Mini 783: Cowboy Bebop Mafia - Game Over, Space Cowboy

[don_johnson]

vote for her(him... it.)

i'm sure they would like that.

[Vi]

where did my day 1 suspicions go? they are here. are we near deadline? if you want to lynch vi or juls i am all for it, but to not give people the benefit of the doubt is just plain ignorant. there are only a few reasons players survive night one: they are scum, scum believe them to be viable mislynches, or scum is afraid to target them. it is reasonable to assume that if juls is town, she is here because she would be the most viable mislynch.

if vi is town, scum may have been afraid of a doc protect or some such intervention.

truth? who knows. reasonable explanations? could be.

Wait a second, how did I get to be Townie enough to warrant protection? Especially in your eyes.
I find this change of stance to be painfully artificial. I'm half tempted to suggest that the lack of votes on you is a sign that I'm on the right track.

As to Rhinox.

I think continuing to scum hunt in this manner would not be pro-town.

This is an interesting phrase. I think you're hiding something. Care to elaborate?

I don't like disappointing Vi... what can I do to make it up to you?

You can take over payments for my car...~

[don_johnson]

Wait a second, how did I get to be Townie enough to warrant protection? Especially in your eyes.
I find this change of stance to be painfully artificial. I'm half tempted to suggest that the lack of votes on you is a sign that I'm on the right track.

no change in stance. you are misreading or misunderstanding. if you didn't notice, at least two players i can think of referred to your "experience" yesterday. if you are town, then scum

knows

you are. your wagon yesterday never picked up steam(much like mine today which you are now trying to paint as a scumtell btw). you would not fall into the category of "viable mislynch" in my book. there is no change in stance here, just speculation on why you are still alive if you are not scum. i.e. if one of those players kow-towing to you yesterday were doc, they very well may have protected you. i don't think you are townie at all. i think you are scum who should be lynched. should i start making up some fliers?

[Vi]

i don't think you are townie at all. i think you are scum who should be lynched. should i start making up some fliers?

Wouldn't that be the point of scumhunting?

there is no change in stance here, just speculation on why you are still alive if you are not scum. i.e. if one of those players kow-towing to you yesterday were doc, they very well may have protected you.

The reason I wasn't night-killed (assuming Vi-Town) actually seems kind of obvious if you look at who DID get killed and what went on at the end of the previous day.

Seriously, why aren't we lynching d_j?

[Zilla]

juls accused me then of protecting zeenon. i am obviously not scumbuddies with zeenon. if i wasn't protecting zeenon, what the hell was i doing? protecting hohum? if you think i am scum, then you should be thinking hohum is my partner, no?

No. Not since you brought it up.

Been too blind on Don John, I think, I'm going to look him over again. I don't like this post.

stream of consciousness is what it is, man. i can't hold your hand through all of this. the events spiraling towards yesterdays lynch led me to realize late that zeenon was most likely telling the truth. it seemed like an awful lot of contribution and strategizing last minute from someone who could have just faded away.

That's the point. You didn't just fade away but pulled a last minute switch. Answer me this: what were you trying to accomplish? I don't think you ever told us WHY you switched your vote, more you've denied why you didn't.

[qoute="don_johnson"]where did my day 1 suspicions go? they are here. are we near deadline? if you want to lynch vi or juls i am all for it, but to not give people the benefit of the doubt is just plain ignorant. there are only a few reasons players survive night one: they are scum, scum believe them to be viable mislynches, or scum is afraid to target them. it is reasonable to assume that if juls is town, she is here because she would be the most viable mislynch. if vi is town,

scum may have been afraid of a doc protect or some such intervention.

truth? who knows. reasonable explanations? could be.[/quote]

Wait wait, you're saying that Vi is obvtown, but you want to lynch her? The way I see it, if you thought she was scummy, you wouldn't suggest that scum would be afraid of a doc-protect.

point being: its time to move on. i am not going to push a wagon.

Read: I don't want to be held accountable.

pf: i stated yesterday that i didn't see the case on you. at this point you are confirmed town, so yours is the only opinion i can truly say is protown.

What? No, what? You only agree with someone because they are confirmed town? No. One, that means you're agreeing with the safest person. Two, being confirmed doesn't mean being 100% right. If he led us to a mislynch, that wouldn't be pro-town. I can't believe you think because he's confirmed that he has the best opinion. Yes, you can say it's the only opinion you trust, but to say that his opinion is automatically pro-town is folly. Moreover, it's scummy.

lynching charlatan without a counterclaim is ridonkulous. i have seen zeenon replace out of games before and though i hate meta arguments, i have known zee to be useless, a liar, and a flake. vindictive? no. purposefully dishonest and/or evil? no. the fact that he flipped town makes me believe what he said.

What about his lying-by-omission about being masoned to Xtoxm? Seriously, how can you say he couldn't be lying because he was revealed to be town?

I'm off to play other games, then I'll be back to read Don John.

[Zilla]

where did my day 1 suspicions go? they are here. are we near deadline? if you want to lynch vi or juls i am all for it, but to not give people the benefit of the doubt is just plain ignorant. there are only a few reasons players survive night one: they are scum, scum believe them to be viable mislynches, or scum is afraid to target them. it is reasonable to assume that if juls is town, she is here because she would be the most viable mislynch.

if vi is town, scum may have been afraid of a doc protect or some such intervention.

truth? who knows. reasonable explanations? could be.

Wait a second, how did I get to be Townie enough to warrant protection? Especially in your eyes.
I find this change of stance to be painfully artificial. I'm half tempted to suggest that the lack of votes on you is a sign that I'm on the right track

Whoops, that's what I get for not reading the current page. Glad Vi noticed it too.

[Zilla]

I don't like the conflict I'm having on Charlatan. Cognitive dissonance. I wouldn't say he's my number 1 because I don't feel he is scummy, but I can't logically believe him, and logically, if he's lying, he's more than likely scum. I haven't had good experience with strictly logical votes.

[Zilla]

Oy, anyone mind if I go way the hell back and nitpick at Don John?

So you are saying if a cop received multiple guilties in a row, you would be inclined to completely trust their sanity without question?

Seems funny for someone who is so doubtful of Juls' claim

.

bolded is the giant misrepresentation of my viewpoint on the juls claim.

Juls has given no reason as yet to believe or disbelieve what she says. I find the claim a null tell.

OH REALLY? In that same post as the last quote, you also said:

I see vi has moved on, I haven’t found anything particularly scummy about rhinox at this point and I am stunned that everyone seems to be “okay” with letting juls claim miller and sit quietly as we all discuss it.

Juls: please share your thoughts and expectations. Do you see any way that your claim/role can benefit town?

Seems awfully doubtful to me, while also putting in that "I don't believe or disbelieve" clause for just that purpose.

This one is similar to the current slip thing regarding Vi:

you seem to be working from the standpoint that you believe juls. i can accept this, but you claim that your belief is based on two points. a) meta(of which you point to one game. b) her lack of experience causing you to believe she would not try this type of scum gambit. you have admitted that the meta is weak. tell me this: if you only have one game to draw this meta from, why are you so quick to now call her "inexperienced"? it just seems to me that you are trying to find any way you can to believe her claim. perhaps its because you know it to be true?

Now he is accusing ShadowGirl of believing Juls because she "knows it's true" despite his actions suggesting he doesn't believe Juls. I don't like this, either way. It's contradictory.

Oh, and then further on:

So, you're voting Shadowgirl because she must be scum that knows Juls is town, and her stated reasons for trusting Juls are incorrect, right?

you could not be more wrong. juls actual alignment has little to do with the situation. i am voting shadow for her conflicting reasoning as to why she believes juls' claim.

Doesn't that presuppose that Juls is town also?

it would, but that's not what i have been saying.

Yes, it IS what you have been saying. Let me bring that up again:

it just seems to me that you are trying to find any way you can to believe her claim. perhaps its because you know it to be true?

Crikey, why aren't we lynching Don? the rest of that post is him calling on his little built-in contradictions skewed his way, when all of his actions speak other wise. Take a look for yourself.

Oh boy, reading in isolation is fun. Just about every time Don John calls "misrep!" i'ts because h'es using one of his contradictory stances. I almost don't want to go on reading this stuff, because it's giving me a headache.

Again, why AREN'T we voting don_john?

I still REALLY want to hear from hohum though. Yet again, Im' not moving until I get answers to hohum on my case (which he should have seen by now, if not, he should find it in my isolation).

[charlatan]

I don't like the conflict I'm having on Charlatan. Cognitive dissonance. I wouldn't say he's my number 1 because I don't feel he is scummy, but I can't logically believe him, and logically, if he's lying, he's more than likely scum. I haven't had good experience with strictly logical votes.

The reason it's causing you a headache is that the fact that you can't believe me based on logical reasoning does not logically mean I'm lying. The absence of proof isn't proof of a lie.

[Vi]

Oh, one other thing about don_johnson's flip on me.

If don_johnson thinks I'm scum, then I would have a very good reason for living through the night. So why give me the "benefit of the doubt" insofar as saying that scum didn't kill me because they were afraid I was being doc protected by someone who liked me? (Come to think of it, who would do that in this game? ) And considering, oh, all of yesterday, why didn't deej go to the "scum" conclusion first?

I wonder if the other scummersons also jumped on the vote analysis to hit charlatan or Rhinox...

[Gorrad]

Psh, I was suspecting D_J before it was cool.

[don_johnson]

its not cool. never was. zilla is twisting my posts. vi is ignoring my reasons behind what i said.

i did explain why i switched votes at the end of the day yesterday. it seemed to me that zeenon was town, that everyone was believing he was town and still wanting to lynch him. this makes no sense to me, scumhunting tool or not. zee was town. should no have been willfully lynched. juls was even lynching zee

just to see if he was telling the truth

.

i like the duet here by vi and zilla.

when i consciously try to avoid tunneling on my day 1 suspicions so as to try and play this game open minded, vi accuses me of not scumhunting. have you ever read towndj? he's got a horrible track record. he tunnels incessantly and has NEVER lynched scum successfully.

juls/vi/zilla is looking awfully scummy right now. juls was pushing all day yesterday about my "hostility" level, vi seems to want contradictory behavior from me and also can't seem to understand the difference between speculation and belief. zilla seems to have come out of nowhere with a boat load of misrep.

Just about every time Don John calls "misrep!" i'ts because h'es using one of his contradictory stances. I almost don't want to go on reading this stuff, because it's giving me a headache.

contradictory stances can be indicative of someone who is "uninformed". funny how you don't see that possibility.

[VP Baltar]

Here is the case I made against you yesterday, Gorrad.

The game apparently exploded again yesterday, I will try to catch up and post some thoughts this afternoon (work permiting).

[Rhinox]

As to Rhinox.

I think continuing to scum hunt in this manner would not be pro-town.

This is an interesting phrase. I think you're hiding something. Care to elaborate?

What makes you think I'm hiding something? And, even if I were, why should I tell you?

I don't like disappointing Vi... what can I do to make it up to you?

You can take over payments for my car...~

OK! We'll trade! I'll take yours, you take mine! I'll even throw in rent and student loans as a bonus

your wagon yesterday never picked up steam(much like mine today which you are now trying to paint as a scumtell btw).

This is actually a good point, but not in the context dj is pushing it. Vi, why is a lack of votes on dj a sign that you're on the right track? I've been lobbying for a gorrad lynch for a while, and there have been a lack of votes there.. is that proof gorrad is scum?

Seriously, why aren't we lynching d_j?

Because Hohum is still MIA, and gorrad and juls aren't contributing enough today to make me feel comfortable about either of them... although, he is in my group of 3: {hohum, d_j, Gorrad}... maybe you are onto something.

Been too blind on Don John, I think, I'm going to look him over again. I don't like this post.

Really? I call BS, because yesterday you said you would support a DJ lynch, and said a vig should target him. I find it highly suspicious that you would just forget about him today, seein' as he seemed like one of your top suspects yesterday...

Crikey, why aren't we lynching Don? the rest of that post is him calling on his little built-in contradictions skewed his way, when all of his actions speak other wise. Take a look for yourself.

Oh boy, reading in isolation is fun. Just about every time Don John calls "misrep!" i'ts because h'es using one of his contradictory stances. I almost don't want to go on reading this stuff, because it's giving me a headache.

Again, why AREN'T we voting don_john?

I still REALLY want to hear from hohum though. Yet again, Im' not moving until I get answers to hohum on my case (which he should have seen by now, if not, he should find it in my isolation).

I don't like this... If you feel so strongly about don, voting him should take precedence of waiting to hear from lurker/inactive Hohum. I know you also find hohum likely scum, but I haven't heard this level of resolve out of you regarding the prospect of a hohum lynch...

Again, the big problem today seems to be too many people I would like to see lynched: Hohum, Gorrad, Juls top 3... zilla is 4th, but pushing higher on the list. I'm still not sold either way on DJ or Vi. Char and Baltar both seem town, and PF is all but confirmed.

[Vi]

(Supposedly) filling out job applications atm, but I have time to say this.

@mod: Please replace hohum. His last post onsite was last Thursday.

More later.

[don_johnson]

and so it goes...

unvote

[PokerFace]

Still on Limited Access here. I also will have NO ACCESS June 4-7 to the internet while on vacation. If I don't manage to catch up on somethings before all that, then I'll just catch up on it when I'm back

Atm I'm kicking around the idea of a hohum, vi, vp scum pairing in my head and it doesn't sound that bad. I'll try to give more on this and respond to whatever when its possible.

[Jahudo]

I'm giving hohum 72 hours to pick up his PM and post. I'll let you know what happens.

[Vi]

Why so long?

[Gorrad]

Here is the case I made against you yesterday, Gorrad.

The game apparently exploded again yesterday, I will try to catch up and post some thoughts this afternoon (work permiting).

I saw and still see no questions in there, so I'm assuming you want me to address your points.

The first I've addressed repeatedly. It simply slipped my mind.

The second IS my meta, and just because you don't like my active lurking doesn't mean I don't do so early in games.

The third: Yes, I was skimming the thread. How is that a scumtell?

The fourth is the same as the second.

All in all, an extremely bad case, and one that I mostly brought upon myself. I forgot a claim once, I skipped over another, and I've actively lurked early in the game like my meta shows. If that makes me scum over Juls, who tried to draw a protown kill and not a scumkill when night immune, something's very wrong.

[Zilla]

DJ: You're saying you're "uninformed" when you literally say one thing and do another? This totally is not an answer to my accusations on you. I pointed out where you deliberately lied by falling back on "fence-sitting" statements that you made when you were totally not on the fence at all, as the evidence shows. I absolutely hate that you claimed to be on the fence as a defense whenever someone tried to nail you for being on a position that YOU ACTUALLY WERE ON.

That's total BS.

Also, nice OMGUS that I'm suddenly in your pool of scum because I turned up the heat on you.

Rhinox:

I don't like this... If you feel so strongly about don, voting him should take precedence of waiting to hear from lurker/inactive Hohum. I know you also find hohum likely scum, but I haven't heard this level of resolve out of you regarding the prospect of a hohum lynch...

First, contrast with his earlier statement here:

Seriously, why aren't we lynching d_j?

Because Hohum is still MIA, and gorrad and juls aren't contributing enough today to make me feel comfortable about either of them... although, he is in my group of 3: {hohum, d_j, Gorrad}... maybe you are onto something.

Second, I already said I want answers from Hohum, and that means even if I have to sacrifice my choice lynch to get them. I hate that my vote is getting nailed down here, but I made a commitment and I aim to honor that commitment. If he gets replaced, I'll have no choice but to unvote, and now I know right where to put it.

Also, I've been blind on Don John today, not necessarily the whole game. If you would like to illustrate where I've been critical of Don John today, be my guest.

Pokerface: Can you elaborate on your VP/Vi/Hohum theory? I get VP/Hohum, but how does Vi factor in?

[Zilla]

Gorrad, have you looked at other people besides Juls?

[Vi]

I wouldn't say he's my number 1 because I don't feel he is scummy, but I can't logically believe him, and logically, if he's lying, he's more than likely scum.

Why can't you logically believe him?

-----

when i consciously try to avoid tunneling on my day 1 suspicions so as to try and play this game open minded, vi accuses me of not scumhunting. have you ever read towndj? he's got a horrible track record. he tunnels incessantly and has NEVER lynched scum successfully.

Oh, poor you. Do you think parking your vote on a lurker or following someone else's vote analysis is going to make things better?

contradictory stances can be indicative of someone who is "uninformed". funny how you don't see that possibility.

Uninformed about who to back at any given time, right?

-----

What makes you think I'm hiding something? And, even if I were, why should I tell you?

I appreciate the work you did looking at the vote counts, but

I think Jahudo was trying to tell us something here

⁽¹⁾

Same goes to you don... if anyone needs to explain anything, its you for flipping your vote at the last minute yesterday.⁽²⁾

I think continuing to scum hunt in this manner would not be pro-town.⁽³⁾

As I said earlier,⁽⁴⁾ (...)

(1) Objecting to the vote analysis as a whole in a way that I had already answered via exclusively looking at the Largest Existing Wagon designators.
(2) Deflection to someone else... via vote analysis.
(3) An interesting choice of words. Not "I don't believe this is going anywhere". "This would not be pro-Town". That more than anything suggests that you're hiding something.
(4) Obvious reversion to your previous plan.

If you can do weird things with the vote count, now would be a good time to say so. I think it would be valuable to have as much of an idea as possible what is manipulating the vote count.

@the trade: Oh, I couldn't do that. Please, just take my payment~

Vi, why is a lack of votes on dj a sign that you're on the right track? I've been lobbying for a gorrad lynch for a while, and there have been a lack of votes there.. is that proof gorrad is scum?

That's why I said I was tempted to say it. I know it's not good grounding for an accusation

[Gorrad]

Gorrad, have you looked at other people besides Juls?

I've already mentioned dislike of D_J.

[Juls]

Catching up now...sorry I fell asleep last night.