/in-Vitational Game 4 (Game Over!)
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i have the most foolproof case ever assembled:
vote: charter
- failure to self-importantly announce "first post!" in the first post (keeping a low profile)
- evil laughter (being evil)
i'm generally more a fan of simply stating the fact that i've figured out someone is scum, voting them, and then encouraging others to do the same. i find the best use for question asking is ascertaining which players are most likely to be scum with my prime suspect.thesp wrote:roflcopter, what do you think of question-asking in general?
thesp, do you think a (presumably) random vote which is made with no additional text whatsoever is more likely to come from scum or town?soi soi soi
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i'm disappointed that everyone wasn't bowled over by my amazing case against charter, but we can come back to that later.
unvote, vote: kmd
number of scum slip is solid. bridgesandballoons is his partner.soi soi soi
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they're equally scum, so i'm gonna put my momentum where it counts
unvote, vote: bridges
elvis wagon is weaksauce. claus' attack against elvis seems primarily like a means to discredit wagons on either kmd or bnb, which is chainsawriffic.soi soi soi
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i'm very clearly voting you because the bandwagon on you was bigger than the one on kmd. i think you're both scum. claus is sticking out as a third.bridges wrote:I think Inhimshallbe, Serial Clergy, Rofl, and Ekim are voting me because previous people were voting me. I do not believe they would have voted me if no one else was.
charter is town. elvis is town. people need to stop voting for elvis. that wagon is full of scum and sheep.
i get the feeling kmd/bridges found themselves in a 4 person scumgroup, assumed that the sample role pms would simply state as much and therefore presented the information. upon discovering that the sample pms actually account for up to five scum, they are both now struggling to come up with reasons why they assumed 4, with such charming excuses as "i thought there were only 16 players." really? you haven't been paying attention to the more than a month long game placement process and announcement which very clearly indicated you had been placed in a 20 person game with only people who you were interested in playing with, or at the very least were not adverse to playing with? i don't buy it.soi soi soi
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i'm saying i find it very unlikely that you didn't know how many players were in the game. you must have at least looked at the player lists when the games were announced, and the numbers were very clear there. this is why i find the "i thought there were 16 people in the game" to be a poor excuse for being sure of a 4 man scumteam.soi soi soi
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scum would want to refute dichotomies along the lines of "if x is scum then y is town" where x, the scum, is clearly going to be the first one dead. it makes it damn near impossible to ever mislynch player y.
and i absolutely follow and agree with the logic that bridges and xyl are not scum together.
elvis, you should vote for bridgessoi soi soi
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i thought that 4 scum plus a traitor comment was very probably sarcasm, but not the initial assumption of there being 4 scum. it looked like sarcasm being used as a deflection so he didn't have to actually get into the fact that he had slipped up. i still think he's scum.soi soi soi
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hey look, its the appeal to page number, my favorite terrible scum argument!
lynch bridges now pleasesoi soi soi
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page two of lynch all lurkersBridgesAndBaloons wrote:
Could you show me a single example of a good, correct argument made in a large game before page 5?roflcopter wrote:hey look, its the appeal to page number, my favorite terrible scum argument!
lynch bridges now please
Before you waste your time looking through hundreds of games let me just tell you: it never happens. I didn't have a big case on Xyl, I was "drumming it up." and I knew it wouldn't get him lynched.
Just like I know E_k won't get lynched because she was making this "big attack on KMD for a slip that didn't exist." Because there needs to be more reason to lynch someone in a game than something simple like that.
page one of mafia 93
i only reference games i was a part of because i will not waste my time dredging through other games when i can prove you wrong so easily with these. there is some player list overlap with those two games and this one who will be able to confirm if you don't want to take the time to go look at those scum getting caught by good, correct arguments before page five of large games.
appeal to page number is a horrible, horrible excuse for anythingsoi soi soi
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you're comparing apples and oranges.bridges wrote:@yos 246, like I said before, it's really bad logic. If the town follows bad logic that leaves it vulnerable to listen to bad logic from scum. Scum's logic is always faulty (unless there's two scum groups, a SK, or bussing) and so I want to sent a precedent that we won't follow it. Does this make sense at all? I'd attack the logic of "Bridges is town because he isn't lurking" too, that's just bad logic.
the only reason to try to discredit the statement of "bridges and xyl aren't scum together" is if you're scum and you're in danger of getting lynched, because then xyl becomes semi-confirmed, and this is bad for your scumteam. you're just hiding behind some ridiculous "i attack all bad logic to prevent an environment where bad logic thrives" idea.
yos, you should be voting for bridges now toosoi soi soi
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shabba's apparent lack of forum mafia experience gives me pause.
besides, a shabba wagon would take the wind out of the bridgewagon's sails, and that would be a real bummer since we should be lynching him pronto.
i still want elvis and yos to vote for bridges. two spots left on the wagon, get 'em while they're hot!soi soi soi
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extreme cautiousness and fear of the mislynch seems like a perfectly natural response to one's first game of forum mafia. i'm not seeing shabba's skittishness as scummy.
meanwhile, qft thesp's point re: herodotus. this late in the bridge wagon his vote really sticks out as an attempted counterwagon to save bridges and nothing else. you can't really expect to have a lurkerwagon go anywhere when we've already got a legitimate wagon practically at the bursting point.
yes. slip ups look more like natural reactions if multiple people profess to having the same reaction. in this case, i think bridges was trying to save kmd's patootie by saying he had the same initial idea.thesp wrote:You think both saw each other's response and backed eash other up?
and paying attention during the signup process or not, everyone looks at the first post of the game, everyone should know how many players there are. a lot of players (stupidly) don't read all the rules and sample roles thoroughly, as we've now seen since these scum didn't know how many scum were possible on a scumteam, but everyone at least looks at the player list.soi soi soi
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uh, what? what the hell gambit are you talking about?iamausername wrote:I'm much more suspicious of rofl buying the supposed slip as a slip, because I'm pretty sure he pulls that opening gambit all the time.
can we just look for a second at what you said when you brought up page numbers in the first place?BridgesAndBaloons wrote:
I agree. I'm not using it as an excuse.roflcopter wrote: page two of lynch all lurkers
page one of mafia 93
appeal to page number is a horrible, horrible excuse for anything
I am not using appeal to page number to defend myself, I was using it to support why I don't think the E_k wagon or Xyl wagon will continue and turn into a lynch. So, that's why I don't consider those votes as trying as hard as one can to get lynched, because it's so early and lynches don't happenthatearly.
Now, you provided some interesting examples that sort of changes my mind, but after reading (I only read the first game) I see it was sort of an unusual situation -- Zwet who said something incredibly scummy and also threatened to lurk (super scummy because it was LAL mafia and lurking gave mafia extra NKs), and then threatened to self hammer. Anyways do you understand? I'm not using apeal to page number to defend myself, I'm using it to explain why I don't think actions that occur early in the day can really constitute "trying to lynch as hard as you can."
So,Rofl:please respond directly to this statement and tell me you understand what I'm saying.
you are, very obviously, using the page number and nothing more to argue that we should essentially disregard what you did and draw no conclusions whatsoever about your relationship with xyl. i have provided examples of people trying as hard as they can to lynch on pages 1 and 2, and more could probably be provided, so your argument holds no merit whatsoever. just because you say that something happening before page 5 of a large game means it should be ignored doesn't mean i'm going to ignore it.bridges wrote:Wait. Do you think day 1 vote before page 5 constitutes me "trying very hard to lynch one another?"
Do youreallythink that?
as for zwet being a special case, how scummy does one have to be in order to be a special case meriting a serious vote before page five that you intend to follow through to a lynch? this seems like an extremely arbitrary boundary, one that you've set up simply as a convenience so you can try to make everyone ignore the implications of you pushing a wagon on xyl in the early game.
stop. this isn't about arguing theory, this is about the motivationBridgesAndBaloons wrote:
You know what, I disagree with your idea, but now we're just pedantically arguing theory and that's kind of not helpful.elvis_knits wrote:It was not merely that you voted him on page "x." This is the post that made me think you and xyl are prob not scum buddies:
[ . . .]
If however, you lynch Player B and he flips scum, and then you accuse Player A of bussing, you are screwing yourself hardcore. You are not only lynching a town player and a good one who has already lynched you scum, but you are creating a paranoid environment where other players can't trust each other, and where nobody can find scum without being accused of bussing.
I'm curious: have you lost any games because you assumed someone was town after they bussed their partner?youhad to argue the theory in the first place.
lets look at the three possibilities here:
1 - you're town. you don't know xyl's alignment
2 - you're scum. you know xyl isn't
3 - you're scum. so is xyl
in case 3, you would keep your mouth shut and let everyone ride along with elvis' theory that you two can't be scum together. in case 1, you have no reason to argue against this theory because, not being scum yourself, you know that youcan't be scum with xyl. only in case 2 do you have any motivation whatsoever to refute the idea that bridges and xyl can not be scum partners.
and what happened? you vehemently tried to (and continue to try to) refute the idea that you and xyl can't be scumpartners. i give you option 2, scum bridges and town xyl. thanks for playing.soi soi soi
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and there goes kmdscum, fleeing the wagon on his partner at the first opportunity and joining the most viable alternative wagon.soi soi soi
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tell me, kmd, did you read post 298 before you decided that scum can't fakeclaim vanilla as a result of a day one wagon?soi soi soi
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yeah, its definitely time for bridges to be lynched.soi soi soi
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i am always exactly as sure as i act. i have never gambited.username wrote:The gambit of acting surer than you actually are about things in the early stages of the game.soi soi soi
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this one is good for the lulz because obviously before anyone ever votes for you and when you're at lynch minus one are completely comparable situations to judge your interactions with other players, amirite?bridges wrote:. . . But if I come up scum, they are pro-town, remember, there's no such thing as bussing Day 1.soi soi soi
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this one is good for the lulz because obviously before anyone ever votes for you and when you're at lynch minus one are completely comparable situations to judge your interactions with other players, amirite?BridgesAndBaloons wrote:
no no no no noroflcopter wrote:
this one is good for the lulz because obviously before anyone ever votes for you and when you're at lynch minus one are completely comparable situations to judge your interactions with other players, amirite?bridges wrote:. . . But if I come up scum, they are pro-town, remember, there's no such thing as bussing Day 1.
I'm talking about the people I will post cases on, if I find any. THOSE people are confirmed if I come up as scum.soi soi soi
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herod appears to be pre-emptively establishing a phony reason to attack thesp after bridges flips scum.soi soi soi
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i feel like we're just twiddling our thumbs here. bridges screamed at us to wait and then what... went on a lurkerhunt?
we have the scumteam, folks: bridges, herod, kmd, claus, maybe username too
judging my the surety with which bridges and kmd insisted on a 4 man team, one of herod and username would be a traitor.
lets bag and tag 'emsoi soi soi
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claus: the basis for my conclusion that you're scum is your initial attempt to throw people off the scent of bridges and kmd. since then you've slowly, slowly come around to the position that bridges is scummy enough to lynch in a way that looks to me like "sigh. guess i'll have to go ahead and bus." that's why you remain on my list.soi soi soi
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oh my technique is easy. step 1, find a scum. step 2, spot anyone who is overly hesitant to see them lynched, especially if they're slyly directing traffic away from their wagon, or defending them on illegitimate grounds. step 3, lynch the scum and all of his/her partners.Claus wrote:Oh, I see!
Man, you already found what, 3, 4 scum? Please teach me your scumhunting techniques after the game
Just out of curiosity. Suppose I'm not scum, who would take my place in your list?
its never worked 100% perfectly, but i don't let that stop me from acting like it will every game.
if you aren't scum then i'm even more sure that iamausername is. he's currently holding the "if there's a 5th its this guy" spot.soi soi soi
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zu doesn't really seem connected to bridges. nor does he fit in my "no more than five scum" numerical model.elvis_knits wrote:
I don't think we should forget zu faul either.roflcopter wrote:i feel like we're just twiddling our thumbs here. bridges screamed at us to wait and then what... went on a lurkerhunt?
we have the scumteam, folks: bridges, herod, kmd, claus, maybe username too
judging my the surety with which bridges and kmd insisted on a 4 man team, one of herod and username would be a traitor.
lets bag and tag 'emsoi soi soi
wins: open 69 (townie), mini 592 (sk), mini 617 (mafia rb), open 102 (mafia lover), crackers! (doctor), mini 712 (doctor), mini 715 (townie), mini 770 (inventor), lynch all lurkers (townie), mafia 100 (mason), space mafia (neighborizer)-
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you make a good point regarding his connection to kmd. since the bridges wagon took off i've been connecting exclusively to him, but when the you widen the net zu gets caught in the trap too. of course now i'm suffering from the "too many scum" syndrome.elvis_knits wrote:
He is on the vote-elvis-to-defend-kmd train. Also he keeps raining on the parade of every other wagon, while simultaneously not explaining why none of my explanations or further actions cause him to reevaluate me at all.roflcopter wrote:
zu doesn't really seem connected to bridges. nor does he fit in my "no more than five scum" numerical model.elvis_knits wrote:
I don't think we should forget zu faul either.roflcopter wrote:i feel like we're just twiddling our thumbs here. bridges screamed at us to wait and then what... went on a lurkerhunt?
we have the scumteam, folks: bridges, herod, kmd, claus, maybe username too
judging my the surety with which bridges and kmd insisted on a 4 man team, one of herod and username would be a traitor.
lets bag and tag 'em
He should be considered.soi soi soi
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well claus, you fall under the umbrella of another strong relational tell that i've used with great success in my mafia career, the chainsaw defense. short version is player 1 gets attacked by player 2. player 3 steps in to attack player 2 because of attacks on player 1. if either player 1 or player 3 are scum, the other is very highly likely scum as well. your attacks on elvis have been very chainsaw-y.
but i can pretend your town for a second.
ekim case: yes, definitely valid points, but ekim doesn't fit into the bridges-scum framework. his jump onto the bab wagon wasn't at all buslike.
yos case: the timing of his bab vote makes him extremely unlikely to be a bridges scumpartner, but otherwise also a solid case. i'd want to do my own investigation into yos-meta. when bridges flips scum yos will fall neatly into the all-but-confirmed town pile along with several other players.
thesp case: i disagree. i just don't find thesp scummy here in any conceivable situation, bridges scum or not.soi soi soi
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its a process of elimination thing. of the five who i would say most likely make up the largest possible theoretical scumteam, {bridges, kmd, claus, herod, iamausername} my read on you and your connection to bridges is the least conclusive. based on comments from kmd and from bridges i'm actually guessing that the scumteam itself is made up of four members, and if there is a fifth that person is a traitor. under the hypothetical scenario of claus not being a member of the above scumteam, you slide neatly up the ladder.username wrote:So, is there any particular Claus/username scum dichotomy, or is it just a process of elimination thing?
but don't worry, no amount of hypothetical situations will convince me not to lynch him with extreme prejudice when bridges flips scum.soi soi soi
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why do you think repeating the same scummy point over and over again is going to make it stick? what part of this aren't you getting.BridgesAndBaloons wrote:
According to Yos, there's no such thing as bussing. Either he's forgotten all his games of mafia, or he's scum.Yosarian2 wrote: , B&B is probably scum and, if he is, Xyl is 100% guarenteed to be town;
I'm pretty confident Yos is scum.
vote:yos
anyone else: if bridges is scum, xyl is town
bridges: STOP RIGHT THERE! XYL COULD STILL BE SCUM WITH ME!
everyone in their right mind: now why would you say that if you were anything but scum with not xyl?
and now you use the same crap to try andvalidate your vote for someone else?soi soi soi
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i am against running ekim or anyone else up to claim range while we have our first scum sitting on a silver platter.soi soi soi
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wow, what an annoyingly time intensive request. i'll have to get back to it when i'm on my own computer tomorrow, i don't have the patience to learn how to use a mac right nowusername wrote:rofl, can I get a list of all large games you have been in where the number of scum was not public knowledge from the beginning?
vote: kmd
unvoting the guy who was scummy enough for him to vote for in the first place based on a vanilla claim is, itself, enough for me to want him lynched. the fact that he switched off bridges back to obvtown elvis, and is now continuing to push an elvis lynch, is just gravy. in addition i agree with what yos said, he is town.
in addition to the above two obvtowns (elvis, yos) we have charter and thesp who are very clearly town.
pooky, i like your style, but you need a better target. for example, kmd.
other scummy characters include zu faul, iamausername and serialclergyman. i was perturbed by clergy's high activity level in mafia 96 throughout the crucial end stages of the bridges lynch while he said nary a word here.soi soi soi
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what? no? i was disturbed by the fact that while bridges was in the process of slowly being lynched, something that took a few days to get from claim to execution, serial didn't post once in this thread but posted up a storm in mafia 96. by not posting he didn't have to be for or against the lynch, which is a very comfortable position to be in for scum.PookyTheMagicalBear wrote:why were you disturbed by that rofl? is endgame and day 1 quite similar in terms of play in your experience?
really. you should be too. or build a betterthesp wrote:roflcopter, voting for Kmd3490? Really?mousetrapbandwagon. i feel the lurkerwagon on serial doesn't need me, and kmd's wagon does.soi soi soi
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mafia 93iamausername wrote:rofl, can I get a list of all large games you have been in where the number of scum was not public knowledge from the beginning?
lynch all lurkers
crackers! mafia
xylbot mafia
mafia 96 which is ongoing but i'm dead
mafia 84
yes. you should not be voting for him.Xylthixlm wrote:
Hath thee a read on Yos beyond agreement?roflcopter wrote:in addition i agree with what yos said, he is town.
i more or less agree with elvis' list in post 557. charter should be bumped from neutral to town and zu from neutral to scum though.
serial is chainsawing for kmd hard, and at this point attacking yos is a scumtell. yos feels like an easy target after low level rumblings yesterday about how something was "off" with his play that nobody could seem to quantify. i think there's opportunistic scum trying to take advantage of that, especially the fact that dead-town-claus was one of the most vocal in the "i don't like the way yos feels this game" camp.
this is a sad little deflection from the fact that you plopped your vote down and didn't make a single comment about the late stages of the wagon, content to leave it there and lurk until he was lynched. i was happy with how i read yesterday, and unless you know something i don't i still don't think all my theories were wrong. for instance, kmd-zufaul being scum together. and now i'm willing to bet on you for a third partner.serialclergyman wrote:rofl - My vote was on the BAB wagon and I was definitely for it. I'm not going to claim that I was impartial to it but voted him nonetheless. I was there, I wanted it to happen. Now - given almost all your theories were completely wrong, do you think you deserve some scrutiny, or were you happy with how you read yesterday?soi soi soi
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ekim is creating a whole lot of noise, but i'm unclear on what any of it has actually accomplished aside from detracting from the attention clergyman should be getting.
more serialclergyman votes please. vp baltar should come back to the wagon. yos2 should join us as well. and all you nonvoters need to get off your butts and do something.
serialclergyman has the official roflcopter "this is a solid wagon" seal of approvalsoi soi soi
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fair enough. i really don't see anything in that votecount that you posted which makes me go "zomg its thesp." i was hoping you could explain why color coding it gave you that reaction.Xylthixlm wrote:
Meh. I don't have enough to make a case.roflcopter wrote:i'm not really getting xyl's thesp suspicion.soi soi soi
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baltar, if you're not going to come back to the serialclergyman wagon, can you give me a better understanding of why you left it in the first place?soi soi soi
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for daytalking masons, claus herodotus and shabba had their votes all over the placesoi soi soi
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yoPookyTheMagicalBear wrote:is anyone around right now?soi soi soi
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i agree with this, which is why i want baltar back on the clergyman wagonXylthixlm wrote:
That's your problem right there. If I think someone hasn't said enough to form an opinion on them, I lynch them.VP Baltar wrote:
I have a stronger scum read on ekiM and username, though SC's continued neglect here isn't exactly making merofl wrote:baltar, if you're not going to come back to the serialclergyman wagon, can you give me a better understanding of why you left it in the first place?notwant to kill him. Like I said before, I'd like to hear more actual opinions and comments from him so I can either prove or disprove my suspicion.soi soi soi
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charter, thesp - why aren't you voting anyone right now?soi soi soi
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serial, when you ask a question to which the only answer that will dissuade you from your course of action is some kind of role information, you are role fishing.soi soi soi
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and on that note, pooky, come back and vote for serialclergymansoi soi soi
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here's the gist of the conversation we had -
rofl: you shouldn't vote for yos, he is town
serial: unless you tell me a role based reason to believe he's town, i will continue to vote for him
rofl: fine i'll just lynch you
it was wrapped up in your whole "but you're doing it too" schtick, but the main thrust of "i'll need to see role info before i change my mind" is there, and thats role fishingsoi soi soi
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no but i might eat baltar'sSerialClergyman wrote:rofl, if I flipped town, would you eat your hat?soi soi soi
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yeah, see, you just left out the part where you said this:SerialClergyman wrote:Absolute crap.
the gist of the conversation was
rofl: You're chainsawing for Kmd.
Serial: Well, by that logic YOU'RE chainsawing for Yos2
rofl: Ok, vote.
and thisserialclergyman wrote:Unless you've got some knowledge about Yos2 that I don't haveserialclergyman wrote:If his point is that I am chainsawing because I'm defending KMD by attacking Yos2 and he makes that WHILE defending Yos2 by attacking me, he's got some explaining to do to show the difference.soi soi soi
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don't worry, i chortled
the problem is your motivation for asking me to be clearer on why i think yos2 is town. you've already stated that you think I'M town, and you're making it very clear by your statements that you won't accept any reason to think yos2 is town other than some kind of role based information. there is no way for me to answer without benefiting scum. either i confirm myself as a power role, or i confirm myself as not having role info on yos2, meaning you can continue on your merry way trying to lynch him and the scum don't have to worry about nking me. this is why i didn't answer at all, and instead voted you, because the very act of trying to get further information out of me on the subject was scummy.soi soi soi
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not much time at the moment, i'm not happy to see that the serial wagon has completely evaporated.
unvote, vote: xyl
he should know better than to vote for yos again at this pointsoi soi soi
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i really don't like the baltar wagon. serialclergyman had a serious case of having his cake and eating it too in posts 772-773. joining the baltar wagon, and the turning around and slinging mud at ekim forjoining the baltar wagon? i don't think there's a more obvious way to admit that you know the wagon you're on is bullshit.soi soi soi
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username: yes it was an oversight. i just scanned the new york and theme park forums for my past games, and mafia 90 was such an affront to humanity that it didn't catch my eye as a game i had played in. i also forgot real time mafia, a game which ended up mod abandoned.
as for my current games, my only other ongoing is webcomics wars mafia
thats a very narrowminded view of what could possibly cause me to change my opinion between the end of day one and the beginning of day twousername wrote:3. In this post, rofl says that Claus has a solid case against Yos, but that Yos doesn't fit as a partner of BaB. So why, when BaB did NOT flip scum, has rofl gone ahead and started acting like he is confirmed town anyway? I think his post here was an attempt to placate Claus and push the BaB wagon through to mislynch, because he clearly had no intention of actually following up on this suspicion of Yos.soi soi soi
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i was under the impression that xyl had understood the implied message the first time i told him to stop voting for yos, but apparently the tidal wave of people who demand more explanation has emboldened him to go ahead and pretend he doesn't catch my drift either.soi soi soi
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it should just be left alone at this point.serialclergyman wrote:Rofl - any comment on the rolefishing argument or are you leaving that one alone?
both wagons give me the heebiejeebies, but of the two i'd go for ekim.Kmd4390 wrote:Xyl, who of ekiM/VP would you rather lynch?
Same question to Charter, Rofl, Yos, and Pooky.
with a few notable exceptions (cough vp baltar cough) its pretty close to my own.xyl wrote:roflcopter, what do you think of Yos's scumlist?
oi. thesp vigdirecting towards yos is terrible. let me make this clear one more time. yos is not scum.
until now, my friend. you've given yourself away this time.Xylthixlm wrote:Well, leaving out roflcopter, who despite his reputation as a gut player hasn't gotten any better at reading mesoi soi soi
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town:SerialClergyman wrote:Rofl, could you do up your 3 most scummy and 3 most townie?
yos
elvis
charter
scum:
xyl
serialclergyman
kmdsoi soi soi
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thesp had been sitting firmly in my town category right up until he just suggested the vig shoot yos, at which point my scumdar went ballistic.
kmd sitting on the ekim wagon really makes me think ekim is town
and kmd, honestly, you're going on about how you'd work your magic with yesterday's votecount if only you had it in vote order - let me give you a newsflash. the votes are all there, in the order they were made, right here in this very thread. you just need to click your way back and look.soi soi soi
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wow, if there's one terrible fallacious argument i hate more than all others its "you were wrong about me last game so somehow that means you're wrong about me this game too" and all of its awful variants, like the above that seems meant to convince everyonexyl wrote:roflcopter was totally convinced I was scum in that game too, btw.elsethat since i was wrong about you in mafia 96 i must also be wrong about you here.soi soi soi
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wait, i've done that?xyl wrote:I've seen you play this pretend-you-have-role-info-to-clear-someone trick before and I am not buying it.soi soi soi
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