Mini #764: Notre Dame Mafia, Game Over

[Kast]

@Charter&ACFan-
I don't think that is realistically going to happen. Looks like we're probably just heading to deadline.

@Looker-
You said you'd prefer a replacement; is that serious? You also made a comment about Ort not voting, but you yourself are also not voting. If you want out of this game, tell the mod. If not, place a vote.

[charter]

What worries me most is how we are lynching someone who is up to date on this game. Guess what, someone who hasn't read the game sure as hell isn't going to be killed tonight. The lurkers are giving no indication of reading any time soon, and I'm suspicious of at least one of them for things besides lurking. Letting them live while lynching active people is the wrong move if we are to lynch three scum this game.

Honestly, letting Kinetic or Looker or even zwet use their card tonight right now is an absolutely horrid idea. Lynching now instead of giving them time to read/think is only helping out the scum.

[Kast]

@Charter-
-If Looker is being replaced, then I agree with your thought. I think we should definitely let whoever replaces have as much time as possible for reading and figuring out night choice.

But given that he posted again after his comment about replacement, and since PJ isn't saying anything about replacing Looker, I'm guessing that won't be happening.

-I don't follow on Kinetic or Zwet being replaced or benefiting from an extra few daytime days to make night choices. Kinetic's has proven himself good at lurking until he gets a prod then posting frequently enough to not be replaced, I see nothing to indicate that this will change. Zwet is less active atm, but he is still posting (and more frequently then several others).

I think Zwet's card usage will probably be random no matter whether he has to submit choices now or at the end of the week.

If Kinetic is a townie, then he only has one option for his nightchoice now (NK). If he is scum, then it doesn't really help to give him more time to plan out his plague kill.

@PJ-

Are you looking for a replacement for Looker since he said he would prefer to be replaced from this game?

And actually to be clear, I don't find ACFan or Charter suspicious for not hammering Ort. Ort is among their stated suspicious players, so I can see them being okay with his lynch but preferring Kinetic's lynch if that becomes viable.

[charter]

Kinetic isn't even attempting to read what he hasn't, so who knows what info he's basing his decisions off of, but if it's the same info as his N1 decision, then it won't be a good one. It looks like he is posting a fair amount in other games, so I just see his lurking in this one as an excuse.

zwet is just flat out going to plague two townies.

Looker also doesn't appear to have read the thread.

Kast, I'm not really looking at this as 'we need to give people time to read' so much as 'I much prefer Kinetic be lynched, and that is going to take some time'.

I'm actually not ok with an ort lynch anymore. While his repeated self votes are befuddling and piss poor play if town, anyone that were to switch to him right now would be highly suspect, which is why I don't think it's happening (this is true regardless of his alignment). Plus, there is definately scum besides ort, and I think you can make a case that that person is Kinetic, so to me lynching Kinetic now makes the most sense.

[charter]

And I will be making a better case on Kinetic later tonight (hopefully) or tomorrow.

[Kinetic]

Kinetic isn't even attempting to read what he hasn't, so who knows what info he's basing his decisions off of, but if it's the same info as his N1 decision, then it won't be a good one. It looks like he is posting a fair amount in other games, so I just see his lurking in this one as an excuse.

I'm in one other game, and its based on RISK. I won't discuss an ongoing game except to say that that game is unique in the fact that it doesn't require as much thought on players and can be played simply as a straight Risk game.

The only other game that could possibly be looked at of mine is the game I am modding. Again, ongoing so I can't discuss it, but I don't exactly have to stay current in the game and post more often than once or twice a day at most.

But if you want to look into it deeper you'll notice that WOT wasn't even started when I had most of my time issues (Day 1), and I was just as inactive in RISK during that time period.

Since then you can hardly say I've been lurking. Its true I haven't caught up completely (last final exam was today, so that won't be the case soon), but I have been posted relatively frequently even if not always with intimate knowledge of the game. I've laid myself out there for you all to judge as much as I can. When I catch up I'll be better, but you can't fault me for lurking previously now that I'm back.

zwet is just flat out going to plague two townies.

Then it would be a good idea to vote him? He is a good choice, I'm voting him myself, but no matter what I do two plagues is worse than any of my cards could be even if you don't believe what I have.

Kast, I'm not really looking at this as 'we need to give people time to read' so much as 'I much prefer Kinetic be lynched, and that is going to take some time'.

Or it could be "As soon as we're finished with this lynch I've set up the next, don't worry guys, I got it."

I'm actually not ok with an ort lynch anymore. While his repeated self votes are befuddling and piss poor play if town, anyone that were to switch to him right now would be highly suspect, which is why I don't think it's happening (this is true regardless of his alignment). Plus, there is definately scum besides ort, and I think you can make a case that that person is Kinetic, so to me lynching Kinetic now makes the most sense.

Except your case about me isn't very compelling, which is why I don't have many votes.

Ironically enough I think you're more likely town lately than earlier in the day. I tend to have bad OMGUSy attacks when people are attacking me. Its one of the reasons I try not to vote during wall of text wars until I've made a decision on the person, not the argument.

That being said I have some gut feelings and some circumstantial evidence on zwet (particularly his own card use choices, AC's play toward zwet which I find suspect), and in the end even if Zwet isn't scum he is a volatile townie at best with a double plague option that no one has been comfortable with all game.

I wanted him to plague first and double second so at the very least his damage would be minimized. He decided to go for broke and I don't trust him with that much power, town or scum.

That is why I'm voting for him and not hammering Ort. I have no plans to hammer Ort at this time.

[petroleumjelly]

Day Two: Vote Count #7

5 ortolan (AceMarksman, Kast, zwetschenwasser, DrippingGoofball, ortolan)

2 Kinetic (charter, ac1983fan)
2 zwetschenwasser (Kinetic, Rishi)

With

10

alive, it takes

6

to lynch, and

4

to lynch at deadline. Deadline is May 9, 9:59 pm CDT.

Not Voting – 1 – Looker

I am not currently looking for a replacement for Looker. If Looker requests by PM or uses

bold

text in the game for replacement, however, then I will begin searching.

[Rishi]

Sorry to harp on this, but doesn't it make it worse that zwet actually said some negative things about Budja but never placed a vote on him? Isn't that classic scum play towards a scumbuddy? Some soft distancing, but no voting or any real pressure? And then conveniently hold back right before deadline? I'm not sure why no one else sees this.

I didn't vote for ortolan before because I thought he was still engaged with the game after his self-vote. When scum self-vote, they do it to shut down discussion, and now it's clear he has no intention of trying to be helpful. It's tough, though. I always felt like I had a town read on ortolan, and so I'm reading most of his antics as frustration. If the game situation is the same in a couple days, I'll hammer before deadline, but I'm not feeling it right now.

Kinetic - If I was forced to pick between you and ort, I'd lynch you, but I still would much rather lynch zwet at this point.

[ortolan]

How exactly is my play indicative of "scum having given up"?

If DGB was actually town she would have given satisfactory answers to my case in 1019 rather than two one-liners which don't say anything, then we could have gotten on with finding the real scum.

and zwet being completely useless isn't a scum-tell for him I'm afraid.

Rishi, what do you think of my case on DGB as expressed in 1019?

Kast, what do you think of my case on DGB as expressed in 1019?

AceMarksman, what do you think of my case on DGB as expressed in 1019?

charter, what do you think of my case on DGB as expressed in 1019?

zwet, what do you think of my case on DGB as expressed in 1019?

ac1983fan, what do you think of my case on DGB as expressed in 1019?

Kinetic, what do you think of my case on DGB as expressed in 1019?

Looker, what do you think of my case on DGB as expressed in 1019?

If anything my flip should educate you that using crappy scum-tells e.g. in situation Person A opposed a wagon of scum repeatedly, Person B acknowledged said person was scummy, but preferred to lynch Person A because they were scummier, the correct conclusion is in fact

not

that Person B is scummier than Person A. You had to learn this eventually, but hopefully it will stick based on this game.

And my self-vote was in fact

not

anti-town in this instance either, because I anticipated the scum simply getting a townie lynched then returning to the wagon started by vacant townies the next day (which places you in LYOL, as opposed to lynching me, which merely places you in penultimate LYOL).

[Kast]

@Ort 1019 case on Budja-
-I don't share your meta about Zwet and DGB interactions. It looks like DGB votes carelessly and at times erratically. I can understand anyone voting for Zwet's reckless behavior and out of fear of his plagues. I don't agree that those are strongly indicative of Zwet being scum.

-Yes, DGB needs attention for strongly defending Budja. But regardless of affiliation, a player who says they were wrong after strongly defended someone who flipped scum seems normal and expected.

-Agreed that DGB's defense of Budja was a bit incomprehensible, and mostly emotional appeal. Doesn't seem out of character with the rest of her play so far.

-I can see the point about you taking votes from Budja. It doesn't require the observer to personally think Budja is scummy. The problem is that you publicly claimed that Budja was your number 2 and were acting in a manner to bring the town away from a lynch of your number 2 and towards lynch of someone who you thought was a townie or possibly no lynch. At the time, it raised conditional suspicion of you, and after Budja's flip, it is suspicious.

-Agreed that that point shouldn't be a town-point for Budja. It does look like DGB abandoned that list pretty quickly. It looks like she made some judgments on replacing into the game, and as she actually became involved, those judgments were abandoned in favor of new posts and the impressions from those posts. If DGB were still maintaining that her initial list and read were accurate, I would find it extremely suspicious.

@Ort's Self-Vote-
If the options are townie gets lynched then Ort gets lynched putting us in LYLO OR Ort gets lynched putting us 1 shy of LYLO; what's to stop scum from lynching a townie after you are gone and putting us in LYLO?

In general, I would think a townie is better at preventing a mislynch while alive than while dead; but the implication seems to be that your death now will allow us to successfully lynch scum? Although your death tomorrow would not do the same?

[charter]

ortolan, I reviewed your case, here are my thoughts on it.

Her opinions on Budja also come across as disingenuous.

Maybe, not a very strong point though.

...Anyone accusing me of trying to stop Budja's lynch should take a long hard look at 696.

We're not accusing you of trying to stop Budja's lynch, we're accusing you of prefering other lynches. Scum would prefer a lynch besides Budja. I went back and looked, and you most definately preferred a different lynch than Budja when the wagon was forming. After Kast voted for Budja, you then say Kast could be a buddy of AceMarksman. Then in 519, after Budja has three votes I believe, you stop wanting to lynch him altogether (before DGB is lynched).

ortolan, what do you make of DGB's post 522?

There is no question that DGB tried to stop Budja's lynch. 696 however, is an absolutely terrible post. The four people she calls scum, I would be amazed if one of them is scum.

Please read 292 and tell me if you agree with DGB's conclusion here. What is so pro-town about this post????

Heh, the fact that it, once again, tells us that AceMarksman is not scum. Holy crap, and a near confession of Slicey being Budja's buddy. This is actually really scummy for Slicey/ZEEnon/looker, look at how Budja deflected CTD's Slicey vote.

I agree that DGB saying 343 was town of Budja is complete BS, since that was undoubtably his scummiest post of the game, with saying AceMarksman was a mislynch.

ortolan, I will meet you half way here, so you do not implode and ruin the good game the town is having right now.

unvote, vote DrippingGoofball

I'm really having a tough time thinking that ortolan is scum and voting himself like this. Most of the people that are not voting him have expressed suspicion towards him, so it seems like way too big of gamble.

I also did a pseudo reread. I want to heavily consider the possibility of Rishi being scum. He hammers Budja about two full days before deadline, saying he prefers to lynch me, but it's not going to happen. At that time, I had five votes, and Budja had six. All that had to happen is that one person had to switch from Budja on to me, and I would have been the lynch. Get this, he says he wont be able to log in before deadline, but he had over a DOZEN posts in other games after this one, and before deadline.

[charter]

Actually,

unvote, vote Rishi

Possible both Rishi and DGB are scum, but Rishi is hardcore lurking, and he did that as scum last game I was in with him. Coupled with his lie about his hammer, and it seems like his buddy was already voting me, and unable to swing the lynch on to me instead of Budja. Plus how he switched on to Budja, felt compelled to hammer him then, and switched over after Budja's attempted bargaining, but AFTER CTD said bargaining was bad. Plus, he still had a question about deadline directed at the mod that was unanswered.

[charter]

Ok, reread Kinetic. No use making a case, he just lurks, then pops in whenever someone questions him or accuses him to defend himself. Zero scumhunting this game. "Plagued" CTD. Still find him scummy.

[zwetschenwasser]

ort, self-voting is one of the most anti-town things you could ever do. Why are you trying to deny it? If it matters, I find DGB quite scummy at the moment, but not as much as you. Rishi, do you gain something by beating a dead horse? It's already been explained why I wasn't around to hammer, though I would have liked to.

[ac1983fan]

Alright. Even though ort is not the scummiest player IMO, he is scummy enough for me to drop a hammer now.

unvote, vote:ortolan

I still think Kinetic, DGB, and AM are the scummiest.

[ortolan]

I'm glad out of this game

It's impossible to tell scum from town when you have players like ac1983fan posting the above (haha ort's my fourth scummiest player but I'll hammer him), charter flip-flopping his opinion from me to DGB to Rishi to Kinetic, zwet being zwet, Kinetic using plague bizarrely, Rishi not giving us enough information to determine her alignment, Looker replacing someone who made a scummy comment and continuing to be lurking scum, AceMarksman dropping more scumtells than a whole mafia team and DGB...being scummy.

Too much anti-town play this game.

[charter]

Well, acfan was one of my townies, but with that stupidity (assuming ort is town) that opinion is no more. Pretty sure we're fucked now if we don't lynch scum the next two days, then zwet+whoever else's plagues will hit, probably nuking half the town.

Ort, shut the fuck up about blaming anyone else (assuming you are town). You played so horridly, you have no one but yourself to blame. There is no way you can justify voting yourself, it is just piss poor play. No exceptions.

[Kast]

I'll reserve judgment until we actually see Ort flip. My last game we narrowed down our potential cop by half the players after scum faked anger at being lynched.

@Ort-
Any final thoughts that might help the town in the event that you are town?

I assume you want us to watch DGB. I think your next suspect atm is Ace?

Do you have any thoughts on the players you haven't been commenting on (aside from how terrible we all are)?

[charter]

I could care less about ortolan's last thoughts if he is town. He clearly isn't playing the game to win and is being incredibly childish and selfish. Nothing he says is going to be in the best interest for the town to act on when he cares so little about the game as to help lynch himself.

In case it's not obvious, I ABHOR those that self hammer and meaningfully contribute to their own lynch as town when it's not protown to do so.

[charter]

If it was up to me, I'd vig Rishi and DGB, but sadly I didn't draft a double and a plague.

[ortolan]

Ort, shut the fuck up about blaming anyone else (assuming you are town). You played so horridly, you have no one but yourself to blame. There is no way you can justify voting yourself, it is just piss poor play. No exceptions.

Catching two scum day one and doc protecting the night-kill victim then getting tunneled on by shit logic (outside of my control) is bad play how exactly?

[petroleumjelly]

Day Two: Vote Count #8

6 ortolan (AceMarksman, Kast, zwetschenwasser, DrippingGoofball, ortolan, ac1983fan)

2 zwetschenwasser (Kinetic, Rishi)
1 Rishi (charter)

With

10

alive, it takes

6

to lynch, and

4

to lynch at deadline. Deadline is May 9, 9:59 pm CDT.

Not Voting – 1 – Looker

~

ortolan, Town, has been lynched!

It is now

Night Two

. Choices are due by 9:59, May 8.

[petroleumjelly]

charter, Town, has been killed!

It is now

Day Three

. With

8

alive, it takes

5

to lynch, and

3

to lynch at deadline. Deadline is May 23, 9:59 pm CDT.

[ac1983fan]

Well that was a waste of an apothecary... I was thinking they would've gone after Kast and maybe plagued charter....
In any case, I'm going camping this weekend, so this is my only post until late sunday or monday.

vote: kinetic

[zwetschenwasser]

Yay! I didn't plague either of them, which solidifies my opinion that my targets are scum...