Mini 783: Cowboy Bebop Mafia - Game Over, Space Cowboy

[hohum]

@Mod: definitely in favor of an extension

[Rhinox]

Wouldn't wishy-washy mean I wasn't taking a stand or had my mind divided? No. I believe Juls. As for the vig thing? She tried to draw NKs. Vigs, scumkills...I see no evidence against trying to draw them both.

It means you're playing both sides. You say you believe Juls, but you also say you think claiming UNK is one of the most common scum claims.

I think the fact that she asked to be vig killed is evidence that she was only trying to draw a vig kill I don't think scum would try to kill miller-juls if they think a vig might hit her, and they definately won't now that juls claim to be UNK for tonight. Juls is pretty much forcing us into a position where we'll have to lynch her eventually.

[Xtoxm]

Then we may aswell do it today.

And we're not lynching PF, he's town.

[Jahudo]

hohum's V/LA is noted.

[Zilla]

Woah. Everything I said in defense of Gorrad is negated by his play since my last post. I was going off his early day play, up through his spat with VP, which looked town to me. Now, he's pretty irrefutably scummy.

Juls pretty much made herself a null target for mafia by claiming a miller in a way that was rather suspicious. Mafia would rather not care about millers when there are more important town roles to hunt for, and further, she asked to be vigged if they weren't 80% sure. And Gorrad's asserting that she was trying to draw any nightkill? Read the thread.

If it comes down to it, I'm now in support of lynching Gorrad. Hohum needs to weigh in, seriously.

[Xtoxm]

That's 4 who would support Gorr lynch, now.

[don_johnson]

And we're not lynching PF, he's town.

[Xtoxm]

DJ - Opinion on Gorrad?

[don_johnson]

scummy.

explain your take on pf.

[Xtoxm]

Meta, feel, his actions around me. I'm certain he's town.

[Gorrad]

Hmm. I didn't think to take into account the miller part. That does look bad. It doesn't really match up with my theory. In fact, it kinda reverses it.

I'll let her have a say in this. Juls, give us

decisive evidence

that trying to draw the vig kill was protown.

Jeez, too much Ace Attorney...

[Juls]

I think the fact that she asked to be vig killed is evidence that she was only trying to draw a vig kill I don't think scum would try to kill miller-juls if they think a vig might hit her, and they definately won't now that juls claim to be UNK for tonight. Juls is pretty much forcing us into a position where we'll have to lynch her eventually.

1) There is no guarantee there is a vigilante. If there is, I was trying to protect a misvig.

2) Scum weren't going to kill me anyway because of the miller claim. So trying to draw a scum night kill wasn't going to do much good. So I could be the most protown player in the game and it wouldn't matter unless I had them pegged out of the gate.

3) I have done nothing short of ASK to be lynched and nightkilled if in a bind or we are unsure. Why would I sacrifice myself in this manner if I were scum? If I were scum, and I died...what would I have gained?

4) You setting up a mislynch is noted.

Unvote. Vote: Rhinox

Mod: I am for an extension

[Gorrad]

1. Wow. No. That doesn't work. Misvig>no vig N1 IMHO.

2. Ok, this is fine.

3. WIFOM, and you can't be bloody NK'd N1, so that doesn't work here.

4. ALSO does not work. If that passed as logic, then anyone could OMGUS that any vote on them is an attempt at a mislynch.

Unvote, Vote: Juls

[Juls]

Just lynch me...I really don't feel like sitting through this bull shit again. I am a terrible player....I don't match any of your superior talents...stroke your egos some more.

Unvote, Vote: Juls

ohhhhh....a self vote...how scummy of me.

[Juls]

Actually...

Unvote

Please tell me if you intend on lynching me or not so I can get a replacement if not. You guys need to evaluate if you think I am just a shitty player or if I am scummy. I appreciate the game of mafia but I have come to the realization that I enjoy it more from the audience than playing.

[ZEEnon]

I don't want Juls lynched.

[Jahudo]

You know what happens to people who go against the syndicate, right?

No, that's why we're playing this game.

Vote Count #9 of Day 1

Hohum – charlatan, Zilla
Juls – Xtoxm, Gorrad
charlatan- ZEEnon
PokerFace – Vi
Xtoxm – hohum
Gorrad - VP Baltar

Not Voting –PokerFace, Rhinox, don_johnson, Juls


With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch!

NEW

: Day 1 deadline will now be Friday May 22nd at noon EST.

[Vi]

Now that I have my computer back, I can reread these last few pages the way I want to, and... it looks like I have some new stuff to read.

Even when she's on offense Juls seems to be on defense. I need to look at her reasons for voting PokerFace again (reread: Is it just based on the nameclaim thing?). Of all the ways to go about disputing a D1 Mason claim, I think Juls' way is one of the most sketchy. I disagree with Xtoxm 465, but I don't think he's anti-Town for saying it.

The counterpoint is that I don't think I've seen ZEEnon so active in this game up until now. Someone who's only active when under scrutiny isn't very comforting. Why does ZEEnon vote charlatan for the sake of "changing the subject"?

Why the hell would I claim mason as scum? It's just about the worst claim for scum to make.

Except... it's really not. See Juls 495.

I agree with PokerFace 459 against Gorrad. Blaming bad play on policy/playstyle is one of my worst things to see in a game.
What I don't see in 459 is a clear direction of who PokerFace thinks is scummy/focusing on. VP Baltar maybe? You're not voting anyone, if the vote count is any indication.

Zilla 485 seems like a generic summarypost wherein she expresses bad opinions of everyone around and says little that's all that insightful. Responding to Zilla 491 - Your posting style has been suspect. Since you don't have your V/LA in your sig I can't tell if you're on it or not, but recently you seem to just be flowing with the crowd, slipping under the radar - somewhat disturbing considering the walls the two of us were putting together earlier.

Vi - (...) What do you make of Juls reaction to the claim?

It's pretty scummy. I think ZEEnon is overdoing the accusations, though. And Juls 495 actually does have a valid point to it (note to self: Try this later... oh wait, I usually AM a Neighbor to obvscum <_< ). Also, Xtoxm 497 bites - as nearly all self-meta arguments do. At the end of the day, I think everyone's just being catty about the whole affair.

Rhinox 494 is weak. So is 505. Rhinox's recent posts have just seemed really sparse and weak recently; it's not what I'd expect of him. I would be more than willing to wagon Rhinox, as mentioned in my previous post.

charlatan, are you still in favor of a hohum lynch?

@mod: I'd like a deadline extension.

Cut.

Woah. Everything I said in defense of Gorrad is negated by his play since my last post. I was going off his early day play, up through his spat with VP, which looked town to me. Now, he's pretty irrefutably scummy.

Woah. Total 180 to the popular lynch. Seriously, what changed your mind?

Juls is pretty much forcing us into a position where we'll have to lynch her eventually.

Wait, what!?

Hey ZEEtoxm, what are your flavor names?

------

I will be shocked - nay, astounded - if both of Rhinox and Zilla are Town. All of the existing wagons are lame, except maybe the charlatan and PokerFace ones.

Unvote: PokerFace
Vote: Rhinox

(L-6)

[Rhinox]

1) There is no guarantee there is a vigilante. If there is, I was trying to protect a misvig.

Theres nothing wrong with a misvig on N1. A smart vig would take out someone scummy/worthless anyways, which could prevent a D2 or later mislynch, and increase out D2 odds for finding scum by making the pool of players smaller. Miskills become potential problems in later days/nights.

2) Scum weren't going to kill me anyway because of the miller claim. So trying to draw a scum night kill wasn't going to do much good. So I could be the most protown player in the game and it wouldn't matter unless I had them pegged out of the gate.

Maybe you're saying scum weren't going to kill you because you're actually scum? Anyways, even after claiming miller, if you'd have been the most protown player in the game so that everyone beleived you, then you wouldn't be under threat of a lynch, and mafia would be more likely to nk you then. I know, easier said than done though.

3) I have done nothing short of ASK to be lynched and nightkilled if in a bind or we are unsure. Why would I sacrifice myself in this manner if I were scum? If I were scum, and I died...what would I have gained?

So you're asking to be vigged or lynched, but then turn around and say you'd

never

do that if you were scum, so you must be town... and then we

shouldn't

lynch or vig you? Self sacrifices only work when they actually occur. Offering to be sacrificed means nothing.

4) You setting up a mislynch is noted.

So you're basically asking to be lynched, as you claim above, but when people talk about lynching you, you think its scummy?

Just lynch me...I really don't feel like sitting through this bull shit again. I am a terrible player....I don't match any of your superior talents...stroke your egos some more.

There is really no need for this... its just a game.

--------------------------------------------------------

Rhinox 494 is weak. So is 505. Rhinox's recent posts have just seemed really sparse and weak recently; it's not what I'd expect of him. I would be more than willing to wagon Rhinox, as mentioned in my previous post.

Well is there anything that I haven't commented on that you would like to hear something from me? Claiming that my posts are weak without any explanation is rather... well, weak.

Juls is pretty much forcing us into a position where we'll have to lynch her eventually.

Wait, what!?

Whats the big problem with this statement? is it the lynch part, or the eventually part? Re: the lynch part, she claimed miller, she asked to be vig and then admitted it would have been a waste, and she hasn't exactly been handling the pressure that comes with claiming miller D1 in a very pro-town way at all. We also can't count on a vig or mafia taking out juls even if she is town, because no one but juls knows the extent of when she's commuting. I could guess odd-nights, but thats just a guess. Anyways, this is a player that is a liability to the town and one that pretty much has to be lynched. The eventually part means sometime before we get into LyLo. I'd support a juls lynch today, but there are a number of other lynches I'd support as well, namely Hohum and Gorrad.

I will be shocked - nay, astounded - if both of Rhinox and Zilla are Town.

All of the existing wagons are lame

, except maybe the charlatan and PokerFace ones.
Unvote: PokerFace
Vote: Rhinox (L-6)

Thats a pretty slick false dilemna you snuck in there.

The part I bolded also seems a little hypocritical - there is currently a wagon on Juls, and in 2 separate instances in 542 you stated how you felt juls was acting scummy, so why now say you think the wagon on her is lame? Also, claiming that the pokerface wagon is *not lame* seems odd coming from someone jumping off the wagon...

[Gorrad]

Just lynch me...I really don't feel like sitting through this bull shit again. I am a terrible player....I don't match any of your superior talents...stroke your egos some more.

There is really no need for this... its just a game.

QFT.

[VP Baltar]

@ Gorrad, can you tell me which post yours in 428 was in reply to? I looked to see if there was a particular post you were replying to to corroborate your "missed the mason claim" story, and I'm not seeing it. Even if it was late and you were skimming the thread, I'd think the words "confirmed mason" (mentioned in more than one post) would pop out to you.

3. WIFOM, and you can't be bloody NK'd N1, so that doesn't work here.

While it was WIFOM, she was talking about being lynched not NK'd.

I can't say I'm a fan of Gorrad's change of heart on Juls when pressured. It seems a bit easy to flop to a wagon that is gaining steam.

That being said...

Just lynch me...I really don't feel like sitting through this bull shit again.

This is ridiculous. As Rhinox said, it's just a game. This completely came out of nowhere for me, and I hate stuff like that. It's not inherently scummy, but it does make the game a lot less fun.

I don't want Juls lynched.

orly?

I would rather lynch one of them on a coin flip and only trust the other one if their alignment checks out.

If we are going to lynch anyone to see if they are real I think the best lynch would be you.

Lynching the miller is sounding like a good idea.

If anyone wants to lynch Juls, I will now willingly go on her wagon, as opposed to before.

Both of you have called me town as a statement of fact.

More lies please.

So what I am asking is no different than what you are asking except there are pros to what I am asking.

You are

seriously

saying there are

good

things about lynching town?
You are saying that lynching a useless miller is

bad

?

No you are saying we should lynch me and I am town. You are the one saying we should lynch a townie. I am saying lets lynch your scum buddy Xtoxm (or you...I'm not picky). I am not useless, there is more to my role than just miller.

Miss Representation. That is your new name.
Because you

MISREPRESENT

everything I say.
I never said we SHOULD lynch you. I said I am open to a lynch on you.
In which posts of mine did I

push

a lynch on you?
Hell, I don't know if you are town so what garbage can did you dig out of to find that I thought you were town?
So you are saying that you are not

just

a miller?

Juls claiming miller early on is pro-town for the most part.

Preforming an

action

that is pro-town is

FAR

different than being town.

That is every post you had in relation to Juls before saying you didn't want her lynched. Why the sudden change of heart? Looks to me like you are trying to distance yourself from a wagon gaining steam in the event Juls flips town. But I suppose this falls under your and Xtoxm's outstanding town play so far this game.

Why does ZEEnon vote charlatan for the sake of "changing the subject"?

This.

Total 180 to the popular lynch. Seriously, what changed your mind?

This.

Hey ZEEtoxm, what are your flavor names?

And this.

All of the existing wagons are lame, except maybe the charlatan and PokerFace ones.

Actually, I think the charlatan wagon is probably the weakest so far in the game. I haven't seen really any anti-town behaviour from him, and I don't remember a clear cut case. Why do you think he would be lynch worthy?

My thoughts on Pokerface are pending his next post (which he seems to be conveniently avoiding while is very actively posting in Discussion and Mish Mash forums).

[VP Baltar]

EBWOP:

mod-I may be V/LA until Monday morning (May 18)

[Vi]

First thing, I think Juls' approach to "confirming" the Commuter part of her role was rather bad. Then again, I can't think of a good way to do it offhand.

-----

Well is there anything that I haven't commented on that you would like to hear something from me? Claiming that my posts are weak without any explanation is rather... well, weak.

I think I need to take some time to reread. I think hohum and gorrad are scummy as hell, so the fact that no one else seems to agree with me tells me either 1 of 2 things are happening: 1) I'm right, but I'm not getting any support because other scum aren't helping the wagon along and I haven't managed to convince the town players yet, or 2) I'm completely wrong, other town players don't find them at all scummy and scum aren't pushing the wagons now because they would be more opportunistic mislynches later in the game. Either way, pursuing a lynch on either hohum or gorrad right now feels like trying to run in water, so I might as well go look somewhere else.

This is the best scumhunting in post 494 (I don't consider role-based discussion to be scumhunting). But there's a glaring problem with this - at the time of your unvote,

hohum was the leading wagon

. Zilla just got done saying that her vote was going to STAY on hohum. Incidentally, what IS your opinion on Zilla? Go for VP Baltar, too, but I've already seen your thought on the Zilla/VP Baltar interaction.

Its basically just the claiming that he hasn't done anything usefu so no one should have a town read on him, the calling himself town a couple times when it should just be assumed that everyone considers themselves town, the emotional back and forth beteen him and xtoxm, and the whole lynch me and if I show up as town then x is scum. Maybe AtE isn't exactly the right term. Idk, I always though referring to yourself flipping town and saying things like "well I haven't really done anything useful" to be AtEs.

Anyways, I'm not really putting that much weight into it because I don't believe AtE is a scum tell.

Wait, you unvoted hohum because nobody else was interested in him (false), but now you're saying that one of his more bizarre actions in attempting to scumhunt isn't a scumtell? It seems like you're artificially backing off.
ftr, I don't see it as an Appeal to Emotion. Read it for what it is, an admission that his play's been horrible and a challenge to someone who said otherwise without backing it up. I'd say something similar in hohum's situation

Do you think VP Baltar is scummy for suggesting that a Cop should investigate the Masons? What about Zilla, charlatan, etc.

Why aren't you voting?

Whats the big problem with this statement? is it the lynch part, or the eventually part? Re: the lynch part, she claimed miller, she asked to be vig and then admitted it would have been a waste, and she hasn't exactly been handling the pressure that comes with claiming miller D1 in a very pro-town way at all. We also can't count on a vig or mafia taking out juls even if she is town, because no one but juls knows the extent of when she's commuting. I could guess odd-nights, but thats just a guess.

Anyways, this is a player that is a liability to the town and one that pretty much has to be lynched. The eventually part means sometime before we get into LyLo.

I'd support a juls lynch today, but there are a number of other lynches I'd support as well, namely Hohum and Gorrad.

What you're describing here is a

policy lynch

, which I am quite against. It would appear that you don't find Juls suspicious enough to push for her lynch (rather saying you would be for it if it happened), which suggests that you don't find her relatively scummy - you only want her dead for her role, which in my experience hasn't hit scum yet. Last, "sometime before we get into LyLo" is probably

tomorrow

and will put us

into

LyLo. You'd like that, wouldn't you~

Thats a pretty slick false dilemna you snuck in there.

Policy lynches and false dilemmas. I haven't seen these arguments since... actually, the last time you were Mafia. Thinking about it, they're actually pretty good scum arguments; I've got to remember them for when/if I ever get a Mafia PM in a Newbie game.
For the sake of entertaining the audience, though, how is this different from saying "X is scum and so is Y"? I'm up for lynching either of you, with no guarantees of being right but being sure enough of myself to say I would be shocked-nay-astounded if I'm wrong. I see nothing wrong.

The part I bolded also seems a little hypocritical - there is currently a wagon on Juls, and in 2 separate instances in 542 you stated how you felt juls was acting scummy, so why now say you think the wagon on her is lame? Also, claiming that the pokerface wagon is *not lame* seems odd coming from someone jumping off the wagon...

Juls is acting scummy, true. I'm reading Town who doesn't know how to play her role. And you appear to be thinking along the same lines.

@Juls: I'm glad you decided to claim now rather than after a failed vig attempt, but now I wish you hadn't asked to be vigged at all. How were you expecting that to work out? Claiming commuter after a failed vig attempt is about the same thing as claiming miller after being investigated, or asking to be investigated when you're a GF. I wouldn't believe communter after that happened, I'd be more inclined to think UNK sk or UNK GF. And if you really are a miller, if mafia was even thinking about nking you tonight, they aren't now.

This reads like you believe Juls' Miller claim.
I'm unvoting PokerFace to vote someone that I feel is more likely to be scum. This doesn't clear him by any means. This isn't rocket surgery or even brain science.

-----

Actually, I think the charlatan wagon is probably the weakest so far in the game. I haven't seen really any anti-town behaviour from him, and I don't remember a clear cut case. Why do you think he would be lynch worthy?

Intuition plays a part in it, and his attention has still been narrowly focused. He said he's going to post when he can, so I'll wait and see what he has to say about nothohum. But it is one of the weakest of my suspicions at the moment.

[Xtoxm]

We are simply Elder masons in the white tiger crime syndicate. No rolename. No other flavour.

[PokerFace]

Hi all I'll be catching up on things here tonight.

My thoughts on Pokerface are pending his next post (which he seems to be conveniently avoiding while is very actively posting in Discussion and Mish Mash forums).

Yes, I post alot in MD and GD. I have a job in computers. However I avoid all my games while I am at work for 2 reasons.
1. Getting caught while not on break could be bad for me. GD and MD posting goes fast less chance of getting caught
2. Game posts take time and thought. I either got to find scum or trick everybody. That requires alot more thought than MD or GD postings. Basically I avoid games while at work to focus better on them later so I don't miss things.