Mini 783: Cowboy Bebop Mafia - Game Over, Space Cowboy

[Vi]

Let me rephrase... when I agreed with the natural absence of the RVS, I did realize I signed a blood contract that if I didn't start asking questions right away I would be deemed scum.

So... you saw that the game (serious mode) had started, and you didn't want to play...?

Not quite, actually. Half of the players are answering questions. Not all can be discussion leaders all the time.

Ya might wanna read that one again. 3 other players who HAVE posted weren't asking questions either (hint: Shadowgirl, baltar, and Juls), and they all posted before/during the question phase. I haven't even thought of non-contribs yet.

*reads* ...oh. ^.^;

Damn what was she smoking? Pass that good shit arround[/bad joke]

Um, the blowfish is playing in this game, but hasn't posted yet

I don't think I contradicted myself, because that would mean I was 100% committed to one particular side. I don't see a problem with discussing all possibilities, as they are, well, indeed possible!

There's also a possibility that everyone in this game is a Cult Leader. That doesn't mean that it's a possibility worth discussing.
Your dissenting view - "well maybe she was planning to do this since the last game" - seems very weak compared to your apparently Amazing Meta on Juls. So why toss dirt at Juls?

----

Also I think it is probably a good idea to hear Juls role 'flavor'. Not sure which of the show's character would rationally be a miller in this game.

Do you see any downside to this suggestion? (Forewarning: I do)

[forbiddanlight]

So I learned the hardway in Insane Asylum Mafia to claim this role in your first post so I am gonna go ahead and do it...

I see ^-^

3. forbiddanlight = Weren't you the mod of the insane asylum game? What do you think of Juls claim here in relation to it?

Perfectly natural. That game was just playing with cops and millers to see how useless I could make a cop while improving the power of the miller role without implicitly doing anything to it.

Of course, there is also a slightly higher liklihood than the average she is claiming it as scum since she's more familiar with the role.

Bonus Question addressed to everyone:
Do you believe her and why?

For now, null tell. She could be lying, and she could be telling the truth. Her play will be the barometer. Oh, and for those paying attention at home, I treat death millers the same way.

Also, anyone know anything about this Cowboy Bebop TV show? Until I got my role PM, I assumed we were all gonna be ridin' steers and square dancin'. Yee Haw!

It is one of the greatest anime ever with the best soundtrack I have ever heard.

I'd link you to a stream but none of my usual sites are loading .


Also,

Vote Jahudo

Obvscum.

[Vi]

Oh, and for those paying attention at home, I treat death millers the same way.

I'm somewhat afraid to ask what experience you have with Death Millers.

So what do you think of the stuff going on that doesn't have to do with the Miller claim?

[forbiddanlight]

Plus if someone says "hai gaiz" and votes we can all wagon that player for being a Philistine

Oops

Nope.
I've heard of the trope Cowboy Bebop At His Computer, but that's it.

Please tell me I'm not going to be the resident anime expert AGAIN? (It happened last time in Suzumiya Haruhi mafia, though not to much use)

Ed is the most interesting character to me because Ed is a girl. In fact, that would be a perfect role for Vi. So, I demand that Ed be added to your avatar list for future use Vi!!!

Ah, Radical Ed ^-^. Good times.

Damn what was she smoking? Pass that good shit arround[/bad joke]

Probably a fish. It was an interesting set up if I do say so myself.

I'm somewhat afraid to ask what experience you have with Death Millers.

So what do you think of the stuff going on that doesn't have to do with the Miller claim?

Um...I modded one once...and played a Tar game with them.

As for non miller related stuff, I'm not seeing much that piques my interest. The Rhinox point is possible, but I'm not seeing it as too much at the moment.

[charlatan]

/confirm

Just picked up my role PM now and I see we've already gotten three pages in. I'm at work now, but I'll catch up in a few hours and post something more substantial.

[don_johnson]

this game is off to a quick start it seems. i have grazed a bit and realize we are skipping the rvs, so i'll be doing a read through and posting later.

[Zilla]

Wow, game's already rolling. Here's a confirm post, I've got some reading to do.

[Gorrad]

Yo! I'm here. Pokerface, you ready to take this game by storm?

The only benefit to a late miller claim is the same as the benefit to any late claim, you aren't giving scum early information. Scum have enough info that any withheld is good withheld. However, the negatives in the case of millers claiming late make doing so not, in my opinion, worth it. Though I must say, I have never played a miller.

[Zilla]

hmm questionaire time

2.

VP Baltar

= As a new player would you claim early or late if you were a miller
3.

forbiddanlight

= Weren't you the mod of the insane asylum game? What do you think of Juls claim here in relation to it?
4.

ShadowGirl

= Should we ask for flavor with Juls claim at this time?
5.

don_johnson

= What merit if any do you see in how or why she claimed?
6.

charlatan

= What are the cons of claiming miller early
7.

Zilla

= What are the cons of claiming miller later
8. Juls = already questioned some good luck in your finals
9.

Gorrad

= What are the pros of claiming miller later
10.

Rhinox

= What are the pros of claiming miller early
11.

Vi

= Is this the first game you have played where you didn't want a random voting stage? If so any particular reason you didn't want one?
12.

ZEEnon

= Which do you think is better, a random vote stage at the start or a discussion stage

Bonus Question addressed to everyone:
Do you believe her and why?

I don't see why you only addressed specific questions to specific players, really, other than maybe not wanting to pose an intimidating question.

Cons of later miller claiming - I dunno, maybe less believable? I'd usually claim later rather than sooner.

I don't particularly believe her, but I don't think it indicates scum either. There's a chance it's a pro-town ploy.

Mind you, I quoted and answered this right after I read it, I haven't read the full thread yet.

[Zilla]

I don't like Poker's chainsaw defense of Juls.

Answers in bold

Now you get questions:
How do you know Juls would be a mislynch?

I don't. I was illustrating a point of view a scum like you could have there

What logic am I undermining/backtracking?

Your own. You back tracked. You said I doubt someone with here character would do this and then you said but what she could have been planning this all along.

A better answer would have been I don't think she would lie it's not in her character

Why am I being singled out when everyone else who has answered, including yourself, has been somewhat vague and left the option open to lynch juls later on?

I didn't go back on my logic. You said one thing then looked at the oposite perspective. I said I believed and did not imediatly say I disbelieve or give a worst case scenario that instills doubt in my previous logic. Causing a mislynch would be a 'possible' extension there.

This whole line of attack is based on Rhinox looking at a situation with more than one perspective. It's hardly a scumtell. I especially don't like the underlined portion, where he says it would have been better not to provide another perspective and to agree that Juls wouldn't possibly lie.

I don't think considering all options is a scumtell. I think attacking someone for not being certain about something IS a scumtell.

vote: Pokerface

[Zilla]

FL, no, you're not the only anime expert here.

I don't know about Jul's threatening to quit mafiascum, but it doesn't earn any sympathy votes from me. I'm still mistrustful of something that potentially guarantees a free ride to end game, no matter what meta lies behind it. At the same time, I can see pro-town value in that deception, in case she's not a miller but a good power role that wants to remain untouched by a mafia that is more concerned with finding power roles than a miller that the town might not trust entirely.

There's a lot of room for ambiguity in this situation, and overall, I'm going to treat it as a null-tell right now. I don't particularly believe it, but there's nothing to disprove it either, so I'll be playing as if she hadn't said anything.

[ZEEnon]

Oh hey guys! Fast start to this game, I like it.

Juls claiming miller early on is pro-town for the most part.
This lets us know that we do in fact have a cop.
It also helps the cop become aware that there very well may be a godfather role in the game.
Not only that, but if a cop were to say investigate her the night before LYLO, that could end up losing the game for us.
The draw back to this is that she could very well be scum using this as an excuse to avoid cop investigations.
I view this as a null-tell towards her alignment, but it does help us with set-up speculation.

ZEEnon = Which do you think is better, a random vote stage at the start or a discussion stage

In my opinion, random voting stage doesn't really benefit us at all,
and usually ends up in a bandwagon on town early on for pathetic reasons.
In my experience, town-aligned players are more prone to making mistakes than scum are.
This is because scum are more cautious, while town know they have nothing to fear.

Do you believe her and why?

As of yet, I have nothing to make me

not

believe her.

[Gorrad]

Serious question: How many setups with a cop do NOT have a GF role?

[ZEEnon]

Not sure of the exact amount, but i'm assuming that most do not.
I'm not saying we have a godfather, i'm just saying that if there is a miller,
there is a chance that there is a godfather role and that cops can not be 100% confident in their results.

[ZEEnon]

I don't particularly believe it, but there's nothing to disprove it either, so I'll be playing as if she hadn't said anything.

You can't ignore the fact that she claimed.
It's already happened, and you have to relate all her actions to her claim.

[Gorrad]

I see a Godfather in almost every game I enter.

Of course, I enter almost exclusively themes, so take of that as you will, but still. It's one of the more common mafia roles. That and RB.

[ZEEnon]

Well I can back up the fact that you do, since you were just lynched as a godfather by me.

[Gorrad]

Screw you and your ongoing games reference .

[ZEEnon]

OSHI-, I thought that was long over.
Just kidding. Odds are you are town this game.

[Gorrad]

I couldn't agree with you more.

[Zilla]

Clarification: I'll not use her claim as evidence when judging her alignment.

[charlatan]

6.

charlatan

= What are the cons of claiming miller early

Bonus Question addressed to everyone:
Do you believe her and why?

If you're telling the truth and the scum believe you, they're likely to lynch elsewhere and thus more likely to hit a useful power role. Of course, if a cop investigates you and it leads to a mislynch, that's problematic, too, so I can understand taking either route. It gets problematic, though -- a miller who claims Day 1 assumes a) that there's a cop at all, which may not be a safe assumption (I am not huge on assumptions in general), and b) that they're going to get investigated before they're night-killed, which is even less of a safe assumption. A miller's lack of powers makes it getting night-killed a positive outcome. Were I playing the miller, frankly, I don't think right now that I'd claim it Day 1. I'd be happy to get killed off at night.

You didn't ask me about the pros, though, and I acknowledge those as well. I'm close to 50/50 on how it ought to be played in general, and I think one also has to take into account the actual miller his/herself and their style. Ultimately, it's a close enough call that I can understand taking both stances, and so I'm not going to fault Juls for the claim in and of itself. Play's going to decide it for me, too.

As for the bonus question: I don't know. Yes, I suppose, but not strongly.

@PF: I don't see any reason not to ask for a flavour claim. I'm not familliar with the flavour or anything, or whether revealing hers could help scum?

Some of us are familiar, so it's probably worth it in general.

Also, anyone know anything about this Cowboy Bebop TV show? Until I got my role PM, I assumed we were all gonna be ridin' steers and square dancin'. Yee Haw!

Fixed quote tags. ~Jah.

Yeah. I'm not really into anime, but this one is worth the time.

Juls claiming miller early on is pro-town for the most part. This lets us know that we do in fact have a cop.

How does Juls claiming miller early make it a fact that there's a cop? I might've missed something here.

[Zilla]

If there's a miller, there's a cop.

It's pretty much like if someone claimed lynchee, there's more than likely a lyncher, or someone claims psychologist, there's more than likely a cult leader. There's the off-chance that a mod makes a miller but no cop just to screw with people (Farside had a cult-immune role in a game with no cult, for instance), but it's safe to assume a miller means a cop.

[Zilla]

I'm slightly concerned over the bravado behind Vi's actions. She's being quite proactive, but that's also a great spot for scum to be. I'm particularly interested in how she has been targetting certain players with certain questions. It gives the illusion of being really organized, or the appearance of having some kind of "master plan" for finding scum, which builds unwarranted town trust. Furthermore, the hyper-directed approach allows her to ask "safe" questions to scumbuddies while still appearing to grill them.

IGMEOY Vi

[ShadowGirl]

Since I've been in so many games with Juls, I would say I don't think its in her nature to try this kind of a gambit as scum. However, its possible she'd been planning on trying it ever since that last game she linked to. Again, I don't know a whole lot about millers.

Since you've said you've been in so many games with Juls' - does her current behaviour match her town meta? Scum meta?

@FL: I totally called that anti-miller. ;P Nobody believed me, though. :

uot;]This lets us know that we do in fact have a cop.

Not for certain. Jahudo could just be messing with us. I don't see the reasoning that makes this pro-town. After all, town shouldn't be entirely concerned about there is a cop - they should be scumhunting on their own. It probably benifits scum more, seeing as they now know of one power that is out there 'for sure'. [More often then not in such cases.]