/in-Vitational Game 4 (Game Over!)

[inHimshallibe]

To BAB: I did give my reasoning for my vote. It was earlyish on in the Day when I voted, making the comment I felt there was a very good chance that you were scum who had been drawing a lot of attention from good Townies and bussing scum, and so I voted you. Everyone seemed to be popping up and saying something about you, or at least that was my perception as I read through to catch up.

Regarding elvis, I've made the comment that I don't think too much of her reaction one way or the other. Leaning town on elvis.

Yos2 is a good backup vote for me, and I don't like Herodotus calling for votes on Thesp.

[Herodotus]

Thesp 112 is a very strong post. It so goes against the popular options.

In what ways? The first 2/3rds looks like filler, and I don't see anything radical in the last third.

I should have clarified. In 112, Thesp says :"For the record, I don't concur with the line of thinking that says kmd3490 has made a slip with regards to the number of scum. I don't find the Xylthixlm wagon that compelling right now either. " is a very potent opinion, something town is more likely to do than scum.

Ok. I obviously agree with what he said there, but it doesn't seem like a major departure from popular ideas.

A question: In KMD's several references to a traitor, is it possible that he is trying to communicate some sort of information about the makup of the scumteam to the traitor? (I'm assuming from the role PMs on page 1 that the mafia members know who the traitor is, but the traitor only knows who the GF is.)

If you thought Elvis was scummier than KMD, then what does this post accomplish?

At the moment, I do not think Elvis is scummier than KMD. But even if I find one player scummier, I'm not going to disregard something suspicious about another player.

Why is Hero avoiding the bab wagon and voting Thesp using babscum as an excuse?

It's the other way around. BaBscum is a consequence of Thespscum. But I am now thinking this connection may be weaker than I thought.

I'm pretty sure that among the people voting him now or having unvoted him recently, there are more than one scum. I feel it best to scumhunt from among the voters.

Why do you think it is a good idea to hunt the wagon when you arent even sure about bab. Why are you not sure of bab being town or scum?

My role PM does not inform me of BaB's alignment, directly or indirectly, one way or the other. Within the thread, the evidence could go either way. He has certainly acted strangely, but I think people are playing up the degree to which his strange behavior is scummy, and he could easily be town.
If he continues to refuse to post his suspicions, though, I will definitely vote him, because a townie shouldn't be this hesitant to tell people who he thinks the scum are.

Bab, instead of hunting lurkers, make a scumlist. My vote is waiting for you, so you have max two days to change or confirm my suspicions.

This. Also, BaB, why have you not done this after many players have asked you to? That is genuinely scummy.

Tajo, I find your vote a little ironic, given that I've been pushing harder than anyone else against the popular options. But it's cool. If BaB is lynched and turns up scum, I will be prepared to explain and defend the positions I've taken today tomorrow, and the suspicion will be worth it to have a dead scum.

Preview edit:
at BaB.

[Xylthixlm]

tajo is town.

[Claus]

Ok. I'm back. I'm very disappointed at BaB's response. He is now in the "acceptable lynch" territory for me, but I still prefer a Thesp/Yos/Ikem lynch for D1.

===
@Tajo

Claus is very protective of Bab. Claus, what do you think of bab, what is preventing you from suspecting him?

I'm not as protective of Bab, as I am suspicious of his wagon. Too fast, superficial reasons. Some of the people on the BaB wagon are very scummy in my eyes (Yos, Thesp, Ikem). Some people I have a strong town read on have avoided/fought the wagon. This tells me that the wagon is either full of scum, or scum motivated.

Right now, however, I'm no longer _opposed_ to the wagon. After BaB's defense, I'm considering the idea that I am wrong. Specially the stalling/lurkerhunt, when I asked him for his opinion in the game. I still prefer a Thesp/Yos/Ikem wagon, though.
===

@BaB - It is probably useless to ask you this, but I want you to classify your wagon into "scum", "town" and "don't know". Reasons are a big plus, but if you need one week to think them up, just post the classification from gut, without reasons.

===
@Roflcopter
You keep saying I'm scum, but you have given no reasons, or asked me any questions. What makes you think that I'm scum, other than the fact that I disagree with you on who is scum?

===
I will now write my opinions on Yos/Thesp/Ikem (sorry for the delay, Yos!), and from tomorrow on I will be V/LA until the 24th - probably without net. If you have an outstanding question to me, I probably skipped it, so please post it again in 12 hours or so if you want me to answer it.

[Herodotus]

Why is Hero avoiding the bab wagon and voting Thesp using babscum as an excuse?

It's the other way around. BaBscum is a consequence of Thespscum. But I am now thinking this connection may be weaker than I thought.

Herodotus, while producing interesting stationary, is utterly confusing me. Why are you using Thesp hypo-bussing as a scumpoint against BnB?

Okay, I've been communicating poorly. It's probably partly a result of my new planned-playstyle idea. I had decided that in this game, I would try to focus almost exclusively on things I wanted to talk about, and ignore everything but my own search for the scum. Also, I was very excited to have apparently caught another player in a lie, and felt I didn't need to explain what I was thinking. A bad idea, I suppose. In this post, I'll try to explain clearly.

The majority of players have voted or said they were seriously considering voting for BaB. I think that some of them must be scum, whether BaB is town or scum. I also feel like the probability that BaB is scum is lower than the probability that we can sucessfully find one of the scum on the wagon. (Or at least I felt that way before reading post 398, which is yet more stalling, and makes BaB look scummier to me.)

After deciding that, I considered and reread in isolation some of the players who were voting for BaB. I looked at Thesp's stated reason for voting BaB, and it looked like a mischaracterization of BaB's play. I understand Thesp's reason to be:
BaB was trying to take advantage of people being suspicious of Elvis after her case on KMD.
Elvis has come up with a different way to parse what Thesp said, and if she is correct, I think Thesp will look a lot less suspicious. I'd like to hear other peoples' interpretations of what Thesp said.
Because of the above, which I saw as a misrepresentation, and because of some smaller issues that I may not have mentioned, I decided Thesp was likely scum.

After deciding Thesp was likely scum, I looked at him again to decide whether his interactions with BaB made me more or less suspicious of BaB. The two options, assuming Thesp-scum, were 'bussing BaB' or 'mislynching BaB.'
The scenario that he, as scum, was going for an easy mislynch would mean that he along with everyone else on the wagon would look scummy.
I decided it looked like bussing, instead. A bus would make the people on the wagon look good (and I'd already decided there were multiple scum on the wagon, so multiple scum would look good,) and would lead to multiple people who were not on the wagon being mislynched.
I can even believe the scenario that the entire scumteam except for one player to be sacrificed votes to lynch the sacrifice on day 1 because the townie credibility is so useful. (But I promise I'm not a DGB alt -- I was even fortunate enough to have a game with her. )

But the idea that the scumteam was mass-bussing BaB rested on more uncertainty than the thought process that lead me to see Thesp as scum. Also, aiding in the BaB lynch would just make the mass-bussing more successful. So instead of simply joining the BaB-wagon, I decided to pursue a case on Thesp.

I do not like the fact that BaB is still not posting his suspicions, as he has repeatedly been asked to do. Scum would have a reason not to do this, or at least to stall. A townie should be willing to at least post some gut reads, and maybe ask for another day or two to elaborate on them.

Sorry for the wall of text, but I think it will be worth it if people can see what I've been thinking to check it for validity and to judge me better.

[Claus]

The Triad of Evil
Or why Thesp, Ekim and Yos are bad kids and will get coal for Xmas.

tl;dr version first:

Ekim jumped on the two major bandwagons (5th and 6th vote), without a case and without commenting on anything else in the game.

Yos sat back, threatened to join the Xyl wagon when it was big (without discussing it much), then pushed and joined the biggest bandwagon (B&B) while commenting almost nothing else about the game - also Yos scum meta.

Thesp does not seem interested in anything about the game other than the BnB wagon, and yet has not improved his case on BnB from his original suspicion 200 posts ago.

I'm willing to vote on any of the above three, and will switch to the biggest wagon on them before going V/LA. I would like everyone to please tell me your opinion on each of these cases, thanks

===

Long Version:

@Ekim

The reasons for finding Ekim scummy are pretty straightforward. Ikem has lurked during most of the game, and still, managed to hop on the two biggest wagons: Xyl, on post 82 (5th vote), and BaB, on post 142 (6th vote).

On his Xyl vote, he also waved his hand at 5 players, calling them lurking scum. Which he cleared as a joke. On his BaB vote (his next vote after the Xyl vote), he makes a bunch of light questions to players, and doesn't follow up in any of those questions (although he does go V/LA 24 hours later).

Hopping on big bandwagons without contributing to the game is a pretty textbook scumtell, and the fact that very few people are pushing Ekim for it is another signal of scummyness: If he was town, I can see scum making a case on him early and go for a "righteous myslinch".

@Yos:

Yos case is more interesting, and a bit more meta based. But still (for me at least), it seems pretty clear where Yos is scummy.

First, my general meta on Yos is that he active, and make and comments on a variety of cases when he is town. When he is scum, he stays more in the wall, making posts that don't really move the game forward, and tries to avoid starting cases, preferring to join/support cases instead in early game.

And this is how I see Yos in the game. Not participating, reactive. Picking particular posts:

Yos first "attacks" someone, very lightly, on post 175, where he finds shabba scummy, and "would join" the Xyl wagon. Shabba was a low poster at that time, and Yos accusation against her goes nowhere until very recently, when he reinforces it a bit. Xyl was the main wagon, and even though Yos claims to support it, he gives no reason or participate on the discussion. He says BaB is scummy on 254 and 292 (avoiding discussing on anything else in the game), until he votes him on 308 - coincidentally, when the wagon was losing gas.

It seems to me that Yos wanted to support the wagon without joining it if possible, and join the wagon when he sees it is not possible. Quite contrary to a pro-town player who would make a case on someone, vote for him and keep pushing the wagon.

=

Something else that bothers me in Yos: I asked him why he was not contributing on the KMD/Elvis/B&B fight, Elvis did too. Xyl asked why Yos was only interested in the main wagons. Yos' answer to these questions was quite flippant. He tries to brush off at first, (234), and again on (240), saying that he got more information, but not stating what.

When I ask him about the information, he come with (289) "We got a ton of information, if KMD is scum, one of his scumbuddies is in the Elvis wagon" - Wow. That's a ton of info you got from excusing yourself from the first big discussion on D1. He says the he (289) "didn't agree with Elvis/KMD/B&B, but didn't want to defend any of them" - well, Yos could have tried then questioning one of the 17 players in the game, but he didn't do that, he just allowed the catfighting (which he didn't agree with, btw) to go on. Scum motivation: maybe a strong wagon would come out of it - and it did.

@Thesp

My case on Thesp is not as strong as the two above, and is based on a much larger amount of gut. Still, I like it enough to fully support a Thesp wagon based on it. Would love comments.

Initially, Thesp caught my attention by avoiding questions made at him (like my first few questions in the RVS), and playing with his cards too close to his chest. He is among the first to vote BaB on 112, but does explain his vote or push the case, letting his vote sit there.

A bunch of small nothings, then his post (2 days later) he finally explains his accusation on BnB, saying that he suspects him for trying to "exploit E_K's suspicion of the number of scum". At that time, I found it funny because I (and others) also attacked E_K for her "slip" attack on KMD, and still Thesp did not list us as scum, or comment, or anything like that. Also, Thesp dodges my other questions ("what do you think of Yos? and "what were your questions useful for?")

Then he disappears for another two days, makes some small comments on the game that he is not likely to follow up later, and started pushing the BnB wagon again.

I think my main problem with Thesp is that he seems to be interested in little else than getting BnB lynched. He is not commenting on the rest of the game. Not making questions/following up on them. And still, he posting enough to be seen as active and contributing - something that I feel that disappears when you look his posts too closely.

Finally, I think that Herotodus post about Thesp on 375 is quite relevant (although Hero is misreading Thesp). What I think Thesp actually means with that quote is that he suspects BnB for trying to exploit Elvis "Slip" case. Still, there is one big problem with this: 200 posts later, pushing the wagon every big post he makes, I would expect a town player to have more reasons to lynch his main suspect. Thesp does not really seem to be following the thread past a superficial level, which is quite scummy.

====

I will post a few more comments on other people in my next post (answering Yos questions about Elvis, etc). I'll post once again tomorrow before going V/LA.

[Claus]

Hey Yos!

Vote: Yos

- I would also be happy voting Thesp or Ekim. I would not mind a Xyl, E_K or SerialClergy wagon. I'll give details when BaB gets out of his ass and posts a scumlist.

You want to...like, explain any of that? Especally since Thesp, Xyl, and probably E_K are currently the 3 people who I think are very probably town here, that seems really bizzare.

I already explained why I think Thesp is scum.

During day 1 (and sometimes during early game), I usually like to classify players as "don't want to lynch/neutral/wouldn't mind a lynch/want to lynch" (or looking town/no idea/maybe scum/scummy). E_K and Xyl are in the "wouldn't mind a lynch" category.

I suspected E_K strongly a while ago, and while I think she defended herself reasonably well, I'm not completely convinced of her townhood. Yes, being aggressive is her meta, but she did misrepresent KMD. So for me she is still far from "very probably town", although I don't find her too scummy at the moment.

As for Xyl, he is all over the place (I list him as having voted/strongly attacked about 6 different people so far), without giving too many reasons. It is not a strong feeling, but I would understand a wagon on him, and wouldn't mind to see him under pressure. I find it funny that you put him as town. I would say at most neutral. What are your reasons?

So, why did you bunch up Thesp, E_K and Xyl, when it seems pretty clear that I had different level of suspicion for them?

You obviously aren't pushing very hard. I even forgot who you were voting. This is NOT consistent with your meta.

(eyebrow) It's not in my meta to vote for a lurker and leave my vote there for a while, occasionally mentioing that I'm specifically keeping my vote on them because they are lurking?

It is in your meta. Your scum meta. Specially when you don't really take your lurker vote seriously, and avoid discussing the game like you were doing earlier today. E.g. I think Town-Yos would be all over Ekim by now.

===

Out for now - if I forgot to answer any direct question, please remind me, cheers

[Ojanen]

To BAB: I did give my reasoning for my vote. It was earlyish on in the Day when I voted, making the comment I felt there was a very good chance that you were scum who had been drawing a lot of attention from good Townies and bussing scum, and so I voted you. Everyone seemed to be popping up and saying something about you, or at least that was my perception as I read through to catch up.

Regarding elvis, I've made the comment that I don't think too much of her reaction one way or the other. Leaning town on elvis.

Yos2 is a good backup vote for me, and I don't like Herodotus calling for votes on Thesp.

I get the reasoning for the vote for the early stage.
But you have given no other reasoning for the last 350 posts about why you're happy to stay on the bandwagon until L-1, except just recently "forced" about 398. " While I agree on 398 feeling bad (no content sucks, the spelling stuff feels fake and if it's humor I don't get it), getting mentioned by many people" does not seem a scumtell that would be enough reason to lynch someone.
I also wanna hear what you don't like about Yos, he was another early bad guy call from you.

[roflcopter]

claus: the basis for my conclusion that you're scum is your initial attempt to throw people off the scent of bridges and kmd. since then you've slowly, slowly come around to the position that bridges is scummy enough to lynch in a way that looks to me like "sigh. guess i'll have to go ahead and bus." that's why you remain on my list.

[Claus]

Oh, I see!

Man, you already found what, 3, 4 scum? Please teach me your scumhunting techniques after the game

Just out of curiosity. Suppose I'm not scum, who would take my place in your list?

[elvis_knits]

i feel like we're just twiddling our thumbs here. bridges screamed at us to wait and then what... went on a lurkerhunt?

we have the scumteam, folks: bridges, herod, kmd, claus, maybe username too
judging my the surety with which bridges and kmd insisted on a 4 man team, one of herod and username would be a traitor.

lets bag and tag 'em

I don't think we should forget zu faul either.

[ekiM]

@mod and others:

No longer V/LA. Will catch up tonight or tomorrow.

[Claus]

Elvis, what do you think of my cases? Am I too wildly wrong in any? Probably right in any?

[Xylthixlm]

Herodotus 404: Mmm. I like this explanation.
Claus 405, tl;dr version: I'd definitely vote ekiM. Yos2 is scummy but I recoil at the thought of lynching Yos2 on day 1. Point on Thesp is interesting if kind of weak, Thesp?
Claus 406: Hi.

[elvis_knits]

Your cases, short version:

Ekim jumped on the two major bandwagons (5th and 6th vote), without a case and without commenting on anything else in the game.

Yos sat back, threatened to join the Xyl wagon when it was big (without discussing it much), then pushed and joined the biggest bandwagon (B&B) while commenting almost nothing else about the game - also Yos scum meta.

Thesp does not seem interested in anything about the game other than the BnB wagon, and yet has not improved his case on BnB from his original suspicion 200 posts ago.

I'm not really hot on any of them, although you MAY be right. They all feel like the kind of things that are possible, and greater discussion and pressure could help to nail them down, but I am not particularly worried about any of those people.

Ekim - I was mildly suspicious of him because he seemed to disappear once people voted him. I didn't think their reasons were that strong, but the fact that he sort of disappeared made me raise my eyebrows a bit. Now it looks like he was VLA, so I can't blame him for that. It is all basically null to me, but if you or other people see something you don't like, I think it is absolutely worth it to question him, especially since I don't have a read one way or the other.

Yos - I think you're basically saying he's not being very pro-active or starting attacks/discussion. In a way, that may be true, but he was questioning BaB, and his vote seemed to stem from BaB's scummy answers, which seems natural. Overall... I say, MAYBE, although this attack is very open to interpretation. I think your meta read of Yos is pretty good -- I've seen him as scum before. But I don't think his behavior has been shockingly alike to his scum meta. Maybe mildly. I think it will be good to encourage Yos to comment on more people, nail down his feelings to help get a better read. The more we get him talking the better.

Thesp - again, someone that didn't strike me as scummy, although you may be right that he hasn't commented on enough people. Although I think this criticism could apply to any number of people, so I don't know why you are hitting on Thesp in particular. And why do you think Thesp should have "improved his case on BaB"? I don't understand that really. IMO, Thesp has sometimes been slow to give his reasons, which I don't LOVE, but I think you said earlier doesn't bother you when people do that (regarding KMD you said that I think).

Basically, these are all people that are sort of hanging out in my neutral category. I don't think it hurts to try to get more info from them, but no I am not blown away by these cases.

Claus - what do you think of iamausername, herodotus, and zu faul?

[Yosarian2]

@Yos:

Yos first "attacks" someone, very lightly, on post 175, where he finds shabba scummy, and "would join" the Xyl wagon. Shabba was a low poster at that time, and Yos accusation against her goes nowhere until very recently, when he reinforces it a bit. Xyl was the main wagon, and even though Yos claims to support it, he gives no reason or participate on the discussion. He says BaB is scummy on 254 and 292 (avoiding discussing on anything else in the game), until he votes him on 308 - coincidentally, when the wagon was losing gas.

I explained that my thoughts on Xyl in the early game in several posts, cluas. They were mixed at best, and the only thing I really had against him, as I said, was a preception that he was trying to be unreadable, which is a (mild) scum tell for experenced players. At the time, I thought that both the KMD wagon and the Elvis counterwagon were basically based on nothing; if it came to a deadline, the only large bandwagon I was at all interested in at the time was Xyl.

This has changed, by the way; I thought it was clear where I currently stand, but in case it isn't, B&B is probably scum and, if he is, Xyl is 100% guarenteed to be town; KMD is fairly likely to be scum, and I think Elvis is probably town; and shabba still hasn't said anything relevent.

It seems to me that Yos wanted to support the wagon without joining it if possible, and join the wagon when he sees it is not possible. Quite contrary to a pro-town player who would make a case on someone, vote for him and keep pushing the wagon.

No, claus. If I wanted to support or join the wagon, I would have.


=

Something else that bothers me in Yos: I asked him why he was not contributing on the KMD/Elvis/B&B fight, Elvis did too. Xyl asked why Yos was only interested in the main wagons. Yos' answer to these questions was quite flippant. He tries to brush off at first, (234), and again on (240), saying that he got more information, but not stating what.

??

What the heck makes you think that either post 234 or post 240 were either "flippant" or "trying to brush you off"?

If a bandwagon forms that I don't really agree with the reasons for, but I don't have enough of a town read on the person being bandwagoned to defend them (obviously, you only should ever defend someone if you have a strong town read on them), then the right action is to not comment on the bandwagon at all, especally on day 1. That generates more information, prevents you form getting on a bandwagon you don't agree with (which you should never do), and at the same time prevents you from defending a person who you don't have a town read on (which you should also never do).

That is exactally what a pro-town person should do, claus. And I explained this already. Why would you say I was just "trying to brush you off" there? I was explaining my thought process in some detail.

When I ask him about the information, he come with (289) "We got a ton of information, if KMD is scum, one of his scumbuddies is in the Elvis wagon" - Wow. That's a ton of info you got from excusing yourself from the first big discussion on D1.

If KMD is scum (which, at this point, I think he probably is), then the information from that bandwagon will likely make it much easier to catch his scumbuddies. The reverse is true if Elvis is scum (although I'm now pretty doubtfull of that.)

If getting the information we need needed to catch the scum isn't enough of a justification for doing the correct pro-town move there, claus, then I honestly don't know what to say to you.

He says the he (289) "didn't agree with Elvis/KMD/B&B, but didn't want to defend any of them" - well, Yos could have tried then questioning one of the 17 players in the game, but he didn't do that, he just allowed the catfighting (which he didn't agree with, btw) to go on. Scum motivation: maybe a strong wagon would come out of it - and it did.

You do realize that you are talking about stuff that happened within basically a 3 day period, starting wednesday and ending friday, right? And within that period, I was both questiong Xyl and pressuring a lurker at the same time. Is Xyl not "one of the 17 people in the game" here?

I don't understand how you can take that and think I "wasn't questioning anyone" or was "sitting back and doing nothing". By any reasonable standards, I was both very active during that period, was questioning people (actually got Xyl to admit that he was aware his own posts were unreadable, which was really interesting since that was the main reason I thought he was scummy), and I was hunting scum.

[roflcopter]

Oh, I see!

Man, you already found what, 3, 4 scum? Please teach me your scumhunting techniques after the game

Just out of curiosity. Suppose I'm not scum, who would take my place in your list?

oh my technique is easy. step 1, find a scum. step 2, spot anyone who is overly hesitant to see them lynched, especially if they're slyly directing traffic away from their wagon, or defending them on illegitimate grounds. step 3, lynch the scum and all of his/her partners.

its never worked 100% perfectly, but i don't let that stop me from acting like it will every game.

if you aren't scum then i'm even more sure that iamausername is. he's currently holding the "if there's a 5th its this guy" spot.

[roflcopter]

i feel like we're just twiddling our thumbs here. bridges screamed at us to wait and then what... went on a lurkerhunt?

we have the scumteam, folks: bridges, herod, kmd, claus, maybe username too
judging my the surety with which bridges and kmd insisted on a 4 man team, one of herod and username would be a traitor.

lets bag and tag 'em

I don't think we should forget zu faul either.

zu doesn't really seem connected to bridges. nor does he fit in my "no more than five scum" numerical model.

[Yosarian2]

Hey Yos!

Vote: Yos

- I would also be happy voting Thesp or Ekim. I would not mind a Xyl, E_K or SerialClergy wagon. I'll give details when BaB gets out of his ass and posts a scumlist.

You want to...like, explain any of that? Especally since Thesp, Xyl, and probably E_K are currently the 3 people who I think are very probably town here, that seems really bizzare.

I already explained why I think Thesp is scum.

During day 1 (and sometimes during early game), I usually like to classify players as "don't want to lynch/neutral/wouldn't mind a lynch/want to lynch" (or looking town/no idea/maybe scum/scummy). E_K and Xyl are in the "wouldn't mind a lynch" category.

I suspected E_K strongly a while ago, and while I think she defended herself reasonably well, I'm not completely convinced of her townhood. Yes, being aggressive is her meta, but she did misrepresent KMD. So for me she is still far from "very probably town", although I don't find her too scummy at the moment.

As for Xyl, he is all over the place (I list him as having voted/strongly attacked about 6 different people so far), without giving too many reasons. It is not a strong feeling, but I would understand a wagon on him, and wouldn't mind to see him under pressure. I find it funny that you put him as town. I would say at most neutral. What are your reasons?

So, why did you bunch up Thesp, E_K and Xyl, when it seems pretty clear that I had different level of suspicion for them?

Because they were 3 people you mentioned you were "willing to lynch", but they all seem most likely town to me at the moment. (E_K is clearly town, and Xyl is absolutly town if bridges is scum, which he probably is. Thesp I'm not quite so confident about, but I don't have any problems with his play at the moment.)

When someone's reads are so completly different from mine, I'll ask them about them.

I don't think it's fair to say elvis misrepresented KMD's post. I think she may have misunderstood his first post, but all she did was ask him for a clarification, and he got kind of weird in his responses; basically, his responses for why he was assuming that there were X number of scum in the game seemed to implicity admit that he was, in fact, assuming that, which was Elvis' origional suspicion of him, so she voted for him. He later said that that was because he was overtired or something, which is possible, but...eh. I don't think Elvis comes out looking bad in that exchange.

You obviously aren't pushing very hard. I even forgot who you were voting. This is NOT consistent with your meta.

(eyebrow) It's not in my meta to vote for a lurker and leave my vote there for a while, occasionally mentioing that I'm specifically keeping my vote on them because they are lurking?

It is in your meta. Your scum meta. Specially when you don't really take your lurker vote seriously, and avoid discussing the game like you were doing earlier today. E.g. I think Town-Yos would be all over Ekim by now.

I really wish the search feature was working, or I would be glad to show you examples of me leaving my vote on a lurker like that as town.

I also have no idea why you thought my lurker vote wasn't serious. I mean, granted she hadn't lurked for that long at that point so it wasn't a strong scumtell yet (not as strong as it is now, for example), but it was a serious vote.

Claus, how many times have you seen me as town?

[mith]

Mod Note:

Shabba has been prodded.

[Yosarian2]

Also, Inhim, i've been asking you to explain why you're claiming you're suspicious of me. You're actually near the top of the "people who attacked me for no reason while I was attcking shabba" list, if shabba is scum.

[zu_Faul]

For several reasons I don't have time right now to make a post with content.

I am sorry.

[elvis_knits]

i feel like we're just twiddling our thumbs here. bridges screamed at us to wait and then what... went on a lurkerhunt?

we have the scumteam, folks: bridges, herod, kmd, claus, maybe username too
judging my the surety with which bridges and kmd insisted on a 4 man team, one of herod and username would be a traitor.

lets bag and tag 'em

I don't think we should forget zu faul either.

zu doesn't really seem connected to bridges. nor does he fit in my "no more than five scum" numerical model.

He is on the vote-elvis-to-defend-kmd train. Also he keeps raining on the parade of every other wagon, while simultaneously not explaining why none of my explanations or further actions cause him to reevaluate me at all.

He should be considered.

[roflcopter]

i feel like we're just twiddling our thumbs here. bridges screamed at us to wait and then what... went on a lurkerhunt?

we have the scumteam, folks: bridges, herod, kmd, claus, maybe username too
judging my the surety with which bridges and kmd insisted on a 4 man team, one of herod and username would be a traitor.

lets bag and tag 'em

I don't think we should forget zu faul either.

zu doesn't really seem connected to bridges. nor does he fit in my "no more than five scum" numerical model.

He is on the vote-elvis-to-defend-kmd train. Also he keeps raining on the parade of every other wagon, while simultaneously not explaining why none of my explanations or further actions cause him to reevaluate me at all.

He should be considered.

you make a good point regarding his connection to kmd. since the bridges wagon took off i've been connecting exclusively to him, but when the you widen the net zu gets caught in the trap too. of course now i'm suffering from the "too many scum" syndrome.

[Claus]

Ok, I'm going on V/LA now. I'll be back on the 24th. Prolly without net in the meanwhile.

Sorry for the big post.

=====

@Xyl

Thanks for the comments. So, wanna form an Ekim wagon?

@E_K

-> So you don't mind that Ekim jumped without reasons/pushing on the Xyl and BB wagon?
-> About Thesp, yeah, it doesn't bother me when people give strong opinions without much reasoning (Rofl too). Thesp is a bit different, though, because he is basically giving his "I think he is scum" opinion in ONE person.

these are all people that are sort of hanging out in my neutral category

I see. You had Thesp and Yos as town before. Was it just my case, or something else made you see them as neutral?

Claus - what do you think of iamausername, herodotus, and zu faul?

Making a quick, isolated re-read on each:

IAUN: I can see where IAUN is scummy. His "Vote for rofl/vote for bab" thing is funny. I put him on the "wouldn't mind a lynch" list for now, in front of you and Xyl, but as far as funny votes go, I like the Ekim case more.

Needs to post more. Would like to hear

@IAUN

opinions on Yos, Inhim, Tajo

HERO: Some of his posts are weird (e.g. "Thesp is bussing BaB" and his post about "no good bandwagons" in RVS), but he is making questions, answering questions, and giving his opinion on the game. I put him on my "neutral/town" list.

ZU_FAUL: He seems pretty pro-town. I also find myself generally agreeing with his points. Unlike you said, he did re-evaluate you on 184, even saying that you were less likely to be scum because of your defense. Why do you suspect him?

BTW,

@Zu_faul

and

@Herotodus

: Agree/Disagree on each of my three cases? Would you vote any of them?




=================

@Yos

B&B is probably scum and, if he is, Xyl is 100% guarenteed to be town; KMD is fairly likely to be scum, and I think Elvis is probably town; and shabba still hasn't said anything relevent.

Ok, cool! What do you think of Ikem, Thesp and Roflcopter?

What the heck makes you think that either post 234 or post 240 were either "flippant" or "trying to brush you off"?

Well, when I ask you to comment on the big wagons you answer me with this:

I didn't comment on the Elvis/KMD stuff quite delibaratly, claus. Why do you think that's a scum move?

Isn't this dodging the question and brushing it off?

then the right action is to not comment on the bandwagon at all, especally on day 1.

I don't agree with this AT ALL. Pro-town players, if they don't have enough info about a major event going on in the game, should at least try to ask some questions to get the info they need. So if a blatantly bullshit wagon was going on in early game, on a player you still had no read on, and getting steam, would you, as a pro-town player, just let the wagon go on?

Letting a wagon you disagree with grow, without commenting on anything (without even talking to OTHER, non related players) for me is a scum action, motivated by letting a wagon grow without getting your hands dirty.

By any reasonable standards, I was both very active during that period, was questioning people

Well said Yos! Back up your claim by making a list of people you questioned between the start of the game and post 234. Then tell me you were reasonably "hunting scum" and "questioning people", and not "sitting on the background".

Claus, how many times have you seen me as town?

I have followed you as town on Adel's speed game Beta, on Alpha Centauri Mafia, and maybe a few others I read during Return to New Catania while trying to get a better meta read from you.

Yos, what do you think of my cases on Ekim and Thesp?

@ROFL

oh my technique is easy. step 1, find a scum. step 2, spot anyone who is overly hesitant to see them lynched, especially if they're slyly directing traffic away from their wagon

Well, that step 1, "find a scum", still eludes me from time to time. Mind you, I would say that I'm not "slyly" directing trafic - I'm quite strongly calling a part of the wagon scummy.

Anyway, would you comment on my cases? Suppose again that I'm town, is there anything I'm missing terribly in my accusations of Ekim, Yos and Thesp? Specially Ekim, he seems to fit "step 1" pretty easily.

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