussion forum

But that's where scum lie about their own metas so yeah

[Vi]

It came up because we're addressing all possibilities.

As mentioned before, I think there's a point where the discussion about what could be out there loses relevance. We passed it a page or two ago.

Re: Towniness of Gorrad and Rhinox - <_< I think something's being lost in translation. How

secure

is your read on these two; that is, how willing would you be to change your mind?

Re: Juls coasting to endgame as Miller -

People agree with me, good for them. Juls didn't know how people would react to her claim when she made it though, and that's why I'm mistrustful of it. It has the potential to guarantee a free ride to endgame with a different player set.

This is the source of this discussion. This is why I'm asking what you know of this player set, and what you know of Juls. I'll explain more below, but the gist of it is that if there were ever a player set where Juls would NOT be able to pull one over on the Town and expect to get away with it, it would be this one.

What continues to bother me is that you continue to attribute suspicion on Juls to "standard paranoia", which seems like you're not quite up to judging her alignment as if the Miller claim wasn't there in the first place... which I recall being your position in #4.

Re: IGMEOY - It's not a scumtell, but I have come to see FoS as... well, pointless. If you're suspicious of someone, it should show through your posts (see below, again). As to it being a scumtell, I wouldn't class it as one unless it's abused.

To head off the objection, IGMEOY is not FoS, and the clarification you provided is helpful. Nonetheless, see the second sentence above.

Re: Not asking you about what you think of people - I pay attention to your posts. You're not focusing on one person out of eleven, which is usually my cue to ask. The succinct summaries are helpful though.

I find it strange that she doesn't voice any suspicion of me until her last post, where I'm "Scummy, leaning neutral" and then goes on to say her opinion hasn't changed since her last post.

If I'm quoting you a lot and there's more than a joke under it, I'm probably curious about you. Context, etc.

-----

Re: Zilla 184 - That's actually a reasonably fair assessment. I was chosen to play this game for a reason, and I accepted for a reason as well. I know these people - Jahudo, Rhinox, VP Baltar, f-light, Juls, to a lesser extent ShadowGirl and PokerFace, etc. - and I like playing with them. They know me; I know them. However, I don't know you. From that perspective, I can understand why it would seem like I was buddying left and right early on.

To answer for ShadowGirl, potentially yes. This could be an attempt to lead town where you want them to go. Not to mention these questions are very benign.

It's

Page 1

; what did you expect?
As far as "an attempt to lead Town where I want them to go", is this suspicion still valid?

The forewarning basically tells PF that there's a "right" answer, and you get a cookie for thinking like me. In fact, this seems to be an odd way to scumhunt. I know that's totally not what I'd do with this situation, which would be to point out the flaw and see how he reacts.

Hm... That's legitimate.

That's a rather benign question with a ton of open-endedness.

Yet any answer would have been more interesting than what she had said so far.

----

@f-light: Take care of yourself, and don't worry about us. ^-^

[Vi]

You're not

solely

focusing on one person

(or fewer)

out of eleven, which is usually my cue to ask.

What do you call my case on Pokerface? Or FL?

Edited.

-----

Your ploy as claiming in your first post seems quite hasty, as there's nothing to judge whether that's a good or bad play to work with yet.

It seems strange and out-of-step with what's logical,

so then I have to question "why would you do that?" The scum motivation comes to mind a lot more easily than the town motivation. Scum stands to gain a ton more than town in that position. To think that it must be sincere because attempting something like that with this player base is suicide strikes me as wrong, because clearly, attempting something like that with this player base isn't suicide, because they all think that it would be suicide.

And I disagree with this assessment, and particularly want to know why you believe the bolded given site meta.

Long story short, I see it as a potential play as much as I see claiming as a cop and hoping there's a bodyguard. It's an odd stance to take, and you've become untouchable. If you're scum, PO's won't want to waste an investigation on you, vigs probably won't want to waste a kill on you (though this might actually be the best course of action), and

people don't want to lynch you.

If you're not scum (and this is the good part), mafia won't touch you either because you're still a candidate for suspicion or because you've claimed to be a non-threatening role.

Therein lies the disagreement.
That's the whole point of the "not letting people get a free ride to endgame".

Short story even shorter: It makes the most sense to me if it's a scum gambit.

To contrast, NOT claiming is a Town gambit - and unless you can play very pro-Town like PokerFace suggests, not a very good one. Based on site meta, nobody will believe someone who claims Miller reactively. Your choices are to either invite this sort of suspicion on yourself by claiming, or try to get NKd before you get semirandomly quicklynched.

Have I mentioned recently how much I dislike the Cop role?

---

Succinctness is pro-town.

Twoo. Apologies; I know how it feels.

That being said, I think he's dwelled a long time on the miller thing and it's time to move on.

@D_J-Beyond ShadowGirl, who would be your second choice for a lynch today and why?

also this

[Vi]

@deej: Why me?

[Vi]

HEY hey hey wait wait wait etc. etc. etc.

Juls, the post where you mentioned that PokerFace kinda slipped that he had a name...

I have seen/heard tales from Moratorioum of Juls getting frustraited deeply at a game even one as simple as a mishmash game so I already know part of the story checks out.

To the best of my knowledge, my "character" name is not one of the characters in Cowboy Bebop (I would need to verify that though, it has been years since I watched)...

but you kinda just told us that you have a main character's name

...I would be interested to know how many people do/don't have main character names but I don't know how to ask it without revealing potentially too much detail. NOTE: I am not asking that question at this point just thinking out loud, do not answer it and blame me for you answering!

That PokerFace quote is incorrect (a typo; that was the quote you responded to before this point). What quote

should

be there?

[Vi]

Interesting... Yet I find a Miller claim to be rather plausible in this game. I think this is worth pursuing.

Unvote: Gorrad
Vote: PokerFace

(L-4)

Flavor claim and/or die.

@mod: Vote count, etc.

[Vi]

I don't see Vi as some kind of hynotist.

I knew this Foucault pendulum was a rip-off. [/foxtrot]

Also, I like how you ask yourself who you find scummy, and barely answer it.

Again I fail to see how this quote says anything about my own role, Whether or not I have a name or anything like that. I think you're reading too much into this.

I assumed a miller role would have a name.

Something like giving others a guilty read normally has more to it than "You just do it".

Why.
I also don't understand the last sentence.

I see no reason for me to claim my role and or flavor at this time.

I see no reason for me to unvote, then.
Also, that impromptu RPing thing about the pressure you're under really doesn't come off well to me.

I'm not sure I like this new PF-d_j discussion, although that may be because my personal favorite policy is Lynch All

[Vi]

EBWOP
...When another players claims

their

role outside of these reasons I am originally suspicious and it is normal

policy

to get all of the claim so they can

not

weasle out of or weasel into some reasonable comfort later on in the game.

Basically don't let someone get away unless you think they are town

I disagree. Let me show you my Role PM from another Theme game.

<Insert>

Welcome, Richard Nixon(from Real Life). You resigned to avoid impeachment and that made you surly. Then they resurrected you 1000 years later, and you were elected president of Earth. It is your duty to protect your subjects…er…citizens.

You are the Townie Wiretapper.

Active Abilities—You may use one a day.
<Wiretap> You will place a wiretap on the targeted player’s body. Each day, it will reveal a bit of information about that player.

Passive Abilities
<Watergate> You will show up as a Serial Killer(or the closest equivalent) to all investigations that target you.
<Robot> You are a robot. This may or may not have any in-game significance.
<Mutual> You know that the G-Man(from Half-Life) is in the game and is not town-aligned.

You win when all threats to the town are dead.

Mod note: The first day a wiretap is there, gets the flavor text of player’s role PM. The second day, gets one random non-factional ability. The third day, gets role name+alignment. If he wiretaps mod, same thing as others happen.

Guess how much of that I saw any rational sense in claiming D1.

Just <Watergate>.

[Vi]

Hey PokerFace. Have you taken a look at, say, the last three parts of the Rules post?
I think that would completely invalidate your example (not that it was very good in the first place).

[Vi]

Hey PokerFace. Have you taken a look at, say, the last three parts of the Rules post?
I think that would completely invalidate your example (not that it was very good in the first place).

hmm your right I think I did confuse part of that.

Spike's old gang was the Red Dragon not the White Tiger right? Seems I'm trying to rationalize too much in terms of the series.

I've not done enough "research" to see the relevance, but deciding on Gren's actual gang isn't the point anyway.

1) This isn't Lynch All Indeterminate Genders. (thankfully...)
2) The White Tigers (a.k.a. Town) are only incidentally mentioned in any of the sources I've checked. Thus, the next point.
3) The only people I would expect to have names in this game are the recurring characters - who have conveniently been revealed to be in the scum faction(s). (Vicious is obvSK.)
4) It's --still-- quite plausible for there to be a generic Miller character in this game.

[Vi]

We can't tell if you are lying or not without more information; information you are holding from us.

Except we can.

PokerFace's slip over assuming Juls would have a named role (which at the time I don't think he realized would be a dead giveaway that the player is anti-Town) combined with his awkward (and not terribly sensical) attempts to recover from it is what's earned my vote. Zilla 209 is a basic summary of the rest.

Why are you only interested in the case on PokerFace?

[Vi]

Secondly here is my logic on why I thought Juls might have a name

1. Generally all scum would have names as significant characters
2. A Miller is seen as Scum
3. So it is likly a miller would have a name or be significant.

If you want I do have a better example than Gren for an obv miller. I mentioned Gren earlier while mixing up Red Dragons and White Tiger. Andhe was against the red dragons (not the white tiger) which was the spike's old gang before spike went cow boy so to speak.

I disagree with the second point necessarily being the case. I can (still) think of a nice generic title for a Miller in this flavor. To say that a Miller would necessarily have flavor is tbqh bogus.

I don't recall an "Andhe" after 20 sessions, but that considering by your description he's not a bounty hunter, I don't see how that would make him a Miller.

Apparently I've been smoking crack. Maybe I got my games mixed up.

Actually now that I think about it, that's what happened...

You actually were on crack?

I don't think Juls needs to claim.

[Vi]

Catching up.

charlatan 273: Is almost entirely on the defense, with only vague suspicion against d_j. I also think Rhinox is on the right track in 277. I've overlooked charlatan up until now, but I like what people are saying about him.

I also agree with VP Baltar 283 (against ZEEnon). I also also agree with VP Baltar's 292 (against Gorrad).

@mod: Prod ZEEnon

Gorrad has a history of looking painfully scummy to me, so I don't know what to make of that

I'd rather leave Juls' meta-based questioning (286) to Juls. Likewise with PokerFace's query @Gorrad (304). I don't think these "playstyle" questions will be that significant in the longer run.

fl only skimmed the thread it seems, and didn't seemed interested in understanding what was going on. Thats fits with then being replaced, but then hohum has added nothing since replacing in.

I wouldn't hold it against f-light, but I'm actually seeing hohum around the site in places OTHER than "Need replacement for hohum" and "/in for next" in the Queue subforum (at the same time), so there's something to be said for pressuring him.

That's just it, I don't have strong opinions on a lot of people yet. Like you said, the chances of him being scum are rather random. If he's simply misunderstood, I think perhaps he fails to see that it might be his own doing.

I really don't like the lack of taking stances here. Nobody said you had to have a solid opinion; just one for the record. "I don't know" is okay; "who knows" isn't.

Juls' mistake... doesn't really change anything I said before AFAIK, but it does make the whole affair from earlier look ridiculous. I'll go ahead and drop PokerFace for a while; I'm starting to like the idea of a charlatan vote.
(On an unrelated note, how often do people misread their Role PMs? I've never had a problem...)

And... that's all I have. After rereading charlatan in isolation, I have no objections with an

Unvote: PokerFace
Vote: charlatan

(L-5)

[Vi]

Not exactly accurate. What did I have to defend myself from? A quote was misattributed to me. I pointed this out because it's either an honest slip that needed correction, or it's someone fabricating a reason to attack a player who wasn't entirely with the game at that point. You call it "defense", I call it scumhunting.

I see what you're saying, but I'm not sure I would call it scumhunting yet.

This isn't quite right, either. If you did in fact read my posts in isolation, you would've seen the post before where I explicitly said I found his play scummy. If you can explain to me how "I don't have my mind made up" is significantly different from your a-okay "I don't know" example, I'll pay more attention to this complaint.

The first time you mention d_j is in #7, where you walk in on the argument as if you had been a part all along. You end with a rather weak "yeah that's scummy".
Your worst accusation against d_j is that he's either scum trying to blanket suspicion everywhere, or "an overly pessimistic Townie" who doesn't know what a "misrepresentation" is. And according to you, the possibility of one or the other is about equal... meaning... who knows? And evidently you're not terribly interested in pursuing the d_j hunt, since your vote is on a lurker... If that's your strongest effort so far, then yes, I think your hunting is weak. (Granted, hohum kind of DID admit to lurking, so yeah.)

Incidentally, I kind of agree with what I think d_j is saying in this regard. He gave a clear top choice for a suspect, and then a number of people worth investigating. A direction and a focus.
(To contrast, I really hate d_j's recent post trying to self-meta.)

[Vi]

how am i "trying to self-meta"? i was asked a question about my meta, and more specifically i was asked to explain why towndj in one game is different from towndj in another. i don't think i brought the meta argument up in any way. don_johnson generally frowns on meta arguments unless they are substantial. personally, it seems that gorrad is the one "trying to self-meta." but what do i know...

Point taken, Vi needs to learn to read, etc.

-----

Would you have preferred that I not commented at all? Never got involved? I caught up, and I started to get engaged. Is there something I needed to have done before to earn the right to an opinion on the matter?

You certainly could have gotten more involved than you did, because your input was weak in addition to being a misrepresentation.

Correct. And hence, not voting for him straight away. I have no reason to pursue some grand case against the guy; I see potentially scummy play in people, I point it out, and I watch the responses. I also watch to see how others respond. This is not a terribly revolutionary approach.

I didn't ask you to have a "grand case against the guy". I'm looking to see if you have a clear direction. And as far as I can tell, you kinda don't.

No, it means I don't know for sure. Yet. Others (scum) do know for sure. Others may not know but have better reads, too (smarter folks than I). My uncertainty is just that: being aware that being suspicious of one thing doesn't make someone scum, and not pretending that I'm going to crack the case wide open in my first ten posts.

I'm reading this as an admission that your play is going to continue to be weak because you don't want to be wrong or take a risk? If you're Town, I'd suggest changing that.

If I were disinterested, I probably wouldn't still be keeping up the dialogue about it. Talking to him about that while being suspicious of Forbiddanlight/Hohum is pursuing more than one avenue at once -- if anything, it's almost as if you'd prefer I tunnel vision.

I'd prefer that you had a clear direction. At the time of your hohum vote, it seemed rather much like you were turning down your d_j questioning in favor of voting a lurker you hadn't mentioned before. (Since then hohum has admitted to lurking, and the vote has become more worthwhile.)

So let's make sure I understand correctly: Basically, I point out something I find potentially scummy in a player's behavior (not just one player, mind you), but I do not cast a vote against him because I want to use that vote elsewhere. You think the point I raised is weak (probably not a leap to assume non-vote-worthy), but are nonetheless displeased that I did not vote based on it. This doesn't seem inherently problematic to you?

Under the assumption that you do not think your own point is weak, no, it doesn't.

Incidentally, this thread COULD use more Juls. And Zilla.

[Vi]

I don't know how that makes the previous exchange ridiculous. Pokerface was fishing for a character name before I ever made that comment.

It was starting to feel that way. Again, I don't think I was necessarily on the WRONG track, but at that point we were just going into flavor-setup guessing that I didn't think was going to get anywhere further.

Incidentally, this thread COULD use more Juls. And Zilla.

You are the second person who has said this. I don't know what else you guys want from me. I have read this thread front to back twice with two corresponding wall posts and made multiple short comments as well. I have answered everything that was asked of me (to the best of my knowledge) and have asked questions of others. I am not goin to post for the sake of posting. I am following along and participating. If there is something specific you want out of me I will do my best to oblige.

Are you still suspicious of charlatan?
Are you still suspicious of don_johnson?
Are you still suspicious of PokerFace?

[Vi]

I'm back. Time to get caught up, etc.

Not only is it baseless, considering you only seen enough posts from me to count on one hand

And you don't see this as a *bad thing*?

Not seeing where charlatan pointed out why he was voting f-light/hohum is surprising, considering the blurb about it is rather easy to see directly above where he voted. It looks kind of weak, but hohum's digging a hole for himself so I'm minding it somewhat less.

To put it another way, the sentence you highlighted is a rocking drum beat and the second part you ignored is the bitching guitar solo. You have to listen to the whole song to appreciate it.

Truth be told, it makes even less sense when put this way. (given how I tend to forget what people say very quickly, this says bad things about me)
I do agree with this, though. I think Zilla is misreading at best here.

ZEEnon 325 is

ludicrous

, made of what's probably unintentional misrepresentation. Granted, while I think it's unintentional (nobody would take things out of context

that

much), that hardly implies it's not scummy.
The explanation "I don't read

[don_johnson's]

posts" hardly makes me feel better about it.

Are you seriously advocating a case on me based on the fact that I don't have an opinion?

If he isn't,

I will.

Anyone who is punishing people for not drawing solid conclusions is scummy.

Ah, about that. No.

Now that I'm awake and sharing opinions you don't like them, but you didn't actually ask me anything.

Ah, about that. No.

Just looks like a poor excuse for trying to appear to contribute.

Irony, given that this post seems to come from nowhere. Nice avatar, though. (I didn't think your name had anything to do with rhinos, though... I remember asking you what it meant once, but I forgot.)

hohum 343 can be paraphrased quite succinctly as "I don't want to scumhunt; look someplace else".

-----

This argument with hohum is making charlatan look considerably better for the moment. Let me look into f-light/hohum.

What bothers me about f-light when she was here was that despite being strapped for time, she posted walls of quotes and short responses. And probably over half of those quotes/responses were about things that either had nothing to do with the game, or were pretty much irrelevant, or were misinterpretations. hohum has posted... little to satisfy anyone. Lots of words, little content, nothing impressive by any pragmatic means.

Unvote: charlatan
Vote: hohum

(L-5)

[Vi]

I can understand why people are suspicious of hohum/FL. But I can also rationalize FL as being disinterested/busy and making a half-ass effort. Town do that too you know. I don't know why hohum has gotten the strong wagon as opposed to Zeenon who admittedly doesn't read posts or Xtoxm who doesn't weigh in at all coupled with SG's overly cautious/apologetic attitude.

Too many scummy people, too few unlimited dayvigs.

I even paid Jahudo to get the Fritzler role and he waffled on me

Is there any single candidate you would recommend over hohum? Why?

[Vi]

What about Xtoxm's play has corraborated your suspicions on SG? He hasn't done much one way or another right now, imo.

What is your opinion on his scumdar readout?

[Vi]

What is your opinion on his scumdar readout?

Seems pretty crappy to me. He thinks most everyone is town and has a neutral or no read (is there a difference?) on everyone else. It shows to me that he's not really trying, which is supported by him saying 'I'd be willing to lynch anyone of the last 4 on my list'.

Your thoughts on it?

It would be hypocritical for me to say that intuitive reads mean nothing, but what bothers me is his utter inability to back up his reads, as evidenced by the "explanation" of his read on hohum.

The case on ShadowGirl was based on an early quote, somewhere around Page 2. Her main offense is apparently not knowing enough about Juls. Rereading ShadowGirl's posts in isolation, I'm having a hard time calling her out for scum. Considering I also have heard that Xtoxm's meta is... unsavory, I'm really not that inclined to call Xtoxm scum atm.

[Vi]

I'm always pleased to hear that people don't feel me up.

[Vi]

this hohum vs. xtorm argument has me literally on the floor...

Xtorm: hohum is town.

Hohum: Actually, I'm pretty scummy. The only reason you know I'm town is because you're scum.

More relevant content please.

Vi - I'm gonna be playing on the assumption you're a girl, btw. Not because I think that, but because it would be the more productive route, given what I know about my scumhunting.

So "No Read" is more productive than something...?

[Vi]

@PokerFace: Read the sentences before the one you bolded.

In brief, I believe Xtoxm's claim.

I'm more comfortable with hohum for the moment after this dust-up.

Vi's Carousel of Death!

is currently pointing to PokerFace, Rhinox, and Zilla.

Unvote: hohum
Vote: PokerFace

(L-6)

[Vi]

Now that I have my computer back, I can reread these last few pages the way I want to, and... it looks like I have some new stuff to read.

Even when she's on offense Juls seems to be on defense. I need to look at her reasons for voting PokerFace again (reread: Is it just based on the nameclaim thing?). Of all the ways to go about disputing a D1 Mason claim, I think Juls' way is one of the most sketchy. I disagree with Xtoxm 465, but I don't think he's anti-Town for saying it.

The counterpoint is that I don't think I've seen ZEEnon so active in this game up until now. Someone who's only active when under scrutiny isn't very comforting. Why does ZEEnon vote charlatan for the sake of "changing the subject"?

Why the hell would I claim mason as scum? It's just about the worst claim for scum to make.

Except... it's really not. See Juls 495.

I agree with PokerFace 459 against Gorrad. Blaming bad play on policy/playstyle is one of my worst things to see in a game.
What I don't see in 459 is a clear direction of who PokerFace thinks is scummy/focusing on. VP Baltar maybe? You're not voting anyone, if the vote count is any indication.

Zilla 485 seems like a generic summarypost wherein she expresses bad opinions of everyone around and says little that's all that insightful. Responding to Zilla 491 - Your posting style has been suspect. Since you don't have your V/LA in your sig I can't tell if you're on it or not, but recently you seem to just be flowing with the crowd, slipping under the radar - somewhat disturbing considering the walls the two of us were putting together earlier.

Vi - (...) What do you make of Juls reaction to the claim?

It's pretty scummy. I think ZEEnon is overdoing the accusations, though. And Juls 495 actually does have a valid point to it (note to self: Try this later... oh wait, I usually AM a Neighbor to obvscum <_< ). Also, Xtoxm 497 bites - as nearly all self-meta arguments do. At the end of the day, I think everyone's just being catty about the whole affair.

Rhinox 494 is weak. So is 505. Rhinox's recent posts have just seemed really sparse and weak recently; it's not what I'd expect of him. I would be more than willing to wagon Rhinox, as mentioned in my previous post.

charlatan, are you still in favor of a hohum lynch?

@mod: I'd like a deadline extension.

Cut.

Woah. Everything I said in defense of Gorrad is negated by his play since my last post. I was going off his early day play, up through his spat with VP, which looked town to me. Now, he's pretty irrefutably scummy.

Woah. Total 180 to the popular lynch. Seriously, what changed your mind?

Juls is pretty much forcing us into a position where we'll have to lynch her eventually.

Wait, what!?

Hey ZEEtoxm, what are your flavor names?

------

I will be shocked - nay, astounded - if both of Rhinox and Zilla are Town. All of the existing wagons are lame, except maybe the charlatan and PokerFace ones.

Unvote: PokerFace
Vote: Rhinox

(L-6)

[Vi]

First thing, I think Juls' approach to "confirming" the Commuter part of her role was rather bad. Then again, I can't think of a good way to do it offhand.

-----

Well is there anything that I haven't commented on that you would like to hear something from me? Claiming that my posts are weak without any explanation is rather... well, weak.

I think I need to take some time to reread. I think hohum and gorrad are scummy as hell, so the fact that no one else seems to agree with me tells me either 1 of 2 things are happening: 1) I'm right, but I'm not getting any support because other scum aren't helping the wagon along and I haven't managed to convince the town players yet, or 2) I'm completely wrong, other town players don't find them at all scummy and scum aren't pushing the wagons now because they would be more opportunistic mislynches later in the game. Either way, pursuing a lynch on either hohum or gorrad right now feels like trying to run in water, so I might as well go look somewhere else.

This is the best scumhunting in post 494 (I don't consider role-based discussion to be scumhunting). But there's a glaring problem with this - at the time of your unvote,

hohum was the leading wagon

. Zilla just got done saying that her vote was going to STAY on hohum. Incidentally, what IS your opinion on Zilla? Go for VP Baltar, too, but I've already seen your thought on the Zilla/VP Baltar interaction.

Its basically just the claiming that he hasn't done anything usefu so no one should have a town read on him, the calling himself town a couple times when it should just be assumed that everyone considers themselves town, the emotional back and forth beteen him and xtoxm, and the whole lynch me and if I show up as town then x is scum. Maybe AtE isn't exactly the right term. Idk, I always though referring to yourself flipping town and saying things like "well I haven't really done anything useful" to be AtEs.

Anyways, I'm not really putting that much weight into it because I don't believe AtE is a scum tell.

Wait, you unvoted hohum because nobody else was interested in him (false), but now you're saying that one of his more bizarre actions in attempting to scumhunt isn't a scumtell? It seems like you're artificially backing off.
ftr, I don't see it as an Appeal to Emotion. Read it for what it is, an admission that his play's been horrible and a challenge to someone who said otherwise without backing it up. I'd say something similar in hohum's situation

Do you think VP Baltar is scummy for suggesting that a Cop should investigate the Masons? What about Zilla, charlatan, etc.

Why aren't you voting?

Whats the big problem with this statement? is it the lynch part, or the eventually part? Re: the lynch part, she claimed miller, she asked to be vig and then admitted it would have been a waste, and she hasn't exactly been handling the pressure that comes with claiming miller D1 in a very pro-town way at all. We also can't count on a vig or mafia taking out juls even if she is town, because no one but juls knows the extent of when she's commuting. I could guess odd-nights, but thats just a guess.

Anyways, this is a player that is a liability to the town and one that pretty much has to be lynched. The eventually part means sometime before we get into LyLo.

I'd support a juls lynch today, but there are a number of other lynches I'd support as well, namely Hohum and Gorrad.

What you're describing here is a

policy lynch

, which I am quite against. It would appear that you don't find Juls suspicious enough to push for her lynch (rather saying you would be for it if it happened), which suggests that you don't find her relatively scummy - you only want her dead for her role, which in my experience hasn't hit scum yet. Last, "sometime before we get into LyLo" is probably

tomorrow

and will put us

into

LyLo. You'd like that, wouldn't you~

Thats a pretty slick false dilemna you snuck in there.

Policy lynches and false dilemmas. I haven't seen these arguments since... actually, the last time you were Mafia. Thinking about it, they're actually pretty good scum arguments; I've got to remember them for when/if I ever get a Mafia PM in a Newbie game.
For the sake of entertaining the audience, though, how is this different from saying "X is scum and so is Y"? I'm up for lynching either of you, with no guarantees of being right but being sure enough of myself to say I would be shocked-nay-astounded if I'm wrong. I see nothing wrong.

The part I bolded also seems a little hypocritical - there is currently a wagon on Juls, and in 2 separate instances in 542 you stated how you felt juls was acting scummy, so why now say you think the wagon on her is lame? Also, claiming that the pokerface wagon is *not lame* seems odd coming from someone jumping off the wagon...

Juls is acting scummy, true. I'm reading Town who doesn't know how to play her role. And you appear to be thinking along the same lines.

@Juls: I'm glad you decided to claim now rather than after a failed vig attempt, but now I wish you hadn't asked to be vigged at all. How were you expecting that to work out? Claiming commuter after a failed vig attempt is about the same thing as claiming miller after being investigated, or asking to be investigated when you're a GF. I wouldn't believe communter after that happened, I'd be more inclined to think UNK sk or UNK GF. And if you really are a miller, if mafia was even thinking about nking you tonight, they aren't now.

This reads like you believe Juls' Miller claim.
I'm unvoting PokerFace to vote someone that I feel is more likely to be scum. This doesn't clear him by any means. This isn't rocket surgery or even brain science.

-----

Actually, I think the charlatan wagon is probably the weakest so far in the game. I haven't seen really any anti-town behaviour from him, and I don't remember a clear cut case. Why do you think he would be lynch worthy?

Intuition plays a part in it, and his attention has still been narrowly focused. He said he's going to post when he can, so I'll wait and see what he has to say about nothohum. But it is one of the weakest of my suspicions at the moment.

[Vi]

Basically, I'm seeing lots of people I consider scummy accusing other people I see as scummy, and I'm feeling my radar is broken. Seeing a flip would help a lot in this mess, and as usual,

a flip closer to the heart of this tangled up knot would help with reads on the other people near that knot.

Please elaborate on this.

I will be shocked - nay, astounded - if both of Rhinox and Zilla are Town.

Is this a one-or-the-other case or "at least one" case? If it's one or the other, why?

At least one. ~(R&Z)

Why does that part even need confirming? Isn't that counter-productive in that you want scum to waste targets on it?

It would confirm that there's more to her role than just the Millerhood, which would satisfy something she said earlier. It seems like the role was designed to be something where you either claim OR you try to get killed on whatever Nights the commuting works... but you can't really do both. If Juls' claim is accurate - and I think it is - I should give Jahudo my compliments for the interesting idea.

and steal it

ftr, the corresponding trueclaim if Juls is gambiting is NK-immune Godfather. You can WIFOM the possibilities up on your own; I just have to ask if Juls is also a Vig

Zilla, what is your opinion of the anti-Rhino?

[Vi]

There isn't much I can do to elaborate. I can clarify, I guess. Just that there's people in the spotlight, and Xtoxm is tied to ZEEnon, and Hohum has a case on Xtoxm, and Juls is being vouchsafed by Xtoxm, and basically, all these threads would be easier to judge knowing someone's alignment in the mix. Obviously town Xtoxm 99% clears ZEEnon (still possible that despite them being able to claim each other's alignment that Jahudo lied to them) and vice versa, and scum Xtoxm 99% implicates ZEEnon (again, he could have been a hidden traitor), and vice versa. Superficially, town Xtoxm makes Hohum scummier, but I'm not feeling like Hohum is playing on that level of direct linking. I wouldn't throw out the possibility of Xtoxm and Hohum being scumbuddies distancing. I would say scum Xtoxm hurts Juls a little just by initial read, since he seems to be fond of backing her based on feel.

Juls and hohum are less useful for flip, since they don't have links to each other yet, at least not as strongly. Ho-scum clears Charlatan a bit I think; I don't think Charlatan was bussing or distancing with his case. I'm not sure how it impacts ZEEnon/Xtoxm though, since again, that could be distancing to me. Ho-town is also a tough read. That means he doesn't have outside info on Xtoxm, but he sure feels like he can call him already based on Xtoxm's reaction to his wagon.

Juls could say a lot about people who have been pushing/defending her. Scum Juls implicates Xtoxm to me for defending her, and some other people deserve looking into for any signs of irrationally defending her. Town Juls is tougher to call, since again, scum could defend her to look pro-town.

Does that cover it?

Almost.
How much are you interested in pushing hohum (or anyone) because they're

scummy

, and not because they are of utility to you? It seems like there's some confusion here. (This is especially noteworthy since you go into how lynching the ho doesn't actually do much for your reads.)

I don't like your analysis of Juls' claimed role. Why is it one or the other, and again, why would it be pro-town to confirm commuting? She asked for the vig about the same time she alluded that her role was more than miller. I thought she was lying about the more-than-a-miller to try to draw scum actions, but apparently that's not the case. If what she's claiming is true, I don't see any pro-town motive for wasting a vig kill and then claiming commuter after the failure.

Strategically speaking, scum don't usually kill Millers and Cops aren't expected to investigate people who are acting in such a way that they would benefit from commuting.
The only way it's pro-Town to confirm it is to demonstrate that Juls was telling the truth about her softclaim in the first place. Do you think Juls is making this up out of the air, or are you willing to say it was a bad move on Juls' part to claim as she did?

You're also using bad logic to say her scum gambit would mean she was bulletproof Godfather. What's to say she isn't just bulletproof scum running the gambit? Is scum commuter a forbidden role? I think she could even be vanilla scum with this roleclaim.

Godfather is the role name for NK-immune scum and/or investigation-immune scum, so you're quibbling over terminology here. I think I've seen scum Commuter befo--or no, Gorrad was Town in that game And of course the possibility is open that Juls is making this up as she goes along, zwet-style.
That said, I'd like to know what You Think about Juls'

alignment

. I don't think Juls needs more lecturing about what her pro-Town options were regardless of her alignment, and going over what

could

be is not nearly as useful as what

most likely is

.

My opinion on the anti-Rhino? There will be signs that indicate the arrival of the anti-Rhino, who will be known as the deceiver. The moon will be as blood, the seas shall give up- Oh, you mean what's my opinion on your case on Rhinox?

Actually, I'm tempted to tell you to keep reading from the book of Rhinolation
But I wasn't really interested in your opinion of my opinion; I was more interested in your own opinion of Rhinox.

[Vi]

And of course the possibility is open that Juls is making this up as she goes along, zwet-style.

Ouch...talk about insults...

It's only a possibility

Are you still interested in playing? We can still lynch scum today.

[Vi]

See last sentence of 551

Well, in that case, would you like to place a vote?

[Vi]

vi: why do you require "flavor" from the claimed masons if you are not overly suspicious of them?

Future reference. The flavor secrecy from earlier doesn't really apply any more.

[Vi]

vi: why do you require "flavor" from the claimed masons if you are not overly suspicious of them?

Future reference. The flavor secrecy from earlier doesn't really apply any more.

ok. so give us your flavor.

You win an imaginary brownie if you figure out what the difference is between asking for flavor from someone who hasn't claimed and asking for flavor from someone who HAS claimed.

-----

the claim that he was acting scummy on purpose

with a confusing follow-up,

!?
Source please.

I don't understand what you're saying with the cop investigation. Then you're agreeing with me that there's negligible benefit and more scumminess to asking for a vig on a commute night?

Negligible benefit, yes. More scumminess depends on how you view Juls in the first place.

Last, I don't understand your last question, and the mutual exclusivity of the two. Could you be more direct?

Is Juls scum?

This is in a state of change and depends on his answer. I don't want to tip him off on how to answer correctly, so this is pending his response.

I really don't buy this.

Vi: What do you think about Xtoxm/ZEEnon's claim, and what we should do about it?

I don't mind it, and don't really think it's a bad idea to let them be for now.

[Vi]

Thread needs more PF. He's falling off the map fast and my read on him is not as solid as I want it to be.

This.
Also, charlatan, why did you choose that screen name?

Could someone voting Rhinox (preferably Juls, actually) sum up the case on Rhinox for me? I feel like this is crucial but it hasn't stood out to me as much. I see that he backed off of his Hohum vote for reasons that didn't exist (obvious red flag) and I find his interactions with Juls confusing, but I might be missing more because I'm not inclined to vote him at the moment.

Speaking from meta I think Rhinox is posting a lot less and less frequently than his norm.
I'd also throw on how his "scumhunting" has had little to do with how people are acting and more to do with role-based guessing, thereby sparing him from commenting on most of the rest of what's going on unless I'm bothering him.

-----

I think Juls could be scum, and I think that's self-evident if you're actually reading my posts.

I

am

reading your posts, and your reads on Juls have been as vacuous and noninformative as this one.

558-561 looks like scum prodding scum to join the wagon. I especially don't like the "We can still lynch scum today" thing.

Are you serious? Now

I'm

scum? I know we've been having words between us recently, but I don't remember you coming out and saying that I'm scum.
This is the kind of throwaway statement I'd expect from n00by Town in their first Mini Normal... not you.

Xtoxm also apparently thinks 99% in favor of them being paired is "trying to keep the 2nd one a viable mislynch." All I'm saying is that "mod confirmed" doesn't mean "Mod didn't lie as per role setup."

Which is, y'know, bastard modding. Are you seriously suggesting that Xtoxm should leave the possibility of ZEEnon-scum open in case the mod blatantly lied to him?
I seriously feel like I should have picked one of these up over my mini-vacation earlier this week.

-----

I will not be voting Rhinox today, even if it means no lynch.

Okay, I'll play. Why don't you want Rhinox lynched?
Since I don't intend to vote Juls today, we can meet in the middle and vote Zilla. What say?

-----

you'll be glad to know: i ain't feelin' ya.

Always a relief to hear.

All right, responding to your accusation in one shot.
*Named characters are most likely scum in this game. I hold to this.
*PokerFace implied he had a name. Thus, scum. Thus, a claim would have solved this.
*"The commuter bit" is not a flavor claim. I didn't want Juls to claim because I believed her and didn't want to show what a falseclaim may look like to the scum.
*She claimed anyway. Show's over; the secret's not really there any more. I basically asked the Masons to flavor claim offhand because I didn't think there was much of a point in keeping secrets at this point.
*Even if you don't buy the above, I have to express incredulity that you think that this mistake is worth voting me over considering everything else people have done.

------
===
------

tl;dr Can we please get some hate on Rhinox and Zilla ITT? Yes, that means people other than Juls, me, and Zilla have to post on the subject.

[Vi]

Because his reaction to the claim was very pro-town.

I'm assuming you mean YOUR claim?
Considering he referenced past experience to determine his response to your claim, I think an implication would be that if he acted differently than he did, the people who knew his meta would call him out for it.

Unvote: Rhinox
Vote: Zilla

(L-5)
My opinion on this wagon.

[Vi]

pre-emptive OMGUS much?

No, actually. I don't care if you vote me.

Re: Juls

Her play has been scummy, she's likely scum, apparently since I'm not 100% certain, I must be scum. wtf?

Gross oversimplification at the end aside, this is one of the first times I remember you saying Juls is likely scum (as opposed to "I don't know" or nothing at all).

Re: scum prodding

I'm calling it as I see it. Same goes for your thing with Xtoxm, trying to cut him a deal. That looks patently scummy.

How so? I've been saying I'm willing to lynch either of you for a while now. But I can't lynch someone by myself y'know.

Re: Bastard modding.

Exactly. You're doing the exact same thing as Xtoxm, in that you're trying to make 1% sound like 50%. That 1% is all based on the off-chance that Jahudo was lying to them.

When did this turn into House of Mirrors Mafia? I'm saying that if Xtoxm had his partner modcleared, then his partner is modcleared. You're pushing the 1%.

Now, are you going to actually put a case on me, or are you just running up anybody on anything you feel like at the moment? Did rhinox's lack of posting somehow answer your accusation of his contradiction on Juls? Why vote me just because Xtoxm refuses to vote Rhinox?

Formal cases are overrated; all you have to do is look at my posts up to this point (did you really think I was making casual conversation with these giant pointy quote walls?). Rhinox is hardly cleared and is probably also scum; I'm simply going with whichever of the two of you is more likely to be lynched.

I wish you had bought the button, it'd be in easy access whenever you're around .

Someone needs to make it into a web applet or something, similar to instantrimshot.com.

[Vi]

at this point, vi's "blind faith" could be scum buddying to town or scum protecting scum.

'Nice that you're keeping an open mind about things...
You call it "blind faith" (in quotation marks) that I believe Juls is Town. Do you think it quite possible that you are blindly believing I'm scum?

still not feelin' ya. did you or did you not

believe

the mason claim? if you believed them, what purpose does the flavor serve?

Yes, I believed the claim. The flavor served as confirmation of sorts.
See also the last part of what I said.

*Even if you don't buy the above, I have to express incredulity that you think that this mistake is worth voting me over considering everything else people have done.

Formal cases are overrated; all you have to do is look at my posts up to this point (did you really think I was making casual conversation with these giant pointy quote walls?). Rhinox is hardly cleared and is probably also scum; I'm simply going with whichever of the two of you is more likely to be lynched.

again, where does getting the masons to reveal flavor fit into any of this?

Why should it fit in? Completely separate topic.

Where you are making sense, you're tunneling over a trifle.
I don't really mind if you keep up this offense against me - although I'm going to begin ignoring you if you don't provide some better arguments - but I'd like for you to look at players not named Vi or Juls.

------

It's a tough case to crack, I'm highly surprised you think it's an easy matter. I'm not even sure on the "likely scum," and I have no idea why this makes me scummy. Logic please? Juls has made plays that benefit scumJuls all over the place, yet it's still possible that she's town. You yourself seem to believe she's town. Please, somehow relate this to how I'm scummy.

So you've been talking about Juls, Juls, JulsJulsJuls for quite a while now, but you're doing your best NOT to express a solid opinion on her. Even now you're saying that Juls is likely scum, but possibly not as well. Are you going to commit to anything sometime today (and preferably well before deadline)? I'm not asking for you to say Juls is 100% scum or Town, but I'd like for you to go one way or the other without attaching a disclaimer to the end that would potentially help yourself change positions quickly if you have to.

(Lest I need to say it plainly, I find that your continuous discussion re: Juls without any definite conclusion is what I would expect scum to do.)

I also don't see how it's down to me and Rhinox, and how one is apparently just as good as the other.

I don't have particularly scummy reads on many people. You and Rhinox stand out. Third place is PokerFace. Fourth is d_j. VP Baltar is noted for being in the background a lot, and tbqh I'd like to place Gorrad on hold considering I found him tremendously scummy as Town in the last game I was in with him.

Quote me. Where am I pushing the 1% as anything but?

On this page: Xtoxm can't read.

I was talking about Hohum's "setup" regarding his and Xtoxm's flips. Xtoxm also apparently thinks 99% in favor of them being paired is "trying to keep the 2nd one a viable mislynch."

All I'm saying is that "mod confirmed" doesn't mean "Mod didn't lie as per role setup."

Why do you even have to bring this up? Are you so eager to discredit the Masons that you're going to suggest that Jahudo bastard-lied to them?

(In related news, where is ZEEnon?)

You're pushing a terrible case with no basis, at best that makes you clueless town, at worst that makes you... not even opportunistic scum, something like the complete opposite. I don't know what the hell you are, because it's sloppy, and given how you appear to make reasoned judgments, this seems very uncharacteristic of you. I don't see either scum or town doing this, really.

And aside from your vote-barkering, you seem to be trying to scumhunt, and at least mildly pro-town. I don't feel right calling you scum, but I don't know how to explain such a slipshod attack.

Very well...
1) You refuse to provide your opinion of Rhinox. I don't buy your "my opinion hinges on his response" filler. In addition to that, your opinion on Rhinox only seemed to sway into this limbo when I "suggested" you should find him scummy; your only previous mention of him after Page 10 was FoSing him for not wanting to investigate the Masons.
2) Your attempt to discredit the Masons. It's not fallacious. I find that you allowed the possibility of the mod lying to the Masons to be worth mentioning to be rather limited. In a Natirasha game? Sure. In a Jahudo game? I wouldn't expect it, especially since it's more "polite"/professional to not lie to your players in favor of simply leaving details out, and from what I know of Jahudo I would expect him to abide by this kind of thought.
3) Your opinion on Juls never seems to settle. Now that I've prodded you to say something, you're saying "scummy but maybe Town". In other words, inconclusive but leaning one way enough to mention it. But you talk a LOT about Juls' claim and whether she should be lynched. Wasting time and drawing attention someplace else? Yes, I think so.
3.5) The notion that you don't seem to give solid opinions without provocation is what got my attention in the first place.
4) On that note, I really, really hate your post about lynching for information; especially as it relates to the claimed Masons and Miller. With no mention of particular scumminess, you're suggesting what amounts to a choice in policy lynches, which seems like a recipe for guaranteed failure.
5) When I pointed out that your posting style changed to something more vague and contentless than before, you responded that it was because three scummy people claimed and you didn't know what to do. The answer to that seems rather simple - look at the other players and determine if they're Town or not. After some process of elimination which may take a couple of Days, you can decide on whether to believe the claim. That you bring up "hard evidence" as a factor in your confusion suggests that this problem will continue to petrify you until said "evidence" arrives (and from my experience it likely won't). This goes back to being ambiguously ambiguous about what's going on inthread.
6) You're asking for a solid "case" on you. Compare this with the reasons for your 180 on Gorrad.

-----

What's with the fascination over screennames?

When I'm not calling for everyone around me to die, I like getting to know the people I'm playing with a little. The pragmatic and tempermental Vi you see is something of an exaggeration of part of my personality that I find works for Mafia; if I didn't have a Win Condition to fulfill I'd just as soon talk for a while with the Random People Over the Internet^TM that I run across.

-----

Claim aside, do you think Juls has been acting town?

If I did not believe I had an idea of how Juls' personality works, I would say no.

Worth noting Xtoxm replaces ShadowGirl. I'm seeing a trend of backing up Juls and SG/Xtoxm. SG wasn't all that scummy, IMO, but Xtoxm is a world of difference.

I'm fairly sure I said something to that effect, or maybe that was on my vacation. I'm not terribly pleased with Xtoxm's opinions-now-explanations-never approach to Mafia, but I was told to expect something like this from him from others who have seen him play. Also considering I didn't find ShadowGirl that scummy and Xtoxm has claimed a pro-Town role, I'm not having much trouble buying it.

Reading through Vi's vote history, apparently if you don't want her to vote you, you shut up and don't post. That seems to get her to change her vote pretty fast.

No, I still think PokerFace is worth investigation and Rhinox is scum
This topic DOES need a larger variety of people in it, though. I'm spending a lot of time and attention with you because, well, you're responding.
Or is there someone in particular you would like for me to focus more on?

[Vi]

Let's see how concise I can make this.

@mod: Prod ZEEnon.

I also believe Juls claim. Commuter and miller when compared to faye being a romani make some sence. There is no proper character names with either one which makes sence.

If you don't mind me flopping on the issue briefly, what do you think of the notion that Juls could be THE Romani - Faye Valentine?

When I say this looks scummy or that looks scummy that's my view on what I think may be scum. As far as focus I rarely tunnel vision day one simply because I always assume more than one scum this early.

In most games outside IRC, yes, there is more than one scum. However, you have one vote... and liberally spreading suspicion everywhere doesn't help place that vote while reserving your vote seems ineffective for scumhunting IMO.

Regarding Rhinox's response to the Mason claim: Don't get me wrong, I think Rhinox made the right play. But demonstrating that he had an ulterior motive in responding a certain way doesn't help my opinions.

-----

I've never gotten a role PM myself saying "this is mod-confirmed," and I didn't even know those existed, and I have no experience on what defines a "bastard mafia." and where I come from, traitors are something to watch out for, so I'm not one to trust a role PM saying your mason is clean.

Could you briefly describe what kinds of games that go on "where you come from"?

It's another example where apparently trying to think of all possible scenarios (and even going so far as to say that that scenario has an extremely low likelihood) apparently means I'm scum, which is stupid.

Have you ever heard anything about how some setup speculation, especially after N0, is anti-Town?

I don't "talk a LOT about Juls' claim" unprompted. I have no idea where you're getting that I talk about "whether she should be lynched." I don't want her lynched right now.

But you said you think she's likely scum so--this is getting tiring.
Also, the whole utility lynch post (see below). When I've asked you about Juls, it was from when I thought I saw you color commentating on the claim circus.

And my case on Pokerface is nothing? My case on VP is nothing? My case on Hohum is nothing? My agreeing with Charlatan is nothing? What game are you reading?

The early case on PokerFace is something. You kind of dropped it entirely at one point, though. Do you think the nameclaim banter that eventually led to speculation about Cowboy Andy made PokerFace look more Town?
I've seen no real problem with VP Baltar up to this point, other than being in the background. Jahudo has some idea of what this is like
I don't see any case from you on charlatan at this point. Did you mean hohum? I would consider hohum lazy Town at this point, if it weren't for the "deliberate lightning rod" point you brought up. That is worth something.
I have no idea what game I'm reading. The nice people in the white coats show me topics on the screen, I respond, and they give me cheese. This is

the life!

You're the one who asked me about it. Notice I'm still voting Hohum, based on being scummy, not for information? Notice that I'm not pushing lynching on information? All my initial saying was that a flip would help in figuring out the mess there due to relevance. You're skewing this way out of proportion.

Possibly so. Of course, I asked about it because I didn't believe was I was reading the first time. I didn't "make you" post that.

What IS your opinion of Gorrad at this point?

I am also suspicious of PokerFace hopping onto the Zilla wagon (and in general, again), but I don't think I have the material to launch a full-scale inquisition per normal so far.

I may be blind for not seeing it, but I can't find this supposed slip from VP Baltar on Gorrad. Could someone point me that way?

-----

@Xtoxm: This isn't supposed to be an easy game to read; almost everyone here was invited. This is the first time I've heard of frustration, though. Are you terribly concerned with where your vote goes today?

-----

Because I'm a charlatan.

Most people don't consider that a compliment

So you say I'm attacking people based on playstyle differences. That could be fair. What is your own opinion of Zilla, Rhinox, PokerFace, and whoever else?

-----

The flavor speculation between PokerFace and d_j is really sketchy IMO.

-----

Regarding my statements on Juls' claim: I was explaining the role as it appeared to me. I was not endorsing Juls' method of confirming it. If you don't think her claim is legitimate, take it up with either Jahudo (after the game) or Juls.

While I do think you (VP Baltar) have been hiding in the background for a while, that's the only thing I really think is scummy about you. It's generic suspicion based on perceived participation.

-----

tl;dr Kangaroos with boxing gloves!

[Vi]

I may be blind for not seeing it, but I can't find this supposed slip from VP Baltar on Gorrad. Could someone point me that way?

Gorrad said this. Then I called him on trying slip by on meta. Pokerface then said that I was implying I had knowledge of Gorrad being town, ie "the slip".

That is not a slip, and I do think less of PokerFace's alignment for pushing it as one.

---

how so? i find this a dubious statement coming from someone who asked for the masons flavor.

You have a point...
However, I would prefer if we kept setup speculation to the early part of the game and heeded the obvious 100% flavor warning on the day-opening post. This unfounded discussion about two scumgroups and/or six scum has basis in nothing but flavor (and not even necessarily that), and I do find it scummy to bring it up as a distraction. Never mind that the flavor notes were already a factor in discussions previously, which makes me question how you could have thought the Red Dragon elders were scum...

---

Anyone else you'd like to know about? I'm happy to answer specific questions, but I actually think giving full rundowns on every player is potentially helpful to scum and try to comment on players I don't find very scummy only when it's relevant.

Just one, and even then, not really.
I'd ask if your vote is best served on hohum, but I'd rather you didn't answer until hohum catches up (or a significant amount of time has passed). Zilla does kind of have a point in that I "see" contributors more readily than I do noncontributors.

---

Hohum was only the leading wagon due to my vote (3). You just unvoted, there were a couple other players with 2 votes, and like 4 other players with 1 vote. It is a misrepresentation to call the hohum wagon the "leading" wagon. There was no leading wagon, and there was insufficient support for a hohum lynch at the time I unvoted, which is what I meant by saying "No one supported a hohum lynch".

Not buying it.

Regarding the bolded, what an odd and presumptuous statement... You're talking about a potential mislynch tomorrow putting us into lylo before we have even decided today's lynch. What if we lynch scum today? What if a vig or an sk kills mafia tonight? All you're doing is using a scare tactic here.

It's not, really. I assume the worst, considering in my limited experience the lynches and night-kills almost always hit Town, see?. There's a reason I use exclusive Town lynches/kills when I review setups - that's what happens, more often than not.
So, I would say there is an odd and presumptuous statement involved.

However, I do like this, although Zilla doesn't.

Regardless, if that were the case, yes, I absolutely would like it if lynching juls tomorrow would put us into LyLo. I would breathe a sigh of relief that Juls' lynch happened before LyLo, and wasn't the game ending mislynch. However, I wouldn't be going into the lynch assuming it would be a mislynch, and I never said the lynch had to occur tomorrow. It could happen today. It could happen D3. We don't yet know what new information we'll receive from todays lynch or tonights kills and roles that will affect tomorrow's decision.

The first half of this paragraph is manipulation, and it fails. Newbie 696. I was town, and I led what was essentially a policy lynch of Zazie before LyLo for being inactive, yet picking up prods, so the mod wouldn't replace her. Zazie ended up being town. Although the town lost, it was not a result of the mislynch - the other town player(s) said that had Zazie still been alive in LyLo, they would have certainly voted for her.

So if you're done trying to manufacture tells, the reason your statement is a problem to me is suppose I die, either through being lynched today, or nked tonight. That would just give you grounds to go after Zilla tomorrow for no reason other than you would be astounded if we were both town, so Zilla must be scum.

Something's bothering me about that first paragraph, but I can't nail it down. I will say that in the sample position, I would have policy lynched ZazieR, so I have some words to eat.

The second paragraph is failure in itself, partly because what you're suggesting is for me to be so scummy it's

obvious

.

After all, you certainly wouldn't put the poison in the goblet in front of you, therefore I cannot choose the wine in front of me!

There are a number of ways your fearmongering wouldn't be plausible:
1) Realistically, you getting NKd would force me to question my belief in Zilla being scum. Again,

obvious

. That and a few people certainly seem to suspect you now.
2) It's so obvious, in fact, that as you describe the situation I would virtually

expect

people to suspect a setup. In fact, Zilla already has. To think that I could seriously pull off a string of mislynches like this would frankly require me to presume that everyone here is stupid (which is not true).
3) Even if we played WIFOM and said "Oh well Vi probably wasn't doing that", do you really think everyone would still let me string lynches along if that was my intention without challenging it?

Interesting word choice there... possibly a slip. Its a wagon if you're town. Its only a bus if you and zeenon are both scum.

Looking into this... I think this needs clarification.

So... Char asks to summaraize the case on me, and you basically say the

only

reason you're voting me is meta?

*glares at you through the Internet* No...

And since you've ignored it, please go look at char 568 and give me your opinions on chars version of "I would get behind someone's lynch eventually", and tell me why you didn't feel it deserved even a notice from you.

Up until this point I thought intentional misrepresentation was more rhetorical than grounded in reality, but I really have no idea how you got "I'll back some lynch eventually" from "My vote on hohum is not locked on; we're not finished". ftr, charlatan's vote is still on hohum. 'Seems accountable for me.

You've used this twice now and I don't like it. Its kinda like you're saying, "sure, that flavor fishing there was wrong and kinda scummy, but other people are scummier

so this should just be ignored

". I don't like how you're just trying to dismiss the issue as minute in the grand scheme of things.

I think the bolded part just added itself.
I would hate for the flavor question to be the

sole

reason I'm being voted for/potentially lynched/hated/etc.

Not sure I like this attitude. If you think somebody is scum you shouldn't lighten up on them. Quiting case because of varying support values feels off since there were questions and votes with Gorrad and hohum around page 20.

OK.... so then what do you think about Vi here:

How so? I've been saying I'm willing to lynch either of you for a while now. But I can't lynch someone by myself y'know.

...considering its exactly the same thing I've been saying about hohum and gorrad?

How did you interpret "both are likely scum; I'll go for the one more likely to be lynched" as "I'm going to give up on the one that's less likely to be lynched"?

A claimed miller should not be allowed to survive to LyLo.

Disagreed about making this a principle.

wow... if this is true, this seems like a pretty big slip up here by PF.

"If this is true"? Both d_j and PokerFace are correct in this case - the four characters PokerFace listed ARE the crew members of the Bebop, and depending on the episode and Faye's current mood, the crew IS variable. I do take issue with don_johnson's ridiculous assertion that half the game is scum when one of the alleged teams isn't even fair game for being scum, but I also dislike how you're basically saying "this could be big, but I don't know". Especially considering while the day-opening post isn't intended to be more than flavor, it IS flavorfully accurate. And especially considering PokerFace cleared this supposed slip up immediately after the post you quoted.

On this subject, we need to lynch Jahudo sometime before LyLo. He softclaimed Ein in the rules post, and is therefore a member of the Bebop crew, and is therefore obvscum. Where's f-light when you need her?

Vi seems extra manipulative this game

Why thank you
Of course, it's apparently not good enough if you can tell

---

Ah well, I guess I'm declaring war after all.

*grabs spear and magic helmet*
(Of course YouTube removed the accompanying video... Well, you should know what this is referencing.)

How do you respond to a question like that?

"Honestly" is a good start
Obviously that question wasn't intended to produce an answer that would directly implicate you.

No, what? I've heard it can be a scumtell, but actually anti-town, no. I don't see how speculation is anti-town unless it gives scum insight they wouldn't have normally.

I think it was best put here. Disregard entirely that SpyreX was scum in that game.

I never accused you making me do anything, but I did point out you're lambasting me for answering your question. Apparently the right move in your eyes is not to answer your question?

Noooo... The right move would have been not saying what you did in the first place.

Setting up a counter-lynch, perhaps? I can see a scum-Vi leading a mislynch on me today, and then a mislynch on Pokerface tomorrow, using this kind of tactic.

Wait, I thought I was mislynching you, then

Rhinox

, then PokerFace... *checks Lynch-A-Day calendar* I didn't think I was so booked!
Anyway, no, I've had some suspicion of PokerFace throughout. To me this vote seems like a continuation of my suspicion that everything PokerFace does is sketchy for reasons I can't always concretely state immediately.

He pretty clearly believes Juls will be a mislynch,

and is trying to keep her an open option. If Rhinox is scum, I'm pretty positive it will clear Juls.

Um... I... don't quite see this. Am I not reading something between the lines?

I do think

[Vi]

has been tunneling and stretching a lot of points,

Point taken. I took the day off from Mafia for that reason.

---

New post! Joy.

Fact is 3 votes is not enough support for a lynch, thus, there was not enough support for a hohum lynch.

In that case there's not enough support for a Zilla lynch, a Rhinox lynch, a Vi lynch, or even a lynch on someone with six people voting for them.

You've flipped on your opinion of juls every other post,

Actually, could you go into this?

---
=
---

Summary:

I'm not really sure which of Zilla or Rhinox to place/keep my vote on - but I'm heavily favoring switching to Rhinox pending a review on Zilla's part of where she found the "aha!" on voting Rhinox and Rhinox showing where Zilla's opinion of Juls has gone back and forth.

I think the issues with Juls in general are reaching the point where assuming Town based on meta and Miller is not satisfying. I would like for her to come in and play, soon.

I do want charlatan's explanation for the "bus" comment, because it does appear to be a slip.

PokerFace and d_j really need some scrutiny later.

@mod: Prod ZEEnon. Or replace him, whichever.

[Vi]

In the interest of time and growing disillusionment I'm not going to respond to everything individually.

I don't like that you tried to take my confusion on how to address that question and twisted it to look like I was afraid of being implicated over it.

I did no such thing.

What did I say that wasn't a response to your question that I (quote)"shouldn't have"(end quote)?

You weren't responding to me. See the segment of 552 that I picked up at the beginning of 554 that led to a line of thinking that I found quite scummy as a whole.

Re: Rhinox on charlatan's "scummy" position on ZEEnon - I'm not following. You're saying Juls *must* die. charlatan basically says he's for ZEEnon's death but isn't convinced enough to do it today.

It was meant to be a provocative statement... but still, both you and zilla accused me of misrepping in it, but neither of you have explained how my scumhunting has been based on role/setup speculating, which was the other part of your case summary on me besides meta...

Let's talk some more about Juls' role!

You're overgeneralizing...

In the words of the Internet, NO U

you both are basically chastising me for not tunneling on on hohum, despite my vocalized suspicions of gorrad, and despite the fact that nearly every other player in the game was being suspected by someone else.

Um, no? You can tunnel or not tunnel all you like, but the reason for you abandoning the wagon was not grounded in reality. I will note that you haven't stopped saying you want a hohum wagon even as he hasn't said anything, which is a Town action IMO.

Nearly everyone had said they would judge juls through her actions, and up until now she has been given a pass stictly because she claimed miller.

See also meta.

-----

If I were scum, I wouldn't be scumhunting.

[

X

]

-----

At the rate people are all wall of text in this game, I'm going to rip my eyes out with a spatula!

I thought you were

Poker

Face?

Re: Zilla's place of origin - It seems kind of empty :v


-----
@@
-----

I'm starting to get a nasty feeling that both Zilla and Rhinox are Town. Both of them have come up with novel arguments against each other and neither one has backed down (stubbornness that I equate with being Town). If I had to lynch one, it would probably be Rhinox, but I'm more interested in looking at the reactions of others to the giant topic-eating argument.

don_johnson's cyclopic tunneling on me has left the "charming" stage and is now certifiably scummy. I really don't like his list of opinions on everyone, as they all end with "this is anti-Town; I would support a wagon" except in the cases of Rhinox(ish), PokerFace, the Masons (who are still potentially scum playing a ridiculous gambit), and charlatan (who isn't on the list at all).

I do not presently endorse a Gorrad wagon. My meta on him is what you would call "highly unflattering", and the lynch seems... too

easy

.

While calling the ho out for lurking seems attractive, doing some research I don't think this is the case. I don't think his absence is a tell in either direction.

I think enough "odd" things have happened around PokerFace that he's still high on my suspect list (not to mention everyone else's). I'm going to take another look tonight, but I think PokerFace or d_j is going to be my preferred lynch today.

It's strange. There are eight people being voted for currently, but I highly doubt all three scum are on the list and there's a decent chance even two aren't being covered.

[Vi]

so, how exactly am i tunneling as compared to what just about everyone else is doing? we all have suspects, just becuase you are mine doesn't mean i am tunneling.

Well let's look at the last ten posts before your big wrap-up "these are all the people I'd like to lynch" post. These posts span the last five days and 150 posts.

(suggests Juls is playing to a meta by being frustrated)

(asks Vi why flavor should be provided from the Masons)

(asks Vi to give role flavor; that is,

claim

)

(discusses a scummy detail of Juls's claim)

(continues discussing said scummy detail of Juls's claim)

(questions charlatan's belief that at least one Mason wouldn't investigate/flip Town)

(long argument wherein Vi is

clearly

scum for asking for flavor)

(accusing Juls of playing to a meta by being frustrated; tying this to Vi being scum no matter how you look at Vi's interactions with Juls)

(more grilling Vi)

(utter

non sequitur

question)

(grilling PokerFace for "defending" Vi)

(agreement with Xtoxm that Juls would be Town if she would stop attacking the Masons' claims)

(agreement with Xtoxm that PokerFace is Town)

(finding PokerFace's setup speculation "unsettling")

(offer to lynch a Mason)

(setup speculation and mild interest in PokerFace and Vi)

(still questioning a single point on Vi)

(flavor question, odd since you claim to have the series on DVD)

(setup speculation)

(not reading the rules post)

(setup speculation)

(one-line pressure on Vi)

(response to PokerFace about Vi)

(paragraph about Vi)

(justification for not talking about people other than Vi)

(support for another deadline extension when you just got done saying you're not reading the posts at this point)

JulsViViJulsJulsXtoxmViJulsViViViViPokerFaceXtoxmJulsXtoxmPokerFaceViViFlavorSetupFlavorSetupViViViViExtension.

Incidentally, Xtoxm, is Vi - I mean, am I scummy for asking for your flavor?

nice preemptive omgus.

Thanks. I waited until you unvoted

just so

Rhinox or someone couldn't call me on the blatant OMGUS~
Or wait, I didn't actually vote you, so it's not a by-definition OMGUS. -10 Technique points, must try again later.

let's see, i am willing to lynch 7/12, with about three at the top of my list. so come deadline, are you not going to vote for someone to secure a lynch, or would you rather no lynch? also, 7/12 is a MIGHTY BIG TUNNEL!

Talk about nobody, wagon almost everybody; that sounds like a scum M.O. to me.

whats so easy about it?

Scum usually don't try to look scummy. While I'm not thrilled about people who respond to pressure with taunts, in my experience none of these people have flipped scum yet (although it's very hard to regret wagoning them!).

I liked Dj's post and it is very much in line with my views for the most part. I wont be voting him today.

Your loss.

[Vi]

I answered without thinking about it, but I don't see why you would want flavour, given it's a mason claim, if you didn't from Juls.

I think then you would understand where I'm coming from in saying that I asked without thinking overmuch about it.

[Vi]

Failed attempt at cuteness aside, scum don't often scumhunt, they generally pretend to scumhunt, which is a different thing.

Not if you do it right. But disregarding that, who would you say has been "pretending to scumhunt" in particular so far?

This is bothering me as well. He's been V/LA, and I'm really hoping he can catch up and get some play in before the deadline, but right now I've got no reason to assume it will.

There is that...
I'm not sure how much this will do at deadline, but

@mod: Prod hohum

. I really don't want the phase change to take place without hearing SOMETHING from that corner.

[Vi]

@Juls: What about PokerFace?

[Vi]

Ooo, better question. Why not Rhinox?

[Vi]

Vi: What caused you to back down from Rhinox?

The length and extent of the three-way argument.

Minor detail, if you would rather lynch Rhinox than me, and you claim "I'm starting to think Rhinox and Zilla are town." Why is your vote still on me? I would at least understand if it was on Rhinox if you really believed he's more likely to be scum than me.

If I did so, I would likely have to change my vote again, which is an inconvenience I wanted to avoid. It should be obvious that my vote on you is currently a placeholder.

I take it by your skepticism you reject my reason for lowering my suspicion of you two?


---

I'm not thrilled with the hohum lynch tbqh. I'm not adamantly against it, but I'm not really convinced it'll hit scum.

---

post 683 is rude and childish. i will not respond.

And you would know. Still, I wish

I

could get around people attacking me by simply plugging my ears.

[Vi]

So its ok to keep a worthless placeholder vote on a player you don't want to lynch today about a day before deadline, but its not ok for me to not have a vote down > a week before deadline even though I was clear about players I did want to lynch?

For the reasons you put down for unvoting? No, it wasn't okay.

Vi, who do you want to lynch today, and why aren't you voting for them right now?

The people I wouldn't mind lynching today include:
PokerFace
Gorrad
don_johnson (OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGUS)
you
hohum
everyone else
in roughly that order. Unfortunately, nobody seems to want a lynch on the higher-ups

sans

Gorrad; and

unlike

the case a week ago, there's no longer any time to try and convince the game to look at d_j and PF more than they have. I placed Gorrad at #2 because he HAS been scummy, he will likely CONTINUE to be scummy, and while I don't claim to be able to read him well I do not object to his lynch and think he would better than hohum in that regard.

----

why do you continue to project personality traits onto me?

post 683 is rude and childish. i will not respond.

Does that answer your question?

Re: "bolded are the misrepresentations" (count is up to 11 now?) - Okay, that actually makes sense. With that said, your way of saying it was utterly confusing (hint: periods usually imply that your thought stops there).

i claimed DVR, not DVD. i have sessions 1-2, and like 15-25. i have fallen asleep through most of them.

In the words of the basketball band, so what? Who cares? Big deal.

what is scummy about putting pressure on vi?

Did you read anything I said about tunneling? That was the whole point.

not reading the wall-o-text war. not stopped reading the posts. just not the quote walls. again, what is scummy here?

The posts ARE the quote walls.

what lynch are you

convinced

will hit scum?

Ooo, twisting my words around.
The one I'm most confident in is PokerFace, but I'm not really

convinced

of anyone today.

your post was misrep and personal opinion with no base in fact.

I don't know; I think if I got anyone who cared to listen to you in and told them to compare my summary with your actual posts they would agree with me.

At this point I think I'm just patronizing you out of frustration and because quite frankly you deserve it.

-----

Considering how close we are to deadline I don't think being interested in lookinbg at reactions is the right reason here.

I'm not holding my vote on Zilla because I'm looking for reactions to others; I just didn't feel like moving it until I made a decision based on looking at non-Zilla/Rhinox players. Are you suggesting that I should have kept myself locked on those two?

I agree that ZEEnon seems to be TRYING to play sketchily, which is more frustrating than anything.

-----

Well, whatever. It's not me, it's not Juls, it's not hohum, and I'd rather lynch PokerFace over Gorrad.

Unvote: Zilla
Vote: PokerFace

(L-5)

[Vi]

Vi: What caused you to back down from Rhinox?

The length and extent of the three-way argument.

[Vi]

That's not my point, that's completely irrelavent. It's the fact that you have 2 confirmed town votes absent from the wagon.

and why is that

[Vi]

It's the fact that you have 2 confirmed town votes absent from the wagon.

and why is that

Clarification: Why must the world revolve around you?

[Vi]

That has nothing to do with anything.

Vi sounds just like Emptyger-scum: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 35#1472135

While I will note that EmpTyger plays like an extremely hardened version of how I used to play, you're being extremely self-centered (and coming from me that's saying something) in specifically telling us who we can and cannot lynch, and making it clear that you're monopolizing the votes. There is no flexibility here. You can be assumed Town all you like, but that doesn't mean you're

right

. In fact, EmpTyger touched on this in that topic--

Some unsolicited advice for your next game: the game of mafia is half about figuring out who the mafia is, half about convincing people of it. It doesn’t matter how confirmed you are; calling someone mafia isn’t the only way of discrediting someone. N2, there never was any real question about whether to kill you or Appassionata first, even though I thought he was unlikely to attack either me or xofelf.

(This generally seems to me to have been the town’s downfall. Too many innocent players were playing so badly (sometimes unintentionally, sometimes deliberately) that they lost most or all of their credibility. Us mafia could play however we wanted without much fear- even when one player did stumble onto us {SC D1, Xtoxm D3, TA D4}, they couldn’t get any traction.)

[Vi]

No, i'm not. You can't expect me to not defend someone I think is town.

Granted. However, most people who are not currently telepathically connected to you would be less P.O.d at you and/or more willing to agree with your views on who is Town and/or less willing to try to put together a wagon regardless of what you think if you said more than--

Well like I said I definately will not support a PF lynch.

PF is town.

I will not be voting Rhinox today, even if it means no lynch. Same applies to PF and Zee.

And we're not lynching PF, he's town.

Vi - Really don't see PF as scum.

PF - Town

[Vi]

I'm really not liking how Zilla is going to be the arbitrary lynch considering the people voting for her are the scummy-as-perdition absent claimed Mason, the inflexible single-minded claimed Mason, and my pick for scum.

I would join the hohum wagon at deadline to push it into the lead, but I'd rather two people joined the PokerFace wagon.

[Vi]

I agree with the above post.

@Juls: You left out the last four words on my lynch laundry list. Although "everyone else" is a standard option on my lynch preferences.

@Zilla: I don't think that worked if I'm reading the rule correctly...

[Vi]

Is there any last questions addressed to me before I replace?

A number of questions, actually. The first one that comes to mind is "What the hell".
The second one is how you can possibly expect us NOT to hate your replacement for this, or YOU for setting this up in the first place.
The third one is if you're telling the truth this time. <_<
The fourth one is "Why shouldn't we lynch you/Xtoxm, say, right now".
The fifth one is why you chose to reveal, particularly right now.

These questions become increasingly important in reverse order; so if you had to answer two, I'd rather the fifth and fourth ones.

Woo, mafiascum. Always full of unique and unexpected surprises.

[Vi]

*digs through the giant pile of WIFOM and fail*

I actually think I believe PokerFace's crumbing. A shame that it had to come single digit hours before deadline.
That means I have to decide quickly whether I believe ZEEnon... but since ZEEnon said

Also! My role can be passed down to another non-scum player whenever I die, so it's okay.

I'm not worried about getting it wrong on that front. I'm more worried about which of the three others with two votes I want lynched. Lynching with a majority on D1 basically isn't going to happen.

I think a lot of people in this game is going to leave with some amount of hatred for a lot of the others, which I really don't like on principle. Oh well, it goes to show who NOT to play with in the future.

Unofficial Vote Count

Zilla ––– Xtoxm, PokerFace

( )
hohum ––– charlatan, Zilla
Juls ––– Gorrad, don_johnson
ZEEnon --- VP Baltar, Juls
PokerFace – Vi
Gorrad –––Rhinox
Xtoxm ––– hohum

Not Voting – ZEEnon

With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch!
Day 1 deadline is in about

3.5

hours.

[Vi]

Vi: you claim you believe PF, but you're still voting for him - what gives?

Another placeholder. I was actually going to switch in that post, but then realized that I wasn't sure who to vote - not only looking at who's being wagoned, but who's wagoning them.

Give me a minute and I'll make a decision, but I can

Unvote: PokerFace

for now and fill it in then.

[Vi]

I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Can you reword this? Because Zeenon said his role could be passed to a non-scum player, you believe him? I'm not following...

If we lynch ZEEnon and he's scum, well and good.
If we lynch ZEEnon and he's Town, there's no loss of role... although the fact that he's

replacing out

means it's rather possible that the mod may cancel that ability.

Zilla is being active, and

deserves to stay in the game over hohum, even if she's scum.

umwhat

[Vi]

I'm still holding out a little longer for a Gorrad lynch - he seems to be trying to stir up trouble in his last post. He chastises Xtoxm and pokerface for the gambit

and seems to be sure ZEEnon is scum

, but then in the next paragraph says that ZEEnon is probably town.

Um... no, that's not it.

I also don't follow... town can't be wrong?

That's been Xtoxm's motto for more than this game <_<
@801: No, I'm pointing out the bad reasoning that is making you a liability. Not lynching scum seems to be kind of not playing to your Win Condition.
Who is more likely to be scum, hohum or Zilla? Not "who do you like more"; otherwise I'd be wagoning someone else altogether right now.

[Vi]

The fact of the matter is, I'm really not sure I like any of the wagons listed :v I'll tolerate two of the leading wagons, but I'm not optimistic about them hitting scum.

So

Vote: ZEEnon

(L-4)

[Vi]

@Vi: Why are you being so tolerant of my "poor play". Vi in WATR was on me like white on rice. I sense a bit of buddying here.

Because I don't think you would ask this question if you were scum.
Lest you've forgotten, I have pointed out places where your play has been bad. In addition, I'm the one who pointed out the possibility that you could be F. Valentine; d_j just picked up on it.

I'm trying to wrap myself around ZEEnon vs. hohum... unsuccessfully. Could someone summarize the case on hohum?

[Vi]

i have been pointing out their

inconsistency

all day and everyone has been writing me off.

Fixed for accuracy.

We'll also learn about the people who are defending Hohum here.. I didn't think of that!

If he flips scum, I'd be looking at these pages here to see who thinks he's not worth lynching, eh?

You are correct.

Incidentally, hohum is putting off two other games just like this one.

Considering recent events, this seems eerie. Is he trying to get ZEEnon not to play the game Xtoxm set up for him?

This would naturally mean that the two are paired. Are you willing to take this position?

and pitted himself against Xtoxm, calling that if Xtoxm flipped town, he'd be scum, and if he flipped town, Xtoxm would be scum, along with some other implications. I didn't like this because I didn't like the idea of

him flipping scum clearing Xtoxm

, since he was the one calling it.

There are a number of conclusions you can draw from hohum's statement, but this is probably the most benign one of the batch.

I'm not convinced enough of hohum-scum to go for it.

[Vi]

I don't want to let go of the Zee mislynch

For a hohum mislynch? I don't, actually.

[Vi]

Zee has alluded to a power role, and a replacement will come in over night. Today is probably the only day scum have a chance to lynch Zee.

ZEEnon has alluded to a

transferable

power role, and considering ZEEnon's play I'm not sure someone would want to replace in (plus a replacement would be unable to answer for ZEEnon's... ZEEnonicity).

[Vi]

Hey XBoxm. It seems like you're only voting for hohum because he's absent.
You've made such a big deal of not voting for people you think are innocent, but hohum WAS one of those people early on. I would ask a question about why you softened on him, but I don't expect a straight answer so whatever.

[Vi]

why do you choose to ignore vi's blatant scumminess? she is parroting and patronizing at this point.

Patronizing, definitely. Parroting? How so?

who do you think is scum?

...actually, I never thought to ask this question o.o

hohum>Zee as far as i'm concerned. I don't see anyone else being lynched as this point. Dealdine in a half hour.

As expected, not a straight answer. Oh well.

[Vi]

Vote Count #13 of Day 1

Zilla ––– Xtoxm, Vi, PokerFace
Hohum ––– charlatan, Juls, Zilla

Gorrad ––– VP Baltar, Rhinox

Juls ––– Gorrad

charlatan ––– ZEEnon

Xtoxm ––– hohum
Vi – don_johnson

I almost believed the 2xvote claim, but this is where it falls apart.

[Vi]

why do you choose to ignore vi's blatant scumminess? she is parroting and patronizing at this point.

Patronizing, definitely. Parroting? How so?

post 858. let's not argue the semantics of "parroting".

...you're not serious.

I agree with VP Baltar 886.

[Vi]

Scratch that, switch don_johnson and charlatan.
don_johnson is much more annoying.

For that alone I hope you're bluffing <_<

[Vi]

I'm going to mass prod people to remind them of deadline.

I am aware that there is a deadline

Oh man VP Baltar, you are like Albert B. Rampage #2.

I've heard...

stuff

about ABR (Rhinox has some idea). Do explain for my education

[Vi]

charlatan: I suggest you start thinking of what a Crime Boss would work like.

What.

The.

Fuck.

Flavor, Zilla.

[Vi]

If there's support for it, I'll lynch Don Johnson.

Wait... what?

Everyone talking about their "occupational hazards" are my heroes~

[Vi]

Unfortunately, I can't hop off this vote or else it will make me the default lynch.

That's the point.
From what you've told us so far, you would be much better served in death.

[Vi]

Unfortunately, I can't hop off this vote or else it will make me the default lynch.

That's the point.
From what you've told us so far, you would be much better served in death.

Stop trying to make Zee sacrifice himself.

He would be much more helpful to town alive.

*buzz* Wrong.
ZEEnon has just shown a way to scumhunt through death AND give his doublevote to someone who is guaranteed Town

and

will probably use it better than he has.
In addition to that, there's still no confirmation for anything.

ZEEnon dies today. Period.

@ Vi: But I just made this game 10 times more interesting.

'Can't argue with that.

[Vi]

People to look at: VP Baltar, Juls, Vi,

charlatan,

Zilla

...?

charlatan, vote for someone. Then request a vote count, making sure the leading wagon is highlighted.

[Vi]

Final Vote Count of Day 1

ZEEnon ––– VP Baltar, Juls, Vi, charlatan, Zilla

oic
I've already explained why I was on the wagon and pushed it, and since (if it worked as advertised) it has confirmed someone that I've had questions about for a while, I refuse to say the ZEEnon lynch was anything but a good move. tbh I think an examination of the motives for the votes at the end of the day would be nice about now.

@Rhinox: Compare the vote count above with Gorrad's list o' suspicions.

[Vi]

The vote counts are unreliable. I intentionally leave out the number that usually shows how many people are on a wagon because, as you've discovered, the number of people on a wagon does not necessarily correlate to voting power of a wagon. In this way, the top to bottom order of wagon prevalence can be unreliable.

This may or may not explain why hohum was not lynched day 1.

Vote count to come soon.

Maybe this game

is

weirder than advertised.

Either way, that gives an

excellent

lead for today. I'll allow 24 hours for people to drop bombshells before I proceed with my own theory.

[Vi]

Also, I think I have an idea where you are going Vi, but I'll let you comment first since you might have a more complete idea than me.

I don't. That's the purpose of asking other people to speak up.

I do agree that hohum needs to show up --now-- as he was not unconditionally spared from the lynch yesterday.
To get this to go faster,

@mod: Has hohum picked up his prod? If so, can you spam one or two more to him? Or maybe just flood his inbox?

Out of curiosity, are you (VP Baltar) an alt?

[Vi]

All things being equal

I reject this assumption.

[Vi]

I like Rhinox's alternative theory, actually...

Vote: hohum

(L-4)
*

^^either of these could be town or scum

By not claiming now, I think that these players would more likely be scum.

[Vi]

Hmm... That's actually a more interesting possibility than I was initially considering.

Vi, just curious, do you actually have your own thoughts on the matter that should be included in our thought process or were you just checking to see what came out?

Yes.

I'll cut to the chase. charlatan is a doublevoter, no contest... but he has been a doublevoter since D1.
The vote record yesterday makes perfect sense if you consider that one of {VP Baltar, Juls, Vi, charlatan} has a doublevote; look for yourself. I don't have a double vote. Juls has claimed a number of things, but a double vote isn't one of them. If you look at the difference between vote counts 15 and 16, VP Baltar clearly cannot have the doublevote. Process of elimination says charlatan.

Add on to that that charlatan took very careful measures not to reveal this ability. He made exactly two votes over the course of the day, for hohum and ZEEnon.

Xtoxm's overnight death then makes reasonable sense. Nobody had any idea if ZEEnon was telling the truth about his role at the time. And as Zilla said, the alleged doublevote transfer was a powerful scumhunting tool, even better than a Cop investigation. That Xtoxm, the "intended recipient" of the role, died overnight suggests that the scum were trying to cover themselves. That charlatan actually was a doulevoter in the first place was an extremely lucky coincidence, and the only way the scum could hope to avoid being outed (if ZEEnon was telling the truth, mind). Whether d_j is scum is a bit murkier, as he was in a decent position to be framed... but I'm not doubting it too very much.

charlatan needs to poke a hole in this theory soon, because as it stands he's dead in the proverbial water.

Unvote: hohum
Vote: charlatan

(L-3)

[Vi]

Now that's service! You answer me before I even ask the question!

[Vi]

But it doesn't answer the critical point, namely that you didn't just now get your doublevote. Ah well.

[Vi]

Exactly who were you trying to confirm? Zee or Charlaton? I think your reasons for lynching Zee were a pretty big pile of shit, I mean if you believed ZEEnon had that skill that would make him town you shouldn't have lynched him because you believed he would "investigate" someone. You should have lynched him if you thought he was scum.

charlatan.
Think of the scumhunting potential involved in being able to give the mod a list with gray-alignment players on top and point out the first Townie.

-----

Maybe Hohum is unlynchable.

Extremely dubious. But if that's so, we don't have any business lynching him today.

Maybe someone didn't get a vote yesterday.

Who, then? I've done my research; let's see yours.

There were things at work yesterday that we clearly didn't know -- it seems perfectly logical that there might be more of them.

That's why I gave a period for people to claim. That they haven't yet suggests a scum ability.

This would suggest that under normal circumstances I change my vote often, which I do not. I feel that I was pretty clear with why my vote was where it was throughout the day.

I don't know your meta, and pragmatically speaking, it doesn't matter. If you were playing to your meta, it was a good meta to play to.

[Vi]

I don't generally like the idea that a relatively simple theory should be discarded based on the possible existence of a more complex theory that requires twice as many assumptions.

I also didn't ask for baseless accusations (i.e. maybe it's you; maybe there's a vote that doesn't count). I asked for evidence. I provided evidence; if you would like for me to spell my case out I most certainly can.

I will note that d_j has not posted today. Granted, the Day hasn't lasted that long so far, but I think his voice would be nice to have right about now.

[Vi]

I'm afraid I'm not quite following. Are people actually saying that Charlatan had a double-vote all D1 with no one noticing, and today when he claims to have been the target he's risking whoever ACTUALLY got the role counterclaiming?

That makes no sense at all to me.

Who said anyone ACTUALLY got the role?

[Vi]

I'm afraid I'm not quite following. Are people actually saying that Charlatan had a double-vote all D1 with no one noticing, and today when he claims to have been the target he's risking whoever ACTUALLY got the role counterclaiming?

That makes no sense at all to me.

Who said anyone ACTUALLY got the role?

Um, ZEEnon? Right?

I rest my case.

-----

Vote Count #18 of Day 1

ZEEnon ––– VP Baltar, Juls, Vi, charlatan (Largest Wagon)

Hohum –––Zilla, Rhinox

Starting point.

Vote Count #19 of Day 1

ZEEnon ––– VP Baltar, Juls, Vi, charlatan
Hohum ––– Zilla, Rhinox, Xtoxm, ZEEnon

Notice the lack of a "largest wagon" indicator here. I would assume that there is a tie here. We (presumably) know hohum had five votes on him.

Vote Count #20 of Day 1

ZEEnon ––– VP Baltar, Juls, Vi, charlatan, don_johnson (Current Largest Wagon)
Hohum –––Zilla, Rhinox, Xtoxm, ZEEnon

Notice that there

is

a "largest wagon" indicator here. Thus, the ZEEnon wagon had more than (presumably) five votes on it as of now.

Final Vote Count of Day 1

ZEEnon ––– VP Baltar, Juls, Vi, charlatan, Zilla
Hohum –––Rhinox, Xtoxm, ZEEnon, don_johnson

Between the last two vote counts, d_j unvoted ZEEnon for hohum (placing hohum up to five votes) and Zilla unvoted hohum and went to ZEEnon (placing ZEEnon up to presumably five votes), in that order. But ZEEnon was the one default lynched.

Conclusions.
1) Someone on the ZEEnon wagon in #20 had a doublevote, and it's not d_j. (This leaves VP Baltar, Juls, me, and you)
2) Someone on the hohum wagon in #20 had a nullvote, and it's not ZEEnon or d_j or Xtoxm. (This leaves Zilla and Rhinox)
3. Wacky role-related vote mechanics that specifically deal in messing around with tiebreakers.

Further investigation.

Vote Count #15 of Day 1

ZEEnon --- VP Baltar, Juls, Zilla (Largest wagon)

Zilla ––– Xtoxm, PokerFace
Juls ––– Gorrad, don_johnson
Hohum ––– charlatan

Vote Count #16 of Day 1

Hohum ––– charlatan, Zilla, Xtoxm (Largest Wagon)

ZEEnon ––– VP Baltar, Juls

Zilla did not have a nullvote. From these same vote counts, VP Baltar did not have a doublevote.

I cannot verify that Rhinox's vote counts.

[Vi]

If the lack of "largest wagon" indicated a tie, then we would see one on vote count #4, which we don't:

That's because Jahudo didn't include "largest wagon" indicators until #15, before which the following quotes were made.

@Jahudo, can I get a vote count and could you highlight or bold who is going to be lynched at deadline?

Mod: As it stands, who will be lynched at dealdine?

Also, do you believe ZEEnon or not? I'm not sure where you eventually came down on that -- it seemed at the end of the day yesterday that you were happy to vote him because the power could be used to scumhunt, but today don't seem to believe that at all? I'm trying to get all my positions straight.

Until I find a better explanation, I do not.
This is based on the discrepancies in the vote count, especially toward the end of the day. I didn't notice them until then.

One other thing about that. Vote Counts 15 and 16 show that Juls could not be a doublevoter. I cannot demonstrate that I am not a doublevoter with vote analysis.

-----

but I think Jahudo was trying to tell us something here

And I paid attention. I went with the obvious "Largest Wagon" designator, not the listed order.

I think continuing to scum hunt in this manner would not be pro-town.

I wonder about that. But I already know where else to keep looking... (>")>

@mod: Hurry up with the vote count *kick*

[Vi]

I don't think I'm done yet, actually.

Unvote: charlatan

[Vi]

* I played yesterday very cautiously to keep my double vote a secret, then threw that away at the last minute.

* I somehow knew that ZEEnon was lying about his role, or would else be risking a counterclaim that would out me as scum.

Not so.

However, I'm going to consider some other ideas later today and do not want charlatan to be lynched until I get done. Hence the unvote.

[Vi]

Another thing I have been curious about is that if Zeenon was a double voter that maybe he has a permanent vote on him (kinda like people who require one less vote to lynch)

It's possible. I considered it once in one of my many half-finished setups, but decided it was kind of pointless.

I'm not sure if hohum is a good lynch at this point.

Vote: don_johnson

(L-5)
This is the avenue I'd like to explore next.

[Vi]

I don't wish to explain my vote on don_johnson at this time.

I would like to ask Zilla to provide a summary view of whether charlatan can doublevote and (if so) how long he has been able to do so.

I also don't like that VP was ignoring Vi until Charlatan called him on it.

Am I scum?
On this note, though, I will agree with you and go further. VP Baltar's reasoning so far today has been entirely centered in the doublevote theory. In fact, he seems to be following me. While this is normally what I like ( ) it's pretty obvious buddying/going with the flow. VP, do I have to have

that

talk with you again?

Same question. do you think hohum is town, why or why not?

I let hohum go yesterday conditionally. If hohum thinks he can lurk through today, he can lurk through tomorrow as well - from the sidelines after he gets lynched.
In other words, still working on a read, leaning scummy, completely unopposed to a wagon on him.

[Vi]

I don't have any evidence that means Charlatan had or currently has doublevoting powers. There are way too many other explanations for why ZEEnon was lynched instead of Hohum yesterday.

You said this line of questioning is "weak and irrelevant". Under what circumstances (if any) would it become something other than that?

You're saying you "Let Hohum go conditionally." In what way did you let him go, and what conditions?

I did not vote him because I perceived it as an absentee lynch, considering he was way behind from V/LA and I could easily rationalize him being too swamped to catch up (see Vi #s 79 and 57). That excuse no longer applies, and I expect as much from hohum as others.

[Vi]

No, father.

I'm not nearly old enough, among other things.
You missed what I meant by "the talk", but I'll wait until it's safe to elaborate~

I feel much more comfortable voting somebody based on voting record than I do on feelings of activity or how I think they should be playing.

The part after "than I do on" can be concisely summarized as

scumhunting

~
I think it has been well-established by now that the voting record, while a good resource, is not conclusive - and this is intentionally so, quoth the mod through le char de latan.

I do think it is somewhat strange that you abandoned your thoughts on the voting pattern so quickly. Why was that? You don't have to explain your reasoning on don, but I would like to hear why you think the Rhinox, Charlatan (and you) voting thing should be basically abandoned.

"Abandoned" is too strong a word for it.

Also, your name should seriously change to VT, just for this one game.

[Vi]

d_j, is hohum likely scum?

At this point, I seem to be the only one interested in actively pursuing the avenue regarding the vote counts, so I'm willing to let it drop so we don't continue going in circles. If I find something more to contribute that might change people's perspectives on it, I will add it, but I suppose it can go to the back burner until new information can be added.

...you say without providing an alternative direction.

? you'll have to explain, I'm a bit slow....

Cowboy Bebop Session 7. You can choose between the dub or the sub; they're both on YouTube (as of this five minutes).

[Vi]

Would you describe what you're doing as "following the crowd"?

[Vi]

Would you describe what you're doing as "following the crowd"?

directed at whom?

you

[Vi]

then no.

'Coulda fooled me.
Here I thought you were poor dj, trapped between two choices you didn't like because we were at deadline. Now that we're not at deadline, you're

still

placing yourself between two choices, neither of which you had much interest in D1.

[Vi]

EBWOP: Three choices, actually.

[Vi]

what are you talking about? there are more than two(three) choices. i am focusing on the ones i think will be worth it at this time. you're just being a jerk now.

Whatever happened to your suspicions from D1?

[Vi]

Quickly skimming to see if there's anything urgent...

Alright guys its game breaking strategy time!! There is likly a scum double voter and a charlaton double voter.

I disagree. As this is one of your premises, I do not endorse whatever plan followed.

More later.

[Vi]

The Real

Folk Blues

Catch-Up Post:

So, this sentence seems to indicate that your opinion on him really didn't change at all...just that you'd be ok with his lynch at deadline. Are your feelings on Gorrad vs. Hohum the same today? Is your uneasiness with the Gorrad lynch based entirely on one mislynch?

Recall at the time that I did not think hohum would be a mislynch. Now? I'm not so sure. Gorrad, who seems to actively enjoy being scummy, was a better policy lynch if that's what we were going to do. As it is, I think I'm on to something more interesting than Gorrad. I may come back to him later, but right now I like my d_j pressure and am disappointed that nobody else sees the obvious switch he made or the terrible excuse for participation he's putting forth today.

@Rhinox, you expressed worry yesterday about needing to lynch Juls before lylo. With yesterday's mislynch, did that concern increase?

This is a good question.

@Vi: You are being very cryptic and as we all know I am not too bright. When shall we expect you to lay "it" all out there for public consumption?

I'll wait a while longer. I won't wait until the deadline gets close, though.

@Juls: I became employed since the start of the game, and I've had a lot less time to dig for scum.

I've been asking questions but they haven't been responded to.

Funny, I don't

see

any questions when reading you in isolation...

Third, I'm saying I'm voting for pressure because I'm not quite ready to lynch Hohum, but I don't mind bringing him closer to lynch. If he doesn't answer anything, I won't be removing my vote. It at the very least encourages more activity, which even if he is scum, I'd like to see more of.

Watch this.

@mod: Please prod hohum

I really don't buy Zilla 1098.

------
Frothing hate from PokerFace corner! *kids cheer*

When did you ever say you found Charlaton scummy on day 1? I don't think you ever did. Find me a link to where you did this or I call bullshit!

First, read the quote you posted more carefully.

Exactly who were you trying to

confirm

? Zee or Charlaton?

charlatan.

Think of the scumhunting potential involved in being able to give the mod a list with

gray-alignment players

on top and point out the first Townie.

And now to answer your

question

demand.

I don't think I can remember anything charlatan has done offhand

I've overlooked charlatan up until now, but I like what

[bad things]

people are saying about him.
(...)
I really don't like the lack of taking stances here. Nobody said you had to have a solid opinion; just one for the record. "I don't know" is okay; "who knows" isn't.
(...)
And... that's all I have. After rereading charlatan in isolation, I have no objections with an
Unvote: PokerFace
Vote: charlatan (L-5)

And from there there's a bunch of conversation with/about charlatan to where I left with doubts but didn't have anything to press.

[about a case on charlatan]

Intuition plays a part in it, and his attention has still been narrowly focused. He said he's going to post when he can, so I'll wait and see what he has to say about nothohum. But it is one of the weakest of my suspicions at the moment.

Did you ever once believe ZEEnon could double vote and or have his role passed down? Why?

It's pretty evident in the vote analysis that he did have a doublevote. I'm inclined to believe the role-passing part as well for flavor reasons and because I'm a sucker for believing claims.

We won't be doing to entire thing since there are somethings known wrong with it. Is your problem with that premise individually or that it was one of my premises.

It's that premise, although the plan relies on it. Truth be told I didn't have time to read the entire plan the first time. Now that I have, it makes sense provided that premise is accurate... but I don't think it is.

Also why did your suspcions of hohum change there and closer to the end of the day since you did also say after that list.

I said that I would vote hohum at deadline over Zilla. Where's the contradiction?

I still view your vote on ZEEnon at the end of the day as suspect because it relies on him telling the truth. Only way his skill could scumhunt and catch scum, was if you believed it. And if you thought he was telling the truth, you should have lynched Hohum since you did consider voting him some during day 1.

Its like you lynched him because you thought he was town.

Precisely!
Option: Don't Lynch ZEEnon and assume he's Town. Continue to wonder through the game if he IS Town (no hindsight allowed) given his erratic play.
Option: Lynch ZEEnon and learn he's scum. Yay, scumlynch!
Option: Lynch ZEEnon and learn he's Town (and telling the truth). We've lost a Townie, sure, but we've also got what amounts to a free investigation on at least one player of his choice (and they weren't bad choices, surprisingly).
Option: Lynch ZEEnon and learn he's Town (and lying). Yay, scumlynch!

I need to look at VP Baltar vs. Zilla now...

[Vi]

Recall at the time that I did not think hohum would be a mislynch.

Now? I'm not so sure. Gorrad, who seems to actively enjoy being scummy, was a better policy lynch if that's what we were going to do.

Woah woah woah, slow the scum train down.

You felt at the time that a hohum lynch would hit scum, but you thought a Gorrad "policy lynch" (as you catagorized it) was a better choice?

Whoops. Too many negatives.
I thought hohum was going to be a mislynch.

[Vi]

So, to clarify, you think a hohum lynch now might hit scum and would probably be a better choice than Gorrad?

Correcto.

One of my outstanding problems with Zilla is her stance on ZEEnon passing his role on and/or weird vote mechanics, which has bordered on Velma "There's no such thing as ghosts... OR worthwhile vote analysis!". I'm being deliberately vague on the subject, and my stance is more concrete than hers

VP Baltar, who (else) is scum?

don_johnson, are you scum? Is hohum scum? Is anyone else scum? Are you sure you're not scum?

Zilla 1120 is kind of thought-provoking, but I don't think I can go farther than she did.

And I'm caught up, I believe...
Gorrad needs to post soon now that his V/LA is over. We also need more player variety ITT.

[Vi]

1. This is the first time you brought this up. It's considered an "outstanding problem"?

2. How have I been vague? I've explicitly said I don't believe Charlatan.

3. I'm not alone in thinking it's fruitless to examine the votecount for scumhunting, and I gave an unrefuted reason why, that there are too many alternative and possible theories that make it unproductive.

1. It's not the first time I've brought this up. See 1060 and your response in 1061. When I followed up in 1062...

You said this line of questioning is "weak and irrelevant". Under what circumstances (if any) would it become something other than that?

...you misinterpreted the question and gave an answer I wasn't interested in--

I think the case on charlatan was strongest when it was about why Xtoxm was killed. I can see The angle that he didn't want Xtoxm fake-counter-claiming or something, and perhaps DJ is on his side as well, or maybe he's just being framed.

See also 3.

2.

I still haven't seen enough information from Charlatan to make the role-passing-on believable.

This is as close as you've gotten to

explicitly

saying it. But for someone you think is lying about his role, you're certainly doing very little about it except serving up confusion and passing the suspicion onto hohum.

3. It has been refuted, by don_johnson of all people. I have very conveniently reduced the possibilities to about three or four (can't remember offhand). If there were other other alternative theories, someone probably would have thought it up by now (and I would consider D1 more "secure" as potential vote thieves haven't had a chance to act). Pick the most likely one, or break the theory by

pointing out

another (plausible) possibility.

This soft suspicion of charlatan swept into pressure on hohum is starting to bother me.

And for the town in general:
Why are you not voting for Gorrad?

I think my vote is better served elsewhere right now.

[Vi]

I have managed to get behind on this game again. I did however watch Session 7 but still don't know what Vi is alluding to.

I keep wanting to put down VT Baltar instead of VP. That's all.

Surely

there are more important things to comment on than that. Or in your own words,

Plus, I find her to be becoming increasingly lazy in her scumhunting and that is how Vi figured me out in WATR.

Vi, it'd be stellar if you'd stop beating around the bush pretty soon.

Oh, I will.

Rhinox 1143 is incredibly disappointing. I'll stall for one more post before I start touching nerves.

A town player has a double vote and doesn't know it

Which seems unusual if ZEEnon was

told

about his doublevote.

scum has a vote-misdirection power,

Interesting. Another idea to remember. But I've never seen this before, plus this leads to a logical nightmare that is basically impossible to figure out from Town's PoV without resorting to even wilder conspiracy theories than we've covered so far.

ZEEnon/Hohum have one extra/one less vote placed on them all the time

In the case of one extra, that should have been claimed at the time. In the event of one less, now would be a good time to say something.
(note: scum that requires an extra vote to lynch is gamebreaking in a Mini)

I want activity from hohum more than I want to lynch Charlatan right now. Logic pretty well dictates that if Charlatan is lying, he's scum, but I don't see any reason to rush him to the gallows, and hohum is still MIA.

You want

activity

from hohum, but a

lynch

on charlatan...? Then is charlatan your #1?

[Vi]

where did my day 1 suspicions go? they are here. are we near deadline? if you want to lynch vi or juls i am all for it, but to not give people the benefit of the doubt is just plain ignorant. there are only a few reasons players survive night one: they are scum, scum believe them to be viable mislynches, or scum is afraid to target them. it is reasonable to assume that if juls is town, she is here because she would be the most viable mislynch.

if vi is town, scum may have been afraid of a doc protect or some such intervention.

truth? who knows. reasonable explanations? could be.

Wait a second, how did I get to be Townie enough to warrant protection? Especially in your eyes.
I find this change of stance to be painfully artificial. I'm half tempted to suggest that the lack of votes on you is a sign that I'm on the right track.

As to Rhinox.

I think continuing to scum hunt in this manner would not be pro-town.

This is an interesting phrase. I think you're hiding something. Care to elaborate?

I don't like disappointing Vi... what can I do to make it up to you?

You can take over payments for my car...~

[Vi]

i don't think you are townie at all. i think you are scum who should be lynched. should i start making up some fliers?

Wouldn't that be the point of scumhunting?

there is no change in stance here, just speculation on why you are still alive if you are not scum. i.e. if one of those players kow-towing to you yesterday were doc, they very well may have protected you.

The reason I wasn't night-killed (assuming Vi-Town) actually seems kind of obvious if you look at who DID get killed and what went on at the end of the previous day.

Seriously, why aren't we lynching d_j?

[Vi]

Oh, one other thing about don_johnson's flip on me.

If don_johnson thinks I'm scum, then I would have a very good reason for living through the night. So why give me the "benefit of the doubt" insofar as saying that scum didn't kill me because they were afraid I was being doc protected by someone who liked me? (Come to think of it, who would do that in this game? ) And considering, oh, all of yesterday, why didn't deej go to the "scum" conclusion first?

I wonder if the other scummersons also jumped on the vote analysis to hit charlatan or Rhinox...

[Vi]

(Supposedly) filling out job applications atm, but I have time to say this.

@mod: Please replace hohum. His last post onsite was last Thursday.

More later.

[Vi]

Why so long?

[Vi]

I wouldn't say he's my number 1 because I don't feel he is scummy, but I can't logically believe him, and logically, if he's lying, he's more than likely scum.

Why can't you logically believe him?

-----

when i consciously try to avoid tunneling on my day 1 suspicions so as to try and play this game open minded, vi accuses me of not scumhunting. have you ever read towndj? he's got a horrible track record. he tunnels incessantly and has NEVER lynched scum successfully.

Oh, poor you. Do you think parking your vote on a lurker or following someone else's vote analysis is going to make things better?

contradictory stances can be indicative of someone who is "uninformed". funny how you don't see that possibility.

Uninformed about who to back at any given time, right?

-----

What makes you think I'm hiding something? And, even if I were, why should I tell you?

I appreciate the work you did looking at the vote counts, but

I think Jahudo was trying to tell us something here

⁽¹⁾

Same goes to you don... if anyone needs to explain anything, its you for flipping your vote at the last minute yesterday.⁽²⁾

I think continuing to scum hunt in this manner would not be pro-town.⁽³⁾

As I said earlier,⁽⁴⁾ (...)

(1) Objecting to the vote analysis as a whole in a way that I had already answered via exclusively looking at the Largest Existing Wagon designators.
(2) Deflection to someone else... via vote analysis.
(3) An interesting choice of words. Not "I don't believe this is going anywhere". "This would not be pro-Town". That more than anything suggests that you're hiding something.
(4) Obvious reversion to your previous plan.

If you can do weird things with the vote count, now would be a good time to say so. I think it would be valuable to have as much of an idea as possible what is manipulating the vote count.

@the trade: Oh, I couldn't do that. Please, just take my payment~

Vi, why is a lack of votes on dj a sign that you're on the right track? I've been lobbying for a gorrad lynch for a while, and there have been a lack of votes there.. is that proof gorrad is scum?

That's why I said I was tempted to say it. I know it's not good grounding for an accusation

[Vi]

Vi, you've gone soft. You're asking questions, but they're not hard-hitting. Stay on target.

I don't see a need to convince scum they are scum.
Do you have a vested interest in me pursuing d_j?

[Vi]

AND has more chance of "catching" townies that aren't playing with tons of wherewithal.

And is d_j one of these?

All in all, that's like making a chess move, so you can gauge their response. Why even give them the move?

Mostly for humor. I trust you can tell from the questions that I don't expect to be wowed by any answer given. Again, convincing scum they are scum.

Either I don't get it, or I don't see your point.

The entirety of the vote analysis was based on the mod saying THIS IS THE LARGEST WAGON. Rhinox was pointing out that an analysis based on the ordering of the vote count would be inaccurate, but that's not what I was using in the first place.

The rest of it can be summed up with: Are you supposed to be some kind of Mafia coach or grammar instructor? This almost constitutes a defense of Rhinox by dismissing the case as "badly worded". For instance.

If he didn't answer the question satisfactorially, bring it up again along with this accusation. Unless, were you intending to drop the accusation he deflected from? (which, consequently, I'd have to go research to find out, and I don't think it's worthwhile to do so at the moment).

This is not an attempt to scumhunt. This is a lecture on how to grill someone. You even admit to having no idea what the accusation is about.

[Vi]

Zilla, you're saying all this like I'm just now accusing deej of being Mafia on these points. Not so.
Do you think that I am scum trying to distance from d_j or Rhinox? Do you think I am scum half-heartedly pushing a case on either of them?

If you're convinced they are scum,

you ought to be able to confirm it

what

I still don't see what the point is, but now I get it. What is the point you are trying to make here?

Rhinox's objection to the vote analysis was invalid.

Though, I am interested in if you're actually dropping your question he deflected from.

The validity of the vote analysis? I'm obviously still interested in it.

[Vi]

VI

Daykill: PokerFace

Investigating this claim; brb.

Until then,

Unvote: don_johnson

.

[Vi]

First thoughts.

If everything so far is true, there seem way too many "confirmable" roles ITT. Srsly, four Masons and the ability to create lists of Townies for the mod to check? I'm not so worried about PokerFace because an actual Mason has died and nobody has counterclaimed him, but there's a chance that what's going on may be too good to be true.

deej, why did you flip your vote in the last five minutes of D1?

I have no problem with you submitting charlatan's name overnight. If charlatan wasn't the Crime Boss last night, you would have been and there would be no need for your advisor role. Assuming everything you're claiming is accurate, of course.

It is still possible for one of the following to be true:
*The Crime Boss title did not pass down (charlatan is scum) (can be confirmed either way later)
*d_j is everything he claimed to be, and still scum.

-----

i cannot be a double voter.

Are you claiming part of your role, or are you saying you are not a double voter right now?

Before we lynch don, can we test Rhinox's ability to double vote?

What do you expect to gain from this?

[Vi]

What do you expect to gain from this?

Whether or not Rhinox is the double voter, which would at least move us one step closer to proving or disproving your theory on the vote count. However, testing this would be dependent upon your willingness to lynch don, which I sense you are suddenly hesitant about.

"suddenly hesitant"?
What are you implying?

I can also tell you with certainty that Rhinox is not a doublevoter, and I'm surprised you would make such a mistake.

You're scum, aren't you?~

[Vi]

d_j and/or myself are completely full of it.

You heard it here first! *lynch lynch lynch*

-----

Is this your big secret? Please elaborate.

Nope.
I've never said anything about Rhinox being a doublevoter, and the only reason coming to mind for someone who has been as invested in the vote theory as you have been making such a mistake is that it fundamentally doesn't matter to you insofar as scumhunting goes.

Was there an implication in there? You were gung ho about lynching Dj, then he claimed, and you backed off and seem against his lynch based on his claim.

Is there a problem?

However, you also say that DJ having such a role would make too many confirmable town, which I would agree with.

I don't know what kind of balancing factors may be out there for this. While there is room for doubt, it's quite possible that deej is telling the truth. You don't seem to have that lane available.

I asked if you were scum earlier, but I don't think you have to answer the question now.

Vote: VP Baltar

(L-5)

-----

Also, what are your thoughts on the point that Juls made and DJ's response to it?

I'm waiting on him to answer my question about the vote flip, which would complete his response.

Incidentally @d_j: Any relevant flavor that would support your claim?

[Vi]

Regarding Rhinox and the doublevote: You... DID! NOT! DO! THE! RESEARCH!

Conclusions.
1) Someone on the ZEEnon wagon in #20 had a doublevote, and it's not d_j. (This leaves VP Baltar, Juls, me, and you)

2) Someone on the hohum wagon in #20 had a nullvote, and it's not ZEEnon or d_j or Xtoxm. (This leaves Zilla and Rhinox)

3. Wacky role-related vote mechanics that specifically deal in messing around with tiebreakers.

Further investigation.

Zilla did not have a nullvote. From these same vote counts, VP Baltar did not have a doublevote.

I cannot verify that Rhinox's vote counts.

If my point is not

abundantly

clear, please let me know.

Yeah, a bit. Considering how fervernt you were about the case, it seems a bit inconsistent to go lax and not pursue much scrutiny of the claim...at least to see if he remains consistent in his message.

I have no idea where you're getting this accusation of not scrutinizing the claim from.

If you're so apt to just believe claims so easily, why were you on ZEEnon's case yesterday so much when he claimed?

I believe I've said this multiple times already as well.

Its like you lynched him because you thought he was town.

Precisely!
Option: Don't Lynch ZEEnon and assume he's Town. Continue to wonder through the game if he IS Town (no hindsight allowed) given his erratic play.
Option: Lynch ZEEnon and learn he's scum. Yay, scumlynch!
Option: Lynch ZEEnon and learn he's Town (and telling the truth). We've lost a Townie, sure, but we've also got what amounts to a free investigation on at least one player of his choice (and they weren't bad choices, surprisingly).
Option: Lynch ZEEnon and learn he's Town (and lying). Yay, scumlynch!

You've been floating along on top of my words for too long. You need to die. Today.

-----

i doubt this highly. if zeenon lied in this manner then i will lobby for them to banned from this site. players, at the very least, should be bound to play to their win conditions. willfully giving scum a safehaven seems to me to be against the town win condition.

You said you did not want to assume charlatan was anything but the doublevoter he claimed to be from the beginning of the Day (#79). You have had literally no confirmation that charlatan is a doublevoter (you did not receive a message saying you were Roleblocked, just that your ability would not take effect). Is this confidence in charlatan based solely on ZEEnon's words?

[Vi]

1) Someone on the ZEEnon wagon in #20 had a doublevote, and it's not d_j.

(This leaves VP Baltar, Juls, me, and you)

2) Someone on the hohum wagon in #20 had a nullvote, and it's not ZEEnon or d_j or Xtoxm.

(This leaves Zilla and Rhinox)

Discuss.

Final Vote Count of Day 1

ZEEnon ––– VP Baltar, Juls, Vi, charlatan, Zilla
Hohum –––Rhinox, Xtoxm, ZEEnon, don_johnson

If Rhinox had a doublevote, hohum should have been lynched 6-5.

Continue discussion.

[Vi]

I know I have to catch up more than this, but...

1) Someone on the ZEEnon wagon in #20 had a doublevote, and it's not d_j.

(This leaves VP Baltar, Juls, me, and you)

2) Someone on the hohum wagon in #20 had a nullvote, and it's not ZEEnon or d_j or Xtoxm.

(This leaves Zilla and Rhinox)

Discuss.

Final Vote Count of Day 1

ZEEnon ––– VP Baltar, Juls, Vi, charlatan, Zilla
Hohum –––Rhinox, Xtoxm, ZEEnon, don_johnson

If Rhinox had a doublevote, hohum should have been lynched 6-5.

Continue discussion.

According to the final vote count, if Zilla had a null vote, wouldn't Hohum have been lynched there, 5-4?

Further investigation.

Zilla did not have a nullvote.

From these same vote counts, VP Baltar did not have a doublevote.

I cannot verify that Rhinox's vote counts.

Resume discussion.

Ok, you're right, but doesn't that then mean that (barring "wacky" vote mechanics) that Rhinox manipulated the vote count?

That's one of the three possibilities open.

[Vi]

candidates for null vote: dj

Vote Count #20 of Day 1

ZEEnon ––– VP Baltar, Juls, Vi, charlatan, don_johnson

(4)

(Current Largest Wagon)
Hohum –––Zilla, Rhinox, Xtoxm, ZEEnon

(5)

Discuss.

[Vi]

Which is why I've been trying to graciously derail the vote count analysis... we just don't know what mechanics are in play.

I'll agree on the first part, you have been graciously derailing the vote count analysis. But I think you DO have some idea what mechanics are in play. And you're in no hurry to confirm or deny anything.

you've been calling him VT (vanilla townie?).

Cowboy Bebop humor, etc.

[Vi]

Something else I've noticed. Check out these wagons.

(209) PokerFace - Juls, VP Baltar, Vi, Zilla
(523) hohum - charlatan, Vi, Zilla, Rhinox, Xtoxm
(623) Rhinox - Vi, Juls, Zilla
(732) hohum - charlatan, Juls, Zilla
(734) PokerFace - VP Baltar, Vi, Juls
(785) ZEEnon - VP Baltar, Juls, Zilla
(793) hohum - charlatan, Zilla, Xtoxm
(1003) hohum - Rhinox, Vi, Zilla (VP Baltar correctly predicted that I was gambiting here)
(1032) charlatan - hohum, Vi, VP Baltar
(1070) hohum - Rhinox, Zilla, Juls, don_johnson
(1184) don_johnson - Vi, charlatan, Juls, Zilla

Total appearances:
Zilla - 8
Juls - 7
Vi - 7 (well, 6)
charlatan - 4
VP Baltar - 4
Rhinox - 3

Total original votes:
charlatan - 3
Rhinox - 2
Vi - 2
VP Baltar - 2
Juls - 1
Zilla - 0

Does anyone see an obvious voting bloc here? Look at whose names keep coming back - Juls and Zilla.
At least one of these two is scum, guaranteed.

[Vi]

@Vi: I like your voting analysis up to this point except I really don't see how post 1230 is relevant. Especially since you are pretty much statistically equal. I can

guarantee

you I am not scum.

Guarantee

, you say?

Also, if we were statistically equal, you wouldn't be voting after me on all but the first wagon we're both on. Likewise with you and Zilla.

Juls' opposition to d_j's claim appears to be that he gave hohum the benefit of the doubt. Which reminds me.

@mod: You don't have to give hohum a grace period; just replace him!

[Vi]

I've done the vote analysis for you. The first PokerFace wagon and the ZEEnon wagon at the end of the day are the only times you "beat me" to a wagon.

I'm still waiting for an explanation about the guarantee.

[Vi]

I'm waiting on Vi's rationalization for claiming one of Juls or I are scum based on who was on a wagon first, and how many people we've voted.

The three of us are the only people driving wagons in this game, and you tend to be late on the wagon each time--
*First on PF (before ZEEnon)
*First on f-light (no followers)
*4th on PF (after Juls, VP, Vi) - leading wagon
*First on VP (no followers)
*3rd on hohum (after char, Vi) - leading wagon
*3rd on Rhinox (after Vi, Juls) - leading wagon
*2nd on hohum again (after Juls)
*3rd on ZEEnon (after VP, Juls) - leading wagon, flipped back to hohum to make it the leading wagon briefly
*3rd on hohum D2 (after Rhinox, Vi) - leading wagon
*4th on d_j D2 (after Vi, charlatan, Juls) - leading wagon

Compare to Juls--

*2nd on Rhinox (after PF) - leading wagon
*First on PF (no followers)
*2nd on ZEEnon (after VP)
*First on PF (no followers)
*2nd on Xtoxm (after hohum)
*2nd on PF (after Vi)
*First on Rhinox (no followers)
*3rd on herself (after Xtoxm, Gorrad) - leading wagon
*2nd on Rhinox (after Vi)
*First on hohum (beginning of hohum's last wagon)
*3rd on PokerFace (after VP, Vi)
*2nd on Xtoxm (after hohum)
*2nd on ZEEnon (after VP)
*First on charlatan D2 (followed by hohum and Vi)
*First on d_j D2 (no followers)
*Third on hohum D2 (after Rhinox, Zilla) - leading wagon
*Third on d_j D2 (after Vi, charlatan) - leading wagon

And me.

*2nd on Rhinox (after PF) - leading wagon
*First on VP (no followers)
*2nd on Gorrad (after Rhinox)
*3rd on PF (after Juls, VP) - leading wagon
*2nd on charlatan (after Xtoxm)
*2nd on hohum (after charlatan)
*First on PokerFace (followed by Juls)
*First on Rhinox (followed by Juls and Zilla)
*2nd on PokerFace (after VP)
*3rd on ZEEnon (after VP, Juls)
*2nd on hohum D2 (after Rhinox) - leading wagon
*3rd on charlatan D2 (after Juls, hohum) - leading wagon
*First on d_j D2 (most recent wagon)
*First on VP (most recent wagon)

I will look at context momentarily.

[Vi]

Zilla, what is your read on Rhinox?

You are reading too much into this one. I am saying that I know what I am and I guarantee I am not scum. Simple as that.

So do I!

And just clarify for me your stance from 1237...is leading wagons scummy or being late on them.

"leading wagon" implies that vote is either on the leading wagon or made that wagon the leading one. They're basically the same thing.

[Vi]

No I mean "leading" as being on early.

Are you saying early or later is more scummy.

In this case, later.

[Vi]

if not today, we should certainly mass claim tomorrow. this game is no ordinary mini. i think we could have broken it with a day 1 mc.

Bingo. Although maybe not D1.
I have no intention of letting this day end without breaking this setup in half.

d_j has four people voting him, BTW. Rhinox looks like he's losing control of the situation.

Also hai Korlash. Are you scum? It would be really helpful if I knew.

[Vi]

It would seem to indicate that, if the role is tied to someone's vote like ZEEnon's was, then either DJ or Rhinox have a null vote, or one of Juls, Vi, Charlatan, Zilla or myself have a double vote.

Aaaand, looking at these other vote counts it looks like we can't clear anyone further than that.

Well, that certainly mucks things up.

Oh, I think we're doing a good job of clearing it up regardless. ^.^

Assuming charlatan is telling the truth about being a doublevoter today we can rule out Zilla, Vi, and Juls as doublevoters from the d_j wagon (which would otherwise have gone to a lynch). ...exactly why the four of us were on the same wagon AGAIN, I'm not quite sure. Anyway, that puts us more or less right back where we were before~

Didn't mention it in my last post, I think mass claim would be more useful for game breaking purposes tomorrow.

I don't want a massclaim

now

, but I don't think we should necessarily wait for tomorrow.

[Vi]

ITT, Rhinox is curiously absent.

[Vi]

Regarding a full claim from me... no. no one has brought out a case against me and shown how I have been scummy in any way (other than maybe skirting around the question of whether or not I can manipulate the vote, if you find that scummy - I was just following the school of though of revealing anything about your role when you're not about to be lynched is not pro-town).

Downplaying it like so doesn't help you at all.
Even assuming you're telling the truth about your abilities or lack thereof, the greater issue has become your stalling and furtiveness over the issue. 'Not sure what to claim or how to claim it? We were only asking if you could manipulate the vote count. It's a yes/no question. 'Not very hard.

I expect better from town Vi, however.

You have some off-key expectations from me, then. You should know I'm all about the weirdness.

First off, a proper setup will be immune to being broken by a mass claim, and secondly, even if it were, thats not exactly an ethical way to win...

1) You don't know if this is a "proper setup", and there's reason to suspect it is breakable. (no offense to Jahudo for the terminology)
2) Three words: Play to win.

Is that really all you have as far as catching up goes?

[Vi]

I'm not downplaying anything. There are no straightforward answers when there aren't straightforward questions. Only recently was I directly asked if I could manipulate the vote count, and I directly answered "no".

Okay.
You knew fully well that you were being suspected of having a nullvote. For a

long

time, too (although in VP Baltar's and a few other peoples' cases, maybe not that long). You

knew

that was what people were looking for in your claim. I know you're smart enough to say "I don't want to claim, BUT my vote counts AFAIK". Get real.

Oh, and this.

[@Rhinox:]

If you can do weird things with the vote count, now would be a good time to say so.

It took you a few pages to catch up to this, and you missed it then. Yet you still acknowledged the vote count analysis in your catch-up post, and since the subjects almost entirely overlap I'm not sure how you missed it.

1: I'm under the impression that mods get their setups reviewed sometimes multiple times sometimes months before the game starts, not to mention that I think Jahudo is pretty smart - so what makes you think you can discover a fatal flaw in the setup that everyone else missed?

The preponderance of unique roles in this game, many of which appear to be confirmable.
You can do your own legwork on who reviewed this setup and how many times. Games can and have been broken, and the more complex it is, the more likely it is that there's a loophole somewhere.

2: OK... mass claim then. You start.

Again with the lack of reading.

I don't want a massclaim

now

, but I don't think we should necessarily wait for tomorrow.

Plus with all this talk about breaking the setup today I would expect you would get the idea that I'm going to claim today. Believe it.

I know you're used to walls o texts from me, but I'm changing my ways . Anyways, you say I post walls of text as scum or town, so then is not posting walls of text a scum tell?

You're talking about walls of text; I'm talking about content. See the disconnect?

Your opinions on Zilla and VP Baltar, please.

[Vi]

ITT,

[Vi]

Zilla: Is your motivation in building a case on me primarily that nobody else has done so?
Was I scummy beforehand (in comparison to others)? How about as of this point in your read?

[Vi]

I need to look up how "zeenon went along with it" because I know they weren't mason pairs so I can't figure out how that happened.

Short version: Xtoxm claimed Mason with ZEEnon to get ZEE off the table for a while. Neither PokerFace nor ZEEnon protested.

I didn't initially read PokerFace 1118. Now that I have, let's bring up the quote in question.

If xtoxm claimed mason and lied, and ZEEnon happily went along with the lie, then they're both fucking stupid,

but

I still don't buy the claim.

Welcome to Conjunction Junction. This one's function is to show a change of subject. Moreover, stupidity is usually the term used for unnecessary scumminess from Town. Last, I'm trying to pin down what hohum's opinion was at the time. He never let go of Xtoxm-scum, and--

If I flip town, you know that Xtoxm is likely to flip scum, ZEEnon by way of association and Charlatan don't look so good anymore and you have a much narrower pool of suspect to chose from.

Perhaps not surprisingly, hohum hasn't flipped and all three of the others flipped Town. But that first quote is saying that the

revised Masonry

(Xtoxm+PokerFace) isn't being bought in spite of the evidence otherwise.

So with that in mind, let's look at Korlash's version.

why can't it be an act of stupidity of scum? I can see the realm of thought where one scum fakeclaiming a role and his partner agreeing with it a stupid action as it links their fates together. If Xtoxm-scum went down for his fakeclaim then Zeenon would follow for his lie, quid pro quo a very stupid move on both their parts.

If both Xtoxm and ZEEnon were scum, counterclaiming each other would have been Day 1 bus-suicide. Going along with each other seems like a very good idea, actually. And every time I've played with Masons/obvTownNeighbors, they've been left alive for as long as possible (partly because they have a nasty tendency to be useless).
The last sentence of my previous paragraph destroys the next paragraph (mostly empty legalese anyway) from Korlash. Or in other words, my wall can beat up your wall.

That you say that PokerFace is

not

confirmed Town somehow is unreasonable. (fyi, remaining Mason, no counterclaim, heavily crumbed)

-----

Now to take this to my actual point,

VP's 1097 was not in defense of Hohum.

He was questioning your attacks, there-by scumhunting you. You think that just because you were questioning Hohum you were immune from questions yourself? His 1099 even showed he felt you asked him to. Yet you then turn it around tossing out the "you're only defending him becuase it's easy."

Ignoring the bolded - because VP WAS defending hohum there and elsewhere - this seems accurate. 'Should reread Zilla later.

And why would you become masons with a role that once dead passes on to another person? Actually no I suppose that makes sense, a "consigliere" is an adviser so it makes sense to work with each new boss.

waaaaaaaitasecond
This would appear to be an

additional

layer of confirmation of who gets to be the Crime Boss. I can somewhat understand this being necessary considering the mod's secrecy regarding doublevotes, but still.
The question then comes back to

why did the alleged request for Masonry fail?

There are two options I can think of. One is that there was no request in the first place. The other may or may not come out at massclaim. However, I don't think that scum would plan such a specific fakeclaim for so long AND suggest a massclaim at the end after seeing the connection.

Quick question though, have Vi or Zilla claimed? Or has any other claim in any way suggested they were town? Figure it's faster this way then a post by post you know.

No.

The way I see it I have two other people to which I actually find scummy and so I'd rather use my time with them then DJ. And yes, I know that as the main town wagon he is a big deal and a bag of chips but I'm eccentric so whatever...

1) Main wagon?
2) Main "Town" wagon?

-----

To everyone else, I still think don is the way to go. People are banking on it being a confirmable role but it says nothing of his alignment.

This is true, but see the AND after where I doubt he's scum.

4) I appreciate your effort to catch up. I know this game isn't the easiest of reads.

Yes, but is Korlash scum?

[Vi]

The lack of an answer

clearly

indicated that I couldn't do anything weird with the vote count.

Not really.

-----

Only two of the others have "flipped" town...

Sort of the same thing nonetheless.

And how is it bus/suicide? I thought it would be bus/town hero.

That would leave a "real" Mason out there that would have to be fabricated.

Yeah and you overlooking the part I haven't read any of the crumbs, didn't know it was mod confirmed masonry, and the fact that no counterclaim means shit with masons is kind of unreasonable as well.

Soooo let me get this on the same page. You spent a lot of time criticizing PokerFace and coming to the conclusion he's not confirmed Town without any idea of WHY people think he's confirmed Town. Plus I don't see where a lack of a counterclaim would mean nothing in this scenario.

Bold statement, I have nothing better to do so why not back it up. If my "wall" as you say it can be beaten I'd like to see it done so I'm not under any false impressions.

You love wall battles, don't you~

And the comment at the end was a recovery of viewpoint and stance. he speculated on one possibility in which both players were lying, thus he speculated on one situation in which the claims would be false. he ended up with "They would both be stupid" which is a sign to say otherwise as we don't usually assume people would be stupid, thus if one situation leads us to the conclusion they would have to be stupid to do it, it suggests they did not do it. Thusly, he had to reasert his beliefs that he did not believe the claim regardless of the fact they would both have to be stupid for it to be fake.

But that first quote is saying that the

revised Masonry

(Xtoxm+PokerFace) isn't being bought in spite of the evidence otherwise.

hohum wasn't talking about the ZEEnon+Xtoxm masonry at the time of the quote (though he was calling ZEEtoxm stupid). You seem to be suggesting otherwise.

Not in 1097 unless I missed something.

VP Baltar knocking down Zilla's case is an implicit defense of hohum.

so the way I see it when building a set up is the "crime boss" role will already have been 'confirmed' in order to pass it on so 'technically' this doesn't add any new confirmation because the role is already confirmed.

It confirms the Crime Boss in a way nothing else will. The point being that there are obvious questions to be raised about d_j's ability considering it didn't work on the Crime Boss.

Main wagon means the most discussed wagon at the time and the most likely to be lynched, right now at this point that is DJ unless I'm wrong. As it is the biggest main event right now all town are expected to comment on it and so I wanted to make sure people knew why I wasn't planning on it atm.

Technically Rhinox is the leading wagon at the moment. You haven't said a word about him.

So tell me, what is it I have done that makes you feel I am scum?

TL;DR
*Korlash has tried to frame someone who's all-but-confirmed innocent. (PokerFace)
*Korlash has offered fallacious defenses of hohum and to a lesser extent VP Baltar.
*See Korlash's title in general.
*Korlash is actively waffling about don_johnson's role without doing anything to try and clear it up, instead insisting that the waters are as muddy as possible.
*hohum was already stalling when he flaked off the site.

-----

I agree with this. I think you might be over-estimating your ability to break this setup just because you would want to do something like that. As charlatan rightly pointed out, I think one more night for an investigative role (if there is one) to find a confirmable scum would be better before mass claim.

That being said, you may be seeing something the rest of us aren't, so if you have a good reason for mass claim now, I would like to hear it.

You don't think I've yet laid all my cards on the table, have you?

@Vi, I don't remember if I asked you this before, but do you think it is likely from hohum's quote in question that he had inside knowledge of the masons?

Given the conjunction I mentioned earlier, I think it's certainly a possibility that cannot be ignored.

More to come in another post soon after this one.

[Vi]

Ok, then please explain to me how it is scummy. How would scum know that they were lying about being masons? I just don't understand what people's point is here. I don't see it as scummy.

Wait, there's a disconnect.
There was no way for him to know what was up when ZEEtoxm happened (which is what most people are interested in). But as scum, he would know if XtoxmFace was true.

heh, I didn't believe so for a second. You've been massaging that ace up your sleeve for quite some time, so my interest remains piqued.

I think it's time to blow this scene. Get everything and the stuff together.

I am what's called a Town Interrogator; flavorwise a corrupt ISSP agent. You've been talking about a Cop being in the setup since Page 2, and I'm here to deliver. I targeted Gorrad N1, and got an Innocent result.

So with that, I'm off the table and so is Gorrad. Of the 10 players alive today, that leaves 7 decent targets (take me, PokerFace, and Gorrad out). I for one am convinced in charlatan's role and to a lesser extent Juls' as well based on their play, pushing it down to 5 or 6. If you want to believe d_j, we're down to 4. I anticipate 3 scum in this game. Our chances are looking pretty good at this point.

I would like for the

Encryptor

to claim within 48 hours. Deadline is approaching. I think we can break the game, and we don't need a complete massclaim today to do it.

Some other things to note:

1) Of the two Masons, Xtoxm was chosen to die over PokerFace, which is... odd. One school of thought behind this is that it was due to wanting to frame charlatan and/or don_johnson, and I certainly believe that was an incidental part of it. However, take a look at the people who were voted by PokerFace and Xtoxm D1:
PF - Rhinox, Zilla
Xtoxm - Gorrad, hohum, Juls, Zilla, hohum, Vi, more hohum
From a defensive point of view, Xtoxm is a much better kill assuming ho-scum.
2) With the revelation that Gorrad is Town and the good faith that charlatan is what he says he is, VP Baltar hasn't voted for anyone who hasn't later been found to be Town. Throughout the whole game. Seriously.
3) I was stalling today largely to get a determination of hohum's alignment, which would be a significant reflection of who the other scum would most likely be. I'm not sure how well I did in that regard, unfortunately. In any event, the remaining players are {d_j, Juls, Zilla, Rhinox}. If all goes well I can pick one of these out overnight; otherwise I'm sure you can figure it out.

Unvote: VP Baltar
Vote: Korlash

(L-4)
Let's settle hohum first, as in addition to being probscum this flip would say the most about the most.

Incidentally, d_j, what is your role (not flavor) title?
Juls, what is the flavor behind your Millerhood?

[Vi]

I approve of your flavor, then.

[Vi]

Vi: Where did your Rhinox vote go?

What Rhinox vote?

[Vi]

I thought after Don John's claim, you voted Rhinox?

It certainly seemed like he was your top suspect, but now he seemed to fall off the map for you.

After d_j's claim, I voted VP Baltar.
Rhinox is one of the few suspects left, and his relative absence recently seems curious - but he's not the only person I suspect, because he hasn't been in the middle of every wagon.

[Vi]

mistaken for someone else.

Not how I read it, but okay.

I'll be damned if that doesn't sound a whole lot like one Faye Valentine. Add a "corrupt" (note that flavor in the form of "corrupt xxx" was used in the post immediately before hers, p.s.) in front of bounty hunter and don't mention the name, and suddenly you've got a workable fakeclaim.

Considering my own flavor name I fully expected "corrupt bounty hunter" to be a feasible Miller claim. This is why through early D1 I said that I could fully envision a Miller in this setup.
Juls' flavor also relates to my own regarding investigating Guilty.

vi: i am town aligned if that's what you are asking, but consigliere is my role name.

Clarification: You should have a role title and a role name. I want the one you haven't given.

however, if we are talking strictly flavor, i believe jet black is an ex issp officer, no?

Correct.

Vi, what can you tell us about the Encryptor? Do you know what this role is, or what their alignment would be?

I can tell you that at least two other people should know what an Encryptor is (no, not from within the game). The rest will come after the 48-hour period is up.

I feel fairly comfortable that save Xtoxm/Pokerface every town claim has had the word "Town" as part of the role. I think a townie would know this.

don_johnson. Twice.
Juls, is that the only reason you're voting Korlash?

------

VI

Daykill: Korlash

(I hate McRoll. So much.)

3) Since when did Custom titles effect role distribution? Much less to a replacement? How does my custom title effect Hohum being scum? Stop reaching for points, you've already fabricated two, no need to get greedy.

Clarification: This was shorthand for "Krap Logick in general". Or maybe longhand. Either way.

1) Lie and misrepresentation, I did no such thing.

...uh... yes, you did.

2) I am hohum so no duh I would defend him, and you're strawmanning my attacks against Zilla by misrepresenting them as defenses of VP.

*

fallacious

defenses of hohum
*Not a straw man. Zilla could use her own pressure. However, they ARE defenses on VP Baltar's part.

4) I've done my best to not say anything on DJ every chance i got

And a fine job you're doing of that. See below.

5) Yeah well you can't prove he was stalling because he wasn't posting and so the idea that he wasn't even reading the game is just as likely and is in no way relevant to his role. This is your actually only good point and it's moot unless you want to go through the process of backing it up.

Read his last posts ITT.

The only thing you have on Hohum is the fact he left the game and it took you lt a long ass time to force his replacement. If that is the best you have managed to come up with for prob-scum in 50+ pages... you suck... no offense but I mean... Come on, the best case you have is "lurking" after 50 pages? Even you have to admit that is lame ass playing.

You neglect the "lightning rod" offense - "oh I was acting scummy to see who would jump onto my wagon". You also neglect the lack of buying the Pokertoxm Masonry, which is dubious at best.

The rush to slam the claimed Cop is noted.

I do want to say I find his claiming it like he did a bit weird. I don't normally see cops come out and pretty much claim on their own. Apparently he feels like he can break the set-up and apparently has some knowledge about another role I have not been aware of so... that's questionable... But whatever, moving on...

blah blah waffle waffle next subject

Either you feel she is today's lynch, or you feel she isn't in the running.

That doesn't sound right.

I haven't seen a single good reason to even vote me or Hohum yet

He wasn't confirmed town to me. I had no idea why he was considered confirmed town and so I never considered him confirmed, and I hardly find one post a "lot of time."

How much of this thread did you read, anyway?

Implicit =/= real thing. Every time you attack someone you implicitly call them scum, which means by the end of the game you have implicitly called everyone scum, which is impossible and thus you put yourself in an odd position in which everything you have ever said is moot.

I forget what the term for this is.

Reductio ad absurdum?

Either way, this makes no pragmatic sense for anyone interested in continuing this logic (so, does that mean we SHOULDN'T question everyone? Does that mean that deflection cannot happen?)

-----

Sources on Korlash vs. d_j.

so we have 4 masons total in this game? You and your partner once you get it and the pair we already have? Is it just me or is something wrong with that?

And why would you become masons with a role that once dead passes on to another person? Actually no I suppose that makes sense, a "consigliere" is an adviser so it makes sense to work with each new boss.

If you'd read the topic you'd know it wasn't just you. This places you in a weird gray area of believing the claim or not believing it.

So... you act like you know DJ is scum in this post... weird...

I like when people try to set up scum pairs with people not even proven scum yet...

it's so... telling... Remind me why you are confirmed town again?

Notice that Korlash is doing exactly this.

Anyways I'm full on fence on him. One minute I am telling myself I think he is scum the next I see reason he could be town. I'd be fine in both lynching him and allowing him the night to do his thing. I could honestly right now make a case for him being both town and scum and probably have a nice little argument with myself, as such I'm not planning on talking to much about him as I'm conficted. This allows me the chance to hear you guys out and see if it can effect me one way or the other, and it gives me the time to hopefully reread even more which might put things into perspective as well.

The way I see it I have two other people to which I actually find scummy and so I'd rather use my time with them then DJ. And yes, I know that as the main town wagon he is a big deal and a bag of chips but I'm eccentric so whatever...

In many words: Waffle.

This only looks unbelievable because the crimeboss in in the open, if roles were kept hidden how likely is it DJ would hit the crimeboss EVERY single time? 1 in V where V is the remaining players?

And of course there's nothing saying DJ isn;t a scum masonizer in which case the extra confirmation on the Crimeboss's role is matched by the "confirmation" a scum would get...

ALSO, the only way for a 'new' crimeboss to be made is for the old one to die, so the way I see it when building a set up is the "crime boss" role will already have been 'confirmed' in order to pass it on so 'technically' this doesn't add any new confirmation because the role is already confirmed. However I know the ability is what we are talking about so... I know technicalities don't mean I thing. i just wanted to mention it because I like trifectas.

And I am a little confused, connection to what? That his target failed? I don't think if DJ is scum that him pushing a massclaim would link to his claim now. What he claimed now might not be the same as he would have during a massclaim because he would have had more time to think it through and might not have gone first.

Many words in favor of d_j's role, but nothing for his alignment.

2) interesting... I do remember something being said about DJ and him having something with his vote, like a secret one or something. Is that possibility still on the table? If he has a secret vote and it was on zee after he switched then Zee would not only have reached it first but would have also had an additional vote...

It's definitely off the table, and has been for a long time.

-----

I wonder how many people who are against massclaim are scum.
Also, these walls of text seem so much more irritating now.

[Vi]

@Rhino the 10th: Encryptor is not mentioned in my Role PM.

[Vi]

(@Rhinox) Because I believe there is an Encryptor in the game. Give me some trust on this.

Also, do you like your vote where it is?

[Vi]

Quick post to say: Read Jahudo's post and actually click the link.

[Vi]

I was about to say something wise about the lack of activity here.

Since the Encryptor isn't coming forth, then we move to Plan B--

Whistleblower: Protect me. DO NOT claim.

And that's all the massclaim I think we need for today.

How the hell have I not noticed Rhinox... It's very mind blowing...

Indeed.

@VP Baltar: No, no, and no.

[Vi]

@Juls: No, I'm not always a Cop. That one game I can't mention was the first game.
No, I don't think hohum had knowledge from the start of the game about Masons, and don't know how that interpretation came about.
No, I didn't copy Juls' claim - in fact, I expected something similar for a Miller claim (already said this).

@d_j: L-1 claims are fine. No massclaim is necessary today, I think.

@Korlash: The possibility is there that neither role is in the game, in which case potential falseclaims are being weeded out. There's still an info advantage to come out of it.
The point that the marathon game didn't have a Crime Boss is one of the most retarded logics said ITT; the marathon game had five roles/players and all five have been mentioned already.
In any event, what would you want for me to do about it?

@PokerFace: I'm a Cop with an innocent on Gorrad. d_j claims to be the Crime Boss's aide (ctrl-f consigliere). Popular tajos at this point include Korlash (hohum) and Rhinox.

[Vi]

In any event, what would you want for me to do about it?

Now applies to VP Baltar.

Saying I would hammer Rhinox was intended to be pressure to get him to come in here and claim...but apparently people are quick to negate that.

I don't follow.

The doublevote circus isn't really that necessary. The most important one is charlatan's doublevote. VP Baltar can vote per normal.

[Vi]

ITT, Zilla hides in the background?

@mod: Please prod Zilla

This plus the vote record suggests scum.

[Vi]

I'm here, watching, and happy about my vote.

What exactly are we waiting for to lynch Rhinox? Vi's apparently against VP hammering. I don't get it.

I'm not sure what to do anymore since Vi's running the show, and we should have lynched Rhinox like three days ago.

1) So you're lurking? 'Glad there's no contest.
2) I have no idea what you're talking about.
3) I'm not running the show - in fact, I'm trying not to. Unfortunately, people seem to like being absent and running down the clock when I'm not actively hating society.

If I were running the show, everyone's eyes would glow red as they posted

Unvote: Korlash

(or whoever is applicable)

Vote: Zilla (L-4)

(or whatever is applicable)
in uncanny unison, one by one.

(Don't get any ideas, K.)

@Rhinox: How suspicious of Zilla were you before that last post?

[Vi]

Vi: you're going with a lurkervote in the heat of all this? What happened to your suspicions on Rhinox?

Is it just me, or has Vi been playing bipolar since Korlash replaced in?

Also, Vi, what was the meaning of denying VP's post about hammering Rhinox?

1) Yes.
2) I still have them, but lurking through what you did on top of your previous activity (trying to pin something on me as an exercise, IIRC) is pretty unacceptable.
3) Ask Rhinox about me and bipolar play. But really, way to try to discredit me (notice Zilla weren't asking --me-- that question).
4) I was cut by VP Baltar while responding to a different post of his. I really didn't/don't care overmuch if he threatens to hammer.

[Vi]

@Korlash: Considering Interrogator is a role I fully expect to be in this setup given Juls the Romani (once I realized both roles were in the setup I started thinking about the gambit from earlier), it's pretty likely that claiming it would be suicide. Likewise with the other two roles. Moreover, Interrogator is virtually guaranteed to be Town-aligned because, well, Alignment Cop.
In any event, I did not directly breadcrumb my role. However, I did explain how it influenced a few of my reactions from early D1. Look it up yourself; reading the topic would do you good.

That game didn't have a crime boss or a miller and our game doesn't have a PR one (from what I can tell)

(Questions) If you have any question, complaint, or comment, post in bold but remember I am only a data dog. Woof.

[WIFOM] Would I test a new role in a Marathon Game to see if it worked in a mini? I'd tell you the answer but my role has a post restriction. [/WIFOM]


[small]Did he just say he had a role? Lynch him![/small]

I'm trying to be tolerant of other views for a change, but frankly I question your intelligence.

Rhinox. Flavor behind your Doctorhood. Nao.

I doubt I have sanity issues. The idea of Gorrad being a GF has crossed my mind; however, I'm still stung from US Election 08 when I genuinely thought he was trying to look as scummy as possible (hence why we got him to hammer a claimed SuperSaint). He was Town, of course.

Also, while I don't feel poorly about it I should mention the doublevote on charlatan's part hasn't been confirmed.

[Vi]

Actually, I'm highly critical of Rhinox's claim now that I see it, and I want to see if other town member have this issue.

There's a lot to be critical of. I think asking for flavor will break it.

[Vi]

ITT, Rhinox is handed a cue card from Zilla-scum.

Unvote: Zilla
Vote: Rhinox

(L-1)

Vi never mentioned that she knew there was a whistleblower in this game.

Furthermore, you do know what a whistleblower is, right?

[Vi]

He has given flavor.

Yes, but is it GOOD flavor? *insert food-related conversation with VP Baltar here*

@Zilla:

Actually, I'm highly critical of Rhinox's claim now that I see it, and I want to see if other

town

member have this issue.

First, I need to fix a little mistake in my claim. It was

Town Associate, aka Doctor. I hadn't read my role PM since the beginning of the game and

I put the 'Town' in the wrong place.

Is there a reason 1392 looks like you lapsed into Engrish?

[Vi]

I guess I'll go as far as to say I'm an Associate and his roleclaim is bogus.

And what other town member would you expect to have this issue?

[Vi]

The next person to vote Rhinox is scum.

[Vi]

@Face of the Poker: Yes, the second one is Rhinox.
Also, the Vanilla Townie Role PM is on Page 1. It doesn't look like any of the claims we've had so far, incidentally...~

@Juls: I don't believe the scum have fakeclaims in this game. The fact that I took at least one trueclaim away from the scum should make tomorrow all kinds of fun

[Vi]

*completely unhelpful post goes here*

[Vi]

Another thing...I was very scared to claim Romani because in a previous game I had with Vi and Rhinox I was scum and claimed "gypsy". The first thing I noticed in the definition of a Romani was that a Romani was a gypsy.

I'm of vague Romani descent, so claiming one is

always

safe for me

Some of my own notes.
*For the love of all that's holy, Korlash and Gorrad. Learn to look/play pro-Town. PLEASE.
*I like how I backed off the Rhinox/Zilla busfest D1 by suddenly thinking they were both Town. Zilla asking "Uh... why?" was priceless in retrospect.
*This was the first game where I used a spreadsheet for vote analysis. That I managed to pick out VP Baltar and Zilla from it seems to suggest that there needs to be less discussion and more voting people in games (not that I don't say that already) and less second-guessing myself from my own department.

In other words, I am always right; listen to me

*Considering I wasn't quite sure what to make of the wording of Jahudo's default lynch rule, and that I never actually noticed until it was pointed out that the

(Largest Current Wagon)

was based on voting people and not voting power, I was actually surprised Rhinox flipped Voteless in the end. I second-guess myself waaaaay too often.
*VP Baltar was pretty much dead in LyLo because of the Crime Boss ability. Why the idea of a doublevoting scum was STILL in the air at the time is beyond me. (If VP Baltar somehow pulled out the win in this game, I know me and charlatan would have been upset...)
*About not having an RVS: Speaking as the Cop, I was feeling pretty pressured D1 after Juls claimed (meaning the whole time). I felt so sure I was giving something away somewhere. So for a while I regretted the decision. I changed my mind when Rhinox flipped scum, since he got the first two votes.
*Scum counterclaiming scum is a first for me. I really didn't expect it in a Mini.
*I'm glad Zilla liked my play in this game, but since dying I've picked up a job. I've had to alter what I do to fit into a much narrower timeframe than before, hence my sig (speaking to myself as well as others).
*

AMIGO!

*Also, thanks for introducing me to the source material, Jahudo. I probably wouldn't have ever seen it otherwise.

[Vi]

It just crossed my mind that Gorrad may in fact have a double voting ability, however. It sort of makes sense from a balance perspective since we've seen no powerroles on the scum team at all so far. I wouldn't doubt that GF Gorrad had some way of gaining the double vote through his kill on Charlatan.

I would have been happy for you, sure.
But after the positive Watcher result and me calling you out, your survival would have been partially chalked up to Town ignoring the dead people. It's a common mistake, but kind of frustrating to watch from the sidelines.

[Vi]

I'm glad you enjoyed the setup. Thank you for the nomination

And happy scumday Vi and Rhinox (and ramus, query, and pesco)! I guess my day is tomorrow.

I think we've all come pretty far since then~