Mini 783: Cowboy Bebop Mafia - Game Over, Space Cowboy

[don_johnson]

So, to clarify, you think juls is a godfather who claimed miller because she then thought a cop would investigate her and get an innocent, and thusly, question his or her own sanity?

bolded is the misrep. yes, i realize the whole statement is bolded. i never said this is what i think, i just don't understand why people seem to place this out of the realm of possibility. a godfather with a believable "miller" claim gets a veritable free ride to endgame, and helps to throw suspicion on the sanity of any cop who chooses to investigate. is it a convolueted possibility? yes. but we're not playing hopskotch.

[Vi]

The second half of your post is a non sequitur par excellence (where did we go from Godfathers to investigating Millers?).

one more time for the slow kids trying to sing the duet in the back.

gorrad says "godfather" is one of the more common roles in a game of mafia.

gorrad then says

A cop could target a claimed miller to test sanity. As a claimed miller would, no matter what, turn up anti-town, they would be a perfect test.

okay? are you ready?

why does gorrad not realize that a "claimed miller" could be a gambiting godfather? its a contradiction, not a reach. investigating a "claimed miller" proves absolutely nothing. got it? NOTHING!

This is the first time I've heard of a Godfather gambiting in such a way. I see no need for an inv. immune Godfather to do such a thing, besides (unless the Godfather wanted to claim Miller AND get the scumpartners to convince the Town that the Cop wants to investigate said Godfather AND thus convince the Town that the Cop is insane and/or naive). It seems like an overly drawn-out gambit that costs too much for too little result, especially since the scumteam has to assume that there's a Cop in the game in the first place for it to be worth anything.

I'd ask you to stop spinning theory webs and start talking about people hating other people, but that's not the kind of advice I'd like to give scum so I'll see what you do on your own

vi: why are you voting gorrad? exactly what is dubious about me pointing out what i see as "contradictions"? did you not read my recent post where i explained that i wasn't comprehending gorrad's initial statement properly or did you just choose to ignore it?

I'm voting Gorrad because all of his posts have been based on theory, and unlike Zilla I'm not especially seeing the Towniness in it.
What's dubious about pointing out these contradictions is that the reasoning needed to see them as contradictions is so far-fetched that quite frankly I see no reason to place stock in it. For instance, Gorrad said "no matter what, a claimed Miller would investigate guilty". You say that it could be a Godfather gambiting. Yes, it

could

be the case. But the chances of it are low enough that it's hardly plausible as an objection. Plus Gorrad's statement does not make a distinction between NK-immune Godfathers (which I see as more common) and inv. immune Godfathers.
I saw where you said you didn't understand Gorrad's initial statement. I don't understand your lack of understanding. You said you didn't see any downsides to a late claim, and then came back and pointed to where Gorrad endorses an EARLY claim and says that it's a benefit to a late claim unlike a late claim of any other role. Which makes no sense.

a godfather with a believable "miller" claim gets a veritable free ride to endgame,

My initial response, in 20 words or less.
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

...I believe that was pulled from Dorothy Parker.

Anyway. My position is that investigating Millers is a bad idea in the first place, so I'm really having a hard time empathizing with this paranoia.

[Rhinox]

Well, yes. It could have been an attempt to go under the radar and/or contribute that kinda didn't work.

I'm having trouble assigning an alignment to her posts though.

This I can agree with.

FYI: Gorrad has 3216 posts at an average of 4.39 per day. Since last posting here, Gor has made 21 posts in 5 games and 1 GD thread... Why are we being ignored?

[Jahudo]

Gorrad has been prodded.
Day 1 deadline will be Monday May 18th at noon EST.

[don_johnson]

You said you didn't see any downsides to a late claim

, and then came back and pointed to where Gorrad endorses an EARLY claim and says that it's a benefit to a late claim unlike a late claim of any other role.

bolded is the misrep. why are people having so much trouble understanding me?

i haven't said anything of the sort.

For instance, Gorrad said "no matter what, a claimed Miller would investigate guilty".

^^ not true. it could be a town gambit. the fact is, the possibilities exist for there to be other results. the fact that people are believing the claim and suggesting we use the miller as a "sanity" gauge for a cop is what i have issues with. you agree with me that using the miller in this way is a bad idea, yet you call me dubious for arguing this point with others. what gives?

[Juls]

If there is one thing that I do regret about claiming it is this distraction it has caused by the theory discussion. Leave the theory to the mafia discussion forum and lets scum hunt here. I have skimmed the past couple of pages and will put something together tonight in response.

[Vi]

You said you didn't see any downsides to a late claim

, and then came back and pointed to where Gorrad endorses an EARLY claim and says that it's a benefit to a late claim unlike a late claim of any other role.

bolded is the misrep. why are people having so much trouble understanding me?

i haven't said anything of the sort.

Okay, that came out wrong.

Gorrad

said he didn't see any

upsides

to a late claim other than that one, and then you're trying to show another place where he endorsed an early claim and calling contradiction. Which is still not satisfying.
You can say that Gorrad's conclusion (that a Miller would ALWAYS show up Guilty to a Sane investigation) is false, sure, but suggesting there's a deliberate contradiction in there is weak.

For instance, Gorrad said "no matter what, a claimed Miller would investigate guilty".

^^ not true. it could be a town gambit. the fact is, the possibilities exist for there to be other results. the fact that people are believing the claim and suggesting we use the miller as a "sanity" gauge for a cop is what i have issues with. you agree with me that using the miller in this way is a bad idea, yet you call me dubious for arguing this point with others. what gives?

I'm arguing that the Cop most likely doesn't need to test sanity in the first place.
You're arguing that the Miller would be a bad way to test sanity due to various sorts of gambitry.
Same conclusion, different decency levels of reasoning.

-----

Leave the theory to the mafia discussion forum

But that's where scum lie about their own metas so yeah

[Gorrad]

I've been neglecting this game. This post is to remind myself to not do so.

I'm going to read through, but I'm insanely busy today and tomorrow. I'll have something up in the next day or two though.

[Zilla]

I brought up framers because I've seen them as often as I've seen Godfathers on this site, though due to their role, they never seem to be effective at anything.

Framers are a mafia role that target a person at night. If the cop also targets that person, they get a guilty on them even if they are actually innocent. It came up because we're addressing all possibilities.

@ Vi: How pro-town are Gorrad and Rhinox for their exchange?

I dunno, a 3 on a 5 point scale? I don't work in that kind of quantification system. If they appear really skillful players, it's less, and if they aren't as skilled, it's more.

@ Vi: Chainsaw.

Lol @ Texas Chainsaw Massacre. My point is that it's a case of the pot calling the kettle black more than actual accusation of chainsawing, in that if you think I'm 'sawing for Rhinox, who's to say FL isn't 'sawing for Pokerface?

Also, I believe chainsaw defense works both to defend scum and defend town. As such, Juls doesn't have to be scum to have scum defend her.

Re: Vi's pro-town appearance

I'll do this in a separate post so I don't have to open crazy tabs and etc.

Re: Vi: FL/PF pair

Yeah, it's a bit thick. Still, it's something to consider when FL is voting me for voting PF, and then she expresses very similar thinking. The likelihood is small, but it's worth noting.

Are you saying you don't see how putting self-preservation ahead of helping town win is scummy?

You seem rather fond of bringing up the opinion that Juls is scum trying to get a free pass to endgame. To which I bring this up again--

What sort of meta do you have on the people in this player set? What sort of meta do you expect Juls has?

--as what I remember of your backup for supporting this belief is based on what Juls thinks she can get away with ITT.

This has nothing to do with Juls. This is about Rhinox's debate with Gorrad over the negetives of claiming later, and how Gorrad could be scummy for placing more importance on keeping yourself alive than hunting scum. I was wrong on what Gorrad thought, but my frame of mind at the time was that Gorrad was more interested in self-survival than hunting scum. Juls is a completely separate issue.

Also, my backup on not believing Juls is just standard paranoia that the claim benefits scum if scum does it and it's believed. I don't have any meta on Juls aside from a Marathon game, and IIRC, she was town in that.

Re: Vi: IGMEOY is bad

Apparently this acronym is a scumtell to you? It's strange because your stance on FL is analogous to mine in that post, that she was likely a clueless townie, but that she could be scum just making bare minimal contribution. To me FOS is past-tense, that once you levy it, it's about something that happened, and is in the past. IGMEOY is more of an ongoing thing, saying that you've done something suspicious that I'm going to be analyzing based on your next moves.

Re: Vi: "Prove I don't think it's chainsaw!"

That's my point; she's accusing me of voting PF on something that she doesn't believe is chainsaw, but that doesn't matter. If

I believe

it's chainsaw, I'm justified in voting for it. This argument is pointless to continue.

Re: Answering FL's non-points.

I thought of including something like "IF YOU ARE NOT FORBIDDENLIGHT, SKIP TO THE ASTERISKS" because I realized it was pointless to other players for the most part.

RE: Rhinox: basis for vote on Gorrad.

I'm talking about the exchange you had with him over pros and cons over claiming later for being a miller, not how he only disucssed flavor.

Re: Don John's contradiction:

I'm pretty sure VP was talking about the contradiction that I pointed out wasn't a contradiction, not the one you think he's talking about that is something Gorrad needs to account for. The one that wasn't a contradiction WAS reaching.



Also, nobody asked for it (Kinda surprised Vi hasn't, given how it seems to be standard procedure), but here's what I think of players.

Pokerface - bad start IMO. I don't like his defense of Juls, I didn't particularly like his questionnaire, and he seemed scummy prior to page... 5? Afterward though, he didn't make the follow up plays I would have expected from scum in his position, so he is back to neutral for me.

VP Baltar - He seems to be reserved this game, very carefully picking his targets. Most of his arguments seem to be focused intently on smallish things. I wouldn't call him a bad player, but so far, it seems rather ineffective. I'm going to say not-enough-information to accurately judge him,, with a slight feeling of scum because he hasn't been as out there as he should be.

Forbiddenlight - I'm genuinely suspicious of all her misinformation and "fluff," as Vi put it. She's my top candidate for scum at the moment (no duh, I'm voting her).

ShadowGirl - needs more information. Most of her posts are explaining her read on Juls. She hasn't done any active scumhunting really. She should get into this game more. I don't find her explanation for her read on Juls inherently scummy.

Don_Johnson - At least he's actively scumhunting, even if his cases are a little far fetched. I wouldn't call him scummy just yet, but like FL, I'm wary of his misreadings.

Charlatan - Needs more information. I don't really know what to say on him, he seems to be in the background more than anything. He needs more posts.

Juls - Needs more information. I don't trust her claim. She needs to answer Vi's question regarding why she thought claiming early was good with something better than "I was thinking out loud." So far, she seems to be playing rather defensively.

Gorrad - His posts are energetic, to say the least. I don't think he's scummy, but it's interesting to watch how other people treat him. I think he looks like an easy target for someone who doesn't want to read carefully, and he holds some unpopular opinions. I don't think his stance on survival indicates he's scum, more that he wasn't considering the most pro-town option because that option isn't a part of his role. Moreover, the alternative in this case is just withholding information from mafia, which I don't think is more important than keeping town alive.

Rhinox - I don't like how he's explained himself on the same points many many times. It also seems like his story changes slightly between explanations, which is concerning. He has been trying to scumhunt though, and I'm equally impressed with the exchange with Gorrad in which he changed his mind at the end. That doesn't seem like scum behavior. I'd say he's mostly neutral in my book.

Vi - Perhaps the largest wall-o-text generator . The way she asks questions sometimes strikes me as scum looking for someone to string up more than town looking for scum, especially when it seems like there's supposed to be a right way to answer those questions. I find it strange that she doesn't voice any suspicion of me until her last post, where I'm "Scummy, leaning neutral" and then goes on to say her opinion hasn't changed since her last post. I'm leaning slightly scummy on her.

ZEEnon - needs more information. I don't like his short posts, and he really needs to elaborate on why he voted Pokerface. I really don't like how he dodged this question a few times. From what I see, I'd say he's a good candidate for scum.

Now, to show what set me off about Vi "acting" pro-town...

[Zilla]

Hmm... Day 1 has already started... and we have a crowd of experienced people around...
Let's try something different and see if we can avoid having a random vote stage. [/geek]

@ShadowGirl: Am I scummy for suggesting that we skip the RVS in favor of revealing discussion?

@VP Baltar: What do you like about the player list?

@Rhinox: When sprayed on windshields, do you cause rhinoceroses to bead and roll down the glass?

To answer for ShadowGirl, potentially yes. This could be an attempt to lead town where you want them to go. Not to mention these questions are very benign.

No, I wouldn't say nervous. I actually like playing with people who have more experience because it challenges you to play better.

Good answer. I think we'll get along well on a personal level.

I don't like the encouraging attitude here, it's potentially trying to build rapport via something that isn't related to this game at all.

Is this the first game you have played where you didn't want a random voting stage? If so any particular reason you didn't want one?

Yes, it is.
I wanted to try it because I saw a game where mith did something similar and

I thought this player group was competent enough to try it.

What I'd like to learn is whether it's easier to get out of this "leading discussion" phase and into serious play than going from an RVS to serious play.

Plus if someone says "hai gaiz" and votes we can all wagon that player for being a Philistine

So it's basically for academic reasons.

I feel bad about this one, but that's kind of the whole point. The bolded one is quite the compliment, and again, it could be an attempt to build rapport without having anything to do with the game itself.

Do you have any questions for anyone else? Not asking any that you weren't asked yourself except for the flavor-based one seems somewhat weak at best. And by weak I mean scummy, and

by scummy I mean "you know what happens when you catch my attention".

This is a subtle way of saying "I'm hyper-town, when I suspect someone, I have a VERY good reason. Trust my hunches." There is no actual evidence behind this in this example, and it comes off as an attempt at gaining influence.

Anyways, I didn't get the memo that we replaced the RVS with the RNQS (Random Non-sense question Stage)...

Um... lies? Damned lies? Perhaps even statistics?
I mean, I said pretty plainly that I wanted to try it,

a bunch of other people went with it (voluntarily!),

and you yourself commented--

Not sure what I think about intentionally trying to avoid the random voting stage... but in this case, it seems... natural.

The bolded is a tactic used in hypnosis, where the subject is told they are good for following the instructions on their own volition. It convinces the subject that they are in control of the situation entirely, and that any ideas to follow the hypnotist were theirs, and not suggested by the hypnotist. Suffice to say, this could be a tactic to build confidence that Vi's just doing what everyone already wants to do.

Also I think it is probably a good idea to hear Juls role 'flavor'. Not sure which of the show's character would rationally be a miller in this game.

Do you see any downside to this suggestion? (Forewarning: I do)

The forewarning basically tells PF that there's a "right" answer, and you get a cookie for thinking like me. In fact, this seems to be an odd way to scumhunt. I know that's totally not what I'd do with this situation, which would be to point out the flaw and see how he reacts.

Oh, and for those paying attention at home, I treat death millers the same way.

I'm somewhat afraid to ask what experience you have with Death Millers.

So what do you think of the stuff going on that doesn't have to do with the Miller claim?

That's a rather benign question with a ton of open-endedness.




So, reading over it again, I felt I was right to do that IGMEOY on Vi, and from that point on, she seemed to stop using these kinds of NLP tactics. I let my guard down by shifting to PokerFace just for the questionnaire, when it turns out I had the right idea in the first place. I suppose I got mixed up with all the walls going up and forgot what I'd originally thought. Looking back over it though (which I really should have done instead of stopping when I found that PF did the questionnaire), I remember what set me off in the first place.

[forbiddanlight]

I'm...about to piss Jahudo off.

I REALLY wanted to be in this game, but work is far too brutally consuming my time to continue this. I'm going to ask for replacement in a couple other games I recently started probably, though I'm going to have to see what I can cut first. For now I'll probably not even be starting that many new games while I'm working all the time.

So...tl;dr...I'm REALLY sorry Jahudo, and I want you to know I will try to make it up for you in the future...but I need replacement.

[Jahudo]

Okay. I hope you work out your work.
I'll start looking for a replacement for forbiddanlight

[Vi]

It came up because we're addressing all possibilities.

As mentioned before, I think there's a point where the discussion about what could be out there loses relevance. We passed it a page or two ago.

Re: Towniness of Gorrad and Rhinox - <_< I think something's being lost in translation. How

secure

is your read on these two; that is, how willing would you be to change your mind?

Re: Juls coasting to endgame as Miller -

People agree with me, good for them. Juls didn't know how people would react to her claim when she made it though, and that's why I'm mistrustful of it. It has the potential to guarantee a free ride to endgame with a different player set.

This is the source of this discussion. This is why I'm asking what you know of this player set, and what you know of Juls. I'll explain more below, but the gist of it is that if there were ever a player set where Juls would NOT be able to pull one over on the Town and expect to get away with it, it would be this one.

What continues to bother me is that you continue to attribute suspicion on Juls to "standard paranoia", which seems like you're not quite up to judging her alignment as if the Miller claim wasn't there in the first place... which I recall being your position in #4.

Re: IGMEOY - It's not a scumtell, but I have come to see FoS as... well, pointless. If you're suspicious of someone, it should show through your posts (see below, again). As to it being a scumtell, I wouldn't class it as one unless it's abused.

To head off the objection, IGMEOY is not FoS, and the clarification you provided is helpful. Nonetheless, see the second sentence above.

Re: Not asking you about what you think of people - I pay attention to your posts. You're not focusing on one person out of eleven, which is usually my cue to ask. The succinct summaries are helpful though.

I find it strange that she doesn't voice any suspicion of me until her last post, where I'm "Scummy, leaning neutral" and then goes on to say her opinion hasn't changed since her last post.

If I'm quoting you a lot and there's more than a joke under it, I'm probably curious about you. Context, etc.

-----

Re: Zilla 184 - That's actually a reasonably fair assessment. I was chosen to play this game for a reason, and I accepted for a reason as well. I know these people - Jahudo, Rhinox, VP Baltar, f-light, Juls, to a lesser extent ShadowGirl and PokerFace, etc. - and I like playing with them. They know me; I know them. However, I don't know you. From that perspective, I can understand why it would seem like I was buddying left and right early on.

To answer for ShadowGirl, potentially yes. This could be an attempt to lead town where you want them to go. Not to mention these questions are very benign.

It's

Page 1

; what did you expect?
As far as "an attempt to lead Town where I want them to go", is this suspicion still valid?

The forewarning basically tells PF that there's a "right" answer, and you get a cookie for thinking like me. In fact, this seems to be an odd way to scumhunt. I know that's totally not what I'd do with this situation, which would be to point out the flaw and see how he reacts.

Hm... That's legitimate.

That's a rather benign question with a ton of open-endedness.

Yet any answer would have been more interesting than what she had said so far.

----

@f-light: Take care of yourself, and don't worry about us. ^-^

[hohum]

/confirm replacement.

Giving the thread a cursory read now.

[Jahudo]

hohum replaces forbiddanlight.

[Juls]

Starting over from page 1, I will try not to be redundant.

Pokerface has fished for flavor twice by post 39. I don't know what this is going to accomplish. Charlatan also wants flavor.

I'm still mistrustful of something that potentially guarantees a free ride to end game, no matter what meta lies behind it.

I certainly don't want a free ride. If at any point we are in a situation where my being around is going to prevent us from finding scum, please lynch me. I get that mafia is a team game. I also certainly should not survive into a lylo situation because it could possibly cost us the victory.

Zilla, do you agree that there are several methods of play when it comes to the miller role and one of them is to claim in the first post? If so, why the strong mistrust without anything else to go on?

Were I playing the miller, frankly, I don't think right now that I'd claim it Day 1. I'd be happy to get killed off at night.

I think claiming miller early has more pros than cons:
1) I am an excellent target for a compulsive vig with nothing else to go on. (And I highly encourage it on N1 if you aren't 80% sure you are hitting scum)

2) Cops don't waste their investigation on me.

3) It stops the WIFOM later.

4) Cop doesn't out themselves unnecessarily (someone else mentioned this one but its a good point)

I'm slightly concerned over the bravado behind Vi's actions. She's being quite proactive, but that's also a great spot for scum to be. I'm particularly interested in how she has been targetting certain players with certain questions. It gives the illusion of being really organized, or the appearance of having some kind of "master plan" for finding scum, which builds unwarranted town trust. Furthermore, the hyper-directed approach allows her to ask "safe" questions to scumbuddies while still appearing to grill them.

Have you played in games with Vi before where she has not been proactive? I personally have played a couple games with her and going on only two cases there was no question she was town in the game she was town and it was nearly impossible to combat (I was scum in both, she was my scumbuddy in the first). I admit, it's hard for me to see her from a potential different side as I knew her alignment in those two games. I don't find her play thus far to be screaming town (thats not to say scummy either) at this point but it is early and my ears are certainly up when reading her.

Juls: please share your thoughts and expectations. Do you see any way that your claim/role can benefit town?

See up a few paragraphs.

several means "more than two".

Deja vu. Hard Nights in the City come to mind...

i am skeptical of meta arguments in general. you pointed to her play in a specific way and stated that it was what led you to believe her claim.

I am not a big believer in 2nd-hand meta (gaining meta from games you weren't yourself a member of). There are too many variables that you don't feel when you are not in a game first hand. That said, I think don_johnson, Vi, and Rhinox are about the only people in this game who can speak of a meta on me. Even then, I have never been a miller with any of them.

V-LA or not, her absence is disconcerting. I can't help but feel her not-posting is a safe thing for her to do right now, regardless of outside circumstances. It could be a helpful coincidence, but Vi says she's still Mish-mashing, which means she ought to at least drop a few posts in here. Not that I can REALLY blame her since this game is pretty intense (there's about 5 different topics floating around).

I will fully admit this game is a bit intimidating to me. I am in an "all eyes on me" type situation with a pretty stellar player list. I am doing the best I can. I also typically can't keep up tit for tat with wall posts and usually do them from time to time with some short responses if I am sitting at my computer while the conversation is going on. When I come home to huge amounts of content between now and my previous post I feel the need to write a wall post and it takes some effort to get up for that. It is much easier to respond in short answer to my other games. BUt I am not going to give up on this or anything.

Basically, if mafia are already given safe claims, the character claim won't do much of anything. If not, it could potentially cause a contradiction, and potentially help mafia with flavor, depending on Juls' alignment. I'm in favor of claiming character.

The first two sentences and the third seem contradictory. Clarify?

how can she make a judgment of relative experience a player has in the game of mafia without knowing more about said player? i.e. sg claims to have very little knowledge of juls play in order to defend herself against the "meta" argument, but somehow knows enough about juls to use her experience level to make a determination about whether or not she would run a scum gambit.

Don, your delivery seems protown but your argument is off. SG pretty much fencesitted like everyone else except that she said 1) she thinks me to suck (yeah I know not that word but I am bitter), and 2) she replaced me in that game so she can see my claiming in first post. In her defense (begrudgingly), the insane asylum game lasted about 4-5 months. Being that it just recently ended she probably still feels that I am pretty much a noob and wouldn't be capable of such a gambit.

Among those of us who are familiar with the show, it's probably occurred to others (as it has to me) that there's no obvious character one might expect to see attached to a miller role.

I have little experience with such a thing but from everything I have seen, mods frown on tieing a themed role to its actual character type (e.g. making Barney Fyfe a paranoid cop) because it allows people to game the mod. I played a marathon Batman where the Batman was scum and the Joker was town. I am sure this is not always the rule but I would guess more times than not mods try to avoid it. That said, I understand now VP's reason for asking the question.

Did you just skim the thread or something, because I don't understand why you're taking this as an attack towards you?

It was frustration at all the comments of my lack of play and you just happened to be the one it exploded on.

All in all, Juls 109 seems more hostile/overdefensive/aggressive/abrasive/etc. than I'm used to seeing from her in any game, town or scum. I'm not sure what to make of it yet, but its definately something I'm going to be keeping my eye on.

Please explain how to defend my claim without comming across as agressive or defensive. I am standing by it. I am not going to have happen to me in this game what happened in Insane Asylum which was to put my tail between my legs and cower down. I am better than that now.

Further, I charge that this is the most defensive game I have ever been in and its only page 8.

---------

Ugh...Pokerface's 156 is full of more of these What do you think of this, What do you think of that type questions. These questions are only useful if you make some sort of judgements based on the answers. It may just be your style of play but I am not really getting good vibes from it.

I think I feel where he's coming from here, that last wall of text of his diffused some of my suspicions. I don't agree with him, and think he's assuming other people think the same way he does and if they don't, they're not town, but I think I understand his mindset. Further, aside from that original questionnaire, he hasn't done anything in the same vein that props up a false reason to trust someone.

For a moment there I thought Zilla and I were on the same page. Clearly we have opposite opinions now because I don't "see where" pokerface is coming from. I see a lot of questions without a lot of followup.

@Zilla...did you quote VP Baltar in your 162 because you wanted me to answer if I have seen Cowboy Bebop or not? I have answered this twice.

----------
don_johnson 162 seems to just be piggy backing what Rhinox said.

Bad things happen at mafiascum.net!
That program is hilarious for how condescending it is.

Actually I have never tried. We have very explicit instructions not to play games at work and this certainly qualifies as a game. When I have school I usually pop into the computer lab for a quick read but I am out of school at the moment.

Which... doesn't answer the original question.
Let me get to the point. In some Theme games, if every player doesn't have a named character attached, more often than not named characters are power roles or scum.

In addition, why is it necessary to elaborate on your softclaim?

Two reasons. I wanted to bring out the fact that I don't have a name character and PF does. This gives everyone the opportunity to look at their own role and make a judgement about which one they feel falls more in line with what they have. I think PF could have possibly made a scum slip (and charlatan as well when he said the same thing). And if it ever happens that we get a scum flip that IS a name and all town flips are roles then we know where to look.

Second, I want town to know that there is more to my role than just miller and just because I have claimed it doesn't mean I have told scum to give me a free ride to the end of the game.

I admit I am committed to my claim now and I am going to play a little bolder than I typically would because it's somewhat liberating.

.....end of page 7. I just can't do page 8. I am tired of reading. I will do it tomorrow. This has taken me a good 3 hours as it is. I'm so tired of reading I don't even want to proof myself.

OK so quick skim shows that PF hasn't posted on page 8 anyway so I feel comfortable with a

Unvote, Vote: PF

. I would like more from Zeenon too because his vote without elaboration has not gone unnoticed. Also, IGMEOY charlatan if PF turns out to be scum.

[Zilla]

Re: Gorrad and Rhinox:

If they do something that shows they have the capacity to fake that kind of exchange, or if there's circumstantial evidence that points them to be scum, or if their demeanor aside from that indicates scum, I'll change my tune about them.

What continues to bother me is that you continue to attribute suspicion on Juls to "standard paranoia", which seems like you're not quite up to judging her alignment as if the Miller claim wasn't there in the first place... which I recall being your position in #4.

I don't get your angle here, in that I don't think I've let my mistrust of her miller claim influence my read on her alignment.

Juls - Needs more information. I don't trust her claim. She needs to answer Vi's question regarding why she thought claiming early was good with something better than "I was thinking out loud." So far, she seems to be playing rather defensively

You're not focusing on one person out of eleven, which is usually my cue to ask.

What do you call my case on Pokerface? Or FL?

As far as "an attempt to lead Town where I want them to go", is this suspicion still valid?

Less so after I called you out on it. You seem to be playing for yourself more now, as opposed to looking like you're playing for the whole town like you were before.

Zilla, do you agree that there are several methods of play when it comes to the miller role and one of them is to claim in the first post? If so, why the strong mistrust without anything else to go on?

I have a much more organic approach to mafia. I don't treat it like a game of chess, where there are "valid" plays and inherent rules about how to play each role. Mafia isn't about the roles, it's about the people with those roles. There's never a universally correct play, and there's never a universally incorrect play. Your ploy as claiming in your first post seems quite hasty, as there's nothing to judge whether that's a good or bad play to work with yet. It seems strange and out-of-step with what's logical, so then I have to question "why would you do that?" The scum motivation comes to mind a lot more easily than the town motivation. Scum stands to gain a ton more than town in that position. To think that it must be sincere because attempting something like that with this player base is suicide strikes me as wrong, because clearly, attempting something like that with this player base isn't suicide, because they all think that it would be suicide.

Long story short, I see it as a potential play as much as I see claiming as a cop and hoping there's a bodyguard. It's an odd stance to take, and you've become untouchable. If you're scum, PO's won't want to waste an investigation on you, vigs probably won't want to waste a kill on you (though this might actually be the best course of action), and people don't want to lynch you. If you're not scum (and this is the good part), mafia won't touch you either because you're still a candidate for suspicion or because you've claimed to be a non-threatening role.

Short story even shorter: It makes the most sense to me if it's a scum gambit.

The first two sentences and the third seem contradictory. Clarify?

The potential gains from flavor-claiming are catching you in a contradiction. The potential losses are negligible flavor education for those who want to fake it later. I think this information is more useful to town than to scum; hence I support character claiming.

@Zilla...did you quote VP Baltar in your 162 because you wanted me to answer if I have seen Cowboy Bebop or not? I have answered this twice.

No, FL was confused about which question we were talking about, so I pointed out the question for her.

For a moment there I thought Zilla and I were on the same page. Clearly we have opposite opinions now because I don't "see where" pokerface is coming from. I see a lot of questions without a lot of followup.

I got the impression his suspicions were based on people not playing like he wanted them to play like. As I said, I think he's being close-minded about the whole thing, but not necessarily scum for it. I'll be watching his response to your questioning though.

[don_johnson]

juls: i am confused. you said earlier that there is more to your role and that it is why you don't want to flavor claim(which i understand), no?

then why are you saying this:

I am an excellent target for a compulsive vig with nothing else to go on. (And I highly encourage it on N1 if you aren't 80% sure you are hitting scum)

if you are town and there is more to your role, how can it be good for a town pr to get vigged? please clarify this stance. post 190 is extremely wifomic in that regard. i find the statements contained there-in to be very anti-town.

[VP Baltar]

VP Baltar - He seems to be reserved this game, very carefully picking his targets. Most of his arguments seem to be focused intently on smallish things. I wouldn't call him a bad player, but so far, it seems rather ineffective. I'm going to say not-enough-information to accurately judge him,, with a slight feeling of scum because he hasn't been as out there as he should be.

I'm reserved this game compared to what?
What "biggish" things have I missed or should be commenting on?
What has given you a "slight feeling of scum" regarding my play compared to the several other people you list as needing to post more?

On a side note: both Zilla and Vi need to relax a bit on the giant walls of text, imo. You two are sort of smothering this game by getting into protracted discussions on every single thing that happens. It's a bit of a turnoff when I log onto this game and see two pages with huge walls I have to back track through arguments across the game and try to keep them straight in my head. I think there needs to be a bit more discretion on what you two think is most important, and focus on that. Succinctness is pro-town. I prefer to focus on discussing a few players at a time because I think it yields much better results than having six or seven arguments to keep straight in your head. It might be a difference in playstyle, but I think it is more effective because you don't get "distracted" by a million lines of questioning.

Moving on:

I'm starting to get a read of belligerent town on don johnson. I don't like how he keeps saying that everyone is misrepping him at pretty much every turn, but my gut says that scum wouldn't be so accusatory this early in the game. That being said, I think he's dwelled a long time on the miller thing and it's time to move on.

@D_J-Beyond ShadowGirl, who would be your second choice for a lynch today and why?

@Zilla-Why are you constantly speaking for me? I have noticed it several times, and must say that the mother I was born with is more than enough. Reading back, I also see you have done it for some other players as well. I have had it happen in other games where scum buddy up to me, and I don't like it at all.

Pokerface has fished for flavor twice by post 39.

You mean from just you, correct?

I am in an "all eyes on me" type situation with a pretty stellar player list.

This struck me as a bit strange. I think I understand where you are coming from, but in spite of the miller claim I actually don't feel like 'all eyes have been on you'. If anything, I think you've received very little direct questioning over the claim. It's not much, but I know that scum sometimes over estimate the amount of suspicion they are under.

In other news,

Vote Pokerface

I still want to hear some further explanation on why you laid off Juls so easy when you brought up the idea of flavour claiming first (my post in 166 is specifically what I'm referring to). Also, your play in the first few pages of this game is very different from what it is now that the suspicion ball is rolling on other players.

[Vi]

You're not

solely

focusing on one person

(or fewer)

out of eleven, which is usually my cue to ask.

What do you call my case on Pokerface? Or FL?

Edited.

-----

Your ploy as claiming in your first post seems quite hasty, as there's nothing to judge whether that's a good or bad play to work with yet.

It seems strange and out-of-step with what's logical,

so then I have to question "why would you do that?" The scum motivation comes to mind a lot more easily than the town motivation. Scum stands to gain a ton more than town in that position. To think that it must be sincere because attempting something like that with this player base is suicide strikes me as wrong, because clearly, attempting something like that with this player base isn't suicide, because they all think that it would be suicide.

And I disagree with this assessment, and particularly want to know why you believe the bolded given site meta.

Long story short, I see it as a potential play as much as I see claiming as a cop and hoping there's a bodyguard. It's an odd stance to take, and you've become untouchable. If you're scum, PO's won't want to waste an investigation on you, vigs probably won't want to waste a kill on you (though this might actually be the best course of action), and

people don't want to lynch you.

If you're not scum (and this is the good part), mafia won't touch you either because you're still a candidate for suspicion or because you've claimed to be a non-threatening role.

Therein lies the disagreement.
That's the whole point of the "not letting people get a free ride to endgame".

Short story even shorter: It makes the most sense to me if it's a scum gambit.

To contrast, NOT claiming is a Town gambit - and unless you can play very pro-Town like PokerFace suggests, not a very good one. Based on site meta, nobody will believe someone who claims Miller reactively. Your choices are to either invite this sort of suspicion on yourself by claiming, or try to get NKd before you get semirandomly quicklynched.

Have I mentioned recently how much I dislike the Cop role?

---

Succinctness is pro-town.

Twoo. Apologies; I know how it feels.

That being said, I think he's dwelled a long time on the miller thing and it's time to move on.

@D_J-Beyond ShadowGirl, who would be your second choice for a lynch today and why?

also this

[Juls]

You mean from just you, correct?

Yes of course.

This struck me as a bit strange. I think I understand where you are coming from, but in spite of the miller claim I actually don't feel like 'all eyes have been on you'. If anything, I think you've received very little direct questioning over the claim. It's not much, but I know that scum sometimes over estimate the amount of suspicion they are under.

By this I mean I am the center of attention (or I was until the last couple of pages). The questions may not be directed at me but it feels like I am in a room full of people that are whispering about me. Which is expected given my claim but intimidating given this group. That is why I failed at Insane Asylum because I was intimidated by the people asking me questions.

[don_johnson]

@D_J-Beyond ShadowGirl, who would be your second choice for a lynch today and why?

gorrad, vp, vi, juls(yeah, i said it)... take your pick. its day one.

i won't bother bolding the misreps, but someone said i was "piggybacking rhinox' case on gorrad. if i was, vi wouldn't have been upset with me. if anyone was "piggybacking" rhinox' case it was vi. my reasoning for questioning gorrad was because of his "plan to test the cops sanity" and how it conflicted with the "common" existence of the godfather role.

also, it seems as though everyone is focusing on the wrong part of my post concerning gorrad. i pointed out that the first "contradiction" i mentioned wasn't even likely a contradiction and that it wasn't much, but my detractors seem to be focusing on that as though i was trying to push something based off of it. case in point: my vote is still on shadowgirl. gorrad, juls, and sg all have yet to answer my inquiries.

but yeah. its day one. so i'm okay lynching any one of quite a few of you.

[Juls]

don, answering your "inquiries" in post 192 would reveal even more about my role to scum so I will not be answering it. I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here to understand why what you are asking is anti-town but part of me wants to believe its scum fishing for more information.

But what's with the hositility/bulling in the following quote? You seem angry at me and I am not sure why.

gorrad, vp, vi, juls

(yeah, i said it)

... take your pick. its day one.

[Juls]

EBWOP: bulling = bullying

[Vi]

@deej: Why me?