Mini #764: Notre Dame Mafia, Game Over

[ortolan]

I explained that I was 100% sure of DGB, and 60% sure of Budja. Assuming I am telling the truth, that is perfectly consistent with my actions.

[Kast]

@Ort-
To be fair, yes, if we independently look at either of the points I listed regarding Budja, they *could* be consistent with Ort as a townie.

I DON'T agree that it is consistent with the desire to vote AM or DGB instead of voting Budja and raising Budja above Charter.

[Kast]

@Ort-
When considering the point that you were pulling support from Budja to AM and then to DGB; I see it more in terms of:
Choosing between lynching the 60% or no lynch with a vote on the 100%; you stuck with the no lynch option and actually pursued a course that makes no lynch even more likely.

I don't think you could really be 100% sure of any scum anyway (unless you are scum).

[charter]

vote Kinetic

I am waivering on ortolan, and I think Kinetic is scummier than DGB.

[DrippingGoofball]

Yes, and DGB is consistently anti-busing.

You keep saying that, but I can point you to two games where I lead day 1 buses. Recent ones, too. Check Sushi mafia (no discussion, ongoing) and Really Deep South.

[charter]

Bus isn't the word I'd use for what you did in Really Deep South. More like weakly accused ABR of being scum after he did something stupid. If I remember right, you didn't even vote him.

[DrippingGoofball]

Bus isn't the word I'd use for what you did in Really Deep South. More like weakly accused ABR of being scum after he did something stupid. If I remember right, you didn't even vote him.

Then check the other game, if that's not bus'ing enough for you.

Also, I did vote for him indeed: http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 45#1531345

[charter]

Ah, my memory sucks. That was bussing I suppose.

[AceMarksman]

charter, ort wants to die. Can we not abide by his wishes?

[ortolan]

explain the above please AceMarksman. Do you think I am scum?

[DrippingGoofball]

charter, ort wants to die. Can we not abide by his wishes?

ortolan is a good player. I'm interested in his opinion if he flips town. There is no deadline and I'm in no rush to see him lynched.

I'm a bit worried by the fact that he refuses to acknowledge that his locking on to me is very much "auto-lock-on-to-DGB-she-is-never-town."

I'm tryin to get some insight into other players from him, but so far he's no cooperating at all, in terms of making actual cases.

I'll be V/LA May 5-13. Within 5 days, if ortolan hasn't provided ortolan-quality cases on at least two of his non-DGB suspects, I'm going to unvote zwet, and switch to ortolan (unless someone 'fesses scum or something). I think 5 days is reasonable to make good cases.

[Rishi]

Few things:

1) I can rarely post more than once a day and there's some days when I can't post at all. This is not a speed game, and I don't see why this game should fall outside of the norms of other games on the site. I will not ask to be replaced out of respect to PJ and out of respect for the theme (I wager I'm the only one here who has played the board game that this setup is based on). So, you're all just going to have to deal with me not posting as often as you guys. I will say it one more time and hopefully this will get through to you people with mysteriously large amounts of free time:

I AM NOT LURKING OR INTENTIONALLY AVOIDING THIS GAME. I AM BUSY.

2) As for ortolan, I found him to be one of the most pro-town players on Day 1 and I'm not sure why he came under so much fire early in Day 2. I've read some of the points against him, and I think, while some of you had legitimate reasons for voting, there's just a lot of bandwagoning going on. The self-vote is, of course, ridiculous, but I think it's as DGB said - he's just exasperated. I've seen scum self-vote (heck, I've done it myself as scum), but usually at that point the reasoning is that you want to shut down discussion. The fact is that ortolan still continued to post at that point and engaged with other players. I really think he's a frustrated townie.

3) I don't have an opinion on Kinetic. He was hyper-aggressive at the beginning of Day 1, disappeared, and now he's back.

4) So, zwet, you may have a legit point about not posting before deadline, but correcdt me if I'm wrong: school is a regularly scheduled thing, right? So you knew you wouldn't be on again until deadline? So why did you not give an opinion on the biggest wagon at that point? In fact, I don't think you really ever commented on Budja at all. That's why I find you scummy - you completely avoided the issue.

[charter]

Hmmm, Rishi makes a good point. Did zwet ever comment on Budja? I know he voted for me at some point, and I'm fairly certain it was after me and kast were voting Budja (maybe others too). Will have to go check what the votecount was and what zwet was doing when I get more free time.

[AceMarksman]

explain the above please AceMarksman. Do you think I am scum?

Um, yeah I do, that's why I'm voting you and continue to post points against you.

[DrippingGoofball]

I think zwet is scum. He's not his usual cricket-self.

[Kast]

@Rishi, Charter-
Just looked back and Zwet did make some comments on Budja, but very brief ones.
-Ace speculated that Charter could be bussing Budja, and Zwet denied that possibility.
-After CTD joined Charter and Kast in voting for Budja, Zwet voted for Charter. This vote secured the lynch threshold on Charter (which was on and off prior to that) and kept Charter as the vote leader.
-Zwet consulted with Budja's opinion on ABR.
-Zwet called Budja scummy for flip-flopping his vote. He refers to this point again later.

I couldn't really say if this says anything about Zwet's alignment.

@Ort-
This post by Charter illustrates the crux of why I think your vote history is the scummiest thing to date. Neither of your top two lynch candidates were even at lynch threshold, so either no lynch or lynch of someone other than your top choices was likely. CTD moved to Budja and instead of you voting according to your stated beliefs, you maintained your position.

You later replaced Ace with DGB, but claimed to still hold Budja as a 2nd/3rd option.

I can see a townie stubbornly holding on to their top lynch candidate even when that is not a feasible choice. If they are doing so while the outcome is a probable town lynch or no lynch and the alternative is lynch of number two candidate, it is still possible, but less likely. In either case, I think it is pretty anti-town behavior.

In the case where the player seems to be a good/rational player, I think it is more likely a result of the player being scum. Your actions are entirely consistent with scum.

@AM/Budja defending each other-
I know I wasn't a big proponent of this idea, but it seemed like there was a lot of suspicion that AM must be Budja's scum buddy, and now it all disappeared.

Did something happen that made all the people who suspected AM of being Budja's scumbuddy change their minds?

It seems like people decided Budja was the scummier of the two, then after lynching him, all suspicion of AM just evaporated. From this I loosely suspect that scum were attempting to create a false pairing between Budja and AM, but have now dropped that idea since it didn't take root (potentially also because an AM lynch can no longer provide "town points" for Budja).

[zwetschenwasser]

Ort:

HYUCK HYUCK

Unvote; Vote: zwetschenwasser

Self-vote logic FAIL

Unvote; Vote: Ortolan

There is no excuse to selfvote as town (this coming from a guy who's self-hammered before)

[charter]

Did something happen that made all the people who suspected AM of being Budja's scumbuddy change their minds?

This post.

I don't think telling Zwet to use Plague, then Double is the most responsible way to use the cards.

Its either that or Rat then Double. It is the best option unless Zwet wants to double either rat or plague (bad) or use both (also bad). Playing the double second allows him to double a card in his second draft. It logically the best choice.

I don't understand the "This." Please explain.

Just showing that I agreed with the quote and wanted too hear peoples responses to it.

It is possible that Budja was looking for an easy mislynch target.

Ace is an easy target. If I was looking for a mislynch, I would be on his wagon now.

My top suspect at the moment are ABR for extreme tunnelling on zwet (easy to get away with due to zwet's meta) and his posts have been very, very slim on content.

vote:ABR

More from me later.

[Looker]

unvote

explain the above please AceMarksman. Do you think I am scum?

[charter]

Looker, please read the game and post your thoughts on all the players and your top two suspects and why.

I'm seriously wanting to lynch him...

[DrippingGoofball]

I'm seriously wanting to lynch him...

That seems too good...

[ac1983fan]

charter, ort wants to die. Can we not abide by his wishes?

This post right here? Scummy as hell.

unvote, vote:kinetic

My read on ortolan is flip flopping, and I'm still getting a strong scum read on kinetic... AM is now in my top four for scum possibilities, which also includes kinetic, ortolan, and DGB.

[AceMarksman]

In my experiance, I've only seen scum self-vote, and my philosiphy is this: if you are town, then you are the ONLY confirmed pro-town player that you know of. Considering this, then WHY would you vote the only person that you know is pro-town? Also consider that ort thinks that his lynch will give us information about the alignments of other players.

[DrippingGoofball]

In my experiance, I've only seen scum self-vote, and my philosiphy is this: if you are town, then you are the ONLY confirmed pro-town player that you know of. Considering this, then WHY would you vote the only person that you know is pro-town? Also consider that ort thinks that his lynch will give us information about the alignments of other players.

I've done it many times. AS TOWN. Sometimes no one listens and you become really exasperated.

[AceMarksman]

Yes, but I've never seen it as I've stated. I've also stated that your playstyle is greatly different than ort's, and that ort feels that his lynch will give us information on your alignment.

Hm... This is actually quite interesting, DGB is trying to talk me out of an ort lynch. I'm having second thoughts about an ort lynch now. I still feel he is scummy, but the above post is making me consider DGB again...