Mini #764: Notre Dame Mafia, Game Over

[charter]

There are so many people that need voting out. AHHHHH, I can't decide!

vote Kinetic

If you're scum, the game is already lost.

[charter]

I was his scumbuddy in a game and nom'ed him for a scummy for best scum and he won. So yes, I'd say he's good at being scum, though I don't see any way he can fakeclaim his way to victory in this game.

Also, I wouldn't worry too much about replacements. That newbie game was probably the worst in terms of needing replacements (three people and a mod day one) I've ever seen.

[charter]

There are so many people that need voting out. AHHHHH, I can't decide!

vote Kinetic

If you're scum, the game is already lost.

Not only am I not scum, I've already cleared a player as not scum. I'm THAT good.

Ehhhh, I dont know. This doesn't sound very convincing.

Serious though, I think I might know what you're talking about, but I believe it would require a massclaim of cards, yes? Not sure if that is a good idea right now.

[charter]

Crap, looks like we can pack up, ort's got this game all figured out already.

[charter]

Oh wow, never mind then.

[charter]

unvote, vote ABR

Serious vote. Will explain later.

Also, if you're town, you will notice that there's extra lines at the end of your role PM than the one posted. Hopefully my telling you this convinces you I cannot possibly be scum, so please at least give the massclaim idea thought.

I think we should massclaim cards. There's good reason for this, but I won't explain unless we decide to do this and then after we do it. Of course there is the argument that scum knows what everyone has, but after two nights, it won't matter anyway. I think the knowledge town gains from doing this can catch at least one scum immediately. Please at least consider it before you shoot it down.

[charter]

Further elaboration. As long as the mafia didn't plan for a massclaim (unlikely as it's rarely done for who knows what reason) and they aren't all next to each other on the player list, I think my plan will work. They can't lie about their choices or we will know (unless they're all next to each other). I've probably said too much, sorry I can't elaborate any further right now.

Please don't ask me to clarify either, if you are skeptical just say so and we can procede with normal scumhunting.

[charter]

Actually, did the math, the max the scum can know in play right now is 50% of the cards, assuming perfect distribution, which is possible. Either way they know 40-50% of the cards currently in play.

My plan doesn't require them knowing which cards are in play, if that has any bearing on whether you're willing to give it a shot or not.

[charter]

require is a poor word to use, my plan is unaffected by them knowing cards that are in play.

[charter]

Yeah, the clarify part was an umbrella statement to everyone. I happened to simul post with you.

[charter]

Oh wow, I hadn't even thought of that. The cake sweetens...

[charter]

can you explain your maths on the percentage of cards the mafia might know Kinetic

At this point I think a mass-claim's a decent idea.

There's 36 cards total (12 players, 3 cards each)
If scum were ideally spaced on the playerlist (ie 1, 4, 8) then they would know the original three cards they were given, plus the two passed to them, plus the one passed to them, for a total of six cards known per scum, times three scum, is 18 cards. At most 50% of the cards.

[charter]

I'd vote everyone claims the card they kept first, once all those are done, then the card they got second, then once all those are done, the one they got last, but that might take weeks. I think the method you suggested is nearly as good.

[charter]

You sir are an idiot.

Yeah, I'm not so gung ho about a massclaim anymore.

HOLY CRAP. KAST used gung ho too. This is an unprecidented amount of gung ho in a mafia game.

[charter]

Oh my god, I just read Kast's post instead of skimming it. I believe a massclaim now has about a zero percent chance of finding scum.

I am willing to lynch kast in the next seven posts, this is too atrocious to go unpunished.

[charter]

My whole theory relied on scum not preparing for a massclaim on day one (even if they did, it would be possible if they were dumb with their preparations). This is a reasonable assumption because games rarely have massclaims day one (and I often get lynched for suggesting the idea). I was assuming scum had not planned for a day one massclaim, and thus would panic and just tell the truth, not thinking it through thoroughly.

Assuming this, I had said something about we massclaim, and town would know when scum lied. Scum can only lie about their first card and expect to get away with it anyway. However, I said town would know when they lied to try and keep them honest, I don't think it possible to know if they lied about their first card.

ANYONE who claimed to take the 1/4 vig first round is 100% guarenteed scum. This is entirely worthless to town, and any other power is far outweighs 'not letting scum have 1/4 vig'. I would find anyone who took the plague card first round to be extremely suspect as well. Anyone who took it over the 1/2 cop card I'd call guarenteed scum for sure.

You sharing you thoughts basically spelled all this out for scum, so NO ONE is going to claim to have taken either of these first now. Massclaiming now is just going to out all the protective and cop cards, not catch scum.

Ironically, you cleared ABR from the reason I was earlier thinking he was scum, so

unvote, vote kast

[charter]

It wont work anymore.

[charter]

Gah I thought of a way that would have confirmed townies too. Damnation.

[charter]

Kast, you seem to just be acknoledging it's flaws, and not even considering the pro's. I'm not going to argue about massclaiming anymore because it's not going to be of much use anymore.

[charter]

Ironically, you cleared ABR from the reason I was earlier thinking he was scum, so

unvote, vote kast

Elaborate

Two NK cards are with players directly below me

Yeah, that's what made me realize you probably weren't scum. You passed another card to me that made me think you were scum, but the others you passed outweigh this one.

[charter]

kast, I no longer have any interest in discussing masscardclaim. I don't believe it can serve to help town anymore.

[charter]

Oh no, I realize that with any form of massclaim, there is the potential to give scum a lot of info. However, regardless of information you gain through an actual massclaim (which can be great), I find the opportunity to catch scum through their reactions to massclaim can be very effective. I've done it before, and I see no reason it won't work again.

As far as my vote, it's serious, but obviously my "lynch kast in seven posts" was not, but now scumhunting will be the determining factor in where it goes. I've already narrowed scum down to about 8 people. Zwet and you are at the peak on that list.

[charter]

To clarify on how massclaim could have cleared townies, since this is now blown out of the water, anyone that took the doctor round one, I would say is town. It's completely useless to scum, and very potent in the hands of town.

[charter]

I think anyone (in addition to AceMarksman) who passed the 1/4 nk cards should claim.

But otherwise, I guess charter has it (seeing as ABR said he passed two nk cards).

charter do you have two night-kill cards or just one?

One. I'm against massclaim now. I also don't understand why we would just claim plague and cop, can someone explain?

[charter]

Makes sense, that's fine.

[charter]

unvote, vote Zwet

kast can wait I suppose, I don't need Zwet using his cards.

[charter]

Guys, lets lynch zwet.
1 2 3 GO!

(time to get to reading all this mess, but serious about the lynching zwet part)

[charter]

kast, I see that the people in this game are like me and don't read long posts. I will read these, but not gonna read any more to come.

Response to kast...
I never said that you said scum should and would lie. I merely tried to get them to tell the truth, and then I dropped wanting to massclaim after your post, which told them what lies would be safe.

Also, you make a lot of these accusations against me kast, but don't ever say I'm scum or nothing, what are you getting at? Stop beating around the bush.

Charter directly claimed that it would catch at least one scum immediately. I acknowledge that you did not make that direct claim.

Meh, obviously had no proof, didn't hurt to embelish the idea a little since I genuinely believed it would catch scum.

A death of any one of {Charter, Kast, KidIcarus, Kinetic} prior to Night 2 allows us to ensure zero extra NKs OR definite capture of the lying scum.

If you try to say lynching these people is acceptable for that reason, I will cease doing anything but voting you.

FOS Ace. You've moved up to Zwet levels of needing lynched.

[charter]

Zwet, you haven't given opinions on anyone. You haven't voted anyone. You've posted a lot but said little. Your idea for your card usage was not pro town. It almost seems like you're going out of your way to do all of the above. You're in all likelihood scum.

[charter]

170 is not only completely untrue, but the biggest reach of this game by far.

[charter]

prodded, post later today.

[charter]

ANYONE who claimed to take the 1/4 vig first round is 100% guarenteed scum. This is entirely worthless to town, and any other power is far outweighs 'not letting scum have 1/4 vig'. I would find anyone who took the plague card first round to be extremely suspect as well. Anyone who took it over the 1/2 cop card I'd call guarenteed scum for sure.

After Kinetic claimed taking the 1/4 vig, charter definitely didn't say anything about it. He didn't even blink. Then he disappeared for a bit, and started being a cheerleader for lynching zwet. Didn't even mention Kinetic once for making this statement. Now I don't think Kinetic is scum for taking the card, but it seems that charter has completely changed his position on this point, without even mentioning it. Plus throw in the fact that his method of scumhunting is "massclaim and hope that the scum are dumber than the rest of us" and then essentially posting "lynch zwet" ad nauseum and you have his play in a nutshell.

Vote: charter

I was narrowminded and only saw things from one side. His explaination made sense and any hope of massclaim being good was ruined by that point so I dropped it.

My LOS is Ace, Zwet, Budja in no particular order.

Budja is scum. Look at his posts in isolation. Look at 5 and 16 and he is going out of his way to not vote people.

unvote, vote Budja

There really wasn't much to talk about. I'm trying to steer clear of Kast because I can't argue that much.

I can't really justify a Slicey vote now that he's flaked based off just that one bad post of his.

[charter]

Charter, I don't fully understand your vote. What reasons did you have, again? How did those cooincide with what you quoted? You bring up posts 5 and 16, are you talking about posts in game or posts made by budja?

The 5 and 16 are if you filter his posts, his post 5 and 16 I feel are scummy. Add in the fact that he's not voting, and I think he's just waiting for a wagon to form to hop on. If I recall, Zwet isn't voting either, another reason I'm suspicious of him.

[charter]

Considering I am after you, I can confirm you are not lying about the cards you passed.

@Kinetic, what do you think of this -

It will allow scum to kill dangerous investigative roles and plan around protections.

Kast seems to be making a valid point here.

He's arguing against Kinetic using Kast's words.

Ace comes off impatient and isn't putting up a good defence but my gut says he is clumsy town now.

Zwet is neutral to me. I would like ABR to stop his campaign against zwet and comment on other things too
( ironically, your posts seem to have equal or less content than zwets)

Where is Slicey?

Posts to give a neutral read on two people, a useless comment about ABR, and a lurkerhunt on Slicey. This post was very weak and served no town purpose.

[charter]

If you mean am I voting Budja because he's voting me? He's voting me from his first post, so no.

Interesting that you're so interested in my Budja vote.

[charter]

I'm doubting zwet is scum, but considering policy lynching him because now he's gone to even more ridiculous levels with these last few posts.

However, I feel we can safely lynch scum with either Ace or Budja.

[charter]

All aboard the Budja wagon!

[charter]

Budja-Ace-who knows
We can end this day now, with a lynch of one of these two.

Hey guys. I'll be the replacement for Slicey.
I briefly skimmed through the game before I replaced into
this, and I was really sure I was replacing scum.

We have our third candidate.

[charter]

@kast, that's my explanation, if it doesn't fly to you, so be it. I had only considered one particular view, once it was revealed that I was wrong, I just dropped it.

It also lets him appear to be contributing, when he is actually just parroting other players. Is this an accurate representation of your objection?

Yes, this is what I saw that was wrong. Parroting was the word I was looking for.

Overall- I have a much weaker read on Budja after my re-read. Initially, I had an impression that he was asking questions and trying to arrive at conclusions without making poor assumptions. I don't agree with one main point (I don't think there is evidence of buddying with Ace or that ), but it does seem that he may have been trying to avoid stepping on any toes while also instigating others.

This is hard to believe that you don't see buddying.

The reason Ace's "oh shit" could have been a scumslip is that he could have been hiding the fact that he know the mafia could collect 1/4NK together. Such a strong reaction rung false until I saw his next post and explanation.

Buddying or distancing, depends on Ace's alignment, but regardless, this is bad for Budja.

Ace comes off impatient and isn't putting up a good defence but my gut says he is clumsy town now.

Buddying or deflecting, once again depends on Ace, but once again is bad regardless for Budja.

There are more if you want to put a little thought and interpretation into his posts, but these are cut and dry examples. Also, Budja's posts just lack genuine scumhunting.

Haha, just got to 24.

Ace is an easy target. If I was looking for a mislynch, I would be on his wagon now.

Ummmm, how do you know Ace is a mislynch? He was looking like a damn fine lynch until I saw this.

I would like to request numerous votes on Budja.

[charter]

Well, I went back and looked at context, Budja just comes off worse and worse. In 11, I saw nothing leading up to that, except for yet another wishy washy post (post 7). Ace's "Oh shit" wasn't a scumtell. It wasn't scummy at all. The fact that after Budja clarifes the mechanic, and then 'agrees' with Zwet seemed pretty bad too.

I have no idea what context you could be talking about for 16. I see it exactly how I described it. I'm not saying that giving opinions willfully or when asked is wrong. I'm saying the opinions he did give came from scum. They weren't opinions at all, just statements to blend in.

Also, Budja's vote for ABR (which seemed to come only after discussion of how he left his RVS vote on for like 14 pages arose) is entirely useless and could have come several pages earlier. No one is going to lynch ABR for being useless when there are actively scummy people that need it. It's just a safe place to lay down a vote, because the reason is valid, but it won't serve any purpose.

[charter]

Four people posted and no votes for Budja? Disappointing.

[charter]

Argh, I'm not explaining why Budja is scummy very well at all, I apologize. For a day one lynch, they don't get much better than Budja. However, he needs to respond to 350 before I try and clarify, because I think I have some good points against him.

There are legitimate points against Budja. You don't need to invent fake ones. I think you may be suffering from confirmation bias about the buddying.

Yes, I don't think I'm inventing fake points, but I'm probably not explaining why Budja is scum very well. I will try and elaborate after he posts again.

kast, I have a few questions for you. Can you please explain to me how I've been actively scummy in your opinion? Can you tell me if you think I'm scum or town (just a few words)? Can you give just a list of your top three candidates for being scum (not necessarily who you find suspicious, but if their alignment was revealed by the mod, who's would be scum)? Why aren't you voting?

[charter]

I have a 1.4 Nightkill, forgot if I claimed that already or not. I have no other killing cards.

Ort, who do you want to lynch and why?

[charter]

Still waiting on charter to answer the points I raised against him.

What on earth was I supposed to respond to? You gave a heavily narrowminded and slanted summary of part of my early play. That's not a case at all. There's no questions for me to respond to or anything. All you said was 'charter thought massclaim would be a good idea, but dropped it after being shown differing opinions'.

Ace, terrible case. I really don't know what else to say about that.

[charter]

For starters, how do any of the things you mentioned indicate I am scum? How is me saying a terrible case is what it is ad hom either? Have good accusations that need defending been leveled against me once this game?

I explained my ABR vote. He passed a card I didn't think a townie should. Then I looked at the other two and realized those probably outweighed the other.

Did you not see kast's post? How that ruined any chance of any massclaim? We already went over this.

THE SUDDEN SWITCH WAS KASTS POST. I know I've said that several times, I don't see how you could have missed it.

Your "case" boils down to I didn't reveal my massclaim idea (even though I kind of did), I stopped advocating massclaim after kast's post, and you didn't see my explaination for my ABR vote. In short, terrible case.

[charter]

I'm sensing a theme of not liking people on the charter wagon.

You too?

I could lynch Ace or Budja today. Prefer Budja, but not going to be picky.

[charter]

Actually, I want Budja to respond to 350 before I lump Ace with him.

[charter]

...SO SCUMMY of Ace.

Charter: Ok, say you lynch either of us, what then? What information would you gather from my flip? Also, is there anyone else you find scummy? Anyone that seems obvtown to you?

First off, I note how you completely ignore my shooting down your case. You didn't unvote or respond, so I assume you think it's still good.

What do you mean "what then?" We go to night. Then Day two. Then the rest of the game.
What information would I get from your flip? What?!?!? We see who was eager to get onto your wagon, who ignored it, who gave legit reasons. The same kind of stuff that you get from EVERY wagon.
Is there anyone else I find scummy?!?@? WHAT??? I've repeated that I find you and Budja scummy as hell. How many suspects do I need day one? How many do you have? Why aren't you concerned with others that have more/less/the same number (whichever I'm doing that you don't like) of suspects as me?
Anyone that seems obvtown to me? Several people. Not going to tell your scumbuddies who to kill though.

The fact that Ace comes back with this after I argue against his "case" makes him skyrocket into outer space in scumminess.

[charter]

If I didn't shoot it down, then you explain how all those points you mentioned point to me being scum.

I'm also not going to speculate on who I think is what alignment based off yours, because I don't know yours. Scum do, so my speculation only gives them more knowledge and gives town NOTHING.

[charter]

Well, all I see is that by your inability to explain how the points you raised show that I'm scum means that they, in fact, do not mean I'm scum.

And I'm still waiting on Budja's response to 350. I might explain after he comes back.

[charter]

-Any time someone votes without giving a reason in the same post gets an IGMEOY from me. The reason for this vote was not fully answered until a few posts ago. This is also not something I would see a town aligned player doing.

Why does not giving a reason for a vote I don't keep long (and pretty sure I was the only one voting him at the time) make me more likely to be scum than town? Just because you don't see town doing something, doesn't mean town won't. This isn't a valid argument because it hinges on what YOU personally think.

-Your plan was concealed from the town. Having a potentially game breaking strategy yet witholding it is never a pro-town course of action.

This is so wrong it pains me. The very fact that you make the argument like this, assumes I am town, which means you are scum (because you assume I'm town, but are still voting me). How is me having (what I Thought was) a gamebreaking plan, but not disclosing it make me scummy? If I was scum, wouldn't I have just kept my mouth shut and not said anything? You are assuming that since I had one, but didn't disclose it upfront, that I have to be scum. This is ridiculous and not how massclaims on day one work at all. You don't explain how you catch scum through massclaim, then claim.

-You go from supporting a massclaim to being completely against it in the course of 1-2 posts. You also go from what apears to be a neutral read on kast to being "willing to lynch him in 7 posts" for a recent post. This reminds me, what in his post did you disagree with? What points did you wish to bring up against it? I didn't see anything particularly wrong with it (sans how freakishly long it was).

Go back and read kast's post. It ruined ALL hope of massclaim being effective.

Does that satisfy you?

No, that actually makes your vote even weaker and me more sure you are scum.

charter: do you find Rishi (who is also voting for you) scummy?

What about ABR?

Rishi has just been a lurker. From what I recall, his vote on me was pretty early, and while bad, I think it came before Ace and Budja were caught, so the scummiest thing I see from it is that that is all he can add to the game, when there is a lot he is just ignoring.

ABR has just been useless. Haven't seen anything scummy from him.

If town: It will disprove an ort-charter relationship (which I am seeing). It will make me consider Rishi as a scum candidate

Completely illogical conclusion. Also if this is the only benefit of lynching me when I flip town, you need to move on to someone else, because that's really zero reason to lynch me.

If scum: It will make me feel good about my scumdar. It will strengthen an ort-charter relationship. It will bring up the issue of bussing between him and budja.

You feeling good about your scumdar isn't a reason to lynch anyone. UMMMM, HOLD ON. How can it bring up bussing between me and budja? Budja isn't even going after me. This is also a ridiculously weak reason to lynch someone, even if you "think" they are scum.

Oh, I see ort set this mess straight in 411.

Ort, as far as the apothecary stuff goes, don't scum have to use it on the night they would be killed?

No, that wasn’t all I said. What I said is that, earlier in the game, you made a statement that anyone who keeps a 1/4 NK card or Plague would be 100% guaranteed scum (or something like that). Then, when people started to claim that they had those cards, you didn’t even say anything about it. You completely ignored the issue. What is your opinion on this now?

That I was narrowminded and wrong.

Should people keep or pass those cards? And if your opinion changed, what changed it? What was your reaction when Kinetic revealed he kept those cards (I think he was the first one to reveal)? What do you think of Kinetic in general?

I still don't think they should keep them, but I don't see it scummy of them if they do. My reaction to Kinetic was that he had a good idea, one that I didn't think of. I think Kinetic is way less scummy than most of the people in this game.


I might even be leaning Ace over Budja at this point.

[charter]

I give up. I can't do this anymore. I am ripping my hair out of my head trying to refute Ace's bad attacks. This is the last one I can muster the willpower to refute.

Mod, can we get a votecount please?

Rishi and zEEnon are both currently voting for charter. Why did you not raise the possibility of one or the other of these being busing scum, if charter flips scum?

Oh, I completely forgot about them (mainly because we haven't heard much from them) but zEEnon's vote is from the RVS, no?

WRONG. Zeenon just replaced in and dropped a vote with no reason, and seems to be content with that. You also COMPLETELY ignore ort's point with this really bad attempt at deflecting. It pretty much invalidates (again) your original point.

How do you glean this bs from my argument, huh? You claimed to have a good plan, but we wouldn't know which alignment your plan was good for. A pro town player would give as much information as they could, therefore I infer that your plan was not a pro town one.

This isn't what you argued in the beginning. Your original argument assumed my strategy was protown. Do you not understand that if you first say what claims would be scummy, then claim, that it's impossible to catch scum from massclaim.

You were against a massclaim before kast's post, no?

I was all for massclaim before kast's post.

You keep making these generalizations like "there is a lot he is just ignoring" or "he has been so scummy." Rishi also asked a few of the same general questions that I did, why did you answer mine with a more callous tone than his?

Because I'm getting fed up with trying to argue with you. You are using bad attacks way more often than Rishi.

Because being scummy isn't reason enough..?

Here's a prime example. This has nothing to do with what you quoted of mine.

[charter]

Well, I'm still preferring Budja over Ace. Budja went from having a gut read of clumsy town (which in my opinion isn't a very strong read) to saying Ace was a mislynch, where there was seemingly no doubt in his mind. I'm still thinking scumslip.

@Rishi, why is the majority of the game not worth commenting on to you? Who are your top three suspects and why?

[charter]

ortolan, CrashTextDummie, and Kast

I gather that us four all find at least one of Budja and Ace highly suspect. We should try and all vote for one, because the current votecount is woeful. I prefer Budja, but will go with Ace too. What is each of your preference?

[charter]

Good, vote for Budja then. He's scum too.

[charter]

Also of particular interest is the relationship between Kast, Budja and AceMarkman, because there's definitely some shady stuff going on between these 3 and figuring that out is going to be one of the major puzzles of this game, I feel.

This is pretty much what I'm thinking too.

[charter]

I give up.

[charter]

I'm not interacting with DGB. It's a new policy I am enacting across the site. It's regrettable she came into this game, because if her and zwet aren't scum, now it's 5v7, so today would be LYLO.

[charter]

Can Budja and DGB and kast (if he is indeed scum) just hurry up and vote me and end my misery? In the past 48 hours this game has gone so far downhill it's unsalvagable barring a Budja lynch in the next however many votes we need.

Ace, I pray for your sake that you are indeed Budja's scumbuddy, if you're town I'm at an utter loss for words at this atrocity.

I hand you all gold in the form of Budjascum and all I get is a lot of votes.

[charter]

Ok, I'll just quote random posts and declare the poster to be scum for no reason. Sound familiar?

[charter]

Now is the part where you explain how appeal to emotion can't come from a pissed off townie. Go on.

[charter]

Withdrawing your accusation so easily?

[charter]

I don't want to turn this into a hatefest. I didn't mind DGB when she just declared me town the first game we were in, because I didn't have to defend against her nonsense. But after I did have to, I got so ridiculously pissed off and stopped caring about anything relating to that game, that I just don't think that should happen, so I'm eliminating the problem.

I'd also like to point out, Ace, that after I refuted your points for like the third time in post 425, you come back with "I'm frustrated, I quit". ZOMGZ APPEALZZ TO EMOTIONSSZA!!!!111oneone....
I actually gave very reasonable and easy to understand responses in 425, which if you had actually read, you would realize how weak your vote is, and why ort's questions to you are relevant, and how you still haven't answered them, but instead you continuously ignore of deflect or diminish them.

Guys, we need to maximize the number of votes on Ace/Budja. If you're only willing to vote one of them, post that, so we can hopefully secure seven on one of them.

[charter]

-I think Charter was pretty clearly implying that he thinks Zwet+DGB will vote together with scum and are effectively traitors. 3 mafia+Zwet+DGB = 5 mafia. 5/12 means the town is in LYLO. Charter, feel free to correct me if I misunderstood that. I think it is pretty much craplogic, but then, I think he wasn't intending that to be rational and more an expression of frustration

Yes, you are correct. However, I don't think it's quite this bad yet. I don't actually believe both DGB and Zwet are town. That initial statement was a hypothetical, but I think DGB is scum. I really haven't seen anything scummy of zwet for a long while now and I see DGB goading him on. Also, part of my wanting to rush a lynch on Budja or Ace is because we don't know who the other replacement is. ABR was most likely town (by process of elimination, since Ace and Budja are assuridly scum), but if some idiot replaces him (though you could make a strong case ABR was being one), then we could be right back at LYLO. If the replacement is another bonus mafia member, then that hurts us even worse. This is a pretty bad reason I admit, and most of my reason is I don't want to be lynched, especially if it's going to be a piss poor one like it is right now.
Kast, how come you aren't asking any of them for cases on me? Nearly all the votes on me have non-existant, or weak cases. Last game we were in, I was scum and I did the exact same thing. I urge you not to fall into this trap again.

I will help you with this. What do you make of Ace telling me not to use appeals to emotion but doing it himself? Of his ignoring my pointing this out? Of sweeping legitimate arguments under the rug? Of still not answering Ort's question which showed that Ace's reason for wanting to lynch me is completely invalid?

I pose these questions to everyone.

EVERYONE PLEASE COMMENT ON MY NK DISTRIBUTION PLAN. IF YOU AGREE WITH IT, PLEASE SHARE YOUR PREFERRED METHOD OF PICKING A "CHOSEN" PLAYER (RANDOM/VOTE/OTHER?).

Which post is this? Because I don't rememeber it.

@Charter-
It only takes 4 votes to lynch. I can understand your desire to get people to vote for Budja or AM so that you are not the top lynch candidate. I can't understand your desire to end the day with 5 days still to go and replacements in and on their way in.

I understand that you want the most info possible, but consider this. I get lynched well ahead of deadline. I flip town, now you see who was eager to pile another vote on me, who was just very indecisive, who drove my lynch. A lynch occuring at deadline, especially one where there isn't a majority of town (7 votes here) is so hurtful to town, that it's incredibly difficult to recover. If you actually want me lynched more than Budja, then you need to vote me and be held accountable rather than keep your vote on Budjascum while a townie gets lynched (though normally if you were scum doing it, you would be saying very weakly you don't approve of the charter lynch, which you're not doing, so it looks kind of town). A deadline lynch with just four votes here is just unacceptable. It really doesn't matter to me if lynch happens ten minutes from now, or ten minutes before deadline, 21 pages is more than enough information for day one. (I'm not looking to debate this with you, I'm not going to change my mind on this matter, in the interest of not encouraging novels being written)

[charter]

-I just finished a game with AM, and he is playing extremely similarly to his play in that game. While he is using a lot of poor arguments and has pushed positions that I feel are anti-town, all of it seems consistent with my meta understanding of him, and absent that is just as easily explained by him being a newer townie player as him being scum. I don't think he is scum.

If you let someone use poor arguments and push antitown positions as town, then you open the door wide open for him to do it as scum and get away with it. I don't think you should cut someone slack because they are a poor player.

-If we lynch you now and enter night prior to finding a replacement, then ABR's cards will be selected/passed randomly. This is EXTREMELY anti-town, MUCH more so than having our Day 1 lynch determined by only 5 or 6 players instead of 7.

I had not considered this. You're right, we shouldn't lynch until after a replacement is found.

Your plan seems fine to me, I'd pick the one that will give concrete proof DGB is scum.

kast, you find none of this scummy, even a little bit?

What do you make of Ace telling me not to use appeals to emotion but doing it himself? Of his ignoring my pointing this out? Of sweeping legitimate arguments under the rug? Of still not answering Ort's question which showed that Ace's reason for wanting to lynch me is completely invalid?

I can understand thinking nothing of the first three questions, but you see nothing wrong with the fourth question?

Kast, my charter vote was completely serious, as his post wording completely exploded my scumdar.

Your scumdar is more broken than Hiroshima after being nuked.

[charter]

THE SOONER YOU JUST IGNORE HER ACTIONS AND CONCENTRATE ON THE REST OF THE PLAYERS THAT LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE UP IS UP AND BLUE IS BLUE, THE SOONER YOU CAN CONTINUE FINDING SCUM.

[charter]

I've given up trying to convince you or zwet or DGB of anything that makes sense to a townie. I'm just going to accept your votes for me and work on convince six others to lynch you or Budja.

[charter]

Not sure I understand the question. In order to not die from being plagued, one has to be apothecaried either before they are plagued, on the night they are plagued, or the night after they are plagued.

This is what I was wondering, I was unsure if you had to guess the right night to use it, but you don't.

[charter]

Interesting DGB. But Ort has never been strongly for my lynch, so I would not consider it a notable change in behaviour for him to say I was "possibly innocent".

vote: Rishi

Longish fluff posts with little information, active lurking and scant scumhunting.

I feel all this applies to Budja, Ace, and zwet except maybe not as long as Rishi's posts.

[charter]

Well, first off, I was pointing out the hypocracy of Budja's post. Second, I don't really find Rishi very suspicious. Third zwet is probably not scum. Fourth, that wasn't an attack, merely an observation. Those aren't very good reasons for voting someone when there's about a million scummier things that have happened, and I am wondering why he picks Rishi, someone that I don't think anyone suspects. It looks like he's, once again, going out of his way to be noncommital, which is a fairly large reason why he needs to be lynched.

[charter]

I don't like that his defense against the legitimate points brought against him has been practically non-existent; "I changed my mind" or "I don't want to argue." It is also a bit annoying that he is willing to spend time on AM's ridiculous arguments but not on the legitimate ones.

I can take another look if you want, but the reason is because Ace keeps coming back, time and time again, trying to get anything to stick. You and Rishi gave your reasons, I gave my explanation, and I don't really know where to go any further from there. You're not twisting every post I make like Ace is. You're either willing to lynch me over that or not (and it seems that you and Rishi are) so I feel the best thing I can do after I've explained myself is to do scumhunting.

[charter]

Charter: my vote is on DGB, which kinda invalidtates this part of your most recent post.

but the reason is because Ace keeps coming back, time and time again, trying to get anything to stick

That's pretty bad when zwet sets you straight.

[charter]

Hmmm, I thought I had made a case against you like I did with Budja, I guess I haven't make a "formal case" yet. Just pointed out your defenses of Budja when they occured and whatnot. I can if you'd like me to Ace.

[charter]

Alright, of the two people with the highest number of votes, I think budja is scummier.

vote:budja

.

I have a 1/4 night kill card...
Incidentially, ABR sucks at picking cards.

Are you just piling on a wagon or do you find Budja the scummiest player in the game?

[charter]

Good catch kast, acfan, what say you?

Also, who is the person you find the scummiest, ie, if you could lynch anyone today, who would it be and why?

[charter]

and btw, DGB is actually 100% guaranteed scum at this point

100% eh? You must be very, very certain then. Any reason for saying this?

Obv DGB defense. Both are scum.

That doesn't follow. DGB is known to be one of the best undetectable scum players on MS. I find it extremely hard to believe that DGB would so blatantly connect herself with her scumbuddy like that. ac, I'm not quite sure what you mean by my play in this game not having taken a better direction.

Hilarious.

[charter]

Honestly, I feel like all the DGB attention is an attempt to distract from Budja, and it's extremely likely that DGB is scum with Budja trying to cause havoc before deadline and force a lynch by splitting the votes.

[charter]

Frankly, I am still worried that Budja is going to manage to slip through the cracks. I think that DGB is his scumbuddy. I don't think kast is likely Budja's partner.

[charter]

People that are potentially scum

Rishi
ortolan
DrippingGoofball
AceMarksman

Of those, it is extremely obvious ortolan is scum, hence I

vote ortolan

[charter]

...which isn't really helpful because some scumbags still failed to claim their rat as of Kast's latest list, assuming it is correct (and AM specifically said the listing for him was wrong)

Anyway, why beat around the bush, I know she is scum so:

Vote: DGB

Still waiting for an explanation for your vote, charter.

Bullshit, he wouldn't have died if you did.

I was spectacularly wrong with Budja. It was humbling.

@ charter

Why do you feel ortolan is scum?

He argued for Acemarksman for the longest time, then argued for DGB. He was completely devoid in the lynching Budja process until the very end. Same as Rishi. Also, ZEEnon's replacement is possible scum. I forgot him in my first list.

Oddly enough, my plague is useless...

I targeted CTD. Had a feeling. Meant to re-read and confirm before I was sure. I guess that feeling was wrong too >>.

Anyone who targeted CTD with anything but helpful cards is possible scum. He was easily one of the top three townies. The fact that you hurt one of the main drivers of Budjascum's lynch is incredibly damning. I could lynch you too.

Guys, I can 100% guarentee Ort is scum. Lets lynch him.

[charter]

And FOS all those that didn't vote for Budja early, for good measure.

[charter]

And double FOS anyone who doesn't vote Ort in their first post of this day.

[charter]

The third mafiate may be Kinetic for his blatent terrible usage of his cards which I bet is a lie for what he really did. Zwet is in no way scum due to there not being five scumbags this game.

Also, add to the fact that both ort and Kinetic used cards on the dead townie, and suspicion soars threw the roof!

[charter]

@ charter

I wanted to know charter's cards to understand why he chose doc-protection, of all things, and coincidentally, on the dead guy, which also requires the extraordinary coincidence of scum having used a rat card on him.

It would be so horribly anti town to say what card I used, I will not do it unless every single player asks which card I used.

[charter]

Oddly enough, my plague is useless...

I targeted CTD. Had a feeling. Meant to re-read and confirm before I was sure. I guess that feeling was wrong too >>.

Anyone who targeted CTD with anything but helpful cards is possible scum. He was easily one of the top three townies. The fact that you hurt one of the main drivers of Budjascum's lynch is incredibly damning. I could lynch you too.

Guys, I can 100% guarentee Ort is scum. Lets lynch him.

*Attempted to hurt.

The fact that you're attempting to justify your action is so horribly anti town, words can not describe it. If it weren't for the fact that ortolan is EXTREMELY OBVIOUS scum, you would be swinging from the noose today.

Plus, your reasoning makes no logical sense.

No, it makes perfect sense, literally any player besides CTD, kast, or myself would have been a better use of that card, even yourself, and by a wide margin.

1) If I was scum, why would I ever claim to have targeted CTD? There isn't a tracker card, no one would know. Not to mention the fact that I do have (and still have) a Rat card. I could easily use my lurking to distance myself from the CTD kill with no one being the wiser.

If I was scum, I would even bother to read this. WIFOM defense is entirely ignored.

2) If I was scum why would I waste my plague on CTD and then use the team kill to kill him out right. That makes 0 sense. Why waste a delayed kill by using the real kill on top of it?

Yeah, I didn't read this either. See number one.

3) The only possible explanation for a plague from a mafia on someone they were using their team kill on is if they feared a doc. The fact that we have a doc claim, and the kill went through ANYWAY means that the mafia used a Rat or the Doc is lying. If the Mafia really used a Rat, a Plague AND a team kill on CTD, don't you think that is a TAD overkill?

Clearly at least one of you and ort is lying, in all liklihood both.

4) I targeted CTD because I didn't have a lot of time and I was looking for he bus. I know someone was bussing Budja in my gut and CTD's vote looked like it was primly placed to be the driver. I don't think both scum are on the BUS, the counter wagon was too close for that, but I'm feeling pretty strong that at least one of the scum was on it.

There were two acceptable cards to use on CTD. Those are the 1 shot doctor, and the 1 shot apothecary. CTD was clearly not bussing. Rishi or ort were clearly bussing. Your explaination is poor and unacceptable.

5) The only way you can be 100% on someone is if you're scum or have the Cop card and a result on them. Seeing as the latter is impossible until at least night 2 it makes me question exactly how sure you are about this. Are you overstating yourself a little bit?

Piss poor argument. I overstate all the time. Please try and describe how it's a scumtell, because you will be shot down.

Get a clue please. Still reading, I'm not liking charter honestly in my re-read, more on that later.

No, you get a clue. CTD was literally the worst possible target for a plague. Go ahead and give a case on me, I await the pleasure I will get from shooting it down.


Sorry if this sounds rude or arrogant to anybody, but the only acceptable explaination I see to Kinetic plaging CTD is "I wasn't reading, I was wrong". The fact that he tries to defend himself is horribly scummy.

[charter]

Kast, would you rather lynch Kinetic or ortolan? The decision of who we lynch today depends solely on you. Choose wisely!

[charter]

zwet, I urge you to start looking back at the game and scrutinizing the Budja wagon. Both scum gave themselves up yesterday.

[charter]

...there's more to it than just who was on Budja's wagon. Who avoided it? Who slipped on in the end? Who didn't jump off when there was a more popular wagon? Who pushed for it? Who tried to push other wagons, but eventually gave up?

The answers to all of these questions are extremely telling to people's alignment.

[charter]

I am going to concentrate on charter now because it's looking like he is in fact DGB's scumbuddy- looking like the only way I can explain his complete about-turn (her coaching him in quicktopic last night).

Hilarious. I was town all day yesterday, I lead the charge on a scum lynch, and today I'm scum. Hilarious.

I was never against the Budja lynch at all, he was 2nd/3rd in my suspects behind AceMarksman and later DGB (and by the end Ace had fallen below him, putting him 2nd to DGB). So tell me why you are so much surer that I am scum than DGB.

Yes, thank you. This was exactly my point. You tried to get Ace or DGB lynched all day, rather than Budja. Budja was scum.

Quite a few things wrong with this. You agree he was one of "top three townies" (who are the others out of interest, and what order would you place them in???), but you don't believe I would use a doctor protect on him? Why is this?

That quote was directed at Kinetic, not you. Top three townies were kast, CTD, and myself, we were the three main drivers of the Budja lynch. We never waivered on it.

Blatantly contradicting yourself now re: my doctor choice. Also "CTD was obv-town but I will totally ignore his strongly stated opinion that DGB is scum, and only mention it in passing in 720".

No, you're taking things I was saying to Kinetic like they were directed at yourself. This confusion seems to be the majority of your problem with me, which isn't what actually happened.

These are mostly good reasons for suspecting DGB. Yet you don't...?

Oh no, I do, but I suspect you much much more.

There may still be a SK whose kill was foiled. The only 'evidence' is zwet's cards.

This is an open setup, there's three scum and nine townies.

[charter]

zwet, how on earth does that make her likely to be scum?

[charter]

That quote was directed at Kinetic, not you. Top three townies were kast, CTD, and myself, we were the three main drivers of the Budja lynch. We never waivered on it.

The more people clad themselves in the armor of a successful lynch the more my scumdar goes off and thinks it was a bus.

Wait, who besides me has done this? If you're thinking bus, then you give good reasons for thinking that, not these unfounded accusations.

Zwet has a double plague coming up, why don't we, by threat of lynch, tell him to make one of his targets me?

You clearly have not read this game. Bargaining like this is what sealed Budja's fate. I'd rather lynch you than let you weasel your way out. If you're scum, you can probably guarentee you won't die.

Yes, thank you. This was exactly my point. You tried to get Ace or DGB lynched all day, rather than Budja. Budja was scum.

You're making quite the claim here... There are three scum you know... Ace and DGB could be scum.

Could be scum? COULD BE!?!? Budja WAS scum.

[charter]

Kinetic, there are many reasons for suspecting you, not just poor card choice. You're doing the same thing you're accusing me of. You think you are above suspicion for some reason and I am unjustified in suspecting you, but you have done many scummy actions this game.

There are great for not letting you live until tonight and make zwet plague you. First, this buys you two more nights which is undesirable if you are scum. Also, you have great scumcards, which I'm sure you'd like to use.

I'm done responding to your unfounded accusations. Come back with a real case and we'll talk.

[charter]

kast, no vote?

Also, call me crazy, but what if ort used his "doc" on CTD and Kinetic used his "rat" on CTD?

Yes, ortolan's cards don't matter much, because the case on him is his distancing from Budja yesterday, then jumping on at the last minute.

[charter]

I would like these four players (one of whom wasn't voting Budja, LuL) to tell me why I should have known Budja was obv-scum earlier and why it is inherently scummy to be the sixth vote on a wagon (basically, the point Kinetic made), and why it is more scummy than never joining the wagon at all, particularly whenthe player in question is a player known and acknowledged to be anti-busing.

It's that you constantly said you were suspicious of Budja, but always had your vote on someone else, always was pushing a case against someone else, and then finally voted at the VERY end of the day.

Kinetic's point is crap, same as most that he's made today. I feel he should spend his time reading up on the game rather than what he's doing now, since he still admits he hasn't read it.

I find the chance of AceMarksman being scum a GREAT deal lower after Budja's slipup. I'm still very open to the possibility of DGB being scum, but I think your actions are far more likely to come from scum distancing the whole day, then bussing at the very end. Could DGB be scum? Sure.

[charter]

Ace, I don't remember what order I picked my cards.

CHECK YOUR PM!

[charter]

unvote

I will hear you out.

[charter]

I'm actually waivering on ort some. Most of this is coming from Kinetic's cards and night choice. ort's choice makes a little sense if town, but Kinetic's makes no sense if town. If ort is telling the truth, then my money is completely on Kinetic used his rat last night (he can never claim to use it) and is saving his plague for tonight. This would give him lots of credit, which is perhaps why he claimed out of the blue. There wouldn't be an unaccounted for kill tonight (because Kinetic claimed to plague CTD), but it would come the next night, which also gives him free reign to accuse others of plaguing.

Also, I've been thinking. Lynching zwet would prevent two plagues from eventually occuring, and I'm sure he will nail two townies. The only thing stopping me from pushing this is that it's looking good for the game being over before this point (if zwet is not scum), but I'm not so sure about this anymore.

I am thinking that zwet could be scum, for the idiotic attempted fakehammer and the general anti-town play he has exhibited the entire game. He was my fourth scum, but I need to reevaluate this. Plus, Kinetic needs to say something useful, and Looker needs to post something at all.

However, it might be good for ort not to be at L-1 (unsure what he's at now) so there's no more stupidity to worry about.

[charter]

Kast, of course I am going to speculate on whether or not someone is telling the truth about their night action. Scum will undoubtably lie about it, if you just trust everyone, you will be played for a fool. I'm EXTREMELY suspicious of those that just claimed out of the blue. Not only is it incredibly stupid, but extremely anti-town and scummy.

Now that I think about it, the big problem I have with ort's claimed action is that he immediately claimed it for no reason. His choice makes sense I suppose. Kinetic claimed out of the blue for no reason, and his choice makes no sense.

Kast, I am also wondering about zwet's alignment. I think it recently has crossed over into the realm of scummy as opposed to horridly anti-town. I'm certainly not going to put much stock in townies being able to draw, and then play an apothecary. Honestly, I would rather him plague someone of the town's choosing two times tonight. However, there's obviously no way to ensure this before it's way too late.

[charter]

FOS Rishi. Entirely ignored giving an opinion on ortolan.

[charter]

Well, last time I followed your "listen to me and kill me if I'm wrong plan" and I vigged you and it didn't work out very well. I would rather determine who is scum without having to lynch townies first. Why cant you try and get DGB lynched without dying first? No one is going to listen to the last thoughts of a dying townie, it never happens, so I would prefer not lynching you if you are town.

[charter]

You are obvscum because the entire day yesterday, you always said you were suspicious of Budja, but your vote was always on someone else, and you were always pushing a case on someone else. Then at the very end of the day, you switched to Budja. True your actions could have come from town, but it looks very very bad for you.

How come you didn't make the connection that I was scum even then?

Because obviously I wasn't sure. I said you were 100% scum today, but I'm not even voting you anymore. Not 100% sure either..

Another question: If I were lynched today and flipped town, would you think DGB was likely to be scum? If not, who else?

Honestly, I would think Kinetic is scum because of his cards and card usage. It would mean one of the scum has a rat card. DGB could be scum, but I'm not going to blindly lynch her because we lynched you and you were town.

[charter]

At the beginning of the day, I thought you were scum, now I'm not sure.

It's not that I don't trust dead townies read's, but I don't agree with blindly listening to them. It's possible they are wrong. I would rather be able to follow what they say and be able to agree with it, and then vote. I don't really know what the case against DGB is though, other than trying furiously to get someone but Budja lynched yesterday.

[charter]

Also, Looker needs to make some substancial posts, preferably give opinions on several players and why he holds those. That player slot has said barely anything the entire game, which is disastrous if he's scum.

[charter]

If you read my posts, you'll find I'm currently unsure on an ortolan lynch. I am waiting for his DGB case.

[charter]

For the record, I'm not going to participate in any "lynch me, then lynch this person" deals. All too often it winds up with two townies.

[charter]

Lynch him?

ortolan, where are you?

[charter]

vote ortolan

[charter]

There are numerous cons to claiming your card. Scum now know what you did. They know if you protected yourself, used a cop, used a plague. You tell them what cards they need to play next, or what cards they don't have to watch out for anymore.

[charter]

unvote

I still need to think about this.

[charter]

There are numerous cons to claiming your card. Scum now know what you did. They know if you protected yourself, used a cop, used a plague. You tell them what cards they need to play next, or what cards they don't have to watch out for anymore.

Another failure. Sorry, try again. Scum don't know my other cards for a start

although DGB did try to get me to announce them in-thread LOL!!!!

charter's position: it's not scummy to ask someone to declare their cards in-thread for no reason, but it is scummy to claim a night action which demonstrated information about the scum, and gives virtually no possibility for your other cards being identified.

What if you claimed to use your first card, and the person passing you cards was scum. They would know them all LOL!!!!

[charter]

What if you claimed to use your first card, and the person passing you cards was scum. They would know them all LOL!!!!

The person above you, if scum, already knows one and a half of your cards. In telling them you used a certain card, you are not necessarily telling them anything

at all

.

What if the person above you did not pass you a doctor. Now they know all the cards you could possibly have, an extremely anti town position.

This also assumes the person above you is scum: do you think Kinetic is scum.

Why yes, I do. I've said I find him scummy many times.

It also neglects to mention why DGB asking me to declare all my cards in-thread, wasn't scummy, but this is.

These aren't even the same things. You willfully gave up your night action. DGB pressing you for your cards when you weren't at L-1 was scummy.

[charter]

What if the person above you did not pass you a doctor. Now they know all the cards you could possibly have, an extremely anti town position.

No, they go from knowing one and a half of your cards; to knowing two and a half. They can't even be sure what card you

or

the person after you will use that night (and the next night you get new cards anyway). The logic here sucks I'm sorry.

IF THEY PASSED YOU A 1/2 COP, 1/4 NIGHTKILL, AND RAT THAN THEY KNOW YOU ARE WIDE OPEN TO BEING KILLED TONIGHT. This is what I'm trying to get at.

By scum not knowing your first card, it forces them to rat their target so that they can ensure the target dies.

[charter]

Oh, ort, you should claim all the cards Budja sent you, since scum already know which those were. Budja was the one sending you cards, yes?

[charter]

Is it possible for some people (ORTOLAN) to unvote him? If he were to be lynched right now, and flip town, I don't see us recovering while we have like three hardcore lurkers and a few more that aren't helping much.

[charter]

@Ort claiming his cards-
I don't think it helps us to make him claim.

HOWEVER, I don't think this hurts to share since it is public knowledge already. IF Ort is a townie, then we know that his last card was an Apothecary. His second card had to be one of double or mimic (based on what Budja claimed to pass him).

He has claimed doctor, which has to be his first pick card.

Doctor, mimic (or double), and Apothecary.

If those are his cards, then he WOULD have probably used doctor first. It makes sense since scum would be most likely to use plagues in night 1 and so if scum were limited on rats, then the rats were more likely to come out on night 2 than night 1.

If anything, Ort's cards are plausible and consistent town.

Holy crap! It's like claiming your cards for no reason isn't a good idea! Amazing!

[charter]

vote Kinetic

I am waivering on ortolan, and I think Kinetic is scummier than DGB.

[charter]

Bus isn't the word I'd use for what you did in Really Deep South. More like weakly accused ABR of being scum after he did something stupid. If I remember right, you didn't even vote him.

[charter]

Ah, my memory sucks. That was bussing I suppose.

[charter]

Hmmm, Rishi makes a good point. Did zwet ever comment on Budja? I know he voted for me at some point, and I'm fairly certain it was after me and kast were voting Budja (maybe others too). Will have to go check what the votecount was and what zwet was doing when I get more free time.

[charter]

Did something happen that made all the people who suspected AM of being Budja's scumbuddy change their minds?

This post.

I don't think telling Zwet to use Plague, then Double is the most responsible way to use the cards.

Its either that or Rat then Double. It is the best option unless Zwet wants to double either rat or plague (bad) or use both (also bad). Playing the double second allows him to double a card in his second draft. It logically the best choice.

I don't understand the "This." Please explain.

Just showing that I agreed with the quote and wanted too hear peoples responses to it.

It is possible that Budja was looking for an easy mislynch target.

Ace is an easy target. If I was looking for a mislynch, I would be on his wagon now.

My top suspect at the moment are ABR for extreme tunnelling on zwet (easy to get away with due to zwet's meta) and his posts have been very, very slim on content.

vote:ABR

More from me later.

[charter]

Looker, please read the game and post your thoughts on all the players and your top two suspects and why.

I'm seriously wanting to lynch him...

[charter]

charter, ort wants to die. Can we not abide by his wishes?

This post right here? Scummy as hell.

unvote, vote:kinetic

My read on ortolan is flip flopping, and I'm still getting a strong scum read on kinetic... AM is now in my top four for scum possibilities, which also includes kinetic, ortolan, and DGB.

Did you realize you were previously voting for kinetic?

[charter]

Things that need to happen

People need to unvote ortolan
People need to vote Kinetic

[charter]

What worries me most is how we are lynching someone who is up to date on this game. Guess what, someone who hasn't read the game sure as hell isn't going to be killed tonight. The lurkers are giving no indication of reading any time soon, and I'm suspicious of at least one of them for things besides lurking. Letting them live while lynching active people is the wrong move if we are to lynch three scum this game.

Honestly, letting Kinetic or Looker or even zwet use their card tonight right now is an absolutely horrid idea. Lynching now instead of giving them time to read/think is only helping out the scum.

[charter]

Kinetic isn't even attempting to read what he hasn't, so who knows what info he's basing his decisions off of, but if it's the same info as his N1 decision, then it won't be a good one. It looks like he is posting a fair amount in other games, so I just see his lurking in this one as an excuse.

zwet is just flat out going to plague two townies.

Looker also doesn't appear to have read the thread.

Kast, I'm not really looking at this as 'we need to give people time to read' so much as 'I much prefer Kinetic be lynched, and that is going to take some time'.

I'm actually not ok with an ort lynch anymore. While his repeated self votes are befuddling and piss poor play if town, anyone that were to switch to him right now would be highly suspect, which is why I don't think it's happening (this is true regardless of his alignment). Plus, there is definately scum besides ort, and I think you can make a case that that person is Kinetic, so to me lynching Kinetic now makes the most sense.

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And I will be making a better case on Kinetic later tonight (hopefully) or tomorrow.

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ortolan, I reviewed your case, here are my thoughts on it.

Her opinions on Budja also come across as disingenuous.

Maybe, not a very strong point though.

...Anyone accusing me of trying to stop Budja's lynch should take a long hard look at 696.

We're not accusing you of trying to stop Budja's lynch, we're accusing you of prefering other lynches. Scum would prefer a lynch besides Budja. I went back and looked, and you most definately preferred a different lynch than Budja when the wagon was forming. After Kast voted for Budja, you then say Kast could be a buddy of AceMarksman. Then in 519, after Budja has three votes I believe, you stop wanting to lynch him altogether (before DGB is lynched).

ortolan, what do you make of DGB's post 522?

There is no question that DGB tried to stop Budja's lynch. 696 however, is an absolutely terrible post. The four people she calls scum, I would be amazed if one of them is scum.

Please read 292 and tell me if you agree with DGB's conclusion here. What is so pro-town about this post????

Heh, the fact that it, once again, tells us that AceMarksman is not scum. Holy crap, and a near confession of Slicey being Budja's buddy. This is actually really scummy for Slicey/ZEEnon/looker, look at how Budja deflected CTD's Slicey vote.

I agree that DGB saying 343 was town of Budja is complete BS, since that was undoubtably his scummiest post of the game, with saying AceMarksman was a mislynch.

ortolan, I will meet you half way here, so you do not implode and ruin the good game the town is having right now.

unvote, vote DrippingGoofball

I'm really having a tough time thinking that ortolan is scum and voting himself like this. Most of the people that are not voting him have expressed suspicion towards him, so it seems like way too big of gamble.

I also did a pseudo reread. I want to heavily consider the possibility of Rishi being scum. He hammers Budja about two full days before deadline, saying he prefers to lynch me, but it's not going to happen. At that time, I had five votes, and Budja had six. All that had to happen is that one person had to switch from Budja on to me, and I would have been the lynch. Get this, he says he wont be able to log in before deadline, but he had over a DOZEN posts in other games after this one, and before deadline.

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Actually,

unvote, vote Rishi

Possible both Rishi and DGB are scum, but Rishi is hardcore lurking, and he did that as scum last game I was in with him. Coupled with his lie about his hammer, and it seems like his buddy was already voting me, and unable to swing the lynch on to me instead of Budja. Plus how he switched on to Budja, felt compelled to hammer him then, and switched over after Budja's attempted bargaining, but AFTER CTD said bargaining was bad. Plus, he still had a question about deadline directed at the mod that was unanswered.

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Ok, reread Kinetic. No use making a case, he just lurks, then pops in whenever someone questions him or accuses him to defend himself. Zero scumhunting this game. "Plagued" CTD. Still find him scummy.

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Well, acfan was one of my townies, but with that stupidity (assuming ort is town) that opinion is no more. Pretty sure we're fucked now if we don't lynch scum the next two days, then zwet+whoever else's plagues will hit, probably nuking half the town.

Ort, shut the fuck up about blaming anyone else (assuming you are town). You played so horridly, you have no one but yourself to blame. There is no way you can justify voting yourself, it is just piss poor play. No exceptions.

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I could care less about ortolan's last thoughts if he is town. He clearly isn't playing the game to win and is being incredibly childish and selfish. Nothing he says is going to be in the best interest for the town to act on when he cares so little about the game as to help lynch himself.

In case it's not obvious, I ABHOR those that self hammer and meaningfully contribute to their own lynch as town when it's not protown to do so.

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If it was up to me, I'd vig Rishi and DGB, but sadly I didn't draft a double and a plague.

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Good job Kast.

All I'm going to say about this one.