Mini 783: Cowboy Bebop Mafia - Game Over, Space Cowboy

[PokerFace]

Ebwop

Just skimming. I'm not all caught up to say much. Still don't like hohum, Vi and to a lesser extent VP BUT looking at what juls just caught DJ doing is just epic. DJ not looking good at all if he

voted

the crime boss while getting that name.

@Mod can we get a vote count?

If DJ is to be hammered it should be done while testing Charlaton's skills

Hohum can still be scum with DJ since DJ unvoted just because there was going to be a replacement (just because someone is getting replaced is not a reason to unvote, its a reason to watch the next guy closely). I'd advise people review those interactions especially end of day 1 stuff since that may be very telling once we learn of one scum. Not sure on my VP and VI suspicions if DJ is scum. I'd have to look back at that some other time.

Don't hammer imediatly but do Give DJ sometime for him to explain his reasoning there ...if he actually can.

The game going to night while I'll have no access 4-7 won't be a problem for me. I will probably have less to catch up on when I come back and if I'm still alive. Its not like I can perform night talk with Xtoxm dead.

[don_johnson]

i am basically a masonizer with a twist. at night i can send a pm to the mod containing one players name. if that player holds the role of crime boss, then we become masons.

when zee dropped the role name, i was thinking he was "EXTREMELY TOWN".

oh really? Lets take a trip down memory lane...

unvote, vote zeenon

if you have a transferable power, i am happy to take it. not sure why its odd that i don't trust you.

at this point he had not claimed the role. i had no idea crime boss was transferable.

Alright, seriously. The first list I posted is the list that I am going to send to the mod.
The one with charlatan first because he is the most scummy to me.
charlatan: I suggest you start thinking of what a

Crime Boss

would work like.

i don't like this at all. again, its a no win situation for dj.

vote: zeenon

Extremely town huh?

not yet. it's no win for me. i.e. i lynch the crime boss, or go with the unclaimed "lurker/policy" lynch. i was against the hohum lynch, rmrmeber? zeenon also claimed his role was "transferable".

And there is much more to my role than meets the eye.. take that scum!

^^^ this got me thinking.

]Care to explain why you voted afterwards don if he was "extremely town"? It makes your vote/revote even more of an intriguing question.

what if hohum was doc? same reason i was against the hohum lynch in the first place. hence the unvote/vote, hence my internal debate about whether or not to go through with the zeenon lynch. i am semi-confirmable. lynching me is silly.

[don_johnson]

fail guys, i am town. vi should be lynched next.

[PokerFace]

VI

Daykill: PokerFace

Investigating this claim; brb.

Until then,

Unvote: don_johnson

.

Lulz yay that was totally my bad. nice joke though

[don_johnson]

gorrad: not sure who brought it up, but there was speculation about this being a masons/mafia type set up very early on. there has been mod confirmation that there exists no survivor roles, and the mafia is possibly a force of four. my role technically has a 10% chance of succeeding on night 1. is that so odd?

i cannot be a double voter. the cases on me have been laden with misrep. what possible motivation would i have for my actions at the end of day one if not the ones which i have put forth?

[don_johnson]

mod: am i hammered or what?

[VP Baltar]

More catching up, posting as I go along here:

I'm going to come back to Gorrad in a post later today.

This is a lecture on how to grill someone.

I would agree with this. Is there anyway we can cut down on the some of the pointless accusations. Reading this game is becoming more of a chore than fun (like it was on day 1). I don't mind active discussion, but having to slog through giant walls of essentially pointless drival is making me very apathetic toward this game in general. Note: I'm not really accusing Zilla of this alone, there are several different people doing it (and even I have been guilty of it at points).

VP why are you defending hohum so strongly?

4) I'm town and thought the attacks against him were very very weak and were mostly being purpotraited because he wasn't here. I don't like it when people beat a sleeping dog. However, I was also going on the implicit belief that he would come in at some point and start answering some of the myriad questions put to him. Right now I'm just wondering why Jahudo hasn't replaced him altogether.

It does confirm that Vi is not a double voter, however, to those keeping close track of the votes today to sniff one out.

Yep, my thoughts exactly. Now, if we were willing to risk a don lynch (which I am ok with), we could have either Juls, Zilla or Vi unvote and have Rhinox vote for Don. This would prove or disprove if he has the ability to double vote.

Don 1188 is full of flailing and not a lot of argument refutatioin.

This is the EXACT same approach he's used in all of his "misrep" arguments, and how he tries to get out of scrutiny on his positions.

I would agree with this.

@don's claim--I have never heard of a "masonizer" or similar role.

Yep, Juls hits it right on the head.

Before we lynch don, can we test Rhinox's ability to double vote? We may as well at least confirm or deny this before ending the day. That means someone needs to unvote, Charlatan needs to revote and then Rhinox needs to vote...if I'm keeping count correctly.

[Vi]

First thoughts.

If everything so far is true, there seem way too many "confirmable" roles ITT. Srsly, four Masons and the ability to create lists of Townies for the mod to check? I'm not so worried about PokerFace because an actual Mason has died and nobody has counterclaimed him, but there's a chance that what's going on may be too good to be true.

deej, why did you flip your vote in the last five minutes of D1?

I have no problem with you submitting charlatan's name overnight. If charlatan wasn't the Crime Boss last night, you would have been and there would be no need for your advisor role. Assuming everything you're claiming is accurate, of course.

It is still possible for one of the following to be true:
*The Crime Boss title did not pass down (charlatan is scum) (can be confirmed either way later)
*d_j is everything he claimed to be, and still scum.

-----

i cannot be a double voter.

Are you claiming part of your role, or are you saying you are not a double voter right now?

Before we lynch don, can we test Rhinox's ability to double vote?

What do you expect to gain from this?

[VP Baltar]

What do you expect to gain from this?

Whether or not Rhinox is the double voter, which would at least move us one step closer to proving or disproving your theory on the vote count. However, testing this would be dependent upon your willingness to lynch don, which I sense you are suddenly hesitant about.

[Vi]

What do you expect to gain from this?

Whether or not Rhinox is the double voter, which would at least move us one step closer to proving or disproving your theory on the vote count. However, testing this would be dependent upon your willingness to lynch don, which I sense you are suddenly hesitant about.

"suddenly hesitant"?
What are you implying?

I can also tell you with certainty that Rhinox is not a doublevoter, and I'm surprised you would make such a mistake.

You're scum, aren't you?~

[charlatan]

First thoughts.

If everything so far is true, there seem way too many "confirmable" roles ITT. Srsly, four Masons and the ability to create lists of Townies for the mod to check?

This is a good point. I wonder if scum have some unexpected chops to even things out? It might be the hidden explanation for some of the voting mysteries we've been seeing. Or, d_j and/or myself are completely full of it.

That means someone needs to unvote, Charlatan needs to revote and then Rhinox needs to vote...if I'm keeping count correctly.

I don't want to lynch him right now. I want him to try and use the ability tonight. I haven't thought of a good reason not to go for it yet; all of the scenarios I run through my head seem pretty good for the town. For instance, if he gets roleblocked to screw it up, nobody's off the hook or anything, but they use that block there instead of on a potentially more important role like a doc or cop. Same if they kill one of us, and if they kill me, my role will transfer and potentially catch scum (since my death would confirm that the role passes, too). I'd put d_j at the top of the list, obviously, so if he's lying that's not a way out for him.

Can anyone think of something I'm missing? A scenario in which giving him the night to try and make me a mason becomes disastrously harmful?

[VP Baltar]

I can also tell you with certainty that Rhinox is not a doublevoter

Is this your big secret? Please elaborate.

"suddenly hesitant"?
What are you implying?

Was there an implication in there? You were gung ho about lynching Dj, then he claimed, and you backed off and seem against his lynch based on his claim. You say this:

I have no problem with you submitting charlatan's name overnight. If charlatan wasn't the Crime Boss last night, you would have been and there would be no need for your advisor role. Assuming everything you're claiming is accurate, of course.

However, you also say that DJ having such a role would make too many confirmable town, which I would agree with.

Also, what are your thoughts on the point that Juls made and DJ's response to it?

[Vi]

d_j and/or myself are completely full of it.

You heard it here first! *lynch lynch lynch*

-----

Is this your big secret? Please elaborate.

Nope.
I've never said anything about Rhinox being a doublevoter, and the only reason coming to mind for someone who has been as invested in the vote theory as you have been making such a mistake is that it fundamentally doesn't matter to you insofar as scumhunting goes.

Was there an implication in there? You were gung ho about lynching Dj, then he claimed, and you backed off and seem against his lynch based on his claim.

Is there a problem?

However, you also say that DJ having such a role would make too many confirmable town, which I would agree with.

I don't know what kind of balancing factors may be out there for this. While there is room for doubt, it's quite possible that deej is telling the truth. You don't seem to have that lane available.

I asked if you were scum earlier, but I don't think you have to answer the question now.

Vote: VP Baltar

(L-5)

-----

Also, what are your thoughts on the point that Juls made and DJ's response to it?

I'm waiting on him to answer my question about the vote flip, which would complete his response.

Incidentally @d_j: Any relevant flavor that would support your claim?

[VP Baltar]

I've never said anything about Rhinox being a doublevoter, and the only reason coming to mind for someone who has been as invested in the vote theory as you have been making such a mistake is that it fundamentally doesn't matter to you insofar as scumhunting goes.

So you're completely ruling out the possibility that Rhinox could be a double voter based on what? Nothing? The fact that I believe it is a possiblity? Iirc, no, you never explicitly said that Rhinox could be a double voter, but you were the one who originally said that you believed he could be altering the votecount. Correct? If you don't think it is possible that he is a doublevoter, then what does it matter if we test the theory? It would do nothing if he's not, correct?

I only see two reasons for you being so adamant against it:
1) You are partners with scum-Rhinox and know that he has the double voting ability, which would out him through the test.
2)You are scum with Charlatan and know that by clearing Rhinox of the double voting ability it would make him a bit more suspicious as a potential double voter yesterday.

Obviously, there could have been other things manipulating the vote count yesterday, but if you truly believe that Rhinox can't double vote, then let's try it out.

Is there a problem?

Yeah, a bit. Considering how fervernt you were about the case, it seems a bit inconsistent to go lax and not pursue much scrutiny of the claim...at least to see if he remains consistent in his message.

You don't seem to have that lane available.

When did I say it wasn't a possibility? I think it is less likely, therefore, I think it is better to keep the pressure on DJ a bit about his claim.

If you're so apt to just believe claims so easily, why were you on ZEEnon's case yesterday so much when he claimed?

[don_johnson]

deej, why did you flip your vote in the last five minutes of D1?

though i hated lynching an absentee, knowing zeenon was most likely town simply raised the probability that hohum might be scum. i was trying to do what was best for town. i.e. lynch scum.

It is still possible for one of the following to be true:
*The Crime Boss title did not pass down (charlatan is scum) (can be confirmed either way later)

i doubt this highly. if zeenon lied in this manner then i will lobby for them to banned from this site. players, at the very least, should be bound to play to their win conditions. willfully giving scum a safehaven seems to me to be against the town win condition.

*d_j is everything he claimed to be, and still scum.

not sure which scum you think would carry this power, but yes, i realize that a successful night action would not necessarily confirm me as town.

i cannot be a double voter.

Are you claiming part of your role, or are you saying you are not a double voter right now?

i suppose i could be. i am not now but it is not part of my role to not be. i think if charlatan were scum i would have recieved the crime boss role. there is nothing stipulating that i cannot, and apparently zee stated in thread that the power is transferred to the first town aligned player on the list and granted in addittion to existing powers.

Incidentally @d_j: Any relevant flavor that would support your claim?

no. just alignment, role name, and ability.

[Vi]

Regarding Rhinox and the doublevote: You... DID! NOT! DO! THE! RESEARCH!

Conclusions.
1) Someone on the ZEEnon wagon in #20 had a doublevote, and it's not d_j. (This leaves VP Baltar, Juls, me, and you)

2) Someone on the hohum wagon in #20 had a nullvote, and it's not ZEEnon or d_j or Xtoxm. (This leaves Zilla and Rhinox)

3. Wacky role-related vote mechanics that specifically deal in messing around with tiebreakers.

Further investigation.

Zilla did not have a nullvote. From these same vote counts, VP Baltar did not have a doublevote.

I cannot verify that Rhinox's vote counts.

If my point is not

abundantly

clear, please let me know.

Yeah, a bit. Considering how fervernt you were about the case, it seems a bit inconsistent to go lax and not pursue much scrutiny of the claim...at least to see if he remains consistent in his message.

I have no idea where you're getting this accusation of not scrutinizing the claim from.

If you're so apt to just believe claims so easily, why were you on ZEEnon's case yesterday so much when he claimed?

I believe I've said this multiple times already as well.

Its like you lynched him because you thought he was town.

Precisely!
Option: Don't Lynch ZEEnon and assume he's Town. Continue to wonder through the game if he IS Town (no hindsight allowed) given his erratic play.
Option: Lynch ZEEnon and learn he's scum. Yay, scumlynch!
Option: Lynch ZEEnon and learn he's Town (and telling the truth). We've lost a Townie, sure, but we've also got what amounts to a free investigation on at least one player of his choice (and they weren't bad choices, surprisingly).
Option: Lynch ZEEnon and learn he's Town (and lying). Yay, scumlynch!

You've been floating along on top of my words for too long. You need to die. Today.

-----

i doubt this highly. if zeenon lied in this manner then i will lobby for them to banned from this site. players, at the very least, should be bound to play to their win conditions. willfully giving scum a safehaven seems to me to be against the town win condition.

You said you did not want to assume charlatan was anything but the doublevoter he claimed to be from the beginning of the Day (#79). You have had literally no confirmation that charlatan is a doublevoter (you did not receive a message saying you were Roleblocked, just that your ability would not take effect). Is this confidence in charlatan based solely on ZEEnon's words?

[don_johnson]

You said you did not want to assume charlatan was anything but the doublevoter he claimed to be from the beginning of the Day (#79). You have had literally no confirmation that charlatan is a doublevoter (you did not receive a message saying you were Roleblocked, just that your ability would not take effect). Is this confidence in charlatan based solely on ZEEnon's words?

i would say "mainly" instead of "solely". if zeenon lied about his role, then he screwed the town and should not be allowed in these forums. when i recieved the response to my night action i half expected to recieve another pm granting me the role of crime boss. i also speculated that the role might pass me over due to the particulars of my ability. but a another pm never came. i tried to draw out a counterclaim, but to no avail.

as i mentioned before, zeenon presents himself as many things, but a vindictive poor sport is not one of them(imo). also, please note that i cannot confirm whether or not char is a double voter, only that he did in fact recieve the role of crime boss. whether or not the ability goes with it is going to need to be proven in thread.

[Jahudo]

If hohum does not post in 24 hours he will be replaced. A replacement is ready to jump in at that time.

RE: don_johnson, you were not hammah’ed.

Vote Count #4 of Day 2

don_johnson ––– Juls, Zilla, Gorrad
charlatan ––– hohum
Vi ––– PokerFace
hohum ––– Rhinox
VP Baltar ––– Vi


Not Voting ––– VP Baltar, don_johnson, charlatan

With 10 alive, it takes 6 votes to lynch.
Day 2 Deadline is June 15th at 12:00 pm EST.

[VP Baltar]

If my point is not abundantly clear, please let me know.

Well lookk right at your original analysis. You stated that Rhinox has the possibility of being a double voter (point 1) or has the possibility of being a null voter (point 2), or it is something else altogether.

Now you are saying:

I can also tell you with certainty that Rhinox is not a doublevoter

So, explain to me (with certainty) how Rhinox is suddenly cleared of the double vote. I pointed out two good reasons why you wouldn't want to test if Rhinox can double vote. You haven't given a good reason not to try it, especially if you believe that he can't. If he can't, then what is the harm other than absolutely disproving this as a viable argument?

I'm starting to think I'm on the right track here, which coincidentally makes me think dj is less likely to be scum.

New scum team assessment: Vi-Rhinox/Charlatan-Gorrad

[Vi]

1) Someone on the ZEEnon wagon in #20 had a doublevote, and it's not d_j.

(This leaves VP Baltar, Juls, me, and you)

2) Someone on the hohum wagon in #20 had a nullvote, and it's not ZEEnon or d_j or Xtoxm.

(This leaves Zilla and Rhinox)

Discuss.

Final Vote Count of Day 1

ZEEnon ––– VP Baltar, Juls, Vi, charlatan, Zilla
Hohum –––Rhinox, Xtoxm, ZEEnon, don_johnson

If Rhinox had a doublevote, hohum should have been lynched 6-5.

Continue discussion.

[Rhinox]

I know I have to catch up more than this, but...

1) Someone on the ZEEnon wagon in #20 had a doublevote, and it's not d_j.

(This leaves VP Baltar, Juls, me, and you)

2) Someone on the hohum wagon in #20 had a nullvote, and it's not ZEEnon or d_j or Xtoxm.

(This leaves Zilla and Rhinox)

Discuss.

Final Vote Count of Day 1

ZEEnon ––– VP Baltar, Juls, Vi, charlatan, Zilla
Hohum –––Rhinox, Xtoxm, ZEEnon, don_johnson

If Rhinox had a doublevote, hohum should have been lynched 6-5.

Continue discussion.

According to the final vote count, if Zilla had a null vote, wouldn't Hohum have been lynched there, 5-4?

[VP Baltar]

Ok, you're right, but doesn't that then mean that (barring "wacky" vote mechanics) that Rhinox manipulated the vote count?

[Vi]

I know I have to catch up more than this, but...

1) Someone on the ZEEnon wagon in #20 had a doublevote, and it's not d_j.

(This leaves VP Baltar, Juls, me, and you)

2) Someone on the hohum wagon in #20 had a nullvote, and it's not ZEEnon or d_j or Xtoxm.

(This leaves Zilla and Rhinox)

Discuss.

Final Vote Count of Day 1

ZEEnon ––– VP Baltar, Juls, Vi, charlatan, Zilla
Hohum –––Rhinox, Xtoxm, ZEEnon, don_johnson

If Rhinox had a doublevote, hohum should have been lynched 6-5.

Continue discussion.

According to the final vote count, if Zilla had a null vote, wouldn't Hohum have been lynched there, 5-4?

Further investigation.

Zilla did not have a nullvote.

From these same vote counts, VP Baltar did not have a doublevote.

I cannot verify that Rhinox's vote counts.

Resume discussion.

Ok, you're right, but doesn't that then mean that (barring "wacky" vote mechanics) that Rhinox manipulated the vote count?

That's one of the three possibilities open.

[don_johnson]

candidates for null vote: dj, rhinox

VP: do you think zeenon lied to us about his role being able to be passed down?

to all: what are the odds of a double voting scum role offsetting the crime boss?

[Vi]

candidates for null vote: dj

Vote Count #20 of Day 1

ZEEnon ––– VP Baltar, Juls, Vi, charlatan, don_johnson

(4)

(Current Largest Wagon)
Hohum –––Zilla, Rhinox, Xtoxm, ZEEnon

(5)

Discuss.