Mini #764: Notre Dame Mafia, Game Over

[DrippingGoofball]

Another failure. Sorry, try again. Scum don't know my other cards for a start

although DGB did try to get me to announce them in-thread LOL!!!!

You claim to have used a doctor card. That in itself is extremely unusual. But then again, it depends on what your other cards are. Maybe it's not that unusual. I expect that it is, in the absence of information about your other cases.

Furthermore, you have use a doctor card on a player that died.

Kinetic's claim was hardly re-assuring.

If you're resigned to die and self-vote, maybe it is time to annouce your cards to give us actual hard facts to evaluate your alignment.

[DrippingGoofball]

DGB, if you weren't scum I would say Kinetic, Rishi or zEEnon

zEEnon for the whole "my predecessor looked scummy" (I don't remember anything else from him), Rishi for lurking, Kinetic for his card choice.

Those are very skinny 'cases.'

Can you put more meat on them?

[ortolan]

What if you claimed to use your first card, and the person passing you cards was scum. They would know them all LOL!!!!

The person above you, if scum, already knows one and a half of your cards. In telling them you used a certain card, you are not necessarily telling them anything

at all

. This also assumes the person above you is scum: do you think Kinetic is scum. It also neglects to mention why DGB asking me to declare all my cards in-thread, wasn't scummy, but this is.

[ac1983fan]

ort is obvscum. I've never seen a self vote from a pro-town player.

Clearly you've never played more than one n00b game.


It seems like ortolan is trying to WIFOM us into thinking that if we lynch him and he's town, then we should lynch DGB tomorrow because he's definite scum. The further WIFOM comes from the fact that this may be a scum tactic to tyr and get us to mislynch DGB. IMO, saying "lynch me then x" only works if there are counterclaims to certain roles...

unvote, vote ortolan

If you do turn up town, DGB is not necessarily tomorrow's lynch. There IS the possibility that you could be incorrect town.

Regardless, I still think Kinetic is rather scummy.

[charter]

What if you claimed to use your first card, and the person passing you cards was scum. They would know them all LOL!!!!

The person above you, if scum, already knows one and a half of your cards. In telling them you used a certain card, you are not necessarily telling them anything

at all

.

What if the person above you did not pass you a doctor. Now they know all the cards you could possibly have, an extremely anti town position.

This also assumes the person above you is scum: do you think Kinetic is scum.

Why yes, I do. I've said I find him scummy many times.

It also neglects to mention why DGB asking me to declare all my cards in-thread, wasn't scummy, but this is.

These aren't even the same things. You willfully gave up your night action. DGB pressing you for your cards when you weren't at L-1 was scummy.

[ortolan]

You claim to have used a doctor card. That in itself is extremely unusual.

....???????????????????????????????????????

Furthermore, you have use a doctor card on a player that died.

How obv-town, was CTD? If you were scum, would

you

use a rat card on him? I'm actually surprised he didn't get more doctor protects, I can't imagine what the other townies were doing last night.

Just a note: insisting that the scum are unlikely to use rat on their kill target (and therefore my claim is implausible), is very scummy

If you're resigned to die and self-vote, maybe it is time to annouce your cards to give us actual hard facts to evaluate your alignment.

My card choices will tell you nothing about my alignment. Remember Budja's.

[ortolan]

What if the person above you did not pass you a doctor. Now they know all the cards you could possibly have, an extremely anti town position.

No, they go from knowing one and a half of your cards; to knowing two and a half. They can't even be sure what card you

or

the person after you will use that night (and the next night you get new cards anyway). The logic here sucks I'm sorry.

[DrippingGoofball]

You claim to have used a doctor card. That in itself is extremely unusual.

....???????????????????????????????????????.

Yes. Normally, you wouldn't protect another player before protecting yourself.

[DrippingGoofball]

How obv-town, was CTD? If you were scum, would

you

use a rat card on him? I'm actually surprised he didn't get more doctor protects, I can't imagine what the other townies were doing last night.

A very good case could be made that Kast is more pro-town than CTD.

My card choices will tell you nothing about my alignment. Remember Budja's.

That's true in a way, but it might justify your priority to protect CTD rather than use some other cards in your hand. In your case, it may be more informative than Budja.

[ortolan]

Um, in your card choices that depends firstly on whether you get to choose between a doctor and a sanctuary to begin with, and secondly whether you predict yourself to be one of the most likely pro-town players and most likely to get night-killed. Doctor cards are also substantially more versatile than sanctuary cards if you need to choose between the two.

[charter]

What if the person above you did not pass you a doctor. Now they know all the cards you could possibly have, an extremely anti town position.

No, they go from knowing one and a half of your cards; to knowing two and a half. They can't even be sure what card you

or

the person after you will use that night (and the next night you get new cards anyway). The logic here sucks I'm sorry.

IF THEY PASSED YOU A 1/2 COP, 1/4 NIGHTKILL, AND RAT THAN THEY KNOW YOU ARE WIDE OPEN TO BEING KILLED TONIGHT. This is what I'm trying to get at.

By scum not knowing your first card, it forces them to rat their target so that they can ensure the target dies.

[ortolan]

That's true in a way, but it might justify your priority to protect CTD rather than use some other cards in your hand. In your case, it may be more informative than Budja.

The only card I would have rather had last night, was a plague card to use on you (it should be obvious I don't have one due to my earlier rhetoric that using a plague card after night 1 is anti-town). Otherwise protective cards were optimal. It just so happened I'm so good I used it on the right person, but the scum used a rat card and apparently everyone else was busy plaguing townies.

[charter]

Oh, ort, you should claim all the cards Budja sent you, since scum already know which those were. Budja was the one sending you cards, yes?

[Kast]

@Ort-
I really don't like self votes that aren't a hammer or a vote that puts you into the lynching threshold (okay, actually yours did put you into lynch threshold so maybe not so bad...).

But it feels like you are giving up on the game (maybe you are?). We aren't actually doing badly, even if you are actually a townie and we mislynch you, we correctly lynched scum on Day 1 which is HUGE.

Also, I don't think that you were a sure lynch...Charter explicitly stated that he was wavering and wanted to hear your case on DGB. ACFan stated he prefers a Kinetic lynch to yours. Kinetic and Looker don't seem interested in lynching you either.

-Post 943-
-You're arguing a technicality. Your vote was only placed after Budja's lynch was a foregone conclusion. During the time that you called Budja your number 2 scum target, you chose to not vote for him. When you had the choice to vote for your number 2 target and secure a lynch of that target over an alternate of either no lynch or lynch of someone you felt was town, you chose to vote for someone who was nowhere near lynching (this was the situation for much of Day 1).

-Pulling votes AWAY from a CONFIRMED scum IS scummy. It is even MORE SO when you were saying that the confirmed scum was one of your top lynch choices. At the time, it was not scummy. Now that Budja is confirmed, it IS very scummy.

-Charter was in danger of being lynched for much of Day 1. During that time, instead of voting for Budja, you asked the players who were voting for Budja to switch votes to players who had even less chance of being lynched. This reduced Charter's chances of surviving, and increased Budja's chances of surviving. I think that is definitely scummy.

-If you are a townie, then you don't know DGB's affiliation. Telling us that you strongly suspect DGB is fine. If you die and flip town, we will recognize that there are townies who legitimately believe that DGB is scum. That does NOT mean they are correct (they may be they may be mistaken). I think you're a good enough player to recognize that. I find it suspicious that you keep pushing it anyway and can't seem to understand why other players can't blindly agree to that. Related but to a lesser degree, it isn't good to let yourself be lynched.

-I missed that thing about you claiming your night action. I don't think it's actually indicative of you being scum. I can see you as town claiming that to expose that a rat was used. I don't think we gain much from it, but it doesn't hurt us much either.

-I split your behavior with Budja into two points because I see them as independent points. The first shows an inconsistency between your stated beliefs and your actions. The second shows active defense of a confirmed scum. The second is akin to DGB defending Budja. DGB, however, was consistent in saying that Budja is a townie.

-DGB-
I forgot that, you can add it as another point against DGB.
-DGB may have been fishing for Ort's cards.

...you guys are posting too fast I can't keep up =D

[ortolan]

IF THEY PASSED YOU A 1/2 COP, 1/4 NIGHTKILL, AND RAT THAN THEY KNOW YOU ARE WIDE OPEN TO BEING KILLED TONIGHT. This is what I'm trying to get at.

They didn't pass me those cards though Plus, be honest here, do you think if I wasn't lynched today there's

any

chance of scum night-killing me? Keep trying to establish a scenario where my claim might conceivably have a 1% chance of hurting me, you may come up with one eventually.

[Kast]

@Ort-
Kinetic isn't the person above you. Budja was and he is dead now and we know he is scum.

@DGB/Charter-
It is pointless asking Ort for his cards. Budja was before Ort, CTD was after Ort. It is now pretty much impossible for us to verify Ort's cards.

If Ort is scum, then all the cards that Budja named previously, could be lies and Ort *verifying* them could be lies as well.

[ortolan]

DGB, however, was consistent in saying that Budja is a townie.

Yes, and DGB is consistently anti-busing. The connection isn't too hard to see. On this point I still can't see how I can be portrayed as more scummy than DGB for behaviour on Budja

Re: charter, no-one was going to quicklynch him. I would not defer my vote to a suboptimal target unless it was deadline. Playing otherwise is actually likely to have very bad consequences (imagine me trying to explain why I switched votes to someone who I suspect less than someone else, before deadline).

[Kast]

@Ort claiming his cards-
I don't think it helps us to make him claim.

HOWEVER, I don't think this hurts to share since it is public knowledge already. IF Ort is a townie, then we know that his last card was an Apothecary. His second card had to be one of double or mimic (based on what Budja claimed to pass him).

He has claimed doctor, which has to be his first pick card.

Doctor, mimic (or double), and Apothecary.

If those are his cards, then he WOULD have probably used doctor first. It makes sense since scum would be most likely to use plagues in night 1 and so if scum were limited on rats, then the rats were more likely to come out on night 2 than night 1.

If anything, Ort's cards are plausible and consistent town.

[charter]

Is it possible for some people (ORTOLAN) to unvote him? If he were to be lynched right now, and flip town, I don't see us recovering while we have like three hardcore lurkers and a few more that aren't helping much.

[charter]

@Ort claiming his cards-
I don't think it helps us to make him claim.

HOWEVER, I don't think this hurts to share since it is public knowledge already. IF Ort is a townie, then we know that his last card was an Apothecary. His second card had to be one of double or mimic (based on what Budja claimed to pass him).

He has claimed doctor, which has to be his first pick card.

Doctor, mimic (or double), and Apothecary.

If those are his cards, then he WOULD have probably used doctor first. It makes sense since scum would be most likely to use plagues in night 1 and so if scum were limited on rats, then the rats were more likely to come out on night 2 than night 1.

If anything, Ort's cards are plausible and consistent town.

Holy crap! It's like claiming your cards for no reason isn't a good idea! Amazing!

[ortolan]

@Ort-
Kinetic isn't the person above you. Budja was and he is dead now and we know he is scum.

My bad. Scum do know (2.5/3) of my original cards (they don't know which of two I passed and which I kept). It's not gonna help them though

[Kast]

@DGB-
End of Day 1, Ort was calling me YOUR scumbuddy. It wouldn't fit if he claimed to doctor me.

He also STRONGLY felt you were scum. CTD was your biggest detractor (other than Ort); I think CTD makes sense as his choice if he is a townie.

[ortolan]

Unvote

[ortolan]

If those are his cards, then he WOULD have probably used doctor first. It makes sense since scum would be most likely to use plagues in night 1 and so if scum were limited on rats, then the rats were more likely to come out on night 2 than night 1.

The main thing is there is no reason to use apothecary before night 2. But yes, your reasoning in this post was pretty much all correct and impressive.

[Kast]

@Ort-

Re: charter, no-one was going to quicklynch him. I would not defer my vote to a suboptimal target unless it was deadline. Playing otherwise is actually likely to have very bad consequences (imagine me trying to explain why I switched votes to someone who I suspect less than someone else, before deadline).

Charter was in lynch threshold with Budja as the runner up for almost half the day. You didn't need to jump on before deadline; you had plenty of time. I seriously doubt that anyone could reasonably call you suspicious for voting your NUMBER TWO suspect. Even less so if the alternative is lynching someone you think is a townie.